Preseason Power Rankings, Part 2 (feat. Bill Simmons) | Group Chat

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me right before my very eyes. Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle Man. We are here in lovely Los Angeles, California, Rob's hometown. I know. The man of the people, let me show you around. Let me tell you about LA. So traffic, so weather. So it's a company town. I don't know if you heard. I'm going to go to the IV later. I got you. I got all the spots and by that I mean the 10% of the restaurants I've made it through on my exhaustive list at this point. I was going to say on the day. You gave me like a list of 20 and I don't even do I even stay remotely where you live. That was impressive. No, but you asked specifically for career town erection. Let's just say it's a robust area. Oh, there's a lot there, but you have to really be on the ground in search for it. That's what I'm here for. So we are here for part two of the preseason NBA power rankings. We did part one. So we have power. We need a drop right there. Yeah. Please. Yeah, like how do we feel like giving Justin the authority to have like a radio style drop pad? I'm just in like puts town defects and whenever he wants. I'm always down for a live sound board. But you know, actually, okay. We just look to the side of that. Yeah. So we did part one. First five teams are in the books. Part two is today starting at number 25 and going from there. Little wrinkle to today's episode. We had a special guest join us for the first two teams Bill Simmons was in the house at the sick more studios he dropped by to talk about the New Orleans Pelicans and the Memphis Grizzlies. Well, he heard that we're going to be potting about the Pelicans. Did you say Grizzlies? Yeah. I love that. Which is kind of like. They're the Grizzlies. I like it. They are like chewing on gristle. They are the Grizzlies. I think we can adopt that. You know, we can own it. Great. So why don't we take a break right now and get over that or Kyle and I talk this out real quickly. And Bill will be joining us. We'll catch you on the other side. This episode is presented by Sam's Club during the holidays. Everyone's in a club. The last minute gift givers club. The cool aunts club. The food coma club. Whatever holiday club you're in. Sam's Club is the club that helps you pull it off. Need to get a meal on the table in under two hours. Done. Shopping for the brands they want like Dyson and Lego without blowing your budget. Check and check. Sam's Club helps you make the most of the holidays. Come join us. Sam's Club. All right. We're back. We're joined by a special guest here for the first time in the preseason power. She's in the office. You guys talk of basketball. What's going on? We're not just talking basketball. We're talking about shitty teams. So especially one of your favorite shitty teams. I would say the New Orleans Pelicans are number 25 team. Wow. Is that true? 25. You got it. Do you have any? I think they've been the most fun summer team. I love Doomars' quote about you shouldn't trade just to trade. Yup. It said, well, you actually should trade just to trade when your team stinks. And you have a bunch of pieces that don't match. That's usually when you trade. But he's pretty adamant. Like, no panic here. We're fine. Question is, are they fine? If you had like asbestos or like an infestation or something, it's like somebody was like, well, you don't get rid of things to just to do it. Like, well, no, you have, you have asbestos and like an, you need to get rid of, you have bedbugs. Like, you need to get rid of some stuff. See, we say all this, but isn't trading just to trade how they got into this mess with their queen in the first place. It's kind of both, but that is the pelicans in a nutshell. So is there any hope for this team this season? We're going to get to the bad stuff in depth. There's a lot of Zion stuff. There's a lot of what is going on with the rookies behind them or the second year players. Is there any case that this team can actually be better considering a lot of these promising players we've been hoping for for a very long time? Just to now, we're sure. Look, we keep it pretty fast and loose here on group chat. We have exactly one rule. And it is never trust the pelicans. I don't know why we would change now. Like, I think to the extent that there is hope, it's like in the middle, there's some stuff here that works. You know, Siddiq Bay bringing him back on an extension, you know, don't mind that. Herd Jones. We all like Herd Jones, Trey Murphy, absolutely. And then there's like versions of this team that are young and kind of work. And there's versions of this team that are old. And I guess kind of work, but they are not copastetic at all with one another. And so what you're supposed to do with these disparate versions of the pelicans, I really don't know. It's just like a weird band where a lot of people are playing the same instrument and we're like, who's writing the songs? Where is it? What's going on with this? Like this team, but they have quality pieces that we can go through line by line. I mean, they didn't basically nothing other than adding Benedict Mathroom, which when they did that, I was like, that's the most pelicans thing they could have. It just, it just fits the vibe and the brand. But yeah, we can get through it here. Trend in Watford. Jamal Moses. I'm just getting all of this out of the way because I feel like we're going to go in depth on this. Watford is like one of those in the back alleys where you ask like really hardcore NBA fans to like, they're like, I like Watford. The voice goes up, you know? I think on our Sixers preview last year, I did that exact thing. I just, I don't have it hard anymore, you know? I was doing, I did all my prep last weekend and I actually, the, the math or anything made more sense to me than maybe it did when I heard about it because I just in my head, I thought they had 19 guys. So talk us through. What do you like about it? Well, they don't really have like a ton of wings, right? Other than the starters and bay. So it's like, you can make the case. I just, I can't imagine him being happy, just playing 15 minutes of game coming off the benches. He checked out, but I was surprised. They're, they're starting five and then basically Queen Bay, Matherin and fears coming up the bench, whatever's left with Jordan pool. The Andre Jordan's 100 years old. But it's, it's not like they have 15 guys. But the big thing is, what are you getting from Zion? Who is now? This is his eighth year. Like when they do, sometimes the NBA during the media day, they were like, Jason Tatum year 10. Yeah. Then a picture of him. I was like, Oh, like year 10, that seems like a long time. And I thought the same thing was Zion. It's like, God damn, we've been doing this for eight years now. And I have no idea if he's a star player or not. I'm glad you mentioned that because I brought up this stat. So since the NBA merger, which is a very long time, number one overall picks, who didn't appear in the playoffs through their first seven season, there have been four of them. Two of them are the two most recent number one picks. Edgy DeBonza Cooper flagger. The other one is obviously Zion Williamson. He played in the play in game. Didn't actually make it to the actual playoff. I guess the fourth. Yes. Anthony Bennett. Anthony Bennett, 2013. Because he only played for like a year and a half. That's right. They moved on from quickly. He didn't really catch on with another team. Elton Brandon, Joe Barry Carroll did it in year seven. Alokondi did it in year six. Alokondi. I wonder what his playoff team. Oh, it's Minnesota. That's right. He was on that right. Yes. Pretty well built. Well, what is he doing now? What is Michael? Is he literally where is he? Yeah. Where is Michael? Does anyone have eyes or ears on Michael? Real estate? I don't know. I got to say that was just in a truly atrocious pick when it happened. He was 24 years old and he went to Pacific University. I really wish like we had had our whole infrastructure in place for 90s NBA. Some of the decisions that were made and things that happened. Interesting that the bad drafts, like, and we think of 13 as a bad draft and people talk about 2000 as like the worst draft. It's interesting that they in those two scenarios that people were like, let's just pick, but they're like exceptionally bad first picks. It's like, right. Interesting thinking that they would take a swing and not just go with something. They take the biggest swing possible. I mean, we need the night. We've talked about the 19 draft before, but it was such a catastrophe not to get one of the top two picks that year. Remember the nicks? They got three and I was like, oh my God, another kick to the balls. I mean, well, they just won the title and you wouldn't have wanted the first two picks in this draft the way it's played out. I don't think either of them been safe bets. Zion is so different though than every other player you mentioned. It's like at the time and even in retrospect, like the talent is undeniable. He's still an incredible score. That's what I was going to pause it. I was like, Zion, he's still good. He's still stood to Odin in that when he plays, he shows something that is just never available. Even above and beyond in terms of what he showed, like Odin was still a little bit of a loose shape. We were trying to get our arms around like the best versions of Dianne Williamson. We have seen, we've seen him on the floor. It's really good. He's made it all start team. He's made a difference. It's just been a long seven years. Well, how many, how many moments in his career have we all collectively gone? Oh, it's happening right now. Yeah. Where it was like this guy, here we go. This guy could be a top 15 player and then he would just get hurt. The 2025 playing game against the Lakers. It was like, that was it. That was the moment we were all ready. We're just like, let's finally pull this thing together. It just he had to leave the game. They lose it. There was a point. Zion phase. He had two at one point early, like first three years of his career. He was like, wow, what are they? What is this line up? What do we do? Right. It's like point. Zenner, they tried them like every different version and he does well at it. The problem is it's just only last for so long because he's injured or off the core issues, which again are trickling into this season. There's just always something with him. And so brings us to a central question, which is next season. The season after this one is fully non guaranteed. Finally, we have hit the end of this Zion extension. So my question to you guys is, is Zion a Pelican on July 15th, 2027, which is the guaranteed day going into next season? What do you guys think? The bigger, I mean, that's a great question. The other question is, should they have traded him A, should another team have tried to trade for him B? And I don't know which one of those questions is more interesting. Like if you're golden state over paying porzingus 20 million a year, who's already hurt, like should you have was he a dice roll? I guess is the question. For a team that's in the in zombie land with, are we a lottery team? Not really. Are we a team? Not really. Is this the guy you should have rolled the dice with? Because I could have been talked into it. The only way I'm hesitant is that Zion like doesn't know how to be a part of somebody else's team. And it's something that's like if you're that kind of force of nature, every level of basketball he's ever played has understandably gravitated around him. You put the ball on his hands. He knows what to do. You take it away from him. He's just kind of hanging out. Like he can kind of pass. He doesn't rebound. He doesn't guard anybody. I think that's no reboundings. A big piece. It's brutal. And it's what's made it so hard for the pelicans to move on with him still here. It's like he's not physically reliable enough to be an every night star. And he doesn't have the supplementary game to make anyone else that much better. And so what do you do with a player like that? Well, on the pelicans side of it, it's interesting because they have doubles of two problematic player types. It's like they have this guy who's not a five who once you know, you can play through him. He can kind of pass it, but with queen and was on. We said that when they draft and where like these two guys are kind of dissing it together. And then you have Jordan pool and fears, which we can get to here in a minute. But I think when you said a second ago when you were talking about who he is as a player in his trademark. I think we're at an interesting point where we were talking about a pod on a pod earlier just this morning where we were talking about how we're in a market where previously, guys who were previously considered like leading men have the cap rules have kind of changed them to the point where, you know, there's not as many of them anymore. And Zion is an interesting case because I wrote this down. This past year, his see in 2324, he was at 30% usage. The following year, he was at 34. And this year, he was at 25% usage. So yeah. So I think we have reached a point where you use the word trickle. And I was going to jump in and say that culture doesn't really trickle down from Zion is in terms of like how you're building a team. It's like he's kind of his own guy. He's compartmentalized, but he can still really fucking score like he's like an ISO. Just like match up nightmare. He can really score the ball. But I think we've reached a point where if you're going to trade for him, I think the idea of who he is is a lot more sober. It's like not as optimistic of like, oh, this guy's like a franchise pillar. He's a different type of player. I think that's a big part of it. We're recording this when Trajan Langdon, his former GM is literally throwing him under the bus as an example of what he's dealing with with Jalen Duren. And so if he has established anything in this league, he is the clear cut guy. You just do not want to build around or you do not want to even deal with when it comes to a sticky situation with your extension. That's one thing. And the other thing is the contract. He's makes $42 million this season. And so who's taking a flyer one on someone who makes that much like the mind heat would have made sense before they wouldn't got honest because maybe they just establish, they bring what they have established with their culture to someone like him who's clearly talented. But like who's doing that in the second apron era, like who's even finding the matching contracts because the warriors, they really have Stefan and Jimmy Butler. You'd have to trade one of them to even match that sort of salary. So it's an impossible task. So what I think when he becomes non guaranteed, if he does let go, then I could see teams jump to the fray. But for now, it's just like, I think they're just stuck together. Is it crazy to think his ultimate destiny is to be an awesome six man for a really good team, where he just comes in and you run seven, eight minutes, a half. Yeah, I was thinking like when the bulls got the former Brian Williams, Bison, Daylay, and he was kind of overqualified to come up their bench, but he was perfect and really had a big impact on one of those playoffs. And it's weird because Zion's in this, he probably will get 30 to 35 million from somebody because people won't be able to resist. But really, he should be in the 15 to 20 million range as the super sub like kind of like porzingis. I mean, that's porzingis is basically given us the salary structure for a guy like that where it's like, man, if this guy plays all the time, it'll be awesome. And he can swing 50 games a year for us, maybe help us in the playoffs. But the example Zion ends up the absorbent culture thing is really pivotal though there. What the Celtics had this great structure where they could absorb the conditions of porzingis and be like, go on this given night, just happen to be in the finals. He was like, Oh, this guy's like one of the best players in the world. But we don't need him to be our like bedrock kind of guy. Let me ask you this question. So let's say Zion becomes a free agent. Would you rather have Zion next year or boogie cousins coming off the injury with the pelicans? Boogie cousins is another good example of this though. He showed wow. This guy's available now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With the Warriors six man, six man. But definitely didn't really put it together or really get much momentum from there. He was pretty much cooked once he got to the Warriors. But there's the time there we could have been something more. I don't know. Like boogie had shown so much more. Well, the big thing that I didn't watch enough pelicans last year to really have an opinion on this. But how much athleticism did Zion actually lose? I was pulling some of the quit. I don't know if we're talking like GOP. I don't know what the cause is, but he had to go. Well, I was saying his like, that's the thing they stopped playing through him, but he could still fucking like score like crazy. He was way too fast. His first step and his ability get to the rim felt like it was still there. But the high school stuff of him just jumping over dudes, that's gone. But I thought he was really good as a small ball five last year. And so that's where it's like, how do you leverage the speed he does have? And that's where again, you're counteracting it with, okay, but he can't defend the rim. Oh, but he doesn't rebound for us. So like, it's just so hard to pencil him in as someone you rely on in a way that the boogie cousins thing makes sense because even if boogie had totally flamed out with the warriors, they would have been fine. And like, is Ion needs a situation like that? But in order to have it, he would need the epiphany to realize that he's not this guy anymore. Well, the fun part about this team is they have a lot of players I like. I thought fears was good last year for young, you know, smaller guard rookie, which is really like bust, your bust delicious at that point. We just saw it with Dillon Ham. It's really, we, Kyle and I were talking about this the other day we were texting about it like these guys that just are D.O.A. when they come in the league, these small guards, you immediately know they don't have it. But I think fears has it. I thought he was good last year. And then, you know, Murphy, everybody loves Herb Jones. They have some good bench guys. So you can kind of see it, but it's, it feels to me like more of fantasy team than a basketball team that makes sense. Are you a queen guy? I am, but not on a team with Ion that makes those two guys together makes zero sense. But I do think queen something. Yeah. I defensively, it's never going to be there for him. And maybe fears in Murray can't play together either. And so it's like, I, I thought the before and after Dillon came back was a real moment for the Pelicans, where a lot of things just kind of short up instantly having him available, even in limited form is pretty good. So like, I kind of understand wanting to see that through to some kind of conclusion, but where does it take you? It just, they're not going to be competitive and competitive enough in the West. He's not going to be enough to lift up their younger players. They're just, they just feel stuck in so many ways. Really hamstrung by two trades. They shouldn't have made one was the Murray trade, but he did get hurt. And then the McCollum pool trade is just one of one of the all-timers. Just the exact trade you never want to make in this second apron era of trading and expiring who's the better player in the deal. And taking somebody back who's the worst player in the deal and has a longer contract. Like that's an insane trade. And to not get a first round pick or anything. Nobody does that. McCollum's known around the league is like, it just, like I use that word again, like he's just a can't fail, like bedrock culture guy, like the established. And it's like, you really, really need that. And it's, I can imagine, even though I don't understand Joe Dumas in myriad ways, I can imagine why he would be a little contancorist about like moving pieces because that's all we do is talk about like, like just offloading their good players that they have. And he's just like, I can see you at some point where he's like, screw you guys, we're not going to do it. But maybe you should do it. Maybe bringing engine ball mostly and handing him this mess is not the way to fix it. Well, the scuttle button that there's two things than the league scuttle but when people gossip about these different teams. One is that that trade weavers involved in this team and he's a huge DMV guy and always gravitates toward DMV guys, which is how you end up with queen, how you end up with pool, all this stuff. The other one is that the culture on this team was a classic people talking about, oh god, those guys they hate each other. You never know it's true or not true. But oh my god, you want to talk about bad chemistry last year, the pelicans and just a lot of whispers. And I'm always when I hear this stuff, I, you know, you take it with a grain of salt. But when you keep hearing it, it's usually not a good side. Yeah. I remember the good old days when it was Ryan Anderson. Sure talking about wasn't a good locker room guy. And so 10 years later, here we are. Right. Man, throw them under the bus. Now it's just half the players on this roster. Now it's at the way everyone looks at Jordan pool. Yeah. Did we take inventory of queen or do you want to get to that or just because they're rookies. I think this is a gigantic like a lot is riding on what for your shows this year. Naturally. Sure. It's kind of okay. But queen, man, like for the frustrations that we talk about, and I wrote about this in the draft guy that a couple of years ago, we were talking about queen, it's just like dude, like his attention to detail and technique. Like he has got to fix it. Like I was, I was just watching him come, like he had like Zion close out syndrome where he would like run. He's not a super. He has great hands. He has good feet, but he's not super fast. He doesn't jump super high. And if he doesn't pay, he has to pay attention to technique. Like I was watching him close out on guys and he would just be standing straight up. And like they'd just be like, okay, like I like I watched a few clips of Josh Giddy just blowing by him and just not not paying attention on like the glass and things like that. Like he's supposed to put that on his real though. I'm just saying like queen just has so many like technical things that he has to shore up if he's going to end up being a productive long-term player in the NBA because he just doesn't have that margin for error. He's odd how they've ended up with two guys who are basically small ball centers. as like the one that they have to build around. I think this is like why Herb Jones matters so much to this team because he's the only one who wants to do the shit and they list him as their starting center, which before I was like, oh, this is a real funny math sort of thing. They're just trying to give him a nod because actually Zion or these other guys are the actual centers. But he actually has to play in guard a lot of bigger players because these guys cannot do it. - I've gotta come on. I heard Andy Daly one time, the pelicans are like mad TV. I heard Andy Daly tell a story one time where he said Andy Daly, the comedian, really the classic character guy. He said that that show was hard to be on because everybody wanted to have catch phrases and characters and bits and he said, nobody wanted to be the straight guy. He said, so he just did that and he got in like every sketch. To me, that's the pelicans, that's my comp. Andy Daly, to Herb Jones. - This is why Deandra Jordan does a job. Like, he's the one straight guy who's like, you know what, my job here is to get Dare Queen out for a workout at 5 a.m. and that's literally it. Like, I am a functionally an assistant coach, but this team needs guidance and channeling and you're so right about Queen's habits. Like, he's just such a spacey, on-court player in a way where you would love to believe in him but he's more fun than he is good right now. - It's funny speaking of weird analogies. They have two guys on this team that remind me of like if you ever had an apartment or like, I remember about a futon, this 30 years ago for my apartment in Charlestown. - And it seemed like a great idea and we got it and didn't really have the money to then be like, oh, this was a mistake, got to make this futon work and it just was never comfortable and you just kind of have to sit in and every day and go. All right, I guess this is the decision we've made. Doesn't really fit in this room. It's a little too small, but what else are we gonna do? And they, Queen and Zion are both like that. It's like, well, Zion, he's here. But these are guys you have to customize your entire offense and your identity around but they're not gonna be winning players in that. So what do you do? - All right, new content idea. As we're iterating, not futon guys. We get build, we have this tape now. We cut it off at Bill saying, so I bought a futon that we bring Van Lathen in here and he has to guess where you're going with the analogy. - What year it was? - In which pelican it's applying to. - There was a big futon run in the 90s. I don't know if it's still going. - Oh yeah. - The markets were bust. - It's the futon satisfaction rate. - Facebook marketplaces, all futons. - You have guys sleeping over all the time after nights out. - You need to put them somewhere. - That's the thing. - It was like, oh, he's coming in. My buddy Bish is coming in. He'll sleep on the futon. But it was always a better concept in the store. And I think Queen is like that to me. Queen is like, great concept in the store. But shit, now we gotta play 82 games with them. - It's great and I can't. - I do like him. - Yeah. - He does a lot of, yeah. - I have great watching him. - Brilliant. If he's aged, then he had that match begin to yoke and for people who were like, Jesus, like he's coming. - It's just, he's gotta just be more consistent. - Yeah, the second your guy fears. I like him. I'm curious where he fits in. Not only in the league at large, but also on this team. Is he just relegated to the six minerals along as Dejante is gonna be there? - I think Dejante is too good to give it up for now. I think honestly, weirdly enough with fears, the thing I'm most optimistic about is he has that weird little like rock back, almost like one-footed mid-range jumper that's like, okay, as far as like change of pace, ways to keep defenses off balance. Like he has just enough of those weapons where I'm like kind of buying into it, but that's the kind of thing where you need to give him more of an opportunity to explore and then who's gonna play with his pace? - Who have we seen that with his type of body and game that's succeeded? - That's the tough part is the like the size 'cause it's almost like, you know, like Gordon Hayward had that kind of weird rock back jumper too. It's like bigger, Steven Jackson, like bigger wings tend to do it. But for him, it's almost a way to escape from the defense more than it is to manipulate if that makes sense. - I really liked him. - I also really liked how competitive he was. But that was the big takeaway. Like he, you know, these rookie guards come in sometimes that he can beat up. He was coming in like, oh cool, I get to play SGA tonight. I was like, what's going on with this guy? - He wanted to fight everyone. - Yes, his speed and body control and he like, I think he can map the floor. I know that's a nerdy thing that people's eyes glaze over, but he seems like he's pretty aware of spatially like where his teammates are and makes creative passes. He's like a creative ball handler. Really weird this team. This team I wrote it down. They were, let's see, 27th and three pointers made, 25th and attempted. They were first in points in the paint. So this is just a big battering ram of a team. - Yeah. - That has just kind of roll confusion that, you know, with everybody healthy and everything, it just doesn't seem like it's going to get any simpler. - You know what's weird about this team? And I'm sure you did this when you did 26 to 30, but there's just four West teams that aren't going to be good. And in the old days, you always knew what that meant. And I don't know what that means now. In the tanking doesn't matter anymore era. And you don't actually want to be in the last three era. So like the Pelicans were 10 and 20 in their last 30 to end this season. And I wonder is that, is that going to foreshadow what happens with some of these bad teams? Where it's like, well, why do we have to tank? What are we tanking for? Let's try to win tonight. - We talked about this in the previous episode of team suppressing their win totals in order to tank. Like the net, some of these Pacers, they could have been a little bit better, right? I think the Pelicans, I docked them for the exact same reasons. If we're saying that institutional, like know how in organizations matter, the Pelicans actually take a step back because they have the worst organization in probably modern sports. - And so the anti jazz in that way. Like the jazz have like 20 back paid wins over the last couple seasons for exactly this reason, but you're right, the Pelicans. - Well, home courts tough. They always have the worst training medical in the league. They never ever roster, they make sense, and they never have a good front office. - Well, usually those are all obstacles. - They did change their medical and training staff. - Finally. - So better late than never, hopefully it makes a difference. Zion is, you're gonna be shocked to hear this in the best shape of his life. We'll see if that makes a difference. - He did look good. - He showed up to the podium and he was felt, but he also said, I'm not where I want to be. I'm just not where I need to be, where I want to be. - How do you interpret that? - He said he wasn't where he wanted to be twice. - Three. - He's usually too many times. - That's hell-time. - Literally too graphically. - Yeah, is that the Eric Blitz? So I don't want to be here anymore. Like cryptic message out into the void. - The crazy thing is, I think if it was anybody else, we would have read into it like what Machiavellian thing is he playing here where he wants to get to another, I think he just realized that his career has just completely been a catastrophe. - Completely. - Which is a sadder outcome, I would say overall. - And again, I think yet another reason why, whether it's trade or ending up like cutting him out right with the non-guarantee at the end of the year, like I think everyone just has to move on. Seven years is too much time. We've had three Spider-Man movies since Zion Williamson was drafted. That's too many. Old Town Road was the number one song when Zion Williamson was drafted. We can't be doing this again in one more year. It can't happen. - But he wasn't a bust, but he wasn't a success. - No. - That's a really weird territory to be in. And a lot of players, you're almost like in like basketball reference purgatory, people go there and like, wow, look at his per 36 in 2022. It's incredible, you know, like 50 years from now will probably be appreciated more. But too bad. - I don't know why a team that doesn't have anything going for him wouldn't take the poll. Like, what are the nets doing? Or is there any team with cap space that could just spend it? - What are the nets doing? It's just like a question of no test. - Oh, you missed that one. - We spent half an hour trying to figure it out. Yeah, not quite sure. - Well, I will say as a Celtic fan, fed by this pelicans team for a while because of the pool expiring. - Sure. - Herb Jones. - Many teachers sell a lot of things from my life. - Paul George, is there some sort of Paul George? You get the pool expiring, but you really get Herb Jones. You give a pick like could that be the destiny for the Celts? I have no idea. They seem to love Paul George. - We'll see how that goes. - Yeah, we'll see how that goes. - I like Paul George a lot, I'm on that. - Selfie. - Yeah. - The medical staff. - We'll see how it works out. - One of the better catch and shoot guys in the league. - Paul George is good. - You stretched your arm. - Just here to be on Tatum's team. Very clear about it. - You should get to the basket. - I give this ad was paid for disclaimer when you start talking about Paul George. Do you have to warn the people? - I've been open about how long it took me to talk about something in the trade, but it's been pretty easy lately. - Yeah. Here's from your organization. They did just really like having them around. - There we go. It's great. - Have you switched on D? - Yeah. - Yeah, looking good. - Who's next, Memphis? - Memphis. - Oh, I'll stay for Memphis then I'll go. - Okay, let's do it. Number 24, the Memphis Grizzlies, who have so many guys. They have so many guys that as we're recording this, they might have already had to cut one or two of them. They're about three to four deep at virtually every position. And so I want to say that there's something workable here. They're the type of team that I could see them exceeding their overrunner, if only because there's just so much to work with if they get injured or whatnot. There's just guys ready for them. Having said that, I don't know if like this is the year for them to make a play and run, but I like that they're half step away from the John Mariant, Jaren Jackson era. It's put them in such a good position so quickly. - I think there's just too many kind of met teams in the West where if there were a little clearer runway, I would buy everything about like, oh, they could overperform. Oh, they could maybe make the play in. But this is a weirdly crowded space as we've been talking about like the top of the West is set. The middle tiers of the Western Conference are so weird, so like all lacking in their own way. And the Grizzlies are among the least of them, but also as you say, stack to the point that I'm really worried that some of these guys who I really like just aren't gonna play at all. And that's gonna be the reality of the regular season. - Who are the guys you really like that might not play at all? - Like, I think some of the guys who had a chance last year and finally started showing something. Taylor Hendrix was like a cast off from the jazz and was nice, Oh Max Prosper started putting it together, had a nice run for them, but it's like, those guys aren't gonna play. If Zach Edie is here and healthy, if I say a steward is here and playing, like there's just not gonna be enough room for them. - I have a feeling. I mean, I texted Zach and I was mad at him 'cause he beat me to this. I'm buying the Grizzlies. I mean, this isn't like-- - But what does that mean? I could see him win in 35, 40 games. Is that crazy? - I mean, I think that's possible. We're talking about like going from chaos to order. I think that Booser, I'm a broken record about this at this point. I just think that's who he is. He's gonna come in. He doesn't have to come in and be like a crazy high-production guy. He's just gonna establish an orbit and a sanity the way that they play and I think that we've seen guys that you were talking about like getting lost in the shuffle. I think Jalen Wells and Gigi Jackson, just like who was a prospect at one point, who had a good rookie year based on where he was taken. He suffered, I think, from some of the chaos of the transition of Eras. I think that once their order has kind of locked into place, I think that's gonna be good for him. Jalen Wells, like I was saying, Kim Spencer was one of the best, he's gonna benefit a ton from this. I wrote this down, he shot, Let's see, in Picknerville, he was 41.5%, spot up, 45, in transition, he shot 45%, off of screens, he was 52.5% from three. The student is lethal from three, and I think that catching shoots, he's gonna benefit and throw on top if they're really big, they're just gonna pulverize people, send your cowards gonna benefit. I just see a net positive with this team where I think they're gonna be better than people. I just cue you talking and I see the version of myself I'm trying to check. You're the devil on my shoulder being like, pick the Grizzlies to win 40 games. I'm like, I just can't, I can't do that. I think they're gonna be annoying a shit. That's what I think. You know why that's not true, what you just said? What's that? Because I am the devil on your shoulder. I fucking love this team. I'm all in, I'm all in on one team. I'll just spoil when I do the over-unders with House and Zach, but I love this team. I think they're gonna be good. Like I really think as a good young team, I think if Edie stays healthy and Jerome stays healthy, I think this could be like a 38 to 40 win team. Like they have an identity. The players make sense to me. The boozer's gonna come in right away and be like a 19 and 10, 19 and 9, 20 and 10 night after night. I love Coward last year. I like their young guys, but even just getting steward for free is fucking nuts. That guy was a really good bench player in a 61 team. And-- - He's a falter on his punches, but he's-- - Yeah, but if they get, I don't know what's realistic for Edie, and I don't know if he can stay on the court. But if they can get an actual Zach Edie season, I think this team, so I was looking at the, the Fandole, the conference sides, right? And you go, and you could just go from the bottom up of who they think the worst teams are, which is basically Sacramento, Clippers, Grizzlies, Pelkins, Dallas, and Utah. I think they're gonna be the best of those six. I have them over Utah on my head. - That's the one that raised my eyebrow. I feel like Utah's pretty, like-- - Yeah, Utah's obviously got talent. - Higher end talent, I would say, versus the depth of the Grizzlies. - No defense. - And then I like, and honestly, I like both Utah and Memphis more than Phoenix. - Yes. - And I don't think Phoenix, I think Phoenix is gonna be a mess. But I thought that last year. But I think Memphis makes sense to me when I look at it. We'll see with the coach. But I think the city's gonna really respond to it. Chris Vernon, who I think is always a good barometer, and we need to talk to him about this stuff. Like, it couldn't be more bullish. And usually he's little like me with the salts, like pretty realistic. He'll be like, I don't know. But he's like, we have something with this group that we have guys that we have. - Sneaky thing too is, we were talking about, somebody corrected me. It's hypertrophy, not atrophy. When do you work a muscle to failure? Last year. - I would clear that up. - Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. No, coward last year in the chaos and the absence of, like Marant, it was a disaster. He got pushed into playing more point guard than he had ever played in his life, basically. So he got that experience in year one, and he's a hyper, we always talk about testing guys to failure and can your confidence withstand that. Cowards, one of those dudes that I think is gonna come away from that experience learning a lot. And I think that this year his role is gonna be a whole lot different. And I think he and Boos are together as they can screen for each other. It can go either direction. And I just think they're gonna be a really fun duo. So I just think that he's gonna come away from last season being like a more well-rounded player. And you could tell he wants to get back. He played all of summer league, Coward. And it was just like why? - No, he's got him and Murray Boyle's same thing. Like those guys clearly are gonna go up a level in the next second year. - So I think Edie and Jerome are the guys that will be the kind of stability forces for everybody else there. - Stabilitating. - Well, I mean, Stabilitating, I like that. - We're innovating. - We're just trying things here. - Edie on track for the open. Ty Jerome, where does he stand in terms of like the pageant of nerd crushes? - Well, we're gonna get, he's getting to drive the car this year 'cause they don't, they're point cards. It's basically just him and Pippin, right? - I mean, Pippin's pretty great though. - Yeah, but it seems like Ty Jerome's starting. - I think Ty Jerome will start. - You got a lot of guys who could do some ball handling. Coward and Booser and some of the other big guys. But like he's the only one who's gonna be operating the pick and rolls. And so if you look at like his 15 games last year, which is all he played, unfortunately they happened all toward the end of last season. They're like incredible. - Oh yeah. - It's like 26 and 3 into like the per 36 minutes or like he's basically, will combined. - And it was incredible on the calves. - He was. - Then just died in the playoffs that one year and it kind of threw him off the sands. - That's the thing. And so he's really hard to place as far as how people feel about him because the premise of Ty Jerome is, what if a small guard just hit every tough shot he ever took? - Right. - When it goes, it fucking goes. And when it dries up, it's like he has absolutely nothing to offer you anymore. - That overburdened those playoffs though. - Completely. - Yeah. - I think there was a sweet spot here. Like this is the right kind of team for him, right? Like a deeper team, good supporting cast, good support system in terms of a backup point guard behind him who's like similarly skilled in certain ways. I think he's gonna have a lot of cover with the Grizzly. - We didn't mention one guy that I think is important. And this happens every year in the NBA and he's the guy this year. The guy who's been expensive for a couple of years. - Is this Jeremy Grant's music? - Oh yeah. - Oh, we totally didn't even mention him. - No, it's like he's been expensive. You write him off, wait too much money. He's in trade rumors for three years. Somebody ends up with him. He's still like a rotation NBA guy who's been around the week. I think he averaged like 17 or 18 a game last year. And he's just like, that's 30 minutes a game. It's like, I remember Harrison Barnes got to this point at one point Tobias famously in Detroit. It's like, oh, and then they have Tobias Harris. It's like, yeah, Tobias Harris isn't bad at basketball. And he's gonna play. If you reframe who he is, you're in exchange. - So if you had him for nine million a year, you'd be like, oh, and they have Jeremy Grant. But at 36, it seems like an amatrust, but he's not. He's gonna play real minutes for them. - The problem with Grant is, he started his career at one spot. He was actually just like the bouncy center of like the process sixers. - Yeah. - Became the ultimate 3-in-D guy, thought that that was just gonna be his role for the rest of his career. And now has become basically a six-man shot maker. Like his role with the Blazers toward the end there was just the chute. Like he really didn't rebound aton. The defense kind of went and came in and went. - Didn't know it seemed happy. - Yeah, just what got left on a team that was going more into the tank. And so like he's a great vet. I think he is a good score, but it's so odd to rationalize like what role is he? Because if he just plays the role that he was destined to, this 3-in-D guy where he was with Denver, like he'd still be pretty good at it. 'Cause he has the dimensions and he's very smart on the core. It's just, I think he's gonna probably be the six-man. - Well, you know the answer 'cause you live there. - How many points do you think he averaged last year? - It was quite a bit. - I didn't in front of me, so you got to answer 'em. - 18? - Yeah, it was 18.9. And then you go back, he averaged 22 in the 21st season. 19, 2021, like they basically got him for free. And that's like, I don't know, I like this team. I think, but it's like, you know, Eden can get her, Jerome gets her, the team falls apart, it's very conceivable. - Well, I think, again, he has a place in this team where there's so much going on. He doesn't have to be the, like, a leader of the offense in the way that the pistons, one time asked him to be, or even the, like, Lynch pin defender, he was for the nuggets. It's like, he gets to just be a guy. And as a guy, Jeremy Grange is very good. As the guy, or a critical part of your team, I think he leaves you a little bit wanting. - I have a Kyle question. Is Boosir clearly the rookie of the year pick? - Oh God. - Or would you, or is there somebody else who thinks gonna have better stats in a better season than him? - You can kind of see. - Is Peterson would be maybe the other one? - And you can see down the road how this could play out is you're gonna get like a production. I could see this turning into, and not that everything doesn't already do this, but turning into an analytics conversation where the, I think he's gonna drive winning in a not production heavy way that's like really easy to point to, where you might. Of course, the Bonsa's gonna be, you know, we're gonna talk about it. He's in a really weird position where if they didn't, hadn't made the moves they made, I would have been like, yeah, the Bonsa's gonna average, 20 something, and yada, yada, yada. I would pick him. - 'Cause Caleb would be the other one. 'Cause I'm not allowed to bet on this, but I'm fando, boozer's three to one. Caleb's plus three 30, and Peterson's plus three 15, Bonsa's four to one is the fourth best odds, which I was like really surprised by, 'cause it felt like he was another one. He was gonna come in right away and be 17 and 18 and seven, whatever. - Well, there's like $212 million for trade young standing between him and that, I think. - Yeah, that's gonna, that's awesome. - Caleb's the one, Caleb would be the wild card bet where Caleb could just come in, and he might just be, he might own social media, like Blake's first clipper year. - Oh god. - Remember, as Twitter videos were kind of happening and Blake just kind of was there for three straight months? I feel like that might happen with him. - Was it Galenari that he dunked on like six times in one game or in his rookie year? I think it was Galenari. - I think it was Galenari. - It was a Mazgaugh, there was a couple of games. - Kendrick Perkins, we're gonna get one of those games from Caleb. That was the most fun I've ever had going to non-self the games. The Blake's first year when he just, all he wanted to do was dunk on anybody. And they would just put the ball like near the shot clock to see if he could get it in. It was just, he had ups like there's been nobody like him. I remember driving out to LA during that time to move here for the first time. And there would just be like kind of a buzz. This was before Twitter or anything like that. Yeah. You would just like want to check in and know what he was doing. Well, and behold, he would have dunked on someone that night that you missed it and you just felt like you missed the biggest thing in the year. I thought you're going to see the streets were buzzed about like Alfa Rukamino. Like, the chief, the baby clippers are really putting it together. It's fun times. What's boozer's role in your one, like what do you want to see from him? 35 minutes again. He's going to be there hub, I think. When you were talking about Grant, I was saying, I think what's going to benefit Grant is that you're going to, you're initial part of your act. I don't know that they're going to be super picking roll, roll heavy, that's why I don't know that that's good. That'll be a wrinkle of what they do. I don't think so. I don't see the little ones to do that. I don't think their guards are going to be super picking roll heavy or depending on in that way. I think you're going to play through boozer who can run some picking roll himself. He can play some handoff stuff and then attack one on one matchups and then that's the first part of the clock, I think for them, that's going to be their method. And then when you get into the late part of the clockwork, we didn't get a great shot. That's where you haven't a Jeremy Grant. I think it's going to be valuable, but I'm not going to bet against him being the, like, the central hub that drives winning until, I'm not going to bet against that until I see that. I think he's going to do it because he's just got such a great foundation. I think he can get a lot better too. I was writing down just like with all these players, who are the combinations I'm most excited to see together and they like all have camp boozer in them. It's just him, like, the way he plays off of Zach Edie, I'm fascinated to see Isaiah Stewart, like, they could be an awesome big man comp, like combination. I think what he could bring out instead your coward in terms of making his life easier as a creator. I mean, the shooting from camp Spencer's like, all of these guys make sense with camp boozer, which is not what you would think of basically any other rookie to come in the league. That's another thing I like about this team is they have different looks, which is pretty rare for a bad team because that ultimately I think crunch time, they probably have Stewart with, with coward with boozer with Grant in probably Jerome, which is a five minute unit with size and, like, some real defensive things. The rim protection numbers on Stewart are great when he actually plays. But then they also have this Edie boozer lineup where it's like, we're just getting rebounds and we're overpowering you and we're going to be around the rim that I think a lot of teams are going to have trouble with. So I do like that they insulated him with so many biggs and they decided that we are going to be huge because they have Edie, you have beef stew, you have quittin' posts, who I don't think we mentioned. Boozer. That was a fun contract. That's right. I like how they structured that. They really kind of stuck it to gold state. Yeah, it was like the rare actual like put some thought into the RFA. Got cream Lopez. There's just like so many, actually there's just list guys for 20 minutes on this team. Is it crazy to wonder if this team can make the playoffs as soon as next year? I don't think it's crazy at all. I really don't. I really don't. We're not this season but next year. Yeah. We're too high on it. It's not even hot. We're so, yeah, organizationally hot on them. It's crazy to think because the players are playing because I think they could be a play in team this year. Yeah, yeah. How do you think so? I was saying that the Kings had so much chaos with Russ, just having a road map is the hardest thing to do in the NBA is to be like, okay, we have this thing that we know is this amount of efficiency every time we come down the floor and I feel like the Grizzlies, I'll be surprised if they don't. I mean, we're all kind of expecting it at this point where it's not even a hot take. But I just think that that's why I think they're going to be ahead of schedule because I think this is an important convo though because they're over under right now is 50 is it 50? I'm sorry, 30. I'd take the old one. It's like 29.5, 30 range. I can't see Kim Booster being on a bad team. I just can't see that. We have them 11th in the West in these rankings just outside the plan. Mavericks are right above them. All right, so question. Why do you like Phoenix more than this thing? I have my head if it gets because they proved it last year that they'll play hard at the very least. But what do we like about Phoenix? There are already like decimated at center, they're going to have to play the duke a ton. They have Miles Bridges being just randomly thrown into this team. They lost shooting. I don't know what to expect from them. They have Jalen Greene for the full year, trying to play for basically like a bigger ride. I don't know. I have more questions about that. I think the formula is just simpler where they have Devin Booker who's like worlds better than anyone that's currently on this Grizzlies roster in terms of where they are today. And they had a top 10 defense last year, which that may or may not be the case. I think we should definitely get into that, but who are the Grizzlies, right? If they're going to make a run at the play in the season, if they're going to be a really good team pretty much out of the gate, are they where are they above average? Like do you see them being a functional offense? Do you see them being a hard opponent? I think they're going to be really, really physical in a way that is hard for teams to deal with during a six weeks, six months season. Yeah. I think they're like, oh shit, we're playing these guys. This is going to suck. They're going to bludgeon people. Yeah. Those clotheslines, bang, jumping in your back, you just know it's going to be like a tough night. Because they even want to be like, they don't have enough shooting to complement the size. These guys were not even talking about Cedric Howard, Dylan Wells, like they have these guys in place to play those sorts of roles. They didn't even talk about Wells, really. Like before he got hurt. Yeah. Just looking like he was a possible someday Aldi guy. I don't know. I like this. He's had great moments, but also some kind of low points for Jalen Wells. I think I'm like, I was really hoping his career would take off. I think I'm a little slightly more pessimistic on Cedric Howard than y'all might be. Just in the sense that he's already way ahead of the age curve. I think there is, like, let's just get to the biomechanics. Let's break it the fuck down. There's a stiffness to the way he moves in place. Oh fuck you. I'm sorry. That makes me like wonder, okay, is he ever going to be a primary offensive option? Stiffness. Yeah. Absolutely. He's got that kind of lumber. Learning length, like he, like, has the coat rack in the back. Kinda like koai. You turn your nose up at stiffness, but the first word out of your mouth is lumbering? No. It's a weird thing where if you watched koai, koai has the similar kind of a thing. This is the problem. Like, koai has poisoned everyone's brains into thinking that anyone can be koai and he's going to be koai. Koai is like a one of three player in NBA history to perform that way with that body type and that movement type. I'm just saying if you went and you watched the clips of Cedric move, like, he gets low with his dribble. Yeah. I just think he has a lot of limb for his body type, but I think he likes that. I have real estate on Patrick Williams Island. I would like to sell him. I like him. It just doesn't feel like he's filled out even at this stage of his career and he just has such an odd trajectory. I can't think of another guy like him where he starts from such low levels and then when he hits, like, he gets injured and then doesn't even get to go play for Duke. Like, he literally hasn't played high level college ball and he just immediately graduated to the NBA. That's the crazy thing. Is he nearly played with Booz? Yeah. I just got a little chill. I think about that. Campbell's are 20 plus points of game this year plus 420. They picked the right number. It's intriguing, but he'll be around 17 to 22 every game. He's just one of those guys. I think the question with him is are we positive he's going to play like 35 minutes or is he going to be in that like 28 minutes a night range just because I don't think that dude's ever not played most of a game in his life, right? Like since 6th grade, he's been, I just think that's what he's used to. They're going to be. I'll pro. Kobe, texting counter in the air with Mahoney on it. Yeah. Mahoney. Said you coward. Another Memphis win. 27. Every time said your coward puts up 30, I'll be thrilled to eat it out of it. The co-wracked himself. I think so. I did it again. Triple double. To clarify, I think said your coward is a guy. I just don't know that he's like a starring piece of this team. One other piece that we didn't mention this team if they actually turn out to be pretty good in point cards, the deepest position in the league for available guys. Like would they get a little frisky because they have some picks. Yeah. Right. Could they be like, ah, we'll take that guy. He's available or jumping in on somebody. They have a lot to work with now. And in fact, they might be the model for some of these other distressed teams in terms of what they got for Jared Jackson, Jr., what they got for Desmond Bain. Like, they have something to work with here between all of this talent we've been talking about and also all those picks that came in the door like they can, they really have a run away to make something of this. And they went, I think three for 27 of the last 30 and are basically the poster boys for why we're going to have this whole new system in place. Like they don't get enough credit. They traded. They were basically a playoff team, trade Jackson, trade Bain, tank all of last season. It works out. They get boozer. Yeah. And now they're in a great spot. And it was all worth it. And that's like the thing that Adam Silver's like, I don't want this happening anywhere. They wanted boozer too. Oh, from the Memphis people I talked to, like they were giddy that it, that it fell the way that it did. Yeah. Cause he's an adult whose dad was a player who isn't going to be like, I don't know, Memphis is too small. Like he's like, I'm in. Great and grind. Let's go. The Marcus Hall vibes are definitely there. He has that temper, men. He will have that effect. Have we talked sufficiently around your existential question? We literally named every guy in the roster. We did. But we never even said what the question was. It was who's the breakout guy that we talked about that in 20 different ways. Indeed. I'm sure you were satisfied with our performance. I think I was just thinking of annoying this team is going to be in like second chance off this bike. Just you think about the length and fluidity and mobility and athleticism of Cedric coward flying in like and flying boozer and he they're just going to be they're going to be annoying. I also really like Pippin and he's one of those guys where he was like, why does this guy play more? I watch basketball at the time. Yeah. Why isn't this guy play more than 15, 20 minutes? He's just hurt. He has to get hurt a bit. I think that's the question with so many of these guys, is just, will some of the depth resolve itself? if Zach Edie doesn't stay healthy, if Isaiah Stewart doesn't stay healthy, if Scottie Pippin doesn't, like there's just so many of those ifs kind of stacked on top of each other that there might just be a national peck going pecking order that develops based on who's healthy. So you got 20 minutes on Walter Clayton Jr. before we go here. A genuinely yes. Okay. Is Edie at least on first team on BA if he can stay healthy to see the center? I would still take Donovan Klingy over him. I think he's way better than him. Kessler, don't talk to Laker fans about Kessler's durability and played five games last year. Don't bring that up. I know he's like three jokes about Zach Edie, but like he changes games like he said before and he changes. I'm not joking. He's literally when he plays, he's imposing and I think the combination he's never there. He's never there. But cleared for the start of the season. They have said from his ankle surgery in March, hopefully that holds the combination of him being such an imposing force and boozer being so savvy, working as the hub of the offense, helping to connect dot, just like helping read the floor. That's a really enticing comedy. He doesn't. Edie does not pass the Bill Simmons watching somebody run in person, feeling good about a test. A.K. The Greg Odin corollary. Yeah. It's tough. It's proprietary. Yeah. When you see big men, I really pay particular attention in watching them just not sprint up and down on a fast break, but just how they run during the course of a game, like after free throws and he's one of those that just feels like a lot of weight. But once he gets there, what do you do is thanks be nervous. He makes me nervous. He's a dick in the championship game against Yukon. He was a dick. Never forgave him for it. Yeah, he was just like talking shit and then they won. Of course. Of course, you would latch on there. There's the truth of the matter. All right. That's it. That's it. I'm going to leave. Thank you. The Dallas Maverick. That's 23. Oh, you're tempted. I can speak. Yeah. Maybe I'll say 10 minutes. Yeah, you're right. Okay. Don't take it. Love the maps. Quick break. And then we'll see if I can make it through here. This episode is brought to you by Sam's Club. During the holidays, everyone's in a club. The last minute gift givers club, the cool aunts club, the food coma club, whatever holiday club you're in, Sam's Club is the club that helps you pull it off. Done. After the brands they want, like Aura Ring and Kitchen Aid, without blowing your budget, check and check. Come join us. Sam's Club. All right. We're back. Bill has left us. Great to see him. But we're moving on in the rankings because we have so many of these teams to get through. We're only at number 23. And that team is the Dallas Mavericks, who, as we're recording this, are just growing by the day because they had media day the other day, Derek Lively hasn't played him forever. Apparently, still grew. Two inches. Cooper Flag says he's 6'10" now. I'll be honest. Don't believe them. I think if it was like one guy, I'd be like, "Oh, okay." He was young. Growth spurs happen at indeterminate amounts of time, for sure. The fact that multiple guys are just grown like weeds, unless they're giving them something, like they're drinking their GLP's or whatever, I think they're fun. I think they're probably. Like extension surgery. Yeah, it could be. Go to Turkey a little bit. No, I think. Are they doing that in Turkey? I think they're doing a lot of stuff in Turkey. I believe that. So do you think it's. Is it a competitive thing? It's like one guy mentions that they grew up this summer, and everyone's else is like, "Wow." Max Christie. I also grew this summer, you know? Just sucking it up. That's the thing. Who's the. I mean, Tatum, they always talked about grew once he was in the league. I was trying to think of who's like the all-time person who did grow, because you don't really. There's ever like real changeable. Katie, I think did grow. Katie went about it the right way, which is you clock in at the start of your career. You just artificially say you're six-nine, and then every time someone asks you about your height, you'd be real, like, hazy about it. Well, I'm very sensitive to this subject specifically, because of the dating apps. Do you not, very tall, or what? I'm six feet on the dot. You hear me? 15 ladies, listen to the group chat last night? Six feet. Okay. Right now, you pull out a tape measure. Don't even try me. That's content. No, I wrote a news story, because Anthony Davis went on the In-House New Orleans Pelicans podcast. I was like, "They told me I grew. I grew." And then they listed him at another height, and then he slowly walked it back over time. He actually lost height as his career went on from that point forward. I think it's oftentimes a psychological thing to convince players to play farther down the positional spectrum. Oh. Perhaps this is a sign like, "Maybe Cooper Flag might be playing a little bit more power forward." I don't know. See, I usually think about it the other way, which is guys who don't want to play center are like, "Yeah, I'm six-ten. Not actually seven foot." You know, I don't want to be putting that box that I would rather not attend. But you're right. I like that kind of Machiavellian coaching strategy of, "Let's just tell this guy he's six-nine now and see what happens." There's a lot more 40 chess, based in your old perspective of the league than I would have expected. I just know that following the draft, there's a measurement's Mafia that people are just obsessed with. They even go to photos and see if people, you know, it's just kind of, this kind of thing is just famously full of human error. From person to person, combine measurements or this or that, they're just off. I could see it just being as simple as that as the person who measured just didn't do a good job. An in-house combine measurement stuff is notoriously flawed. So I think it could just be that, honestly, at the end of the day. So what are we talking about again? I don't know. Well, we're talking about how tall guys are. Do the extra three to four inches change your opinion of the Dallas Mavericks? No. I don't think they do. Derek Lively's still not being available. Disappointing? Three to four inches doesn't change your opinion, Ron. All right, stop. Just stop. We're trying to do a podcast here. I don't know. I don't know. What do you think I'm trying to do? There are people listening to this, you know? And they just leaned in. There are children out there for some godfors who have turned on the pod to listen to Bill and here we are talking about inches. I mean, as soon as he leaves the room, the two of you. But already getting injured, it's not just, lively, although that's the most concerning one. A couple of guys who are not participating in training camp as we're recording this, I believe more as Johnson was out, Santiago Dama out. Just a lot of the same stuff with the Mavs. I think overall, the question is considering they don't have their picks for the next couple of years here and they have every incentive to be good. Do we see them taking a little bit of a leap year two of Cooper? I know you've been very looking forward to what he could do in year two. Like do you see them making ground with Kyrie and everyone back? I mean, having Kyrie back, I mean, just having sanity in order has kind of been a recurring theme of this. And that's the thing that digs you out of the basement. So naturally, we would be talking a lot about it at the bottom of the lead. But we'd mentioned this the other day on our pod where I was saying my kind of take for the Mavs is that I think we could see an all star or like very close fringe, all star season from Cooper flag just because I think he's going to be moved back into a role that is more comfortable for him. Last year, that team just lacked half-court creation in the most obvious glaring way possible. They were awesome when those athletes got out and ran and they could run, jump, and dunk with the best of them, but having Kyrie back, now whether or not Kyrie is like auditioning, he seems content in Dallas, but he's at a new face of his life. He's just content where he isn't happy to be playing basketball, but he's going to make it a little bit easier for Kyrie, I think, at the simplest way. I think Kyrie has played it about as smoothly as a veteran star in his possession position could, which is like happy to be here, happy to contribute, happy to be in Dallas. But also, I think the subtext of all that is like, this is a small guard coming off yet another major injury who only has so much like really high-level basketball left. And he's shown to his credit. He can be a pretty incredible mentor to young players, especially in Dallas. And so having him around is not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination. He's going to make them so much better just by being there. This is one of the worst offenses in the league last season. That's going to only go up, but how long is that going to be okay for Kyrie to do and what he wants to do? That's kind of the looming question, I think, as far as it relates to that. It's always been the crazy thing with Kyrie because from the outside, you would think that he would bristle at a lot of these things, but ultimately it seems like he's one of the great hang guys in the league, like everyone loves him, including young players. Well, I think it was always directionally where it's like, I think what he wanted was to be respected. And so when he was playing with LeBron, and it was like the little brother ring from LeBron, but also from the media, like the way he was characterized, I think he didn't necessarily enjoy it. But as soon as it was like, oh, I am peers with Kevin Durant. Oh, I am kind of a mentor to Luca Doncic, on a team that's going to the NBA finals. Like, I think everything kind of clicked into place for him in which he just wanted to be looked at it in a particular way. And as soon as he was, he kind of is a good citizen for an NBA team. The COVID stuff, I think, also getting past that was pretty important for all of us. The COVID thing, the document, look, there's a lot of stuff. He stepped in it plenty of times, but I think he's come a long way. Well, since we're talking about Kyrie, why don't we get to our existential question, which is, what's more important for Cooper Flag's development? Is it keeping Kyrie and letting him help rear these young guys Cooper in particular? Or do you want to flip him for the future building blocks that you can get, presumably, in a Kyrie trade? I think it depends on the building blocks. And this is where he don't trade Kyrie just for the sake of it. And he does have a player option after this year. So there is time to play this entire season with him on the roster, find a new home next summer that could be good for everybody. Like, there's time to play with here. And I think if the right offer came around, sure, the building blocks for Cooper are super important. We've seen that with a lot of developing stars, the more you can get kind of a good infrastructure around them early, the more they can learn how to work with it. But I'm not trading Kyrie even for just anything. I think it has to be the right deal. It has to be the right offer. It has to be the right time. I mean, I don't really know what that is right now. - Well, I mean, the clock is ticking increasingly louder as it does for guys who are 32, is he 32 or did he just, no, he's 34 because he missed the season so basketball reference he got to go by that. Yeah, the clock is ticking incredibly loud. And so you would think that that would be sooner than later, but if you're gonna get, especially when you compound it with the ACL injury on the natural progression of guards, granted Kyrie is one of, I mean, one of the most skilled basketball players ever. I mean, just in terms of below the rim finishing, he might be the best ball handling guard ever, honestly. So his arc might be different than other guys and that he's not contingent on just like shooting the ball or whatever it is, all those things kind of wrap up. But I would think that to get the most bank per buck, this would be a short, a very short term conversation when you think. - Could be, I think, I think there are a lot of teams who could use Kyrie clearly. And I think it's the combination of the veteran know-how, the shot making, the like time and place and score understanding of how he plays is so sophisticated. And I think it's very easy to take for granted, but that all playoff teams need. I just, I don't know, like this arrangement between granted Kyrie and a different version of the Mavericks has been so successful for them both. And so like such a worthwhile endeavor that I don't think anyone's like racing to the door right now. - Right, you basically owe it to your fans to actually get him back on the core and show these two guys together. If only for half a season, because they probably been waiting for this since Cooper has been drafted and didn't get it, they didn't get it with Anthony Davis being there as well. And so like I feel like this is probably a deadline conversation, but if you trade Kyrie, you also need to trade him for more guards because he's probably the only actual point guard on the roster at this point. And so stabilizing the position is critical, not only for him, but just some of these other guys around him, as much as we love watching Cooper flag kind of be point Cooper for a while, it'd be nice if he slotted into his natural position for at least half a season at this point. - Yeah, they need the ball handling if they're gonna trade Kyrie. They also need the shooting. This is a team that was like 27th and 3.8, 26 and 3.0 percentage and just lost click Thompson. So it's like Kyrie is one of their best spacing options in addition to everything else he brings to the table. - This team is variant Atlanta Hawks from a couple of years ago, honestly. Because if you think about you have small guard who is probably not gonna be around, do you think about you have like big forward who has upside as a playmaker with Jalen Johnson, the roster build reminds me of the Hawks from a couple of years ago. And that's kind of where I'm comparing those two timelines and the choices that they made. You just have a lot of big forwards and they keep adding them. Like I mean, El Dama's 3, 4, 5, probably more of a 4, 5, but I don't know, those two timelines jumped out to me as interesting. I don't know what you can glean from that in terms of how the man should go about their business, but that was something I was thinking about. - I think there's all these different components of that timeline where yeah, there's the Kyrie question as it relates to Cooper Flag and the development of this roster. There's also like what do you do with all these forwards who you have brought together to give yourself options, to explore the market on guys like PJ Washington, to insulate the roster from the injury troubles that seem to dog it at every turn. Like it's useful having all these guys, but you cannot play all these guys. And so how do you resolve that in a way that makes space for Rose Johnson when he's ready to play? - Although you could look at it a different way in is Messiah coming from Toronto, building the all power forward everything. - Yep. - Operation 6.9. - Back in effect. - Right. Plus Mike Schmidt also did a similar thing. Prioritize size and those 3D type wings. Are they just trying to do that with Dallas Mavericks? Are they trying to set up where everybody is that big and maybe Cooper isn't the nominal point guard, but he's like a guy who's going to handle a lot in his future. And so it's not that big of a deal if they have a point guard. That would be the counter argument to that, but I don't know what their vision is at this stage. - I just think last season, hopefully kind of disabuse some of that notion. Like you want Cooper flag handling the ball a bit. You want him creating certainly, but it just showed how much help he needs as far as like setting the table for everyone else and also making his life easier. I don't want Cooper flag taking that many pull-up jumpers all the time. I want him being put in positions to accentuate what other stars do well. And so however long Kyrie is on this team, this season is a good pilot program. For if you put a shot creator with Cooper flag, what does that do for Cooper's game? How does that open up things for Kyrie? Like what are the synergies that are going to be fun to play with for Cooper flag over the next decade of his career? - Operation 6.9, did you get that from Justin's Twitter suggested? I was just curious. - We don't look at us for a new page anymore. - It's my self-stack, actually. - Yeah, for instance, I kind of wonder, the more we were talking about Kyrie and I'm kind of thinking about like what has value to move forward and to help Cooper flag. - Obviously Pete, it's a glut of the same type of player like hints the nickname of the team there that Rob gave them, but I kind of wonder a distressed asset that could be like a glass half empty, glass half full guy like Derek Lively could be potentially pretty valuable since he's younger. And it kind of makes me wonder if maybe if Kyrie is more, 'cause we saw him at the apex of that team build in 2024 with when they went to that finals. And what happened to Kyrie at that final is when he was healthy, it's kind of like, can he be the second banana on a team that's like highly, highly competitive against a really switchy physical wing heavy team? 'Cause those are the teams that you're gonna have to go through in the West and it kind of makes me wonder what team is gonna be interested in that or for it's gonna be more of a Kyrie's marketable, what we're bringing him for that reason, rather than a competitive basketball advantage. - So you're wondering what is Kyrie's market value at this stage considering what happened in the finals? - Yeah, because you watched him just struggle as Luke is number two, and I just kind of wonder, are we, do we really see a better version of that on the horizon? If you're a team that's competitive, or would it have to be a different roster build than like a Helio Luke attack team? - I mean, to just bring it all the way back, I think the reason Kyrie struggled in that series in that spot had less to do with Kyrie and more to do with if the surrounding pieces are Derek Jones Jr. P.J. Washington and a very young Derek Lively or Daniel Gafford. Like how much creative juice is there when Kyrie has to give up the ball? - It was very tilted towards him. - And so it's like if he wasn't trying, if he wasn't pulling a rabbit out of a hat, nothing was happening on a lot of those possessions. And so I think the ideal case for Kyrie is not that he has to carry that heavy a load. It's that he's playing on a team that has some secondary playmakers, that has some short role biggs, that has guys who he can dish off to and relocate and be one of the most dangerous scores in the game. - Yeah, I mean, the Detroit option is so tantalizing for this exact reason, they have all the size, they could protect him, they clearly go on a different path, we'll get to that later on here, quicker than you might think in these power rankings. But there's probably gonna be someone there and I think from the Dallas side, the case for trading is they are pretty asset poor from this point forward. The next four first round picks they are out as a result of all the wheeling and dealing in the Luca era. So they need talent, they have done a good job this offseason going and getting it from different sources. They're taking a lot of second, third spins on some interesting guys, you mentioned Salty Al Dama. Zachary Riesashe, is probably the interesting one and we're in the guys and things portion of this here. So in your one of Cooper Flag, they took the photo of all the number one draft picks. It was Cooper, Kyrie, Anthony Davis. This year they took the same photo, only it was Cooper, Kyrie and Zachary Riesashe. - Interesting. - Whose head still seems to be spinning from this whole experience. I don't know if you all saw that clip of him, he was like, "I don't know what happened." They told me I played well my first year, he was like, "The league is hard." Yeah, he seems like he's a little destabilitated. - He's a little destabilitated. - Your subtle French accent is better than Justin's robust Italian accent. - I was very subtle, I didn't try to go into it 'cause you always shame me when I go, Rob is so, he's so weak, he can't do accents around Rob. - He's an international podcast. - I don't wanna get into the history of discrimination in this country. I'm just gonna say an Italian accent is a very particular choice to make, you know? I can't believe you said that, take it back. I'm Italian, I could do that. - I don't know. - That's how that works. - I don't think that's how that works. If you go full Mario, I don't think you could do it. It's my people. Anyway, Riesashe is here. I like the poll considering where Dallas is at at this stage. Obviously, I think did not go well with the Hawks. He really didn't seem like the environment was suited to him like fostering and developing 'cause Treyon was already thrown barbed in him as soon as he got in there. This, at the very least, he's gonna have a runway to figure it out. The problem is he makes so much as we've talked about with other guys that it costs a lot in order to allow him that development. But he did shoot it well at this stage. Like he's 37%, 30 point shooter. He's turning 21 in April. So he's still very young and figuring it out. There is a template to be a credible 3&D guy. I just think it's gonna need some time. And the Mavericks at this stage have the time to do it. So I like that move. So I think the good news is, if he is a 3&D guy, it doesn't have to be in a very static standstill kind of sense. Like he can be a fluid open court player. He can be the kind of guy who you hit on a cut and connects the dot to the next, like next spot in line. And so if he's doing those things, it's not just, okay, are you guarding your position at an elite level and hitting 38% of your threes? Like, okay, you have enough other things you're bringing to the game and to your team where it can soften some of the blow of a bad shooting night. If they can get enough of that, I mean, it's a worthy enterprise regardless. I think with Risa Shae, you just always worry about his aggressiveness on the drive, his refusal to shoot it. Sometimes he just like clams up in a way you don't want your dynamic wing players to clam out. - Yeah, and the history of like number one picks being rehabilitated is not illustrious. - But he's such an outlier as a number one guy though, is the thing. Like he's probably the like least ballyhooed number one pick in our lifetime. like we had to go all the way back to certainly recent history like even we talked about with Bill O'Connor, but like O'Connor, like people thought he was going to be a thing. I think Richard said he came in being like, well, this draft sucks. We'll just get a solid player. He hasn't lived up to that at this point. So there's still a long way to go. I think that's what what hurts. Like you tried to take the solid double swing and it's like, he's going to make if they keep him next season. So not this season, season following that on his team option, $17 million is the fourth most currently on the Mads books for next season. Yeah. So like this, the flyers cost a lot when you get picked that high, but they're not really in a position where the salary means a lot. Like I'm not too worried about research. I say salary. I'm concerned with who can he be? How is he interested in playing and do the Mavericks have the infrastructure to channel the best version of him? And that's another area where I think the more ball handlers that better, frankly. Yeah. And research is not going to be disabused of any kind of like destructive idea of who he is. I don't, I never got that sense from him because he's never really been a primary on any team that I've ever watched other than like maybe like the French national teams or whatever. I don't, I don't have enough of a knowledge on that one to know for sure. So that, so that would mean that, you know, the money is not going to be scary. If you do audition him and he's worth keeping around, it's not like you're going to be like, Oh, God, we got to, you know, really back the brings up to this guy. There's a version of this team where you get to the second unit and it's like, Risa Shay's playing well, Naju Marshall's a downhill for Daniel Gafford, although he's probably going to start the beginning of the season with live layout is just like a bundle of energy. Sergio De La Raya comes on and is like wheeling and dealing like they could have a really fun open court group. I don't know that they're going to be great, but as far as putting guys in a position to succeed who are natural athletes who do have some field to them, I actually think the the Mav's reserves could be pretty compelling. Yeah, spatially that made me a little sick. Absolutely. Well, let's sort of saunty in there and you know, everything is fine. There we go. Well, which of these guys is most intriguing to you guys? We named off a lot of them. We didn't name more as Johnson, who we get thrown here. They're number nine overall pick. We could talk about Dustin May stepping in. Dustin May to the coaching field from college. He's a real straight shooter. Even just the coaching. Yeah, he's doing real coaching out there and coaching him up. I mean, we have really seen someone make that jump in a while. Certainly a college coach of like his stature. He's the last one. Beeline might be and that went great. It did go great from Michigan. But I think we have reason to believe that Dustin may be slightly more adaptable and also a little more fluent in just like talking to humans who are you can't treat like a 19 year old. Sure. Even if they are a 19 year old. Progressive by all accounts like consider one of the more progressive minds like he at the high at the college basketball level. Obviously punched above his weight when he was at smaller school. So he's an innovative thinker and I think his temperament is pretty good. I mean, I don't know the B line was like was he was he a yell or I mean he's I think that's kind of let me tell you a secret. They're all yellow. No yellows really. I mean, I think he takes people to task. But I think just guys who are kind of inherent. Yellers don't really work. Yeah. So I think he could on that standpoint. I mean, Brad Stevens, one of the huge ones, successors. That's been years and years and years. But but temperament wise. Yes, absolutely. The guys that tend to flame out are the real hard drivers that tried to take their rigorous structure from the college ranks to adult men who don't want anything to do with that even when they're rookies. And so if Dusty May is the opposite, it seems like it would be a fit. I don't know about him in terms of a tactician. Like do people think highly of him in terms of like how he's scheming things up. Do you think that'll be a strength? Yeah. Yeah. I think he's considered because the teams that he played really successful were going to briefly step into a nerdy world here. I mean, his Florida Atlantic teams played a certain way and then his Michigan teams played a completely different way that I think people didn't totally expect. So I think he's versatile not stuck in his ways. I think your point just about like the space. Now we're just kind of talking about Dusty May. We don't have to do this forever. But I think that there's a space of self motivation that really changes. I was just talking as like an agent about this actually where it's like certain players sink or swim based on this sudden space that they have to kind of where your your individual habits dictate whether or not you succeed or fail. And I think in the NBA, that's probably why there's less of an appetite for like I don't need you to scream at me like that. There's like there's expectations, but overall to put a bow on it, I think maybe he's going to be, I think he's going to work. I mean, just the power bases in college versus the pros are so different. And I like, I think I think we're isolating something really important as far as which college coaches succeed. Like that adaptability, you would think that college coaches have to be adaptable, but so many are really not. It is systemic. It is institutional. It is like, I am here for 25 years. Who the fuck are you? Even highly touted recruit to come in and question me. In the NBA, your feet are in quicksand all the time. Guys are constantly in and out of the lineup because of the length of the season, they're constantly being traded and moved around and shuffled around the lineup. The players themselves are so much more skilled that if you do not know how to leverage the ball handlers who are waiting on the wings, you're going to drown. And so I think really the game and the professional game reward the coaches who are creative enough, we have the ingenuity, who see the bigger picture beyond like, Oh, this is the way I like to play. All right, let's move along here. Number 22, the Washington Wizards, a fascinating team. I think this is one that I struggled with the most because if you'd asked me just in a vacuum, I would say like, they might be pretty good play in level, but as you're doing the exercise, we find them at 22, which it's okay. It's not too bad. No, definitely better than it has been in years past, but they do have the backbone of a successful team if we're assuming that Trayong and Anthony Davis are going to play this year and play well, which I don't know how much you can assume that, but let's just say, for argument, say they do have a long bench of young guys who have been playing a bit now, and then they also have Ajay Jibonza at the number one pick. So there's a lot to like about this team. I guess the question is like, how soon does it all click into place? I wish I knew where to even start. Yeah. If it were just the young Wizards, then yeah, we could see the coalescing around Ajay Jibonza coming in as number one pick. That would make sense. If there were just the old Wizards, I could wrap my arms around that, but trying to make sense of how those two things intersect and who should be playing with Trayong and Anthony Davis beyond the fact that it's just like, oh, Alex R is going to play because he's important. Ajay Jibonza is going to play because he's important. I think you naturally start indexing for things that are not just like optimal basketball fit, because the Wizards can't afford to just be the team that tries to be good this season. So are you more confused by that we'll just call for the sake of conversation at two-time line approach here? Like, would you rather there be a clear where young or where we're going for it? I think the clarity would be nice, but I'm not saying like you should trade the number one overall pick to fit the Trayong and Anthony Davis timeline either. Like, clarity is nice. Having the like a somewhat veteran team with guys who could pop, I get the appeal of it. I just think with these particular players, like where I come down is, if you're the Wizards, what is your absolute top priority? And I think your top priority has to be who makes Ajay Jibonza better and who stands in his way. And Trayong seems like the kind of player to me who can make him better right now, who can make his life a little easier, take some of the creative responsibility office shoulders, empower him in ways that I think will be beneficial. Anthony Davis might do that defensively, might get in his way on offense, might by being one of two bigs on the floor, clutter stuff up in a way that's counterproductive for Ajay Jibonza and the Wizards. It's just like the second they get Ajay, their entire frame of reference shifts. And that perspective was the perspective that brought in Trayong and Anthony Davis in the first place. This is an odd situation. I want to get to the like Tray and Jibonza thing. I'm more concerned than you I think, but it's actually because there are a couple like templates of the way this usually plays out, which is, you know, if you're an old team, say like let's say the spurs throughout the years of that crazy run that they have with pop and dunking and everything and you have this system that is working and iterating over and over again and taking different forms and you also have the benefit of being competitively really great and you have the, you know, also you source talent better than anybody. You end up in these two timeline situations where you have an established thing that is not threatened by the young players because they weren't drafted super high. They're not, they don't have crazy expectations. So you can bring them along with like measured expectations and then hopefully graduate guys as they go and then you have the other version of it where if you have a two timeline thing, if you have a successful young core and you start importing like veteran players who are in controlled roles and the whole thing is kind of harmonious where this is an odd situation where I don't know I'd be curious to know if we agree or we disagree here a year ago, we were very, I think we've gotten some shit for it, we were wizard optimistic I think where we're coming, you know, I came out of last summer league and I was like, a lot of these players kind of make sense like we move, we're at least inching forward these guys, Keishan George, I think is kind of oh, he performed above expectations. I like Tray Johnson, I think he's going to fit in somewhere, they just had a lot of guys that kind of made sense. So you end up in this situation where you're bad enough to get an AJ DeBonza, but it'd be one thing if you had the out of saying like, all right, we're not, we have these older guys, but we're not committed to them, they have committed to trade young. Oh yeah. And a big way, 80 is on the, on the, did you want to go ahead? No, I think you raise a really good point. I think one thing as media, we probably want things to a little bit, be a bit more tidy than they always are. Like not just media, but also just as us. Right, just humans, just control or into your car, quite. Okay. Yeah. I'm kind of a messy car guy. It's pretty sparkling. I could see you having, I say this with great affection and admiration, a serial killer bathroom, like just absolutely spotless. Right now it's half-tiled and it's all that stuff. Laundry's another area. I'm like, my clean laundry stays in like a pile that I pull from and it doesn't always get, it isn't always get folded. Yeah, pile guy. But I get that if you look at a team and it doesn't really match up, like, oh, I get like being confused and thus like, maybe lowering them in the in an exercise like this, but I find the tre young Anthony Davis pick and roll to be like such a clear cut backbone for any team that works and doesn't necessarily step on everything else they're building. And if I look at the individuals that they're hoping to bring along here, SAR and AD work as a defensive duo. We'll see if one of them actually steps out and so I actually hit some threes. We'll see, but they could trade off and that's just like a really solid foundation for something. At the very least, we know the defense might be credible. And that's nice for any organization, let alone a team that has been dog shit at that for a very long time. And tre young gets a bad rap. And certainly as a personality, I could see where maybe he and AJ might step on each other eventually. But I think the concerns about him being able to feed other players was like a three years ago thing. I actually think he made a considered effort to like distribute and get guys involved before they ultimately just like tossed them aside in ways that I think are to the benefit of the rest of the Wizards young guys. I think it's like wildly overstated to be honest. Like tre young, we can talk about the defense. We can talk about the contract. We can talk about just like his general style of play. I understand caveats with all of them. This is one of the worst offensive teams in the league. They were so bad, especially in terms of their ball handling, they had no way to evaluate which young prospects on this team were even good. Because like Kishan George is handling the ball way too much. Everyone's turnovers are ratcheted up. Trade Johnson is never getting the ball in the positions he should be getting the ball. And so putting tre young on this team naturally helps a lot of those things kind of fall into their natural place. He's not perfect, but he is a very good playmaker. He does give a natural sense of order pretty much everywhere he goes. Probably also wears out his welcome in three years. I'm okay with all of those components. But I just I just think he gets a lion share of criticism when he is only like just point blank one of the best passers in the league. And if you have that guy on your team, I'm eager to see where it can go. I think the jumping off of what you're saying is he is going to help, but I think that the the frustrations, even if they're overstated, I do think that they're backed up with some pretty clear evidence. And I think that that's probably why you need to have a phase mindset about this. Whereas if you can come in with a flag, we were talking about, you know, just like stretching these guys or said or coward, someone or thing where it's like, we're just going to throw through a fire host because these guys can take it and they're going to be better for it. They're just not going to have the opportunity to do this because trays play style, even though he is one of the most brilliant home run hitter passers I've ever seen. Either hand, crazy soft, all the little nerdy shit you want to get into the velocity throws a super catchable ball like it just he's probably fun to play with, but that the conditions with in which you're going to receive that brilliance are very narrow because I wrote this down and he just has a helio play style. Passes per 100. If you're playing with tray young, now a lot of superstars meet this box or check this box. If you're sure the ball is going to not be moving around as much tray on the floor this pass or in 2425 it was 270 passes per 100. When he's off the floor, the ball was passed 314 times per 100 possessions. The ball moves a lot when he's not on the floor. The problem with that is he's not a catch and shoot player. He has to shoot with the ball in his hands. It's heavily lopsided towards him dribbling. So I say all that to say that's going to create such a narrow construct for AJ that I don't think he's going to enjoy that. I think that the happiness of this season is going to rise or fall based on how much a because AJ is we're talking about boozer having a way that he's played throughout. AJ has always been central to whatever situation he's in. Yeah. And I could see this wearing him out, not just in a personal. Sure. I think the two things are going to kind of conflict. But like I want to see that budge. Like I'm really compelled by AJ to bounce like I think he has a very strong chance to be the best player in this draft class for a stack as it is. I'm I'm like on pins and needles kind of watching every step he takes because he's so potentially explosive. But I want to see him be incisive, right? Like put him in specific context, take him out of his comfort zone. How much of a scalpel can you be and not just a guy who is able to blow past people and overwhelm people based on your athleticism? I'm like, I want to see him make tactical advantages. And I think that's some of what you can do playing alongside someone like Tray Young, who I mean, to be clear on Tray, like I think the question of how you build a championship team with Tray Young might be unsolvable. Like it just might be too much weight, too much burden, too weird to play style to make it through that many playoff rounds. But how you get to 40 wins, 50 wins. Like that feels fairly clear to me. And how you do it with him and AJ to bounce like I can see how that could still work. For a while, he was printing 40 win teams at the Hawks. I think he should be the training wheels. He should be the training wheels for AJ DeBonza. The issue is only I'm blown right past it. The problem was the extension and that they gave him so much and also for so many years that you I mean, there's no way AJ doesn't get to the point within this contract term that he will want more of the reins of this offense. And so that kind of brings us to the existential question because Anthony Davis also in a similar situation where he's extensionellable, he seems like he would want one as soon as possible. Oh, yeah. Which is let's be clear. The reason the Dallas Mavericks traded him above any other. Not just do we got to don't turn the page, but they didn't want to be on the hook for 80s next deal. So he's eligible for four years 276 million. Yeah. So he's going into his age 33 season, 15th year in the week. I didn't realize he was that deep in his career. That's wise. Probably because we don't see him very often over the past few years. But my question is less will he earn it? Should the wizards give it to him? And it's more so if you're a wizards fan, do you want to see him get that because if he gets it, presumably things are going well. But then also if things are going well, perhaps you are officially captured your ceiling in the same when we talked about with trailers. Like we had to figure this out later. Even if it's like four years down the road, this is a big mots of ball hanging that might encumber us from like getting a crucial piece in place of like him and his age 3536 season. So if you're a wiz fan, like do you want to see him extend it? I think a healthy Anthony Davis is maybe one of the 20 best players in the league. And I would not touch this extension for a second. Like I would not even really think all that hard about it. I think it is his next deal is the potential to be so destructive to a rebuilding team that it could invalidate the entire enterprise. Like you can see the dominoes that go from pen to paper from Anthony Davis to all we have to trade AJ DeBonson now. And I don't want to invite any of that kind of possibility. Jesus Christ. Uh yeah. What do you think the dark? What do you think the minimum deal he's going to agree to is like what's what is he because the years are going to be the issue? Well, there's the minimum he would agree to and the minimum he would agree to for the wizards. And those are very different numbers. I suspect. And the crazy thing is the center marker all of a sudden has become like a real sellers market. We saw Walker Kessler just getting a whole kick in Cabuto for him to go to the Lakers just because there weren't a lot of centers there. We're seeing with Jalen Dern this all playing out just the fact that a team like the Kings or someone else just would pay him that much. All of a sudden becomes more complicated. If another team a competitive team like for instance, maybe Detroit trade Zern, maybe they want to come calling for a D the fact that there are openings for him. I think a very least creates a leverage point where they might someone's going to have to pay him regardless of who it is. Yeah. I had a broader thought like this is a little bit more of a meta like how we think about basketball over the decades kind of a thing. It's like is the fact that Tray Young I always use the CEO like you have these certain types of CEOs that kind of take you through your progression as a company that like have different like they're not going to be the guy that gets you across to like the promised land, but they get you to the IPO. Yeah, I'm just kind of like is Tray the fact that Tray Young isn't an in-game solver, but he has this role of like maybe we didn't expect him to have this. Is that a stupid way to think about like the the long term like value of who a player is? Like we were talking about Josh Gidey. It's just like he's not. I don't know. I'm just kind of trying to think about does that need to be factored in about how we think about him in addition to all the like brilliance operatives that he has. Absolutely. I mean this is just boiling down the floor versus ceiling debate with these players of like who raises both and that's a very select group that is really impacting your bottom line wins and your high end wins. I just don't think Tray Young's ever going to be that guy necessarily would take a pretty radical reimagining of the things he does well to make him a title winning point guard in the way that we just saw like Jalen Brunson be a title winning point guard. Yeah, I think can you win a title with this guy? Is he a 16-win player? Is it a good place to start from? But then there's a whole mess of other players that are never going to get to that level that teams just need to fill the rosters and just get by with and that's totally fine as well. It's just like you just have to talk about them a little differently. It's also the burden of being a star. It's the burden of a $200 million contract is your health to that standard of okay, if we're going to invest in you to this degree, if we're going to rely on you this much, what is it that you're bringing to us as an organization? What can we reasonably expect? I think it's fair to have that conversation about any star, certainly any player, but stars especially invite the skepticism of can you win at the highest possible leverage, highest possible levels in the highest leverage games and traying has shown some capacity to do that, but it's been a more disappointing resume otherwise. So this podcast is all about the Tracy Letts players of the NBA. I love Tracy Letts. Well, I mean, there's a lot of young guys that we didn't talk about. So it's time to talk about some guys and things, baby. Well, I think if if tray young is committed to, does that mean does that logically imply that that's a vote of pessimism for these other guys that we have yet to talk about, who we a year ago were very high on, relative to their draft position, is that driving it or like is he in the way of any other guys, I guess, to make a leap forward? How are we going to spend it? Who gets the vote of no confidence in your mind if you bring in Treyo? Well, I mean, let's just say the handful of guys. I mean, you know, Keishan George, Bob Carrington, and Trey, I mean, Will Riley kind of asserted himself towards the end of the year too, Kool-A-Bolly is another guy we haven't even talked about too, who's out in just the netherworld of that, so I don't know what to believe, but. What do we think about those cluster of guys? I worry more about the guys that are going to need the ball handling reps that are far enough along that haven't shown anything, and if you picked up on it, I'm talking about Bob Carrington, who isn't very good, and I think probably should get moved out of the rotation here. Trayman seems like a totally stable hand, like he could fill that void, but like I got a Kool-A-Bolly in a weird way, I think it's easy to find minutes for because he has such a divine skill. I don't think he's on the same level as some of these guys in terms of like future value, but like he can defend. He's a good-sized defender and like they'll find places for him. I worry a little bit about Will Riley, who still needs a ton more time, and he feels like the guy to worry about. But like he should be running second units, for instance, I think Tray Johnson should be a critical part, like if Tray Johnson shows to be better, or they just need spacing a certain line up to close with, like he should be closing with them because he's going to be a key factor that I think he showed enough last year to be called as that. It's still like the guys who are still projects. Those seem to be the guys that came wit more of a few years ago on the rockets, and now he's trying to get a roster spot on the nuggets after not getting it on the wizard. He got kicked off the wizard for like conduct, unbecoming of a wizard. Like it was crazy. Where's he now? He got kicked off again. He's on Denver. He's trying to make good on Denver. Right, right, right. I'm with you on Bob Carrington. I think he projects as a guy who needs to strive to be a sixth-seventh-man type as much as anything. That would be a good score off the bench. That would be a good outcome for Bob Carrington for where he started his career. Otherwise, I really don't think Tray stands in the way of, like I really think he's going to make Tray Johnson's life easier. I think Kishon, again, was overtaxed as a ball handler for as enticed as I was by the total package of his skills. Like I don't want him to have to do that all the time. I want him to play with the real point guards. That'll be nice. And frankly, even though it is a credit rotation, I will be holding my Will Riley stock, and I look forward to our realized gains by the end of the season. Yeah. Capital City go-go pick and roll reps. I think they're in store for Will Riley. Absolutely. He did. He did show side. And he's huge. And he's pretty smooth with the ball. He's an interesting player. I think the name we're not talking about near enough is Alex Sarr, who I have some thoughts. I've thought Alex Sarr took some real legitimate steps forward last season. A lot of them were rooted, though, in playing the short-role game, posting up, asserting himself more inside. All things that are going to be massively more challenging with Anthony Davis on the floor. This is one, I thought you raised a great point, Justin, about like the Trey AD pairing and picking rules, like such a good backbone for solid basketball. And do we want that at the expense of whether you think about it as like the nerdy league past shit or the smaller player development gains or just like the little things that make Alex Sarr a 15% better player, like is giving up that stuff worth the backbone of a team that is going to be like, okay, I really don't know how to parse it, especially because I was kind of bullish on what Sarr was becoming, not as a validation of his draft selection necessarily, but just as like a good all-around player who was already kind of holding his own defensively and was starting to come into his own on offense. I saw Anthony Davis listed in the starting lineup as a power forward. And my first thought was, oh no, we're doing this again. We're right back. But you're right, because Sarr is going to be forced to be the stretch option. Because in one of the biggest mysteries in recent NBA history, Anthony Davis never developed a credible three-point jumper, which if you watched him early on in his career, you would have thought it was a natural progression. He just never got it. Maybe he just got too bulky. Maybe there's something weird about it that just never happened. And I don't think it's going to happen at age 33. And so it is incumbent on him to be more of the stretch now. You draft him so high again and like a down draft, so whatever. But you draft him with the idea that like he could be some of that player that he would have some stretch to his game. And so I think it's like a good thing for him long term to like be cast in that role. But you're right. Like he had his most success being more of a center than a stretch big. And so this really forces him to do what he didn't want to do last year. It wasn't as good at last year. Yeah. Sarr's caught, and I compare these guys often because I just think they're really similar play. He's caught in a similar in between zone. It's color aware where it's like he's very long and we see him shoot the ball. And it looks nice. And it kind of, you know, the Davis saw kind of things shooting wise. There's something interesting that goes on with like the op that you can be mechanically perfect. Like, and there's just something going on in the way, whether it's a guy watches the ball fly or they look at the rim, you know, your shooting coaches talk about this. That's a digression. But for some reason, it just never connects and comes together. I feel like Sarr is probably going to stay in that range. And it's like, when we're coming into the draft, we're like, I can see him shooting it eventually. He was so rough and passive and timid and just like deferring around the basket that you're right. He did make a step forward in terms of, you know, pursuing that he needs to get in. We need to build on that. We need to continue to go down that direction. I had to run down there. Like, just, there's a gigantic, let's see, he shot fewer. He went from 41, 41.2% of his offense and year one was, was jump shots. And that went all the way down to 22.9% in year two. So that's good. That's a step in the right direction. The problem is that he has so much short mid range chaff in his, he shot, I mean, hit you know, with another one, 192 short mid range jumpers. And he shot 33% on those, like, there's like a lot of, it's a lot of him shooting. He's just weird push shots from like 10 feet, like he's got to just continue on that path and don't regress. Keep, don't do the AD thing. What else he got in there? That's all. You got your grocery list? It's all in his hands. I worked in my, I worked in my bids. I just saw, I've always been keeping an eye on that like for him. Like, don't be, he's, he falls risk of being like lukewarm offensively. Yes. Like, I think he needs to continue on the, he's, progress is good. Keep going. I just don't know how you keep going with AD there. If they're going to play a lot of minutes together, and that may depend on AD's abilities to healthy, how you stagger the rotation, all those things. But a lot of what plays Alex are in terms of that mid range offense, which I agree with. You're like, there's just stuff he needs to weed out. They had no flow to their offense. They had no playmaking. They had no adults in the room who's like, I know where players go and you go there. And it's not that Alex are needs to be told where to go. It's that they need some semblance of space and they just, they had no space. They had no flow. And so asking biggs to not settle, I think is the luxury of a team that knows what the fuck it's doing. And the Wizards were not a team that knew what they were doing. That's a great point. That's my bigger question for this team, isn't, isn't like all these guys like the timeline stuff. It's, can an unserious team be a serious team? And that's young players taking the next step. But it's also like Brian Keefe. Is he a good enough coach to be coaching a serious team? I think that's a big question. Fascinating team, but we got to move along to our last team on the docket for today. Number 21, the Phoenix, what did they do to earn that? They're among the hardest teams to talk about him, I think. So the sun's finished eighth in the West last year, but we have them 10th this year in our rankings. Now, we can talk about the particulars there and also the fact that Mark Williams, as we go into the season, doesn't look like he's going to be around for a little while. That's a big miss at the center position, they added miles, bridges, they bring in Luke Kinnard, they bring back some of the key figures of last year, Gillespie, big part of their success last year. And so like, you can look at him, be like, they could just do the same thing again. I'm just always worried about teams with this and which is drove my cynicism for this team. It's just like when trying hard is the number one thing on the list of positives for a team, trying to recreate that again in a second season, always pretty difficult. Yeah. And I don't see anything addition to that where they could really hang their hat. And so that's why I had them around this range. I think that just try to do it again strategy when your whole success was based off of overachieving, as you mentioned, is just it's asking a lot and it's especially asking a lot where yes, there is a decent amount of like talent in the door as you alluded to JV as opposed to the talent that's out the door. But the nature of the team has shifted completely like, there's going to be so much more jail and green this season than there was last year, there's going to be an awful lot of Luke Kinnard this season than there was last year. And Mark Williams out, you're tilting even more towards the bench guys, which I like Oso Aguidaro. I like Malawatch. I like the potential there. Yeah, but let's not pretend that it's like the backbone of what was a top 10 defense last year again and again and again. You can do it once, you can pull it off, you can like get everyone aligned just so playing super hard and maximizing everything you do. I just think there's going to be like a little bit of their soul that's that's changing with them this year and I I don't know where they're going to make up that ground because they just don't have the offensive firepower to do it. Yeah, there's a little bit of the ripple effect of the Pacers buy in and sort of, you know, odd comes in and naturally you see this happen. I mean, their their whole approach was very noticeably bearhug, bear hugging and attacking and then disruptive at the point of the attack. They were the one of the most successful. They turned over lead ballhandlers and picking role more than just about any team in the league. I think they were third overall. You're talking about overachieving and you got it, you think like, well, if you're overachieving there's some there's some edge that you found that have helped you bridge that gap between what people expected. And I think people are going to expect that a little more this year. I don't think they're going to surprise anybody and I do like you said, I think they probably did take a bite out of their identity. Where did you have the sons on the list because you said you had them at 10? No, I had them well in the West. Yeah, I had them 20. Rob had them 20. You had them a little bit lower. I had them at 22. How'd they end up at 10 if we both all three had them in 20? Well, 20 overall. Oh, okay. We're at 21. You said they came in. That wouldn't make any sense. Right. Yeah, I think it's again, it's like I get why under the circumstances, they want to keep all the guys who are free agents, good bit of business to do that. But then reaching for someone like Miles Bridges in particular, who is just the epitome of a player who from a distance you might think would fit this, but is like all sizzle no steak when it comes to his habits just like does not comply with the Dylan Brooks version of this team that was kind of like their identity. like more than anything. - Coming off of probably the worst season of his career, at least recently after he had a little bit of a moment, he's just a very selfish him for score, and I get wanting to juice the offense 'cause that is where the big concern is there, especially 'cause Dylan Brooks, I don't think he's gonna be a go-to score his entire run with Phoenix, but maybe not, I mean, he looked at it incredible, so maybe he just found the magical mixer, but I get the pull for bridges, but you're right, like in practice, he seems to cut against everything that they stood for last year. - I've been big on this like thinking about basketball in these terms lately of just like electricity, like some players are conductors and some players are insulators, and I think that Miles is an insulator. And I think that if you think about what needs to happen with this team, clearly they had on their mindset, if you go and look at the players who were the most productive against them and just kind of let their asses up, it was big hand-linked forwards, granted those players are a problem for everyone, but they were a special problem for the sons. To me, everybody's talked a lot about like the Michigan State thing, you don't wanna be overly simple, I'm sure that was a factor who knows how much, but then they went and got, you know, you assume that Miles could guard up and defend those types of players, that might have been the mindset, and then co-appeat the other guy, the, you know, draft pick that they brought in. They brought in a couple of these, Pete is a lot more of a passer than Miles, so we'll see how much he plays, but I guess that was their mindset coming into the season, and then you hope that maybe Miles watch takes a step forward, but he was so limited, is it like too much to assume that he's gonna take a major leap this year? - Well, I think the big question is Devin Booker, because last year, felt at times like there was way too much on his plate, and I don't think they really took a lot off going into the season, I mean, they brought in new names and Jalen Green presumably will be there from the start, and so they'll have a full year of him, another guy who will complicate the events of success that they really hung their hat on, but it just feels like as time goes on, Booker really is kind of being asked to do more than even his lofty standards going into this, what third era for there, wherever you want to call it, of his career, would suggest that he could do, and so my big question just overall is like, where we are with Booker overall. He's going into year 12, changed his number, which is a cool factoid, I'm just gonna throw in there. - What do you change it to? - 15, he was at one. - Yeah. - What does that say about him, do you think? - How could we compare it to the Kobe situation? - That's not. - It's part of a middle of the road sort of guy, you know, he doesn't want to stand out. He's not number one, he's just like an average. He drives a Subaru, he just wants to get to work and do his business. - I like that. - Got it. - Pole star would be the more like subtle. (laughing) - So, do we feel like he has exceeded expectations? Because this is a guy who made a first team all MBA in recently, that went to a finals, was up in the finals, and perhaps could have had his entire career changed had they just won that series. Or do we feel a little bit more mixed, a little bit more disappointed at where he's at right now? - Oh, I think he's exceeded expectations. - Okay, 13th pick in the draft. - From that point of view, but I guess more from like, when he reached a certain level. - Yeah. - This is a guy who's a critical part of a vaunted team, you would say. Do we feel like he hasn't gotten to that level? Because I think a lot of people, maybe it's just marketing, maybe it's just like his popularity, like people expect him to be like, an all MBA guy year in and year out, and regularly seems like he falls short. - I think some of that's just 'cause he looks and sounds and feels like a shooting guard who should be one of the best players in the world, and is just a very, very good player. And like a clear star, unimpeachable. As you said, like first team all MBAs, that's a career achievement. Another all MBA team, five all star selections, the two gold medals as a starter on those teams. Like, those are real things. And to be honest, if you make at the end of this deal that he just inked, over $500 million in career earnings, like, I don't know what your expectations were if they weren't exceeded by that. - Who's walking down the street that can call that man a failure? - That's what I'm saying. Like, and if you see his architects die. - Honestly, it does hit. - That's one of the better watches, if you get great tastes. - Yeah. - Or, you know, great stylist, great interior decorator, although it's kind of sparse not to think about it, but very stylish. - Yeah, man. - He has been like downright metronomic from ages 22 to 29 in terms of his productivity. He's never quite shot it as well from three years we would have hoped, but that's a nitpick. And do we begrudge him staying on through different eras? I mean, he's been through like a hopeless sun's era to they built something to he stuck around. And now we're just like, why aren't, you know, is it fair that we're pulling him into a total legacy conversation? Because he hasn't really ever fallen off. He's been pretty steady throughout the way. The whole way, and he's capable of being adaptive. Like you were talking about the conductor insulator thing, like that team USA thing is a great example. - That's an IELP procedure. - He's capable of, you know, stepping in line with other great players. - Well, if I was to play devil's advocate, I would say your career decisions do kind of make your career at a certain stage when you get to a level where you could pick where you want to go. And he clearly chose you wanted to be a one team sort of guy unless like something happens later on in his career. I get the sense that like team USA used him best because he isn't destined to be the number one offensive engine does everything tough shopmaker that he's ultimately become. And perhaps I lament the fact that he didn't go elsewhere, especially after seeing the success he had specifically playing next to Chris Paul. Chris Paul's a different animal. Like no one, there's no other Chris Paul coming up there. And like having an organizer there was so essential to that entire run that they had there. But like having another guy, I think a lot about Anthony Davis next to LeBron, another outlier situation. But like Anthony Davis being the number one talent, but LeBron being the most important figure of that team and that finals run, like that feels like the optimal usage of him, but he's bound himself to a situation where that is almost impossible to happen. - Well, I mean, he tried it with Katie. I think they were just a little too similar in terms of their shop profile or the way they attacked the game. Like he needed the discrepancy of like the way he sees it versus Chris Paul sees it. And like I think that contrast really brought out something special for those sons. And that's the opportunity still there. It's hard to see in Phoenix, 'cause they don't have a lot of pieces to tether together to get another star. It's something we talk about in this podcast all the time with their kind of trajectory. But that's not really Devon Booker's fault. Like it's not his fault that the son's traded so many picks for Kevin Durant. It's not his fault that they've mismanaged various contract negotiations. - In so much as he pushed for it. - I don't. - I mean, he's allowed to push. - Yeah. - Like you can push, you can influence. Like I just don't really hold that around his neck as something to like, oh we should think of Devon Booker differently because he played with Kevin Durant. - I do think at his level, I do think you get to, it's almost like an actor or director that gets to a certain point and they could choose their projects. He chose to take the money. And I think a lot of players would do the similar thing in that situation, especially because a lot of guys just assume they'll take the money and then they'll go elsewhere. That seemed to be his era of player. But I think like the shooter ones, the ones that can like navigate an industry in the way that like anybody can in their career, typically can plot against that, can see that comment and make a different choice. And so I guess it's not the player so much as the choice is I disappointed in. Especially because like I like so much about him and the fact that he came from like the middle of the draft to basically become one of the foremost players of his generation. It's just like, it's a bummer that they ask him to do so much because I feel like there's another level to him. He's still young enough to be playing like very high level basketball. I just don't know where it comes. I just think there's a lot to respect about the way the Suns played last season. And if this season is gonna be another version of the same, we're a little pessimistic about that, but like being a hard-nosed committed team that is locked in on the details, that is playing the scouting report and then taking whatever Devon Booker and Jalen Green can give you, like I think there's absolutely a dignity in that. And to collect a huge paycheck while you do it, I really just don't have any problem with players prioritizing that way. In the same way that like if you're Jalen Brunson and you wanna leave money on the table, you can do that too. If you're Victor Wombanyama and you wanna leave money on the table, sure, go that route. There's no guarantee that way either. Like it worked out for Brunson, it doesn't work out for everybody. Like I think for a lot of guys taking the checks when it comes does make sense. - Yeah, could it be as simple as just like he has never really had the like the polarity in the who he is playing with and how productive they are and where on the floor they are productive? Because the original vision was way back. It was de-Andriate and it was like those two guys. And if you think about since then, even they were one of the major things about he and Chris Paul was that they got de-Andriate into it. Honestly, we're gonna look back and be like, that was a basketball miracle because if you look back at those playoffs about the way that they got him to toe the line and you know, salute and say yes sir and be where he was supposed to be, they got a lot out of him. Other than that, he hasn't really played with a super productive player on that side of the floor and that's kind of wild. Like not one, other than Aiden. - Is the best player he's played with in his entire NBA career, other than Chris Paul, other than Kevin Durant. Is it McCale Bridges? - Oh baby. - That's a tough tumble down the list. Even for someone is effective and useful as McCale. - Is it Dragon Bender, it doesn't get a nod? - Somehow I don't think so. Maurice Chris, no. - Maurice Chris? - Yeah. - Maurice Chris? - I thought it was Marquis. - Marquis. - Marquis, you're right, it is Marquis Chris. - Is it his brother and Maurice? - Yeah, it's what it is. - He's a pretty checksist. - Well here's the thing. To the larger framing of this conversation, so much of it is just about like, where is your point of reference? What are you judging these guys based off of it? So I was looking at other players you made to all NBA teams and at least like five-ish all-star games or more. And it's guys who we would be having these kinds of debates about. Alonzo Morning, Vince Carter, Darren Williams. Like guys who maybe had some injury troubles that derailed their careers or weird free agent decisions or trade decisions or got into it with teammates or coaches or whatever. it's like, they all have something kind of hanging over them. And I think what separates Booker is one that trips to the finals is like a real thing. That is, is going to be a nice kind of piece of his resume, even if, even though they didn't win. And then those two Olympic gold medals, I think, is, is pretty real. It's not the NBA, but it's adjacent enough. And it's like, I think proving yourself in that way with that crowd is a substantial basketball thing as you can put down. So someone call him Mitch Richmond with better marketing. What are we talking about? Mitch Richmond's in the Hall of Fame, right? Don't you, don't talk bad, if you talk badly about Mitch Richmond or Glenn Rice or any of these guys, I'm just not here for it. Glenn Rice, my God. He wishes he was a big dog. It's funny. That's Robinson. Well, I got thinking, did you say Glenn Rice? Yeah. Come on. Yeah. We're just blowing it. Can you tell we're five hours? You mentioned, I mentioned Alonzo. And I was thinking I was like, Malonzo did win the title, but I actually think about where he wasn't his career. He was a backup center example. Well, the suns did blow it the following year after the, the finals. Sure. It was a pretty memorable, like, pretty bad flame out considering they were very good in the regular. Oh, it detonated the team. Yeah. Yeah. The Lucas ascension just kind of like. Yeah. That was, that was the perfect awful storm for them. And he gave them an existential wake up call in a way that was reasonable at the time. But I just think, I don't know, I'm mentioning the heat. It's like, Booker is kind of a heady type guy. And it was like, if they had committed so much money to Janice, it's like, I, you just gave me a vision of like, man, I could not try to. Sorry, Sans Van, but that, that really resonated. Worst case, he has a nice house with an open concept. So you could do a lot worse. That's right. A hit hole candy area. Did you see that? Like where he would, you know, he like, there was a candy jars and they were playing games. I feel just in case Deandra came over. I mean, you got to entertain the kids. All right. Well, any other guys or things here? Because there's actually one guy I have I as a potential breakout, which brings us to our sponsor segment. This next segment is brought to you by Sam's club during the holidays. Everyone's in a club, the cool ons club, the not socks this year club, the food coma club. But every season, there's a team that earns its way into a club. Nobody expected. So this segment is about the newest members of the club spotlighting a team's newest offseason edition, not an offseason edition, but in his second year, mile watch. What are we thinking? It seems like there's a clear path for him to be a contributor with Mark Williams out. You reach a point, I think, in your, you reach an age, I think where you stop saying not socks. A certain, a certain quality of sock is, I love a sock worth getting. You buy a quality sock. You're set for a while. You're in a bad spot. You're, you're cycling through just low end socks. You buy a nice sock. I've been there. I've been there. Once you cross that bridge, we won't name any brand names because no free spot. And this is, it's a Sam's club. I want to keep us on topics. Sam's club only has great socks premium socks. I just think that the sun's problem is that they have a lot of socks on this roster. And they need something with a little more to it or a lot of socks. I know it sucks. It sucks. No, this is a perfectly fine team. But like, what they need, I think more than anything. And maybe what they're reaching for with miles bridges and some of these other moves is like, where's your pop come from? Right? Like, where is some standout athleticism? Where's some difference making defense? And they wanted that with Mark Williams, but he's only kind of that and he's only kind of available. And mile watch, like, for all accounts coming out of training camp and with the sun's like, people are really bullish on who he can be as a pick and roll player. The emerging chemistry, obviously with Devon Booker and Jaylen Green, but also come off the bench. Someone like Luke Knard, who is a different sort of ball handler and shooter combo than they've had in the past. With all due respect, you know, your grace and Alan types and whatnot. But I think there's just a lot of players on the sun's roster who can help prop up. Malow watch as he kind of submits himself as a pro. But from there, it's on him to figure out how to be a high level player figure out how to process the game to keep up week to week. And with all the kind of dizzying string of opponents that these guys have to deal with. Yeah, I mean, I can't sit here and act like there are no receipts that can be like pointed to for me with mile watch because I was worried about him as a mover and open space. I was worried about him like credibility as a shooter. A lot of different things. He walked, I mean, he answered a lot of those and, you know, address a lot of those concerns. And I just think that he's ultimately going to be a better player than Mark Williams. I think he's kind of already shown signs and he's more dynamic. Like I think eventually if he's going to be like a brook Lopez, he like one and a half to and brook got pretty up there with the three point attempts. I just think he's going to be credible in that sense. And he is gigantic. He's like even bigger. He just tries to dunk everything. I think that it might end up being a blessing in disguise that he ends up getting more running and more bites of the apple with it because he's still he's a baby like in each gigantic. Yeah. Well, every breakout squad has to earn its spot. And during the holiday, Sam's club is the club that helps you earn yours, whether you're part of the deal hunters club or the last minute gift givers club. Sam's club has the name brands you want without blowing your budget. Come join us. Sam's club. All right. Any other guys or things perhaps that you guys want to hit with the Phoenix sounds before we get out of here? I feel like in the spirit of Malawatch as well. Let's just play Rochelle Fleming. And I think he might play by default because they don't have many forwards who can occupy that spot. But they just need to be chasing after those like higher upside give you something surprising kind of elements of their rotation. I think, I think especially with where they might met out offensively and defensively. That's probably more along the lines of like creator talent though, right? And then, you know, if if Fleming can take a step forward, speaking of what we were talking about earlier about how they just are getting torched by mobile big guys. You can, you know, the Katie's, the Lucas, the even MPJs. Those guys, if they can between Fleming Pete and then importing Miles British, shore that up a little bit. I guess that would probably be more of a defensive question, but that would that would help them take a step forward. Also, the team underperforms for whatever reason, you know, whose fault it will not be Jordan Goodwin's because he's innocent. He's never done a bad thing in his life. I mean, they need guys that can handle the ball. Yeah. And also guard the fuck out of people. Like I want, I want them to hold on to that spirit as much as possible. And we'll see to what extent it's true. I just, not to make it all about this, but I feel like the more a team invests this much in Jalen Green, the harder it is for me to take them seriously. And so part of what made the suns impressive and kind of honestly got us into the mid off debate in the first place was the version of them that predated Jalen Green when he was still sidelined and they were making it work. Yeah, that was the issue. That was the issue and really the only reason I lost, which I'm still waiting on my shirt, though. I'm still still aware. I know I need to get on that maybe five years from now. Shocked you didn't bring it with you. Maybe Minnesota. You got time. It's the type of thing that requires just more work that I'm willing to invest in it. Okay. You know, like you really have to find somewhere that does the designs. Then you have to come up with something. If anyone out there, I think I saw someone suggest that they would do it for us. If anyone wants to come up with the design and then just sends me the link where I could then buy the shirt, I will buy that person a shirt and send it to them. I want to be very clear. I don't accept any shirts from anyone who isn't you. You have to do this. Yeah. This was between you and me. You can't. How did I by winning end up with the burden of having to do work here? You created the terms of the bet. I know I didn't. But this is also empowering. You get to make it whatever you want. It's true. That's a good thing. So don't look at it as work. Look at it as a labor of humiliation from Rob. I like that. Yeah. Well, racial slur in there. Okay. There are limits, you know. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? That's the end of part two. The preseason NBA power rankings. We'll be back with part three on Friday. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Bill Simmons for stopping by. We might see him again at some point later in these preseason power ranks. We'll see. But for now, we'll talk to you next time. [BLANK_AUDIO]