Preseason Power Rankings, Part 1 | Group Chat

Hello and welcome to Group Chat, I am Justin Varyer in "Sitting Before Me". We got Rob Mahoney, we got Jay Kyle Man, we have assembled here in lovely Los Angeles, where it is still as hot as balls, despite the fact that we are in the beginning of October. Why? I don't know, but we do this because the preseason power rankings are here, it's what everyone's been waiting for, they just have been checking in, "When are they going to happen?" It starts today, baby. See, you say you don't know why, but we know why. The season demands it, the content demands it, this is our time, and so why would we be doing anything but congregating here in this lovely studio, seeing your distinguished faces before each other? This is my favorite time of year, frankly. Justin's distinguished wave that I was asking him about in the front of his hair that is so distinguished and so effortless. Yeah, I mean, lately, you're reacting like I shouldn't have said that, Rob. This is my industry secret. Well, it's not even his your secret because if you tried to replicate it, you would fail. This is not a thing you can just artificially make. Right, I mean, it's been hard to sleep lately, I have to say because of the pounding on my front door, my family has been really disruptive because people want these goddamn rankings and it's been tough. I got a die schedule. I can find that and you guys before we get started and it's cathartic to finally just release, you know, honestly. Well, there's a lot going on here because we're going to do six of these episodes and I think they're going to be longer than ever before and they were already quite long. We're going to do five teams per episode. We're going to start from the bottom, work our way all the to the tippy top there. We'll do the first five today. Wednesday are going to be the next five and the, I believe Friday is going to be the next five. We also have some business to attend to because we are doing another live show. Look at that. They're putting us in front of actual people with no edits or stop downs. I mean, speaking of the clamoring, you know, the uproar has been significant so much that the ringer events team is like, we got to put these guys back on a stage. It's just, there's too much demand, frankly. Yeah, who better to heal this nation than group chat. And we're going to start, you know, in Minneapolis, you know, pay, I don't know, is, I don't know the venue yet. Is it Paisley Park on, like, I'll tell you right here. The live show is Tuesday, October 27th at the varsity theater in Minneapolis. Tickets are on sale now. And you could find all the details at the ringer.com/events. We didn't talk about this, but I feel like we should really entice the people here, not just to come to the show, but to come from great distances. Like we got some, we got some kind of rewards, some kind of prize for like, if you, if you're coming from states away, bring stubs, I want to see proof. I need to see a plane ticket. But if you're coming from Iowa, if you're coming from, you know, pay for that. You know, I will, I will personally expense some kind of prize to whoever travels the farthest distance to come to the group chat live show in Minneapolis on October 27th. Geographically a little bit of a, of a warp there where I was looking at the distance between Kentucky. And I can't figure out quite where it is. You know, it's one of those places where it's, it's, it's a very short direct flight from me. But then I have this thing where as an east coaster heavy quotes, I get out in the west and it's like, what, it takes three hours to fly from there to there. I can't, I can't quite calibrate. I feel like the maps are pretty straightforward on this. It's the perception of the distance traveled. You know, all right. Well, wherever you are, get to Minneapolis, October 27th, tickets on sale now. ringer.com/events. Also, last piece of business, expanding the group chat universe, just slightly. We're going to have a news show. It's called group chat explains, find it on YouTube. It might be out as we're recording this right now. It is explain your videos about all of the pressing topics that you have about the NBA. So if it's not there, as this is out, I'm sorry, but we'll get there eventually. And it will be there throughout the season. So check for that. Anything else you want to get to? Any new business? We got enough business to take care of. Okay. Let's get to the pod. Okay. Why don't we take a quick break and we come back? We'll start the preseason power rankings 2026, 2027. This episode is presented by Sam's club during the holidays. Everyone's in a club. The last minute gift givers club, the cool aunts club, the food coma club, whatever holiday club you're in, Sam's club is the club that helps you pull it off. You need to get a meal on the table in under two hours done shopping for the brands they want like Dyson and Lego without blowing your budget. Check and check. Sam's club helps you make the most of the holidays. Come join us. Sam's club. All right. Same process as usual. I believe this is what? Like probably the fifth time we're doing this fifth annual preseason power rankings. We really toiled over this exercise. We're like, what unique topic that nobody else in NBA podcast thing? Can we do? And we're like preseason power rankings. We did invented. Yeah. We didn't invent the power ranking. We did invent podcasting about the power ranking. That's right. You know, it's a real Chick-fil-A kind of situation. Yeah. Yeah. This is my first though. There you go. There's something new every time. New little wrinkle. I know every time. Including a new human. A true new human. And like, I mean, how are you feeling your first time going through training camp with us? Getting through the paces. You know, like, this is your proper media day. What's what's your outlook, Kyle? I think a wrinkle athlete describes me. I think, right? Like it's hopefully a good wrinkle. You know, sometimes they're the bad wrinkles. You look in the mirror and the process of time, you know, since you, you know, spiraling about how old you're getting. And then they're the good wrinkles, like some of these teams who have made brilliant segue here that have made changes and added to their offenses and tried to add wrinkles so that they're not so singular with these teams at the bottom that we're going to be starting talking about. Not a lot of good wrinkles to go around. I would just say that would be my starting point. I feel like doing this exercise every year, really crystallized for me what kind of podcast we make because we look at the data sometimes. Okay, like what episodes are working? What episodes aren't you look at the data? It's a very, very generous way. Sorry. Justin looks at the data and conveys to us the findings of said data. And the findings here every year are that this episode in which we talk about the five worst teams in the league is among our most listened to pods, which is like, this is how we find our people by talking about the Sacramento Kings. Well, this is exactly why I love the exercise because we're giving enough to every team. We're going to go in depth on all 30 teams. We might not talk about some of these teams for weeks, months. We'll get there eventually for yourself. Yeah. You will talk a lot about them. I will pretend and not a lot. I think there's, I think there's comedy in the doldrum. It's a, it's a combination of this. I think there's comedy in the, in the, in the basement of the NBA of the, there's obviously the point and laugh factor, but then there's also the hopefulness, the reset button, which I find to be some of the most fun fan bases to interact with it, you know, me starting out covering the draft when I got into this field. That was the most fun I had was like, they're so hopeful and happy. And it's like, so you get a little bit of combination of the, the fun, funny depression and the hopefulness at the bottom. Group shot is for the people, including those in the greater Sacramento area, because we're starting at number 30, the Sacramento Kings. You guys both had them as your number 30 team. I did not. I have the next team that we're going to talk about. I did so because as I was weighing, who would be the absolute worst in the league next year. I was like, the Kings, if they have anything, it's shame. And if anything, they prioritize that more than other teams that were taking last year. They, they weren't worried about losing some of those late games and ultimately slid in the lottery rankings as a result of that. I think the same thing that could happen this year, where they just win a couple of stupid games. And that's why they're the number 13. And that's why they prioritize shame is that was kind of the what I have shame. I guess I would say they don't suppress it in order to influence their lottery balls. I would still say not enough. Like you look at the roster that they returned, even with some of the changes they made, and it's like, this is still step two of a 56 step process back to prosperity to the extent that the Kings have ever been prosperous. And so it's like, there's such a long time horizon for this team. They're going to be quite bad. I just, I don't really see any reason to defend them from being the 30th best team in the league. I think they've earned that. I think they've justified it with the roster that they've assembled here, which is not only cobbled together with a kind of holdover veteran, but the specific like young point guard factor is fun to watch. Like there's a cuff. I think we're all excited to see what he can do as a pro, but you can't expect teams led by any kind of young point guard to be good out of the gate or competent out of the gate. Like he's has so much to learn about how to run a team like this. Oh, yeah. You got all of that. I mean, that's the positive side. I had a written out big bullet written down in my notes for the Kings of just asking the question, is there any world where we're wrong about the Kings where we're seeing this incorrectly? What would have to be off for us to be wildly wrong about the Kings? And to what extent is that even possible? And I kind of came away. The only thing that I was coming away with was, it's possible that by product of subtraction, that they are more focused, which can be a positive in and of itself in the NBA where you get Russ, you get, you get to, I was joking with Rob about. I think you said, Demar was the most insistent player. Is that the way you said it with Zach? It sounds like some bullshit. I was saying, I'm going to be honest with you. And I was like laughing as I was probably walking my dog, whatever it was. And I was like, it's funny that the Kings last year had two of the most insistent players of the past 20, 25 years on the same team. I think you could argue that Demar's was a little bit more forgivable, I guess, at the end of the day than Russ, or at least more workable, judging by the fact that he's still playing. And then they had, you know, Russ just sucks up a lot of oxygen. I think if you remove those two guys and the way that they play, and you just say, all right, Darius, this is focused around you, just that focus in and of itself is a tiny baby step in a direction, whereas they're bad with old players, which is just kind of a form of basketball flailing. - So what's interesting about this team is despite the fact that they only won 22 games last year, it's virtually the same team coming back, despite Damar and Ross not being there. - That's a significant change. - They didn't really add much, is the thing. They added two rookies, A-Cuff, Caroban, but their only big like splash was our guy Ben Simmons. - Well, they might not even make the roster. - First of all, the mobile racer that's happening here. - Oh no. - You can't come on this pod and pretend that Jonathan Mobo is out here. - It has to be mentioned, Mogbo has, and I have to be accountable for drafting Mogbo. Anyway, we move forward, yeah. - But I think part of that is because they just couldn't move on from a lot of the veterans that they have signaled that they are going to move on from eventually. But they're just all hanging out here being like, "Trader quest, traitor quest and nobody cares." And so, so bonus is back, Levine is back, the Andre Hunter is back, probably because nobody wants him as well, Monk is still here. And so it's a weird like we have moved on, but all of these guys are still here. And if anything, it might be tough to even move on this season 'cause who wants these guys? - Yeah, that's why I'm tempted to say like I was looking to just moving on from Westbrook and DeRosen should create a lot of opportunity. But all of those guys still being there, Demonis Abonus coming back, hopefully full time this season, he's more accommodating than either Russ or Demar are as a player, but he's still just like. - Just a mildly. - You want to run offense through him. You want to leverage what Demonis Abonus does. Well, whether you want him to be a part of the Kings or you want to showcase him for a potential trade. And so it's like, yes, DeRosen Acuff is going to get a chance to do some things. Hopefully Keegan Murray can kind of get settled in his career. You would love to look at this somewhat young-ish portion of the roster and say, okay, these guys are going to get real cracks. And I just am not even sure that's the case and that. So that's what leaves me wondering, are the Kings not only going to be very bad, but also very depressing as we kind of continue to just toil along with the same old, same old version of this roster that doesn't work, that nobody wants, that nobody wants to pick up the straight pieces of going one more time around. - Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting thing where the Kings have failed. We'll see Acuff, we'll see what he can pull off. And if he can end up being like a star, a centerpiece player, improve that and earn that. They've done a pretty good job in the margins, later in the draft, adding guys that are just at least positives, they're kind of minor positives. If you think about Maxime Raynode, who I liked in that draft class, I think that he's kind of stuck around and has a chance to step forward, learning from subonus. I think it's a really interesting situation for him to be in as a player. And then they did a good job on earthing Dylan Cardwell, a guy who was like a really mobile defensive, like high energy rebounding guy, and then they added these guys in manual sharp and then Alex Kareban, like I was saying. So they're in an interesting position where they're kind of offloading. Hopefully that's their mindset. It's just continuing tried to offload some of these higher salaried veteran guys who don't necessarily fit in the future. And they vary in terms of degrees of desirability around the league. Obviously, Zach Levine, we'll see what happens with that. But subonus, I would expect to be, he will interface with Acuff well. And I think that he's in a position to kind of try to rehab his trade value, I think. And there are, you know, even though the market's not crazy for him, I would think that he's incentivized to try to play pretty well. - Well, that's a good segue to our existential question. Or is it an essential question? We never really figured it out. But every team is going to have one key question. And we're also going to name some guys or things. Rob has offered to sing guys and things in the vein of guys and dolls. But I don't know if you want to break that out now, say it with a later pod. - I'm gonna sing guys and dolls. - I'm not familiar with it. - I'm gonna wait for the, for the check. - See a bunch of guys and things. - What did you say? - You said it to me, I'm just going to do it. - I don't want it. - You clearly have no shame. - After that, Denilo Gullinari impression you did. - Well, here's the first existential slash essential question, which is basketball death pool. So who goes first? The Andre Hunter, Zach Levine, Malik Monk, the monosib bonus for guys. I think you guys would all assume maybe not there for the future. Some of which might not be there for the present. Which of these guys do you see going first? - So when you pose this question to us, I really thought at first you were asking us to predict who is going to die first. Like who is actually gonna die? - Can we talk about that? - We can actually talk about it. I think it's a little rude to put that on to people we don't know, these NBA players. But Justin, I have to say, it let me down a rabbit hole. I have a question for you, which is would you like to know when you are going to die? - Oh, no. - Well, I have bad news, I have the answer. - Okay, have you been working in your star chart here in Los Angeles? - No, I'm not quite fluent in that just yet. But I did find a death prediction calculator. - Jesus Christ. - I entered, I'm not gonna name which one. They don't deserve any extra business. I entered your birthday. I made some educated guesses about your lifestyle. I am happy or unhappy to report that you will die on March 1st, 2063. At the ripe age of seven, I think like 76 years old. - That's about right. - That's a good run. - What did you take care of? - I think so. I actually saw something recently where someone was 40, maybe it was a dumb Instagram. I'm sure it was a dumb Instagram. They're like, on average, people only live 36 more years. And I was like, holy shit, that's all I got. And so that seems to be spot on there. - Right, right on the money. One of the questions that it asked to try to profile this was like, do you agree with the Kings? - Well, I mean, that would take years off your life clearly. But what is your general outlook? And I pick the most extreme pessimism and anxiety possible. I just figured that checked out for you. The actual answer I think is Diadria Hunter. He's owed the least money. (laughing) Not that he will die first, but it's like moving. - If he dies, we're gonna have to see. - We're gonna have a lot to answer for. I wanna be clear, I'm not saying any of the Sacramento Kings will actually die. - Well. - Any objections to this framing? Point them at Justin Varrier. - I mean, I don't know if you guys have caught wind of this hot mic situation from some Kings reporters. And it sounds like Zach Levine's wife is quite mad. She's hoppin' mad. Could there be a sort of like something happen there? And then Zach Levine gets roped in and there goes Zach. (laughing) - Wow. - I think if the Kings had the ability to just trade Zach Levine, they would have done that. - That would have happened. - You're not getting this analysis about potential members. (laughing) - Good Lord. We're talking about death. I love this path. I think we should say all right. - We gotta get you off the internet. - No. - I know you're trying to be like a little more hands-on and you're in your home making these days, but we need to go full off the grid. We need to get you in a cabin in the woods completely detached air gaps all around except for league pass, I think. - I have to admit that I'm definitely guilty of being like Tommy Lee Jones in "Men in Black" where when I'm walking down the street of NBA basketball coverage, I will occasionally jump off and check TMZ NBA or just the like news ranks. Just there's some hilarious context you can get. Like Justin just said, that might come into play. You never know. - Jummer things have happened. - I can't even pull up my like following. What's the four U-Tab on Twitter? I can't even do that in public anymore, I'll be honest. It's just Instagram, you mean? - Yeah. - No, no, on Twitter, where they have the two tabs. They have the one you're following and one that's four U that's just the algorithm spinning out, which they think you like, which is exactly what you like, by the way. - What does it think you want? We can't talk about that. (laughing) - I give a Twitter anymore, I give them credit. I give the algorithm credit sometimes where I'm like, yeah, that was right. That was a good call. But I've noticed they, if you watch the first one, they're like, here's a seven minute thing and I'm like, we're not doing that. So, I don't know. - All right. - Basketball, right? - Great digression. - You're saying Deandre Hunter goes first because of the contract. - Yeah, he's not being paid like $50 million. He's an expiring for this year. I don't think Deandre Hunter is like super useful, but you could see teams in a certain range saying, okay, we just want like a little more length on the wing. We want a different kind of forward from what we have. So let's try it for Deandre Hunter. Just like the calves did. Just like the kings did. Other teams have talked themselves into this before and so I can see one more doing it. - Yeah, the big FUNK might work for us. Energy with Deandre Hunter. I think that one will just kind of linger. That's the bulls. I don't know why I'm looking at that blankly. I think it'll be ecebonus just because I think that he does have suitors and there are some teams out there that I think could talk themselves into that. I was trying to remember who gave him the current deal. Like which executive gave him? Because he's making 48 million this year. And 51 million next year. Do you remember was that, was that, which regime? - Money McNair? - Or was it one that must have been McNair? 'Cause he did sign an extension with the king. Sounds right, bonkers. It's just bonkers because he's one of those really interesting players where it's like, you see the clear positives. He's only 30 years old, I think. It's like you would think that he still has some good, you know, production, but it's all of his positives are countered with just these terrible negatives with the shooting and the defense and stuff like that. But I would think somebody could take like a short-term flyer on him and just eat that money. I mean, for the record, I don't think the shooting is that bad. I think it's the well articulated limitations are so much more about who he is protecting the rim, who he is defending in space. Like all of that stuff really holds you back if you're a playoff team striving for the next level. But the case for the king said not be 30 is that Demonis Abonus will hopefully play more than 19 games. And if he does that, like someone is just really good and we always talk about the limitations, we always talk about the weaknesses. He is wildly productive and wildly successful. And I think Kyle, to what you laid out with A-Cuff, like helps a lot of other players draft off of his handoffs in a way that can be really beneficial to them and the way they operate around the floor. So just having Sabonus back will help. But I hear what you're saying about a team kind of convincing themselves of getting to the next level of whatever you're saying. whatever it is they're trying to do by bringing in a center like him. So bonus is definitely the most valuable player of this bunch. My question is which team would trade for him in this situation? I think Charlotte has come up in the past with rumors, but as they encounter injuries, we'll talk about them in future episodes, like they also traded two of their better players in order to get draft picks back, seems like they're taking a long view, would they really rush to do so when they can sign them in two years in free agency if he does hit there. And so for that reason, I would say it's tough. I think he's also more valuable to the Kings now as Rob and you laid out. And so I would put him on the lower end of this. I actually think the hardest one is Malik Monk, just because he's the exact type of player who isn't getting paid in this environment. He's making over 20 million in the next two years. I want to say it's Zach Levine for the sole reason that I think that they would be willing to pay him to go away at this point because he definitely impacts, I think, whatever they're trying to build the most. Now, he's making close to 50 million just this year alone, but I don't see him getting traded for that reason. I don't even know where you come up with the matching salary to get him on another team. I could just see midway through the season, he's injured and he just kind of just goes away. We either pay him to do so or he just kind of goes off into the distance. Just vanishes from view in some way. Yeah. He goes to his farm with the cows. Would you like to be paid to go away? Would you be okay with that? 100%. It really depends on who you are. I would be like, that would be nice, but I would be pretty deeply insulted. Kyle, don't buy this. He says that. He's so sensitive. This man loves the spotlight. He wants the attention. He just wants to deflect it. It pretend that he doesn't want it sometimes. Do you have no idea what you're talking about? It's interesting. It's an interesting thing where when a team is really woefully inefficient and has a misguided primary situation as the Kings have had recently, it has such a downstream effect because I was looking, you were right about some bonuses numbers. He's up in the 40s with catch and shoot and things like that, but Monk took way, his numbers came down on catch and shoots, which is something, that'd be like bare minimum. What I'd be wanting from him to Spackel, I know Spackel is going to come up again in these six pods that we're going to be doing. You know, he's you're the one saying, I do know that I'm in control of to push that button over and over again, but he is so lopsided towards contested catch and shoot. He's just not getting good shots and I think that has hurt his efficiency. It kind of makes you wonder if there's a little bit more to mine with him there or somebody. Somebody could look at him and say, that's an inefficiency in the optics of Monk as a player that maybe we could capitalize on if we have better structure. So I can see that happening. It's just a tough balance to shift if you are a Malik Monk type where your value internally has been like, I hit tough shots. I make shit happen coming off the bench and the starting line up, whatever it is. I mean, tomorrow was kind of a version of this, like a different flavor of the same thing, right? And your primary value is making the most out of difficult situations. It's hard to zoom out and be like, why am I creating so many difficult situations? Why am I settling for these opportunities when basketball could be easier than this? We're in an easy situation. You can relax. Yeah. Like, how's he going to respond to that with Denver is going to be fascinating. But from Malik Monk, this is why I mean, not to get too morbid with the death pool element, but like, he's just going to be buried in Sacramento at some point. Like, I think it's going to be hard for him to get out of this environment because the market on him has soured so much. Yes, those guys make 10 tops now. He's making double bet. All right. Guys and things. I almost said, guys and dolls. There's so many. Honestly, even that we haven't talked about, I am kind of optimistic about the Ben Simmons thing. I say that once. Let's go. I mean, you could probably find a word for word version of that quote from a power ranking we did five years ago as well. What's wrong with it? Here's what it is. I have no illusion that he is going to come in and shoot at all, that anything is fixed. Anything is changed about who Ben Simmons is as a basketball player. But the reason he wasn't in the NBA last season is because he was so hurt, he stopped being good at defense. And he loves fishing apparently. Well, I mean, we all have our passions. So I hope he caught the big one. I hope he did everything he wanted to accomplish out there. I just want to see like the all defense version of Ben Simmons again. And I hope he is healthy enough to bring that form to life and maybe not to quite that level, but at least to somewhat impressive levels. I'm no doctor. I kind of wonder the back thing, it's just, if your back is even something that you're thinking about as somebody who's supposed to have the, if someone that has the defensive expectations that he has, I just don't know that he can get to that level again. And then, and that doesn't even factor in the offensive quandary of having him out there in the conditions that it takes to have him be productive. I just don't, I'm skeptical of that. Maybe you get that in like very small bursts, but I don't know that wherever you're going to get like heavy load, the heavy load version of Ben Simmons. When he was coming off the bench, he's like, he's going to be in a supporting role to say the least. Also, the sea is nourishing, you know, for the soul and the body, the saltwater you're saying. Absolutely. Do you see Clay? Clay? Look like he'd been out on his boat. A little lot of sun. I mean, what's the point of buying one if you're not going to really put it in the time? Do you see Aaron Sorkin at the, he's, see, I don't think he's been out in the sun a single second. I just think he's been in a radioactive booth. He's high in the death pool. Also down there. Um, well, if you're, you're looking to go to your dermatologist here at Sorkin, please right. If you're looking to learn more about Ben Simmons journey back to the court, I can tell you that he did an E 60 in collaboration with landscape documentary that's coming out on the 18th of October. Is it titled? Being Bened. What's the runtime on that? Ben Simmons is back. 31. And he's got a story to tell. Oh, it hopes so. I am. He's looking like. You're going to make a multi-part docu-series like, they're, they're better be some story. That's why I think I'm a little bit more pessimistic. If you're, if you're setting this up, like, it just sounds like he probably needs money. He probably spent it all on like spearfishes, you know what I mean? Like big spears cost a lot of money. Gaming CPUs get pricey. Uh, wait, are, are spearfish a type of fish or you're saying spearfishing, fishing fishing and I've seen the experience for the spearfishing. You think he's out here just like harpooning shit like castaway style. Wow. I see that's, that's a documentary I'd fucking watch Ben Simmons harpooning things. Okay. I mean, you're welcome, Simone, the sick old soul. Yeah. All right. Any other guys or things? Is there any particular reason why Deandre Hunter should be starting on this team over Nick Clifford? And yet I expect that to be what happens, but like I, I don't really know any basketball things that Deandre Hunter does better than Nick Clifford at this point. I don't think it was a coincidence that basically any second Clifford was on the floor. The King's got better for it. Like his connectivity, his defense, I just like the way he sort of navigates the action and finds little ways to contribute to what everybody else is doing. I just, I don't know, other than putting Deandre Hunter in the window for any passers-by who happened to catch him on an 18.9. I don't really get why he would be starting for this team. I guess the Conor would be he just didn't play last year, so he didn't have an opportunity to disappoint a new team. And so you traded for him. You probably want to give him that opportunity and starting honestly at this stage of, of the NBA, it really just goes to guys who have, God paid enough or have earned a certain level of their career in order to earn that respect. And so that's probably it. Don't team you up to talk positively about Nick Clifford because I will take the bait every single time. I think we should. What are we doing here if not that? I just did the same age. God, they might be. He's like 24. Yeah. No, I mean Clifford just does a wide array of things really well. He shoots, he grew into a pretty good playmaker by the time he entered the NBA. So I think any, any scales really well, I don't think that he has like self sabotaging ambition about who he is. So I think you're right. When he comes out there, it's just like hit open shots, granted there aren't a lot of, the more open shots that they can create, like I wouldn't say that a cuff is like an elite playmaker, but he's a pretty solid game manager. So I think the sanity that we were talking about in the opening of just like removing the insanity of some of the guys that they, that they, you know, departed, shipped off whatever it was. I think that Clifford could benefit from that. Well, especially if, if you're saying with a cuff, he's not a first order playmaker, then you want that facilitation from a guy like Clifford, like as far as the younger prospects on this team, who makes sense with the Derrius a cuff that I understand. Nick Clifford is that guy, whereas Maxime Reno is interesting and promising, but like, I think he really benefits to be honest from Sabona's coming back, not just like the overexposure of having to play as much as he did last season, but he needs to figure out can he be the sort of hybrid 4.5 who can cross match enough to protect himself defensively, to still make an impact on games that matter. And that's going to be a longer path for him, but I think there's reason enough to believe in who he is as a post player, the kind of touch than Vanessa, he showed down there. Obviously, what his length can do for you. I'm hopeful for Maxime Reno, it's just that that's a project. All right. Number 29, we have the Milwaukee Bucks, a team that I ranked last in this exercise. I have a little bit of buyers or more there, just because throughout media day, which just happened the day before this, as we're recording this, just seemed like there's a lot of guys here. There is depth. And as we've seen in recent years, depth does has a way of stacking regular season wins. They don't have picks. And so there is no real reason to tank it out for the Bucks. Having said that though, it really is just margins. If they're not 29th, if they're not 30th, then I think they're going to be in this bottom 26th tier, like somewhere from there on down. What about you guys? I'm going to stand on the Bucks just going into the season. This is a lot of guys that do have that depth that you described. I guess my hang up is like when that depth has absolutely nothing to do with itself. And all these players don't seem to have any kind of inherent synergy at all. What is that depth really by you? What's driving that thought though? Where do you see an absence? What are they lacking? I mean, obviously shot creation for one. You lose the honest. You're going to lose that kind of downhill drive. But then you look at the supplementary pieces that are here, the real keys that are brought in and the way that in a king's-esque way, the opportunity kind of devours itself. It's like when you have can't like cannibalizing minutes among Ryan Rollins and Braden Burries and Kevin Porter Jr and Tyler hero and Casper as you're like a chowness like that's a lot of guys who need time or we'll be expecting time And so that's why I wonder it's it's a really hard sell for me if your team is very deep But also very bad and I expect the bucks to be bad because it's like you can sell the 13th guy on a playoff team You're not gonna play that much like you're not in our regular rotation, but wait wait your turn and you will have a time Can you tell the 13th guy on the bucks like wait your turn as we roll off eight losses in 10 games? Like it's just a much harder sell so it's like disease of less The disease of least frankly. Yeah, yeah disease of absence of direct I don't know whatever. I don't know what this is. This is a an aside my brain always wants to say Yakuchonis to the tune of Amadeus the song Yakuchonis Yakuchonis that's a that's what you say amadeus your time at the Simpsons Amadeus Well, they're no, that's Dr. Zayah. Oh, that's Dr. Zayah. Yeah, but the actual amadeus Wow. Yeah, they're parody. This is I'm aware is here Anyway, some Simpsons me out there. We'll crack on that for me. I guess I Ranked them a little higher Because When I initially was thinking about them I was I was down in the basement with you guys and as I kind of was going line by line and looking at the talent and the other teams here They're at the bottom. I'm like there are a lot of good prospects here that we can get into the kind of guys at the top Because they do have some older players that are going to have new opportunity and I think that some of that could work I just I just think that they're going to be a little scrappier than people expect because there are some solid NBA players and some of the Some of the things that were going on with the heat spatially with high-main with Yakuchonis at the end Yakuchonis Yakuchonis Hurt them like the lack of playmaking Tyler hero was out for a long time last year. I think him coming back is going to be a positive thing You have Ron wrongs. You have brain brain berries. You I they're just more Prospects here and then another one I wrote down was I kind of think who's my jang showed some things like a times like he he showed some some Upside in positivity So yeah, there's they're just more pieces here than I think that the nets have or the bulls have or the Kings have so well I mean, I think you made the case there. This really is the guts of last year's heat team and they were much better than the 30th or 29 team in the lead They weren't very good. They won 43 games. They kind of mirrored in the middle. I mean, they're the guts without the best player on that team Sure, maybe the two best players on that team depending on the night, but guts can still get you something Especially, but this is like if a lot of teams might be if you just had the gal bladder. What is that? This is two guts. This is kind of like the saurmon like slime two guts kind of a resident evil. Yeah, they're just climbing together and A rat king. It's a little bit and they're stood up and we're like, what is that I don't like this? It's like it's the bucks No, this is the first I didn't realize this that this past season was they've been in the playoffs nine of the last 10 seasons The past season was so this is an interesting. I know they're depressed, but pretty crazy run of success for the book Well, Bam wasn't really the offensive engine that really made some of that stuff go but tell that to 83 That that mind is that one game. It's true So there's there's something workable here They're not starting from the bottom. They're probably working their way from the middle Where can they go from the middle? I think it's the big question We're kind of circling their existential question, which is which book benefits the most from finally turning the page on Janus What do you have? I think it's Kalalware who was not a part clearly of that team that had Janus, but His experience in Miami seems so clearly to have run its course Erick Spolster did not trust him anymore and when that's the case There's just only so far you're gonna go as a member of the Miami Heat Which is a particularly bad look because Spolster has gone through so many guys of that vintage like Hassan White side was a productive Like human that played for him, you know and where could not get to that level the rehabilitation on Hassan White side in Miami from like We really don't trust this guy at all to if we prop him up just so other people might think he's good incredible That was quite the coup The side of hand was ridiculous the club wears I was a much more talented than Hassan White side may not be to expose liking or his want of like the Particular tendencies of a player, but I'm really hoping that over the course of this year The bucks get more and more comfortable with giving where like a lot of opportunity miles Turner is kind of like Not in his way, but around now and we'll see kind of how they want to sus out their starting lineup and who plays went in with whom but Clowware has to get an ample chance to not just do the stuff that it doesn't remember the Miami Heat which was space the floor a little bit rebound Roll hard to the rim a little bit, but like I mean let him try more because I just think the stakes for this team are gonna be pretty low Yeah Hassan and And Kaleil it's like they they all are kind of in that Christian Wood basketball charm school where you're like There's a lot of hypothetical possible good here and we want some of it to come out of the woods. I feel optimistic that that where can kind of Claw his way out of that, but I had it written down here. He he ran just his past season to I'll start with this thesis overall. He just needs to be more Useful in ball screens, because he ran 66 total ball screens with Tyler hero and he only shot six times So I that's crazy he just said it would help if he actually screened well that that's Contact that folds into what I'm talking about for sure And he just he needs to be more of an active room really needs to be more grit and these were questions for him coming into the league Like he just needs to get meaner around the basket not so many of these like back-footed leaning kind of hook shots where I'm I'm being leaned on by the defense or getting run off his line. He just needs to be he needs to kind of we criticized I remember earlier in the season last year like window Carter Jr We were just kind of like can you be one of these things for sure and that's kind of the situation that Kaleil wears in overall I think so I have Tyler hero for this one, which might be the easiest one on the board. I was my answer to okay 33 million dollar expiring contract and so he is at a crossroads moment as we were saying before the week monk This type of player certainly is getting depreciated in this market and so if he even plays well this season I could also see him taking a big haircut even to stay or for another team I thought it was pretty symbolic that the last thing that he did as a heat member was getting punched in the face by Bam and a bio the face of the franchise for the heat somehow a guy who's basically a Balsy score like known for his toughness and like playing the heat way Just like ran out of favor even with the fan base. He was injured a lot Obviously not the most efficient guy didn't really take the step forward that I think a lot of people even the big believers He ever did and so he is kind of at a moment where like he needs to change his game to add more Try a little bit more defensively or be a little bit more of a playmaker get guys involved, especially for this team Which needs it otherwise? I think he will go the way of the monks and some of these energy scores and he's looking at a career Is like a six-man again on a good team, which is where he started with the heat I want to go the way at the monks, you know I'm not taking that up myself. I mean it helps a lot of players Yeah, it really does channel the mind quiet the voice within I I think what's here? Like everything you're saying is true about what he could theoretically prove I'm just like flashing forward and trying to imagine anyone who doesn't believe in Tyler hero How would you come out of this upcoming year with like oh my perspective on him has totally changed because for this team That didn't even make the playoffs. He did X Y and Z now if he is like putting in true like yeoman's work Into the little parts of the game that aren't there. I guess but like he's I think he's just Tyler hero and that player is good And that player is useful, but if you're in you're in and you're out. You're out. I Think it's safe to say that this is probably maybe it's not safe say I expect this to be the most fun year of his career now whether or not I think you know him coming home if you look at him in like them the photo shoots and the media day stuff He just seems like he's having a great time like this is a new lease on life at his age He's gonna get to shoot the ball a lot like I think he's gonna These things are gonna all kind of be in favor for him to have a good time. She's crack you too I think I was a mic You ever do mug to tooth. That's a tough one. No, I expect him to have a really productive year But it's interesting your thing about him sliding like you think this is kind of a fork in the road for him in terms of Like who he is for his next deal It's probably the last opportunity He will have to do so without someone forcing him to do it And so really it's on him to start to expand his game I thought this that was really interesting So he makes the all-star team in 2024 25 so the season before last before he got injured His assist rate was the highest of his career 26.2 It ranked right along these players Franz Wagner, Dremont Green, Paulo, Bencaro, Domana, Sabona So bigs who are just willing good passers. Yeah, like that's where he's at He needs to like jump a level to someone who could actually be more of a willing ball handler type because That's what they need from that spot. Otherwise you are going to get shoehorned as energy score There's really no other path. Yeah, because he doesn't have the other supplementary skills That's what it is like if you're gonna be a first option score or even like a really high level second option score You got to be a fucking flamethrower out there or you have to be able to guard or you have to make plays or rebound It's like that stuff is all Sometimes there, but honestly a little lacking with hero and it's like this is where the bucks are right there in search of Their next guy the next guy who's gonna take them on the run Kyle is talking about where you're making the playoffs nine out of 10 years It's been a charmed life with Yannis and things are gonna get very different in Milwaukee Apologies to Bucks fans who have not only suffered the extended, you know pro long trade saga of Yannis getting out of town in the first place But now I mean if you're a younger Bucks fan that might be all that you ever knew and that's not the history of Milwaukee certainly or this franchise, but Where things go from here is so murky and so uncertain and it starts with Tyler hero, but I don't think it ends in any way with Tyler Hero. - It's interesting 'cause you think back about, you all talking about like the roles that he's best optimized in and I was pulling up his, I guess it was 1920, was that the bubble finals? - Yeah. - I'm trying to, yeah, I mean like his spot up in his like off screen three point shooting numbers were crazy. So it's kind of like, maybe he needs to be disabused about this idea of like, and I don't, you know, frown on anybody who pursues, you know, taking more, because those things equal money for his family. Like he wants to be a primary and if he thinks that's within reach, okay, that might be misguided or maybe he'll continue to find teams that'll give him that type of money and he doesn't win. But I don't know, like if you look at the guys on this team though, it's like, how is Ryan Rollins was ascended at points, you know, in the absence of the, of Yannis? I argue with Bucks fans that kind of pissed them off because of my brain buries optimism really weirdly. I was like, I think, I was like, I don't know why that annoys you all. I think I really, really am super high on brain buries. It wouldn't shock me if he starts at some point for this team. That was one of my big takes with them. So is that the needling? Like, what is it that drove you apart? Bucks fans, I love you. I really don't know why that annoyed them so much. I really don't, like, I think buries is incredible and it's gonna be an incredible two-way player for them. But just figuring out, and then the Kevin Porter Jr. thing, those guys, buries is the only guy that I could see cohesively coming in and being very productive in a supportive role to hero in a way that like Rollins and Porter Jr., it doesn't make his much sense to me. - And you're the guys or things you guys want to talk about, Taylor Jenkins. - Welcome back, back in the fold. - Yeah. - Good luck. - I guess he didn't make a lot of shit sandwiches, but what is the phrase, the idiom? - Chicken shit into chicken salad? - Is that the one you're looking for? - He made the salad with a lot of bad lineups and Memphis over his time. - Okay. - And so perhaps he could do a little bit of magic there. - I mean, it's a tough job, this one. Even if it goes well, again, it's just like a lot of juggling of egos along the way, I hope he can pull it off. - Why not, why not just sandwich? Like are we so health conscious now that we're all going to salads? - Well, it's chicken salad, so you can make a chicken, you can make a chicken salad sandwich. - A shit, a chicken shit salad sandwich if you want. - Yeah. - Yeah, I think that's the implication. - I'm just, I'm just trying new things guys. - You're just hungry. - Yeah. - Well, as long as there's no celery in it, I'm not really big on celery, so. - Don't you need a textural element though? - Just, just don't, I can do without it. - What a shame. - I'm fine, you know, in the shit. - That's fucked up. - I'm just gonna, yeah. - No, no grapes are chicken salad. - I mean, keep the grapes out of most things. Oh, I love a grape as a grape, but it's not a team plan. - You've a curry chicken salad? - I have a curry chicken salad. Doesn't eat a grape, but it'll tell you that. - The one guy I want to mention is Damien Lillard. He is making the third most on this team this year. - Good on you, dude. - Good on you, dude. - Tyler Hero, Miles Turner, Damien Lillard, who now plays for the Portland Trailway. - What a fucked up. - Turner and Killeuwares, what an incredible deal. - I know. - I think my main concern with this team more than any other is not the depth. It's Tyler Hero, the guy, it's Kyle Kuzma is here. - Yeah. - And I'm just a little worried that he's gonna continue to stop up a lot of minutes and time and opportunity away from these other guys. Despite the fact that that ship has sailed in sank a long time ago, he should not be a Milwaukee buck. He's trying to get on CNN money or whatever every day now. I assume he's going to be faking some injuries. - Was that what you quickly said? - I think he's gonna start for this team for how long? - Too long. Even if it's a week, it's too long. And so again, I'm looking at Killeuwares, I'm looking at Nate Aiman, I'm like, I want a chance for these guys to do something. And I don't really see anything worth competing for that Kyle Kuzma will solve. - All right, why don't we take a quick break and when we come back, we'll do the remaining three teams on today's hockey. - This episode is brought to you by Sam's Club. During the holidays, everyone's in a club. The last minute gift givers club. The cool aunts club, the food coma club. Whatever holiday club you're in, Sam's Club is the club that helps you pull it off. Need to get a meal on the table in under two hours? Done. Shopping for the brands they want, like Aura Ring and Kitchen Aid, without blowing your budget, check and check. Come join us. Sam's Club. - All right, number 28, the Brooklyn Nets, who some fans have tried to sell me on as having a higher ceiling for this season. I think the cases, and we're gonna talk about a couple of these teams, is that they aren't officially suppressed what they could do last season. And so, is there enough institutional know-how? Is there enough good coaching? - What a nice way to say tanking, I mean, it's. (laughing) But, were they undercorrecting, can they now overcorrect and win more games than we would expect, just because they're more dialed in than say an organization like the Sacramento Kings? - Well, especially when Julius Randall, for all of his Julius Randall-ness, is better than any player who was on the Brooklyn Nets roster last season, Michael Porter Jr. included. And so, from a pure talent perspective, bringing Julius Randall, you think so? That he's better than Michael Porter Jr. - Do you think Randall has more value than Michael Porter Jr.? - How upper are you on Mike's podcasting these days? - Well, I was gonna say the most. - I'd ever been down here, the most harmful field goal attempts that MPJ takes are like on his podcast. - I actually. - Shockingly. - Look, Mike Porter Jr. was really good for the Nets last season. Let's extend an olive branch here and say, they are in the same cohort as players. - 'Cause he looks a similar kind of podcast. - He's doing QC for his own, yeah. - You simply have to. - I just think if you're a team that has a chance to win, I think you look at those two guys, and I don't even think it's close. - Well, I have good news. - That's don't have a chance to win. - Well, no, I'm just saying if you were thinking of courting one of those two guys, if they made the exact same amount of money, I'm not trying to argue with you about a stupid thing. - This is a podcast. - I think MPJ, I would value him way above Julius very well. - Why wouldn't we argue about stupid things? I don't understand. - I just wanna know why he said that, that's all. - I said it because the best version of Julius Randall, the version that was occasionally there for the Wolves last season, even for extended stretches, is a really unique player, one that's really tough to guard, one that has a lot of defensive, like ability and application. I don't know that all that's gonna come out in the best healthiest way for the Brooklyn Nets this year, but the talent with Julius Randall has never really been up for debate. - Let me throw the needle here. I think Michael Portage Jr., more valuable player on the market, considering the player type he is. He actually shot the hell out of the ball the first half of the season. Unfortunately, then he started saying things, and one of those things was, I stopped trying after I did not make the all-star team. Now, the entire organization wasn't trying very hard last year, so who could blame him? But that's not the type of thing you wanna hear, and so he's kinda back to start, especially 'cause he goes into the season, an unrestricted free agent next year. So this is a real make-good year for him. Just Randall's just more critical to everything going on offensively, and I'm curious what sort of role he plays here, 'cause on the one hand, he's gonna occupy the ball a lot. On the other hand, they also brought in a ton of guys over the past two years to do that exact same thing. You'd assume Yeager Dumann is going to be there, obviously Michael Brown. And so, can he be the type of guy who handles that load, but is also willing to pass stuff in order to get these other guys, the reps that they're going to need to develop is my big question. - I'm gonna spin this in the most positive way I can, which is the most realistic environment in terms of running a team, is one in which one of the kinda stars of your team is kinda grumpy all the time, and you have to figure out how to play Kate him. - Me? - I mean, I don't wanna name names. But so, yeah, the idea for Yeager and Michael Brown, is of like, okay, we're gonna throw you out here. We're gonna try to surround you with some vaguely NBA-esque talent to see what you can do running an offense, managing this thing on your own, or as a duo, really. But also, how are you going to deal with Julius Randall over here to the side, sometimes grabbing the reins from you, sometimes needing to defer to him because he's having a hot night? That's part of the balance of being an NBA player that I think is actually really good for them to go through this early. - I just feel like there's some, what is it, Sandy Lyle from along, Kampali, like in that production of Jesus Christ Superstar where they's like, all right, I'm gonna play Jesus and Judas. Like with MPJ and Julius Randall, you have this thing of like, oh, there's this fun, wasn't it like a high school production? I mean, remember from the movie, anyway. Like, Yeager and Michael is a very fun proposition. Now, I wanna say, they ain't garden shit. That team is so wispy, they're like-- - Don't worry about it. - I'm pretty proud for tomorrow. - Paint touches, woo! - Through the moon, but it will be fun though. And it's kind of live dribble, all that kind of stuff. You just look at the way MPJ and Randall fit into that. It's like, when you said like supporting them or having them around, it's like those guys don't really do that. They have such insistent ways that they play. And I'm not trying to make it all about them, but it's kind of an inevitable thing. It's just an interesting thing, almost like the way the Sixers had the young guards that were really exciting and then just kind of the downer of the like, this and B thing, is it really on our timeline? And it makes you wonder like, are those two guys on the timeline with whatever the nets are doing? I would imagine not, but also the young prospects, they really whiffed. I tried to be optimistic on the Jome and Wolf, you know, Treyori thing. And it's like, I was looking at the way they played. It's like, and Siroff, fun players that are good passers, but if you don't get to the rim and you're not a great three-point shooting team or you're not, you know, you don't have that kind of gravity, they just have a lot of questions they answer, both old and new. - Yeah, it feels like this season is where the check comes due a little bit for Sean Marx, but he's just like, yes, you say that. Yeah, he has the pockets out like Monopoly guy style. He's like, no money. It's just, there needs to be something here that you could hang your hat on and it does seem to be like the long away a potential of their rookie or the guy last year who probably showed enough that we're keeping him around and giving them still reps. They have all these ball handlers. It just, what's the plan? And this year feels like the rubber meeting the road of like I need to see at the very least a runway to get to a team And I don't think they're at that point. I will say this though rather than trying to Upload a bunch of veterans and just make like a decent team They did the hard work of like staying on this path toward a rebuild if they got more Julius Randall types Then this would just be a failure in a couple of years But still like I just don't know where we're going I respect the fact that they at the very least are taking the long view I think where we're going is wherever Joe Manon Brown take us like that is a back court pairing I'm really excited about and the way that they could synergize on offense like the combination of driving and playmaking and shooting and like It just kind of fits on offense. I share Kyle skepticism on defense to say the least but if they can work as a tandem I think that gives you at least a place to go and then you can start to understand Okay, these are the kinds of bigs. We want to round those guys. These kinds of wings. We need to support them because right now Everything is so fluid and loose. It's hard to pin down even what the net should be chasing other than really good players They don't have what's the significance of the clax than departure to because I was kind of looking at the production that MPJ did have he didn't have like a Noticable spike in self-created offense like he really really shot the hell out of the ball and dribble handoffs this past like it jumped up You would think that there would not be a whole lot of room for it to jump up after playing with yokich because he's the the literal god of that sense, but Yeah, it kind of makes me wonder like is how is MPJ going to interface on offense with those two get with my kill and with Because it is going to be a different mode. I think it maybe day around sharp steps into that role a little bit I'm just kind of curious how how that all maps out. I mean day around sharp being penciled Then as a starter is a cool story like I don't know that he's ever going to be fully ready to be a Every game starter for a good quality team But he has a lot of stuff that he brings to the table that I like a lot of stuff that Nick Clxton showed at various points in his time in Brooklyn Like he will do some of that dribble handoff stuff or some of the kind of like passing out of the short role Also an incredible rebounder also just good enough as a switch defender to keep it interesting We'll see what day around sharp But I'm glad he's going to have this chance and have this job basically is his to lose That's the problem with the nets. They have a lot of guys that you would hope would be high level backups like just intriguing guys guys That like have something to them, but they don't have the core of what's going to be their next team It probably brings us to our essential question, which is MPJ whether or not he is a keeper or not or as you just trade I'm gonna start getting more and more assets for him. I think Kyle is right last year. Well, legitimate shot maker Was really good in the first half of the season was winning games for them was hitting big shots for them Looked like the type of player. He always said he could be but no one really gave him credit for because he was playing mine You know kitchen really didn't do the things that Michael Malone wanted him to perhaps that was an issue of Malone as well Because he's running up against players like this in the past I'm curious what you think do you keep him for the long haul? He's on a 40 million expiring contract or does he not fit the timeline here? I mean he clearly doesn't fit the timeline I think the only question is do you keep him to sign into his next deal to string it out a little longer and I'm kind of impartial in that issue I just don't see timeline wise When Jomine and Brown are your most interesting players. Well only 28 so I think the case would be that he could be a young veteran While the other guys come along maybe it's more so that he's gonna command this Like pretty penny very soon. Yeah, and that the other guys are expecting to come along are just such long-term projects Like like Ben Siroff is years upon years away from being anything if at all He even like we talk about no like Noah Cloney like he's Jesus Christ on this podcast. He's like pretty good And we hope he's gonna be good, but he's a project Simon the zealot at this point the best. I'd say maybe I don't I don't know if I'm going to go John the Baptist I was trying to yeah, I mean MPJ It's like I had this question that was a little depressing for me if I'm imagining I'm MPJ Uh Are you in a vastly different position if you don't have him if you're the nets really yeah, but like I don't I don't think so and it kind of got me thinking about Who do you like as a potential like shooter? Who could you see across the league? I have not prepped for this I've not thought like is there a team you think that's close that you could see talking themselves into adding him that could kind of Absorb some of the things that come with him because the nugget successfully did that for a while And got out of and the other thing with for me with the nets that thinks that they're going to move on from him is that if you three of your starters Who are your most productive players are not prolific down like they just don't drive to the basket like maybe Michael will prove that But he's a pretty skinny like movement shooter guy Yeg or just got caught in but like he didn't drive the ball the first like two or three months I'll season it all so I just kind of feel like an ambassador since they don't work And I was trying to think about who could maybe potentially talk themselves in MPJ So I think there's a lot of teams that could he strikes me as a prime candidate for One of your forwards or maybe even a star got hurt and we need to replace this shit on the fly Plug and play Michael board junior you're good to go or your team is so struggling for space out of the gate that his shooting really makes a splash for you It's why I keep coming back to Detroit over and over And you know you you can really try plugging in John Collins there I just think we're going to get to a point with the pistons where come January No one's going to be thrilled about the state of things and we don't even know what's going to happen with Jalen Durin yet But there's a lot of good and interesting players on Detroit's roster that could entice the nets if they wanted to make a pairing out of this At Detroit Golden State makes sense again. I know they sniffed around him last year He just the problem is he's a finishing piece as opposed to something as part of your core But his contract suggests he needs to be a core player and this is where you're seeing the second apron start to suppress the market of certain players And like I've seen a lot in this offseason going into training camps people pushing back against the idea of the second apron is doing this But clearly a player like Porter like can't get to another team because other teams are being more cap conscious about going over that set amount And so the nets they said explicitly Sean marks in at media day was like we're not in a hurry to do so I think because of reasons Kyle's mentioning, but also like where else is he gonna go next year He could be a free agent and honestly the free agent market is pretty dire like there really isn't anybody even on his level It's like tightly hero Michael Porter junior like obviously Porter is a much better player But who has the cap space to go do that especially as you're navigating these aprons and so It's a tough one. So I assume they'll just play it out But training for him is just like who's gonna find the matching salary to do that in the middle of the season It's so tough now. It's very difficult is there is is there a mood like I was thinking about the way studio Situations change with TV in the movies like from like the DVD era to now like worse and smaller movie I'm trying to think was there was there a leading star who was getting smaller movies made around them that is no long That was converted from a leading star in a smaller movie to like you're not really worth this You shift to kind of like a smaller TV I'm trying to think of somebody who was like demoted by way of the way got the big chance and then blue who was like the way the industry Change turn them into no longer I'm thinking like Taylor kitsch like you put him in John Carter And it's like nope back to back to television for you. What about like Jason Biggs because they're no longer making companies Maybe, you know, I don't know if he had a long way to do this But yeah, it's a question but you're right. It does feel like a different ballgame for a certain type of player. Yes Taylor kitsch and Jason Biggs thank you, but thank you both you're welcome Any other guys and or things we want to talk about with the Brooklyn nets You know, it didn't change much about their season But I did think Josh mine out was really good pickup for them to the point where I had me still doing this I wish not only you're still doing it Down the stretch of last season of which then that's where we're losing and trying to lose a lot I genuinely have the thought did they just take Josh mine out of the floor because he's too good because he's actually helping them too much And I I promise you we can find the tape that supports this we can find the support I just think look he was cast off by the Celtics. Clearly, he was not part of their plans They have a lot of supporting players. They're trying to invest time and space into But I thought it's just one of Brooklyn's most consistent players over the course of last season and if you want to compare him To the triores to the Drake Powell's like you just has popped more than those guys frankly Like who have been somewhat muted to date Josh mine not and Noah Clowney you they're hanging off of a cliff and you have to pick Yeah, well, I'm going for my not Justin's going for Clowney. We're gonna save them both my dive into the line You let one of them fall to their death. So you're picking mine out. I'm picking mine out in part because like I feel like Clowney is a Very interesting and fascinating player who may or may not be real in any way whatsoever But the thought of it I'm into it's my fantasy The only thing I want to mention here is that it feels like every single second year net's player has added 5 to 10 pounds of muscle Okay, and change their facial hair Situation and so I've seen a lot of speaking of my like for you tab which nobody should go into It's a lot of like look at my demon He's looking bigger now Just like no one treori with like slightly more definition and just like a pencil mustache. It's like My demon this somebody should write something about the science of the before and after all season photo Because I'll see you want to be like that's like moisture and lighting also I just wanted to write about the science of just a database for you What amount of money with what about what amount of like Spotify bonus would get you to like divulge live like we get We screen mirror your phone. Yeah, and we go through it on the pod. What amount of money would it take less than you think? Is the thing like or is talking about should we do some like group chats supplemental content? Should we do this group chat explain series like we have the never-ending spring of content Which is just every week you show people you're for you. You explain to us like why you think that's there Whatever it is. What what brought you to that point and what needs to be blurred what percentage? Well, I'm happy to talk about it. Someone wants to put the money on the money. I'm willing to pony it up myself All right, should we move along number 20? the Los Angeles Clippers, a team that I was more of an optimist on before media day hit. I assumed that there was enough veterans who don't care about the situation going on with quiet, just need to be playing for their next contract. And the Clippers do have a knack of finding these guys on the fringes, defensive mind wings, who are just contributors to winning basketball, Chris Don, Derek Jones Jr., Rui Hachemura, Max Struse, my guy. I'm in L.A. Let's hang out, brother. They just have a lot of like solid dudes. And I was like, oh, if Derek's Garland is healthy, they'll be fine, right? They won't be just the drugs of the league. Unfortunately, media day rolls around. Brandon Ingram is out. Conan Neaterhouse are still recovering. Okay, first of all, Brandon Ingram is not just out. He is a partially torn Achilles. Yeah. And I have to say, as far as all the media day traditions go, the like surprise injury is by far my favorite. Like I don't want Brandon Ingram to be hurt, but it's just like, it's such a nuke to drop on the table for a team that's already going through such incredible turmoil. That's not a partial one that you just kind of press forward with, right? How do you it? How does your brain go out there knowing like, I don't it is. I really don't know. I just the degrees of that. Well, I think you're from a sports doctor. I don't know. The good thing is apparently he got the surgery in May though. So everyone knew about this except for the public. Great. In May. And so like it's supposed to and the fact that it's a partial tear is supposed to take six months fewer than a full tear. And so he could be back as soon as like October and November, to somewhere before the turn of the calendar year. If there's a reason for him to play. And that's the question. How many of these guys are going to get rushed back because in addition to him and Neaterhouse or Jordan Miller is also recovering from a torn rotator cuff. Bradley Beale has inflammation. But brother, we all had this nation. Once you get to a certain point, that's not a real thing. So there's a lot of guys that they're going to be waiting for like they just might not have the bodies completely. I think especially at the forward spots like you take Ingram out of that mix. And he was kind of holding the whole thing together at least the prospect of him. And certainly last year was like having Kauai in there as a much better version of the same thing. But without either of them. Brewery Hachemura now needs to play 45 minutes of game. Derek Jones Jr needs to play every second that they can possibly get from him. Boba Miller. I guess you're just like a relevant rotation player for this team because I don't know who else they're going to roll out there. I love Boba Miller. I think you will come to love them as well. I look forward to it. But I don't look forward to watching the Clippers play. You'll like him. I was excited about Boba Miller studying at the feet of Nicholas Batum like a like a like a student. Have I told you all about my like superstition about Achilles? I probably comically shouldn't say this out loud. Well now you simply have to for the sake of my superstition about Achilles injuries is really is really ridiculous like I bought a pair of Jason Tatum's I just I got I don't know why I like the shoes. He tours Achilles and I like never wore them. I was so super I was like I don't like that. I had a DeMarcus cousin's Pelican shirt. This is from a long time ago before I was covered in the evening. He tours Achilles and I stopped wearing it. It's probably should go to a goodwill. I don't know. Is that healthy or my I don't it's I actually think this is very healthy. This is the one thing. Look at for us as like weekend warriors. If I can just get through my recreational sports playing life without that one injury. That's all I'm hoping for. I will die on my shield in every other way. I just don't want that one of my friends. I hadn't talked to in a while on the phone. I called I was on the way and he was he was like up don't care. You're Achilles. I was like why the why would you say you know it's it's it's the yips like just don't mention it anyway. Can't talk about it. So I feel like those guys need your support then more than ever. You should be wearing it in order to bring the goodwill back for them because you're champion DeMarcus cousin. You're saying hey guy you see me out on the streets of New Orleans. I got you. That was Kyle and but the fact they didn't get it. That's why his career got to real. I think that was it. You know you went from Kentucky booster to just throw into Marcus cousins overboard. Yeah. I was going to other than I don't know what other I mean Struce and Darius Garland reunited. I had that run down. Nice chemistry. 253 field goal attempts by Stoots from 2324 on and yeah Garland assisted on a lot of those. So that that's one little wrinkle they could have. He's going to add it. I just don't know what the overall direction is of the team. I mean keep walking. Yeah. I mean hell. Like they're going to lose all these future picks that they're even out this pick which I believe is going to end up probably going to okay seeing that they will get Toronto's pick if I remember correctly. Yes. It's just not good and to start all this just and you laid out like the rosiest case you could possibly get for a version of the clippers even with brandening or being a part of it when that was the thing we were considering. It started with if Darius Garland is healthy and history tells us that just does not happen often enough to matter in a winning way for a team like the clippers which brings us to our existential question which is do you got the roster to replenish some of those draft picks that you lost or do you play through the pain. Now it's quite literally pain in the case of some of these players. What do you think? What do you guys think? Kyle where are you on this? Well just thinking about what caused all of this and it was a greediness to kind of flex muscle and be like established themselves as a franchise that let's just face it perpetually forever they are going to be in the shadow of the Lakers. It's never going to be undone or reverse but I think that the whole kind of mindset that drove them to make the mistakes that they made which I guess were driven by competitive ambition whatever it is hubris. I don't know. I think the only thing that could cleanse this I think they have such a bigger problem than a basketball problem. I think that they have a generational problem in terms of like the next few years you know they stand to lose support and fanbase and like the young I think that the thing that can kind of cleanse that and restart it and reset it is just starting over and like going back to not have this mindset of like we're just going to buy our way to competitiveness like play the long game build correctly start over with young players I would I would just you know offload as much as you can have a scrappy team that's the only thing that I think can reset it is if they build smartly and have a team that's on the way up and people are optimistic about it because chase and like we don't have to start over thing it's just but how do they do that is the big question. I've lived in Los Angeles for a long time or used to the only two times I can remember the Clippers ever being a thing that people like wanted to see a spectacle something that like the city got energized over one Lob City the start of it probably even before that were like Griffin was dunking over mods golf there was just an energy to watching those games and they built that organically other than Chris Paul right yes added Chris Paul on top of that if anything Chris Paul the fact that he was like such a um dour sort of sort of lad kind of suppress I think some of the fun because he tried to bring organization to it but Chris is I think a little bit more of a taskmaster than what those guys were really all about and kind of saying a dour task master I mean who could relate. Yeah I don't know how's your career going. Okay um that was one. The next one was after they traded Chris and it was just all of these kind of Ragtag guys and they just played really hard for Doc it was the Mantras Harrel team it was Shay in his first year that was like the team I think that everyone wanted but they kept getting versions that were much more in contrast to the Lakers trying to reclaim territory trying to play that same game I think they have been at their best trying to do that and to that point like they do find guys on the fringes they're pretty good on the margins and so you could say hey if we could trade Garland or anyone who's valuable we'll find some guys maybe not even in the middle of the draft because who knows what type of picks they'll get but like I think they should play to their strengths at that point and that has historically under Balmer Bender strengths. Yeah I just think the circumstances are too big for solely a basketball conversation like yeah we can talk about which of these young players we like or don't who should say and who should go but it's like the Kauai Paul George thing especially in retrospect for as enticing as it was especially for people like us who were like oh my god the dizzying possibility of these two wings together and all the depth that they have masked over the years it was soulless and like what you're rebuilding is not just market share it's not just intrigue in the way of those Lob City teams it's like can you build something here that is like worth building frankly that is not just like oh we have some interesting young players oh we're bringing fans back into the building but like how do you how do you create something other than from scratch that's worth investing as much time in as they're going to need to over the next six to eight years because this whatever it's going to be it's going to take a long time and so I am willing if I'm the clippers to engage trades on anyone who is not Keaton Wogler or Yannick Kononen either house or frankly like those are the two guys I'm like okay I want them here if you're interested in Darius Garland you shouldn't feel like you need to trade him today but you should take any call that comes your way for the clippers. Yeah that peanut I did a podcast not long after the ruling came down and we were talking about this very thing which is like if you do take this mindset that I took where I said they should start over for these reasons how do you who do you leverage it's like Garland is the is a guy who had dubious kind of like moving forward value because of the things you said like yeah really healthy smaller guard we saw that they are like endangered increasing lowly so even though dealing him we can get into that and probably not but anyway small guards it's a tough time and it's like he if he's your most valuable guy and it trickles down from there it's like that's a tough spot to be in if you're trying to rip to the studs. I think Garland is difficult to trade but not impossible which is probably important because that's where the clippers are going to have to operate for going forward. I have three teams down here but you're right it took a while to find a team in position to add a small guard that doesn't already have a point guard and is willing to sacrifice the deepens that Garland brings. I had the suns down. as a, you swap Jalen Green or Malawatch, or a first round pick if they have any under the cushions at that point. - It's green expiring. - Malawatch, they won't win. - Same number of years. So Garland has two years, 87 million green is it two years, but has less money on his deal, which is probably more attractive to the Clippers. That's one team. I think the Suns would be interested. The Bulls, perhaps, we're gonna talk about them in a little bit. Also the Pelicans, what the hell would Pelicans have going on? They can't add dares, Garland. If you can't logically arrive at a conclusion for why a team would do something, you just throw your hands up and say, "The Pelicans will probably do it." - Yeah, that's true. - It also looks like the Suns, although I'm interested in the idea, especially if Jalen Green is kind of the crux of it, I think they're just had too many picks to make it worthwhile. - Malawatch? Interest, yeah? - Oh, very much so. - I mean, if I were the Clippers, I'd be interested. - I'm with Kyle. - I don't think the Suns are gonna bail on it. - I just don't think so. - He's only like 19 and he showed some things. I don't see it happening. - Barely had a chance to be on the floor. - The bulls are interesting, but the bulls are speaking of ripping into the studs in terms of their culture and decision making. They did that. I'm no longer like, they're not a team that I would put in that category of like they'll do something inexplicable, like they're pretty smart for an office from what everything I could tell. - I mean, the good is with Garland is, you can play that process out now over two years. Like with the time he has left on his deal, see if anything comes up, see if anyone needs a replacement for whatever reason, or just like gets antsy for a point guard, 'cause their young stars need something, I think the ones that I have my eye on are more of the expiring guys. It is like the Max Truce, Derek Jones Jr. Brokolo Pez, like those are guys who make sense for other teams, who should be on teams that are competing for something more than what the Clippers will be. So maybe they can froth up the market by the deadline on those three in particular, and get something done, the recent history has told us, those are not guys who return a first round pair. Those are guys who might get you a second, might get you a prospect to take a flyer on. - Truce and Derek Jones Jr. are expiring and Ruiz on a one plus team option. So good deals, which is what they need to use their cap space. I honestly think the move is also an addition to getting picks, gutting your team and trying to make the cap space play, which is tough because I was looking even on the horizon within the next three years, like finding future free agents that would even be in the realm of trying to establish a new paradigm, go LeBron, Wade, Miami, and just want to sign outright as free agents, it's tough. Those guys are all signed for multiple years, even like in Anthony Edwards. It's like we're talking three years in the future. And it's, do you mention the pick thing too? It's like anymore, like unless it's like a top, the second round picks value have just gone to the toilet because of the way the college market has changed. - Sure. - It kind of gets kind of got to be a first. And it's like even first round picks, it's like we joked about in the draft got about how the tide is just kind of creeping up, like even a first. Like you got to get like a top 20 anymore because those guys are not coming out anymore. So the margins for like mining things, like even if you claim to be somebody that a team that does that well, it's getting harder and harder to do that. - Yeah. - All right, anything to end on a positive note with Los Angeles Clippers because they need it. Any guys, indoor things? - I love Chris Dunn. - Sure. Chris Dunn making $6 million. I don't know how it happened. I like one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, I get the deficiencies, but if you're a team that has any kind of playmaking wing or playmaking guard, he's exactly the player I want alongside them. And so part of me is excited to see like him and Keaton Woggler together, I think it could be a really fun pairing. I think there's a broader question with Tyleu of who do you want to start and what are the combinations you really want to see in action for this group? Because well, it's assumed Darius Garland and Brooke Lopez are going to be the starters on day one. Maybe Neeter Howzer would have had a case, but he's heard to start the game. - We haven't even mentioned Bradley Beale yet. - Well, we did in the sense that he is having inflammation because it's Bradley Beale. - We did mention him, you're right. - But so two through four, I think there's some negotiation as far as like who you want to play where and when. I mean, what would you guys do in terms of a starting lineup two through four for this team? - I mean, I think done in Derek Jones Jr., probably the successors considering that they've been with the franchise for so long. Rui obviously gives you a little bit more heft. - Sure. - In the front court, where would you line them up? - I mean, I think I would want to start Woggler just because again, we're trying to invest in something that's a little more forward looking and he's going to need a lot of time to get up to NBA speed. I think it starts like the way he processes the floor. So put him in spacing, put him in flow. Like let's maximize just like opportunity on the floor for him. And then the other spot I think is really between those two defenders for the most part. And like I think Derek Jones might make sense just as a slightly more cross matchable piece for what you need alongside Garland and Woggler together. And then Rui, I think it's kind of a lock there. He's just like too solid not to start frankly. But Max Drus is probably in this group too. And like probably has a case in a reasonable expectation that if he's not starting, he should place some serious minutes. - Yeah, the Woggler thing is interesting because when they took him initially my logic of like the way I was looking at him going into that situation was okay, there's some padding here for them to kind of take their time and slow roll it with him. But now that you're in the situation that you're in, I think Garland being here is an interesting thing because a lot of conversation has come up about Garland developmentally the situation that he was in in Cleveland where they were really bad and they let him play through his mistakes whereas if he had been in another situation it's interesting to see how that would have played out. So this could end up being a tough year for Woggler. Like he might take some lumps, he's a skinny kid. He's probably gonna get pressured and bullied at times and it's gonna be, so if he can keep his confidence intact, as long as you have good structure around him in terms of like player personnel and things like that it could end up being an advantageous thing for him because I really do think he has a lot of shooting and passing talent. - So the Clippers have great structure around him. Only half the stuff is currently suspended. - Basketball side. - They have everything in place. - All right, last team on the docket for today, the Chicago Bulls, number 26, and I am proud to announce that I was the low man on this team this year. One spot below both of you guys who had 'em at the same spot, just your balls. They're back. - I'm a shocked as anybody. - Yeah, I will say this, I was also thinking in my mind league pass teams. I think this might be my number one. Number one. - I just think there's so much here to diagnose. I also think like in addition to Caleb Wilson being here and I'm gonna wanna watch as much as possible with him playing in Tiago's system, which is going to be fast and frenetic. This team is gonna be getting up and down every night. Now, I think game's gonna be like 130 to like 143, probably, but that's exactly what I want at that stage of my league pass viewing. - Completely. I just think I am more excited to watch this team than I have been in years. And a lot of that has to do with Caleb Wilson specifically, but a lot of it too is what you talked about Kyle, which is just the franchise finally kind of admitting that what was going was not working and taking a couple of steps back, even if it's not all torn down, like they just needed a hard look in the mirror. This feels like that kind of season, a clarifying exercise, a real core that's starting to come together. I'm thrilled about it. There was a real Kremlin vibe with the previous Chicago Bulls administration where they were like, no corruption, no, it's just like everything's snow, that we're just denied, denied, denied, and it's like, they finally, it's refreshing to see that they've started over. Now this team is spatially weird. I mean, they went and got buddy healed, I guess, for they just, they got some like bargain bin. You know, I used to love to go to Walmart and they had like the nine dollar computer games. - Oh, sure. - It being like in the jewel case, we were getting a little age of empires too. You kid me, nine dollars, let's, LFG. - I'm just saying, but overall this team, if you think about Gideon, I know we'll get to Gideon here in a second. If you think about him, if you think about Norm, you get buddy in there. It's like there's just not a lot of shooting to go around and a lot of guys who are kind of physical. Now they're gonna be very fun. This could be their times where this is a backhanded thing to say about a basketball team, but they're gonna be very fun and transition. They're gonna be electric because you got quarterback Gideon back there with Busellas. Something interesting in Wilson, something interesting though for me is if you look at Tiago coming into this team and what happened for the Blazers last year, is it possible that Tiago is gonna look at Busellas who if you compare him into a Dini Abdihah, the way that his development meant arc? Do you think that there's a Tiago? - We went to a different continent on that one. Is it Abdihah? - Abdihah, yeah, Abdihah. - There's no, I don't know. - There can be, if clearly if you try, maybe somebody corrected me on that, I don't remember at some point. - Is that wrong? - I get you wrong all the time. - I think we nailed it. - Abdihah, Abdihah, we'll hear from somebody. No, I just wonder if you think that if you imagine it, and I think it's really possible, he could look at Busellas who's been thought of a certain way and look at the way that Abdihah played. I wonder if he could try to empower him some in terms of who he's gonna be, as a player that's coming year. - That'd be thrilling. I think Busellas has been waiting for an archetype, frankly. I've like, what is the channel for him that makes the most sense with his kind of like, gangly driving style? And Denny is, I think we should talk about him more as someone who could be mapped onto for other wings around the league who are trying to figure out, what is my lane, what can I do well? A lot of Denny's success has been like, he's very sharp in terms of how he reads the floor as a passer, but also just the assertiveness in the driving game, which is easier said than done to just kind of like a ramp up, but if Busellas can be that kind of downhill force, that would be an incredible turn for the bulls. - Yeah, a lot of it was just empowering Denny to bring the ball up and just ram right to the rim, because he's just such a big old boy and has playing with a lot of force and just opens things up. I mean, to that point, the beginning of last season, the Blazers were basically just doing that with him and Shade and Sharp. That was their entire offense, and they're starting with the bulls. There aren't a lot of options, but there are already more options than that. And so maybe it's Busellas. I do wonder there where the reps start to lean toward, especially because Gidey is probably gonna have the ball [BLANK_AUDIO] hands a lot brings us to our existential question. So they're turning the page on virtually everyone, but there are still a few holdovers from the previous generation. There are three, I guess, that make the most sense, not including some guys that they just brought back to fill out the rest of the bench. Noah Senge, who was a traffic from the previous regime, has the posture of a work from home employee and unfortunately, what are you trying to say? Everyone in the studio definitely stood up after that one. Patrick Williams has three years left on his contract. He's only 25 years old. I can't be true. I don't know which fact I'm more astounded by, but he's still there. And then Josh Gidey obviously got the contract extension last year. Do you guys think that the next chapter will include Gidey? Because on the one hand, doesn't make a ton. I think it's 25 million a year. His passing is obviously very useful, especially for the team, his size is useful at the very least. He's a good rebounder. He could spark the break off of misses from the other team. He does things well, but like, do you really want him as a fixture of the next version of the team? I think is the big questionnaire. I think my answer is maybe not, and I say that not to be wishy washy with the question, but just because the best thing that the bulls can be with Josh Gidey right now is not a commitment. Like, if he works out, great. He's a part of this core. He makes sense with these guys. Let's keep it rolling. If not, they finally have enough other irons in the fire where they can just move on. And that would be fine too. And so I think he's in that weird place where he kind of is who he is. And I don't know if you got the Thiago Splitter quote coming out of training camp where his quote about Josh Gidey's turnovers. I don't need him to be cute. I need him to be effective. Hmm. Certainly apt. Okay. I think like you want his playmaking. You want to channel what Josh Gidey does well, fitting that into a team structure that goes multiple rounds to the playoffs is really hard. And we've seen it historically with the Thunder. We've seen it in just in terms of the ceilings that the bulls have fronted to with him at the helm and him on defense. I think he's made like nice marginal improvements in a lot of areas of his game, but he's still Josh Gidey and he comes with the same limitations that he basically always has. He's an interesting floor razor guy that raised. He's so good to the point where you're like, okay, this is something that we could, if it low stakes will be, yeah, we can sign up for that. But then you just hit your head on a ceiling quicker than you would think based on how talented he is. And it kind of, especially with this group, this would be two young corps in a row that would, if they decide not to include him. And that kind of brings you into a question of just like, okay, is this, it kind of goes into the Randall zone of like, this guy is good enough to bring him in, but we're going to have to figure out some really tough questions. And I think his playstyle just, I think we talked about this last year that he just implies a certain, a certain type of big has to play with him. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine it probably need somebody that can pick and pop like it, more than Nick Clackston, who should say is now a part of this team too. Yeah, yeah. So and then you, you need to like defensively cover him up. So that implies a certain type of athlete on the perimeter and you're like, okay, we got to find it just, you create a really complicated job market. If you have, if you have Josh Gidey, whereas you get into position in this draft to take a Caleb Wilson, I think you've kind of created a fork in the road for yourself where it's kind of like we, and you already have muzele's also. So if you're going to answer all these questions about muzele's and give Caleb Wilson the open road that he needs to have, I don't think that you can do that and also have all the conditions that it would take to make Josh Gidey succeed. I think the phrase used that really popped for me is cover up, which is a lot of what the Josh Gidey experience is, is like, I think he's gotten pretty good over the last couple of years with the bulls at like, obviously skating some of what he doesn't do as well. Like, if you play fast enough, then you don't notice like in a half court offense, he kind of can't break guys down off the dribble consistently enough. His playmaking stalls out as a result like who he can be as an engine. If you play fast enough is just kind of disguised. But that's not really addressing it. And so it's like, there are elements of his game that I think he's gotten better at and there's elements of his game that think he's gotten better at hiding. And the hiding really can only take you so far. Yeah, it's more craft and feel than it is any sort of like dynamic athleticism or anything he's going to do just like as an athlete. But the weird thing is he keeps getting better. Yeah. Like the shooting, which was always kind of a bugaboo with him has become legitimate. Well, legitimate to the point of making, but not being guarded. And so it's like, well, again, what is that worth? It's hard. It's hard. Not as a shooter. I think that the numbers would suggest that they should. Maybe. I think it's one of those things where like kidding the shots is clearly important and is a step in that process. But I don't know that we've seen defenses really bend to him off the ball in a way that shows value for someone like Caleb Olson. Everything's a step slow. It's odd because he can flow very seamlessly. But it's just like he's almost like lead footage and weird way. And his shot is also slow developing for that reason as well. And so like maybe he's just a guy that just raises floors and just has a career like making sense of a young team. Like maybe this just who he is. Sometimes we all have to accept our lot in line. You know, like it maybe he is a Ricky Rubio type, you know, who just floats around. Are you fented? Yes. Ricky Rubio played for better teams and obviously the defense allowed him to like be a factor for more successful teams. But similar like mid to your past first point guard shooter like, but in more of a standstill catching shoot sort of situation. Rubio never even got to get these levels of shooter. I mean, I know I'm fond of Rubio too, but let's be as an offensive influence. Like Ricky Rubio has tangible evidence that he could actually lead off fences that went somewhere versus like, oh, we're just going to be the 14th to 16th best offense in the league. Like I just think he's a better person now later in life. Certainly. I think it's gitties at an interesting point. I looked this up as you said it about the guard versus unguard. I think this is pretty fast. And he has guarded versus unguarded catching shoot threes this past year. He shot 111 unguarded at 46.8%. That's pretty good. But when he was guarded at 101, he was at 27.7. So it's kind of like we're at this point where it sounds like they should guard more. Well, if it till it's towards like, all right, we're going to like, you know, we're not going to be just flat out daring you to shoot threes. It makes you wonder how his life changes. Yeah. Let's talk about some guys and things. And let's talk about the guy. I think we've all been waiting to talk about. And that's one Caleb Wilson in this segment. As we diagnose young Caleb is brought to you by Sam's club because during the holidays, everyone's in a club. The cool on club, the not socks this year club, the food coma club. But every season, there's a team that earns its way into a club. Nobody expected. So this segment is about the newest members of the club spotlighting a team's newest off season edition. And we're talking about breakout candidates. And obviously, I think Caleb fits that bill. It's going to be chaotic good. That's kind of what I said, I've said about the bulls. It's like, even though I have them ranked low, I've kind of got the arrow next. So it's like ranked low arrow up. It's going to be wildly fun. But I think it's going to bleed off the margins at times into like what the hell did I was just watch. But they're also going to be thrilling times because Caleb's going to be one of the instantly one of the best and rangeiest athletes in the league. I think he's going to be a highlight machine. All right. I think he almost single-handedly justifies Justin's claim that the bulls are going to be a great league past him. One of the best watches in the league. They're going to be so fun. They're going to be so fast. Like, again, that pace is fine. And we've seen versions of the bulls that have brought that into the to the equation in the past. But Caleb Wilson is dynamic in a way that I really don't remember the last bull who had this kind of total talent package that they were bringing to the table. It's been a minute. It's been a while. Chicago's been toiling for so long waiting for this guy. And like seeing it all kind of fall into place. I really can't think of a single other new addition in the league that has energized my feeling and opinion around a team so much. My question is, what's the checklist look like for him in year one? Because I think everyone was excited about just watching him play defense. And that would have been enough. But then we saw the shooting success at summer league. And now you start to get the wild fantasies of like, Oh, maybe the Kevin Garnett stuff is like legit. Maybe he could just step out and start taking these things as soon as the season. Like what's like a realistic expectation for him in year one? If I was sending like a syllabus for like goals, I would say 35% catch and shoot from three would be that would be like eyebrows across the world up. Like, okay, this is interesting because he didn't shoot a lot at North Carolina. And if you look, the optics of him, he had a pretty good like stationary mid range kind of no dribble can shoot kind of thing going on. He's okay from the line. Like in the optics of it are not bad. So, and that so I think that that's possible. We'll see if there are offense has enough floating to get those types of shots for him. Yeah. And then cleaning up the defensive technique because if you're going to invoke the name of Kevin Garnett, I mean, you need to like, what is it? Rub the coal on your, whatever it like, it's like don't get struck by lightning because that's, that is like a blast from his comp in most cases. Physically, he matches the bill there. It's kind of like Garnett's personality. So interesting. And it's like so unique in its own way. I just want to see him grow in that sense. Like become a lead. If he can immediately come in and be a leader in that situation, Claxon will be a nice collaborator for him in that sense because Claxon takes defense very personally and very seriously. Those are the two things that I want to see because all those other chaotic things, they're just going to organically happen for me, I think. I just want to be tempted to blast them in that way. Not just like it for Kevin Garnett comp, but like, I think Nick Claxon as a big who has like a little bit of a handoff game. And Josh Gady as a playmaker who does set up other guys to do their best stuff. I want to know who Caleb Wilson is with the ball in his hands creating. And the kind of training wheels way to do that is put him in a slightly advantageous position on the catch and then one or two steps. He makes a quick and explosive move. If he becomes that guy, we start thinking about him. positionally in a totally different way creatively in a totally different way as far as charting the future of the bolts We think about them in a totally different way sounds like a breakout player to me rob and every breakout squad has to earn It's spot and during the holiday Sam's club is the club that helps you earn yours Whether you're part of the deal hunters club or the last minute gift givers club Sam's club has the name brands you want without blowing your budget come join us Sam's club All right any other guys and or things we want to talk about with the bolts well on the Noah Senge front I do think bringing in Caleb Wilson and trading for Nick Clackston buys him some pretty invaluable time. I just don't think we're gonna see like a ton of ton of Noah Senge and I don't think That's a bad thing for his development. Oh, you think I was good. Yeah, I was good He needs an opportunity, but he needs to not be exposed to like a high-minute backup role. I think it's bad for him I think he stinks. I've seen a little of him in summer league and like even in year two He looked completely lost I didn't like he needs like years Getting into some kind of NBA form and he's not there. That's why we go to Shanghai brother I didn't I didn't really ever I'd never really was high on him and I'd get totally understanding that path Yeah, but yeah, but I mean look they are a prime league past team in a lot of ways the entertainment value But also you look at the front and it's like oh, there's a lot of stuff here I like you look at the back end of the rotation. It's like oh whoa There is not a lot of depth on this team and I say that is someone who like Leonard Miller was solid for them I guess we'll see with Dale and swing another another another weird ball skills athletic guy that you're just stacking Begot I mean I mean they have like 10 of them. It's just funny Well they have a type and I have a type apparently their backups play better than you'd expect though Like they get the best out of trade Jones and the Jalen Smiths and we'll see about Zach Collins again Like those guys play better with the bulls than you would expect probably because they play such a critical role to be clear It's more the two three four stuff Everything between point guarded center on the back line is real up in the air right now And it's just not going to be pretty and that's why the bulls are here in the bottom five of our ranking despite the fact that the high end of what they do Might look really impressive. They're really promising. They're just not a stable NBA team yet. Yeah The other thing holding them down from their league pass ranking no Stacey King passed away at 59 That was incredibly sad incredible. He was one of my favorite Broadcasters yeah in the league the cookies like man It's gonna be such a bummer watching them and I haven't there. I mean just a real lack of exuberance on the NBA landscape broadcasting wise right now Like those are the kind of voices that I think you really feel as we're bouncing around trying to watch all these teams It's like to be honest a lot of teams. I watch on mute. I never watch the bulls on mute. Yeah Anything else with the bulls or this exercise how we feel on after five teams in the books we have a long way to go But I think we're I think we're hitting our stride. Yeah, this is the point of the exercise. We're like oh, we did five teams after over an hour and a half Well, can I tease one thing that we will I'm sure come back to later not to dwell too much on sunk costs as it relates to the bulls but I would assume it trade I think just looks Worse and worse and worse like I yeah, I was obviously really good for the wolves That was clear right out of the gate the fact that the bulls took one look at Rob Dillingham and then gave him away and the team They gave him way to just straight up cut him Yeah, they went to catch right and they just kind of removed their hands like just let him. It was like I'm not interested Just the bad decision of holding on to IO as long as they did was just Compounding and compounding and compounding until they just self-destructed yeah and Kobe White I guess the one bright side is that it was so bad You don't know which guys they brought on for cap reasons in order to make the money work versus guys They actually wanted to take a flyer on because jade and ivy didn't even make it through the half-season that they had him on there And you said that was an injustice. Yeah, yeah, it's exactly Just absolutely abysmal. Why it took him that long to get to that point But he certainly like earned the firing in order to turn the pages certainly. Okay, why don't we wrap it there? That's episode one of the preseason powerings. We'll be back for five more of these starting on Wednesday Thank you to Victoria Valencia Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely as well as everybody here at the sake of more studios We will talk to you in part two next time