Powerfully Navigate the Daily Grind Against Narcissists with Attorney and Coach Mia Madafferi and Rebecca Zung on Negotiate Your Best Life #554

Coming today on negotiate your best life with Rebecca's own You know that you're the strong person and you know that you were you have value and all of the things But then all the sudden you realize you're in this thing and you think how did I end up here? where did I like where did I make this wrong turn and and and and you just don't even realize how you got there other than You just think well I was trying to be a good person or I It's not like you didn't see signs along the way, but you end up thinking well There were just like these small little things along the way and along the way you kind of think well I thought that The person was gonna change So the big questions are these how can we navigate and negotiate every situation in our lives in our career in our businesses in our relationships and even with ourselves for our own self-worth in other words What if you could win every time and have no losers? Let's face it. We're not negotiating just to buy a car or for a pay raise We are negotiating for living in every aspect of our lives How can we do that powerfully successfully and victoriously? Those are the questions and this podcast will be the answers My name is Rebecca Song and welcome to the time where you negotiate your best life Welcome to another episode of negotiate your best life. I am beyond excited to have Mia Mattifiri here with me today she is a powerhouse She is a powerhouse. She is a seasoned lawyer and She is also the first person in Australia to be certified and My high conflict Negotiation certification course. She is a master Sla certified coach and also just a beautiful badass I mean seriously look at her and but see I cannot wait to dive in because You are gonna just be blown away by How much she knows what she does she's now The founder of gray rock consulting she completely specializes in helping people communicate and negotiate with narcissistic and high-conflict personalities She's completely Dedicating her life to helping people reclaim their lives from control and abuse and providing them with the tools to communicate effectively and negotiate confidently She has dealt with narcissists in all different forms and all different realms in her own life and She now really is helping people in all different ways So I'm so excited to have you here Mia. Oh my goodness. Do you know Rebecca? I've never lost words But I am loss words. That is one of the most kind as introduction So thank you so much, and I could not be more excited to be here speaking to you today Rebecca honestly Yeah, well it is my honor and my pleasure because you've been so Really I love to see your the way that your light has shown especially throughout the program and then even after the program you've been on podcasts all over the place and really taking your your program and in your own career and turning it into something incredible all over Australia and I can't wait to go there and enjoyed forces with you. I mean, it's just been incredible to watch but it's really Such a testament to what you can do when you turn your pain into power Yes, you know, it's face someone sent me a quote the other day and it really resonated and it was it was the pain pushes until the vision pulls And I was like wow that is so true, you know You know, I look back on my journey and think the pain could have done one of two things which was completely break me or the opposite and I turn it into my vision and my power and You know without sounding too full of myself I feel that that is what I have done. I've worked really really really hard from what was incredibly difficult Experiences to be where I am today. You know if someone had said to me you would be speaking to Rebecca's own first self In real life, I would have laughed and said in my dreams and he's my going to come true. So Oh I remember when we first spoke you said I had this vision that you and I would be speaking on stages together Yeah For a long time I felt that we know what's happening You know whether you're coming to a stoner on coming out of there, but it's different. I haven't that's for sure Oh, I can't wait till the heavens, you know, we're gonna manifest that I Well, but you know there's another quote out there that's you are best Served to help the person that you used to be Yeah These things they they resonate so deeply because I Absolutely admire anyone in this space who is working to help people You know at the end of the day be free because you can feel so consumed by these personalities and that is what they do to you and I think ultimately these tools and these strategies and the advice is to for you to get your freedom back And I think you you are best served when you are working for someone who actually knows What it is like who's actually experiencing personalities? Totally, I mean just totally and and it really is just this slow boil I mean, you know, I remember when I was dealing with it and you just think You just You know that you're the strong person and you know that you were you have value and all of the things But then all the sudden you realize you're in this thing and you think how did I end up here? Where did I like where did I make this wrong turn and and and and you just don't even realize how you got there other than you just think well I was trying to be a good person or I It's not like you didn't see signs along the way, but you end up thinking well There were just like these small little things along the way and along the way you kind of think well, I thought that The person was going to change or I thought that The person was was You know There was something going on in their lives and and so I was helping them or I thought that You know, I just interviewed Nadine McEluso who Wrote run like hell and she was married to the Wolf of Wall Street and she said something to me that It almost gave me a chill down to my bones, but it was all also so powerful and she said They keep you alive unhook I Just got chills because as you were speaking I was you know in my mind I was like hope In everyday life is a beautiful thing Hope in these situations is a killer. You know, the hope that they will change the hope that they will see What they're doing the hope that they'll realize that you're only there, you know with the best intentions for them It hope hope hope and it is an absolute killer. I absolutely know what it's like to hope that things will be different and They're not and I think you know what you touched on before is so important, you know, I look I reflect and say hold on a minute, you know, I'm educated. I'm a lawyer, you know I Specialise in sort of major infrastructure litigation in my legal career Which you can only imagine the personalities in that space and I think hold on a minute. This couldn't happen to someone like me. What do you know? It shouldn't happen to be some smart and I'm successful All the things I had a good upbringing and then when it all you know that we say over here like when it comes to roast and the chickens come to roast When you start to realize and see They're not picking you because there's something wrong with you, they're not picking you because you're uneducated or anything like that. They're picking you because there's so much right about you and you reflect so wonderfully on them or for them. And this process of sort of detangling all the tentacles, you know, pulling out this entrenched wheat which has so many roots in you. Oh, it's a journey and it's not easy, but you start to see how they have really gotten into your system and change the way you think and change the way you see yourself. It's insidious to say the absolute least. Oh yeah, absolutely. And then they manage after all of that to when you want to stop providing all of the services or whatever it is to them to turn people against you because you don't want to continue to do that anymore. They're so, you know, it's like a wolf in sheep's clothing. They are so covert most of them the way they do it. You know, if I was to go to your, you know, a family member today and say, oh, Rebecca's up. She's a murderer. You know, your family would go, who are you? You absolute lunatic. Rebecca is not a murderer. They don't do it like that. They're not that obvious and they plan little seeds of that manipulation and they water them and they grow into people going, oh, actually, yes, no, I was told that Rebecca is capable of that and people that's how they get in people's minds. It's, it's just unbelievable. If you've ever felt stuck trying to lose weight, you are so not alone. Enter weight loss by hers. 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Oh, I'm just so concerned about Susie and her drinking. Yes, so worried. I'm just so concerned. I'm so worried about her. Oh, I'm a children and you know, she's she's not quite herself. Oh, I'm just worried. You know, I'm just worried about her being around the kids. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I just, you know, all that extra stress that she's had lately. You know, and they plant these little seeds and then by the time the divorce comes around, of course, Susie's a full on alcoholic. Yes. Um, but Susie probably has no problem with drinking whatsoever. Yeah. We we I find that we are always looking at the reactions and not the behavior that is causing the reactions. So like you say, oh, yes, Susie's an alcoholic. Hold on a minute. Susie wasn't an alcoholic for a big part of her life. And now she seems to be, you know, like abusing alcohol. Why? Why? No one's looking at that, you know, and they look at the, oh gosh, you know, he was right. Susie's an alcoholic. Yeah. Well, and Susie might be an alcoholic. Yes. She probably just had an extra glass of wine on Saturday. And so, you know, he characterized it as Susie's an alcoholic now. And because they saw her drink that extra glass of wine, well, now it's easy to oh, well, you know, I did see her drink more, you know, yes, yes, or even if Susie is, well, you know, you're out of function or you're all patching up and Susie has a glass of wine, which is completely fine. And then, you know, even little things like say she goes, she walks off and she's coming back and she trips, stumbles or trips on, you know, some uneven pavement. And then it will be like, see, yes. Yes. And you know, I'm conscious I'm saying all of this with a smile on my face and it's not because it makes me happy or because it's a, you know, happy situation to be in, but it's because when you see them and how they function and how they operate and once you are free of it, the smile on my face is because you just see what they are up to and hopefully that people are seeing this and going, oh, I can be free too. I can get to a point where I'm smiling and laughing at the ridiculous things that they're doing because I've taken my power of that completely in this situation. Yes, totally, totally. Yeah. So I want to just say, you know, you and I have both been there and I mean, I know it's so interesting though because I think what happens is, and I'm going to say this because I want to do some kind of like a special or something like me, you know, I've done YouTube videos on this for sure, but all narcissists end up self-destructing and they do end up overplaying their hand because at some point everybody who's with them in some way ends up going, I see who you are now. Yes, I've seen that over and over and over again and it's really so difficult when you're in it because, you know, I have so many clients as well and I've been in a way you've want to scream to friends, family, whoever it might be saying, "Can't you see what they're doing?" And what actually happens is you almost play into their narrative when you do that and people start going, "Oh my gosh, like, you know, she's like a dog with a bone about this and yeah, you know, you can be a bit full-on but he's not that bad and you end up kind of looking like you're a bit obsessed or a bit crazy about it all." What actually happens over time? If you look after you and you focus on you, you know what happens, you don't need to justify or explain yourself to anybody and you focus on being free and getting out with whatever, however that looks for you, you watch over time, the friends, the new partner, all the things and people start to go, "Oh my gosh, you know, he or she, you know, is doing all these things in their drive because it's crazy and they won't let go and and you just sit back and like, yep, because the mask always comes down, always. Always, they always, and uh, uh, uh, destroying themselves or whatever. I mean, there's just always something that you can use against them and yes, always. And so, and there's just always some point where their supply source just goes, "I'm just done over here. I mean, there's just, you know, and that's when they're, they will come unglued or undone and and and there's always going to be something you can use against them." What? It doesn't make it any easier. I mean, so and you can use that, my sleigh method, which is what you teach. Now, I want you to talk about you, you have, um, a method that you're now helping people with, with the day to day. Um, and I think that this is really, really helpful because I can say that as a lawyer, and you know this as a lawyer too, the one of the worst things for people is dealing with the day to day. And, and you know, you know that you can't help hold people's hands on a day to day basis. I mean, this is what would happen with me, and I am sure you can probably attest to this too as a lawyer. Like the first month the bill would be like, big, and then people would go, "Oh, wait a minute, I had to get, why'd you bill me?" I'll be like, "Well, you know, you're calling me and texting me all the time, you know, and then the next month, not so much." But you, you, it's really hard for people because they're like, "Oh my gosh, this is going crazy." So, and I, I used to tell my paralegal like, oh my gosh, if the motion came in on a Friday or the letter came in on a Friday, this is what nurses always do, by the way. They always send things over at three o'clock on a Friday afternoon or five o'clock on a Friday afternoon. - Yes, all the night before a special event or your birthday or something like that, they really love that sort of stuff. - Well, I'm talking about it. It'll come into the lawyers' office. - Yes, absolutely. - Then you have to send it over to your clients and then they have all weekend that they have to deal with it. And now they're like in this whole massive meltdown mode. And that's what they do. They file a motion or some big, huge craziness. And now they're in, oh my gosh, what do I do? I don't even know what to see. (mimics "Sing With Your Eyes") And so I used to tell my paralegal, please don't just send it over. Send it over with explaining what it is so that they're not in full on panic mode. So, but that's what they do. - Coming up, more on "Negotiate Your Best Life" with Rebecca Zahn. - Very early on in my life, when someone shows you who they are, believe them. And you hear those things and the other, my dad always used to say, "When I was little, there's a fine line between love and hate." And those sorts of things, you're like, what that means, what are you talking about? And then you go through these experiences, you know, like, yes, okay, I see it. When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time, not the hundredth time. - Are you struggling with the narcissist in your life? Whether it's a family member, a friend, a business partner, a soon to be ex, whoever it is, are you ready to shift that power dynamic, but you're just feeling like you cannot win. Like, everybody is believing their lies, and you're just feeling like there's just no way that you can shift that power dynamic. I've got a brand new masterclass for you. I'm sharing all my secrets. And so that you can finally take back your power and break free from this hell, emotionally, physically, and spiritually, I've never done this free masterclass before, go to break free from hell, and sign up, come be with me, and get my secrets so that you can finally take back your power and break free. Break free from hell, and let's do this. - Take a listen to our archive, where you can listen to more episodes that show you the path to how to negotiate your best life. - What happens in the bedroom, when you're in relationship with the narcissist, is that your needs are completely irrelevant, just the same as they are anywhere else. They set you up so that you feel like there's something wrong with you, and you end up feeling ashamed, and it affects your confidence, and it affects your self-worth. - And now we return to today's show. - That's what they do, and I personally noticed a real gap there, because you're so right, when you are in it, your family lawyer is also not your counselor. You don't want your family lawyer also doing your day-to-day correspondence, because it will cost you an absolute fortune. I don't know about you over there, but in Australia, family lawyers are busy on another scale. It's just incredibly busy. So this is not their job, and they are already so busy. So that gap was the day-to-day. So you have your family lawyer, or wonderful programs, including SLAY, which is exceptional, around negotiating with them, and getting the successful outcome that you want. These things are critical, and I would say, life's saving to people, so they can get out of it, and get out of it with something that they're actually happy with instead of being fully. So I think they are just so phenomenal, and so important. And then the gap was the day-to-day, the constant emails or text messages, or whatever your form of communication is. And I hope it's just one, where it's, you know, the school that they go to, or, you know, I don't have their sport uniform, or you haven't paid a bill, or something like that. It is the day-to-day, where they sort of, you know, leap on, and they cause you so much grief over something that should not be a problem. And what I experienced was, you know, well, who's going to help me with these responses? I don't know what to say, because when you are explaining, defending, justifying, I never said that. I didn't do that. What do you mean? You end up in this, you know, this merry-go-round that doesn't stop, and they kick coming back. And before you know what your day's gone on, and you're, you know, really upset about something, you're not able to do your job, or whatever it might be. So that day-to-day, where I felt people, I'd buy themselves, and it's so important for them to be free of this as well, because you can be free of it. And I'm sure there's people listening, going, "Oh, but I have to care, co-parent, and we do have to communicate, yes, I know." But there is a way to bring that all down. I was going to say a couple of notches, but like, you know, a million notches what you're dealing with in our subsets, where they're not getting that supply from you anymore, because it is all supply, all supply. Oh, so that's where I'm going to be. - They're addicted to it. - They did. - Yeah, I mean, the narcissists are addicts, basically, is what they are. - And this is the stuff. You know, this will never be used in your court proceedings, or maybe now, you know, we, I'm not sure if you know, but over here we've just criminalized coercive control in New South Wales, which is a wonderful step, and I'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. But this day-to-day stuff, you don't want to be paying your family lawyer to do it. They don't want to do it, because it's really not relevant to your proceeding, but you do want to be free of it. And there is a way to be free of it, and to bring it right down, but it's hard to do by yourself. And that is what I really, really love as well, to help people through. - So I think this is a wonderful, wonderful service. So what do you do? - So I've got my sort of my method to get them through and the steps, and Rebecca, you will not be shocked to hear that one of the first steps is, know who you're dealing with, know who you are dealing with. And it's so important to really understand who they are, how they react, know your opponent. Sometimes people feel in this space when you refer to strategy or knowing your opponent, that it sounds underhanded or manipulative or something, but it's really not, you know, I think as a lawyer, you always have a strategy. And you know your opponent, and you know their case inside an hour, you really need that in this space as well, because you're not dealing with someone who is reasonable, you know, dealing with someone who wants to work with you, you know, and if you have children, you're definitely not working with someone who is working in the best interests of your children. So you're starting with knowing your opponent, and then I take them through different steps around how to communicate, how to actually see what they are saying to, how to red line the barrage, you know, the thesis that you receive every time and decipher, what is it that they're actually saying? And do I actually need to respond? Then it's more around responding, not reacting. Never respond straight away. You know, if you're in a place where your anger upsets, you know, working through and becoming an expert in responding, and not reacting, and then what you're actually going to say, your gray rock response, you know, and it is a process, and it takes time, but one of the biggest, I had a client yesterday and I got off the call with her, I was just so happy, because the very first time I met her, she was in her car on her phone, terrified that he might walk out here, see her, know that she's on a call with me, and so scared, and every time she mentions what was happening, she was in tears, and she didn't know what to do. And when I spoke to her yesterday, she's like, I'm about to go on my second trip overseas with my friend, and she was smiling and laughing, and I was like, yes, yes, like it fills my heart so much. And I'm like, my ultimate is the day comes where you never need to speak to me again, in the nicest possible way, but you don't need me anymore because you're free, and you've got it, and off you go, I love it, love it. - Oh, yeah, love it, love it. I mean, that's how I feel too. Like, to me, like seeing people shine and become powerful, that's like the best. It's so, I mean, I always say never date, I always say I'm have Chinese, but I always, and I always were jade, but never date, never justify argue, defend or explain, because you're never gonna talk them into something, you're never gonna get closure, you're never gonna get them to acknowledge you, you're never gonna get them. I mean, if they ever even apologize, I mean, my experience is, if even the apologies are really just a matter of time, manipulation. There's a motivation behind the apology. There is something there and it's either to make themselves look good for some reason. It is because they need something from you. You know, I've had situations where you will receive the most horrible correspondence. And then the next day because they need something, it'll be like, you know, I've made a mistake, made a booking for something, I've just realised that, you know, you have the kids that day and I'm so sorry, I know that I'm putting you out, but would it be possible? And you're like, "Woooh, jekyll and hide, jekyll and hide, it's unbelievable." Totally, totally. Or, you know, it wasn't my intention. It wasn't my intention to hurt you or it wasn't my intention to do something, you know, that's, let's, you know, one of my favourites. Because, you know, because that's not an apology, by the way. Yes, and a lot of you've been in a big sense of evil, don't overreact and, you know, all those sorts of things. It's like a plain book. Yes, exactly, exactly. So, and, and, you know, and if they do it again, then that's not, you can just tell that there's that too, right? Yes, yeah, I was told very early on in my life, you know, when someone shows you who they are, believe them. And, you know, you hear those things and the other, you know, my dad always used to say, "When I was little, there's a fine line between love and hate." And those sorts of things, you're like, "What, that means? What are you talking about?" And then you go through these experiences, you know, like, "Yes, okay, I see it. When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time, not the hundredth time, not, you know, like, when they are showing you because these personalities show you." And I think if you ask everyone who's never get rid of one to look back and go, "Were they're warning signs? Were they're red flags? Were they?" Everyone will say, "Yes, absolutely they were." But we, you know, we justify, like you say, you know, we often say, "Oh, but, you know, she had a hard up ringing or his mother was really hard on him, so sometimes he can lash out or, you know, he didn't get the job that he really wanted." So, it's been angry right now, and we make all these excuses. Yeah, so tall. So tall. I mean, and the biggest thing, you know, is that they never follow through on the promises that they make when they say that they're going to change, when they say that they're going to do something that's going to make things better or whatever, they say whatever they want to keep you alive, to keep you breadcrumbing, to keep you in it just enough, just enough to keep you tethered, and then they might change or do the things for a month or two or whatever it is, but they never actually really follow through. And then that's-- They keep their promises. Never. Unless it serves a purpose for them, you know, unless it helps them in some way, shape or form, they absolutely do not. And I think that, you know, one of the most painful things for people in these situations, because we all know you can experience them, you know, at work, in relationships, family members, they're everywhere, you know, and one of the most painful experiences when it is a relationship because you are emotionally invested. And you love this person, or you did love this person. And there's so much pain in seeing who they are. It's so painful. And then there's grief because you realize this person was not who I thought they were. And that is not an easy path or an easy journey. But, you know, where I feel so passionately, you know, I have so many clients say, "What do you mean I've got leverage? What do you mean I've got the power? I've got no power." You know, it always feels like he's running the show, it always feels like she's holding on the cards. And when you start talking to them and I had one recently where they went to mediation, and my client said to me, "We've got nowhere today." I said, "Okay, well tell me what happened in mediation." And she explained it all and I said, "You've got everywhere." She said, "What do you mean?" I said, "You didn't get an agreement?" Yes. But he's just revealed what he really wants is A, B, C. He has revealed what he will fight to and nail for for you not to get. And his cut is on nose to spite his face because he really needs money, but in order to upset you, he won't agree to an intrompayer. So you have all this information. You have all the power. You have all the leverage. He needs money and she's like, "Oh, I didn't think about it like that." I said, "You have all the power." So now she's going into another mediation with this solid strategy and plan. And she knows, "Well, I said, do you know what? It's not a loss. You knew your walk away points and you walked away. It wasn't a loss." And she was like, "Oh, wow, that's a really different way to see it." I was like, "Your mindset is critical, absolutely critical in all of these things." Because they really do have the power. They really do. Yes, totally. That was really good advice and really a good reframe. Yes. And I always say that when they don't show up on time or when they don't make a payment on time or when they're constantly changing the schedule, I always say, "Thank you for the gift. Thank you for the gift." Because that becomes leverage. I think that's wonderful Rebecca. Thank you for the gift because mindset really is critical. If you walk into a negotiation with, this is just a waste. I'm not going to get anywhere because he's this way. Well, what's the point of going to the negotiation? So you have to, I really often laugh with my clients, I'm sorry to be bossy, but you've got to listen to me on this stuff. Which is terrible, but I'm like, you know, that mindset of going in powerful, knowing that if you don't reach an agreement, it's because it was going to a point that you were not comfortable with instead of getting bullied into something and really believing that you can do this and that you can get the outcome that you want. Mine, I happen the first time, might happen the second time. You know, that that reframe. Thank you for the gift. I love that. I think it's so important. Yes, totally. But you know, I had one of my coaches actually tell the ex the other day, thank you for the gift. I'm like, no, you're not supposed to tell them that. You're going to believe you. It's a very you to know. That is so funny, but you're so right, they must know that it is all a gift. I think you know, someone's for you to say to yourself, not to tell them. Not to tell them, right? I think as someone said to me, I would have been three years ago, you know, everything is happening for you and not to you. Yes. And when you're in the thick of these situations, something like that can actually be upsetting for somebody because they'd be, what do you mean that this has happened for me? I'm being controlled, I'm being emotional in psychological abuse. I'm not, you know, with holding finances. What do you mean this has happened for me? And in that journey, you get to a point where you see it and you see how this has happened for you. You know, I look at where I am now and it's like, oh wow, I see how this happened for me and not to me. It's really powerful stuff. Yeah. I mean, look, we're all that I'm doing now, right? I knew. Absolutely. Absolutely. Totally. Totally. So where can people learn more about you and what you're up to and what you're doing and yes. And is there anything more that you want to share about your programs and what you're up to? Yeah. So I'm a little busy being over here working away. It's funny actually because I've ended up having clients from all over the world, which I didn't envisage either. So that has just been incredible to have, you know, people from the United States have a Canada and America and Argentina like all these places where I was I was. No, it's not. This is unbelievable. So I am very busy working away over here. So at the minute, I've worked one on one with clients. I actually had a client in Canada go, the exchange rate is working wonderfully for me working with you. I was like, yes, okay, good. Well done for you. So we had a bit of a chuckle about that. But I do work one on one coaching for, you know, the negotiations and the mediations and those big events, but also like I said to you, their day to day, you know, I had a client who's going through so much grief trying to get agreement on the high school that their second child would go to because you can imagine, you know, the ex-wife was pushing for a different school to what the older sibling was going to. And he was pulling his hair out. And we got there. We got agreement and we got to the same school as the older sibling, which is the right outcome. And it's so wonderful because it was like I just didn't think this would happen. I would never have approached it the way that we ended up doing it. I was like, hey, I'm so happy with you. So I do do a lot of one on one, which is so fulfilling. And what I am working on in the background now is something that everyone can access, you know, at their leisure on their own time, on demand, where it is the day to day, how to be free of the day to day grind, where you feel so alone and you feel that there's no one you can really reach to help you with all these things where they are coming at you all the time. So I am very busy working away on that. I'm very excited about it. Oh okay so we're to come on that. So we'll have to have you back when that comes out. Yes absolutely and in the meantime if anyone wants to know anything or jump on Instagram, grow up consulting one word and you'll find me there. So always showing a lot of your tips and tricks to her back up. Yes loving it loving it. So you are just such a powerhouse and such a bright shining light and I always love talking to you and I always love seeing everything that you're up to. So make sure you go follow her check her out check her out, check out her stuff and she's just amazing. So thank you Mia. Thank you for coming here and sharing your pearls of wisdom with us and with the world. Thank you so much. It's honestly an absolute privilege and in all honesty. Thank you for all that you do because you changed lives. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to today's episode of Negotiate Your Best Life. I'm Rebecca Zung. June in next week for another edition of Negotiate Your Best Life. Remember if you want more ways to slay and you want more ways to be supported you can always join my membership at joinslay.com forward slash slay. You can always subscribe to my YouTube channel and you can always grab my free Crush My Negotiation prep worksheet at winmynegotiation.com. Remember that today is a great day to start negotiating your best life and I will definitely catch you in the next episode of Negotiate Your Best Life. Thanks so much for listening.