Power, Dependency, and Harm in Elite Sport

[Music] Welcome to Score Podcast. In this series we are constructing what safeguarding means in the world of sports. We will break down concepts, question assumptions, and unpack the biases and beliefs that shape the conversation around safeguarding. We will dig deep right to the core of meaning and understanding. And we are your host, Alexandra Volkov and Anata Tadia. And behind the scenes looking after the audio is Ryan Lobix. Let's be construct safeguarding together. [Music] Today we welcome Catherine Star, connecting from the USA to help us better understand the culture of outlets welfare, safeguarding, and the future of accountability in coaching and leadership. Hi Catherine, we have very happy to have you with us today. Thank you for having me on. I'm excited and looking forward to the conversation. Catherine Star is a swimmer, decorated and CAA athlete and a two-time Olympian. Catherine survived sexual abuse in sports and transformed this trauma into a tool for healing and change. After her career in the pool she became a legal theorist and dedicated her life to advocating for athletes' rights and protecting them from abuse. She also serves as an expert witness and consultant in numerous hyperfile cases, helping shape policies that put athletes' safety and wellbeing first. Catherine, we know you shared your story in the book Rescue Me, and we invite, of course, everyone to read it. But for those who have not yet read your memoir, can you please tell us how you started working with athletes' protection? So when I finished my athletic career, it didn't end with, and I want to do that because it kind of rolls into, you know, where everything started. But when I finished my athletic career, it ended with an impulsive, I'm quitting, you know, not really being understood by my coaches or what was going on. Yet a lot of things were in plain sight. And after that, I went through sort of a decade of, you know, working in the corporate world, and then when I was in the corporate world, I was not, I couldn't understand why I had this traumatic experience. And went into a depression and just completely traumatized. And so in the process of that trauma and just going, okay, well, I got to take care of myself, I was like, okay, what do I know how to do? And it was like, well, let me, let me just go back to swimming. Like, like, I'm skilled in that area. Like, I know my sport, I understand it on such a deep level. And it was a place where I could kind of go and just kind of figure myself out. So I actually, the club that I started coaching at was in the Palisades in California, which I'm sure everybody knows where that is now, because of the recent fires. And so I started coaching in that community. And I had my own program and my own kids, because there was multiple pools. A small little group of very strong swimmers. And the kids were from about 10 to like 16, that range. And the school that it was at, it was very well to do school, but the kid was going there because his parents were both teachers there. And this young boy was a, did ballet. And he was actually really good at ballet, but he was bullied in school. And so he decided until his parents, why I'm not going to do that anymore. And I'm going to swim. And so when he came to me to swim, he wasn't very good. And I'll give you some sort of times to just kind of reconcile with things. So when he first started with me swimming, he was, and this is yards since we swim in yards pool, mostly in the US short course. He was got about 140, he could rep about 140 for 100 yards, like multiple hundreds in a row. And the other kids were closer to that 110, 115. So he was like just to give you like a 30 second gap and 100 is quite significant. And then he just kept going for in my style of coaching was, I was tough, but kind. So I expected like a lot out of these kids, but I always was kind with my voice. I was always kind with my understanding of the athlete. And so in the course of six weeks, this kid comes every day to swim on the team. And he improved his time so much. I mean, he did the work, but I got him to swimming and being able to hold 110s on, you know, and set up 140s, like a 30 second drop in like six weeks on repetition 100s. And he changed this kid's entire demeanor. He was now like part of a community. He was now amongst his peers. He was now like the same as. And what I saw was is how he gave me the coach. And so when we would go to the pool, when we go to swim meets now, he, I just saw how like this dynamic, it just became so clear to me how athletes like turn their will over to their coach. And he asked me things and I felt uncomfortable and it was pretty like ride. And he came from a family of where there was three kids. And so you got one parent with one kid, one parent with another kid. And then you had this kid who was like, well, the coach will can, you know, take, you know, take my kid in those just this inherent trust in the system. And I remember like being in the car with him and I'm like, he would do anything I asked of him. And, and I saw this like vulnerability that I didn't like. It like takes your ability away to even say no. I mean, I'm like a good person. So I didn't see my, I wasn't going to, you know, take advantage. But what I saw was the ability to take advantage. And that was like what was disconcering to me. How do you create a system locally at the club level in order to make sure that the information can get out of the system. And so, and that's the piece where when we have this sort of insular environment, where it's just a coach, just the athlete, parents don't really know what's going on. They just know, you know, like this other thing is you have this vulnerable age 12, 13 years old, you're reading your independence as a young person. So you're stepping into that young adult area. And that's like the most vulnerable place within athletics is that. And this isn't a head of file issue or pedophile is I would say in the UK, because that's for pre-pubescence. Like, and that's what people need to understand about safeguarding rate. It's not random. This isn't, and we're not talking about these random incidences being down in alley and some event happening. We're talking about when you identify yourself within your sport. As soon as you call yourself a swimmer or I'm a runner or I do volleyball, as soon as you identify and have taken on that sport, that's where the vulnerability started. And so when I started to unkill this onion of seeing this situation, it led me down this path. It's like gave me the gift of seeing how harm starts, but should be in place and how to prevent it. Thank you very much for sharing Catherine. And then one thing that you said, and I'll call you as soon as you call yourself a swimmer, as soon as you call yourself an athlete, that's what you say. So this is the first question with which we want to start this conversation about elite athletes. Who is an elite athlete? How do you define that? So well, there's a technical term, right? And so if you're not on the national team or if you're ranked within, it's actually the top eight in the world, eight in your nation, excuse me. And then in the world that's usually like top 25 and it varies by sport and you know when there's team versus individual. However, I would say the vulnerability. When you want to say who is an elite athlete in particular, there's a the pursuit, right? So it's the day. depth of the core of you, right? So, if you're a swimmer, like I knew at eight years old that I was gonna be an Olympian and I was in the Olympics at 16. And so, my vulnerability really started right at eight. That's when I started to say, I'm a swimmer, I had this goal and I think really what you would identify and where you really wanna say, when you, who is an elite athlete, it's when you internally know when you're driven. You're in this space and go, okay, there's the accomplished, right? You know, an elite athlete has been, you know, like on paper, they've proved it. You know, we'll see, oh, look at that kid in the age group, right? Those are elite athletes in the making. In the making part is where the vulnerability part is. So, you know, you can easily say, oh, you're an Olympian there for your an elite athlete or you've been on the national team, you're an elite athlete. The question is, if you were just to put that answer in a box, I don't think you see the whole picture of sport itself and what the pursuit means within the sport. Can you go a little bit deeper? Why does it instigate vulnerability? Sport is a, it's a reward-based system and less not even an opinion it is. I mean, it's like you get accolades, you get praised, you get a sense of power amongst your social circles, amongst your friends. And as that grows into attention on social media, attention in the media, attention, like, so it's a very much a praised reward system and that's where the vulnerability is. As I understand this reward-based system based on praise doesn't happen in a vacuum, right? So there must be someone that is instigating this type of system in the mind of the athlete or it's just driven by the mind of the athlete. The mind of the athlete is gonna be driven by their own talents. So you have a gift. And in my opinion, the purpose of the gift is to perfect it through time. However, and this is where you're gonna see cheating comment because the type of rewards have changed since from just being a strictly amateur to now being financially advantageous. Like it's become now a career even for a young person. You have a young gymnast 'cause their sport develops on the younger side and they're making money, right? And then you have the family system that sees money that like quick fast money, if you will, like these are potentially big payouts with sponsors and all the other systems. So there's the pursuit of the financial, the perception of financial stability. And when you're in a pursuit, think of it like this. So if you're at like the F1, right? Those drivers are in a pursuit and have a path like that they, like the course is predefined, but they're in the pursuit to win, right? And so they have to navigate through cars, but they don't often see when they crash, like that's part of it, right? But they don't see how those come. They just come fast. Coming around a corner, not seeing one, having to adjust 'cause somebody else made a decision you weren't ready for. All of that makes sport vulnerable like across the board in general. And so for me, like how do you live and how do you help an athlete navigate through this system and lose yourself, stay true to your talents, perfect your sport, and focus on the outcome from within. And that's where I think people lose themselves in this process. Catherine, there is something you just mentioned that got stuck in my mind and I'm quoting, "Someone made a decision you were not ready for. "Are you talking about the coach?" And if so, can you give us more insight about the relationship between athlete and coach? You first start having a coach. Most people who become an elite athlete, they start generally on the young side. So they have this predefined definition and you know, if what this person has done for them, which is increase their praise, increase their recognition 'cause like every time you get out of the pool, you have a great race. The whole pool's like, "Hey, good job." Like it feels good, right? So in your coach contributed to those experiences, right? So it's because of your coach that you're allowed and get to experience these rewards. So then you start deferring and turning your will over to the person that's developing your internal praise. You're, you know, the social system as to which you've accomplished in the world of sport. And in your, like, you know, people may know a swimmer or not a swimmer outside of swimmer, you know, outside of the swimming circles, but your coach in you and your dynamic is what you believe in this person to help you with your goals. And when there's, certainly when there's money involved within that goals, then the dynamic changes even further. - Who are the other stakeholders in this athlete coach relationships? And what do you think should be or ease their responsibility? - Well, it depends on the age. You know, so you have a young person, you're gonna have the whole family dynamics. But once the family likes to have your parents from a, you know, so from the younger ages, but then the, as the, sometimes the parents stay involved, but usually they sort of transition. If you're talking elite, you know, Olympian, national team level on any country anywhere, the parents either stay as your entourage or you get an entourage with an agent and with, you know, a manager and, you know, then you have your coach. See, you start having like a collection of people that are, it's a business. It's become like this business unit within sport. So then you look at, well, what safeguards could you have from the athlete? So all of that infrastructure can be in place, but the influences that aren't, don't overtake the potential for harm. - What we are trying to reach here to unpack where this vulnerability comes from in elite outlets. So there is total dependency on the system, on your entourage and on your coach. And that's when the athlete is losing agency? You lose agency when you have a goal, right? So when I was eight years old, I had a goal that I was going to be an Olympian. So I had this pre-ordained thing within my own path. As harm came along, it was accepted and allowed to happen because my focus was, I'm gonna be an Olympian. So it's like I had my blinders on, I can't say thing, I can't do anything. And so the vulnerability is the goal. The vulnerability is what you feel like sort of pre-ordained you to accomplish, right? So I mean, if you're pursuing, for example, like a doctorate degree or a dentist or like a doctor, what if you're pursuing something and you have somebody who's abusive along the way, then there's a level of, well, I have to tolerate this, right? Because you don't see another path, like you can't move, you can't, like it's not simple to like go from one orbit or one community to another. Like there's a lot of things to unpack and remove. I talk about breaking down sexual abuse in sport. It was one of the earlier pieces that I wrote, I need to post it again, 'cause it's actually quite helpful. What I broke down was is that there's just basic pedophilia, which I refer to as just sort of the sickness of the country, the community, the world, really, 'cause I think everywhere has that problem, I don't think. You know, there's a place that doesn't. And then you get into like a single actor, you know, abuse within your coach. And then there's like, that there's like, next level of abuse, which is, or the, let me just get to the top of this whole thing, which is, I refer to it as athlete domestic violence. And if you look at what a domestic violence relationship looks like, you have an abuser in a victim. But the victim knows how to manage the abuser. So then when the beating happens, the police show up, and they know that they can't say anything, at least, you know, sort of the dynamics over, well, they can't say anything. They have to stay because they, it's easier to navigate the harm than to not be in the, and then to go somewhere else where you don't know it. Or it's easier to know the web that you've created. It's like a spider web is easier to know your way around the, the web as dysfunctional as it may be than one without a web. But often what happens is to go back into the dynamic because you're fear leaving. So that's another vulnerability, right? You see, you're fear leaving. So with athletes, then what happens is your teammate see, or the people around your, your ecosystem see, this is okay for you, right? So people see the dynamic. They see the harm. They see the abuse. And then the community perception now is it must be desired. It must be consented when that's not the truth. And so then it stays in the system because now you think your peers are like see it as something you want. So you can't speak up. So they end up not being supportive. And so then it creates this like reinforcing environment. So athletes are in my opinion, especially on the elite level. And as you go deeper into sport, that dynamic becomes harder and harder to separate. And just to stay on this identification of the type of violence that are predominance in elite athletes, can you tell us what's not happening the most? What happens most often terms of violence? I originally did a survey. Let me just kind of give you the results of this survey. And I think it would answer this question pretty clearly. So the survey, the questions were if you've been abused by physical violence, you know, verbal, emotional and sexual violence, right? But then within those categories, we asked if it was a single time, multiple times over one year or multiple times over multiple years. So on each one of these categories of all the the whole thing was about 60% of the people who answered the survey was multiple times multiple years. So all the data and each one of the abuse sections, each one of the violent sections, right? Where always not a single time was happened, but the predominant answer within the category was also multiple times multiple years. And within that sexual abuse was 25% of the people came back that it was multiple times over multiple years. So the majority of all of that abuse was not an isolated incident. How does this happen? It starts in what you love is your sport. And it's now become enmeshed with an order to love your sport. You have to be violated by those that are helping you and guiding you towards the love of your sport. So it becomes like a learned harm. Can you better explain this concept of learned harm? This is the first time we hear about it and we're curious to stay on this a bit. Let me put it in within an institutional concept because I think that that'll help. So if you show up at a program and the coach has known relationships with multiple athletes on the team. So when the coach then pushes and violates and goes past your boundaries and that you end up being the next victim, you learn that other athletes were engaged with the coach. And then you look at the institution that had no boundaries and nothing in place to prevent that from happening. So then you come along and you're like the third, fourth, fifth athlete, you learned that harm before you even were harmed was part of the culture of that particular program. It's quite shocking what you're saying. Are you talking about nowadays? When did you do this survey? Because my question being, are there now some checks in place to prevent this from happening? And this vicious cycle that seems like it doesn't end? The scenario I just gave you was a legal case that I was involved in. So you read a lot about the various individuals that have spoken up and I won't give you the name of the case or anything like that or sport because I don't want to cause any confidentiality concerns. But speaking in a very generalized situation, that was just a couple of years ago. It wasn't even that long ago and you would think, well, we have safe sport. We have, you know, all the safeguards in place in the UK and in Europe. Like there's so much going on because I ask myself the same thing with all the safeguards and all the things in place, how do these things continue to happen? When Donato asked you about the learned harm, you were answering my next question about the system. So what you're talking about that athletes become vulnerable in the system. So what's wrong with the system where athletes pursuit for excellence makes them vulnerable? Where do you think the core of the problem lies? Well, I think this is a multi layer thing and I'm going to add in how I ended up going over into this other area. So almost every legal case that I have been involved in and I've been over 30 plus legal cases. So I've read all these stories in depth and all the institutional choices and lack of choices that have happened along the way. When I look at things, it's certainly in the US and I'll kind of explain how like the legal side of thing is and when you look at institutional harm. So how all these legal cases started was via technology. Snapchat, instant messaging, all of it started outside of plain sight. A Snapchat is a very strong core of how a lot of these cases have started. Hence why I started looking into digital abuse and how that happened and how that was a lot to happen. Technology creates a vulnerability in the community itself and why you ask yourself why is this still allowed to happen is that there's still vulnerable access that's open. From an institutional standpoint, what have they done? And I always look and I see, okay, well the coach that's hired, you look at their background and they're like, well, they didn't have the background. They weren't checked properly. They weren't like so there's the the failure started in how they brought in the coach into the environment to begin with. You find out that the previous place didn't fire them. They let them go, but they had knowledge that the coach had been allegedly or potentially because no one really looked into the situation potentially could have been in a relationship with a coach. So you have this sort of pass the personal long without learning the truth about the person to begin with. Many of these sort of elite athletes are actually over the age of 18 so they fall out of any type of legal protection and falls into this area of consent. But then I challenge the consent aspect of it and was it really consent? So when you ask how do these things keep happening? When you walk on that pool deck, your first natural instinct is to assume this person does not have any intent. How come abusers have been allowed to do what they do on such a scale? Well, each individual experiences abuse differently. Some athletes will accept it not by choice, not it's because they don't see a way out. Other athletes leave the system and so you don't hear about it. So there's not a whole lot of ways to like stop it or change it. Like in my opinion, like it's the emotional and tanglement that happens and And a lot of abuse happens like still that way. Frankly, I feel like there's this education component. There's the administrative environment that's part of it doesn't have the awareness. And many programs you have, volunteer parents, and you have, like so the cycle of people only stay there for in a club program. They're only going to stay there for a few years. In a university program, you're sort of three years. And so you don't really have this level of consistency. And then on top of it, from a volunteer environment, a lot of people don't want to pay to have any type of further education or anything like that. And then if it's free, it feels like it's an obligation to do and not a meaningful change to do. So in the US, you have to take sexual harassment training every year. And it's like an hour or two hours of, okay, fine. And you know, you click through and you take the test. But it's not applied. It's not applied into the system. So there's knowledge, but application is missing. I have so many questions on this point. And I think you transition to another aspect that we wanted to discuss with you, which is education, awareness, raising, prevention, measures, and safeguarding policies are in place. In European, an recurrent safeguarding policy is addressing the real causes, are they having an impact. You mentioned now that there might be a disconnect in an educational program. It mainly is a ticked box. And you do the course, online course, or whatever it is. And then it doesn't translate into real life, into practice. And you share a bit more about this. Well I haven't done an exhaustive review of all the education out there, but I find it doesn't translate very well. It's either for a very young child. And so as an elite athlete, when you like, look at the material, it's often a very young person's face on there. Something I criticized when I was first starting this is that you would show pictures of a 5, 6, 7, 8 year old and you're like 20 and you're one of the best in the world. And then you're having to look at this safeguard stuff. It doesn't relate. It doesn't translate. So I think what people fail to understand is grooming. I think they fail to articulate that in a meaningful way. I feel they fail to understand who their audience is. And by the type of education that I've seen developed, it's leaned more to the every day athlete and not necessarily the elite athlete. And that's why you're going to find out years from now that the elite athlete didn't really identify with the material that was presented to them. And you could have it all, the stuff not work. Personally, I feel like we could spend more time to create relatable content. In one of the interviews, you've mentioned that one of the aspects of your work is translating athletes' language into actionable responses. And in your book, you mentioned that you didn't know how to express how to explain what was happening to you. And then other survivors, they also say they had no language to explain. Sometimes they didn't know what was happening. My question is how to talk about abuse. And then also what do you mean when you say translating athletes' language into actionable response? So I know my sports swimming backwards and forwards. So when people say, "Oh, my coach had me do this set." And then we had to do this and do that. I hear, "Oh, that's not normal. That's not what they should be doing." And then I also hear, "Wait a minute, this athlete doesn't have the ability to communicate what's going on." I had sort of a vision to do some things around the athlete within. We're so programmed to be forced from the coach and the influencers from the outside that you lose your sense of self from within. Like you become so dependent from your environment. And so when you have an athlete that's, they didn't have language because they've, when they haven't been taught how to articulate it. And then two, what they're taught to communicate is their sport event, their sport experience, their sport events, what they're doing in training, what's happening like around them. So if you can't pick up the subtleties within that conversation, you're going to miss what they're saying. And then we have a million dollar question about the solutions. What is the solution? How do you see the way forward? The very generic question would be how to create a safe environment for outlets. I think that every athlete, especially when you get to the elite level, needs to develop skills for communication. They need to develop and be able to reflect back in and understand what's harmful to them. And I feel like that bridge of communication is key to not just surviving, but coming out of sport and transitioning into life afterwards. So there's that transition that people don't even talk about. And I definitely think at the high level, if you haven't developed that skill and you get lost in, do this, do that, you know, environment. So that's one aspect of it. Within the environment, if every sort of elite program and had a person that understood like how abuse dynamics are developed and inherent within a program, within a team, within a program, where they could be like, hey, this is going on. You have someone who understands right flex. You have someone who understands how they've gotten too deep into the system. And when you have somebody who's sort of like attuned that way, you can your environment then can be sort of free to pursue their sport. And I look at it as like there's a hand to pull you back out. And so that's what I feel like is missing like this human component where we're relying on videos and we're relying on questionnaires and emails and those are great, but they're not the complete package. You have to understand. This is a human experience. And so you need a human to help you out of it. How can entourage help parents, be a support group, etc. How can they help in this journey? I think that they need to understand what their role is, especially parents who take on multiple roles, manage, sponsorships. They can be part of the problem or they can look for to be a solution. And for me, I want to make sure that the parents have also a way that they have a way to communicate understand is this supporting us is helping and not losing sight and having some discernment between a goal and harm and not allowing harm to be packaged within the goal. And how should the system change so there is less opportunity for abuse? Well that goes down to institutions. I think within an institution, they need to have better education training. What I find is is that they have the information, but they don't act on the information and then what they'll say later is they only would have known that in hindsight. And really when a system needs to do is not assume what's going on, rumors should be explored and not left in the system. And vulnerable communities should have heightened awareness to them, especially within the paracommunity. And then one of the biggest things is to have the notion that this won't happen here is one of the most vulnerable ways of being in your environment. I'm still thinking about what you mentioned before about the human component and I would like to make a connection to what you just said and what you mentioned before. I could say that one of the challenges that people argue is that it's hard to scale, like to create solutions that are effective. It's a big challenge. And so how do you see the human component taking place? Can you give us an example? Would it be someone to talk to, to report abuse? Would it be a counselor? Would it be a psychological support? How can this take place? I think it could be a combination of any one of those people, but I think every like elite program should have somebody just on staff to be available to respond to these incidences. So whether they're a counselor, whether PhD, like I'm not there, those, but I understand my sport and I could tell you what's going on because I'll see it because I'm highly attuned. I see grooming. I'm skilled at what I do because I see all of those things and you can't replicate just my own version of it, but I do believe that a swimmer who would run by something or an athlete and I apologize for keeping saying swimmers every sport because I've worked on every sport and just about it and all the dynamics are the same. It's just how they developed had to do something with the intricacies of that type of sport. If it's stuck inside of you, right, and if somebody doesn't understand your community, then you immediately don't have a place to go. Each community needs to have somebody who understands it so the information can get out and that's why we have an athlete welfare advocate. We spoke about education that should be connected to application that should be applicable. We spoke about having stuff on site. What other safety mechanisms can be established for children in their path towards a lead sport or competitive sport? So I think that any young person who has talent, doing well in age group and everything else, they should be surrounded at that point with tools and infrastructure so they start their journey off in a strong place. In essence, I feel like there's a whole entourage that can be developed around sport that's healthy and non-toxic and non-violent in what have you. There's so much we can do to expand the system to allow excellence without compromising yourself through the process. I keep on thinking about the removal of agency from athletes and the big component that you mentioned about vulnerability and I'm wondering if in your work and in your research you've come across that early specialization in athletes is one of the factors that could create space for abuse. And if so, should there be some checks in place to prevent early specialization in kids in children? You know, this is kind of a hard one. So like as you read my book, I was three and a half. I loved swimming. And I think there was anything wrong with that. And I've listened and I've gone to conferences and I've listened to people talk about having a variety and I never was going to go off to gymnastics or do something else. I mean, when my heart was already in one sport, when I'm a little unusual, so I will say that. But I'm probably not unusual for an elite athletes experience. So would it have changed anything? You know, I don't think that that's the issue because why not develop the passion of what you have and the gifts you have? I think you have to go in with education, awareness, tools and an understanding ahead of time, there are vulnerabilities on this path. For a young parent, you have a young talented kid, let's help you be successful in your sport and on the journey of your sport. And it's the on the journey part that's the vulnerability of it all. And let's not forget it's not only athletes who are the recipient of education, but also coaches and to Raj, education to healthier relationships in sports, but also beyond sports. From your experience, can you tell us if there are any policies and frameworks in other sectors that sports industry can learn from? What I'm finding is sports probably the leader in addressing abuse. A lot of the barriers that have come down from sport, like they have fought like tooth and nail with, we can't afford it. It's too hard. We can't go into it. I see this next journey in the tech industry. And there's laws that are changing, like there's a digital safety act in the EU and then the UK has a similar one. I've criticized them both, so I don't think they're entirely getting to the issue, because it's not just youth that are vulnerable in these environments. Institutions they've always had sexual harassment and abuse and what have you within the work environment? But I think there's a lot in general across all industries that we can learn from. What we're doing right and many ways to improve. And I think that just in general, the industry is very young and the approach and seeing how do you excel as an athlete and have a safe journey getting there. That's the part that has plenty of room to grow and expand. This is so nice to hear that sport is actually a leader as you mentioned, a "drancing abuse" and especially an understanding cultural harm. And I think that another important factor that we didn't go in death on is your comment about technology that is acting as an enabler. And I think this is a quite important factor because we're seeing more and more in the digital space that abuse can happen in multiple ways and the industry is not yet much regulated. So there is room opportunity for sport to be the leader also in supporting athletes and sportsperson on this front. But unfortunately our time is coming to an end. There is so much that we would still like to talk with you about, perhaps we can do another episode in the future. But for now, is there anything else you would like to share with our listener that we didn't ask you or didn't cover before? No, I think we've done a great job and I'll just make one little point on in the digital world is that my experience from working so much in sport is allowing me to then start shape how I see having written several legal theories on how to reframe and hold accountability across that whole digital environment. And I did write one for the EU in the UK called in the systemic issues that are going on in that area. But it's all based in comes from the core of my knowledge in this area. Thank you very much Catherine for this interesting conversation and again, Donate and I will want to recommend everyone to read your book, rescue me and to check your website to see what you do. And before we let you go, is there any other book or article that you would like to recommend our listeners check out if they want to learn more about safe sports? Highly recommend the late Silia Bracken Rich's book, Spoil Sport. If you work in the industry or you're interested, it's a wonderful book to refer to and it's a technical book. But one of the things that Silia always said was sport is like a lower case culture. It's a microcosm of what's happening in our culture. So sport has the opportunity to lean and move ourselves forward. And I think with that book, if you're working or interested or want to pursue a path in this area, best one to have on hand. Thank you very much, Catherine. It was amazing to have you with us today. Thank you Catherine. Thank you for listening. This show is produced by Score, Sport Think Tank. With Switzerland Bay's Association, we are dedicated to creating safe spaces for honest and meaningful conversations that positively impact the world of sport. Special thanks to the entire score team working behind the scenes, to our brilliant sound wizard, Ryan Lobbix and to our wonderful graphic designer Natalia Plaza Sanchez. Be sure to check out our LinkedIn page for more information about this episode and also the work that we do. And we invite you to explore the other episodes as we continue this journey of deconstructing safeguarding in sport. [Music]