Popcast: Olivia Rodrigo Tried Writing Love Songs. Then Life Got Messy.

Hey, it's Michael. Today, we're going to do something a little bit different. We're going to hand our show over to our colleagues at PopCast, the Times pop culture show. It's hosted by music critic John Caramonica and culture reporter Joe Coscarelli. You've heard both of them on The Daily before, talking about Bad Bunny's Super Bowl performance, not to mention Joe's interview with Taylor Swift, which was featured in our episode a few weeks ago about the 30 greatest living American songwriters, except, of course, for Billy Joel, who got snubbed. The big news is that PopCast will now be coming out every week as both an audio and video show featuring some of the biggest names in music and culture, like A$AP Rocky, Anne Hathaway, Rosalia, and many more. We love what PopCast is doing, and we want to share it with you. So take a listen to John and Joel. I actually don't think I've ever really done a podcast before, too. I don't think I've ever done a podcast before. So they sort of aggregated in a way like you were writing songs and then you took a step back and said huh yeah it is kind of like boom boom boom yeah exactly but I'm really happy with the way it turned out and I think Dan and I like sort of like after writing breakup songs and stuff we like had the fun challenge of going back and like actually tweaking some of the love songs are on the record and making them a little more honest and more sad and creepy like the song purple is it was originally a love song which feels like a big turning point on the album yeah it's like six songs and it's purple and it's like that's when like the doubt creeps in and then the cure it's like you flip the record and it's the cure and that's sort of like the unraveling as we say of of um this narrative and uh so yeah I was really happy with the way that it turned out and sort of sort of after the fact we've already written like the first like maybe six songs of the record and writing the more like sad sort of decomposed um songs on the record we we kind of like uh post-mortem kind of went in and changed things and and sort of made it a whole body of work rather than um you know like little moments is there a specific line or or stanza in one of the first songs that you remember being like okay I really need to reframe this I really need to deepen this is there something that sticks in your mind yeah I mean like the honeybee lyric like having honeybee honeybee is one of my favorite songs on the record and then having it also tying it back into the last song I think was really nice for me to just sort of made it feel more like I don't think that it's a it's not a concept album I think it's doing a disservice to actual concept albums but I think it's like a capsule yeah and so like little things like that are changing purple or putting that little honeybee thing kind of towards the end of the process maybe feel like okay it's really an album now and it's really telling this like one story I would go so far as to call it a concept though you think the narrative is so tight like what is good kid mad city yeah if not a song if not an album with a beginning and an end sure and then you come back to the beginning like the fact that drop dead the opening track is like essentially before the first date and leading into the early excitement and butterflies of a relationship and falling in love and one of the things I really like is there's different slices of what happiness in a relationship look like yeah as you say there's these little moments of doubt that start to creep in when did you realize that you had an ending because if you're writing this in real time presumably you were as you know floating on air as you were in some of the these early tracks like where did you think the album could end if you stayed in that zone yeah that's a good question I mean I think I always knew that I didn't want it to be like even stupid song to me I I was really inspired by um this book simple passion by any or no it's like this she's having this affair with this person and she's not quite happy kind of just going insane like everything she does she's reminded of this person the longing like overcomes her and I was like really I was really inspired by just all of the ways in which love makes you insane and miserable you know what I mean I think that there's a lot more there's a lot more to mine there than just like yay like oh my god he's so hot he loves me yeah that's everything um and so I I was always kind of curious about trying to like mine these more depressing feelings out of these love songs I think initially I thought that that was what the record was going to be just all love songs but trying to inject some sadness into them and then obviously sadness in a real or kind of more whole way crept its way into the end I I guess I when I started making it I didn't know how it was going to end and I think that's how I always start all the records but totally and you talk about the destabilizing nature of love and there's a song like maggots for brains you know which you have mentioned previously that multiple songs on this album are inspired by Miranda and Steve from Sex in the City and I knew that going in before I heard it and that was one of the songs where I'm like this is a very Miranda song this idea that she's like you know my brain is mush yeah basically is that is that a Miranda yeah yeah it's from the scene where Miranda is getting back together with Steve and she's like whenever something funny happens I always want to tell you about it anytime something funny happens I want to tell you and it's one of the lyrics in the in the second verse um but yeah that's one of my favorite songs on the record I really love it I think I think when we made that one like sonically I was like oh yeah like this is this feels right and this feels like the point in time that I'm at I think I I kind of knew and Dan and I who I made the record with like I think I like love rock music and I have such a reverence for rock music and it's all that I like really listen to but I think going into it I felt like a little like it wasn't it didn't feel exciting to me or something like like rock in the traditional sense of like power chords like distortion blah blah that's not here on the song yeah but I think the song like that feels like alternative to me without being like I love rock and roll by Joan Jett which is one of my favorite songs love that song but like you know it it was in a more subtle way and um that was more exciting to me than writing like some like really banger thing which maybe I love those songs maybe I'll do that later but I think like making that song was like okay this is the I kind of like figured out what I like wanted the sound to be a little bit or like what was going to be different about this record um it's interesting to hear you talk about those that style of rock not being as much of a draw as it was in the prior two albums because obviously there are certain moments on this album that are really living in like the 82 to 85 world you're you're sort of getting the new romantics you're getting the cure you're getting maybe little talking heads that I wrote Devo down at one point some new order yeah but what is that sound and style signal to you that the pop punk and the sort of chords that you've been playing with previously don't signal yeah it just felt more exciting there's something about the restraint of it that felt nice or I I was just really obsessed with that type of music too while I was making it like I I did Glastonbury with Robert Smith which was insane I don't care about you I'd always been a fan of the cure but like since meeting him and like getting to hang out with him I like kind of went back and listened to all those like new wave bands like that and I was living in England at the time so obviously you get a lot of like English band inspo and for me in songwriting the sentiment always comes first and so I knew that I wanted to write songs about how it felt to be in love and love feels like that to me it kind of feels like that vibe like that that just the emotional quality of it I can't describe it it's just like that's that's how it felt it didn't feel like like yeah you know what I mean you also you know you've been in the band for a long time you know you've been in the band for a long time you know you've been in the band for a long time you used I think a clever trick where you connect the new wave of the 80s with music influenced by new wave I think like there's some songs on here that sound like La Tigra yeah you know instead of Bikini Kill you know both uh both Kathleen but different different sides of the big Olivia fan Kathleen of course you know I had a thought when listening to my way that there's like some no doubt in there yeah I know you're a big return of yeah I know you're a big return of yeah I know you're a big return of uh girl and you mentioned the cure who spanned both of those eros who continued making music through that and they are a through line through the album you allude to just like heaven and drop dead the first song then there's a song called the cure which will be the next song that people hear from the album that comes after purple in the track list and that's the moment where you say you're punning obviously on the band title in some ways but you say you're punning obviously on the band title in some ways but you say you're punning obviously on the band title in some ways but you love's not fixing me it's not it's it's not the beyond the end oh can you talk a little bit about the writing of the cure and what that song means the writing of the cure and what that song means the writing of the cure and what that song means to the album's yeah I think that song is to the album's yeah I think that song is to the album's yeah I think that song is the thesis statement of the album you seem pretty the thesis statement of the album you seem pretty bad for a girl so in love I remember bad for a girl so in love I remember bad for a girl so in love I remember making that song and feeling so excited making that song and feeling so excited making that song and feeling so excited like okay I know what I'm like trying to like okay I know what I'm like trying to like okay I know what I'm like trying to say with this thing um I love that song say with this thing um I love that song say with this thing um I love that song so much it makes me like emotional to so much it makes me like emotional to so much it makes me like emotional to listen to it now all the pretty girls in listen to it now all the pretty girls in listen to it now all the pretty girls in the foreground of my mind the foreground of my mind the foreground of my mind I I don't know how I was on my couch and I I don't know how I was on my couch and I I don't know how I was on my couch and I played the chords and um wrote the the I played the chords and um wrote the the I played the chords and um wrote the the verse lyrics and thought that that was verse lyrics and thought that that was verse lyrics and thought that that was really interesting and um brought it to really interesting and um brought it to really interesting and um brought it to Dan and we finish it together and um yeah Dan and we finish it together and um yeah Dan and we finish it together and um yeah it just means so much to me I think it just means so much to me I think it just means so much to me I think I think that that was a realization that I think that that was a realization that had and you can only have when you're like in like a real like big girl relationship I think that for so long when I was younger I was always like reaching for something was like oh if I have this then I'll be happier if I have this thing in my even in my career I'll be happier if I like have this guy and he loves me the way I always thought he would love me like I'll feel better about myself and um you know slowly throughout the course of my life and and this relationship that I'm talking about I kind of just realized that the issues that you have aren't just going to be solved by some other person like something can distract you but like it and also yeah they're your issues I also even think that falling in love actually makes those issues even clearer to you I think that's why it's so important like some of my friends are like well I'm not gonna marry them like why would I you know be in this relationship with them I'm like that it's like the way that you know yourself the most in this world like you're not gonna marry them you're not gonna marry them you're not gonna marry them you could you know yourself so deeply and so intimately by like falling for people and being raw and gross and like making mistakes and I think that that's such a thing that's unique to being in a romantic relationship and so I think I was also figuring that out I think I was in a romantic relationship that was actually real and intimate for the first time and being like whoa this is holding a mirror to me and I'm seeing shit that I don't like about myself and that was a tough realization and I think that that's embedded in the cure too and um yeah I I really I really love this song it's one of my favorite songs I've ever written I think it's um also in the context of the album you know where it sits you know just after the middle but it's long you're lingering on it it's like it's like you're you're telegraphing something just simply by saying you're gonna have to sit with this for five or six minutes like it's like that's you're coding the meaning in the lyrics but you're also coding in the structure it feels like yeah yeah I think that's sort of like the apex of the album too like I think in all the love songs leading up to it like there's a hint of like maybe this sort of dissatisfaction or like oh I really miss them and that's why I'm sad or blah blah blah and I think when it gets to the cure it's like the most honest part where like all the artifice is stripped away and it's I love a song obviously I mean I love writing like a power ballad that like really builds but um like when I finish listening to it it feels like it's some sort of like catharsis or like some sort of acceptance of like that this is your fate how do you know as a songwriter when something is worth writing a song about and especially I mean look I'm I haven't been 20 in my 20s for at least a few years four or five years but I I vividly remember the intensity of feeling I remember the the dynamism of being really up and then really down and then going back to how you felt a week earlier and kind of like the instability of that and if you're experiencing feelings quite a lot of times you're experiencing feelings quite intensely and you have a creative outlet for it what takes it from something that's in here to like damn I gotta I gotta get this out is there a specific intensity of feeling is it a detail how do you know yeah it's a good question um I don't know I think you really everything every time is different I'm a big like quantity over quality songwriter I write all the time about lots of things um and then sometimes you stumble upon something that's good I really don't know there's not like a like I'm never like oh I have an idea and it's gonna be an awesome idea you just have to like you're not stingy about it no I'm not stingy about it I I have some friends who are the opposite and who like write five songs a year and they're the best five songs you've ever heard I write like 250 songs that are the worst and then I write like three songs that I love um but I just love the process of writing I love being alone and like playing my guitar or like writing things down it's like so much fun for me I think I know if I've like stumbled upon something good if I really want to listen to it like a week after I write it okay or if it makes me feel like oh yeah that is how I was feeling and that's a really clear concise way of saying it but I don't know there's it's different every time and you're working it out in the room as well like you have your step in the process then you bring it in with Dan and then sort of I'm sure there's things that don't make it past that meetings change so much even like you guys listening to the album like I like I listened to some of the mixes before we sent it to you guys and it's like even like a month after making it it just kind of like feels so different in your body like you just have totally different associations with it and I don't know there's there's no science behind it I'm still figuring it out I don't know you mentioned the ugly sides of even being in love and one of them that you touch on on this album and what I think is a interesting way is jealousy and being territorial which is something that has been present in your earlier music but not as you say it from the vantage of a big girl relationship this song my way that I mentioned earlier strays a little from the central relationship narrative and I thought you make a pretty direct choice to target it at another woman in the tradition of great songs like Jolene or Misery Business or Better Than Revenge and given your standing among young women and how important of a songwriter you are to your audience did that feel like a risk to write a song that pointed where you call yourself a petty bitch yeah you know what I haven't given it so much thought I think I was just really in the heat of the moment writing it and that's how it is and sometimes you're like I really need to get this out and I'm fucking pissed and maybe isn't the most evolved thing ever to say but I really loved the song and I love the way it turned out and I love I love the sonics I was going through like some Gwen Stefani vibes in there no pun intended but yeah I really love that song it's it's the album isn't very angry at all and I think that's the one angry touchstone um but uh yeah I'm really proud of it I stand by it is it okay if you're the villain is that okay yeah whatever I don't know no I'm being serious because like I think it's fun to play that character but I also think that certain songwriters and certain pops huge pop stars have had anxiety over the years of like I'm known to be one style of person but I am a complex person I have these different sets of feelings but sometimes they won't put it in songs but they're like probably like two moments on this album where I was like I think she might be okay with being the villain like I wonder and I wonder if you think of it in those terms um gosh it's an interesting question I've never really thought about it I don't know this sounds like a cop-out but I just like know who I am as a person really well and I know my intentions and things and I know why I write songs and I know that I'm like a nice person and like I like I'm not suggesting no no no I'm not you know but I I think I think like that that type of criticism only really hurts when there's like something in it that I like think is like a little bit true like if something if someone were to like criticize something that I was already doubting I'd be like oh god like that's the stuff that gets to me but I don't know I also think that pop music in a really beautiful way everyone is projecting their own experiences onto you like that's the type of songwriting that I do and that's I love that type of songwriting that's why I got into it like so many heroes that like do that type of songwriting and so I don't take it so personally you when I listen to my favorite pop songs I'm thinking about my experiences and like me in that pop song like and how I felt with like my ex-boyfriend and blah blah blah like I'm not really thinking about that person and like the exact same thing I'm thinking about my ex-boyfriend and blah blah blah like I'm not really thinking about the specifics that they're talking about it's and people can relate to feeling angry and pissed and jealous and territorial and whatever it is it's like that that is as valid yeah of a feeling uh as what would traditionally and I think the narrative will reveal itself over time I think like whatever I I think that that's out of out of my control and under my business and right fair enough since driver's license one of the other things you've been praised for is your ability to drop a well-placed curse word uh especially in effortless ways and I think that's a really good thing to do and I think that's a really good thing to do and I think that's a really good thing to do and I think that's a really good thing to do and you know vampire also has a great one in its chorus uh it feels like you're a little bit more sparing with it this time around I I mentioned yeah bitch I think I counted two other f-bombs there's a there's a goddamn in there yeah but I thought you really saved the most impactful one for what to me is like the defining line of the album and sort of the thesis statement outside of the cure they say modern they say modern loves a cruel endeavor to that I say fuck it whatever was that intentional the cutting back so it was not to consider it a crutch to really save it for those gut punch moments honestly no I I remember Dan and I the other day were like doing like clean versions of all the songs and we're like damn this usually this would take us two days back when we were doing sour and this took us an hour um but no I think I I think I'm just feeling less angsty these days I don't know what it is I think maybe I swore more as a teenager as we all do maybe way too much which I've only realized now that I have a two-year-old who repeats what I say oh my god and now I'm like oh I really need it I really need to cut it's tough damn my producer has a two-year-old too and we hang out with her obviously a lot in the studio she goes up to her dad the other day and she's like daddy why does Olivia say fuck so much and I was like see this is what I'm trying to this is what I'm trying to avoid I was like oh she got me by name she's really funky the other day also we were we were in the car we like picked her up from school or whatever and I was singing along to the song on the radio and she's like starts like crying she's like daddy I hate it when Olivia sings and I was like oh no I gotta reconsider a lot right now probably because she can associate it with daddy going to work yeah that's true wow that's true wow that's that's grim kind of well you know like it's her psychiatrist is gonna be down the line for that I can't listen to Olivia right we go I can't that's really really fun that's really wow the tension on this album in the arc is about trusting another person and also trusting yourself there are so many moments on your last album where I feel like it's you singing about how vast the world has become and how challenging that was to navigate and how do you identify in the real world not in art but in the real world how a person is trustworthy or is a person trustworthy like what are the things that are your either triggers or touchstones and how do you identify in the real world and how do you have those things changed over the last four or five years yeah how do you know if someone's trustworthy god that's such a hard question I don't know if I have like a profound answer that's all right this is look the podcast is at least 10 therapy yeah I know I feel that um I don't know when you know my biggest red flag it's just not profound at all but like it's all right when I hang out with someone and they're like daddy gang 3000 no um I whenever I meet someone and they're like yeah like a few of my friends they just like they just ghosted me I don't know what happened I'm like calls coming from inside the house like that's yeah a few it's like one maybe Maybe like, okay, but I don't even know. That's a real spill. That's a real spill. Like having like intense falling outs with your friends. Like I've never really had that in my life. I think, I think maybe once or twice, but like when people, that's a repeated occurrence. Sure. I'm like, hmm, interesting, interesting, interesting. I think friendships are like the biggest litmus test for whether or not I trust someone. I think like someone being able to hold down a long-term beautiful friendship is like the best thing that you could do. That's like, you're, you're, you have emotional depth. You could care about other people. And other people trust you. Other people trust you, which is huge. Yeah. I think friendship is a big indicator, but I don't know. I'm still figuring out. I'm sure I'll get betrayed more in my life. Who knows? I think vampires are really good example of trying to figure that out in real time and maybe being fooled by someone who you thought was interested in you, but then it was really after your fame or your notoriety or trying to get something from you. Bloodsucker fame. Fucker bleeding me dry like a goddamn vampire. I think that when I listen to that album, it's like, it's so interesting when you're in it, you like, can't tell what it is, but when I listen to it, like these days, like I was like rehearsing for a show the other day and like listened to all the songs back. It's just like, really is like a 19 year old disillusionment with the world and just feeling like so confused. And I feel like I'm definitely less disillusioned these days, but like looking back, yeah, I was like betrayal and like finding your footing. And I think, I think. I did. I remember going into the album being like, I don't want to write about like being newly famous because that sucks. And like, I hate when people do that. And I think that there was hopefully like it was in there, like a little tactfully sprinkled in, but I think that that was a huge part of my experience. But I don't think that it's unlike any other 19 year old going to college. You're just like trusting people. You're so open. You're around all these people that you've never been around and you're like making all these mistakes and like figuring shit out in real time. How do you look back on guts, not only artistically, but as a moment in your career, because you talk about this pressure that comes with a sophomore album, you know, people invoke the sophomore slump a lot in terms of, I think exactly what you're saying, where it's like you, your whole life goes into your first album, then between your first and your second album, if the first one does really well, maybe the only thing you have to write about is sort of what it's like to become newly famous and is that enough, et cetera. That album was successful on its own terms, of course. But I wonder how you look back on how it was received and how it performed and how that influenced what you did on your third album, because I was really struck by the fact that this album doesn't feel like you're searching for smash hits necessarily. It felt like you wanted to make an album album, a capital A album with a beginning, middle and end. Thank you. And I wonder if any of that came from either how guts went or didn't go for you. Yeah, that's a really great question. I mean, I think it was hard. I mean, looking back, I have so much compassion myself. That was crazy. What happened with Sour was crazy. And at the time, I didn't realize how crazy it was. Like, obviously, I was like, wow, I'm so happy. I'm grateful. But I didn't realize that that, like, is insane. And I was 17 when it, like, all happened. It's so wild. And, like, if I were to, like, be an outsider and, like, watch that happen to something, you know, be like, oh, my God, like, so I think I couldn't, I didn't realize it at the time. But so I have, like, a lot of compassion for myself, even after the aftermath of Sour. Like, that was so much pressure. Like, how, that, it was so insane. And just, like, people on the internet and, like, all this craziness. And when you're 19, you don't know who you are in general. You don't know who your real friends are. You don't know who you want to date. You don't know what, like, you really want to be doing with your life in a real concrete sense. And so it's just, it was a lot. And looking back, I'm so proud of that record. I think putting it out, I felt a little like, oh, God, it's like, I'm never going to make anything, like, as big and as good as Sour and blah, blah, blah, blah. But, like, looking back, I'm so proud of Sour. So many of those songs. Like, I think, like, All-American Bitch is, like, my favorite song I've ever written. And I think, like, Bad Idea. I remember, like, thinking Bad Idea, right, at the time. I was like, oh, that's too weird. Like, and I'm like, I love that song so much now. Yeah, it's just, just having a little space totally changes your perspective on it. Yeah, I'm really proud of both of those records. Even, even stuff where I'm like, oh, God, that song could have, like, I could have lived without that song. It just, you know, I don't, I don't think I'll ever regret, like, writing honestly about where I am in my life. And I'll always have, like, compassion and love for. Yeah, I was going to say, so you hear them both as art, but also as documents of, like, the intensity of the experiences. For sure, for sure. This album feels very settled to me. Like, obviously, you're going through an emotional arc, but you have clarity about that emotional arc. It's not, you're not zigzagging. You're kind of like, I think I, I think I see what's happening here. Even if what I'm seeing is bad enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even if it was tough. But it's like, I see what's going on here. And does that track with how you live off the, off the album, like, is that when you're talking to your friends, do you feel, like, much more lucid as a, an assessor of the world? Yeah. Like, tell me about that. God, for sure. But I just think that that's growing up. It's like, it's an interesting thing to grow. To grow up with the people who listen to my music. Like, I feel like we're kind of around the same age, like, going through the same things and just, like, the lucidity that I see things with. But it's not unique to me. Like, none of it is. So, like, I just, I think you just collect so many experiences that you kind of know yourself more and know the world more. And I don't know. Every album, though, I feel like I'm learning about myself, but I'm also, like, learning how to write songs every album. I don't think I'll ever feel like, okay, I know how to do this. Like, perfect. I got this. I, like, I know exactly what I want. It's to be, like, every time I sit down to write a song, I feel like I'm learning it for the first time. And I think that that's what keeps it, like, exciting and fun as, like, a creative person is, like, there's never, I have, like, tips and tricks and I, like, know all the pop song writing tricks that you're supposed to do and all that stuff. But I just really feel like I'm, like, endlessly learning. And that's what I'm so grateful that I get to do this job and just, like, keep being curious about stuff. One thing that I really enjoyed about this album, there are two songs that are on opposite ends of the album that both feel real. They're really unadorned. So it's like you're approaching both this part on Honey Bee and then I think it's, is it less on this one? Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, okay, so there's a aesthetic choice here that's similar but different sentiments. And I wonder how you think about the pairing of the sentiment of the emotion of the lyric with the production choices. And how do you know when it's time to deliver the restrain thing and when it's time to be, like, we're going straight. We're going straight to the new wave or we're going straight to the pop-up. Dan and I love to, like, throw shit at the wall. And I think also this record, the feeling of, like, being, like, intoxicated with love for someone, it feels very rich and, like, orchestral and, like, Honey Bee, there's so much in there. There's, like, a choir and there's a, you know, string section and there's this, like, beautiful, like, piano in it. And there's just so much. It's, like, feels really rich. And because that's how it felt at the time. You know what I mean? That's how it felt to be in love. I think a song like Less was added, obviously, later. In the album-making process. And I think, yeah, it was us trying to practice a little bit of restraint. We were also trying to practice a little bit of restraint with the last song. And we were, like, oh, it just needs a big bridge. I can't do it. I can't do it. And that one is produced by a lot of production. Yeah. There's no restraint. We talked about the new wave influence here. And I wonder, on these songs, on the piano ballads, essentially, what were your sonic touchstones for those versus the more upbeat songs? Yeah. I was talking to—do you guys know Wise Blood? Yeah, of course. She's so great. And she sang on SNL with me. Yeah, we saw. Because I'm just such a huge fan. Beautiful harmonies. Beautiful. She has one of the greatest voices. She's angelic, beautiful, wonderful person. But I was talking to her about it. And she just turned in a new record. She's like, yeah, it's so funny. I, like, tried so much different stuff and tried to, like, explore so much. And you just, like, always go back to, like, what you're good at at the end of the day sometimes, too. Which I think that there was just a part of me that was like, I just want to write a singer-songwriter song that's, like, classic. And that's, like, sort of my sensibilities sometimes. And I love exploring and doing other stuff. But, like, that's sort of—like, 12-year-old Olivia fell in love with songwriting for songs like that. And so I really liked that one. I think that was maybe the first song on the album, Honey Bee. And it was, like, one of those ideas just, like, at home. And I, like, wrote the whole thing on piano and just thought, like, wow. Like, I feel like I really expressed something that was so hard to describe. And in the context of the album, I find it to be actually— it's actually the saddest song on the album. I find it to actually be devastating, which is really— it's You Seem Pretty Sad for a Girl So in Love, like, to a T. It's this, like—it's this love song that's filled with so much hope, but also, like, a sort of knowing that it's not— You know, you're right. Exactly. It's like, it's the—there's the music playing in the background very softly. You're like, oh, fuck. Exactly. The crash is on the other side. But, yeah. It takes me back to even pre-Driver's License, your first big song for High School Musical the Musical, the series. All I Want. And that's one of these very yearning, extreme piano ballads. Who—songs like that were you playing on the piano when you were 12 and 13 and a kid? Like, when you wanted to just belt and yearn and feel? Fiona Apple was always my, like, yearner piano queen. I got really into Tori Amos while I was making Guts because I felt like she was, a piano yearner, but it also felt like edgy and rock yeah i love her on the piano um i was really into the dresden dolls too like that was punk piano there's something that i'll always love about just like a plain old piano song like that i just feel like is from the heart singer songwriter type of vibe uh yeah what is your guys favorite song on the record can i be the narcissist how do you say me plus you equals how do you how would you say it um i don't know i haven't been talking about it a lot yeah what's me plus you call me pussy i think me plus you or is it you plus me it's you plus me you plus me i don't even know all right all right so you plus me we'll call it you plus me equals equals greater than three heart something i don't know we're gonna workshop this the lyric is you plus me you plus me forever yeah i think it's a masterpiece i really do i i wrote that in my notes i'm not just saying it to you it's very cranberries to me a little sixpence on the richer it's like that that jangly 90s you know i just i think it has it both has that line in the bridge that i mentioned earlier that i love that i think is the greatest away message on this album you're a little too young for a.i.m away messages but that's where you put the quotes that well when you're really the drake quotes if there were drake quotes that's the time that to me and i just think it has a great build and energy yeah that's far and away my favorite on there was that you weren't expecting that that's never been anyone's favorite you're the first person who said that to me i'm really excited about that what's your well i mean i'll tell you mine but what's yours um she said honeybee i love honeybee i also love the cure okay but i'm sorry respond to joe's outlier choice we almost cut that one from the album come on are you actually serious it was one of the first we made and you you know how you you just always like the song that you made yeah sure yeah you just got sick of us yeah i know carve our names into the car seat leather as the owner of a very nice car do you know how stressful i found that line and i was like look maybe in my 20s i've seen someone if you love them that much in my 50s do not touch the car seat leather do not do that yeah i know i'm happy oh that's wild that you were thinking of even cutting that's insane yeah that's so not to me okay so begged yeah um you plus me honeybee and drop dead okay um and begged wow so funny you guys give opposite answers than everyone else in my camp that's really interesting what are we hearing behind the scenes what are the what are the hits what are the fan favorites everyone loves the cure the most i mean the cure is obviously it's a great song it's a centerpiece but but when i was listening to it in the context of the album i was like this makes the most sense in the context of the entire album because it really is connective thread it is connected from a to b and but in these micro moments and also i love like i love a wailing ass like hell yeah i love you know but like even the turn of phrase i mean you know i wrote down a bunch of different lyrics even the turn of phrase on begged nothing's quite enough when i know that to get it i begged and just the sophistication of that sentiment the understanding that just because you may have gotten something it doesn't mean that it was the thing that you thought you were chasing and the fact that you actually might be response like you might have invented the salute like you might have invented it out of thin air and then it wasn't actually real because you were sort of forcing it yeah no like incredibly sophisticated thought process yeah i i think that's the difference also between like an album like sour and this album like when you're in a relationship that's deeper and you're older and it's more nuanced it's less like fuck you doing this to me like it's like oh i think that song was like oh yeah this happened because i set this up and like you fell short but i didn't really you never promised that you were going to do that and like it's like a it's definitely more nuanced take than i feel like i had the emotional capacity to write about before sure um and so yeah that song is that song is really special to me that it's very yeah i found it to be very savvy like just like very emotionally savvy and i think you know like obviously as people who cover music extensively and just like i feel like you know you feel like you get to a point where you're like i've heard every metaphor i've heard every detail and then someone has a turn of phrase and you're like oh i didn't hear that one so this was that was a great moment for me i'm interested in your development as a lyricist and how has your lyric writing changed between albums two and three versus between albums one and two i think honestly the the challenge for me was in writing a love song like i think that was a daunting task for me someone who was very known for writing breakup songs and being angry and sad and people love that like yes and there obviously is that weird like singer's curse thing where you're like do people only like me when i'm sad you know what i mean and so that was i think that was the the challenge is trying to write something about being happy and also making it interesting also i think it was just like a thing that i wanted to prove to myself that i didn't have to be miserable to write a song that i liked um did you used to think that happy songs were like less valid than sad songs i mean when i was a teenager for sure like when you're a teenager that's the shit that you listen to because you're so depressed you know what i mean but um i i love i mean as i get older i think like writing a beautiful love song some of them my favorite love songs are fucking devastating like like love song by the cure is like this like however far away i was always love you however long i say kill me that's so sad and so beautiful yeah it was just me trying to figure out how to write a song that was so sad and so beautiful yeah it was just me trying to figure out how to write a song that was so sad and so beautiful trying to write lyrics in a more mature way about love that weren't so black and white you know like you can all of these things can exist at once you can be in love and also feel insecure and you can be in love and also feel depressed and you can you know break up with someone and still like love that like you know what i mean like there's just all of these things can be true at once and i think obviously as a teenager you don't have the emotional like capacity to really internalize that and so obviously it wasn't reflected in the albums but um so i think that that was the challenge do you look forward to the day when you can look back at this album and this time in your life and say oh 24 year olds also maybe don't know that much about themselves or the world like are you is that is that like is that exciting to you that eventually even like this where you do i'm gonna be like i'm so stupid and naive yeah i mean like it's that do you think do you think i'm not trying to call you out i'm just like the way you look at your teenage years now like you will whether it's in your 30s or 40s or later you're going to be like i'm so stupid and naive but later you'll probably look at your 20s similarly like is that something you look forward to that self-knowledge hell yeah i'm so excited about it it's a really interesting thing to have so much of your emotional whatever like like uh chronicles it's insane i can't even imagine all i have is blogs and tweets and articles but not to the level of detail that you do and the feelings along the way of yours have meant so much to other people that they will live on long beyond when you stop feeling them yeah yeah it's really beautiful i it's a very unique job you have very unique thing i'm i'm very very lucky i i still to this day don't always understand how i like got so lucky like and that sounds like i'm like i i think i'm not like trying to demean myself i think i'm talented and i work hard but like going to a show and like looking out into the audience and seeing all of these like girls who are like nine years old like crying to these songs and it so deeply touches them and it's so clearly like affecting their life in a way that i could have never ever imagined it's just such a it's a really really wild thing that i feel like really privileged to be able to do i don't really know how it i i i can't i'm not like masterminding it it just is like this beautiful human connection and i just feel so lucky that i get it in such a hope that i can like keep being a positive thing in girls lives like that it's something that i think about speaking of that audience and the platform that you have i think one thing that separates your generation of pop star even from the one that immediately precedes it is like your comfort being explicitly political and using that stage to speak to young impressionable fans who care about what you say you know you memorably spoke out uh when roe v wade was overturned you've since come out against ice you've spoken about gaza have you received any pushback behind the scenes to anybody telling you that that's a risk to your business to use that stage and the audience you have to espouse what are in this day and age sometimes controversial views honestly i feel like i'm surrounded with people who are very like-minded and i really appreciate that no one has ever been like don't do that no and i always say like i am i really try to stay educated on things like i i make a conscious effort to try my very best because i think that's important for everyone but i don't know everything i don't i couldn't list a bunch of statistics about things i'm not like a geopolitical scientist like but i'm an artist and like what i do for my job is like this is how i feel and i present it to people and like i think it would just be disingenuous to be like i don't feel heartbroken about what's going on in gaza you know what i mean like that's just like as an artist i feel like that's just what you do and um that's my job uh but i don't know i also feel really weird taking like credit being like yeah i'm so like i always feel like i could be doing more and saying more and stuff like that so it's a it's you know Was it something like that sort of purity of purpose and desire to speak your truth in a variety of ways, whether it's emotional or social, political? Is that something that comes from your household? Is it something that comes from, you know, did something, were you around a bunch of people in your teenage years who really encouraged that in you? Like where, if you sort of trace it back to its origin, where do you think that it came from? Because you've been doing it. This isn't something you arrived at this year. This is something you've been doing for basically the entire time that you've been very famous. And usually that's exactly the stretch of time that people don't do it. So what do you think was happening to you in the years prior to that that gave you the sort of sense of self to be able to do that? Yeah, that's a really interesting question. Honestly, it's going to make me emotional, but my parents are awesome. And my parents never made me feel like stupid for saying something or never made me feel like I was being too much or too emotional or oversharing. And I think I grew up in a household where like me being outspoken. And performing and saying what I believe in and like being ambitious was like just so supported. And I think my parents, I have the most wonderful parents in the world. I was a child actor, which is really crazy because my parents are like the least stage parenty parents you've ever met in your whole life. But it just like bred, I think, a sense of like ambition in me and like wanting to express myself and like do things and hopefully be a positive like influence on something or someone. I don't know. But I don't know. I think I owe that to them. They really always made me feel like I could do anything or say what was on my mind without, you know, feeling ashamed. And so there is in your mind like a moral component to being an artist. If you're going to be a person who has a voice, who has sway, who has influence, you think that some degree of responsibility kind of comes with that. Yeah, I think it's just the job. I don't even know if I would say like it's your responsibility to like step up. But I just think it's like it's the same way that I talk about how I'm sad about a breakup on a song. It's like the same. It's the same thing. It's the same emotion. It's just like maybe expressed in a different medium. Most recently, there was some Internet detective work, as there always is, around you. People claiming that you liked a post about protesting the Met Gala. Enjoy your damn gala. Did you not attend for moral and political reasons or is that an overread? Oh, gosh. I just I'm not really a fashion girl. Oh, really? I'm not a fashion girl. Can I just say, look, also can I just say candidly, many people who attend the Met Gala are not fashion people. And you know who you are. And I know who you are. Go on. Gosh, how do I choose my words wisely? I just, it, I think, I think I've, this is my third album. I think that I, I feel, I don't feel like I need to do things that don't. Don't like bring me joy or inspire me or feel me or feel aligned with my like values or something like that. Like I, I, it's just, it's not like as fun or exciting anymore. Like I was fun or exciting. It's like talking to you guys or making a song that I really love or like make a music video that I think is cool. You can say no. You're at the point in your career where you can say no to things. You can be a little more discerning. And I think that that's cool. And I, I, um. And not a setback. Like it's because I know in the, in the first waves of fame, you're just like, I want to say yes to everything. You may never come again. Yeah. Like literally like a new, there are doors behind the doors. I didn't even know were doors that I could open. But now that you've seen the doors, there's just, there's don't like plenty of doors. Yeah. I mean, and it's, it's sometimes it's fun and sometimes it's exciting, but sometimes I just, I don't know. I feel like what's really fun and cool is like making stuff that I like and hanging out with my friends who really know me. I don't know. It's just not, it's not a company I suppose. Speaking of internet detective work, there's a lot of sort of public speculation about your relationship with Taylor. Ongoing speculation. That the Disney alum and the heiress tour performer are not in friendly terms. Taylor was retroactively credited on one of Olivia's biggest hits, Deja Vu, due to an apparent interpolation of Taylor's song, Cruel Summer. You're at a Paul McCartney concert in Los Angeles and you guys are walking out at the same time. And then there's people on the internet being like, are they facing each other? Are they facing one? I wonder how stuff like that strikes you given that I imagine, you know, how you feel and you know, the state of play. How do you view that? How do you view that layer of scrutiny? Yeah. I don't know. I don't really like read too far into it. I think it like comes to the territory and it's par for the course. And I think if I dove into every internet detective sleuth that like got things right or wrong about my life or any of my relationships, I think I'd just go crazy. Like there's just not enough time in the day. Yeah. I think maybe it started at such a high level for you around driver's license that anything after that. For sure. You were like, you went through it. You went through it. You went through people trying to figure out who is this song about and why? And was that nice to get that out of the way early on? Maybe it wasn't nice to go through. I do think so. I think it made me feel detached from it. I had to detach from it in order to like literally like be okay. It was just such a crazy experience for like everyone involved. And I, yeah, I think I just had to learn to detach. And I think that that's something that I hopefully I'm good at these days. Still trying to like detach from. People who like don't know every little detail of my life. I think, I think you just have to. Otherwise you just go kind of crazy. I also think there can be value in someone like you setting the record straight or saying what you really feel about something when people are trying to guess how you feel. You know, one of the other things you've been a lightning rod over, you know, bringing back a conversation from 20, 25 more years ago is like the idea of the baby doll dress and what it means to Riot Grrrl. And what it means to Riot Grrrl. And what it means to dress subversively or other people who say, no, no, it's infantilizing or it's played out as a symbol. Like, that's what's making me so upset. Not even for me. Like, I don't care. People could say whatever they want. What does it mean to you? What does that, that choice mean to you? What's really like disturbing is I feel like I actually wear, I have worn outfits that are like maybe revealing on stage. Like I've been on stage in like a sparkly bra and like little shorts and like, which is my right. That's fun. I felt cool and comfortable in that. And like that. That wasn't inappropriate, but me like fully covered up in a dress that people deemed to be like childlike was inappropriate. And I just think it, it just like shows how we just like really normalize pedophilia in, in our culture. And also it's just as this, this like rhetoric that we're fed as girls since we're so little, which is like, don't wear that because then a man is going to sexualize your body and it's your fault. Like, it's so weird. And I, I didn't think that I looked sexy in that at all. I was like, this is so cool. I feel like I look like Kathleen Hampton. Or like Courtney, love all these people who are my heroes. And I felt cool and comfortable in it. And like, I just think if we start dressing in a way that's like, oh, I don't want some fucking freak to think that I like am sexy like a baby or like some crazy thing like that. Like, I just, I just think it's like losing the plot a little bit. You know, I am just very protective of like younger women and girls. And I, I just, I don't ever want them to be big fed that rhetoric, I guess. And also protect their right as they grow up to do whatever it is. Yeah, it's like a weird cult. It's like, yeah, you shouldn't be responsible for some guy sexualizing you in a way that was never your intention. Like, I, yeah. One thing that I was curious about listening to this album, you talked about girls in your audience seeing nine-year-olds, ten-year-olds cry. What do you want people to actually take away from the album? Are you telling them a story about a romantic relationship? Are you telling them a story about emotional development? Are you just making songs you hope people will sing? Are you just singing along to? What's the thing? Like, obviously the finished product is a collection of songs. But there's more. What do you want those girls to listen to on the day it comes out to listen to? What do you want them to feel and think? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I, I, I want them to like kind of be along for the ride in the story. Because this is a story. It's like with a beginning, a middle, and an end. I think like the goal for any piece of work for me would be like to provide some sense of like emotional catharsis. I think. That would be amazing. Yeah. Or some sort of like understanding or, um, I don't know. I just feel like growing up, if I heard a song that spoke to me, I was like, oh yeah, that's how I feel. And it helps me better understand myself and the way I feel around. I don't know. Insert issue here. You know, I, I, I think that that, that's the dream. And I would, I would love it if that was somebody's takeaway. Yeah. Do you feel like your fan, like I assume you have fan interactions that are more one-on-one, not simply like in a, in an arena or in a stadium. What do you hear in those? In those conversations, like the sort of micro moments, like what are you hearing from those girls? Yeah. It's so sweet. I mean, especially like the young girls. Yeah. Yeah. That's sort of what I mean. I love that. And I think like sometimes, I don't know if you live in like, oh, you don't, you want to like lean into your older audience or something like that's so cool that like a eight year old girl finds like my song to be moving. Like that is like the most special thing ever. Like I remember being eight years old and listening to music and it just meant so much to me. And the fact that I could like maybe be a semblance of that for someone is so exciting. And I don't know. I just, I think that like people like young people, especially just so emotional. Like I love hearing stories from like girls who like have never held the boy's hand and they're like traitor is my favorite song. Like my friend at school changed friend groups and it like devastated me. And it's like, that is their whole, like, like turns their whole life on its head. And it's like, so cool to like watch them process all those feelings. And, and also in an environment like a concert where it feels like this communal processing of emotions. I, I, I watched this documentary the other day called like, it's called like Spirits in the Forest. Have you guys watched it? No, no, no. It's about Depeche Mode. Oh, wow. It's about Depeche Mode, but it's not even, it's not a concert film about, it's like, it doesn't have anything really to do with the members of Depeche Mode. It's like these five people who are huge Depeche Mode fans and it follows their life leading up to like the last Depeche Mode concert in like Berlin or something. Oh, wow. Gotta check that out. Yeah, good idea. It's so beautiful. And it's, it's just about like how going to a concert is not even about like the lighting or like what someone's wearing couldn't matter. It's like these people and the stories that they bring to this concert. Like one of the women who the documentary talked about, she like hit her head or something and she woke up and she didn't remember anything about her life, didn't remember where she was, didn't remember her name, didn't remember her husband's name, but she remembered every single Depeche Mode lyric. And when I woke up, I didn't remember anything of my former life except one thing, which is Depeche Mode. Like how incredible is that? Sounds like a Daily Mail story. No, but it's just like. A good one. Yeah, yeah, no. They're all good. That's wild. That's incredible. You guys should watch it. But it's just like stuff like that. It's like, it's just so cool that I get to play a show or do something and all these people bring their own experiences of my songs to this show and we all share it together. Like, like it kind of doesn't like, I feel like a concert is, it's like 75% of what makes a concert great is the audience. Maybe even more. Maybe it's like 80%. It's like, that's the number one musical instrument or like cool thing. Like that does all of the talking for you. Yeah. And you become this bard of girlhood and you talk about the influence of Sofia Coppola on what you've done and you, you work a lot with Petra Collins and that's been a subject and a muse for her as well. And you mentioned these, this peanut gallery idea of like, oh, don't you want to speak to your older audience? You know, you look at what Sofia Coppola has done and she did the Virgin Suicides decades ago and she's still telling that story in Priscilla from a, from a different perspective. Do you feel like that's ever a subject that you will have to let go of and move on from as, as you age and mature, or do you think it could remain a forever theme for you? I mean, I don't know. I guess I don't like come into my album being like, this is girlhood. Like, I think I just try to like, be like, this is where I'm at right now. And I think that just maybe is girlhood. Cause I feel like a girl, but I'm 23. So I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I guess I'm a woman now, but you know, I don't know. I just think, I just think there's something beautiful about like this shared experience that we all have. And even like something like Driver's License was a really special experience for me on so many levels, but that song meant so much to me because it was about my experience, but also it just like united other people in their own experience of like a first heartbreak or something like that. I guess you didn't mean what you wrote in that song about me. I think whatever, whatever. I think it's like, if it's, if it's girlhood, if it's something else, like if whatever they attach, whatever meaning they attached to the song, I would be happy with. There's one line that jumped out at me on this album. Cause I, I think on earlier songs and earlier albums, something that comes up here and there is like you encounter someone, you're encountering a guy and he's delivering you a line or a bit. And then you have this awakening that like, he's delivered the line or the bit previously, right? And then that's that moment of like, wait a minute. That's practice. That's rehearsed. But then there's a line on this album where you say all my ex-boyfriends have heard these lines. You call yourself out. Right. But I was like, but, but to pick up on Joe's question about sort of girlhood as a topic and maturity and how songwriting evolves, I, I heard that line and I was like, oh, like this feels like just the tiniest suggestion of leaving some of that other energy behind and saying like, I do it too. And that, am I right to pick up on that as like a theme in that song and also maybe broadly speaking on this album? Yeah. It's like what we were saying before. I think like the album hopefully is my most nuanced approach at a relationship and like it's, you know, a real relationship where two people like know each other and love each other deeply. Isn't like, well, you were mean to me that one time. There's just so much ebb and flow. You're just like learning about yourself and like your shortcomings and like the ways in which you are. I have, I have, I have, I have. I've failed or have like, you know, or sabotaging certain aspects of the relationship. Like I, I think hopefully that there are moments in the record where I kind of acknowledge my own, um, part and maybe some like negative parts of the relationship. I don't know. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. No one's, no one's innocent. Yeah. Talking about holding up that mirror. No one's innocent. No one's innocent. Love holding up that mirror to yourself. Yeah. Being comfortable playing something like a villain or calling yourself out for it. Uh, also very Sex and the City. Uh, it, it got in prepping for this. It got us. We did it. Did you guys watch Sex and the City? Oh, no. I mean, I've watched it a hundred times. Countless, countless amount of times, but it did cause us in a meeting to go around and do who, who, who we were. Okay. Wait. Tell me who you guys are. Well, you want to guess? I'm a little scared. Like one of the girls. Yes. Okay. We kept this to the core. We need to do men later. I've heard people be like, I'm Magda. I'm like, girl, get out of here. Like pick one of those. But we did a, we did a, uh, a main and a rise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think you are. I think you're a Charlotte Maine. Wow. And the Carrie Rising. You think I'm a little uptight? Wow. Damn son. That's interesting. John, I think accurately, this is actually a twist, said that I'm, that I'm a Miranda with a, with a, with a dash of. Samantha. With a dash of Samantha. Okay. And John is actually. Way to let her guess. Let her guess. Let her guess. It's okay. You can get it wrong. It's totally fine. You don't know. Yeah. like that. You can't call the wrong answer. I know. I know. Can't believe you called me a Charlotte. Sick. Sick. I love it. I love to see it. Oh my God. I know. You're really on the spot. This is the hardest part of the conversation. No pressure. No pressure. I want to say Carrie was a dash of Samantha. Very close. Okay. I'm actually, I feel like I'm a Carrie with Charlotte. Okay. Which is, is that not what you identify as? Yeah. No, I think I'm a Charlotte with, with Carrie. With Carrie. Charlotte first. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe it's, maybe it's a little bummed out, you know, but they arrived at it for me. I mean, John's felt good. Obviously a Carrie. Like, John is obviously a Carrie. Like. It's derogatory. No, no. With all the. It depends. It depends on what episode. With all the complications that entails. Unbelievable. With all the complications. Yes. Okay. Yes. Fine. Should we hit a couple of questions in our lightning round? Whatever, man. Whatever, man. I love this. That's the best part. It's groundbreaking journalism. I love it. We're building lore. Totally. We're building lore. Totally. I have a custom Sex and the City shirt that I meant to wear today that I did not. It's a one of one made for me by a very dear friend and I'm very sad I forgot to wear it today. I love that. I love that stuff. I have a few like, like, you know how like cast and crew gets like a, like a thing at the wrap. I have a few Sex and the City wrap stuff. I don't know how I got it. Like from eBay? Oh, very cool. Like gift. Yeah. From eBay. Maybe it's fake. I don't know. I'm sure it's not fake. I still wear it with pride. All right. We have 52 cards in the PopCast deck. Oh, wow. Each one corresponds to a pre-written question. Okay. Some are deep. Some are shallow. And we'll see where the fate takes you. All right. This is so fun. Thanks for having me, you guys. No. This is a. We're having fun. A dream. What do you got? Okay. I got a two of diamonds. Two of diamonds. Or two of sparkles, as I say. Nice. Okay. Okay. Two of sparkles? Yeah. Okay. Again, we continue to learn that people's relationship to playing cards is beyond. It's complicated. I know. You could have unusual relationships to playing cards. You guys. No. I have the most unusual. I love playing cards so much. What? I travel with four playing cards on me at all times because I have a game. Four decks? Yeah. Four decks. What do you play? My manager's got me a Bottega carrying case for my cards. Just for your cards? It's so bougie because I don't go anywhere without my cards. We got to get you a PopCast deck. Yeah. We're going to get you a Pop. I would love that. We're going to mail you a PopCast deck. Wait. What games do you play? It's like, I think golf, called Golf in Other Places, and then this game called Nerds I really like. Wow. It's like multiple player solitaire. You're like deep cutting card games. Deep cut. Yeah. It's no go fish for me. Wow. No war. I also love solitaire. I'm trying to be on my phone less, and so if I'm having that itch, I'll just play solitaire. Wow. Wow. Can I just briefly identify myself as an older person? Okay. Is the name of the game Egyptian Rats Crew mean anything to anybody? Yes. Oh, yeah. I've heard of that. It's a summer camp Egyptian Rats Crew champion. Wow. We're going to play it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. After this. I was killing it. Except for the popcorn. I was annihilating the older kids. It was a great time in my life. One of my early highlights. It was a great moment. All right. Two of sparkles. Two of sparkles. Two of sparkles. I might just refer to them as sparkles from now on. Okay. This is a tough one. Some of these are light. Some of these are hard. This is a tough one, I would say. What is the most difficult thing that's happened to you in your personal life that your career prevented you from dealing with properly? Oh, my gosh. That's the deepest question of the whole thing. Can we do this? We've asked. We've asked. Wow. A couple people have pulled this. It's been quite revealing. I've led a very charmed life. I haven't had anything really awful happen. I think this is in no way woe is me, but I think I feel really sad that I didn't really have a childhood. Well, that's, I mean- Basically huge and total. You were at Disney. You were at Disney. It's fine. I'm totally fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. I'm totally okay. But yeah, I was- Yeah. That answer is like- That's the answer. That's the answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little sad. Is it a persistent kind of like low grade, low hum that's something you think about a lot yeah but not maybe at intense spikes but it's kind of always like hovering yeah it it reveals itself in certain certain ways over time yeah and i relationships it's just a push and pull like i live one of the most amazing life when i get to travel the world and like have all these incredible experiences and talk to cool guys like you but like i yeah i didn't ever i wasn't in high school i didn't have a good group of friends in high school i was just gonna say you know like was it tough to form friendships super hard and it is even hard i think for me i have a wonderful group of friends now that i'm really like lucky and grateful for but i do feel like i'm so ahead in certain areas of my life and then maybe like in some like social areas i'm like a little behind yeah sure um just because i i was i'm a homeschooled only child like it was very lonely like upbringing and uh i think that's why i like wrote so many songs too is it made me feel less alone yeah and um yeah it made me feel understood and uh yeah it's all good it's all good no no but it's also it's like also if it's not even if it's not all good it's great that you have the perspective you know it's not it's not something you're gonna wake up 10 years from and be like damn i never thought about that you're yeah i think that actually leads me back to something i feel on this album which is like you're clear-eyed about not being clear-eyed yeah sometimes and that's a that's a cool place to be yeah clear-eyed i like that next time okay okay nine of clovers it again amazing i'm i'm i i learned something every week on the show clovers and sparkles um what sparks your jealousy oh my god you're pulling the hard ones i know i mean listen to the album you'll see i don't know i mean like romantic jealousy is definitely a thing that i've done a lot of times i've talked about in like all three albums yeah um it definitely gets like less all-encompassing though as i get older what about non-romantic jealousy yeah like just a really nice bag or a pair of shoes or just like interpersonal jealousy i mean i get jealous of people's songs all the time like not in a way where i'm like oh i don't like you but like that's but that's also a really great feeling to like hear someone's song be like god i wish i wrote that for some people jealousy is very animating it's a really really good motivator really a great motivator it's like an indicator that like this is what i want this is what deep down i desire you know that's real spilled yeah that's real spilled all right pulling on the card maybe i'll get a less intense one you're really oh my god it's hard hitters all right okay ace of clovers yeah this is easier uh what are you good at besides what you do for a living oh that's a good question it's hard cards apparently cars yes that's you're the first person to say they have four decks at all times yeah what else secret talent i'm really good at cards i'm really good at yoga okay i really got into it last tour because i was really stressed and now i'm really good and i can like do tricks and stuff you're like you sky tang adrian like who's your yeah i do love yoga with adrian um no i i can do the thing where you like hold yourself on the hands and and uh your legs are jutting out that's great dancing i don't know i've seen your videos i can do i don't know if i can do that quite yet a girl can dream a girl can dream um yeah i love that oh my god you know i think i'm a good friend damn i think i'm a good friend you really just rewrote the question in real time it's unbelievable it's like in a job interview when they're like what's your greatest weakness you're like i work too hard i know have you ever no i've never had like a regular job which is sad you've had auditions yeah i just had auditions i i think i'm good at it good friend wild incredible answer i couldn't even anticipate that really good uh all right two more cards and then we'll get the deranged snack come on i'm so excited uh seven of spades seven of spades it's a good one you read your own dms do i read my own dms yeah yes i do yeah yeah i do um you go into the extra mailboxes you go in the second and the third one see what what the action is like i'll go into like the verified but you do you read it you don't the team's not it's not outsourced to the team you have the password you read your dms yeah you're a digital native yeah yeah i was born in 2003 like i know what's up yeah do you find it to be overwhelming that people have that direct especially you know so much going on people have direct access to you like do you wish to do you like ever brick your phone do you ever like put it under the couch and be like not for two hours yeah i delete instagram and tick tock off of my phone all the time i'm like never on twitter or like reddit or any of that stuff that's scary sure but um i just delete it all the time but it's hard it really is tough the social media addiction it really is real and it like fragments my days and fragments my attention span and like it's it's really not good yeah only thing i'm addicted to pull one more card yay okay finale uh okay 10 of clovers all right this is that a poker hand is that like not quite right okay okay this is a good one this is also it's in between uh serious and and light when's the last time something did not go your way career-wise and how did you cope with it oh yeah i don't like talking about when things don't go well i like just glossing over anything that no one notices you can talk about the cope first you know i've made so many mistakes or things that i've made that i've made a lot of mistakes and i've made a lot of mistakes or things i look back and i'm like oh god that was so not me or like whatever but i really do think and i'm not even like having a cop-out answer i i think that when you look back at any artist's career i think that the cream really rises at the top you know what i mean like you don't all of my favorite artists have put out bad songs or like done things or that are like not great or whatever saying a bad note or whatever i think i think pound for pound i'm like proud of my work and so i think at the end of the day that's that's hopefully what people will remember it's funny it's funny you said it because sometimes i feel like when i get flack for being a critic and they're like how could you say a negative thing about blank and i i say to them i'm like who's your favorite artist and they'll say whoever it is and i'm like every song they've ever made is perfect no true every song you liked as a 10 year old you still love no right you have all these like touch points like we're all critics everybody views the world that way and so yeah i think that's the exact right way to think about yeah this kind of thing it's like and i think like my mistakes of the past have like led me to where i am now and like nothing teaches you who you are better than doing something that's like oh that felt really bad you know what i mean like that really informs everything they do after that and so i'm like i'm happy to have have made mistakes and like done things that are maybe crammed or made a song that wasn't that good like it happens and it's all it's all part of a cool life and you're less self-conscious about that stuff now then you might have been you know sour era yeah i think also i mean my last two records i was like i made them when i was like 17 and 19 so i'm like no it's like i did the best with what i could do and i'm like i'm like i'm like i'm like what i could at the time and like with the people that i had around me at the time and and so yeah i i don't know i i used to beat myself up over stuff a lot they used to be really really harsh and like something i think shifted in me a little bit where i'm like how awesome that i get to make music and like feel connected to other people and make music videos that i think are cool and like talk about things that are important to me like that's awesome like i think coming at that from a place of joy is just the only way you can really do it because it's like yeah it's awesome music is awesome it's a genuine gift that animates our lives but on that note like one thing i've always appreciated about you is that you've been so forthcoming about your influences and people who are your heroes and what what you're trying to live up to and not all artists are like that some people are very stingy with giving credit or citing influence and i think you've remained open-hearted about that and i think that's something that i've always appreciated about that but it's come back to bite you a couple times in terms of songwriting credits or album covers or people trying to call you out for borrowing or whatever it is borrowing a little too much how have you pushed through that those what i assume were pretty hard times in your creative vision being called into question and how do you remain open with what it is that inspires you when when stuff like that has happened yeah i think it's a really hard time like just personally but um i don't know i i i'm a fangirl i love music and like nobody can like take that away that's so cheesy but like i love music and i feel so lucky that i get to do what i do and i like love so many songs and um you know i've grown up being surrounded with awesome music and awesome bands and i've grown up being surrounded with awesome bands and i've grown up being surrounded bands and like i i truly just do feel so lucky and i i love writing songs and like that's just i'll i would be writing songs if nobody listened and everyone hated it and everyone thought i was bad i would still be writing songs because it's what i like love to do but i like that you call yourself a fangirl because i feel like some artists especially at your level are ashamed to identify themselves that way you gotta be a fan what's it's so boring not be a fan of music there's so much good music to be a fan of yeah and it's like but you weave it into your songwriting probably just like the act of being enthusiastic about music is often in your songs a proxy for the act of being enthusiastic about a person yeah i mean i think to joe's point like i i do think people wonder those things that were tough for you early in your career did that leave a frost between you and other songwriters is there a frost between you and taylor like is that something that hovers over your mind is it something that you think is a construction of the people who are doing internet detective work how do you view that now that you're a few years removed from the initial the initial kind of like ruptures um i don't know i think i tried to not let it like get to me or upset me i i think i just try to keep it trucking i think there's no it was so long ago i think there's no use in like harping on it um and um yeah i i i just try to make songs that i love and try to be kind and good to other people and supportive of other people and i've always like tried to be like that and at the end of the day i think that's that's all you can do and being supportive is like again i was looking at the opening act list for your tour and i was just like this is like a very wide range of styles of artists but also it's like you're identifying people you want to take on your wing a little bit maybe yeah sort of safe to say yeah i mean i'm just like huge fans of all the people that are opening for me i'd like and and friends too and um so yeah i don't i don't know i mean i i could sit here and think about it but i don't be like yeah give them advice and blah blah but i i'm i feel like we're all just flying by the seat of our pants and all just like taking what comes when it comes and um yeah yeah i don't know people always would tell ask me that it's like are you giving chapel advice i'm like blah blah and i'm like no like she's giving me advice like it's like we're all just like figuring it out as it comes to the fangirl thing it's cool that you've done that backwards and forwards you've taken the breeders out on the road you know you've you've put your you've put on your heroes and given them uh an entryway to a new audience and you've done it with up-and-coming acts so i feel like that's that's been an important yeah i mean it's not calculated like oh god they're gonna look cool or something like that i just like love all those bands and love all those artists and i'm like so stoked that i get to be around them and hear them play the breeders thing definitely felt radical i remember just when that announcement came out i was just like why don't more people this is like such an obvious idea yeah in terms of like show your lineage yeah exactly like you're presenting also especially with you with such a like a young and open-eared fan base like what you're saying to them is like hey if you like me there's actually a whole yeah there's a whole universe behind me for sure that's a lot of people don't do that because i think people are anxious i truly think people are anxious that like that's what i was getting at about hiding their influence yeah they're gonna show you many other something to a fan and they're gonna be like oh actually i like it's i like that right yeah and that's why you know that people have very young artists opening for them i mean there's a bunch of business reasons of course as well but like the idea that you as an established part uh established performer like what i would actually like to show you is something that was meaningful to me and that actually makes the whole show kind of an olivia show because you're like this is olivia this is what made me this is what made me and then you get to listen to that and then you get to listen to me and you get to actually draw the lines and i think that's more people should do that and i think that's what i would actually like to show you and i think that's genuinely a smart and underutilized move thanks no for real snack time this is i i are we all eating this oh yeah we have to we are all eating this every episode of popcast ends with a snack olivia rodrigo walked over to our snack table and picked these hers long hots uh sharp provolone this is a philly classic got from wawa last weekend and then this leftover dip that i brought to our super bowl hey i'm sorry wait it's expired this is shelf stable should it be in the fridge should it be okay i was like it was salt no no it came from the shelf it came okay can you just look into it before you subject our guests to eating this i know i just like i have to like take a stand i have to take a stand it's expired can you smell it like um it's expired we don't have to use it actually it's expired oh shit i'm sure it's fine i don't think this really goes bad i don't believe in expiration dates but i will not make you eat i can't say i've ever had like dip on the shelf before oh see i love a french onion dip in a can on the shelf no refrigeration that's like one of the greatest you would think so they figured it out look i don't ask questions i'm not gonna make you eat this this is the last three ranch jalapeno flavored dip it smells it smells like it should in my opinion yeah it smells like taco bell smells like taco bell oh my god it doesn't smell bad but i'm not gonna make you i'm not gonna make you eat it i'm not gonna make either of you eat it i might try it try it and if i end up in the hospital you guys will be really like this is this should we should have you're gonna have hives tomorrow we didn't think that anyone would ever pick it it was mostly there as a distraction but you're a sicko yeah this is absolutely nuts that out of everything on the i've got korean snacks japanese snacks british snacks and you this is the flavor crunch off champion flavor long hots and sharp provolone wow shout out chris ryan yeah philly king shout out zach baron philly king carrie batten carrie batten nick sylvester we got a lot we got a lot of philly in our lives yeah yeah joelle and b really excited you did your best thank you for what you did to the celtics mike schmidt oh that's that's a great smell that is a great smell that's unlike anything i've ever tasted to be honest it almost tastes like a peanut little peanut shell oh wow oh it's hard it's hard interesting a lot of a lot of depth of flavor and the spice comes all the way at the end this would be really good with a sub sandwich though i understand wow wow cheesesteak and some of these long hots and sharp provolone flavor cheesesteak spring crunch them up sprinkle them in the cheesesteak okay i love these i'm still understanding but this is a cheese and hot pepper flavor chip is straight out of my brain gotta make it happen you want some more oh yeah i do yeah go in i do really good too spicy for you john no it's actually quite right are you anti-spice yeah i just have a very tender stomach regrettably um it's hitting in just the right way like it's just the right amount of like pepper or whatever it is right at the back it's fine guys it's not i've had such a good time with you oh my god i'll miss you i'm gonna visit you in the hospital i'll miss you i'm gonna try this dip i'm gonna try this next episode of popcast is bedside at the hospital is it good you're you're wild it's fresh you're actually wild it's fresh that has been here for four months the entirety of popcast that's sat there i'm gonna live do you have anything that you want to say to joe before he goes parting words uh let's rank these chips what do you got out of 10 i'm coming back for more does that say anything i feel like you're mixed in the in the facial reaction but i'm just so curious i can't decide if i like it or not i think that's why i keep coming back it's moving in a lot of directions yeah i can't really place it it's like almost like salad dressing tasting it's spicy right but it's in sort of like in sequence yeah you're like it's kind of like mealy and then it's like oh it's unctuous and then you're like oh it's sharp and then you kind of love a hers in general though i feel like the hers ridges are really strong yeah i've shouted out i think my one of my favorite chips all time are better than ruffle hers ketchup oh yeah ketchup flavor is extremely good very hard to find but this is i'm i don't know what yeah you go you go first i give it a hard six wow okay but it's like a six like is it a good six like six trending upwards or six kind of like i'm just trying to be nice no like solid solid just living right there okay yeah six um i'm gonna say an eight wow and i'm gonna say it's like the only thing that's not working for me is and i will say this is a hers chip and maybe even a lace chip problem to me the the kind of when you crunch it the immediate mealiness of the potato you feel it's like it has a thinness to it it's not quite a full crunch yeah i want something where i'm really like not fighting it but there's a heft to it and i feel like the hers like they dissipate extremely quickly once you start chewing them and then all of a sudden you're just left with like a layer of spice and so that's the only part that's not working but it is a it was an adventurous ride it was it really was like zigzag left right up down like it's a cool it's a cool chip i think about food science i think i'm a seven and a half okay i wish it was spicier and i wish i had a sandwich i wish i had a sandwich if it was a sandwich it'd be a nine it's a great side yeah yeah it's not necessarily a solo yeah for sure olivia rodrigo first of all olivia thank you for being here thank you guys for having me happy to have you here thank you so much for coming for months years even john has been saying we'll see you next week this time i mean it every episode of popcast is at ny times.com slash popcast like and subscribe on youtube follow us on tiktok and instagram follow us to the olivia rodrigo tour we'll be back next week you