Hey, it's Michael. Today, we're going to do something a little bit different. We're going to hand our show over to our colleagues at Popcats, the Times Pop Culture Show. It's hosted by Music Critic, John Caramonic, and Culture Reporter Joe Coscarelli. You've heard both of them on the daily before, talking about bad bunnies, super bowl performance, not to mention Joe's interview with Taylor Swift, which was featured in our episode a few weeks ago about the 30 greatest living American songwriters, except, of course, for Billy Joel, who got snubbed. The big news is that Popcats will now be coming out every week, as both an audio and video show, featuring some of the biggest names in music and culture, like ASAP Rocky, Anne Hathaway, Rosalia, and many more. We love what Popcats is doing, and we want to share with you. So take a listen to John and Joe's recent interview with the singer Olivia Rodrigo, about her new album, her songwriting process, and her thoughts about speaking out about politics. You can find Popcats every Thursday at nytime.com/
[email protected]/popcats or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay. Enjoy the show. I actually don't think I've never really done a podcast before, too. I think this is my first real one. I've never sat down and done a two hour conversation thing. We'll get comfy. All right. Get some comfy. Get some cocked lock in. I'm not gonna lie to you. (upbeat music) Welcome to the New York Times pop cast. You are bedroom of Versailles of weekly culture chat. I'm John Caramonica. I'm the critic. I am Joe Cascarelli. I'm the reporter. I'm Olivia Rodrigo. And I'm on pop cast. - Ah! - Finally. - Finally. - Thank God. - Thank you. - Thank you. - God, I love you guys. I love this show. - It's very exciting. - And as we said to you just a moment ago, truly on our 1.0 mood board, having your ear work extremely thrilled that your ear won a special daddy truly. - For me as a vibe, I really appreciate all the work you guys do. And I love all of your opinions. - Certainly, man. - No, I don't. - No. - I love that they are true informed, conscious opinions. - They are thought through. - They're thought through. - They don't agree with all of them. - No, that's the point of those questions. - I'm like, yeah, that's the point of those questions. - Will you get to your friends? - Yeah. - Yeah. - All of them. - Just put it in the garage. - Oh yeah. - Critics are allowed. - Yes, critics are allowed. - You don't need much introduction, but Olivia Rodrigo, the Grammy-winning artist, singer-songwriter, behind four now, number one hits. Most recently, drop dead from her new album, you seem pretty sad for a girl so in love. Out June 12th very soon, starting in 2021, Olivia Burst on the scene with Driver's License, a smash that was the most obvious. - You might have been my first interview for that too. - I remember, I think that happened. We did die of a song. - Wait, so your second semester, senior year, and you just released your first single? - Yeah, first semester, yeah, not even second. I'm like, dying over here. - We knew you were gonna have, I think, a long and special career. Before that, Olivia was known for her work on Disney, first on Bizarre Vark, Shadow to Bizarre Vark. - Shadow to Bizarre Vark. - Let's go make some videos, hey, hey, let's go make some videos, hey. - If you haven't seen it. - Shadow, we're credit to you. - Some day you'll have kids and maybe you'll see it. - It's really making a resurgence though. - Is that true? - People will stop me on the street and they're like, "Oh my God, I'm like, oh yeah, I make music." They're like, "I love Bizarre Vark." - Bizarre Vark, they're like, "That's weird. I'm ashamed, that's weird." - Yeah, that's amazing. - That's amazing. - That's incredible. - That's incredible. - High school musical, the musical, the series. - Also, not title. - Not title. - Not title, too. - It's truly an incredible title. - It would be insane to think I might actually have a shot at playing Gabriella. - Your first two albums, Sour and Guts, mixed pop punk theory with devastating balladry, that's sort of been your magical formula up to this point. You're swerving yet again on this album. We're gonna get into it. We're gonna talk about the new work and so much more. - So you are, it's about to get very intense. You're in, the roll up is rolling. - Yeah. - We're coming up to town release. We had the opportunity to go to S&L a couple weeks ago. - Wait, I feel like you should also tell the viewers about how you corrected the scripts. - Wow. - Okay, were you ready? - No. - You wanna go there? Okay, good. So we will tell that story. So we got to watch you host and perform S&L. I know it's been, it was a dream to do that. I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about that experience and then we'll talk about our uncredited assist factor. - You're right, uncredited. - Yeah, it was so much fun. I have been dreaming about hosting and performing on S&L forever. I'm such a huge fan of everything that they do. I think just artistically it's a real feat that they manage to pull that off every week. And even if sometimes you're like, "Oh, that sketch was on my favorite." It's still just so astounding that they're able to do something that high quality week after week. The work that they put in is insane. Getting to witness that up close was really, really inspiring. - They were blown away. - It's insane. The way that they work, they're such a family. They love each other so much. They get along. They're so devoted to this common mission and cause. I think that's why it works. I think people were kind of iffy about it, the show would fall apart. But everyone is just so steadfast and they're desire to make the best show possible. And it's just really inspiring from an artistic standpoint, whether or not you're into comedy or not. - That was my exact experience because I'm not traditionally a huge S&L fan and I'd been there during the week, like with artists, doing some reporting, et cetera. But I'd never seen a full show. So we were at the dress rehearsal and we were sitting in the balcony and just watching the behind the scenes of how many people it takes, the sets, the movements. You guys did an amazing stunt. - Yeah, I did. - Or it looked like people were falling down the stairs. The way they did that, I think they posted some behind the scenes on S&L. You very gamely. - Literally, literally. - Yeah, I did. - Yeah, literally. - Did your own stunts. - That's insane. - On S&L. - Yep. - But the thing you were alluding to is that the final skit we saw in a dress rehearsal was you and Veronica in the back seat of Anubur and the driver breaks it out into Patois. Yeah, into a Jamaican Patois wrap. (upbeat music) And in the early version of the script, we saw they had you referring to what he was doing as Reggaeton. - Right. - And John and I, like we're sitting, John and I are sitting right next to each other and like immediately we're just like. (laughing) - So, and then at the end, we're sort of like, do we tell someone? - We tell someone like this. - We didn't want to see you get flamed on the internet or like-- - You guys think so. - So we managed to relay the message that it was probably the word they were looking for was either "Dance Hall" or "Germaken Dance Hall" and then when I woke up the next morning, the first thing I got served on Instagram was that skit on social and I was like, oh no, oh no. And then I saw the subtitles and it said-- - Okay, but you like started aggressively singing a Jamaican dance hall song, like really loud? - Hell yeah. - Jamaican dance hall, we were like-- - You guys saved the game. (laughing) - We don't, I wasn't gonna bring it up, but you guys are in that game. - I'm not sure I'm not gonna do that. - That's how the sausage gets me. (laughing) - We're fact-checking all the music from here on out. - Yes, yes. - Yes. - That is one of the big tempo moments of the next few weeks you being on SNL and we have been able to hear your album and live with it for a little while. And by the time when this comes out, it's still gonna be a little bit before people. But we can talk about it, we have some details, we can give some gems out, a little teaser. - A little teaser. - So this album to me strikes me as a chronological structured, mini-narrative about the rise plateau, high plateau, and then collapse of a relationship. I'm curious from a rating perspective, are you writing those things in real time as the experiences are happening? - Yeah, for the most part, it is chronological and in the order in which it happened in my life. And it's the first time that's like happened and I think it was really interesting for me creatively to like structure it that way. But I've never been a person who's like, I'm gonna make a concept record and it's all gonna be this and it's gonna be this way and sound this way and look this way, I write songs to like process my feelings. So every day when I like come and like I sit at the piano or I get the guitar, I go to the studio, it's like what is like burning in me to say right now? - Yeah. - I think it just like all comes from the heart and I think it's not super like calculated in that way. And so. - So they sort of aggregated in a way Thank you. We're writing.
songs and then you took a step back and said, "Huh, it is kind of like boom, boom, boom, like yeah." Exactly, but I'm really happy with the way it turned out. And I think Dan and I, like, sort of like, after writing breakup songs and stuff, we like had the fun challenge of going back and like actually tweaking some of the love songs are on the record and making them a little more honest and more sad and creepy. Like the song "Purple" was originally a love song, which feels like a big turning point on the album. Like, six songs and it's purple and it's like, that's when the doubt creeps in and then the cure. It's like you flip the record and it's the cure and it's sort of like the unraveling, as we say, of this narrative. And so yeah, I was really happy with the way that it turned out and sort of after the fact. We've already written like the first, like, maybe six songs of the record and writing them more like sad, sort of decomposed songs on the record. We kind of like post-mortem kind of went in and changed things and sort of made it a whole body of work rather than, you know, like little moments. Is there a specific line or or stands in one of the first songs that you remember being like, okay, I really need to reframe this, I really need to deepen this, is there something that sticks to your mind? Yeah. I mean, like the honey bee lyric, like honey bee, honey bee is one of my favorite songs in the record and then having it also tying it back into the last song I think was really nice for me to sort of mean it feel more, like I don't think that it's a, it's not a concept album, I think that's doing it to service to actual concept albums, but I think it's like a capsule. Yeah, sure. And so like little things like that are changing purple or putting that little honey bee thing kind of towards the end of the process, me and feel like, okay, it's really an album now and it's really telling this like one story. I would go so far as to call it a concept album. You think? The narrative is so tight. Like, what is good kid mad city, if not a song, if not an album with a beginning and an end? Sure. So when I come back to the beginning, like the fact that it dropped dead, the opening track is like essentially before the first date and leading into the early excitement and butterflies of a relationship and falling in love. And one of the things I really like is there's different slices of what happiness in a relationship look like. Yeah. As you say, there's these little moments of doubt that start to creep in. And did you realize that you had an ending? Because if you're writing this in real time, presumably you were as, you know, floating on air as you were in some of the, these early tracks, like, where did you think the album could end if you stayed in that zone? Yeah. That's a good question. I mean, I think I always knew that I didn't want it to be like even stupid song to me. I was really inspired by this book, Simple Passion by Ani Arno, it's like this, she's having this affair with this person and she's not quite happy. She's kind of just going insane like everything she does, she's reminded of this person belonging like overcomes her and I was like really, I was really inspired by just all of the ways in which love makes you insane and miserable. You know what I mean? I think that there's a lot more, there's a lot more to mine there than just like, yay. I think so. I thought he's so hot. He loves me. He has everything. Right. I was always kind of curious about trying to like mine these more depressing feelings out of these love songs. I think initially I thought that that was what the record was going to be, just all love songs, but trying to inject some sadness into them and then obviously sadness in a real kind of more whole way crept, it's way into the end. I guess when I started making it, I didn't know how it was going to end and I think that's how I always start all the records, but yeah, totally. And you talk about the destabilizing nature of love and there's a song like Magnets for Brains, you know, which you have mentioned previously that multiple songs in this album are inspired by Miranda and from Sex and the City, and I knew that going in before I heard it. And that was one of the songs where I'm like, this is a very Miranda song. This idea that she's like, you know, my brain is mush basically is that, is that a Miranda sentiment? Yeah. Yeah. It's from the scene where Miranda is getting back together with Steve and she's like, whenever something funny happens, I always want to tell you about it. Anytime something funny happens, I want to tell you, and it's one of the lyrics in the second verse. But yeah, that's one of my favorite songs in the record, I really love it. I think when we made that one like sonically, I was like, oh yeah, like this is, this feels right and this feels like the point in time that I'm out. I think I kind of knew and Dan and I who made the record with like, I think I like love rock music and I have such a reverence for rock music and it's all that I like really listen to. But I think going into it, I felt like a little, like it wasn't, it didn't feel exciting to me or something. Like rock in the traditional sense of like power chords, like distortion, blah, blah, blah. That's not here on the song. But I think the song like that feels like alternative to me without being like, I love rock and roll by Joan Jette, which is one of my favorite songs, love that song. But like, you know, it was in a more subtle way. And that was more exciting to me than writing like some like really bang or thing, which I love those songs. I'm going to do that later. But I think like making that song was like, okay, this is like, I kind of like figured out what I like wanted the sound to be a little bit or like what was going to be different about this record. It's interesting to hear you talk about those, that style of rock not being as much of a draw as it was in the prior two albums because obviously there are certain moments on the sound that are really living in like the 82 to 85 world, you're, you're sort of getting the new romantics, you're getting the cure, you're getting a little talking heads. I wrote Devo down at one point in the order, but what does that sound in style signal to you that the pop punk and the sort of chords that you've been playing with previously don't signal? Yeah, just felt more exciting. There's something about the restraint of it that felt nice or I was just really obsessed with that type of music too while I was making it. I did Gosdenberry with Robert Smith, which was insane. I'd always been a fan of the cure, but like since meeting him and like getting, hanging out with him, I like kind of went back and listened to all those like new wave bands like that and I was living in England at the time. So obviously you get a lot of like English band info. For me, in songwriting, the sentiment always comes first. And so I knew that I wanted to write songs about how it felt to be in love and it feels like that to me, it kind of feels like that vibe, like the emotional quality of it. I can't describe it. It's just like that's how it felt. It didn't feel like. You also used, I think a clever trick where you connect the new wave of the 80s with music influenced by new wave, I think. Like there's some songs on here that sound like Latigra instead of Bikini-Kale, both like Kathleen Hanna, it's just points, but different sides of that. Big Olivia fam, Kathleen Hanna, of course, you know, Shao, Kathleen Hanna. I had a thought when listening to my way that there's like some no doubt in there, I know you're a big return of Saturn, you're all, and you mentioned the cure who span both of those arrows who continued making music through that and they are a through line through the album. You allude to just like heaven and drop dead the first song, then there's a song called The Cure, which will be the next song that people hear from the album that comes after purple in the track list, and that's the moment where you say you're punning obviously on the band title in some ways, but you say, "Buff's not fixing me, it's not, it's not the beyond the end." Oh, can you talk a little bit about the writing of The Cure and what that song means to the albums? Yeah. I think that song is the thesis statement of the album, you seem pretty sad for a girl so in love. I remember making that song and feeling so excited like, "Okay, I know what I'm like trying to say with this thing." I love that song so much, it makes me like emotional to listen to it now. I was on my couch, and I played the chords at the end, and I wrote the verse lyrics and thought that it was really interesting and brought it to Dan and we finished it together, and yeah, it just means so much to me, I think that that was a realization that I had and you can only have when you're like in a real big girl relationship, I think that for so long, when I was younger, I was like reaching for something and was like, "Oh, if I have this, then I'll be happier. If I have this thing in my, even in my career, I'll be happier. If I have this guy and he loves me the way I always thought, he would love me, I'll feel better about myself, and slowly throughout the course of my life and this relationship that I'm talking about, I kind of just realize that the issues that you have are just going to be solved by some other person, something can distract you, but it, and also-- I also even think that falling in love actually makes those issues even clearer to you. I think that's why it's so important, like some of my friends are like, "Well, I'm not going to marry them." I'm like, "Why would I be in this relationship with them?" And I'm like, "The way that you know yourself the most in this world, you know yourself so deeply and so intimately by like falling for people and being raw and gross and like making mistakes." And I think that that's such a thing that's unique to being in a romantic relationship. And so I think I was also figuring that out. I think I was in a romantic relationship that was actually real and intimate for the first time and being like, "Whoa, this is holding a mirror to me."
on seeing shit that I don't like about myself. - Yeah, of course. - That was a tough realization, and I think that that's embedded in the Q or two. And yeah, I really love the song. It's one of my favorite songs I've ever written. I think it's also in the context of the album, you know, where it sits, you know, just after the middle, but it's long, you're lingering on it. It's like you're telegraphing something, just simply by saying, "You're gonna have to sit with this for five or six minutes." Like that's, you're coding the meaning of the lyrics, but you're also coding in the structure, it feels like. - Yeah, yeah. I think that's sort of like the apex of the album too. Like I think in all the love songs leading up to it, like there's a hint of like maybe this dissatisfaction. I'm like, "Oh, I really miss them." And that's why I'm sad or blah, blah. And I think when it gets to the cure, it's like the most honest part where like all the artifice is stripped away. And it's, I love a song, I mean, love writing like a power ballot that like really builds, but like when I finished listening to it, it feels like it's some sort of like catharsis or like some sort of acceptance of like that this is your fate. - How do you know as a songwriter when something is worth writing a song about? And especially, I mean, look, I'm, I haven't been 20th in my 20s for at least a few years, four or five years. But I vividly remember the intensity of feeling, I remember the dynamism of being really up and then really down and then going back to how you felt a week earlier and kind of like the instability of that. And if you're experiencing feelings quite intensely and you have a creative outlet for it, what takes it from something that's in here to like damn, I gotta get this out. Is there a specific intensity of feeling? Is it a detail? What, how do you know? - Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know, I think you really, every time it's different, I'm a big like quantity of a quality songwriter. I write all the time about lots of things and then sometimes you stumble upon something that's good. I really don't know. There's not like a, like I'm never like, oh, I have an idea and it's gonna be an awesome idea. - Okay. - You're not stingy about it. - No, I'm not stingy about it. I have some friends who are the opposite and who like write five songs here and they're the best five songs you've ever heard. I write like 250 songs that are the worst and then I write like three songs that I love. But I just love the process of writing. I love being alone and like playing my guitar or like writing things down. It's like so much fun for me. I think I know if I've like stumbled upon something good, if I really wanna listen to it like a week after I write it, or if it makes me feel like, oh yeah, that is how I was feeling and that's a really clear concise way of saying it. But I don't know, there's, it's different every time. - And you're working it out in the room as well. Like you have your step in the process then you bring it in with Dan and then, sort of, I'm sure there's things that don't make it past that. - Meeting's changed so much. Even like you guys listening to the album, like I listen to some of the mixes before we sent it to you guys and it's like even like a month after making it, it just feels so different in your body. Like you just have totally different associations with it and I don't know, there's no signs behind it. I'm still figuring it out, I don't know. - You mentioned the ugly sides of even being in love and one of them that you touch on on this album and what I think is an interesting way is jealousy and being territorial, which is something that has been present in your earlier music, but not as you say from the vantage of a big girl relationship. This song, my way that I mentioned earlier, strays a little from the central relationship narrative and I thought you make a pretty direct choice to target it at another woman in the tradition of great songs like Jolene or a misery business or better than Revenge and given your standing among young women and how important of a songwriter you are to your audience, did that feel like a risk to write a song that pointed where you call yourself a petty bit? (laughing) - Yeah, you know what, I haven't given it so much thought. I think I was just really in the heat of the moment, writing it and that's how it is and sometimes you're like I really need to get this out and I'm fucking pissed and maybe isn't the most evolved thing ever to say, but I really love this song and I love the way it turned out and I love the sonics I was going through like some Gwen Stefani vibes in there. - I can't, oh yeah, oh my goodness. (laughing) - No one in time, I said no doubt. (laughing) - But yeah, I really love that song. It's, the album isn't very angry at all and I think that's the one angry touchstone that I, yeah, I'm really proud of that, I stand by it. - Is it okay if you're the villain? Is that okay? - Yeah, whatever. - I don't know, not being serious 'cause like I think, it's fun to play that character. - It is fun to play that character, but I also think that certain songwriters and certain pop stars have had anxiety over the years of like I'm known to be one style of person but I am a complex person. I have these different sets of feelings but sometimes they won't put it in songs. But they're like probably like two moments on the sound where I was like I think she might be okay with being the villain. - I'm wondering if you think of it in those terms. - Gosh, it's an interesting question. I've never really thought about it. I don't know, this sounds like a cop out but I just like know who I am as a person really well and I know my intentions and things and I know why I write songs and I know that I'm like a nice person and I'm not suggesting you're not a nice person. - I think that that type of criticism only really hurts when there's like something in it that I like think is like a little bit true. Like if someone were to like criticize something that I was already doubting, I'd be like ah God, like that's the stuff that gets to me but I don't know, I also think that pop music in a really beautiful way everyone is projecting their own experiences on to you. Like that's the type of songwriting that I do and that's, I love that type of songwriting as well I got into it like so many heroes that like do that type of songwriting and so I don't take it so personally. When I listen to my favorite pop songs I'm thinking about my experiences and like me in that pop song and how I felt with like my ex-boyfriend and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like I'm not really thinking about that person and like the exact specifics that they're talking about. - And people can relate to feeling and the epist and jealous and territorial and whatever it is. It's like that is as valid of a feeling as well would traditionally. - And I think the narrative will reveal itself over time I think like whatever I think that's out of my control and into my business I don't like fair enough. Since driver's license, one of the other things you've been praised for is your ability to drop a well placed curse word, especially an f-bomb. Vampire also has a great one and it's chorus. It feels like you're a little bit more sparing with it this time around. I mentioned that bitch. I think I counted two other f-bombs. There's a god damn in there. But I thought you really saved the most impactful one for what to me is like the defining line of the album and sort of the thesis statement outside of the cure. - They say modern love is a cruel endeavor. - To that I say fuck it, whatever. - Was that intentional the cutting back? So it was not to consider it a crutch to really save it for those gut punch moments? - Honestly no, I remember Dan and I the other day were like doing like clean versions of all the songs and we're like damn, this usually takes us two days back when we were doing sour and this took us an hour. But no, I think I'm just feeling less angsty these days. - I don't know what it is. I think maybe I swore more as a teenager as we all do maybe. - I persuade too much, which I've only realized now that I have a two-year-old who repeats what I say. - Oh my god. - And now I'm like, oh I really need to have a time now. - I need to come back. - Dan, I'm pretty sure there's a two-year-old too and we hang out with her obviously a lot in the studio. She goes up to her dad the other day and she's like, "Daddy, why does Olivia say fuck so much?" - I was like, "This is what I'm trying to do. "This is what I'm trying to avoid." - I was like, "Oh, she's got me by name." - She goes, "Thank you." The other day also, we were in the car. We picked her up from school or whatever and I was singing along to the song in the radio and she's like, so it's like crying. She's like, "Daddy, I hate it when Olivia sings." And I was like, "Oh no, I can reconsider a lot right now." - Probably 'cause she can associate with Daddy going to work. - Yeah, that's true. - Wow. - That's true. - Wow. - That's true. - That's true, kind of. - Well, you know, like it's sweet. - Her psychiatrist is gonna be in the house now. - Yeah, that's it. - Literally, I'll tell you, there's a therapy down the line for that. I can't listen to Olivia Rodriguez, I can't. That's really, really fun. - Oh, that's really good. - Wow. The tension on this album in the arc is about trusting another person and also trusting yourself. There are so many moments on your last album where I feel like it's you singing about how vast the world has become and how challenging that was to navigate and how do you identify in the real world, not in art, but in the real world, how a person is trustworthy or is a person trustworthy? Like, what are the things that are your, either triggers or touchstones and how those things changed over the last four or five years? - Yeah. - How do you know if someone's trustworthy? - God, that's such a hard question. I don't know if I have a profound answer for that. - That's all right. This is, look, the podcast is working on together. - Yeah. - Yeah, podcast is at least 10% therapy. - Oh no, I know, I feel that. I don't know. You know my biggest red flag, it's just not profound at all, but like, when I hang out with someone and they're like, - Yeah, gang. (laughing) - Fuck, look, 3,000 though. I, whenever I meet someone, they're like, yeah, like, a few of my friends, they just like, they just ghosted me. I don't know what happened. I'm like, hmm. - Ah. - Call's coming from inside the house. - Wow. - That's good. - Yeah, a few. It's like, one, maybe it's love.
- Maybe like, okay, so I don't even know, like I-- - That's a real spell, that's a real spell. - Like having like intense falling outs with your friends, like, I've never really had that in my life. I think maybe once or twice, but like when people that said repeated occurrence, I'm like, mm, interesting, interesting, interesting. I think friendships are like the biggest litmus test for whether or not I trust someone. I think like someone being able to hold down the long-term beautiful friendship is like the best thing that you could do. That's like you have emotional depth. You could care about other people, you're like-- - Other people trust you. - Other people trust you, which is-- - Yeah, yeah. - I think friendship is a big indicator. But I don't know, I'm so finger, I'm sure I'll get portrayed more in my life. Who knows? - I think vampires are really good, example of trying to figure that out. In real time, I'm maybe being fooled by someone who you thought was interested in you, but then it was really a fan of your fame, or your notoriety, or trying to get something from you. - For sure. It's soccer, fame, fucker. Please need joy like God damn vampire. - I think that when I listen to that album, it's like, it's so interesting. When you're in it, you can't tell. When I listen to it like these days, I was rehearsing for a show the other day and listened to all the songs back. It's just like really is like a 19 year old disillusionment with the world and just feeling like so confused. And I feel like I'm definitely less disillusioned these days, but like looking back, yeah, I was like betrayal and like finding your footing and I think, I think, I remember going to the album being like, I don't wanna write about like being newly famous 'cause that sucks and like I hate when people do that. And I think that there was, hopefully like, it was in there like a little tactfully sprinkled in, but I think that that was a huge part of my experience. But I don't think that it's unlike any other 19 year old going to college. You're just like trusting people. You're so open, you're around all these people that you've never been around. And you're like making all these mistakes and like figuring shit out in real time. How do you look back on guts not only artistically, but as a moment in your career because you talk about this pressure that comes with a sophomore album, you know, people invoke the sophomore slump a lot in terms of, I think exactly what you're saying, where it's like your whole life goes into your first album then between your first and your second album if the first one does really well. Maybe the only thing you have to write about is sort of what it's like to become newly famous and is that enough, et cetera. That album was successful on its own terms, of course, but I wonder how you look back on how it was received and how it performed and how that influence what you did on your third album because I was really struck by the fact that this album doesn't feel like you're searching for smash hits necessarily. It felt like you wanted to make an album album, a capital A album with the beginning, middle, and end. Thank you. And I wonder if any of that came from either how guts went or didn't go for you. Yeah, that's a really great question. I mean, I think it was hard. I mean, looking back, I have so much compassion myself, like that was crazy. What happened was sour was crazy. And at the time, I didn't realize how crazy it was, like obviously I was like, wow, I'm so happy and grateful. But I didn't realize that that like is insane. And I was 17 when it all happened. It's so wild. And if I were to be an outsider and watch that happen to 17, oh my god, so I think I didn't realize it at the time. But so I have a lot of compassion for myself, even after the aftermath of sour. Like that was so much pressure. Like how that, it was so insane. And just like people on the internet and all this criticism, when you're 19, you don't know who you are. In general, you don't know who your real friends are. You don't know who you want to date. You don't know what you really want to be doing with your life in a real concrete sense. And so it's just it was a lot. And looking back, I'm so proud of that record. I think putting it out, I felt a little like, oh god, it's like I'm never going to make anything like as big and as good as sour and blah, blah, blah. But like looking back, I'm so proud of so many of those songs. Like I think all American bitches, like my favorite song I've ever written. ♪ I'm the person don't ever get sick ♪ ♪ It's perfect don't ever get sick ♪ And I think like bad, I remember like thinking bad idea at the time was like, that's too weird, like, and I'm like, I love that song so much now. ♪ I know that he's my ex, but can't do it ♪ ♪ Well we can't let that only see him as a friend ♪ ♪ Be as wide as yours ♪ Yeah, it's just just having a little space totally changes her perspective on it. But yeah, I'm really proud of both of those records. Even stuff where I'm like, oh god, that song could have like, I could have lived without that song. It just, you know, I don't think I'll ever regret like writing honestly about where I am in my life. And I'll always have like compassion, love for. Yeah, I was gonna say, see, you hear them both as art, but also as documents of like the intensity of the process. For sure, for sure. This album feels very settled to me. Like, obviously you're going through an emotional arc, but you have clarity about that emotional arc. It's not, you're not zigzagging. You're kind of like, I think I see what's happening here. Even if what I'm seeing is bad and ugly, even if it was tough, but it's like, I see what's going on. Yeah. And does that track with how you live off the off the album, like is that when you're talking to your friends, do you feel like much more lucid as an assessor of the world? Yeah. Tell me about that. God, for sure. But I just think that that's growing up. But it's like, it's an interesting thing to grow up with the people who listen to my music. Like, I feel like we're kind of around the same age. I go through the same things and just like the lucidity that I see things with. But it's not unique to me. Like, none of it is. So like, I just, I think just collect so many experiences that you kind of know yourself more and know the world more. And I don't know. Every album, though, I feel like I'm learning about myself. And I'm also like learning how to write songs every album. I don't think I'll ever feel like, OK, I know how to do this. Like, perfect. I got this, I like, I know exactly what I want this to be. Like, every time I sit down to write a song, I feel like I'm learning it for the first time. And I think that that's what keeps it like exciting and fun as like a creative person is like, there's never-- yeah, I have like tips and tricks. And I like know all the pop songwriting tricks that you're supposed to do and all that stuff. But I just really feel like I'm like endlessly learning. And that's what I'm so grateful that I could do this job and just like keep being curious about stuff. One thing that I really enjoyed about this album, there are two songs that are on opposite ends of the album that both feel really unadorned. So it's like you're approaching both this part, an R&B, honey bee. And then I think it's, is it less on this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, OK, so there's a aesthetic choice here that's similar, but different sentiments. And I wonder how you think about the pairing of the sentiment of the emotion of the lyric with the production choices. And how do you know when it's time to deliver the restrain thing? And when it's time to be like, we're going straight to the new wave or we're going straight to the pop song. Dan and I love to like throw shit at the wall. And also this record, the feeling of like being like intoxicated with love for someone, it feels very rich and like orchestral and like honey bee, there's so much in there. There's like a choir and there's a, you know, string section. And there's this like beautiful like piano in it. And there's just so much. It's like feels really rich. And because that's how it felt at the time, you know what I mean? That's what it felt to be in love. I think a song like less was added obviously later in the album making process. And I think, yeah, it was us trying to practice a little bit of restraint. We were also trying to practice a little bit of restraint with the last song. And we were like, no, it just needs a big bridge. That's it. I can't do that. And I want to produce a lot of production. Yeah. We talked about the new wave influence here. And I wonder on these songs, on the piano ballads, essentially, what were your sonic touchstones for those versus the more upbeat songs? Yeah. I was talking to, you guys know, Wiseblood, she's so great. And she sang a lesson all with me, just a huge fan. Beautiful harmonies. Beautiful. She's one of the greatest voices. She's angelic, beautiful, wonderful person. But I was talking to her about it. And she just turned in a new record. She's like, it's so funny. I tried so much different stuff and tried to explore so much. And you just like always go back to what you're good at. At the end of the day, sometimes too. Which I think that there was just a part of me. I was like, I just want to write a singer-songwriter song that's classic, and that's sort of my sensibilities sometimes. And I love exploring and doing other stuff. But that's sort of 12-year-old Olivia fell in love with songwriting, first songs like that. And so I really liked that one. I think that was maybe the first song on the album, Honey Bee. And I was one of those ideas just like at home. And I wrote the whole thing on piano and just thought, wow, I feel like I really expressed something that was so hard to describe. And in the context of the album, I find it to be actually the saddest song on the album. I find it to actually be devastating. Yeah, that's interesting. Really? It's you seem pretty sad for a girl, so I'm in love with 2-a-t. It's this like-- It's this love song that's filled with so much hope, but also like a sort of knowing-- You know, you're writing exactly. It's like it's the music playing in the background. Very softly, you're like, exactly. The crash is on the other side. It takes me back to even pre-drivers' license, your first big song for high school musical, the series. All I want. All I want is love that lasts is all I want to much say. And that's one of these very yearning, extreme piano ballads. Who sings like that? Were you playing on the piano when you were 12 and 13 and a kid like when you wanted to just belt and yearn and feel? And feel in Apple was always my like yearn or piano queen. I got really into Tori Amos, so I'm just making guts, because I felt like she was like a piano yearn or better, but it also--
I felt like edgy and rock. - Yeah, punk. - I felt punk on the piano. It's really into the Dresden dolls too, like that was punk piano. - Sure. - There's something that I'll always love about just like a plain old piano song that I just feel like is from the heart singer-songwriter type of vibe. Yeah. What is your guys' favorite song in the record? Can I be the narcissist you can ask? - No, of course. I'm, how do you say me plus you equals part? - Yeah. - Say what, how would you say it? - I don't know. I've been talking about it a lot. - Yeah. - I'm like, how do you mean plus you? - Me plus you, we'll call me plus you. I think me plus you. - Or is it you plus me? Is it you plus me? - You plus me, yeah. - See, I don't even know. - All right. - All right. - So you plus me, we call it you plus me. - Eagles, Eagles. - Eagles created in three, heart, something. - I don't know. - We're gonna workshop this. - So here it gives you plus me forever. - Yeah. - I think it's a masterpiece. I really do. I wrote that in my notes. I'm not just saying that to you. - Oh my gosh, yeah. - It's very cranberries to me. A little six pence on the richer. It's like that, that jangly 90s. You know, I just, I think it has, it both has that line in the bridge that I mentioned earlier that I love, that I think is the greatest away message on this album. You're a little too young for AIM away messages, but that's where you put the quotes that when you're really-- - It's a Drake quote. - The old song. - That's what a Drake quote. - That's a dive. - That's a me. And I just think it has a great build and energy. Yeah, that's far ahead on that. Was that you weren't expecting that? - That's never been anyone's favorite. You're the first person who said that to me. I'm really excited about that. - What are all the people's favorite? Well, I mean, I'll tell you mine, but you want yours. - Okay. - She said honeybee. - I love honeybee. - I love honeybee. - Okay, but I'm sorry. Respond to Joe. Respond to Joe's. - I love honeybee. I'm really happy. We almost cut that one from the-- - No. - Come on. Are you actually serious? - It was one of the first we made. - You know how you, you just always like the song that you made. - Yeah, sure, yeah. - That's amazing. - Yeah, I-- - No, carve our names into the car seat leather. - Yeah. - As the owner of a very nice car. Do you know how stressful I found that line? And I was like, look, maybe in my 20s. - I've seen some of your 20s. - Yeah, I've seen some of your 20s. - And my 50s do not touch the car seat. - I love it. - I do not do that. - Yeah. - I know. - Oh, that's wild that you were thinking you've even cut it? That's insane. - Yeah. - I don't know. To me, okay, so begged, you plus me, honey bee, and drop dead. - Okay. - And begged. - I was so funny. You guys give opposite answers than everyone else in my camp. That's really interesting. - What are we hearing by scenes? - Yeah. - What are the hits? What are the fan favorites? - That's really interesting. - Everyone loves the cure the most. - I mean, the cure is obviously-- - It's a great song. - Yeah. - It's a center piece. - Yeah. - But when I was listening to the context of the album, I was like, this makes the most sense in the context of the entire album, because it really is connective thread-- - It is connective thread. - From A to B, but in these micro moments. And also, I love like a level wailing ass, like-- - Hell yeah. - I love a little bit. - You know, but like even the turn of phrase, I mean, you know, I wrote down a bunch of different lyrics. Even the turn of phrase on begged, nothing's quite enough when I know that to get it, I begged. - Yeah. - And just the sophistication of that sentiment, the understanding that just because you may have gotten something, it doesn't mean that it was the thing that you thought you were chasing. And the fact that you actually might be resp-- Like, you might have invented the salute-- Like, you might have invented it out of thin air. And it wasn't actually real because you were sort of forcing it. - Yeah, no, I think-- - Incredibly sophisticated thought process. - Yeah, I think that's a difference also between like an album, like, sour. And this album, like, when you're in a relationship that's deeper and you're older and it's more nuanced, it's less like, fuck you for doing this to me. Like, it's like, oh, I think that song was like, oh, yeah, this happened because I set this up and like, you fell short but I didn't really, you never promised that you were gonna do that. And like, it's like a, it's definitely more nuanced take than I feel like I had the emotional capacity to write about before. - Sure. - And so, yeah, that song is really special to me. That-- - It's very, yeah, I found it to be very savvy. Like, just like, very emotionally savvy. And I think, you know, like, obviously, as people who cover music extensively and just like, I feel like, you feel like you get to a point where you're like, I've heard every metaphor, I've heard every detail. And then, someone has a turn of phrase and you're like, oh, and you're that one. So this was, that was a great month for me. - Oh, thank you. - I'm interested in your development as a lyricist and how has your lyric writing changed between albums two and three verses between albums one and two? - I think, honestly, the challenge for me was in writing a love song. Like, I think that was a daunting task for me. Someone who was very known for writing breakup songs and being angry and sad and people love that. - Yes. - And there obviously is that weird, like, singers curse thing where you're like, the people only like me when I'm sad, you know what I mean? And so that was, I think that was the challenges that they're trying to write something about being happy and also making it interesting. And also, I think it was just like a thing that I wanted to prove to myself that I didn't have to be miserable through writing a song that I liked. - Did you use to think that happy songs were less valid than sad songs? - I mean, when I was a teenager, for sure. Like when you're a teenager, that's the shit that you listen to 'cause you're so depressed, you know what I mean? But, I love, I mean, as I get older, I think like writing a beautiful love song. Some of them, my son's favorite love songs are fucking devastating. Like, love song by the Cure is like this set. Like, however far away I was always love you however long I said. (upbeat music) ♪ I will always love you ♪ - Kill me, that's so sad. - Yeah. - It's so beautiful. - Yeah. - It was just me trying to write lyrics in a more mature way about love that weren't so black and white, you know? Like, all of these things can exist at once. You can be in love and also feel insecure and you can be in love and also feel depressed and you can, you know, break up with someone and still love that. Like, you know what I mean? There's just, all of these things can be true at once. And I think, obviously, as a teenager, you don't have the emotional like capacity to really internalize that. And so obviously, it wasn't reflected in the albums, but so I think that that was a challenge, lyrically. - Do you look forward to the day when you can look back at this album and this time in your life and say, "Oh, 24-year-olds also don't maybe don't know that much "or that much of those other words." Like, is that like, is that exciting to you that eventually even like this where you do feel? - I mean, like, I'm so scared for the night. - Yeah, I mean, like, is that, do you think, do you think like that? - Oh, yeah, I'm so scared for the night. - No, I mean, see that thing here. - I'm not trying to call you out. I'm just like, the way you look at your teenage years now, like, you will, whether it's in your 30s or 40s or later, you'll probably look at your 20s similarly, like, is that something you look forward to? That self-knowledge. - Hell, yeah. I'm so excited about it. It's a really interesting thing to have so much of your emotional, whatever, like, like, chronicles. - It's insane. I can't even imagine. - It's so weird. - All of these blogs and tweets and articles. - There's a lot there, though, but not to the level of detail that you do. And the fact that all of those feelings along the way of yours have meant so much to other people that they will live on long, beyond when you stop feeling them. - Lift them, yeah. - Yeah. It's really beautiful. It's a very unique job you have. - It's a very unique thing. I'm very, very lucky. I still, to this day, don't always understand how I, like, got so lucky. Like, and that sounds like I'm, like, I think I'm, I'm not, like, trying to demean myself. Everything I'm talented, and I work hard, but, like, going to a show and, like, looking out into the audience and seeing all of these, like, girls who are, like, nine years old, like, crying to these songs, and so deeply touches them, and it's so clearly, like, affecting their life in a way that I could have never, ever imagined. It's just such a, it's a really, really wild thing that I feel, like, really privileged to be able to do. I don't really know how it, like, I can't, I'm not, like, masterminding it. It just is, like, this beautiful human connection, and I just feel so lucky that I get it in such a potent form. In my job, and I, I just feel very, very grateful, and I hope that I can, like, keep being a positive thing in girls' lives like that. It's something that I think about. - Speaking of that audience and the platform that you have, I think one thing that separates your generation of pop star, even from the one that immediately precedes it, is, like, your comfort being explicitly political, and using that stage to speak to young impressionable fans who care about what you say, you know, you memorably spoke out when Rover E-Wade was overturned, since, come out against ice, you're spoken about Gaza. Have you received any pushback behind the scenes, to anybody telling you that that's a risk to your business, to use that stage and the audience you have to espouse what are in this day and age, sometimes controversial views? - Honestly, I feel like I'm surrounded with people who are very like-minded, and I really appreciate that. No one has ever been like, don't do that, no. And I always say, like, I really try to stay educated on things. Like, I make a conscious effort to try my very best, 'cause I think that's important for everyone, but I don't know everything. I couldn't list a bunch of statistics about things. I'm not, like, a geopolitical scientist. Like, but I'm an artist, and, like, what I do for my job is, like, this is how I feel, and I present it to people. And, like, I think it would just be, disingenuous to be, like, I don't feel heartbroken about what's going on in Gaza. That's just, like, as an artist, I feel like that's just what you do, and that's my job. But, I don't know. I also feel really weird taking credit being like, yeah, I'm so, like, I always feel like I could be doing more and saying more and stuff like that. So it's a, it's, you know,
- I don't know. - Was it something like that sort of purity of purpose and desire to speak your truth in a variety of ways, whether it's emotional or social, political? Is that something that comes from your household? Is it something that comes from, you know, do something where you're around a bunch of people and your teenage years who really encourage that in you? Like where, if you sort of trace it back to its origin, where do you think that it came from? 'Cause you've been doing it. This isn't something you arrived at this year. This is something you've been doing for basically the entire time that you've been very famous. And usually that's exactly the stretch time that people don't do it. So what do you think was happening to you in the years prior to that, that gave you the sort of sense of self to be able to do that? - Yeah, that's a really interesting question. Obviously, it's gonna make me emotional, but my parents are awesome and my parents never made me feel like stupid for saying something or never made me feel like I was being too much or too emotional or oversharing. And I think a group in a household were like me being outspoken and performing and saying what I believe in and like being ambitious was just so supported. And I think my parents, I have the most wonderful parents in the world. I was a child actor, which is really crazy 'cause my parents are like the least-dead parenting parents you've ever met in your whole life. But it's just like bread, I think a sense of ambition in me and wanting to express myself and do things and hopefully be a positive influence on something or someone, I don't know, but I don't know. I think I, I think I owe that to them. They really always made me feel like I could do anything or say what was on my mind without, you know, feeling ashamed. - And so there is in your mind like a moral component to being an artist. If you're gonna be a person who has a voice, who has sway, who has influence, you think that some degree of responsibility kind of comes with that. - Yeah, I think it's just a job. I don't even know if I would say like it's your responsibility to like step up but I just think it's like it's the same way that I talk about how I'm sad about a breakup on her song. It's like the same, it's the same thing. It's the same emotion. It's just like maybe expressing a different medium. - Most recently there was some internet detective work as there always is around you, people claiming that you liked post about protesting the Met Gala. - Enjoy your damn Gala. - Did you not attend for moral and political reasons or is that an overread? - Oh gosh. I'm not really a fashion girl, really. I'm not a fashion girl. - I just support you. - But also can't say can't elite. Many people who attend the Met Gala are not fashion people. And you know who you are. And I know who you are. - Gosh, she's my words wisely. I think I've, this is my third album. I think that I, I feel like I need to do things that don't like bring me joy or inspire me or feel only or feel aligned with my values or something like that. Like I, it's just, it's not like as fun or exciting anymore. Like I was fun or exciting. I was like, talk to you guys or making a song that I really love or like make a music video that I think is cool. - Right, you can say no. You're at the point in your career when you can say no, things are the best. - You can be a little more discerning and I think that that's cool. - And not a setback. Like it's, 'cause I know in the first waves of fame, you're just like, I wanna say yes to everything. - Like in my comic game. - Yeah, like literally like there are doors behind the doors. I don't even know where doors that I can open. But now that you've seen the doors, there's just don't like play a door. - Yeah, I mean, and it's sometimes is fun and sometimes it's exciting, but sometimes I just, I don't know. I feel like what's really fun and cool is like making stuff that I like and hanging out with my friends who really know me. I don't know, it's not, that's a very complicated thing. Speaking of internet detective work, there's a lot of sort of public speculation about your relationship with Taylor. - On going speculation that the Disney alum and the Aristor performer are not in friendly terms. - Taylor was retroactively credited on one of Olivia's biggest hits, Deja Vu, due to an apparent interpolation of Taylor's song Cruel Summer. - You're at a Paul McCartney concert in Los Angeles and you guys are walking out in the same time and then there's people on the internet being like, are they facing each other, are they facing what? I wonder how stuff like that strikes you. Given that I imagine you know how you feel and you know the state of play, how do you view that layer of scrutiny? - Yeah, I don't know, I don't really read too far into it. I think it comes to the territory and it's part of the course and I think if I dove into every internet detective sleuth that got things right or wrong about my life or any of my relationships, I think I just go crazy. It's just not enough time in the day. - I think maybe it started at such a high level for you around driver's license that anything after that. - For sure. - You were like, you went through it. You went through people trying to figure out who is this song about and why and was that nice to get that out of the way early? Maybe it wasn't nice to go through, but. - I do think so. I think it made me feel detached from it. I had to detach from it in order to like literally be okay, it's just such a crazy experience for everyone involved. And I think I just had to learn to detach and I think that that's something that I, hopefully I'm good at these days still trying to detach from people who don't know every little detail of my life. I think you just have to otherwise. You just go crazy. - I also think there can be value in someone like you setting the record straight or saying what you really feel about something when people are trying to guess how you feel, one of the other things you've been a lightning rod over, bringing back a conversation from 20, 25 more years ago is the idea of the baby doll dress and what it means to write girl and what it means to dress subversively or other people who say no, no, it's infantilizing or it's played out as a symbol. - No, that's making me so upset. Not even for me, I don't care. People could sort of even-- - Yeah, what does it mean to you? - What is that? - What is really disturbing? - I feel like I actually wear, I have worn outfits that are maybe revealing on stage. I've been on stage in a sparkly bra and little shorts and which is my right, that's fun. I felt cool and comfortable in that. And that wasn't inappropriate, but me fully covered up and addressed that people deemed to be childlike was inappropriate. And I just think it just shows how we just really normalize pedophilia in our culture. And also it's just this rhetoric that we're fed as girls since we're so little which is like don't wear that because then a man is gonna sexualize your body and it's your fault. Like it's so weird and I didn't think that I looked sexy and that I was like this is so cool. I feel like like Kathleen Hannah or like Courtney love all these people who are my heroes. And I felt cool and comfortable in it. And like I just think if we start dressing in a way that's like oh I don't want some fucking freak to think that I like and sexy like a baby or like some crazy thing like that. Like I just I just think it's like losing the plot a little bit. Yeah I'm just very protective of like younger women and girls and I just I don't ever want them to be big fed that rhetoric I guess. And also protect their right as they grow up to do whatever it is, whatever it ends up being. Weird cult it's like yeah you shouldn't be responsible for some guy sexualizing you in a way that was never your intention. Like yeah. One thing that I was curious about listening to this album you talked about girls in your audience seeing nine-year-olds, 10-year-olds cry. What do you want people to actually take away from the album? Are you telling them a story about romantic relationship? Are you telling them a story about emotional development? Are you just making songs you hope people sing along to? What's the thing? Like obviously the finished product is a collection of songs. But there's more. What do you want those girls to listen to on the day comes out, to listen to? What do you want them to feel and think? Yeah that's a great question. I mean I want them to like kind of be along for the ride in the story because there's a story as I go with the beginning and middle and an end. I think like the goal for any piece of work for me would be like to provide some sense of like emotional catharsis I think that would be amazing. Or some sort of like understanding or I don't know. I just feel like growing up if I heard a song that spoke to me and I was like, oh yeah that's how I feel and it helps me better understand myself and the way I feel around that I don't know insert issue here. I think that that's the dream and I would love it if that was somebody's takeaway. Do you feel like you're fan, I assume you have fan interactions that are more one-on-one, not simply like in an arena or in a stadium. What do you hear in those conversations? Like the sort of micro moments? Like what are you hearing from those girls? Yeah, it's so sweet. I mean, especially like the young girl. Yeah, yeah, that's sort of what I mean. And I think like sometimes I don't know if you live in like, oh don't you want to like lean into your older audience or something like that's so cool that like a eight-year-old girl finds like my song to be moving. Like that is like the most special thing ever. Like I remember being eight years old and listening to music and it just meant so much to me and the fact that I could like maybe be a semblance of that for someone is so exciting. And I know I just think that like people, like young people especially are just so emotional. Like I love the hearing stories from like girls who like have never held the boy's hand and they're like traders, my favorite song. Like my friend at school changed friend groups and it like devastated me. And it's like that is their whole, like turns their whole life on its head. And it's like so cool to like watch them process all those feelings and also in an environment like a concert where it feels like this communal processing of emotions. I um, I watched this documentary the other day called It's called the spirits in the forest.
Have you guys watched it? - No, no, no. - It's about fashion mode. - Oh wow. - It's about fashion mode, but it's not a concert film about, it's like doesn't have anything really to do with the members of the fashion mode. It's like these five people who are huge to fashion mode fans and it follows their life leading up to like the last to fashion mode concert in Berlin or something. - Oh wow. - And it's just like, it's so beautiful. And it's just about like how going to a concert is not even about like the lighting or like what someone's wearing couldn't metalize. It's like these people and the stories that they bring to this concert. Like one of the women who the documentary talked about she hit her head or something and she woke up and she didn't remember anything about her life. Didn't remember where she was. Didn't remember her name, didn't remember her husband's name, but she remembered every single of the fashion mode, Lerick. - And when I woke up, I didn't remember anything of my former life except one thing, which is the fish mode. Like how incredible is that? - Sounds like a daily mail store. (laughing) - No, it's just like-- - They're good ones. - Yeah, yeah, they're all good. (laughing) - But they're wild. - That's incredible. - I don't know how to watch it, but-- - No, we will. - It's just stuff like that. It's just so cool that I get to play a show or do something and all these people bring their own experiences of my songs to this show and we all share it together. Like it kind of doesn't, I feel like a concert, it's like 75% of what makes a concert great is the audience. Maybe even more. Maybe it's like 80%. It's like that's the number one musical instrument or like cool thing, like that does all the talking. - And you become this part of girlhood and you talk about the influence of Sophia Coppola on what you've done and you work a lot with Petra Kahn's and that's been a subject and a muse for her as well. And you mentioned these, this peanut gallery idea of like, oh, don't you wanna speak to your older audience? You know, you look at what Sophia Coppola has done and she did the version of Suicides decades ago and she's still telling that story in Priscilla from a different angle. Do you feel like that's ever a subject that you will have to let go of and move on from as you age and mature or do you think it could remain a forever theme for you? - I mean, I don't know. I guess I don't like come into my album being like, this is girlhood. Like I think I just try to like be like, this is where I'm at right now and I think that just maybe it's girlhood 'cause I feel like a girl, but I'm 23. So I guess I'm a woman now, but you know, I don't know, I just think there's something beautiful about like this shared experience that we all have and even like something like driver's license was a really special experience for me on so many levels, but that song meant so much to me 'cause it was about my experience, but also it just, like, united other people in their own experience of like a first heart break or something like that. ♪ Yes, you didn't make what you wrote in that song about me ♪ - I think whatever experience people, if it's girlhood, if it's something else, like if whatever they attached, whatever meaning they attached to the song I would be happy with. - There's one line that jumped out of me on this album 'cause I think on earlier songs and early albums, something that comes up here and there is like, you encounter someone, you're encountering a, and he's delivering you a line or a bit and then you have this awakening that like, he's delivering the line or the bit, right? And then that's that moment of like, wait a minute, like that's practice, that's rehearsed. But then there's a line on this album where you say, all my ex-boyfriends have heard these lines. - Yeah. - And all yourself out there. - Right, but to pick up on Joe's question about sort of girlhood as a topic and maturity and how songwriting evolves, I heard that line and I was like, oh, like this feels like just the tiniest suggestion of leaving some of that other energy behind and saying, like do you too? I do it too, is that, am I right to pick up on that as like a theme in that song and also maybe broadly speaking on this album? - Yeah, it's like what we're saying before, I think like the album hopefully is my most nuanced approach to a relationship and like it's, you know, a real relationship where two people like know each other and love each other deeply isn't like, well be who or mean to me that one time there's just so much, I've been flavors like learning about yourself and like your shortcomings and like the ways in which you have failed or have like, you know, or sabotaging certain aspects of the relationship, like I think hopefully that there are moments in the record right kind of acknowledge my own part and maybe some like negative parts of the relationship. - Yeah, of course. Yeah, no one's talking about-- - No one's talking about that. - No one's talking about that. - Be nearer to yourself, being comfortable playing something like a villain or calling yourself out for it. Also very sex in the city. - It got, it was in prepping for this. It got us-- - We did it. - Did you guys want sex in the city for-- - Oh, no, I believe in that one. - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - On the countless amount of times but it did cause us in a meeting to go around and do who, who, who, who we were. - Oh, he already told me who you guys are. - You wanna guess? - I'm a lost character. - We didn't like it one of the girls. - Yes, okay. - We kept this to the core part of it. - Okay, we need to do men later. - I've heard people be like, "I'm magged down." I'm like, "Girl, get out of here." - Yeah, it's like, but we did a, we did a man and a riser. - Okay, I think you're, I think you're a charlatan man in the carry rising. - It's gonna look tight. - Wow, damn son, that's interesting. - John, I think accurately, this is actually a twist. I said that I'm a Miranda with a dash of-- - Samantha? - With a dash of-- - Okay. - And John is actually-- - Wait a minute, I don't know. - I don't know. - I don't know. - It's okay, you can get it wrong. It's totally fine. - You don't know. - No. - Yeah, like that. - There's no wrong answer except all the wrong answers. - I know, I know. - You call me a charlatan. - Sick. - Sick, I love that, I love to see it. - Oh, I know. - I know, you're really on the spot. This is part of the demonstration. - I'm gonna say carry was a dash of Samantha. - Very close. - Okay. - I'm actually, I feel like I'm a carry with charlatan. - Okay. - Is that not what you identify us? - Yeah, I think I'm a charlatan with charlatan. - With charlatan. - Charlatan. - Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and this was instructive because sometimes the answer that I might arrive at myself, maybe it's a little bum bat, you know, but they arrived at it for me. - I mean, John felt good. - Obviously a carry. (laughing) - No, it's obviously a carry. - What? - It's a fucking chore. - What is it called with all the-- - It depends on what I'm supposed to do. - It depends on what I'm supposed to do. - Yes, okay. - Yes, fine. - Should we hit a couple of questions in our lightning round? - Nevermind. - Whatever. - That's the best part. It's groundbreaking journalism. (laughing) - It's important also that you know, you got to build lore. - Oh, really? - Also, we're building lore. - I have a custom sex and city shirt that I meant to wear today that I would not. It's a one of one made for me by a very dear friend, and I'm very sad I forgot to wear it today. - I love that. I love it. - I have a few like, you know, like cast and crew, it's like a thing at the right. I have a few sex and city wrap stuff. I don't know how I got it. - Like from eBay? - Like gift, yeah, from eBay. Maybe it's fake. I don't know. I still wear it with pride. - All right, so 52 cards in the pop cast deck. Each one corresponds to a pre-written question. Some are deep, some are shallow, and we'll see where the fate takes you. - All right. This is so fun. Thanks for having me, guys. - No, this is a, we're having a dream. - What do you got? - Okay, I got two of diamonds. - Two diamonds. - All right, two of sparkles, as I say. - Nice. - Okay, okay. Two of sparkles, yeah. Okay, again, we continue to learn that people's relationship to playing cards is beyond it. I didn't even know you could have unusual relationships to playing cards. - I have the most unusual. I love playing cards so much. I travel with four playing cards on me at all times because I have a game, yeah, four decks. - What do you play? - My manager's got me a betegah carrying case for my-- - Just for your cards? - It's like so bougie. 'Cause I don't go anywhere. - We gotta get you a pop cast. - Yeah, we're gonna get you a pop cast. - We're gonna mail you a pop cast. - I love that. - Wait, what games do you play? - I play this game called Cambio that's like, I think golf called golf and other places. - Okay. - And then this game called nerds. So I really like that it's like multiple player solitaire. - You're a deep-cutting card game. - Yeah, it's no go fish for me, like-- - Wow, no more. - I was a lot of solitaire. Like I'm trying to be on my phone less. And so if I'm like having that age, I'll just play solitaire. - Wow, can I just briefly identify myself, myself as an older person? - Okay. - Does the name, the game Egyptian Ratscrew? - Yes. - Oh, yeah. - Big on my school camp Egyptian Ratscrew champion. - Wow. - We're gonna play it. - Yeah. - After that, I was killing it. I was annihilating the older kids. It was a great time in my life. Like one of my early like highlights was a great moment. All right, two of sparkles. - Two of sparkles. - I might just refer them as sparkles now. Okay, this is a tough one. Some of these are light. Some of these are hard. This is a tough one, I would say. What is the most difficult thing that happens to you in your personal life, that your career prevented you from dealing with properly? - Oh, my God. - That's the deepest question we've asked, a couple of people have pulled this. It's been quite revealing. - I've led a very charmed life. I haven't had anything really awful happen. I think this is like in no way what was me, but I think I feel really sad that I didn't really have a childhood. - Well that's, I mean, basically huge and total. - You're like, I'm dizzy. You're like, I'm totally okay, but yeah, I was. - Yeah, that answer was like that answer. - That's the answer. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a little sad. Is it a persistent kind of like low grade low?
home. But something you think about a lot, but not maybe at intense spikes, but it's kind of always like hovering. Yeah. It reveals itself in certain, certain ways over time. It's just a push and pull. I live one of the most amazing life when I get to travel the world, and like have all these incredible experiences and talk to cool guys like you, but like I, yeah, I didn't ever, I wasn't in high school, I didn't have a good group of friends. I was just going to say, you know, was it tough to form friendships? Super hard. And it is even hard, I think for me, I have a wonderful group of friends now that I'm really like lucky and grateful for, but I do feel like I'm so ahead in certain areas of my life, and then maybe like in some like social areas, and like a little behind. Yeah, sure. Just because I was, I'm from school with only child, like I was very lonely, like upbringing, and I think that's why I like wrote so many songs too, is it made me feel less alone? Yeah. And yeah, it made me feel understand. And yeah, it's all good, it's all good. No, but it's also, it's fine. It's not, even if it's not all good, it's great that you have the perspective, you know, it's not, it's not something you're going to wake up 10 years from, be like, damn, I never thought about that. Yeah, I think that actually leads me back to something I feel on this album, which is that you're clear-eyed about not being clear-eyed sometimes, and that's a, that's a cool place to be. Yeah, cool. I'm not being clear-eyed. I like that. Next up. Okay. Okay. Nine of Clovers. Again, amazing. I learned something everywhere on the show. Clovers and Sparkles. What sparks your jealousy? Oh my god. You're pulling my heart on it. I know. I mean, listen to the album. I don't know. I mean, like romantic jealousy is definitely a thing that I've talked about in like all three albums. Yeah. It definitely gets like less all-encompassing, though, as I get older. What about non-romantic jealousy? Yeah, like just a really nice bag or a pair of shoulders. I like just, we're just like interpersonal jealousy. I mean, I get jealous people's songs all the time. Like, not in a midway, I'm like, oh, I don't like you, but like, that's, but that's also a really great feeling. So like, here's someone's song, be like, God, I wish I wrote that. For some people, jealousy is very animating. No, a really good motivator. Really a great motivator. It's like an indicator that, like, this is what I want. This is what deep down I desire, you know. That's real spill. Yeah. That's real spill. All right. Pulling on the card. Maybe I'll get a less intense one. I know. My god. The heart hitters. All right. Okay. Ace of Clovers. Yeah. This is easier. What are you good at besides what you do for a living? Oh, that's a good question. It's hard. Cards apparent. Yes. Yeah. You're the first person to say they have four decks. Yeah. Yeah. What else? Secret talent. I'm really good at yoga. Okay. I really got into it last tour because I was really stressed and now I'm really good and I can like do tricks and stuff. You like you? Skytang. Adrian. Like, who's your? Yeah. Yeah. I do love you up with Adrian. No, I can do the thing where you like hold yourself on the hands and your legs are jutting out. That's great. That's great. I don't see videos. I don't know if I can do that quite yet. I'm a girl can dream. A girl can dream. Yeah. I love that. Oh my god. You know, I think I'm a good friend. Damn. I think I'm a good friend. Really just upended the question. You're a really good friend. You really just rewrote the question. It's unbelievable. It's like in a job interview and they're like, "What's your grade?" I know. Have you ever had a job? No, I've never had like a regular job, which is that. You've had auditions. Yeah, I just had auditions. Wild. I couldn't even anticipate anything that came in. It's really good. All right. Two more cards and then the deranged snack combo. Yeah. I'm so excited. Seven of spades. Seven of spades. It's a good one. You read your own DMs. Do I read my own DMs? Yeah. Yes, I do. Yeah, I do. You go into the extra mailboxes. You go into the second and the third one. See what the actions like. I'll go into the verified. But you do. You read it. You don't, the team's not it's not outsourced to the team. Yeah, I know. I read your ideas. You read your DMs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was born in 2003. I know a sub. Yeah. Do you find it to be overwhelming? That people have that direct. Especially so much going on. People have direct access to you. Do you wish to do you like ever brick your phone? Do you ever like put it under the couch and be like not for two hours? I delete Instagram and TikTok off of my phone all the time. I'm like never on Twitter or like Reddit or any of that stuff. That's scary. But I just deleted all the time. But it's hard. It really is tough. That's this all some media. It really is real. And it like fragments my days and fragments my attention span and like it's really not good. Yeah. Only thing I'm addicted to pull a mark card. Yeah. Okay. Finale. Okay. Ten of cool overs. All right. Is that a poker hand? Is that like not quite right? Okay. This is a good one. There's also it's in between serious and like when's the last time something did not go your way career was and how did you cope with it? Oh yeah. I don't like talking about when things don't go well. I'm just glossing over and hoping that no one notices. You can talk about the cope first. You know, I've made so many mistakes or things I look back on like oh god that was so not me or like whatever. But I really do think and I'm not even like having a cop out answer. I think that when you look back at any artist career, I think the cream really rises at the top. You know, you don't all of my favorite artists have put out bad songs or like done things that are like not great or whatever saying a bad note or whatever. I think I think pound for pound. I'm like proud of my work. And so I think at the end of the day that's that's hopefully what people will remember. It's funny. It's funny you say it because sometimes I feel like when I get flak for being a critic and they're like how could you say a negative thing about blank? And I say to them, I'm like, who's your favorite artist? And they'll say whoever it is. And I'm like every song they've ever made is perfect. No true. Every song you like does a 10 year old? Do you still love? No. You have all these like touchpoint like we're all critics. Everybody views the world that way. And so yeah, I think that's the exact right way to think about this kind of thing. It's like and I think like my mistakes of the past have like led me to where I am now. And like nothing teaches you who you are better than doing something that's like, oh that felt really bad. Like that really informs everything they do after that. And so I'm like, I'm happy to have made mistakes and like done things that are maybe a grander made a song that wasn't that good. Like it happens. And it's all part of a cool life. And you're less self-conscious about that stuff now than you might have been, you know, sour around. Yeah. I think also, I mean, my last two records I was like, I mean, I was like 17 and 19. So I'm like, no, it's like I did the best with what I could at the time. And like with the people that I had around me at the time. And so yeah, I don't know. I used to beat myself up over stuff a lot. It used to be really, really harsh. And like something I think shifted me a little bit around like how awesome that I get to make music. And like feel connected to other people and make music videos that I think are cool. And like talk about things that are important to me. Like that's awesome. Like I think coming at that from a place of joy is just the only way you can really do it. Because it's like, yeah, it's awesome. Not music is awesome. It's a genuine gift, though. Yeah. And it makes our lives. But all that note, like one thing I've always appreciated about you is that you've been so forthcoming about your influences and people who are your heroes and what you're trying to live up to. And not all artists are like that. Some people are very stingy with giving credit or citing influence. And I think you've remained open-hearted about that. But it's come back to bite you a couple times in terms of songwriting credits or album covers where people trying to call you out for borrowing or whatever it is, borrowing a little too much. How have you pushed through that? Those what I assume were pretty hard times in your creative vision being called into question and how do you remain open with what it is that inspires you when stuff like that has happened? Yeah, I think it's a really hard time, like just personally. But I don't know. I'm a fan girl. I love music. And like nobody can like take that away. That's so cheesy. I love music. And I feel so lucky that I get to do what I do. And I love so many songs. And I've grown up being surrounded with awesome music and awesome bands. And I truly just do feel so lucky. And I love writing songs. And I would be writing songs if nobody listened and everyone hated it. And everyone thought I was bad. I would still be writing songs because it's what I like love to do. But I like that you call yourself a fan girl because I feel like some artists especially at your level are ashamed to identify themselves that way. You gotta be a fan. What's it's so boring? Not be a fan of music. There's so much good music to be a fan of, yeah. And it's like you weave it into your songwriting. You know, just like the act of being enthusiastic about music is often in your songs, a proxy for the act of being enthusiastic about a person. I mean, me adding to Joe's point like, I do think people wonder.
Where those things that were tough for you earlier in your career, did that leave a frost between you and other songwriters? Is there a frost between you and Taylor? Is that something that hovers over your mind? Is it something that you think is a construction of the people who are doing internet detective work? How do you view that now that you're a few years removed from the initial kind of like ruptures? I don't know. I think I tried to not let it get to me or upset me. I think I just tried to keep it truck in. I think there's no, it was so long ago. There's no use in helping on it. I just try to make songs that I love and try to be kind and good to other people in support of other people. I've always tried to be like that. At the end of the day, I think that's all you can do. Being supportive is like, again, I was looking at the opening act list for your tour and I was like, this is like a very wide range of styles of artists, but also it's like you're identifying people you want to take on your wing a little bit maybe, sort of safe to say. Yeah, I mean, I'm just like huge fans of all the people that are opening for me. And friends too. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I could sit here and be like, give them advice and blah, blah, blah, blah. I feel like we're all just flying by the seat of our pants and I'll just like taking what comes when it comes. And yeah, I don't know. People always tell to ask me that. I was like, we're giving chapel advice and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, like, she's giving me advice. Like we're all just like figuring it out as it comes. Well, it's in the judge we'd like to do. Yeah, but it's cool that you've done that. I mean, to the fangirl thing, it's cool that you've done that backwards and forwards. You've taken the breeders out on the road. You know, you've put your, you put on your heroes and given them an entryway to a new audience and you've done it with up and coming acts. So that's, that's been important. Yeah. I mean, it's not calculated like, oh, cool. There's something like that. I just like love all those bands and love all those artists. And I'm like, so stoked that I get to be around them and hear them play. The breeders thing definitely felt radical. I remember just when that announcer came out, I was just like, why don't more people? This is like such an obvious idea in terms of like, show your lineage backwards and forward. You're presenting also, especially with you with such a, like a young and open-eared fan base. Like what you're saying to them is like, Hey, if you like me, it's actually a whole, yeah, the whole universe behind me. For sure. Yeah. That's been a lot of people don't do that because I think people are anxious. I truly think people are anxious that light. That's what I was getting in the show. Yeah. They're going to show too many of them to show something to a fan. And they're going to be like, Oh, actually, I like that. I like that better. And that's why, you know, that people have very young artists opening for them. I mean, there's a bunch of business reasons, of course, as well. But like the idea that you, as an established, established performer, like what I would actually like to show you is something that was meaningful to me. And that actually makes the whole show kind of an Olivia show because you're like, this is Olivia. This is what made me. This was me and then you get to listen to that. And then you get to listen to me and you get to actually draw the lines. And I think that's more people should do that, totally genuinely a smart and underutilized move. No, real. Sack time. This is, I, are we all eating this? Oh, yeah. We are all eating this. Every episode of podcasts ends with a snack. Olivia Rodrigo walked over to our snack table and picked these hers long hats, sharp, probable own. This is a Philly classic got from Wawa last weekend. And then this leftover dip that I brought to our Super Bowl hang. I'm sorry. Is that expired? This is shelf stable? Should it be in the fridge? Okay. I was like, no, I came from the shelf. It came from the shelf. Can you just look into it before you've subject our guests to eating this? I have to like take a stand. It's expired. It's expired. I can't smell it like on. It's expired. We don't have to. It's expired. I'm sure it's fine. I don't think this really goes bad. I don't believe in expiration dates, but I will not make you eat this. I can't say I've ever had like dip on the shelf before. I love a French onion dip in a can on the shelf. No refrigeration. That's like one of the greatest things in the world. You know what I meant? You would think so. They figured it out. I don't have questions. I'm not going to make you eat this. This is the last cool ranch allpeno flavored dip. It smells like it should in my opinion. Yeah, it smells like Taco Bell. It smells like Taco Bell. Oh my god. It doesn't smell bad, but I'm not going to make you eat it. I'm not going to make either of you eat it. I might try it. And if I end up in the hospital, you guys will say really honestly. This is this should we should have. We did it. I think that anyone would ever pick it. I was mostly there as a distraction, but you're a sicko. Yeah, this is absolute nuts that out of everything on the Korean snacks, Japanese snacks, British snacks, Chinese snacks, and you this is the flavor life fillys crunch off champion flavor. Longhatson sharp provolone. Wow. Yeah, Philly King, shout out Zach Barron, Philly King, Carrie Batten, Harry Batten, Nick Silvester. We got a lot of Philly in our lives. Yeah, yeah. Joel and Bee. You're excited. You did your best. Thank you for what you did to the Celtics. Mike Schmidt. Oh, that's that's a great smell. That's a great smell. That's not anything I've ever tasted to be honest. Now, let's just like a peanut. The peanut shell. Oh, wow. Oh, it's tart. It's tart. Interesting. A lot of a lot of depth of flavor and the spice comes all the way at the end. This would be really good with the sub sandwich though. I understand. Wow. Wow. Cheese steak and some of these longhatson sharp provolone flavor. Cheese steak. Sprink contour mouth. Sprink a little in the cheese steak. Okay. I love these. I'm so understand, but this is a cheese and hot peppered flavor chip is straight out of my brain. Gotta make it happen. You want some more? Yeah, I do. Yeah, go in. I do. Really good. Too spicy for you, John? No, it's actually quite right. Are you anti-spice? Yeah. I have a very tender stomach regrettably. It's hitting in just the right way. It's just the right amount of pepper or whatever it is right at the back. Guys, I've had such a good time. Oh my god. I'll miss you. I'm going to visit you in the hospital. I'll miss you. I'm going to try this dip. The extra episode of Popcast is inside at the hospital. It's a good dog. You're wild. It's fresh. You're actually wild. It's fresh. That has been here for four months. The entirety of Popcast. That's sat there. I'm going to live. Do you have anything that you want to say to Joe before he goes Let's rank these chips. What do you got out of 10? I'm coming back for more. I feel like you're mixed in the facial reaction. I can't decide if I like it or not. I think it's why I keep coming back. It's moving in a lot of directions at once. I can't really place it. It's like salad dressing tasting. It's spicy. Right, but it's in sort of like in sequence. You're like it's kind of like mealy and then it's like oh it's unctuous and then you're like oh it's sharp and then you kind of love a hers chip in general though. I feel like the hers ridges are really strong. I've shouted out I think one of my favorite chips all time. Her's ketchup. Yeah, ketchup flavor is extremely good. It's hard to find, but this is I don't know. You go first. I give it a hard six. Wow, okay, but it's like a six like is it a good six like six trending upwards or six kind of like I'm just trying to be nice. No, like so it's just living right there. Okay, six. I'm going to say it's an eight. Wow. And I'm going to say it's the only thing that's not working for me is and I will say this is a hers chip and maybe even a lace chip problem. To me, the kind of when you crunch it, the immediate mealiness of the potato, you feel it's like it has a thinness to it. It's not quite full crunch. Yeah, I want something where I'm really like not fighting it, but there's a heft to it. And I feel like the hers like they dissipate extremely quickly once you start chewing them. And then all of a sudden, you just left like a layer of spice. And so that's the only part that's not working, but it is a it was an adventurous route. It was it really was like zigzag left, right up down like it's a cool it's a cool chip. I think I'm a seven and a half. I wish it was spicier and I wish I had a sandwich. I wish I had a sandwich. It was a sandwich and be a night. It's a great side. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not so low. Yeah, for sure. All right, Rodrigo. First of all, let me write. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being a pop guest. What a blessing. Happy to have you here. Thank you so much for coming. For months, years even, John has been saying, we'll see you next week. This time, I mean it. Every episode of PopCast is at nlitimes.com/popcast. Like and subscribe on YouTube. Follow us on TikTok and Instagram. Follow us to the Olivia Rodrigo tour. We'll be back next week.
PodcastTranscript AI