Political Capital (with Pierre Novellie)

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Is Facebook dying? I'm Tristan Redmond, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. More than 15 years after the social network, a new movie on the inner workings of Facebook hits cinemas in October. The journalist who's reporting "inspired" the film tells us why Facebook stopped being cool and whether meta its parent company can reinvent itself. For more, listen to the Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to "Storm Escheteer" from BBC Radio 4, a guide to the use and abuse of political language. I'm Imagine Urchi, and this week I'm joined by comedian Pierre Novelli. Hello. Hello. Welcome. I'm seeing you in the flesh. We collided briefly last series as I emerge from my chickening juiced coma, which I'm not going to explain anymore, because you just need to listen to previous episodes. You know what I mean? Yes. You and Phil Wang took over. Yes, the show. Like a raven in the tower. Someone with an Italian name has to be on this show. Oh, gosh, yes. So I stepped in to provide that. Well, thank you for that. Thank you. Well, look at Ethnist's T and surnames later when we're looking at the phrase "Legitimate concerns" that's used a lot these days. But the primary phrase we're going to look at first is "political capital", which has been used by Andy Burnham a lot. It's the Week of the Labor Conference with terrible timing. We're recording this as before Andy Burnham speaks. Yes. But this will be going out days after he's spoken. True, but luckily loads of things have been leaked as giant babies. Yes. To the papers. So we can have a big maybe discussion. Yes, I think it will be very much that because what I've been reading is in his conference speech, Andy Burnham will say this. Yeah. And then quartz from people saying he's going to say the unexpected. So he's going to say stuff that we know about. But also stuff we don't know about and never did know about until he said it. Yes. Because some of the leaks are about nationalizing energy and some of the leaks are about social care and some of the leaks are about immigration. Maybe each person who leaked is saying the unexpected about the next leak because they didn't know they were leaking. It's a sort of recycling symbol of leaks. Right, yes. Maybe that's it. Which then the more you recycle it, the more it builds up a kind of speed and energy and creates a wind effect. Yes. That will actually take us into the 22nd century. Yes. Oh, just very quickly. I just want, I just, it's really scallion. It's really scallion. Yes. That's when you think of something after the time you should have thought of it. I only raised that because I just wanted to mop up a few bits of head Davey from last week's session. Of course. Stuart Lee and I were talking about Ed Davey and a word cloud and how it said man as one of the most popular words that came up. And through a process, you can only understand if you listen to it. We ended up with Ed Davey, the crack in Awakes as a sort of Lib Dem. So I just want to say thank you to Golden Arrow 74 and many others who messaged me and actually said, I can't see why you didn't think of Ed Davey calling his party the Liberal Democrat. Very nice. It is very nice. And I now thought, yeah, I just, I should have. So thank you to those. And just while I am mopping up the listeners, we had a letter from Sy Egan. So Dear Amanda, I've noticed that some policies are described by the politicians are associated with them. That to write and Corbinist, for example. This is fine, but my MP here in Exeter is Steve Race. I can only look forward to his continuing political career. And I'm sure that we will all eagerly support his racist policies once he's PM. Thanks for a vote. So Sy, yes. Unfortunately, I think that in some form, another that might come true. Yes. You're not from Steve. Not from Steve. But a PM. What are we laughing? What are we laughing as the ship goes down? Anyway, yes. Any other unfortunately worded politicians surnames? I mean, Elb Ed Bulls isn't in anymore. In Namibia, there is a Hitler. Oh, is there? There is. It's found him. I think there is a Hitler standing for in politics. Yes. Yes. But last year he changed his name. He didn't want to be associated with Hitler. With the other Hitler. He likes to call him. So now he's Adolf Unona. He was called Adolf as well. What? Yes. Yes. He needs to have a word with his parents. Okay. Well, let's get on to the political capital. What does that mean? I was trying to think of a good definition for it. It's the gap between your non-supporters red line and your supporters red line. For how much they'll put up with you. Yeah. The size of that gap is the size of your capital. Right. If we assume that your supporters are in the majority because you're the PM and you have all the MPs and your voters and whatever, you can annoy the general public by passing things that they might not like like getting rid of triple lock or whatever. But only as far as that then descends towards the kind of pointless red line of where your supporters will tolerate us. Yeah. So they're at the mercy of backbenches more than ever, I think. Because there's a huge, huge labor majority. Yeah. Way bigger of a majority than it took to establish the NHS and the welfare state and all these huge, huge reforms. Massive things, projects. Yeah. And no one can do anything. You've got a couple of 10 meters of railway. That's right. It's incredible. HS2 is just going to be those 10 meters of railway. It'd be like on the roof of a train. Yes. And it's got up and down the west coastline. One of those heritage sort of steam train things. So they've kept the platform and they've got about 100 meters of track and you can sort of see it arrive. It's only arriving. Yes. And being resetted. Yes. But just 100 meters of it so that everyone could go, wow, imagine if we actually had this. Yeah. Right. That would be a legacy. But again, political capital, the fact that he's already talking about it and Anger Lurian is talking about it being used up, kind of makes it almost feel like a currency that says real as crypto or your political capital. But again, it lifts it away from the actual day-to-day doing of stuff. Yes. And it implies that even though constitutionally as the PM, you've got these sort of god-like powers, you're still sort of at the mercy of a sort of a stern drawing room of ants or something who always knows. Enough of that. Quiet down. And only let you do maybe one thing in term. Yeah. Every five years you choose one special thing that you get to focus on. But why then? I mean, it's interesting. Why announce in advance that you're going to use up your political capital? But why announce in advance that come the general election? You're all going to hate me. I'm keen to be destroyed, torn to bits. Yeah. But I still want to be the leader at the next day in the election. It's sort of bravery politics, isn't it? And I'm brave. We've had the years of no one doing anything. And I'm going to just throw my car right into the wall for you people. For some reason. Yeah. It's displaying a lack of self-interest in your own survival politically, which I think is very popular. But then you do have to follow through on it and actually. Well, this is a thing. I mean, nothing towards this notion here of like we're in a sort of strange metaphysical world of politics is about ideals and words and notions and ideas, rather than the practicalities of how we achieve these things. Almost like it's much more interesting and it gets your attention to base yourself more and more in this idealized plane of what can be done, what we're not going to do, and what we might do, and what we need to talk about we should do. Yes, and never commit to doing anything. No. But commit to. Having a conversation. Exactly. And commit to being against things that are bad. Yes. It's very clear on that. Oh, absolutely. Yes. All that bad stuff that you don't like. Yeah. Which I need not specify here. Well, we're coming up to Peter Till in a minute. He's got stuff to say about badness and evil. But Andy Brownham has been absolutely clear. There's not going to be a snap election that the election will be in 2029 in three years' time. And yet he's already talking about commitments that he wants in the election manifesto. Or maybe closer ties with EU, or possibly the triple lock being looked at on the social care service and various other on looking again at the physical rules. So he's already talking about the manifesto. And the electoral reform. You can practically print this manifesto off right now. But it's not going to happen in three years. And what's he going to spend the three years doing? I know. Just preparing us for how much we're going to hate him. And it does remind me of my, you know, continual putting things off at university. Just revision. You don't revise what you do. You just do a new revision timetable. It's time to have a tough discussion about our revision. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And at once you've spent an hour on doing a new revision timetable. You say, yeah, I've done quite good work today. I'm going out for a drink now. Yeah, yeah. I've used four different highlighters. Yes. Well, let's get on to the, the notional Andy Burnham speech that will have been uttered by the time everyone hears this. But first of all, in the build up to it, some of the language around, it's being built as being substantive. Yeah. But at the same time, in the build up to it, no one wants to be quite detailed on what the substance would be. No, even if it will be this parliament. Yes. It's substantive. Not now. Yes, that's the key. But maybe now. Yeah, we'll be saying, but big, maybe not now. This is one of the big, maybe. The big, maybe. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, and so you then get, and we should look at some of it, you get the call, did language about, politicians talking about, I mean, that the conference, we will be returning to the right values. Yes. Yeah. Which is something everyone would always agree with, isn't it? Yeah, no one's advocating to return to any of those. those wrong values that we had in the before time. - Yes. - It's about time that we've changed those to the being the right ones now. - Okay. - And is it the before time when the previous party was in power or when a previous prime minister was in power who we will not name? - You need to kind of describe the past as on a sliding scale from one to two years ago, awful. And it gradually gets better as you approach the founding of the NHS. - Right. - And the blitz. - And it gets greater by the time you hit the blitz. - Yeah, well then they go, well that was great. We all agree that it's brilliant. - Yes. - And someone dressed like a First World War soldier will go on Britain's Got Talent and sing a song. Well, you know, there'll be no this kind of delirious. - So it's about, well, of course the labor slogan here is hope again. There are two ways of looking at hope again. You could go hope again or you could go hope again. - That's more realistic. - Which I think, you know, those sacked when Burnham got in. That's how they're pronouncing it. - Yes, definitely, exhausted. - Yeah, we've tried this. - Can't just keep hoping. - But can you, because you were talking about what didn't happen, what we do want to do, how difficult that might be doing it, but at least we should say we want to do it. All of that is different from actually doing it. - Yes, yeah, lots of talks about conversations. - Yes, there we go, as opposed to doing the thing. - Yes. - We're gonna have a tough conversation about when to give you this feeling. - Yes. - Well, do I need the feeling or not? - Okay. - Do I get charged for this tough conversation or will it only happen when I get the feeling? - Yeah, exactly. - Just that we need to talk it out. - Yeah, yeah. - Or take it out. - Or take it out. - Conversations also, not a debate either. - Oh, yes, that's true. - They don't want to have a debate, 'cause go well, that will be bad. - Yes, so that's like someone, you know, coming in and seeing that your child has taken a scissors to the curtains and saying, we're gonna have to have a discussion about scissors. - Yes. - Yes, yes, yes. - And it's not really a discussion, is it? - No. - No, but it also will never quite take the scissors away for some reason in this version. We're gonna talk a lot about how scissors are bad. - Yes. - It's beyond our power to intervene with this child. - And I hear you when you say they're also exciting. I hear that, they're good at cutting. - They are good at cutting. We all agree to admit that. - Let me be perfectly clear. - Cutting things with scissors is the correct and right and proper moral use of scissors. - Yeah, unless it's the curtains. - In my opinion. Well, yes, because one of the things that have emerged was the triple lock, the pension triple lock, and discussions about where they're actually, it's sustainable in the future. It's especially if we want to pay for a social care. - Yes. - Yeah. And he's implying that he's willing to risk it all just to fix the one big issue that no one's been able to fix the sword and the stone, social care. - Yeah. - But maybe not this parliament. - Well, no, but maybe putting it in the manifesto. As a commitment or a commitment to review it, I don't know. - A conversation. - There was an interesting thing that Angela Rainer said about all this in an interview with Sky News. First of all, she said that Andy Burnham is right to start the conversation. - Good care. - Yep, yep. - And we're just at the start of the conversation. - Oh, yeah. - God forbid, we claim to be near the end. - Yeah, yeah. - Nobody has changed hands at this stage, right? - Only browsing. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Just taking a fault at what? - By the magazine, you don't just take photos of it. It's expensive. It's a London review of books. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Right. But she said, "Primonists typically want headlines suggesting they will quote give away lots of sweeties to lots of people." Well, Burnham is quote, "A Prime Minister who said, "I am okay with burning through all my political capital to the point where it might finish me off on the basis of my legacy will be something better and different." That's quite loaded. That's kind of saying. Because I heard when it was speculated heavily, he's going to talk about social care. I read a lot of people going, "That's very brave." - Yes. - Yes. - It is brave. - Yeah. - Because it's an issue that is sort of trying to open a crate with a crowbar that's inside the crate. - Everything that might fix social care is hamstrung by another thing that will lose you the election. - Yes. - It's a big ring of landmines that you get to sprint around and around. - I mean, I hope it's real, because it would be kind of amazing for someone to go, "Okay, I only got three years as Prime Minister, "but I fixed social care, got rid of the triple lock, "and no one, after you, will be willing to undo that." - Yes. - Because you've just done the one thing that no one was brave enough to do for a quarter of a century or more. And that's it. And then you, I don't know, you retire. You go work for Facebook, I don't know. (laughing) - Go back to being mayor of Manchester, I guess. He probably would. - Yeah, you could do, yeah, yeah. There's also, and we've picked up on the several times, there are also key words that politicians use that nobody else uses. In advance of the speech, Burnham Self said, he had thought of doing a tub-thumping speech, but he thought that wasn't appropriate. But have you ever tub-thumped? - I'm not knowingly tub-thumped. - No, I don't even know what you do when you tub-thump. - You stand on a stump, you do a stump speech, but you stand on a stump and hold the tub and thump it. - Well, is that a good combination of stump-thumping speech? - A stump-thumping thumping speech. (laughing) - Hang on, so you tub-thump on the stump? - You tub-thump on the stump. - Okay, right. - Maybe. - And what does that look like? - I think it looks like a tough discussion. - What is a tub? - What is a tub of margarine, or is it a massive tub? - I think they mean like a. - I think you've got a thumpet. - I think they mean a big tin tub in front of the fireplace like in a sort of minus cottage. They think it's such an old phrase. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Big tin bath. - The other one I've seen is lockstep. We need to be in lockstep. (laughing) Why is that so funny? - Lockstep. - I tub-thumping needs to be in lockstep. - But what is lockstep? - That's everyone marching in sync, I think. - Yeah, well that sounds faintly sinister. - Yeah, yeah. - We're going to do marching lockstep towards a tough conversation. - Yeah, we launched a couple of weeks ago, we launched, we put the Kierstammer metaphor tree to once, what we chopped it down and sold it for firewood. And we've now launched the Andy Burnham set list. - Yeah, yeah, of course. - In the set. So I just wonder what he'd be playing, what be on it this week. The right values, that's, yeah. Would he lead on that or? - The right values is a third song, not a floor filler. Hope again is the big anthem that gets everyone piling into the dance floor. - Hope again. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And at the end, just to kind of bring the, just to urge people to go home. - Tough conversation. The lights go on. It's time to have a tough conversation about what time it is and whatever it actually looks like. - No one hangs around. Nobody knows how tough conversation ends. They're all gone by then. - Yeah, I've been reading lots of, one of my favorite poets is Wallace Stevens. You come across Wallace Stevens? - American poet. With his head of an insurance company, all his life, but just wrote extremely good poetry. - I've heard of this. - Yes, like T.S. Eliot never stopped working at the back time. - Exactly, yeah. And he wrote a poem called Not the Ideas about the thing, but the thing itself. Which, just that phrase popped into my head this week as I was looking at this perpetual word clap. - You're a great party conference slogan. - Yeah, yeah. - Be really good to see that. - Instead of, sort of hope again. Not ideas about the things, but the thing itself. - Yeah. - That would be really strong. - Yes, and he talks about, in the poem, he talks about, you know, reality and quote, "Not the vast ventriloquism of sleeps faded, "pappy mashy." - I do urge you to just pick out a Wallace Stevens poem and look, it's just a fantastic phrase. But that thing of, you know, I can't quite grasp what's real here. - Yes. - You're in a sort of fog, thick fog or a dark prison cell, feeling along the walls. Well, where, what furniture's even in this room? In no one knows, but furniture's being promised. Having a tough conversation about where the light switches in this room. - Yes. - But, you know, if there was a light switch, would it make any difference, given how foggy it is? - I suppose it would look a bit like a light show. - It would be something. - Yeah. - Hope. Hope again. - Oh, Christ. (laughs) (dramatic music) - Is Facebook dying? The journalist who's reporting "Inspire the Film" tells us why Facebook stopped being cool and whether meta its parent company can reinvent itself. (dramatic music) (laughs) - And do you think it's all this is partly based on a residual thing that Andy Bono has, which was he wasn't elected as Prime Minister? - Yeah. - And desperately wants that kind of electoral validation, but he knows he can't really do it for some time. But he can't tread water for three years. - And you can't, it's strange that we have a situation where we say to the public, you need to accept that a couple of thousand people in make a field have chosen the Prime Minister and you haven't. - Yes. - So screw you. But also, we're gonna needlessly hold the Prime Minister to account for someone else's manifesto. Well, which is it? - Yes. - The can't pretend he's the same as the one that was elected nationally. Doesn't make any sense to do, you have to pick one or the other. - Yeah, yeah. - He shouldn't really be bound by it, but the public have developed American expectations of direct democracy. I think that the American cultural domination of the British mind has led to people sort of going, well, why don't I vote directly for the leader? - Yeah. - Well, what do you mean I only vote for my local MP? - Yeah. - And they get, no one can tell that the local MP isn't the same as the local council. They'd write to their MP about bins for no reason. No one has a clue constitutionally whose job is water. Don't think that helps. - Interesting interview with Nigel Farage yesterday about, Durham Council were various reform control, but various reform councils have resigned. It started with them saying, I mean, if you look at Durham, the things it's done, I mean, a lot there to be proud of. And it was pointed out to him that 10 reform councils have left. At which point he said, I don't know the ins and outs of Durham. I don't know. The alleyways glute. Yes. Yes, I run the avenues and alleyways. Durham, I know not. I just know some of their policies, just in a vaguely positive feeling when I remember the name, Durham. Yes. Durham, Durham, Durham, oh, stop it. The other phrase when I look at his understandable concerns, yes, not just concerns, no, but understandable ones, understandable. And it's usually referred to somewhere in the debate on immigration, on asylum, on boats and whatever. You never hear about incomprehensible concerns. They are left unaddressed. I think it's more vibes based language. Understandable concerns means that you have wiggle room as a politician where you can say they are concerns that I can emotionally empathise with, but politically disagree with. Do you think it's a therapy language infecting politics? I hear you. Let's converse. I understand you. I'll do nothing different as a result of our interaction. Although if you look at the other side of the debate, there are, it's like legitimate concerns. That's usually applied if there's been a disturbance. If someone like Danny Tomo has turned up and done something, you can condemn or at least not condone, yes, the behavior, but you could say, however, there are legitimate concerns here. So you're sort of, you're saying, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't put on a black balaclava and turn up at Dover and weighed into the sea. However, I think you say, I'm kind of on your side. I think you say legitimate concerns when it lines up with you notionally and understandable when it doesn't. Right. Yes, that's it. So if you were to say forcibly construct a new prison in a small village, yeah, and they all said, well, we don't want to prison. So it was very understandable. I understand that it's not nice to live. Oh, yeah, I'm saying, you're annoying me now, you villages. The prison's coming. You're getting it. Yes. But of course, I understand that you're not happy. Right. Where is legitimate concern means that it's not happening? Oh, yeah, yeah, because then they go, well, I agree, it shouldn't be in your lovely village. All right, yes, please vote for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, you can tell where a politician comes on the on the spectrum by whether the concerns are understandable or legitimate or real, sometimes they're real concern. Now, what's that? Is that more root at low? Is that or is that I can I'm moved? I think that's more root at low. Yes. And I think it's what it's when they you say, not only do I agree, but I'm claiming, I'm claiming reality, I'm planting the flag of reality. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But there are real concerns about yeah, yeah, that's the strongest one, I think that's the most firm one, even more than a legitimate. Well, I mean, Rubel, we discussed it before is he's really kind of waiting into debate about not ethnicity, but Englishness as a definition. Again, we come down to language. It's like, how do you define these words? And he is saying that someone is only probably English if both their parents were born in England. Yeah. And therefore, that rules out the king. Yes, it rules out me probably rules out you. What's your background? Both parents born in South Africa. Right. grandfather born in England. And the other on the other side, great grandmother born in England. All right. I think so there's a there's English on both sides, but it's all jumbled up with with Dutch and Italian and a bit of French way back. And you must, of course, obviously, in South Africa, you must have been disgusted by the whole kind of the oppression of the white majority. Well, it depends if you're it's confusing that Elon Musk confused the Americans. But yeah, from a South African perspective, correctly saying that he was an Englishman, right? Because in South Africa, if you are broadly, you know, your anglophone, that you're you're you're broadly not an Afrikaner. Yes, then you're known as an Englishman. So even though my name is is practically the name of a Belgian magician, let's be honest. Please welcome. Yeah, yeah. And amazing cavalcade of tricks and novelties with his political miss. Yeah. Yeah. So even in that situation in South Africa, I would say, I'm an Englishman or people would say he's an Englishman. Yeah, because it's a colonial understanding of, oh, well, of the flavors of white person, the two main ones are Englishman, whatever that means, and Afrikaner. And you're not an Afrikaner. So therefore, yeah, you're an Englishman. So lots of Americans got confused and thought this meant that he was identifying as British from now on. Because they don't understand. So Africa's got like a lot of, you know, former colonies, it's it's got its own universe of ethnicities and that don't translate to the European mind. Exactly. And what's happening here is, I mean, Richard who acted in a interesting column the other week talking about this, like, ethnicity, basically summary of it was how he said, you know, when he was a, we became Prime Minister and in first non-white British Prime Minister. Yeah. And he said, the remarkable thing was it wasn't an issue. And it was there weren't screaming headlines and whatever. But that's changed now. That's sort of discussion has changed now. And it has become an issue. And he talks about once we say that this or that person isn't really English or British, because they're not white, then we're on a very slippery slope, attempted to deny people their Englishness or Britishness, because of the color of their skin is a recipe for alienation. Perfect. I understand. Well, he didn't want to ever to be an issue. And it never was. But no, he's like, and you have heard people talk about, you know, the cricket test. And therefore, what's his wishy soon act? You know, and all that sort of thing. What does it mean for him? And yeah, it's the split between Englishness as being English as a national identity and as an ethnic one. Yeah, we've managed to reintroduce ethnic tensions into a country that hasn't really had them for a long time. And that's a good thing. Is it? What's I think it's if you frame every discussion in terms of ethnicity, eventually you'll arrive at this place where everyone goes, well, I'll pick one then. Yes. Well, you go, don't pick one. We're trying to move into the future. I'm trying to have tough conversations. But not these ones. Confusingly, Suella Bravaman and those words confusingly and Suella Bravaman have frequently gone together, has weighed in on this thing. And she's actually said, no, I'm not English. I'm British. Yeah. But I'm not English. She says, I take the conservative approach, Englishness is an ethnicity. There've been English people for centuries. We need to recognize this more. If we just start taking a more muscular approach to citizenship. Yeah. What's you trying to persuade us off there? I think what's changed is I remember talking or having explained to me by Frank Skinner that it used to be that when the England side played a football match, everyone would be waving union jacks. Yeah. Not the England flag. Right. So this idea of being British in English was they're going the same. Yeah. We own that. If you want to play the Scottish flag or Welsh flag, okay, go for it. But you know, British English, that's us where we're the main ones. But it's split now. And growing up, I find it harder to claim to be anything specific within the United Kingdom. But I'm definitely British. But can I, I'm not Welsh? I'm not Scottish. I've lived in England for a long time in my English. Well, that's what you know, I, you know, I'm Italian in Scotland. I'm a Scott in England. Yes, yes, exactly. You know, when I was working in America, I was a Brit in America, you know, and it just made me think that one's national identity is not a fixed thing. Yes. And I love the fact that I have Italian heritage as well as Scottish, you know, and I love the fact I'm British. But Italian, they're two great countries, I do, with fantastic culture, a very proud of both. The idea that you have to somehow shrink it down, that, you know, you've got a list of choices, you can pick one. Yeah, I think that's the utility of the term British is, is enormous. It's the closest thing we're going to get to a, I think we should be jealous of the Americans having, which is this, anyone could be American, just do this kind of basic history test and then fire some fireworks a couple of times a year and welcome to the club, you know, enjoy your freedom. We've never, that's changing in America. Yes, I mean, no, arthritis is in ship. They're, well, that's it. They're also trying to sort of balkanize themselves, or go back to the language of ethnicity, which they never, never did. But without the utility of a macro term like British, we're never going to be able to claim to be a whole thing. And it's just going to get more and more small until, yeah. Yes, regments, that's right. It's a reductive definition. Yeah, that certain politicians are after, whereas actually, you want an expansive definition, don't you? I think as the British termics has expanded, English people who used to use either one interchangeably have all looked at Scottish nationalism, Welsh nationalism, Northern Ireland, maybe, and gone, well, okay, I'll be this more then any team that goes more in favor of their own side drives the other side to cohere as well, like mercury forming all sorts of little balls, it'll separate out into this little thing. And that's what restores, then it's a little ball that's formed out of reform. Yes, yes, there will be another one. Well, Tom, Tommy, Tommy, Tommy, Tom, Tom O'Party. What's his name? Danny, that is called, it's Edmontimes, Daniel Thomas, who goes under the alias of Danny, Tom, I thought alias, I think he's going to disguise who you are. It's not even a shorter number of syllables. Yeah, yeah. And obviously for legal reasons, we can't go too much into what he's alleged to have done. However, he did live stream this, you know, dover, you know, dover, you know, happening, dover, hate to pass on those me. Yeah, you let them. I'll be sick. Three weeks ago. You're listening to BBC Radio 4 and now you're in yours. I don't know what that says. I think that he felt I'll carry on live streaming this because I'm leading a revolution here while throwing up into the sea. Was that sea sickness or no? Yeah, I think it was moral sickness. The stink of what's happened to this country, got right up his nose. Yeah, yeah, down his lungs. I think this is just going to keep happening for as long as you can make a sort of TikTok career by being some kind of community activist. It felt to me like if you want to look at it at a cultural level. The narrative of this episode has been politics is getting more and more reduced to just key words. Yes, it signifies certain things but don't necessarily imply when those things might actually become concrete. At some point we're going to reduce those number of words until they become a noise. And the noise from the extreme right will be this. And you know, and people know I know what that means. I know what I know what that means. But what would the Lib Dem noise be? There will be like thousands of people marching down the street going. You know, that noise will have to be banned. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, it'll be prescribed. Yeah, I don't know how you spell it on a placard, but it still have to be a tough conversation about how to spell the noise. Actually, the trials would be very good. Am I on at the alleged was alleged to have said, yes, what do we put in the square brackets? Was that four or five times four times, Melod? He also went. Before we go, we just got time to hear Peter Teal of Palantir, a bit of statement this week about evil. Yeah, see what you think of this. If you're evil, you're at least competent. And if you're evil, you're not bad. And therefore you're actually maybe you're actually kind of kind of good because you're at least getting something done. A lot on pick there, but we have to very, very quickly. He's one of the world's leading theologians isn't he Teal? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He likes to sort of loosely imply that if no one minded and if it was okay with everyone, then really maybe he should be a kind of global dictator. But actually, I don't mean that he'll say, well, of course, no, I don't mean that. And I do like nice things and puppies and children as well. Oh, he did then go on to say, yeah, in case you're going to miss quote me here, I do want to make it clear that good is better than bad. I think he said that. Yes, his argument was that being evil implies you have some kind of plan and that's always a good thing. Yes, he would rather have evil effectiveness rather than badness, which is goodness ineffective. Yeah, I think. Yeah. Do you think evil effectiveness is going to end well? I don't think so, but Peter Teal said so many words in a big mad buzzing cloud that I sort of. I was almost willing to agree out of exhaustion by the end of the sort of two-minute segment. Well, maybe their listeners can help answer that question. Yes. Is evil and bad better than good and bad or good and evil better than bad? How will evil effectiveness end? And if you keep it to 12 words or less, that would be great. Yes. Thanks for listening to Strong Message here. I'll be back next week. And why not go and listen to some of our episodes from our back catalogue just search for Strong Message here and subscribe on BBC Sound. It's goodbye. Goodbye. This cultural life from BBC Radio 4. I will never go into anything so deep like that again. The world's leading artistic figures reveal their creative influences. Disabay, disagree, disavow. I'm John Wilson, and my recent guests have included the sculptor Anish Kapoor, photographer Annie Lieberwitz, the actor Kristen Scott Thomas. It has made me good at telling stories about people who have a secret suffering. And former children's laureate Frank Cottrell voice. If art's got one function, it's to point to what's wonderful and say, "Look, this is your world, it's insane." Listen to this cultural life on BBC Sound. Is Facebook dying? The journalist who's reporting "inspired" the film tells us why Facebook stopped being cool and whether matter its parent company can reinvent itself. For more, listen to the Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your pods.