Podcast Special: In conversation with Peter Burke, Minister for Enterprise, Trade & Employment

[Music] The other hand is part of the Acast Creator Network. Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the other hand podcast. We're in the midst of intense global economic uncertainty at the moment, obviously the situation in Iran is changing from day to day. Today, Tuesday, we've had the publication of the Department of Finance Spring Economic Forecast, which is doing what the IMF did last week, which is basically producing a central forecast and then looking at some scenarios about, you know, if the war turns out to be longer, if oil prices remain higher for longer and so on. So different scenario forecasting and that's indicative of the sort of uncertainty we've out there at the moment. We've just had the fuel protests over the last couple of weeks and hopefully they're sorted out. And I guess the preparations within government for budget 2027 are now beginning. The budget is due to be delivered on October 6th. This evening I am joined by Peter Bark, who is the Minister for Enterprise Tourism and Employment, TD for Longford, Westmeat. So Peter, welcome to the podcast and thank you very much for agreeing to talk to us. If I could set the ball rolling really and just ask you a little bit about your role, you know, there's three parts that are part and at least that's what the title suggests. It's enterprise, it's tourism and employment and maybe if I start with the enterprise piece, what do you see as your priorities in that element of your departmental duties? Well, there are a number of the priorities that is great to be on with you, Jim. One of the first areas that I really took under my wing was the indigenous economy and obviously looking at costs because when I got this job, we've had an accumulation of costs over the previous number of years and if we're being quite honest about that, a lot of it was government led. So you will have seen a number of actions that I brought in last year in terms of firstly putting a cap on sick days, not increasing the number of sick days in relation to that obligation placed upon employers. A reset to trajectory to a live and wage attack, which is very important to do quite quickly. We reassessed the trajectory for our permits as well and the cost of them and obviously getting the SME tests into the government cabinet handbook. All those areas were critically important to shore up the indigenous economy and look at the cost base because I'm very acutely aware that about three quarters of minimum wage workers are in the hospitality and retail sector and that's an area that I was very much attuned to trying to assist them. And obviously you're looking at your indigenous economy as well as your foreign direct investment and we've done a lot of work in relation to our foreign direct investment as well. We have our national semiconductor strategy, Silicon Island, which is very important and delivering very significant results. We've seen a number of investments since we brought it forward. We've worked on a life science strategy which again feeds into the indigenous economy and the foreign direct economy which is very important. But one of the big things I want to do is look at costs and that's what we have a relentless battle on a simplification revolution that I'm trying to embark upon in the department and we have our cost of business advisory form due to reports soon, which also will take a key role in reducing costs. And how is the cost of business forum going? Is there much tension and disagreement around the table? Well, first of all, we've all the regulators under one roof. We're looking at the timelines for plannings, for consensus, for licensing, right across the economy and particularly the interoperability of a number of the regulators that we have on the landscape, which quite frankly is not efficient enough and in many cases not fit to meet the dynamics of a modern business environment that we all operate on. So we're trying to ensure that we get a number of simplification measures that we can all agree on because from the revenue commissioners to the EPA right across the board, we have everyone under the one roof. The only ones that are a bit slower to come to the table were the last society but I'm glad they have come to the party even though it was a little bit late. Well, critically, we want to have an absolute view of how to reduce costs in our economy and business owners and directors and senior management. Time is the most precious resource. If we're attracting investment into the economy, we don't want to be battling with various state agencies and one asking for data and information that was previously asked by another regulator. So we've a lot of work to do in that regard and to build confidence back into the economy, particularly with the capital infrastructure and spend, we're looking to deliver over the next number of years and critically for the private sector to come aboard on that level to be critically important. So a lot of ambition definitely in the forum. 99.8% of businesses in Ireland are SME in the sense they employ less than 250 people and within that there's huge proponents of sort of micro enterprises. So the SME sector is the lifeblood of the economy, particularly of rural economies and regional economies. But I guess one of the objectives that we would all like to see in Ireland is companies scaling up to a greater extent. How do you assess the environment for companies scaling up? It's a critical journey. It's one which we're looking at very closely here. We have our new vehicle, which will be Starrathop Ireland, which is now currently in Genesis. We're working on essentially how we deliver that. To give businesses the opportunity to scale and grow, which we want to see happening at a greater scale. It does strike me as incredible that the top 10 Irish-born companies now employ 450,000 people globally. And when you look at that figure, it really demonstrates the internationalization of the Irish economy to see the Irish-born industry is operating at such a high level. We know now, through enterprise Ireland, our Irish companies employ roughly about 240,000 people. We're going to grow that up to 275,000 over the next five years in our plan. We know that at this point in time, they spend about 38 billion euro in the economy, export about 37 billion, which is a record at the moment for Irish enterprises, which is pretty significant. So I think we are in a good place. And critically, if you look at the spring statement today, it shows at all levels, exports growing, goods about 2%, 7% for services, which is very important for a very important and very open economy, which is very susceptible to international shocks. As we are, we have to be quite honest and very deliberate about that and the policy choices that we make. But it's great to see that there is that confidence there. So we want to try and get more companies scaling, exporting and start up Ireland, hopefully we'll be a key vehicle to do that. And we've a lot more work to do in our tax code. I think in incentivizing that because we know our UK are nearest neighbours. The changes they have made in the capital gains tax code and incentivize entrepreneurship. We have to keep going in that journey. And we made changes at last year, but we've further changed that thing to make to really make it easier for investors to come in and have serial entrepreneurs operating in the economy too, which is a lifeblood of an economy as well. So would you be in favor of the capital gains tax going back down to where Charlie McRevy had it back in the day, as 20% for example? It always amazed me the way the left in this country never got over that. They still complain about it. But yes, two years after it was halved revenues almost doubled over that period. So would you like to see that in the longer term ambition for Ireland? I've called for and I've done a lot in the last number of budgetary submissions in looking at linking it to entrepreneurship. So if you have those who invest in companies, invest in startups and obviously the limits are very, very meager for a lot of them for some of the very significant investments that you have. I think we could do a lot if we link it to entrepreneurship. Doing it to wider economy, we just have to be cautious at the moment because there are a number of areas of tax heads now that are under pressure with society. A think of carbon tax comes to the forefront. Obviously capital gains tax, we want to do a lot more capital acquisitions tax. We see that reform is badly needed in that regard, it's crying out for reform. But we just have to keep an eye on how does that erode tax base right now. So how much additional investment can we accelerate into the economy by moving capital gains tax? I think we can, if we work first at entrepreneurship, get zero entrepreneurs investing and reinvesting. And if we encourage that, I think we bring a lot of additional capital into the economy, particularly with our competitors. We compete against other countries with tax jurisdictions. I think we're a bit of a disadvantage at the moment. I know that at honest, I hopefully, I will do work on that this year. In terms of the farm direct investment piece of the economy, the FDI piece, how do you see your role there? Obviously, FDI is critical to a lot of what we do. So one thing that strikes me very significant is how much the supply chain is really embedded with the indigenous economy. You also remember today I met a guy, a managing director of a printing firm down in the balance law. And he said to me, Peter, he said, one of the key products I make, one of the key leaflets I put together is used by a life science company, a very significant multinational. and that's a big part of my client base. If you look at companies in the semiconductor state, let's say likes of analog or Intel, you know, you've offers of 900 companies in the supply chain for some of those semiconductor companies. When you were talking about Keirin and Steen Langford, you were talking about Baner her concrete, all those companies very much built into supply chain. So it's critical that we keep growing our foreign direct investment in this country as well. And it should never be played at one against the other, because one benefits off the other. And that integrated relationship is what I want to see with Enterprise Ireland working more closely with the idea. For example, we get Dexcom command and tatnaroy with a huge big building delivered. How do we build into supply chain of our indigenous sector to benefit from that and benefit from the additional services that they're going to require? And that's not a work we're doing in service to several agreements between the agencies, which are very important that once we win an investment, that you have someone from Enterprise Ireland in the room as well, working with the management that are coming over here. So they are very, very closely linked. And one thing I always point out is that some of these companies are on our landscape 70, 80, 90 years. So it's not that we walk up a decade ago on all these companies appeared. They've been hired one by successive governments, setting that, you know, pragmatic, centrist policy, looking at essentially, you know, rewarding Enterprise. I always think one of the best moves, and I will admit budget 2026 was difficult. It was difficult for employees in terms of indexation and choices that were made. But one thing I'm absolutely certain about, the choices that were made in this budget, particularly under research development and innovation tax credit, enhanced into 35% with our corporate tax code. Now it says that any company that invests in research in our country, we're given 50% of a rebate back to you. That's pretty significant. And we're going to get, and we're getting massive investments because of that. One particular company said to me, you know, we're taking it investing over the next three years, one and a half billion euro in research in Ireland. That will change the dynamic because where we become exposed is that if you went to foreign direct investment and they're doing a product line early stage, when that beds into the medium term, we become exposed to lower cost jurisdictions. And sometimes we've seen over the last 12 months to who we've lost some of that manufacturing. But if we keep reinventing that, encouraging the early manufacturing, that huge knowledge that's needed, that innovation, we keep recycling that. That's where we win. And I think we can pay for a lot of the indexation and a lot of people's own money back under paychecks over the next four budgets by decisions made like that and budget one. You launch the digital strategy quite recently. You're working on the life sciences strategy, the semi conductor strategy. And I guess overlaying all of that is the rapid technological change we're seeing out there at the moment. And AI is obviously the future. What type of future we don't know, but it certainly is the future. Looking at Ireland as it tries to exploit, you know, moving up the value chain, exploiting AI, technological advancement and development, the data center issue seems to loom large over all of that. How do you assess that whole situation? Because I heard during the fuel protest, people demonizing data centers, but it seems clear to me that we really do need to get on top of the data center development if we want to move up that technological value chain. Absolutely. I think that's critical. So first of all, what I would say is that data centers are so important as a key integral link to 175,000 jobs we have right across our economy in the IT space. Very well, high-paid jobs. And that's why we've taken a number of decisions over the last six months. And they were a choreographed. First of all, we brought forward the CRU, the independent regulatory authority, brought forward its own determination. So investors now know if you want a new data center in Ireland, you have to have two things. You have to have one, your gas generation equal to 100% of your demand despatchable. And secondly, you have to have 70% of your corporate power purchase agreement and I don't know the parameters now. Second, what we came forward with, which is quite important, is the large energy user policy. Really given number one, the places for room, which we have around the country right now. And secondly, looking at our energy parks, where you can have a large generation project together with a large energy user. The Midlands would be quite early, I think, in leading. We're having the first one, which would be quite significant and very important. Demi can fall a PR6, which is the new capital plan. That's about 19 billion euro. The lesser was about 8 billion euro. It shows you the ambition. We're going to 500 infrastructure projects around the country. It'll bring our large energy user connectivity from about 800 megawatts now up to two gigawatts. That's of contracts that are currently going through the system. And obviously the CRU rules then will apply for the new contracts. And subsequent to that, we have our private wires, which will be an integral part of our large energy user parks, which will be allowing a private wire in legislation for our energy user for a connection. Again, off from that agility. That's what we're known as a small country. And the final point I would do is bursting these myths. People think that data centers are judged by the tariff run. The fixed costs for data centers connecting to the grid are huge. And the finance a lot of the grid infrastructure that we delivered in the country. So if you have a household that's obviously getting a fixed charge versus a data center, you know, a data center costs millions and fixed costs to connect and put in the infrastructure that people use the simplistic one sentence arguments to connect say, "Oh, here's a data center. It's paying out less in your household. You're comparing apples and oranges. It's not like what like." Tell me about the renewable energy commitment. Is it consistent with the data center strategy? Absolutely. Because your digital transition has to finance your green transition. I'm very clear about this as an economy. So if you look at your green transition, it is difficult to finance. But what we can do is looking at the five gigawatts of energy we want to deliver as we embark past 2030, it's going to be critical for offshore renewables to be financed by large energy users. I don't want to see a situation where we're again, reliant on international markets that we produce a heap of energy and we're relying to export it and we're relying on orders to use it or not. I want to book that value here in Ireland. So I don't say, "Why can we not have the large energy users here?" You know, Germany has the automotive sector. That's a large energy user. Look at the amount of power demands on it. We have the climate for data centers and some other high energy users. We have the power, our plan delivery of it. You know, the country in the world is constrained right now. There's a 12 gigawatt shortage in the US over next two years. They have their problems. Every economy is constrained with large energy users. But we have a plan to deliver about nine gigawatts of solar over next five years, eight gigawatts of unshore wind. And obviously we have five gigawatts of offshore, but we need to finance that. And large energy users can be key. Number one on finance in it. Getting these forward contracts off the ground that the number of plannings on the east course can take fruition. And secondly, we can book that value for the Irish economy and then lead on to the west course. So I think that's a key sweet spot we can be in as a country. Yeah, I have to say I totally agree with you on that. Moving on to the second part of your portfolio, which is tourism. For the first time in this government tourism has been turned into an economics ministry. For the first time, and I know many stakeholders within tourism, warmly welcomed that at the time. I saw you speak at the Irish tourism industry, Confederation Conference in the Lyraff and Kilkenny last October, where you outlined your vision for tourism. The first thing I just like to get your view on is how significant do you think it is for tourism to bring it in to an economic ministry? I think it's very important. For the first time we have taken a view, if you don't measure it, you can't manage it. So we've put targets into our state agencies in how we work with enterprise Ireland and engage with them, how we work with the IDA and engage with them. So we have set a very ambitious agenda to grow, but our domestic market and our overseas market over the next five years. We've really worked so hard of putting in clear parameters whereby we want to bring forward a culinary strategy this year. I think it's a huge ambition for food, particularly in a European market, which is under pressure. And we can do a lot more billionaire distilleries and our art is an offering and we're going to regard it as that. The accommodation strategy coming true, hopefully this year as well, looking at an area that doesn't have the ability to deliver hotels and large scale accommodation. How can we look at the term of loans? Can we work with ice fund that I think there's a piece without bringing in the tax code. I think there's a piece we can do with the state and assisting delivery of hotels and areas where you might not have them otherwise. We're looking at lending the season because obviously so much of tourism happens in the between let's say June and October. So I think it's a lot of work we can do with regard to that and critically building up the digital capacity of our businesses right across the country because we know about 80% of research online booking everything is online about 40%. odd percent of those are using generative AI to plan out their itineraries towards the con here. So we're really looking at redesigning a lot of the schemes that thought Aaron have to build up the digital capacity of our attractions, of our offerings right around the country. That would be very important. And I think with all that work together with getting the cap lifted and double in airport would increase seats, which are really important competitively come into our country. We will be in a better space. Now, I was standing that every nice day, you know, I understand international uncertainty. It is very significant and, you know, we're trying to combat that as well. I'm with her strategic air access fund. You know, we're reversing some decisions that were made in pulling, you know, key personnel out of locations. What I'm saying now is where we have new routes. We're putting boots on the ground with tourism around to try and sell them to market them. And with a lot of 23 routes in our to market that we're trying to grow and expand, which would be very important. We obviously have new direct flight to Singapore again, critically important. Obviously, the goal is going to be very challenged, but I still put our resources into the goal of putting them back in, everyone is here because I'm taking a longer term view that, you know, we have to work on the ground to take the opportunity when obviously this conflict passes. So it's important to be forward thinking and setting our end as best we can. And in terms of accommodation, the Airbnb issue is another area of controversy. Are you happy with the proposed amendments that have been made to that legislation in terms of the town population limits and so on? Yeah, I'm happy with the limits. I think 20,000 is a reasonable limit that does capture areas. First of all, there is opportunity to bring into longer term rental, but critically, along the west coast and other areas, and indeed the Midlands and in Leetrum and areas that, as I said earlier on, that it's not viable to deliver hotel. It is so, so important that we have accommodation there to absorb the opportunity that there is for tourism. And we don't want, you know, towns and villages to suffer because of that. So I think 20,000 will capture that. I think that's a good vision. Now I'm trying to work with, because people sometimes mistake to think I'm bringing all in all these rules. My direct responsibility is to bring forward a register where full-channel would be to complement authority and we will just be registering people on that and obviously that will dictate what platform they can advertise and wants their planning compliant. But planning is a part of housing. I want to strike a balance in a number of areas. Number one, I want to ensure that if you have a property that's part of a farm yard or part of a cartilage that's not suitable for the long-term market that you exempt. Number two, that's of about two years odd to regularize your position. Number three, that if you're under 20,000 and you're operating for seven years, that you can have a grandfather clause to bring you into a system that I won't, you know, swamp the local authorities with planning applications because we're short of planners and there's big challenges trying to get applications through the system and so many areas that can be hired to get planning. So I don't want to make it, you know, only make as simple as possible to get through the system for that. And obviously if you're over 20,000, the bar is higher. Obviously it will be very difficult to get planning because that's going to be the rules. We want to bring doors into a long-term accommodation. That will be the modest app around the effortless section. So I'm trying to achieve a lot, which is how I'm planning law, so it's just taking a little bit of time to work through those parameters. But I'm hopefully, you know, if I don't please anyone, everyone, I'm probably doing okay on it. And I'm probably in that position at the moment where everyone won't be pleased, but definitely I'm very mindful of keeping accommodation in some of those areas that badly need it and you can't deliver a hotel in. You mentioned the Dublin Airport cap. What is the status of that at the moment legally? So currently there's an injunction which has been taken, that hasn't been ruled upon just yet. So it's been lifted at this point in time. And in the meantime, obviously Minister Darryl Brian has come in for legislation, essentially, which will rescind the condition back in 2007 by finger County Council essentially based on traffic to the airport and capacity in relation to the roads. And obviously allow us in a position to lift the cap formally. That won't be without risk. And anyone that tells you it's a simple journey, we know implanting there are no simple journeys. So we have to be careful. It's taking a bit of time to craft. And obviously, the minister will be making himself to designate authority for it. And that won't be without challenge. So we have a bit of a road to go yet, but the legislation is progressing quickly now. And hopefully we'll be in a position to have it done this year, because that'll be very important. Okay, yeah, I assume your fellow Mullingar native or at least in habitant would like to see that happening ASAP. Yeah, I think we all like to see it happening to be fair, because I mean, we are an island economy. And you know, aviation has a long way to go on technology yet. So we can't just cut ourselves off as an island in terms of when I say it has a long way to go. I mean, in sustainability, there's a lot of research to have to form course and to be put into operation as of yet. But as an island economy, we survive on trade. We survive on the movement of people in an out of Ireland. Our digitist economy has about 300,000 people employed as an all island basis right across our country in the most rural parts of our economy and are so so important and depend on our largest indigenous sector on people coming to our country. So we have to ensure that we do resolve this issue. And it's one which has taken very seriously by government to do just that. I do a lot of work in the SME sector, particularly retail hospitality. And the you know, the feedback one gets about the cost environment, minimum wage, the move towards a living wage, insurance costs, energy costs, auto enrollment. And you look at auto enrollment, you look at the minimum wage increase and so on. And from a social perspective, very, very positive and beneficial. But they all do impose a cost on business, particularly small businesses, and particularly in retail and hospitality. You mentioned the SME test being now it's been taken on board. What exactly is that going to entail? So the SME test is essentially looking at any regulation, any statutory instrument, any piece of legislation has to have an impact assessment carried out on it before it is passed by the cabinet. So the cabinet will have this essentially as a standard template on every memo to adjudicate Tink small first. What impact does it have on our small businesses right across our country? So we've had 33 instruments gone through it and already since it's been brought into the cabinet handbook. And that's where we have to continue on. Look at impact on small business. And I'm too cutely aware. I know I had a you know a decision on my desk when I come into abolished sub minimum rates. So essentially you would mean someone 16 years of age would get the same as someone who is working in the sector for a number of years in retail. And we have to be so careful on this that you know you develop your career. You have learnings when you start off on the workforce, you have training to develop how you interact in a working environment. And you could cut off the lifeblood of our corner shops or small villages by you know making decisions of everyone having an equivalent minimum wage. There are sub minimum rates there for reasons. And I went against the trend and the pressure to do just that to hold firm on the status quo. And I'm very aware look at we all know look at the CSO the goals standard. There's 13 sectors measured in the Irish economy and in their publication December all 13 sectors are growing. The first you know strong sign that we've real wage growth across the economy. Obviously now we've challenges as we go forward into this year with inflation etc. But we have to keep in cost down from employers because you know if we lose viability we're all the challenges they have true as you would quite rightly know in relation to auto enrollment and the changes there in which you know a very significant cost for employers to we have to be so careful that we don't start putting people out of business by government decisions. And that's why you know I'm very much in favor of center location. I'm working in changing the business model because your traditional businesses you know they're on the high street now you know you can't just keep giving the money like we did through you know power up and various different bullet payments. That does some work that's only a sticking plaster. You need to try and change the model the operator on how do you do that you number one trimer dooster costs. That's what we're doing with small energy efficiency grants to you know give 75% of the capital cost of you know upgrading your lighting, tally delights, your refrigeration, your kitchens etc. Or you try and bring in more revenue looking at digitalization trying to support them on revenue growth. And that's what we've really focused on over the last number of months getting away from the sticking plaster to looking at more medium to longer term horizon how you bring viability and as well as controlling costs which is so so important. And I'm relentless on this any memo aimed at tamed to come before me the first question I always ask what does this mean for business you know how much cost is this going to put on business because too often my predecessors didn't do that and that's one thing I think we need to be you know crystal clear on to keep the economy growing and to keep you know job growth and ensuring that people have their opportunity in life because I also know my political philosophy is you know a job is the best opportunity for someone to realize their ambition in life you know lifelong education and also a job gives you you know ground all limits then when you when you're supported in that regard. Peter you mentioned the culinary aspect of tourism and how it's become a significant part of strategy for tourism. Two things certainly strike me coming out of well the life Mirakami, in the midst of the latest crisis we're facing globally, energy security and food security. I think both of those are just becoming more and more relevant and important. And you've mentioned the ambitions on the renewable energy side. On the food side, Ireland is an incredibly successful food producer. 90% of the food we produce is exporters, 19 billion in exports to food and beverages last year. But we had comments from your former party leader at the weekend on a Matt Cooper podcast, having a goal as rural Ireland basically and farming, I guess specifically, and was basically one of his key points was that what was good for farming wasn't necessarily good for the nation. So how did you react to that? Well, I was shocked to see that first of all, you know, I was a back venture in the government that Leo was teaching in his first government. And I remember him bringing in Michael Ring as Minister for Rural Affairs. He gave Rural Affairs a voice at Cabinet. And I have him policy really incentivized towards looking after the rural economy. And many of your listeners will know the work that Michael Ring did in a header Humphreys hundreds of millions of euros into very rural economies. I was there when Richard Brute was appointed by Leo to ensure that every household, no matter how remote, got high speed fiber optic broadband. And that was again looking at, you know, the lifeblood of an economy is broadband. I remember we were fought too to nail on that decision by our current government partners and also by some very senior civil servants. But we were brave and we took that decision. And if we hadn't, could you imagine through COVID, the pressured economy would have been under, we were working in other demands if we hadn't taken that decision as a government, which was a brave decision to take. So as a country, we produce enough food to feed about 50 million people, which is an incredible statistic. When you consider, as you point out, we export 90% of what we produce. And rural Ireland more than pays and washes its face. I have no doubt in that. I have no doubt that the government, who was brought up in a small family, soccer firm, and Mullen Gare, seeing that when soccer farmers get their and sell their produce once a year, all goes back into local economy. Between people selling food, stuff, and hardware, and grain machinery, vets, everything, all goes back into rural economy. So I couldn't disagree more with the comments. And it's almost, it's a very, to be fair to Leo, the policies he pursued were very much supporting rural Ireland. I hope people will see from the two examples I gave were two very prominent ones in supporting them. Part of your thoughts on the recent protests, I mean, I heard you in the media, but for our listeners, just like you two, Chris and myself, we basically took a pretty anti-protest review, and we weren't terribly complimentary either about the package that was put in place. But anyway, that's a government decision. We're economists, not politicians. We don't have to get reelected. So it's a cross. It's all very interesting. Sometimes I do think that, you know, you could have the best vision or the best policy, but if you don't get public support for us, it's of no value. So you have to, you know, look at what will work politically and what's good for the country. And you have to try and get the best of both if you can. But how would the protests was shot by the misinformation? That was propagated online. And bought up by some very intelligent people, which chopped me. Number one, I was horrified at those TDs in the dolls, saying that the government was profiteering from the feud crisis, off the backs of Howard-Broken Families Across the country. When we know what that's plainly not true, people misleading the cost of diesel, outlined in terms of, you know, no matter what cost diesel goes, excise remains the same. It's static. The carbon taxis static. It's a ton. The noralevi is static on a doesn't move. And the idea that the only thing that moves is that. And the commercial sector reclaimed that that after revenue commissioner. So the only move that the government got extra revenue from was essentially the non-commercial sector. And that was a drop in the ocean compared to the income sacrifice by abolishing the noralevi and reducing quite significantly excise and bringing in a scheme for our hauliers, the D.R.S. which increased by about 60%. So those falls misleading narratives, get people angry. And we didn't challenge them enough. I think we have to learn from that to get facts out there. And secondly, this idea of a cap, you know, talk about writing a blank check saying to number one, we're moving the bill from the forecourt over to the taxpayer. And, you know, people that were propagating that have no idea how a business works. Because if you think I did accounts for over a decade, and I know that small philanthropist stations across our country, you're there operating a margin, a gross margin of five, six percent on fuels. Could you imagine if it was a cap in, they had to carry, because it's demand led, it would be paid in a rears. If they had to carry from a cash flow point of view even that, you put them all out of business overnight. So not only would you to start the market, you put a huge amount of people out of business, and you'd end up going billions in terms of debt on the government, and again, any country that brought a cap in, like that's been proposed, the common trade was the IMF, IMF or in shortly afterwards. And we've over a decade ago experienced that, we don't want to do it again. So we have to get a sustainable approach, and look at, you know, I think we have to keep our powder dry as a ton of she was saying to us, be careful, you know, looking ahead, because it's important that we keep, you know, repaying our debt, that's critical. We've brought it down by around 40 points since the pandemic. It's important that we put money aside for our future shocks. If this government runs this term out between our two sovereign wealth funds, we have about 40 billion put by. And thirdly, I always think of the big tree, keep investing in capital expenditure. We really spend about 19 billion in capital expenditure this year. That's up about 58% in two years. And if we keep doing those tree things, and not deviate from them, the country will be in a good position to absorb shocks, I believe, and hopefully that by investing heavily in cap-x, we do attract more investment into the economy. And make us as more efficient. And, you know, we also have to look at, you know, we've grown, I think when I came into government back in 2016, our budget was around, what, 70 odd billion. It's around 118 billion now. But how does our services improve by that metric? Did our public service improve? And we all know the answer to that. So we need a lot more reform. And that's one of the things maybe we haven't worked hard enough on is reforming how we deliver our public services. And that's something I'm trying to do in terms of, if it's a small leo office, you know, giving us the sustainability grants. You know, we've reduced the questions of some of the regulation and very significant. And I actually have to keep doing a war on simplification, getting things more simpler, lighter and faster and to business users. Finally, Peter, I think I've taken up enough of your time at this stage. But ahead of budget's 2027, you know, what are your key priorities within your department? So obviously we'd have to work as hard as we can to incentivize investment. So start up Ireland will be a big actor in that. A big statement for our Indigenous economy. Helping companies to grow, to scale, ensure that we are at the centre of innovation right on the forefront of that curve. Encourage in my counterpart across government on the finance side in relation to entrepreneurship and investing. How we can make the capital gains tax code more conducive to that? Particularly watching our neighbours because they have improved their regime quite significantly. So we have to watch that. And very closely. I would also be very much aware that budget 2026 was an enterprise budget. We have to fuel the engine room every once in a while. Maybe every five or six budgets needs a big refueling. That comes at a cost to workers. And I think over the next number of budgets, we have to try and ensure that they're getting income tax package and getting more of the money back. Because if we look at the first part where we've grown tax receipts by about 3.5% between income tax growing, back growing, we know the story with corporate taxes. Incredible at the moment. But it is a risk in itself as we are quite rightly know. But if we stick to the big tree areas I mentioned, I think that will help us on that risk. But we keep growing our taxes essentially. We need to, and keep our economy growing, which will be a challenge now over the next number of months. Then we need to give people more of the money back. Because that's important for cohesion as well as society. Okay, listen Peter. Thank you very much for your contribution today. I really enjoyed it. I hope our listeners do. I'm sure they will. So Peter Borkman is the first enterprise tourism employment. I'd like to thank you very much for your contribution. And listen to the very best to look over the coming months. They won't be easy in politics, but keep it going. Okay, it's important. Thank you. Thanks Jim. And thanks for your time.