Pod. 329 Nadia Habibie TALKS ABOUT CARRYING THE WILL OF "HABIBIE"

- Who is Nadia without the happy bee? - Oo! - What was your grandfather's priority then? Was it family? Was it the nation? - Before he became vice president, he was thinking of prioritizing my grandmother. - Who was he? - And the reason why I wanted to move to government is because I wanted to do something a little bit more impactful and understand what policy making is and it's really hard. - Speaking of the space and the library itself, - Tidak ada buku tenang tehni di sana. - Karena memang sebetulnya, teknokrasinya eang atau keakhliannya eang di bidang teknologi, itu di dasario oleh nilai-nilai kemanusiaan. - Wow. - Intellectuality, spiritualism, and love. - Wow, that's amazing. - Do you feel like today, you will have a responsibility to contribute to Indonesia in a holy way? - Ladies and gentlemen, this is your host, Yes, Lawrence. Nadia Sofia, happy bee. Di kenal sebagai cucu, dari president ketiga dari publik Indonesia. - Bahabibi. - Dan ibu negara Buainen. - Dia juga di eksikatif director di hubi bian Aynun Foundation dan eksikatif board di hubi bisinta. - Ada banyak hubi bian. - In that introduction. - Nadia. - Who is Nadia without the hubi bian? - Oh. - That's a very good question. - Very good first question. - Mungkin aku juga harus bahas. Apa namanya kayak secara timeline gitu ya kan? - Go ahead. - From what '92? - '92. - You want to start from there? - No, not really. Because I don't remember '92. - Ingatan pertama gue ya, mungkin diusia 5-6 tahun, biasanya kalau gue di apa namanya di introduce, oleh kedua orang tua aku, atau yang aku pasti pertanyaan pertama adalah, "Oh, kamu suka engineering, atau mau jadi engineer?" - That's actually true. - Mau jadi doktor kayak Aynun. Dan waktu itu, aku nggak tau ya, sebetulnya, karena masih usia 5 tahun juga gitu. And I'm very different from my grandfather. I wasn't born with a dream or vision, you know, I was just born, right? And maybe that's what many people are like. - Yeah. Tapi pertanyaan itu selalu mengikuti aku, sampai sekarang pun mungkin ya. Oh, suka science? Dan di detik pertama itu, pasti aku akan selalu mengacai orang-orang gitu, karena aku bukan seperti orang-orang. Mungkin aku suka orang-orang. - Ya, aku hanya akan bilang. - Ya. - Dan jadi, itu sangat bagus, untuk aku bukan orang yang semua orang yang menunggu karena ketika kamu, kamu di dalam keluarga, kamu di dalam keluarga, tapi bukan 5 tahun. Aku bukan, apa itu yang ini terjadi di saat 5 tahun? - Mungkin, itu adalah satu question, atau mereka akan membuat saya, insya Allah, bisa menjadi insya Allah, atau doktor seperti yang kamu, ya, itu ya, kan? Dan sebetulnya ini adalah dua-dua, yang memang nggak ada niat buruk gitu ya. Nggak ada gitu, tapi memang untuk seorang anak kecil, dan, gue cucu pertama, anak pertama gitu, ya, itu yang lumayan banyak seimpreshernya. - And did I been finance, eh? - Well, yes, that as a scale, but I think this is something that I learned and I never really practiced right, so I wouldn't say I'm a finance person, ya, kan? Tapi, dan memang sebetulnya apa yang aku pelajari itu, sesuatu yang di suggest oleh kedua orang tua aku, ya, kan? Karena mereka merasa, ya, aku butuh keren kayaan teknis untuk bisa solve problems, solve life problems, dan sejujurnya gitu, aku sangat berterima kasih juga bahwa, karena waktu itu, saya nggak tahu juga what my passion is, ya, kan? Jadi, cara menghadapi hidup itu dengan keren kayaan sangat pragmatis. Nah, apa tuh keren kaya-keren kayaan sangat pragmatis, biasanya ekonomi, biasanya kuangan, kita ya, karena ujujurnya duit, biasanya ya, kalau bisnis atau kita melakukan apapun, dan, ya, aku bersyukur banget sejujurnya gitu, karena sekarang, aku memang masih berexperimen dengan passion aku, tapi aku juga melihat bahwa, oh keren kakeren kakak pragmatis itu, ternyata applicable juga nih, untuk apa yang aku inginkan sekarang, ya, kan? Kalau di ekonomi, misalnya, it's all about, ya, ya, making sure that you are efficient with the most limited resources, ya, ya, kan? And that's also an engineering framework, ya, how can you optimize with the limitations that you have, ya, ya, kan? With financing, how, ya, essentially, how can you get financing? Because Indian everything does need, ya, ya, the resources for it to grow flourishing, be sustainable, right? So, I'm very happy that my parents were very pragmatic, at the time, kalau boleh jujur, banyak rasa, ini ya, sedikit, ketidak nyamanan, karena aku merasa, oh, this is not me, ya, ya, karena aku tuh memang, sebetulnya lumayan kreatif, ya, itu orangnya. Waktu aku SMP, misalnya aku tuh join drama class, ya, ya, ya, kan? I did. I really liked being someone else on stage. Well, I can't see that. I cannot see that. I stopped that, but I realized that it has made me who I become today, ya, ya, ya, kan? Being on stage, ya, ya. Being on stage, ya, ya, ya. And what, none, that's something that Aang is also very, a huge proponent, ya, ya. Ya, ya, ya. Aang hari itu, ah, dia kalau misalnya kasih pidato, gitu, ya, sangat ekspresif, kalau pakai baju, gitu, ya, sangat, dan dia, dan dia melihat sangat bagus. Dia melihat sangat bagus. So, he understands that, ya, ya, kan? Dan dia menggunakan itu supaya komunikasi dia sampaik. Ya, ya. Jadi, substansinya ada, tapi deliverinya juga menggunakan yang aku sebut art, sebetulnya, itu. Ada itu. Well, still, masih 80% of what you said, you mentioned your father and your grandfather, lah. Ya. But that's because you can't escape from them, right? Obviously, gitu. But when you're home, gitu, who are you? Like, you're just a mother, gitu, ya. Oh, ya, so I have one kid, two years old. Yeah. He's very special. At home, I love you, ask this question, ya. Any penting banget, buat perempuan-perempuan, apalagi kita sekarang ada di minggu. Kartini, ya. Oh, that's right, ya. Menurut aku penting sekali, untuk perempuan-perempuan tahu mereka mau jadi siapa, gitu. Karena apalagi, kalau mereka mau kerana publik, karena kalau nggak, the market will determine who you will become. That is true. And it's always a dichotomy. Saluh di kotomi. It's a working mother or stay at home mother, you know? Well, yeah, also keep in mind that constitution was built by Matt. It is. So we live in a system that is not designed for us, ya. But back at home, I'm a beta. You run the household? Well, I share actually responsibilities with my husband. So we have a PMO sheet. You take care of this, I take care of this. No, you don't. You do. I do. To make it fair. Because otherwise, these responsibilities, actually by default, will go to women, you know? What's, what's, tell me the PMO sheet? What's, what's in my PMO sheet? For instance, okay, PMO by the way, means project management. Oh, stands for officer. But essentially, it's how you delegate tasks, right? So, for instance, I take care of my kids' education. My husband takes care of extra curriculars. My husband takes care of groceries. And he takes care of electronics. Because that's his thing. I take care of, you know, managing maids and babysitters. Man, I sound very, Abana Mania privileged, ya. But, um, yeah, I am aware of my privilege. A lot of households have maids and babysitters. That's true. That's true. And I'm very thankful. Not only because you're the third. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Choo, choo, choo, choo. Um, but I'm not sure if it's good to make it fair. So, I feel fair. And he understands his responsibilities as a father and as a husband. Of course. And I'm not sure if it's good. I actually agree. I agree. Yeah. Well, I've listened to lots of your conversations online. Then, uh, quite a portion of it talked about your imposter syndrome. Mm. Um, and I realized that there's a lot of things that are looking at you right now. You're at peace with it. You're no longer that. What's that? Uh, Is that the word? Is that the word? Is that the word? Shadow. Yeah, but the little, you know, you need, um, I was always aware about the fact that I, my family is not normal. Right? Like, I was born by grace of God, by coincidence, into this family. Mm. And I always asked why me. Mm. But I asked why me because I felt so undeserving of it. I, yeah, we got it. I was in my grandfather. Right? And I am not even now. I'm not even my grandmother. I'm not even my father. I'm not even my mother. You know, who am I, right? And it takes time to actually get to know you, especially when everyone tries to dictate you. Especially also as a woman, you know. Yeah, I am. It's, it's a lot of layers and layers. And, you know what? I'm very happy that my parents give me a lot of freedom, right? To explore. It's very important to experiment and to explore. But I have to create my own sandbox. My own sandbox was in Bandung. Yeah, you spent, yeah. And. And. And. And. And. And it was such a happy childhood, you know. People were a lot laid back there. They're less transactional. Of course, they knew who we were and they were extremely proud and whatnot. But they were very laid back and. There is a different game that you play there, you know. In Jakarta, it's a very different game. It's a more transactional here, you know. But that didn't last long. And the transition was quite drastic from Bandung. Because from Bandung, you went to the palace. From Bandung, there was a time where we went to the palace and we went back, actually, to Bandung. And you went back, right? So I only moved to Jakarta, tahun 2007. 2007, I went back to Jakarta. So I went back to SMA. So, remind me again, in the late '98, where were you, Bandung? I was still in Bandung. All the whole family, not going back to Jakarta. No, but it was only one or two days ago. Because I was very. It was a very conducive situation. It was really safe for both of us, like in the Eastana. I still remember that memory. I was too young, to be honest with you. So I didn't really understand context. And of course, I remember my own context. I was very happy because I was very happy. What I remember was that I was still very happy. I was 6 years old. I just thought I went to a palace, like a princess. I suddenly was a princess, because it was so beautiful. But it was only short-lived, right? And then I remembered I was at home a lot, looking at the TV. At the time, I was Jakarta, actually. We were in Jakarta. I was at home. My mother and my father was looking at the news. And I didn't understand these really scary images. It was the riots, obviously, but not. But I didn't understand. But as a short-tist serving president in Indonesia, he did quite a lot, and you get to witness that as a kid. Well, I did not witness that as a kid, because I was never there during these official meetings. But I would witness that in dinner tables when my grandfather would tell stories. And my grandfather is a very proud man. Of course, very well deserved, right? But everyone was like, let's talk about something else. You know what I mean? Because I think we wanted him as well as a normal grandfather and as a normal father. Was he not? He was. But he's also the president. He was the president, right? And he loved talking about his legacy. But at the time-- and I think this was also my grandmother. I'm also going to be very frank about this. They bickered a lot, right? My grandmother, of course, she was very willing to be able to support him behind the scenes and whatnot. But she, too, wanted some room for her to say something about herself or about others. And so she would sometimes tell my grandfather, hey, can it not be you all the time? And that's a very normal thing. You know, I don't think my grandfather meant-- Wow. --bad, right? Yeah. But it was his show, right? And we understood that. And that's when you know the family identity, his identity, which became the family identity was really big, right? I mean, for me, we are at peace with it. And we, Abana Mania, it is totally well deserved for him to be that prideful, right? We don't think it's narcissistic. It's because he's just so proud. But I also understand my grandmother who wanted some room to breathe, you know? And so that's also something that I'm quite mindful in my relationship, maybe going back to your question, who am I at home? At home, I don't really like to talk about myself. At home, I want to be more-- I want to be in bedtime stories. I read bedtime stories. So yesterday, I went to a very glamorous event. And then I realized, oh, I still have time to be able to get back home just in time to tell bedtime stories to my son. And so I took the MRT station so that I could be on time. Because when you're on studio, you're never know how long you're going to be. And I think people were looking at-- Speaking of sitting right here, we are. Or here we are. And I think people working at me weird. Because I was literally-- you can see in my Instagram-- I was wearing this long dress. I was wearing flats. But I was like, you know what? I don't care. I want to be back at home. I want to be there for my son. I want to tell him a bedtime story because I want him to have this value of being curious and wanting to learn. And I think that's so important. You have to be able to instill it in him. And it is disciplined for you to instill in things. Is he your priority? He is, of course, my priority, right? What was your grandfather's priority then? Was it family? Was it the nation? It was-- wow. That is a very good question. I think, you know, if you are that high, you always have to have trade-offs, right? There's only one priority. His priority was both, but for different times. So at times, it was the nation, right? And he had a very supporting infrastructure to be able to carry his familial duties, right? My father, for instance, was in Germany, actually, when he became minister. So my grandfather, when he moved back to Jakarta, my father didn't actually come with him. He stayed in Germany. And he stayed, actually, in Abana Mania, kayak host family. He did. He did. He did. That's why he's so German. Yeah. Come on. He's so German. Wait. Didn't you have a place in Germany? Yes, we do. But when your father in Germany-- He was only 15 at the time. He needed to actually have a family. Guardian. Yeah. I always have these talks with him. And he's always-- he actually, Deito-- very humble, actually, for who he is. And I think he even said that a lot of these teachings he got from his German host family, actually. Oh, that's so sweet. Because, of course, he also had his privileges there. If you're in Germany at the time, you have to have some sort of resource. But not everybody knows who he is, right? Are you good friends with his host families? Oh, my fault. I do, I do. It's Deito. And I don't know the others. Very terrible. Because he was-- yeah. Deito is his-- so basically, I think his family or his host parents had three children. One of them was his age. And that guy, his name is Deito. Deito. And so we still meet him from time to time when we're in Germany. Same professions. I don't know, actually, a good question. Oh, wow. Interesting. So that's actually my question here. What was your father's relationship with senior, with how he would be senior? That's friends. Really? Yeah. I would assume-- But they never say it to each other. It's really strange. See, I would assume with very similar backgrounds, with very similar engineering. There would be a little bit of tension and ideologies, although, at the end, engineering is finding solutions to a problem. My father is an engineer. He loves it. I think he also loves diplomacy. I don't think he would say this out loud, because he doesn't notice it. But I know he's very good with diplomacy. And I think it's always because he's very international. He always sees a lot of new people. And I think he has the sweet spot with using an engineering mindset for diplomacy. So I think, in a way, that's his sweet spot. My grandfather is very different than him. And you know what? I just learned, as well, from my father, that my grandfather actually gave him space to grow, as well. Of course, there were some expectations, with being family and whatnot, and perhaps the engineering side of it as well. But he gave him space to grow. And I think the fact that my father was in Germany with his host family, that also created that space for him, which was so needed. And so that's why I think my father, up until today, he always tells me, you need to have your foot on the ground. Sure. And I see that when I was in Germany, and that's when I was in the big world, with my father and mother. My father was still super market, in the study, and so on. And if he had the name Monarobarang, that's in the bagassie, he would have done that in the study. And if there were other people, he could have done that. And so on. My mother still knew that she was a child. And so on. But that's what it is. So that's why she's very much in the same way as electronics. So if she's a child, she's an electronic doctor. She's just like a child, a salesperson. This is a technology that's like a human being. I'm not talking about a human being. And because he has an obsessive character. He's fascinated. He has an obsessive character, right? And so for him, he collected a lot of iPods at the time. He had to always have the newest iPod. My grandfather. iPod. iPod. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He doesn't exist now. So I'm sorry, Jensy, you might not understand, right? What iPod is. Does everyone understand? I understand. Yeah, I understand. iPod doesn't have a back case. So he would probably open it up. And he would open it. And he would like, no, yeah, what's your song? He wants to know my song. So then I'm like, oh, I like Beyonce. I like J-Lo, right? And then he would just be like, you know, Javin. He was always into music, eh? Always. That's his way to concentrate. So if he wants to focus time and focus time, he's just from 11 AM to 3 AM. So he's just a blessed classical music. And what I mean by a blessed, blessed, he's like a concert, right? And don't forget his unforgettable. Unforgettable. That's what you want. That's one of his Jams, isn't it? It's my jam with him. So after he passed away, that was actually the first song that I played. and yeah I just did a slow dance with my brother. - Oh, actually. - Yeah. - Chilling. While I was on the topic of them, what do you tell your, well I know it's quite difficult to talk to it through your old right now. (laughs) To say in a year or two. - Right, right, right. - He never saw the myth of legend. - True. - What are you gonna talk about? - That's a good question. What would I say? What would I say? - I think I would say that he has made so many people happy and lucky, oh not lucky, but lived a much more comfortable and dignified. How do you say dignified to a two year or three, four year old? A happy and comfortable life, right? - Yeah. - People that he might not know. - But I also want-- - We're talking about the nationwide, you know. - We're talking about the nationwide, you know? And this kind of breaks my heart right? Because when my grandfather was around, I took him for granted to be honest with you. You know, I mean, I saw him as my grandfather, but I think I didn't really want to see him as this historical figure because it would just ignite my insecurities more, right? That I was next to this living genius. - Got it. - You know, once in a lifetime generation and I could never live up to him or his wife. And now that they're no longer here and I'm discovering their story, I would have taken our dinner conversations much more seriously, you know? And I would have asked them so many more questions. Because I think I've taken him for granted for even the things that are not visible that we see today. The fact that we can do this podcast. - Yeah. - It's because of him, a part of it, right? - One of them first. - One of them is on balance, yeah. The fact that we could choose our president is because of him. The fact that there are more checks and balances, right? And that power is distributed is because of him. - Yeah. - And that is a privilege that not other countries may have, you know? - Yes. And you're doing some extra miles here, Nadia. I mean, running the whisper is not something easy. And the thing is, it's not about being easy or not. I don't think it's necessary. - And you're very keen in doing it. This face itself, I know it's not open for public but the way you introduce me to it, the way you're very proud of it and you know, invite all these people and talk about it. I see that shine in your eyes when you do that. So I think he's gonna be proud of you. - Thank you. - I think that's my way of justifying, right? - Like, hey, look at me now, kind of. - No, like, I'm sorry. - No. - No, don't be. - Sorry. - But I'm sorry and I'm grateful, you know? - Yeah. - Oh. - We did talk a little bit about how you ended up in finance, you know? - I didn't, I didn't. - You didn't, you didn't. - It was something that I studied, right? But then afterwards, yeah, and FinTech and Finance is very different, by the way, right? So I was actually in operations in a FinTech company called ZenDit. - Yes. - I loved my journey there. I honestly joined because I loved the people that I was working with and I knew I could learn loads and the person who I was working for didn't want to use me for my last name. She saw me, you know, and that was so expensive to me and she even taught me to fight for my salary increase. - Really? - She's like, "Women ever ask this? So I'm gonna let you negotiate with me what you think you're worth." - Wow. - And I thought that was so powerful and she's still my elder sister now. So I still have a necklace from her right beneath this. - Oh wow. - Yeah. - Well, you've had, despite your grandfather, even your father, your mother, grandmother, you've had multiple of mentors. - Yes. - Right? Well, you want to mention them and what are their - Yeah. - The back of the year life. - Oh, so much. Thank you so much for asking because, you know, I think I am an agame, amalgamation of many people that I meet, right? - Yeah. - And I think the people that I look up to, I'm quite intentional with them because I want to work for someone I respect. First of all, my father always told me that you need to work for someone who's not family so you know how to work. And that is truly important, right? - Yeah. - Because otherwise, you would always get leeway for working with your family, right? And so I spent seven years essentially, which is not that long, but it was seven very intense years. (laughing) Yeah, if you're watching this, it was so much pain, but love at the same time. So, descended, yeah. Any lie, yeah, if you work for a startup, apalagi, I was the 32nd employee there. - Yeah. - Yeah, zero to one, too. - And line line, but you just have to keep the lights on and you, you know, you were so many different hats, but it's so exciting to build something, you know. I realized I was like, oh, I get, I get an excitement if I build something. - Yeah. - And because that's how I feel like I make my mark here, you know. - Well, let's not forget the face when you were very, very focal. You're still is about climate change and being in, which ministry were you in? - I was in Kemenko, Marfest. So the coordinating ministry of maritime affairs and investments, yeah. So after four years and Zen did, I then moved to the coordinating ministry. So Ben, things like the area, the Mata Man, Gato, Bengla, a part of the reason why is because my grandfather passed away and that's when I realized, hey, you know what, I think I'm, my chapter here in Zen, it is probably coming to an end because I think they can survive without me, you know. - Yeah. - So for me, time is always a constraint. I wanted to make sure that at the time, am I solving for a very important problem that not many other people are looking into, right? It's always a trade off and I realized, no, Zen did is doing well. And I was a 32nd employee. After four years, it was 800 people big. We were a unicorn and I thought, okay, they could hire someone. - Time to start. - You know what, I'm good, Gidea Khan. But I still remain in touch with them. Some of them are really my best friends, right? Because we just went through so much together. And then I decided, okay, - Before you, sorry to cut your copy. Was there anyone in the family that was against the political practice, Gidea? - It's not politics, all of you. - Go ahead. - Because I was part essentially of the working team, Gidea Khan. I came in as a professional, not as-- - Was anyone concerned? - They were always like, just make sure, you know, you were there to support but not make decisions. - Go ahead, 'cause I was just gonna say, - Actually, it wasn't the family who told me, 'cause I think the family's pretty chill to be frank with you, you know? - Yeah. - I just like, before I made the jump, I had a couple of mentors and I asked, how do we structure this so that I get the most out of my learning without having the risk? 'Cause there is always risk, right? And they mentioned a couple of things, you know? And then I was like, okay, I understand, I understand, I understand, Gidea Khan. - Yeah. - I was like, I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do that, I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do that. I understand, I understand, I understand, Gidea Khan. And that's actually a really important thing. If you want to do something new, always reach out to people, right? - Of course, I agree. - Always reach out to people that know better than you and ask them, what are the frameworks that you can copy? - Yeah. - Right? Because it's not about the knowledge sometimes. It's about the framework, the decision making frameworks that actually, you can actually bring to this new set, right? And that's why I appreciate actually my father, my mother pushing for those pragmatic frameworks, right? - Good point. And the reason why I wanted to move to government is because I wanted to do something a little bit more impactful and understand what policy making is. And it's really hard. I'm so hard. I'm so happy I did it, you know, because. - What were you gonna change then? What was one policy? - To be honest with you, I was actually open for anything. The reason why is because I didn't know my passion. - Oh, God. - But I wanted to work for an effective ministry, an effective minister, right? Because I wanted to see things going. So it was really important for me to know who I worked for. First of all, if I could respect the person, if I could trust the person, and if the process actually, like if they actually can make breakthroughs. So for me, it was about who and how, right? And then the what followed later. - Understand. - And then the what actually is sustainability. - Yeah. - And that was all by accident. So it wasn't planned. - No, it wasn't planned. I didn't know I was going to, I didn't have any background in sustainability. - But didn't it come from the heart when you talk about sustainability? It was like, you know, because I accidentally got into it, right? So I worked for Bang Mamat or Bang Rahmat Kaimuddin, who was the ex CEO of Bugalapak. And he was the deputy of infrastructure and transportation. And he was just so gung-ho and confident about electric vehicles being the future, right? And it was something that Indonesia needed to capture. And I was like, I don't know anything about electric vehicles. - Yeah. - Yeah. I was his first hire. So and then over time became his chief of staff. And then I created essentially like a team to support him, right? - Yeah. - And one of the biggest Abana Mania projects was for us to be able to introduce electric vehicle incentives so that the market could flourish more and people could buy more and etc. etc. right? - You helped a lot of people including me. - Oh, you know you have it too? - Yeah, I got the, no you know what? No, I'm wrong. The incentive came after I bought the car. - Oh no. - It was like, but no. - Oh well, are you happy, right? - Yeah, I'm happy about it. Of course, you get a lot of savings right from it. - Yeah, of course. - I have it too now. Up in Amanya and it was my introduction to policy making, right? And then I realized, you know, this is such an existential problem, literally, you get the idea. And I'm someone who really cares about so many different causes. And then I just thought to myself, if we don't exist, how can anyone fight for these causes anymore? And so sustainability for me, personally for me, was like an umbrella, you know, cause. - Of many causes. - Because I just, it's like, oh, we need to exist so that there's someone fighting for education. There's someone fighting for women in parliament. - Yeah, but my question is, how did your father, how did your grandfather in two years span did 200 of them? - Oh. - Because you know how difficult it is, you know, just a couple of years ago, how policy making works, right? - Oh, how, you know, honestly, it's a bit like a, I wanna call it as like a beautiful accident, yeah? He was the only president without a vice president. I'm not I mean by the only president, he didn't have a vice president. At the time, he inherited a system that was very centralized, right? Because it wasn't dispersed yet. There were less checks and balances. - Yeah. - And he also had the capability of understanding how to push down agendas, because he was in government for 20 years. - Understand, so he was actually hands on and-- - He was, I mean, if you were in the government for 20 years, you know, oh, this is how you do it. This is how you do it. - But it. - Yep, these are, for instance, the regulatory products that we need, we need a kind of, we need a, we need a, we need a, we need a, we need a, whatever, whatever, right? So he knew how to essentially produce so many regulations because he did it when he was the minister of technology and research, right? And then at the same time, power at the time was centralized. - Yeah. - And of course, he is also a workaholic. He doesn't sleep. - A lot of above that. - Yeah. - If you read his, his book, his presidential, his book about his presidency, he often said he just didn't sleep. And how can you, you know, how can you? He had such a massive responsibility. By the way, he had no idea this was going to happen. Before he became vice president, actually he was thinking of prioritizing my grandmother. - What is he? - Because my grandmother was not well at the time. - Well, this was in 1998. - 1998. She wasn't well, he wanted to prioritize her because he also understood that his achievements was because of her in the behind the scenes and whatnot, right? But this time he wanted to prioritize her without knowing that he was going to be vice president. - Wow. - And my grandmother said, no, you have to do this. This is your duty. - Wow. Oh, that's amazing. So anyway, let's go back to you. So after you, so what happened when you realized that sustainability was something that you wanted to talk about? Was there finally a book about it that you wrote all of a sudden? - I thought. - So I read, well, first of all, it's this realization that, oh, actually it's an umbrella problem. And you know what, not many people are really prioritizing this. And you know why? Because it is a privilege problem. You can only think about sustainability. If you don't have to worry about food the next day. - That is true. - Right. - And if you think about food the next day, automatically, it is the system that has been carrying us all this far. And that system uses fossil fuels. It clears land, you know, and a bomb, and all that, right? So it is a privilege problem. And I realized that this is something almost like smoking, right? Actually, this is not what I realized. This is Bung Mama's word, you know? Nadia, it's like smoking. It's like you don't realize it is toxic until it's too late. - True. - So someone has to fight for it, right? - Yeah. - I read, "How to Avoid a Climate Crisis" by Bill Gates. - Yeah. - Amazing. And maybe because he comes from an entrepreneurial background, tech background, his language made sense to me. He made the book so actionable. And that was Gimanehaka. It was game changing for me. And I thought, hey, we need to do this for Indonesia. And maybe for the youth because they are the ones that should manifest the future. - True. - And so that's why I, a bit of a self-promotion. Shameless promotion. Okay, there's two versions. Ding, ding, ding, ding. - That's not Shameless promotion. Here's the Shameless promotion. Put it here. - Put it here. Okay. Thank you. - That's a-- - That's much better. - Thank you guys. - So we have the yellow one, which is the English version, not available yet. But we have the blue one, that's the Indonesian version, available in Gramedia. - Also available in your grandfather's library. I saw. - Is? - Yes. But it's not open for public. - Is that? - Speaking of the space and the library itself, there's no book in this technique. - There are, but there's not much. - Oh, there are. - Not much. There's no more dominacy. There's no book that can be read. the human being. - Wow. And that's the books that they want other people to read. So, you know, I'm actually very open. This is also really important. I really, really appreciate it. - So I'm really open. - And that's the book that they want other people to read. This is also, you know, this is really, really, really important. - Wow. - Yeah. - You know, I'm actually very open. This is also open to open, open call, like, so you speak, right? If anyone wants to collaborate and making digitizing this library, I think it'll be very, very awesome. - Well, that's gonna take some time. Digitalizing is library. - Yeah, so that's why I was like, - Oh, yeah, somebody else could do that. - Let's try. - Well, you talked a little bit about that about how you, or even young, young, young people or influencers now can influence and, and redefine leadership. I think redefining leadership can also mean simplifying public policy or change, simplifying change, basically. Is that one of your aims now as an individual? - Mm, that's a very good question. Maybe let me take this a step back, yeah. - Hmm. - Philosophically, you know, maybe I would like to converse with you as well about this. When we think about government, right, the government, they have the influence to shape societies. - True. - Right? But are they the only society shapers? - No. - Who are the rest? - There's you. - Well, there's people out there. - There's people out there with social media. There's out there with people. - Exactly. - I think I want to give more power to the people, right? For them to realize that they actually are all agents of change and that they all can drive change in small-- - You sound like a president's group. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because, because this is the continuation of A.A.N.s legacy, right? He wanted to distribute that. He wanted to distribute power, but when you have power, there's responsibility, right? And I understand you know, there's so many people you know, with a voicing their concerns, right? And I'm very, very grateful that you are using your power to voice concerns, but if you also want to see change, you'd need to be the part of the solution, right? Sure. And I think, you know, sometimes people are often a little bit confused and baffled because there's almost an influx of information out there, right? And so when it comes to sustainability, I'm not saying this is the source of truth or like the only source of truth, but this could perhaps enrich, you know, what you can do, what you can voice your concern about, and what you can do about it, right? Even if you, like, the smallest unit in the country-- That's a true. --family's. And, okay, let me go back to women here because we are a Cartini week, Gideaacan. Go please. Okay, if we go to Gideaacan, you are the ones actually dictating our lifestyles, right? You are the one that's telling us, telling, you know, or dictating the family, which, well, car or motorcycle to buy, right? Or that could be a joint decision, but usually that's the case, right? Or how your house is, or your place of life, a living, Gideaac, is designed, how you use your electricity and whatnot. There's already so much power there, you know? Let me add to that, if I may. I think-- Yeah. [SPEAKING SPANISH] Which means-- Actually-- --a family can impact a nation. Because that's the most important thing for, you know, influence other people. I know. It starts there. Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKING SPANISH] So where does-- with my player role in this. - With my. - With my. - With my Ha-Vivi. I see it, okay, people see it perhaps as, you know, my grandfather's house, some sort of like, almost like a very, a palace, right? But I see it much more than that. Of course, it's such a beautiful place and whatnot. But it's also like a laboratory, you know? - Wow. - It's a laboratory of their values and their stories and how we can use those values and stories to create change now, right? And that's where I want to contribute in Wisma, is how can. Because I feel. I feel more appreciative and more activated somehow, you know? After getting to know them better. Because, by the way, the one who's a Ha-Vivi, he's a teacher. - I think what impressed me as well, Adela, the space given. the space was made for public. - The spirit of the space, yeah? - Yeah, the spirit of the space. - You saw the plaque, right? - The plaque, yeah. - That's why he was born as a president, right? - Exactly. - He was born in the village. - That's true, right? - Yeah, that's also one of the things that was made by one of my favorite. Because it's romantic, it's really. The name of the house is the same as the place. So, what's the problem with the house? So, I can give you guys context, right? Wisma, Habib, and Adela, is the fourth house, right? Well, there's a room number one, three, five, seven. Everything is a mess. One and three, it was bought by the year '1976. And then the rest. - Where did I go? Where did I go, too? - You saw the library, didn't you? Did you see the pendopo as well? - Yeah, it's the pendopo, right? - Okay, the pendopo is number three. - Oh, it's the three. - Yeah. So, the original room was the same as the pendopo. It was bought in the year '1976. So, the first and last, the story was. Yeah, right? That's exactly what happened in Wisma, Habib and I, about the year '1997. Why, that's a regulation, right? The one who started the president, the president's name, to get the name of the house, the service was different, right? As the president and the president's name. So, the president, the president, the president, and the president, the president, so that he can stand up. What's his name, Wisma, Habib and I, but from the president, he made the president, and the president, why did the spirit come back to Bangsa and the Indonesian country? And all of that, it was certain, - Yes. - Or more precisely, it was a lie. - Yeah. - I think what amazes me as well, the attention to details. - He is, yeah. - Of all of that. - That's also my grandmother. Oh, but my grandmother is here. So, this is her skirt. While I'm not using Batek today, I also still bring a bit of legacy. - Of course. - So, because she is the infrastructure to be Jeha, baby. - Yeah. - And I want to make sure that everybody knows that. - Oh, that's lovely. - Back to your question. - Yeah. - What did you say? - I actually have a different question. I don't think you've talked about this before. What was his take on national corruption? Was there ever a conversation about that? - I mean, other than. - It's bad. - Yeah, other than it's bad. No, I think it's just because he was just so fixated on technocratic solutions, right? But I think, you know, if he were here today, he would just be like, and this is also one of his legacies, right? Is to strengthen the institutions. - True. - And if you strengthen institutions, which also means strengthen the SDM and et cetera, making it more professional and all that, there's little that can trickle down, right? As in the toxicity, so to speak. But I think that's about it. - What was in your stories when he was minister or even president was there, was there stories about bribery and everything? - I wouldn't know. - Got it. - You would tell me. - I wouldn't know. Yeah, I would, and you know, whenever he talked about his time, I wouldn't probe further, right? Because, as I mentioned, of that insecurity. - Got it. - Yeah. So I would just be like, okay. - Yeah. - Maybe you don't know what I mean. But I think he wonders. - No, I can feel what you mean. I can feel you. - I mean, it's the truth, right? I can't be anyone else but myself. - True. - And as much as, you know, I regretted, right? - You wanted to be on your own. You wanted to do everything on my own. - I wanted to be on my own. And I know that if things were different, maybe I wouldn't be where I am today. - Well, that is actually true. - Well, that is true. - You are one decision away from living a very different life. - You know. - For the people who always have diplomatic and fundamental rights and they are trying to make them happy. How do you see? - Oh. - How do you see? - Oh, man. - In 2005. - Oh, man. - Because of the way they are going to be happy. - Because they are going to be happy. - And they are going to be happy. that is the best for the story. So, it's time to start the story. Duh, di bicara katanya gitu. Tapi other than climate change, but sustainability, what are some of the things that you wanna, or here's even a better question, what are we going to expect from the foundation? What are we going to expect from, I think your last name that, you know, grandfather's no longer around, grandmother's no longer around, how's the pertinian, kan keluar? Okay, so just to be clear, I work on two foundations right now. One is the HBN Ironwood Foundation and the other one is the HB center. They're both very different, but the way I easily explain it to people, one is the soul of the legacy, and the other one is the mind of the legacy. Wow, which was the soul of the day? The soul is the HBN Ironwood Foundation. It maintains the IP or the intellectual property of my grandfather starting, and grandmother starting from the books, the films, and then the house. What people can expect, I hope going forward is, unexpected, unexpected collaborations, for us to be able to make the legacy be felt more deeply by people today. I'm being very cryptic right now. You're even a whisperer to be later on. Maybe. But unexpected collaborations, making the legacy much more than a something that you commemorate, but how do we actually activate it today? Right. And how do we spread his spirit essentially to our generation and the future? So that's one. And I think for the HBB center, that's the mind. So this is actually a think tank that was created by my grandfather when he was no longer president. So it's been standing for this year, 27 years, right? Actually very much inspired by the Carter Center. So my grandfather always looked up to his Jimmy Carter because he thought their legacy was quite similar. He also is a huge proponent for democracy. And I think he comes from a STEM background, right? Very much in love with his wife, etc. I think the HBB center is time for regeneration, right? So the same, actually for both. Regeneration of the soul, regeneration of the mind. You've got a lot. But I have my team. Of course. And they're great teams. I've met, say they're all smiling. I've met your team. I've met quite a little bit of your grandfather's team. In the house, you mentioned a few people. Wow, these are people that are so dedicated. I don't think their dedication is only to the family, to the nation. Yeah, I think so too. I think the people that I recruit tend to quite be similar. Similar in terms of values, but different in terms of skill set. Actually, most of them are women. So I think I have to also, you know what I mean, reverse recruit. In a way, because I think we have to balance it a little bit more. That's right. Well, now that we know, but what do I have to do again? I think my final question is that, if you see that there are regenerations in the foundations, and you get, do you feel like today, you will have a responsibility to contribute to Indonesia in a whole new way? Don't you have it in you? I'm just doing a podcast every Friday. Is a podcast truly just a podcast? Oh no, I'm asking you that too. I think we all are. I don't know. I think everyone has some sort of love for their country. I mean, at least the people I surround myself with. And I think we always have to be optimistic. Because if we're optimistic, that's a driver of change, right? Do I feel responsible? Yes, but I think I'm not the only one. But my sense of responsibility probably comes from philosophical thought of the injustices of birth, right? Because when you are born, your cards are pretty much set. Your life could have been so different if you were born to a different family. And that is a question that I grapple with every day. Perhaps differently now. And I think not the only, but my way is to be able to contribute back. Because that way I feel like I've lived a full life. That's what we're doing in this podcast. Thank you so much. My last question. Do you want to see the group WhatsApp? Yes. It would be cool, actually. It would be very cool. It's not? Not yet. I do know. Or is this a rumor? I heard that. I don't know that. Check on your dad's phone. Maybe it's there. Maybe my dad need to talk more. Anything else you want to add? Thank you so much for inviting me to your podcast first of all. I do love podcasts. Because it gives me a chance also to explain myself. You don't do this a lot. You need to do it. I do like podcasts, especially for women. I don't mean to make it a gender thing always. But I think it's also to be able to understand. So the market can understand that there are different types of people. And we're all complex in our own ways. You can't box us. Don't box us. This is our identity. And we own that. And we should be unapologetic about that. So I'm very grateful for this. Maybe I need to do more podcasts. Maybe I need to go to you to ask how to do more of this. But anyway, here it is. And hope you enjoy. Thank you. I'll see you guys next week. Bye bye. [MUSIK]