Play Golf, Not Golf-Swing with Billy Ray Brown

This on the mock pod cost is brought to you in pod by Sinovus. Wherever potential leads you, get there with speed, get there with scale, get there with Sinovus. Sinovus, get there. PGA Tour Regulus season done and dusted, been there, done that. It's playoff time, how's it? My on the mark drive, it's Mark your host. Thank you for downloading this podcast and I couldn't think of a better guest to have a playoff commencing game playing podcast with then my guest for the show Billy Ray Brown. You're going to learn a lot of stuff in this cool episode. He'll talk about chasing perfection and how it keeps golfers from playing your best. How Billy Ray transformed his short game in only a few months. Why golf is viewed as a game of recovery, the difference between productive practice and simply filling time, how feel and technique work together, how technology and data can help and how they can also become a distraction and much, much more. So stay tuned. This chat with one of my dear friends in broadcast and a great golfer in his own rights. Billy Ray Brown will be worth your while. As a reminder, you can watch this also on YouTube, search and subscribe to Mark and movement. And while you are on YouTube, also go and find Mark College, basically me, it's all golf tips, game information stuff. It's a new channel there. Go and search and subscribe until your friends. Got some really good guys in town here in Columbus, putting together very smart ideas for golf instruction. And they're keeping me accountable, which is a good thing, especially with my challenges. So subscribe to me, Mark and movement, and subscribe to my college. After this conversation with Billy Ray, I'm going to share some discount codes for you. I'll have a discount code for hack motion. So you can learn what your risks are doing throughout your golf swing, especially given that Billy Ray spoke of the value of understanding and how to use your hands in the golf swing for control, for touch and for power. And then I'll have a code for flat scope so you can use the data correctly, a discount code for that. And while I have you, don't forget to get your copy of lessons from the best, my book, which truly is lessons from the best, summarizing 18 of the best lessons and best podcasts we've done this far in lessons from the best to Billy Ray Brown. This podcast is going to be featured in it. That's how good it is. This segment of the on the mark podcast, it is brought to you by Sonovus. Sonovus, get there. This man is one of my favorite human beings in broadcast. In fact, let's check that. In all of humanity, Billy Ray Brown, man, how you doing, my friend? Good to have you. Mark, I am so glad. I know you and I over the past month or so have been trying to connect and get this podcast. It's great for me to be able to sit down with you, especially about our topic we're going to have today, but also, you know, we see each other in the aspect all the time at work in television as we both do. And so it's good to be able to have a open form, if you will, to be able to discuss this amongst best. You know, our jobs take us with the best players in the world each and every week. And we work with those same type of players and people too. So this is, I'm very looking forward to this. All right, folks. Stay tuned because Billy Ray is going to make sense of this whole golf instruction thing. And three time 1982 NCA national championship champion, four time all America, three wins on tour. Injuries, a bitch. That's all I'm going to say. So I want to kick it off with this Billy Ray looking back now because you have had the luxury of playing at a high level, winning at a high level, watching the best of the best at their best play golf and commenting on that and working the masters in fact sitting on the Amen corner channel, you have some big shoes to fill. So you put a lot of pressure on me over there. You, if you had, if you're looking back on it all, had to say to young Billy Ray, young man, this is something that I've learned throughout my career that you order, know as you embark on this golf thing. What would that be? You know, if I did not do now what I do, I couldn't answer this question honestly. And this is, if I knew them, what I know now from the other side of the game in our job that in which we, we do, people don't understand you and I have, there's probably eight jobs in this world, ten jobs in this world that do that what we do that everyone would like to have. But the ability to be with the best players in the world, we can and we can't because our job takes us to the future groups, the guys that are playing the best on the weekend and we see things. And throughout the years of playing at a high level, winning at high levels, you said, if I knew then what I know now that you do not have to be perfect. Let me say that again, you do not have to be perfect in this game. And I, you know, we all did mark you're the same way. We have chased perfection for a long time. And now as you get up in age, you become wiser and you realize one perfection is not attainable. That's not going to happen. But in this crazy game in which we love and which we play and which we made a living at, you do not have to be perfect. And I wish. I think, you know, from a standpoint of winning, at least it clicked on now, but from winning and maybe enjoying myself a little bit more in the life of the tour pro. If I did not chase perfection. Okay, you have opened so many rows with that. And I want to go down this road. There's a plaque behind my head here that green plaque over there. Yeah. You played college golf at the University of Houston. You guys were essentially the dynasty over there. I'm a clean wrote a book about it called the Houston Dynasty. Dynasty. I have, I guess, maybe I stumbled upon this or maybe I heard it somewhere, but I'm sort of claiming it's where I call golf a game of recovery. And Dave Williams, that plaque over there when I was the coach of the year in 2009. I know that coach Williams, whose head is on that plaque, stressed the short game with you guys. Folks, if you're listening on audio, you're going to look at Billy Ray's face. I got to tell you, it feels your point because now you've taken me back to days that I could not stand. Because of that. Well, yes, the thing. Golf is a game of recovery because you've said Reverend Billy Ray that golf is not a game of perfect. So then by definition, you're going to find yourself in some spots where you'd have somehow cobbled together Paris. And you're not going to hit the ball on the ring, the green in regulation all the time. So you're going to have to chip in parts and sometimes do the hard things that way. Because in my experience, in certainly yours, you don't hit it well entire week when you win. They're going to be days you're going to get by the bad day. There's going to be a hole or two or three holes throughout the day where you think you're hitting it well and you're going to have to recover. Here, there's no perfection. All right. So yeah, another great Texan Ben Hogan said you probably only had two or three or four good shots around. Okay, I would love to do this. I hope if you're watching real quick, you can see my giveaway round, right? I don't know if you can see this right behind me, right here. Can you see that photo? Yes. That is Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson. I won the Byron Nelson. They both signed a photo, which Ben would not sign if Byron signed it. So we had a friend of mine had been signed it first and Byron signed it. And that's exactly you bring this up. And here's the photo. I had that same conversation with exactly what you're referencing right now with Mr. Hogan and also Mr. Nelson. So you put this in here and what you say people, if you're a synodio, I wish you could see this. If not pull up Mark and you see this photo right here and you see there's some inscriptions on there and this is exactly what Mark is talking about right here. Let me get back to where we're at. All right. That's two point right there. Okay. So in other words golf's a game of recovery, coach Williams stressed the short game. There's a two-hole of famous greatest of all time. And that's where golf, the key to consistency in golf is there. So talk about your approach to scrambling recovery, putting that sort of thing. Well, okay. You go back and I'll have to reference this and it goes back to the opening there where you said in 1982 we did one as a team but also one as an individual. As you well know that NCAA is played in this springtime. Now in college golf we have follow-up. My freshman year I was not in the starting lineup at all. I did not play the golf club. playing the event. And my coach Dave Williams called my dad, who my dad, people that know him, he was very tough, played the NFL for a long time. He called my dad on Christmas Day. And told my dad that your son is not taking care of his short game business. He's fantastic to the green, but as we all know, we're gonna miss greens, his putty and his chipping, and his short game around is not any good. And I'll never forget the day that I was, I will say, yeah, I was forced. It was Christmas Day, Texas, which a lot of times it's won, but it was not. It was a blue norther, it was cold-winding. And I was out there Christmas Day on the chipping area at Kwell Valley, where I played golf, in freezing cold weather and started that process. And Dave Williams, the one that got me jump started, not through himself, which he preached all the time, but through my dad, and that's where it became important to me. Fast forward, I was very diligent about that approach to the game, and four and a half months later, I will, a month later, as I improved quickly around the greens, that I went on to make the team and win a national championship. So that was my first lesson at an early age. And I wish I could say I spent that much time on it also, because sometimes we get straight in a different direction, where you think ball striking is gonna, is the key, which then you have to go back to your basis again, go back to your short game. So you bring up an absolutely fantastic point. - I'm so glad you would say this, because I feel like I'm battling data nowadays, because Stokes' game for you, and Seck says, "Yeah, you gotta drive it well." Now look, I agree you have to drive the ball well. You can't be driving it crooked and the bushes, and of course. But the reality is, we can and we can, the best putter of all the good ball strikers are the folks that are caching the big checks and lifting the trophies, so wouldn't you agree? - No, 100%. You know, it's interesting. And it's funny, you have a daughter who's, I think has one of the best golf swings I've ever seen. If she's around today, you gotta tell her, you better be at the practice, see you better be hitting tips and stops like that. But you're gonna be able to have that, that kind of knowledge to pass on to other people. But as you go back to Stokes' games, it's something that, and it goes back to just being number generated as a player. We've gotten away from that. And I agree with you, you gotta drive it down there. Now, fairway's hit. It doesn't matter as much anymore, but I still think it does. - Yeah, it does. - But even though you drive it in the rough, way down there, your proximity to the hole is gonna be out there. If you drive it way down there in the fairway, your proximity to the hole is gonna be closer than to your point, the guys that are putting the best to the guys that are hitting the ball with more consistent in proximity to the hole, they're the ones caching the big checks. And it's the putting, I'm sorry. The same drive for show putt for dough. Okay, I understand if you can't drive it anywhere, you know, that happened, but drive for show putt for dough. That's an old saying, and I still believe it firmly. - Yes, the thing, it's a cliche, and there's a lot of fact rooted in cliches. And the reality, you're rolling your eyes, I love you. - I agree. - The reality is that there's nothing really new under the sun when it comes to golf instruction and stuff. Yes, data can help you direct your practice intentions better, but you drive it in play, you hit quality irons if you're fortunate, but you make putst to make lots of threes and forwards. That's just how it goes. - Yeah, and you know, yeah, it's data driven. I think it's good to, and this is just my personal take on it, two things. The most complex thing about a golf swing is with today's technology, today's teaching philosophies, the most complex thing about learning to play the game is keeping it simple. This simplicity of the golf swing is there. And when you have all these factors, all this data, all this, these types of new ways of actually striking the golf on. I mean, you can go up and down, you can go down any rabbit hole you have. I believe me, I've gone down those rabbit holes, but if you can keep it simple, and I think data is good just to get you started. The last time I looked more, that ball tells me exactly what I did. Okay, would I like to have more ball speed? Yes, would I like to have less spin? Yes, but I can look at the ball when I hit it and tell you, okay, that had too much spin, or I know why the ball curved the left, I know why the ball curved the left. The ball doesn't lie. Yeah, and I'm not looking, the last time they're making three's and four's like you said, that data then which you receive doesn't compute in the numbers, playing golf, computes in the numbers. There's guys that have the best numbers on, I'll just, on the devices. I don't want to throw anybody in the best and all the monitor systems that are out there. Yeah, that's a good starting point. But the person that has the best numbers, I can promise you, it's not the person who's on the top of that money list right now. Is this true? I want to back up because you talked about the Christmas Day event that essentially was a watershed in your career, it sounds like. Yeah, it was. And so you get out there and you're practicing chipping and putting on a cold, frigid day. I don't think a lot of golfers, even golfers at the elite level, really kind of know how to practice the stuff productively. 'Cause there's this practice, there's filling time and then there's productive practice. Walk me through what Billy Ray must have done because you said from Christmas Day to when's the national championship, it's in May? Yeah, exactly. That's a pretty fast improvement. Five months. Yeah, that's a fast improvement by you. So share the gold, please. Well, the issue was, it was by myself. So there was no technique involved. I found out what my technique would be. And it was all about, to be honest with you, it was about the coalition with my hands on the golf club and the field aspects of it. What I needed to do to hit the shot and learn the shots that I needed to learn and to implement what I did on the practice area back to the golf course. But mine was more fuel-generated, to be honest with you. It was something that I, it was a light went on. I didn't like doing it until I started to tinker, if you will. Okay, maybe this will work. And all of a sudden it was all fuel-generated. It was not a technique that I was using whatsoever. And it not only did it translate through, by short game error, but it translated into my putting as well. Because there's, my stroke was never perfect, but I could still putt. I knew what I could do with the putter. It was a break putter, no. But it more than anything mine was all filled-generated. And to get that fill was countless hours. And you said, there are times, Mark, I could have gone and got my work done. There's days when you know this as a player, you know this, I can be, I can go to work and get done what I need to get done in a couple hours. Now there's days where you know there is not enough daylight to get done. But when you get done, get done. You know, there are days that you don't get much work done. That's the fact of the matter is because you're not the reason you don't because you're trying swing 27-X for B, something like that. Yeah. But now that was an eye-opening experience to me. And with that being said, the results came quickly. Yeah. And then I became a sponge. Then I became a sponge. And one of the people that helped me become a sponge to retain this sponge, retain the feel. And I'll have to throw a name out there. De-Carmen, you know, being from Houston area. It was all about feel. It was, every, you see all that stuff. But he was helped me to soak up that information and keep it to myself. I want to back you up because you said something maybe in passing that people might have missed. And I want to mind this a little. You said it was by yourself. Now, nowadays we've talked about data. Look, I'm a golf instructor deep down. Although I have a microphone in front of my face now. Where it's almost intellectually lazy because as soon as something's going bad, one of other young aspirin player or old player, whatever you want to call them, club golfer, they turn around, they look at somebody else and to say, okay, what must I do? And you're talking about your journey of self discovery. And on your wall there, there's Ben Hogan who spoke of digging it out of the dirt. Right. And it's almost become taboo now to just get around the short game area there and get experimental and start fiddling, you know, until you find yours. Are you with him? You know what? (laughs) People listen to this. Listen to what he's saying right now because every time in the modern era player and that they're always when something goes wrong, They will turn and go, "What did I do there?" You should know what the hell you did there. And getting out there by yourself and learning that, if you want to say, figure it out, figure it out, dig it in the dirt. That is something that is huge that it has to be done by yourself. You cannot. And we see it, we can't, not just short-game. I'll throw another piece of the puzzle on that. When one of these, I got to stay away from names here, some of these robotic players in which we see, one cog gets thrown off during a round of golf, and they're done. We see it. You see them unfold immediately. And once that one cog is done in certain aspects of the game, it filter down to the rest of the game. And when you have the ability to find out what you're doing yourself, find it out in the dirt, what you can do, you can make adjustments. The wind's different every hole. The pace of the green is different every day. So you have to figure that out. You have, players do that, and they don't realize they actually have that in their, in their willhouse. They're making those adjustments, but they don't realize, "Hey, I'm doing that myself." Well, do the golf swing the same? Do the short-game the same? Yeah, you know what I hear from listening between the lines. I'm hearing a veteran golfer that's one at the highest level, that sees it all the best play. You're sort of saying, it's easy to fall in love with a result, with holding trophy at weeks end. But you have to be in love with the craft of developing who you are so that you can go and deliver what you want to under pressure. And. I want to fall in love with the result. Yeah, but to attain that result, that what you want to, you have to go way, way back. You've got to go back from the beginning. How did I get, how did I attain this? How did I fall in love with the results? Okay, I had some success, but how did I get there? There was a slow process that you went in to get there. And most of that's by yourself, even at a young age, you know? I think that's some of the most formidable times as a player. A player that is at a young age that figures it out by themselves. They can rely on themselves too and not get stagnant, if you will. Yeah. Watch out for your finger, you're blocking your hands and. Oh, sorry about that. That's right. I want to say this too. In that practicing, be prepared to practice the hard stuff. The, the, the shot you don't have around the greens. Because, because so often I see people almost go and I call it zombie practice or autopilot practice, where they do the same thing every single time. And they get on the golf course and they wonder why they don't shoot the scores they should, because this ball is rolled into one other area that they weren't prepared for. That is, that is some great advice. And two, that, that goes down, have you ever noticed on the driving range? You got picks up as wedge, it's a couple wedges, it's a night iron, then I'll say, okay, I'm really struggling with my mid-iron right now. I'm having trouble flighting the ball down. But the first thing you go to, a guy that can drive it well, he's over there hitting 75 drivers. You know, oh man, look how good I am. You go in the golf course, you drive it down there, 60 yards from the green. You can't, you can't hit your, your butt with both hands, you know. So, that's, that's the thing. You have to go to the most uncomfortable situations and put yourself in there. That's where you find the feel and if you want to call it technique, there is a technique, but feel the technique, run hand in hand to be. Yes, I have to agree with you wholeheartedly, a thousand percent. The Billy Ray I know is a stickler for fundamentals. And I think at the bottom of all of this, there is a route. It's kind of the Genesis ride. That's, that's good fundamentals. And I'll use the name now. Current year in 2026, world number one, golf is Scottie Sheffler. That guy does not deviate whether he's hitting the thing sideways, or whether he's flushing it. It's the same things he's checking on every single time. And that is the, and it goes back to the most complex thing in the game is to keep it simple. That is hard to do when you start trying to fix stuff. It's a sea, Randy and Scottie sitting with that grip. You don't think I hadn't got one of those grips. The only grip? You kidding me? I grew up on those. Yeah. Bill Hill, who was my teacher, played it, who got me to play golf. And he played it in North Texas. He got me to sit down with one of his teammates, like, oh, guy, Don January. Oh, let's do it. Yeah. And you know, one of his old teammates. And it, it was great. Miller Barber, some of these older guys, we talked about fundamentals. And I am a stickler for fundamentals. And when I go bad, or when I went bad, and we all do, I better. Before I go through any other checklist, I don't care. You go back to your fundamentals. You know, I look at a player that I just sit there and just love watching. And we'll talk about World's No. 1, Scottie, Shepler. Does he do it a different way? Yes. But one that sticks to fundamentals. And he was a guy that I got to watch play quite a bit. But he also was instructed by one of the family members. I love to watch Adam Scott. Yes. His fundamentals, the way he sets up to the ball. And then he pulls the trigger from there. But I am a stickler for fundamentals. Do I get sideways all the time? I go, if I go out today and hit balls, I'll be there and I'll sit and I'll try something. I'll work and I'll go, no, stop. Just go back to fundamentals and you'll figure it out from there. I want to talk about what those fundamentals are. But first, just to put a bow in your story there. Adam, Scott, I want to ask him because you know everyone anchors after his golf swing. Right. So I sit him. What's the key? And he goes, I believe if I sit up properly, it kind of takes care of everything. And then the teacher in me, the inquiring mind wants to say, Oh, come on, there's got to be more to it than that. But the reality is, yeah, believe it, and this is where maybe modern day information and smarts. I use that term loosely. It's kind of muddy the water a little bit, right? Melisplowdy. Yeah, remember when it was good golf begins with a good grip. Nowadays, it's like, just play with whatever grip you are and we'll figure out the matchups to get that clubface properly on the ball. But yes, where I see the problem in that, because if you get a bunch of things going on in a short space of time, under pressure, if you're a competitor, and you could organize all of these moving parts. It was a young golfer who was a superstar in college and now no one's heard from him anymore. I won't use the name because there's a whole lot of stuff going on in the golf swing, which is sexy for a while. If you got a lot of things that you're having to do under pressure, the chances of you pulling that off consistently are. Are. Lesson. Simple as that. So, so that's great. It's great. Jeff LaRue does the right way to be. Yes, I agree. And, you know, you talk with those fundamentals and it was. It was pounded into me. You know, I used to love to watch Mr. Palmer. As he would go down the ferry, working on his grip all the time. It would take me back, you know. It was like I got to meet Mr. Palmer early on. I got an in-jump paid who lived here in Sugarland and he was ahead of Pins Oil. And so obviously Arnold was a Pins Oil guy. So, I got to meet. And I, and play a lot of golf at the Arnold and I just love the way he gripped the golf club. And the way he put it up when your hand, when your hands get it on correctly, in your ball position, grip, stance, alignment, and ball position. And, please, just do that. Just do that. And to your point, I have to really agree with Adam. I think you stay in those fundamentals there. The swing revolves around that. Maybe, you know, some people believe in muscle memory. Some people don't believe in muscle memory. But if you can put your body in the same position time and time again. The swing evolves around a fantastic setup. It's not going to say every shot's good. But I believe it constitutes into a consistent swing. You're getting my mind spinning and my 55-year-old brains trying to make sure I remember these things. The first thing I want to say about a you reference ball position. Not just left and right in the stance, distance from ball, too. That is swing path massively. But back to that in a second. Gough, getting back to his game of recovery. Scotty Sheffler, some of the follow-throughs he makes are insane. And you can almost see the shape the ball's going to go by what you're seeing in the follow-through. And I contend, and I want you to take, that because that grip is so neutral. And he's got such a great awareness of hands and clubface working in unison. Or clubface doing what hands do. He can save these shots like he does because it's not like he's having to hold a shot face open. Or something like that to try and get the ball to the target. Are you with me there? Am I with you? Yes. I am all in with you because I've always been taught the grip is just another variable of the clubface. When you put your hands on their neutral and you have a square clubface, you return your hands to the same place. same position and when she started, that club is going to be square. And along with that, when you have the ability, it goes back to something I said, when you have the ability to know where your club face is, throughout the golf swing, and you have the timing aspect of good setup, you can save the shop with your hands. You can save a shop, and I believe 100%. And if there's no other way to do it, I have looked, I've gone down like I said, rabbit hole after rabbit hole. There's no other way to save a shot unless you have hands involved in it. I'm sorry. There's not. And the last time I, okay, the body plays in a part of the swing. But the last time, if I, if I just rotate my body and move around, that club's not moving. I'm not hitting, I'm not hitting the shot with my, my left bicep. I'm sorry, I'm not. You got to rotate and use the ground reaction forces to make club it. Oh yeah, hold on. Yeah, but then I have to, then I have to, then I have to, you know, straighten my legs up to go ahead and get that rebound force from the ground at the energy in which I accumulated through the back. But the club, but the club face is looking crooked and you're wondering 100%. Yeah. How about this though? And again, I understand this because I mean, I as a teacher, when I finally wised up, I follow like a mantra that goes, if all you have in your tool belt is a hammer, then everything's going to appear like a nail to you. Right. Right. And I see this in game improvement nowadays. Like you got this card, Dre, folks, to talk about this and that and it's kind of their, their calling card, if you will. Um, I've never seen a great golfer and a lot of folks poo poo hand action. They try to reduce hand action throughout the golf swing in the interests of stabilizing the club face. Um, go go ahead and preach a little bit please because you've played under pressure. Yeah, I'm sorry. You know, um, every day your body moves at a different rate, you know, you're talking about stabilizing the club face. I firmly believe that is an integral part of the golf swing stabilizing the club face. And to do that, I think you have to integrate a few things to do that. I, you know, even though as the body rotates, the arms have a lot further linked to travel, but I still trying to figure out if when you sink your arms up with your body rotation, that helps stabilize the club face. There's, there's nothing flashing a hit. You know, I always said that I felt like when I played well that, uh, on the way down, if everything was right, my hands were right, you could say fade or draw and you know, on my way down, then I could, I could do that. I didn't have to be concerned about path. I knew what my club face would do. Um, but back to the point is that your ability to match all that up with your hands involved in it as well. I just, I don't like dead hands. I don't now. You see players that are great wedge players that are dead hands. You, you know, you, I'll throw a striker out there. Yes. Back Johnson. There, there are guys, but they all guys though, they all guys that tend with the club face a little bit more on the closed side. If you go right exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well, and that's some of those guys who are product. If you look at them of their grip, I don't think they have the best grips. Yeah. That's, that's why. Uh-huh. Okay. I've put Charmin, who said many a wise thing. Never really that deep, but lots of wise things that kind of make you think. And one time he said to me, he was on the show, and we were discussing technique. And you can imagine how this was going. And he was talking because he worked with Dustin Johnson, DJ at the time. And you know, he was famous for not changing DJ's action with a big bowed wrist at the top. Right. And he said to me, he goes, Mark, just because the face was shut at the top. It was at that stage, not shut to the target line. He goes, say, he had to get the top of the swing down to the golf ball. And so I just showed him how to make that happen more consistently. Right. And I was like, that is gold because a lot of folks, there's a disconnect from the top of the swing down to the ball where they're just like unwind in a fury and then to hope the ball goes straight. Right. So awareness of, you know, where the club faces in relation to you that helps you get the thing that more consistently. I love that you said that too. And I'm, I don't know, I'm from the harming aspects is all in butch. Like you said, butch is wise in that regard, you know. But I firmly believe at the top of the swing, just like DJ was, his club was pointed in the right direction, but it's just telling how to get it back to square one without being changed. And I, I'm in that same belief. It is, it's so old school. I can't imagine if you had to, if you had butch on that you had to edit some of the stuff that he was saying out of the show because I've known bush my whole life. We don't edit here, buddy. There's this as it's recorded and goes out. I always, this too. How about this? Like you recently, or in 2026, I shouldn't date this, but there's a young man on the tour Jackson Subaru's starting to play really well. And he's got a very, very strong grip. I mean, he's right. And it's almost completely under the club. And we were in the air in Canada and we had a little time and Frank Noble, our friend, I commented on the grip. And he even holds it strong putting and I commented in Frank's that, well, okay, cool. What is the key to this? And I, I cobbled together some on said, but I didn't have the time to say, it's like you could understand where the clubface is in space. And that's why people got to realize if you have a shut face, then you can rotate your body more to square it up. Right. You don't have a shut face. You can't be doing that rotation lesson because if you do, that timing that sequencing you talk about is up to maggots and the ball's not going to go where you want. That's, that's, that's your two-way miss there. Believe me, I know. Yeah. That regard. I think you made a really good analogy of using you know, maybe some of your viewers and some of them that are not really up because DJ's gone in a different direction. But when you use Jackson Super, I've done a lot of college golf throughout the years. And I've seen Jackson from the start to his finish there at Ole Miss. All right, yeah. And you bring up a good point. Nothing has ever changed from there. He never made a drastic change, but he does. He is a lot like DJ in my, my regard, the way that he, when he grips it, and worries that at the top. But I was always of mind of watching, okay, how does he do this? You know, I'm, I'm like you, I'll sit there and try to even during a show. I'm sitting there going, when I probably should be paying attention to our producer. I'm sitting there trying to figure something out there. You know, you know, you know how that is. I'm, I'll go down a rabbit hole. And I might even miss a shot. They might be talking to my group, but I'm, I'm thinking about something. And so, but Super is a great illustration of that right now. And obviously, you know, with the open championship going on right now. And I'll probably go throw something on there. Guys, they're playing swing this week. Yeah, they are not playing swing this week at Berkdale. They're learning to play by feel and what that ball can do. And they're, they're figuring this out as they go in the dirt, if you will. Yeah, I was about to talk about body rotation because your swing reminded me of you, you're doing away. But at first, you make a very sound point there. Where oftentimes to me, the swing is a function of the shot required and the environment in which it's played under. You playing those very firm conditions at Berkdale, like we see in 2026. You can't be a picker of the golf ball of that stuff. You got to be pounding the ground a little bit to really get the ball in the center of the club face. So in other words, something is changing to what you do to have you strike this thing in a desired fashion. You better be pounding that ball in that club, that leaving edge this week. And I ground is got to be coming in at a sharp angle of attack. And coming in there and pounding the ground. Now, it's fun. You say that because days back when I worked with our colleague, Ian Baker, fence there for a number of times, who won his Open Championship at Berkdale, I went back the old place I used to work at. We always do the Open Championships, senior Open and the Women's British Open as well. So we played a lot of golf. So I went back a couple times with Fincy and played at Berkdale and he talked about that. Yes. He talked about his ability to actually go down after some of these in different life. It taught him. He said it made him a better player because it taught him in those conditions that he had to actually change a lot of angle of attacks and pound the ball down. And Fincy was not that type of player. He wasn't. Nice, a sweeper. Yeah. So anyway, this is actually turned into a good segue for what I was talking about. In our reference, Charlie Coody, who's golf swinger loved. I mean, it looked like he was just around in a circle. So simple. Yeah. And we've talked about Lord Byron and the Hawk Ben Hogan and of course, Billy Ray, Texas golf hall of fame, you are. There's something to be said because none of you guys except for Byron to a certain extent, but he didn't drift side to side. He went more up and down because of the soft leg action. Right. You guys turned tight over the top of the golf ball all the time to present that club properly to the hard Texas ground and then bear in mind the wind to flat this thing with some sort of authority. Is that correct? That would be correct. It was out of necessity because the environment in which we grew up playing. You turn around it and whether you like or not, I always tried to illustrate to some of the people that if you're a pitcher on a pitcher's mound, if you're right hand to player, that pitcher once he makes his turn, he plans that foot against the rubber and pushes off that to get to his left side. We would pivot around our right and push off that right to get to our left, to get that angle of attack, to go ahead and hate to work bare the club on the ground. But have a downward strike on the ball. That was the pinnacle ball position. Reconciled this for me then because this is where there's a problem in golf instruction. Let's say it's a young Beliree, whoever the instructor is in a different part of the country of the world, didn't know who you were. And he saw you and he saw that push off and he saw the shopper angle of attack on a launch monitor. And he goes, "But Beliree, this is a little too steep. We've got to clean this up a little bit. Help the viewer and the listener because I feel like that's where sometimes good information is misdirected and then poor individuals battling to do this consistently." Well, okay. Two things with that and I'm probably going to come across as an asshole here now. Truth, the truth, the truth sometimes hurts, but we need it. All right. I'm not playing as a young Beliree. I'm not playing to a monitor or a number. I know what my ball is doing. And then secondly, secondly, who is giving me that information? I'm sorry. I've always, someone like, you know, I'll have to throw you, you know, your family in there, the elements. They're golf worthy. Been around the gang forever. But if it's someone that has never been around the game, I'm sorry, is telling me I'm being a harming guy. Yes. Sorry. I mean, well, they're real, do you have golf that? Yeah. You've got it. My blood's pumping right now. If someone's telling me how to play the game that I have not seen them or our family members name etched on a trophy of some magnitude, don't come and tell me how to play the game. I am a stickler in that. I know it will piss people off, but that is kind of the way I ride. That is, that's how I roll right there. Okay. What you say is so true and it hurts sometimes. And I'm sure the expert is watching this that might be taking things personally. Right. Well, it knows I have throughout the years, but I now have a podcast where I'm hearing all comeos. Right. And I hear everything so I can streamline what I believe. But yes, the rep. You've said a few times in that statement of yours. Play the game. Not swing the golf club. And yes, we are, I think we're losing the farthest for the trees. It's about playing the game in the final analysis. Yes. 100%. I can get on my soapbox about this for a long time, but I have to agree with you whole heartedly. I do. I really, really, really agree with you. Well, okay. Without being like that, give me the set. You got 30 seconds about playing the game. If you go. The key to playing the game is no matter what you do, is to get the ball into that cup as fast as you can in the less than nine strokes that you can. And the easiest way in my opinion to do it is fundamentals in being able to have control of the face of the golf club and that starts with the grip. If someone, if someone's going to tell me you said it bad, but at least you have a decent grip, you got a chance. And that's that's simple for me. It really is. You know, 30 seconds, that's a hard one to do because I can go 30 minutes on this right now. I know you could. But I wanted you to emphasize the point because in this game where we have so much information right now and it's all helpful. Look, I've not picking up. Oh, no, don't get me wrong. I've got to interrupt. Don't get me wrong. You don't think I haven't looked at it? I think I am so stingy that what the hell? Hell no. I've looked at all that. But what it all comes back to me is the information good? Yeah, it's good. But what does it come back to me? It comes back to fundamentals. I'm sorry. There's, you know, there's there's so many ways to to get across your point. And that's something I should I should preface this to terminology. How how are you going to convey your message to someone as an instructor? How are you going to convey your message in the terminology in which is understandable? Yes. And there's, you know, as you well know, you got a brother like me. You're a smart guy. I don't think Trevor and I have ever been called the smartest cookies, you know? Is he really smart or really basically simple? And you know, there's different terminologies that I understand that some people don't understand. And there's terminology that you understand that there's no clue I can convey what has just been said. Brilliant stuff, my friend. This is where I normally ask people what the social media handles are so you can share. Yeah. I know you don't social media very much say anything to share there. You know what? I don't, you know, it's it's something that I don't go down because I just not that I don't want to offend people, you know? One, I'm not that interesting. I hope you I'm interesting. I'm going to fight you on that one. But what I do might not be want to be shared, yeah, social media, you know, I'm just not that, I'm just not that guy, you know, I'm that guy that likes to even though we speak for living. And my wife will tell me oftentimes I speak before someone else finishes, but I like kind of hanging back and soaking up the information and just using it and I filter out stuff. And you know, I take what I think is good and kind of throw up, you know, what's what's bad. But it is something I just never, never got into. Now everyone says, you get on social media, you're going to have a heck of a fight. You know me well enough. Something's going to happen wrong. It's going to happen to me, you know? So I choose not to go down that path. Billy Ray, you're a legend, national champion, Texas Hall of Fame winner in the PGA tour, one of the most respected voices in golf commentary. Everything you share, your share always is the ultimate truth and authentic. Yeah, I'm so thankful you would join me and share what you know and what you've learned with all of our global audience. Thank you, man. You know what? I was so surprised you asked me to be on your show. We were sitting in tight and I said, well, have you all be on your show? Then you said, you didn't get back to me. I said, yes, I did. And so it was a big work. I certainly appreciate this. This is fun. Don't make it the last either. Now, when you get some bad comments for what I said, you can send them my way. Just send them through your social media pass, not mine. I'll be your wingman. Thank you. I'll have to take care. Thank you more. The segment of the Unmarked Podcast, it was brought to you by Sinovus. Sinovus, get there. Hey, I'm lots and lots of information in that as I listen back to it. I was like, holy smoke. This thing's loaded. We were all over the show. But two things I jotted down that I just want to revisit real fast. The first one was just the very savvy advice from Billy Ray, which is to practice what makes you uncomfortable. And you know, we all naturally gravitate toward the clubs and the shots that we do well because we have egos. The real productive practice, though, requires an opposite approach. We're going to work on those awkward liars. Those little flited wedges, the recovery shots, the bunker shots, all those spots that kind of get you a little nervous, anxious on the golf course. On your home course, too, go and find the shots that you kind of get into your skin a little of it and use a little exposure therapy when the golf course is quiet, go out there by yourself, a few balls and hit the shots that make you uncomfortable until you pull them off consistently. And then you'll be well on your way. You'll get by that shot because it could be just that one shot that's kind of ruining your day and your golf. And then the next thing, and this is part of it, was Billy Ray talking about learning to figure it out. I laughed when he talked about players always turn to someone else, so I've had a bad shot and they sort of become dependent on someone else's feedback. Billy Ray, as he mentioned about the Christmas day putting practice, you know, you must spend a time experimenting, watching the ball flight, learning what feel works because that self-awareness will give you the ability to make adjustments on the fly and in competition and more often than not make the correct adjustments because remember if you're turning to your friend for advice you may be turning the wrong way. Now you're turning the right way to come to the On the Mark podcast and I'm glad you did. I'm thankful for you. We've got lots of partners who we ear mark and we approach them to get discounts for you guys. Hack motion is always very popular because your hands as Billy Ray said play such a vital role in the golf swing and the short game. The Hack motion device you can put it on it's kind of like a whoop and it tracks how your hands and wrists move in space. Brilliant feedback, brilliant brilliant feedback. Easy to get go to Hack motion.com. hackmotion.com. Use the code on the mark and you'll get yourself a discount there. I mentioned flat scope, great data, also a fantastic range finder if you're in the market for one it's called the i4. If you go to flat scope.com and you use my code on the mark you will get 10% off everything so that'll be worth your well too and I mentioned the whoop. Hey I've done a lot of walking this season and my whoop is tracked everything from my movement, my activity, my stress on my body, my recovery which last night was very bad for the only flat this morning and it's helped me make smart decisions with it's AI-driven library. So check out your whoop go to join.whoop.com/onthemark. Thanks for downloading this one. I appreciate you guys very much. If you're going to play golf, have lots of fun, make lots of birdies, take it easy. Hey and don't make those dumb mistakes. Senovas is the bank of here. Here is where roots run deep and familiar faces welcome you home. Here's a place that keeps getting better with time because every generation leaves it better than the way they found it and here's where our bankers are helping turn ideas into business realities because they understand what it means to be from here. It's where we smile when we see our customers and where they smile back. Senovas, the bank of here. Senovas member FDIC Equal Housing Lender.