Pivotal Teen Movies with Sophia Bush | 102

Okay, spoiler alert. You can see everything. The Nathan Fielder-Lance Oppenheim movie. If you haven't seen it, stop listening right now. That includes our engineer. We made him. So if something goes wrong, just be an ally to him, okay? Hi, I'm Peyton. And I'm Hunter. And this is Let Me Say This from Higher Ground. Today, we are talking about You Can See Everything, again, because we saw it again and see it all. But before anything. Oh my God, set it up. Before anything, we're joined by a little friend of ours. Why did I say little? No, like, she's big time. Like, sorry, she's big time. I was like, don't. Women shrink themselves. We teach women to shrink themselves. Don't do that. I take it back. Okay, warm, warm, warm welcome to Sophia Bush. Hi, girlies. Oh my God. Oh my gosh. We did it. We're so happy to have you here. I'm so happy to be here. We're all in the same energy, too. It's like, we've had days. And I love that. A few, in fact. Yeah. But we're good here. We're safe here now. Yeah. I. Thank you to the fire horse. Also, if it could just slow down from like a breakaway gallop. I could do a casual trot. Sure. That's the energy I need for the rest of the year. I just need a. Can I ask a brave question? Yeah. Horse girl? I was. Oh, yes. Yeah. I love a horse girl, Batty. They got a bad rep for a second. I know they really did. And I'm like, they have great posture. Why are we mad? Like, we could all learn from this. Also, I think some of the rep is deserved. Like, much like bad reps for billionaires. I think it's like the fancy, bitchy horse girl who got a bad rep. And like, okay. Yeah. But the, you know, the rest of us who like mucked around after school and literally like had to muck stalls, we're fun. I think we don't worry about it. We got outfit. I'm good. I'm a hard worker. I love a horse girl hard worker. Yes. That was her tea. Yes, outfit. Cut to next week, I'm in full drag. You just walk in and you're like, this is my new identity. See if Hunter notices. I would. They do give like soft dom. Just saying. Horses do? The boots. Oh, the boots. The boots. Soft dom. Soft dom. Soft dom. Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hunter's like, what's that? Oh, that over there. And I learn something new every day. Okay, we have a question that we ask everyone who comes on the show. Okay. Do you consider yourself to be a lover or a hater? Unfortunately, I think I was born to be a lover girl. I really was. There's so many things in the world that I do hate. Like, I don't know, fascism. Heard of it. But I've realized that the root of that, at least for me, that kind of sacred rage, the desire to stand up for something, to stand up for people, to defend democracy and my neighbors, it's because I love hard. Yeah. So, yeah. What are you? I just listened to your Call Her Daddy episode and the way that you were talking about love made me, I mean, because, you know, we go together. Yeah. Yeah. Hey. We go together. All my hands on the under is like, same. That was crazy. She's like, and I am. But also we go together because I'm a big-hearted bitch. Like, on my sleeve. I know. We kind of echo the hater, the lover. But then we, like, we rotate. But the way that you talk about love is so deeply, like, romantic and moving and full-bodied and it's really beautiful. Thank you. I, yeah, I really appreciated it. It made me really emotional. Thank you. Anyway, that's just me getting that off, starting off on a high note. But it did. That's the lover in her. I know. It does leave me sometimes down the road. Sometimes my heart's, like, too open and then we got to close up shop a little bit. I mean, same. And unfortunately, all the, all those mistakes have been out in the internet forever. So that's fun for me. Yeah, we're going to talk about a lot. That's right over there. But we also want to do a quick little rapid fire lover-hater of teen shows. Teen movies. Oh. Okay. Well, oh, I thought you were going to The concept. Oh, sorry, sorry. The concept. Sorry, I was like, which one are we starting with? There's many. I've done a few. Um, lover. When they're done well, I think they're so incredible. Did you, did you watch Stirling Point? Yes. Love. Take it up. Oh, my God. Everything that is someone who was on a teen show and did a teen movie or two wanted those things to be. And sometimes I think they are great and the genre itself can be so iconic. And when it's done well, I mean, come on, what's better? No, really. I think there's a certain like affection you have when you love a movie when you're a teenager. When you love a movie, you had a sleepover and it's like, oh, that's it. You do it your whole life. Do you remember the movie Sleepover? Of course I do. With Alexa Vega? Is that her name? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've never seen it. I wanted to have a sleepover and I said, let's rent a sleepover and watch Sleepover. Didn't they have like a smart car in that movie? They drove the smart car. They snuck out. I remember that. Yeah, one of those little cars. I just remember she skated and she was skating barefoot and I said, women. Wow. That's cool. Interesting. Do you have a formative like teen show or movie that you grew up on that felt like it really made a mark on you? Oh, man. Size your own, I guess. Well, I was very early on the OG 90210 train and then I went to camp that summer. I was nine and that's when, shoot, who was it? I think Kelly and Brandon. Had the affair behind Brenda's back or no, Kelly and Dylan. That's what it is. I'm catching up. I'm coming back. Dylan McKay. It was like a whole thing and my parents watched the episode while I was gone and were like, you are never fucking watching this show. So then I wasn't, yeah, I was not allowed to watch 90210 anymore. I was very upset about it. I think for me, I was definitely into the beginning of Dawson's Creek. That was a moment. Great theme song. It wasn't, it wasn't teen, but when I got to college, my first friend who was my, like, best friend on my floor was obsessed with Sex and the City. So I started watching that from the beginning with her. So that is burned into my brain as sort of the next wave, the collegiate years. But yeah, I don't know. It's crazy to have been a part of a teen show that defines that era for so many people because I'm like, oh, I have that with other things. Yeah. Oh, I love that. It's surreal. I love that. Okay, next one. Love or hater of breakups? I mean, hater, they're horrible. I'm. You love a breakup? I. Okay, you know one thing about me. I love a divorced woman. Yes. And I think who you are after a breakup, it's like you get to meet yourself again. And I really think that's special. Like, you have to go through like a lot of really hard stuff Yeah. to make it, to the other side. Okay, I'm going to amend my answer. Okay. Lover of myself and friends. Yeah. Post-breakup, lover. But the actual process of a breakup. Oh, totally. I hate. And I think especially because when you are a lover girl, you have to mourn that this thing that you really believed or really wanted to believe was right ultimately wasn't. And it's. I think it can be really devastating to realize you've been more in love with potential than reality. And that is just something I hate. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But you are right. Yeah. The light at the end of the tunnel is then you know yourself better and then maybe you're even more lovable. Yeah. There's a few phoenixes in this chat right now. You know what I mean? I've seen smash, you know? All the way down. Yeah. I guess. I guess. I guess sometimes. Okay. Lover, hater of all girls goals. Lover. Yeah. I went to Marlowe. The best. You did. Oh my God. It's all over me. It's obvious. Yeah. I mean, well. Low-key drug. Hello. I feel like. Do you think that it's impacted the way that you to like take up space and like advocate for yourself? Absolutely. Yeah. And when I think about. Because people will talk to me about my confidence or whatever and I'm like, oh, it's terrible in here. What are you talking about? Like as mean as you think the internet is, like nothing's meaner to me than me in here. And I think that. When I reflect on all-girls school, I really think I'm able to be the way I am in the world and I possess the intellect that I possess and I speak up in the way that I do because of it. And when I think about my internal life, the work I've had to do to unlearn self-doubt and self-criticism, which, by the way, don't go anywhere. Now I just am like, bitch, you're noisy. Get in the back seat. I'm driving. Like I get I never get to kick her out of the car, but she doesn't have to. You can make her put her seatbelt on. Yeah. Like she just doesn't have to be the driver. For sure. I don't know who I would be without the amazing freedom and confidence from an all-girls school. You know, that mean to me me might be in charge of my whole life and, again, wouldn't wish it on anyone. Yeah. I remember being upset when my mom was like. She like cried when I got into the all-girls school that I went to called Marlboro. So I was like, I guess I don't have a choice. I was like, James, you're weeping on the freeway. Oh, here we go. Here we go. But I feel like so much gratitude. For being able to, like, really, like, know and find myself amongst, like, women I really cared about and informed, like, the woman I am now and, like, are still friends of mine. And there's so much research about it, too. You know, boys flourish pretty much the same, whether they are in a co-ed environment or not, but girls don't. An all-girls environment gives girls tools and better mental health and better outcomes in their life by leaps and bounds. And so that, it's kind of an interesting thing for us, I think, as a society to start to look at and try to figure out how to… Make the space for better outcomes for women in other spaces, too. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like OG Girls Girls. Yeah. Like, I feel like girls and don't girls are really ready to buck up for people. Yeah. I'm like, where's Hannah and Paige? But for other girls, I'm like, yeah, come here. Yeah, when I found that out, I was like, oh, of course. It's all, like, I feel like your advocacy, it's all rooted in you. I think so. Like, your ability to, like, shoulders back, titties up, let's go. Let's have an argument. Like, I love it. Oh, I love it. Thank you. I'm hearing that my parents made a mistake. I should have gone to an all-girls school. Sorry. Sorry. No, there weren't any in Oklahoma. If they were, they weren't cool. Okay, I want to pivot a bit and talk about your memoir. Yeah. Which we have a copy of it right here. Yeah. So zoom in on that, and I will tell you mine. There's a quote from the book that I really love. You said that, I've learned that not everything belongs to everyone. This book was never meant to be a ledger of everything that happened. It was an attempt to understand what happened to me. And so I wanted to think, I wanted to ask you about how you think about memoir and the purpose of memoir as a genre. Yeah. I think what I had to really come to terms with for myself was first and foremost giving myself the space that I inherently give to other people. You know, you talk about advocacy as it pertains to me. The first thing I do when I get a spotlight is try to shift it onto others. And that's actually something that I love about myself. It's probably my favorite quality. And I really had to consider why am I so uncomfortable holding this? Why am I actually uncomfortable being the center of attention if the attention is on just me? I can stand up and give a speech. I can help host a rally. I can go out and doorknock for us. And what is. And so when I realized there was something kind of in the ether, when I'd been asked to write this book over and over and over again in different rooms and by different publishers and in different spaces, I was like, okay, well, this is starting to get ridiculous. Like, what am I not looking at? And I had to think about the books that have changed me in these enormous ways. And most of them are memoir. And I. I didn't expect to have that dawn on me. And then I thought, oh, dear God, the memoirs that shape me and that I revisit really are like, take your whole soul out and put it on a platter and organize your bones for people. I'm not going to be able to do the. What a gross term. Celebrity memoir thing. Where I'm like, and then I booked this job and I went to set and it was cold. Like, that's not going to be my. They gave me nuts. And like, you can do that. And I've read some of those and enjoyed them. But I like to be in the marrow of a life. And that was scary because I realized, oh, dear God, I'm really going to write. I'm really going to write the things down. And I've not done that. That was layer, maybe the first two layers. And then the next layer, when I really was doing the thing, was realizing that there were stories I had to write. And I had to write the shit out of them. And I had to write them forensically and go through years of inboxes and text messages and voicemails and things to really make sense of them. And then when they were out, I had to go, this is not all for the world. Maybe part of this was for me so I could really, in the deepest way, understand these experiences. But this doesn't belong to anyone else. This thing actually would be. It would be good for people if I took almost all my experience out of it and just focused on the details that offer context and then what it taught me. You know, it's a really surreal thing. And I think part of the gift of the experience was beginning to understand that while my natural inclination is to be like, you can have everything and you can know everything and I'll answer every question, to go, actually, no, there's a sliding scale here of. This is for me and this is for the world. This is all I need to keep here and they can have all of this and everything kind of in between. And all I have to say is thank you to my therapist. You are worth every non-insurance penny I pay you. I've never covered it. The best ones are never covered. I feel like in a time where we're almost encouraged to overshare, especially in such a digital age, it's really nice to hold something. And it's a really important lesson, I think, for a lot of, like, especially young people to know, like, you don't have to give it all away. Don't. And sometimes before you learn that lesson, I mean, I know this is true for me and you're just participating in the world. Nobody tells you that what you share out of just genuine openness potentially could be the thing that follows you around for the rest of your life. And you're like, hello? No, thank you. You know, you don't really know. You know that stuff. And so I do think given how connected the world is now and how much everything is out there, we do need to start figuring out a practice of what it means to, yes, be open. You don't want to be like a closed off grouchy asshole walking around. But how to be an open person while still protecting some of your own personal space. Yeah. Your person and your privacy. Yeah. That reminds me. I don't know if you read Carrie Fisher's book of her diaries as she was making Star Wars. I haven't. I actually just got it a few months ago. A friend recommended it as kind of inspiration for the writing process. And I was like, great. Yeah. And then I was like, I don't have time to read anything. So I just have this giant stack of books I bought myself in 2026 and I've read two. Well, that's okay. Like, you've been working. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's a really… There's a really good line in that book that I think about all the time where she, like, is reflecting. And she's like 19, I think. And she's like, I waste myself. I, like, will give myself to anyone for anything. And it really… I read that in my early 20s and it reframed a lot of, like, oh, I'm making a conscious choice to share my life with people. Wow. And I shouldn't… Am I wasting myself or am I, like, sharing? Am I wasting or giving? Yeah. And sometimes it's so blurry and hard to see, like, which is which. Yeah. And make that distinction. But I'm glad you did with this. I love them. I love, like, gifting a book over… That's, like, me with The Artist's Way. Yes. Me with it. Yes. You need it. Here, take this. But I love gifting a book. I think it's actually really, like, personal and it's really… I don't know. I think a movie rec is great. I think a book rec, for some reason, is like, oh, you're going to take time. You're really invested in this, too. I'm going to say that's funny because I had to buy my own copy of The Artist's Way. Yes. And that was part of your journey. That was part of your journey. I said, I'm going to find it. Interesting. Interesting. You were like, no, this will be your assignment. You started 10 years ago as The Artist's Way. Have you done it? Is that your tea at all? You know what's really interesting? So, one of my friends who is a phenomenal musician gave it to me. I mean, I was living in Chicago, so this is over 10 years ago. Yeah. And I carried it around in my book bag literally for four straight years. And I kept starting it. Yes. And then work would get crazy and I'd be like, oh, I have to start over. And it really is kind of my white whale. Yeah. Like, I've… I continue to make progress through how far I get into it. And I've never gotten to the end. And I'm like, me and this book, baby, we are just… We're like, we're in the bird spiral. Okay. Something that I also wanted to ask about is how did you think about how much One Tree Held to talk about in the book? Like, how… Yeah. Because that's a part of the book, but it's not the entire focus. No. And that's, I think, a really important thing is… Whatever people know you for in the world is a fraction of who you are, right? And I was writing a book reflecting on 40 years. And that was 10 years of my life, which granted is crazy. It's a quarter of the time I've been alive. Wow. And it's just kind of part of the story. There were times where it was the whole story. Yeah. But it's just a part of it. And so for me, I think it felt really important to… Yes. Contextualize certain things I knew I had to contextualize for an audience. You know, sometimes there's stuff you want to leave out and you go like, well, people already know this, so I don't get that luxury. And what felt important to me was also to be able to talk about it in the things that all these years later are my favorites. from it that aren't necessarily even things that happened on the show and I think it just it gives a fuller lens to the pieces of the life that it was if you will but yeah I mean I'm sure we could do multiple volumes on just stories from set yeah I don't have any interest really in doing that yeah um so to even to talk about all of us girls and what we were doing collectively in 2017 you know five years after wrapping felt so special because it I think it offers people yes information that is probably really interesting but also a reminder that there was so much more to that experience than just what we were filming right yeah yeah what was the best part about playing Brock for you oh honestly how much I had to make myself uncomfortable to play her because in the beginning I was like we can't be doing this and I can't be setting this example and who is this girl what are we this is not yeah yeah and and I had to find a way to like her even though I hated a lot of her scenes and it made me I think more fully human in a way because when you have to push past judge the judgment you instinctively feel when you read something it it it it helped me work that muscle in my life like it has taught me that yes I can judge policy I can judge what's not working in the world I can judge systems but I don't judge people yeah I will I will always hold space to sit and listen I mean granted I have some red lines like fascist in chief is and I'm not having a meeting with him I'm not having a meeting with him but you know in in the world I think working that muscle enabled me to be so curious and it helped me stay open in the way we were talking about earlier in ways I might not have and as Brooke and I got more similar she made me so much more bold um Brooke was definitely I feel like um so many people's queer awakenings thank you yeah no thank you thank you I'm just like I'm curious if you know coming out later in life we're gonna go all over the place yeah did you have any moments where you look back and you're like oh I was queer well here's what's so interesting for me and I think about this a lot obviously but I almost think there's something harder like when you were like oh there were just no all-girl schools in Oklahoma I think there's something harder about coming coming out of this and I think there's something harder about coming out as we know it to be if you are a person who has never thought you were queer or who who grew up in a place where that was not allowed if you grew up super religious like one of my best guy friends who is gay and also an amazing author grew up deeply evangelical in Tennessee like that was not an option for him so there was a lot of struggle I was like madly in love with my French exchange student when I was 16 I grew up in my dad's photo studio everybody was gay like my my uncle Jeff's husband did drag as Diana Ross every Saturday night in West Hollywood like I was like open to it all so in the in the most interesting way speaking of early character queer awakenings your fandom of John Tucker must die like there were people who who were like are you sure you want to like do that scene you and Brittany are gonna do that scene and I was like is everyone dumb like what do you mean we're doing that scene we're doing we're doing the scene you know I've played queer girls and straight girls and bi girls and gay girls I've done the whole thing and I've been what I thought was like very open to whatever whomever would come my way it was never a conversation I felt like I needed to have publicly because it's so it's so oddly declarative to be like by the way also I would kiss this person like I don't want anybody to know who I'm kissing in the first place I've let rumors run wild I've let rumors run wild about me dating some dudes I never dated because I was like now y'all don't know who I'm actually dating like you know I was like whatever like we've never even met I was like okay I remember when I ended my relationship with my ex one of my best friends was like here's the thing I don't think you're bi and I was like like I'm a 40 I'm a 41 year old woman what are you talking about she's like I think you're actually gay and I think I think society is so heteronormative and I think you're very feminine and I think you've you were cast so early as like the hot girl that all the guys wanted to be with that like all all these guys have tried to be with you and I don't think you like them and I was like what what do you mean so so for me it was a really interesting thing because I didn't have the oh that's not an option for me I didn't have the oh that's not an option for me I didn't have the oh that's not an I was like everyone's an option for me bad bitch behavior but maybe a bar very brooke davis of me thank you but then I was like maybe I don't want everybody to be an option and so it's a really interesting thing to to sort of adjust the sliding scale of your percentages and be like hmm and I I'm also open to the fact that maybe it changes throughout your life I also think I don't regret many of the relationships I've been in a few um I I don't know what I do know is that the inevitable thing that always happened was easier to attribute to other things like oh well it's hard for a man to be with a woman who's famous who's a breadwinner who out earns him who gets recognized when he doesn't who you know has a bigger name than he does who like there was so much of like well yeah it would be hard for someone to be with me which is so annoying because it's really saying like I'm hard to love yeah but culture teaches women that we are I think I grew up in the time I did in the way I did in the family I did in the friend group I did in predominantly gay male spaces and so the really interesting thing my mom when I was like surprise I'm I'm with this woman my mom was like I've just never seen you more yourself and she was like I I I'm I'm so surprised and not that you're happy I guess I'm just surprised because you grew up around so many gay people but did we not raise you enough around around enough lesbians did you not see yourself being in this relationship I'm like oh all that stuff that just was well these are just sort of the the difficulties your life presents they don't exist it's not a slog it doesn't take so much work and yeah relationships are work don't get me wrong but it's like I feel like I'm doing a like we're doing a project I'm not like I'm not like doing prison labor with her and like whoa that is different I was like it I think I have the wrong definition of hard I think what I've called hard for my whole life has actually been suffering or suffering adjacent and it doesn't have to be that what a concept yeah I was being like wow oh my gosh um also I wanted to bring up something very important which is our friends Missy and Steven made this video about raspy girl raspy voice girl and gay guy oh and the way that besties yeah it sounds like that's your experience yes in the world yes gay guys flock to your boy and yes gay women and all people actually I'm gonna say me your boy we gotta talk about the boys yes please thank you thank you did you read your audiobook yeah oh of course yeah I did it it would be wrong if you didn't actually no I had to yeah also I love that my publisher was like we've booked five days in studio for you and I said I'll be done in four and they were like not possible and I was like I'm an actor I do ADR I have a podcast like I do this is my job I will be I'll be done in four and I actually finished the book in three days and that's a professional wow that's a professional dream for them they're like say anything you can read the alphabet and be like that is put that right there it's you have a beautiful voice did you always feel that way though um or did you even feel I just put that on you I've honestly always been okay with it I I've sounded like this since I was about 18 I've always been okay with it I've sounded like this since I was about 18 I've sounded like this since I was about 18 I've sounded like this since I was about 18 years old yeah yeah which is crazy you know like you used to get the telemarketer calls and they'd try to pitch me and I'd be like my mom's not here and they were like your mom ma'am and I was like I'm nine like what um it was also sad because back in the days of like the avocado phone you know when prank calls were a thing I couldn't prank call anyone everyone knows it's me like actors loved actors loved the initial COVID lockdown because they could put masks on and go out and be anonymous not me bitch people can hear this behind their ass they'd be like hey and I was like oh my god you know I can't order a coffee yeah like everywhere my voice gives me away sometimes even if my face has not um but I do think it's probably why I watched so many Demi Moore movies as a kid and was like that's my bitch like G.I. Jane was my movie for a time I love Indecent Proposal oh my god that's crazy but I love it by the way obviously I was like that's my chick like I and I yeah I think she just made me feel cool because she's got the rast yeah okay you guys I've been fixated on this idea that I can revive my boring comforter with something that looks like it has any soul at all you know what I mean you know I moved this summer and I'm still looking for the little accessories and details that bring every room together when I laid my eyes on the pinch plea comforter set in several different colors at wafer.com I was like I don't know what to do with it I don't know what to do with it I don't know what to do with it okay now this is the level of sophistication and texture and quality that gives me the perfect amount of lift my home life needs I'm not surprised wafer helps you create a home that stands up to real life with quality products great value and trusted reviews my desk lamp my kitchen cabinet 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back up okay what are some things that you've tried to manage your stressful schedule that have found I don't know does not really work for you well I love my daily mental health walks with Remy but sometimes I need to go non-verbal on my sofa watching romantic comedy you've got mail can revive me but it only does so much you know I could hear how those might not be the solve but something that might help you feel better is starting your morning with rituals stress relief this product uses first of its kind technology to support the body's natural cortisol response so you can take on the daily juggle how does stress relief compare to other stress supplements you've tried or other tools you've tried wow what a great question you know sometimes I call my mom but that doesn't always help sometimes it adds to the stress sometimes it makes it worse girl how long does it make it worse okay well I want to ask you how important is it to you that the ingredients you put in your body are clean in an ideal world yes it's very important to me but you know how hard that can be well I don't know if you knew this but all of rituals products are vegan gmo free and tested for heavy metals and common allergens and stress relief is designed to reduce stress daily over time with consistent use and it's third-party tested for heavy metals and microbes I need to tap in this might heal me don't just grin and bear the stress get stress relief from ritual save 25% off on your first month now at ritual.com slash let me that's ritual.com slash let me for 25% off your first month don't just grin and bear the stress get stress relief from ritual save 25% on your first month now at ritual.com slash let me that's ritual.com slash let me for 25% off your first month these statements have not been evaluated by the food and drug administration this product is not intended to diagnose treat cure or prevent any disease I have to give so much grace for like someone who doesn't have a frontal lobe you know what I mean like the things I've said and done having a frontal lobe and literally being on television and having every dumb thing you did while your brain was scrambled eggs right here like memorialized forever I'm gonna say all I had was snapchat and I'm still humiliated and I'm so like oh my god I'm like thank god my myspace is taken down like yeah I don't know I think there's a lot of I mean we know now because we're grown adult women but like to have this real clarity looking back at a moment of like I was doing the best I could I was young and um feelings are so and you're a lover girl so feelings listen I leave with my heart and sometimes not on my head I don't know every time yeah every time it took me a long time to figure out how to get those on the little balance beam yeah completely wait really quickly on on john I'm curious have you watched hunting wives at all oh my god of course upset we're big fans oh it's the best it's so great and it's it's wild because britney is one of my oldest friends and malin and I have been friends for a really long time and to watch them both just having it's like the blend of perfect drama and in on the joke camp I I'll never get over it I love it so much they seem like they're having so much fun together they are and I'm trying to find out too I'm down to have fun and everyone's wondering they're literally having the time of their lives okay and I'm so happy wait I need you on I need you to go on that show please could you imagine yeah you said to her stride you said listen what I think there's so much you know beauty to be found in the finding yourself in a divorce what's some of the lessons that you've taken with you oh my gosh you know the most kind of profound takeaway and I think we could all use this especially in a world that wants to criticize you for everything you do and everything you don't and by the way we'll tell you you did and didn't do something at the same time and you're like what is it to be brave enough to risk looking foolish so that you do not waste your days in the wrong life is something that I too admire I admire it and anyone who's done it I admire it now in myself because it's not flippant and it's not a quick decision I think when you get to the point and there is a day for everyone where for the umpteenth time the thousandth time the ten thousandth time you say I cannot do this for one more day but finally that's the day that you really you mean it to your toes and you actually change your behavior you actually decide to stop thinking it's gonna be different tomorrow it requires an immense capacity for bravery and also a real reckoning with yourself and a real investigation and and patience with grief because there's grief that comes with it but I also think I think part of the grief you're carrying is the grief for every day that hasn't been what you thought it would be or what you've begged for it to be or what you've worked for it to be before so on the day that you finally put it down it's like you don't have to be sentenced to a dead thing it's okay to outgrow something it's okay to realize you tried really hard but it wasn't right it's okay it's okay to leave something that's really unhealthy or abusive and the day after you put it down is the day the rest of your life starts and it's brave as shit I'm gonna get married just so I can get divorced let me tell you right now let me tell you right now someone please marry me right now oh my god I can't wait for Ben Shapiro to get his hand on that one let's go bitch oh my god that was no that was so beautiful yeah okay well thank you so much for coming on I feel like this was the hardest way for me honestly my diary tonight is going crazy my journal's gonna go insane can I say um and I will tell you mine out now yes out this week and the easiest place for anyone to find it because you know now there's six thousand places and handles and social things we made it simple sophiabushbook.com easy and it will take you to your preferred bookseller it will take you to the audiobook shop at an independent bookstore if you can please and thank you but you know if you can't I'm not gonna judge the Virgo moon in me loves that sophiabushbook.com yeah period you can't yeah you can't fuck it up it's easy okay go do it um thank you so much thanks ladies okay spoiler alert you can see everything the Nathan Fielder Lance Oppenheim movie um if you haven't seen it stop listening right now that includes our engineer we made him so if this if something goes wrong just be an alias I'm not gonna judge you if you can't I'm not gonna judge you if you can't I'm not gonna judge you I lied to him okay so now that we're amongst friends we can talk about her she her she you know who a little miss Amanda Seyfried come with your baddie shame truly so there was a point the first time I saw this movie that I genuinely was like she is the most beautiful woman to ever live like truly like everything about her face was just so beautiful and expressive expressive and not like too done you know like just the right amount of like actress but also like human being yeah so let's set this up so in the movie if you've seen or not whatever it goes from watching from nathan's pov and suddenly we're we're seeing the first clip again on a laptop screen who's watching the movie i mean to say i forget and he is like has this conundrum he's making a movie about elizabeth holmes elizabeth holmes is now in prison her husband is a fucking idiot so now what's gonna happen he shows the footage to amanda and amanda is like you know i have like fantasies all playing her again blah blah blah it was like immediately need them to break up right she said i need them to break up and he's like are you serious she's like of course yeah i can't see any woman in this position la so then she and nathan start on this journey together where they're trying to like reenact some stuff but then also like help her out and she's like i don't know what to do i don't know what to do i don't know what to do help her out and she's like i don't know what to do i don't know what to do get access to elizabeth without billy her husband getting in the way yes let me keep going yeah it was one more thing then amanda says you know i can be pretty convincing like people really open up to me like very like bats her eyelashes like i'm the most beautiful woman in the world and nathan is like okay let's go visit billy and try to get him to let us see elizabeth again yeah a couple quick things i was surprised how long she stayed in this till the very to the bitter end i thought we were just gonna have a almost like funny light-hearted meta cameo moment but she is in she's in the weeds no at some point she becomes like audience proxy slash like co-investigator totally of this um and also really quickly i need an idea on those chic sunglasses she's wearing in their drive to see billy her grin when she looks over at him and he's like she's like does he know i'm coming he was like uh yeah i mentioned it she said well she was like i feel like i'm undercover yeah and he was like do you like that and she was like yeah actors are amazing by the way actors are amazing people and i appreciate their work because you can just see her being like this is a talent of a lifetime like this is character work like what i'm doing now is so far beyond like um reading words on a script what i'm doing now is i'm i'm livening the flesh and when she sees billy she goes you're tall and i mean well there's interesting things to think about billy we'll go to that later um but she's like oh my god i'm how did you feel about her presence in the film i thought it was similar i thought it was going to be like you know kind of a one scene and done like her just watching and being like wow wish i could help you guys but i can't um but then just the way that she and nathan bounce off of each other their chemistry together like both sexual and just like friend chemistry i think is so cool um but also i think that she i think that it adds like the meta narrative of like if you're making a movie about elizabeth holmes or if you're just even thinking about elizabeth holmes you have a because you know she's a pathological liar you know she's like a kook you know that she has those big blue eyes doesn't blink red lip dark eye whatever and we see how amanda has like built a version of elizabeth in her mind that she thinks she knows her has like insight into her what she does but then every time that like insight is challenged by the real woman or like her real life it's funny to watch amanda sort of start to see the real elizabeth but then also revert back to her impulse and instinct about elizabeth because that's kind of where the movie ends right is that she's like i believe that she you know is i feel bad for her but like she is a liar like she shouldn't be in prison you know a woman in prison is sad a person in prison is sad but she did do all of this stuff and nathan is like well she says that she was bullied in prison because of the dropout and she's like no she was bullied because of her own actions yeah you know what i actually did i listened i started to listen to her and i was like oh my god to listen to the dropout podcast that the show is based off of and so one we'll go back to that because i was like oh shit yeah she guilty um so cut that shit last week and i was like like hold on i've been put up in that i can say free her and i can say she's guilty she thinks of me true once well i don't know um but i will say like you were despised already but it really is interesting to watch amanda grapple with her own involvement her own artistic endeavors and the way that she even actively is engaging with this narrative like live on the scene like not just the work she did and it's out and the dropout is just a show and i got paid and i'm over it yeah like her interrogating the way like when um when elizabeth is like you know i can't amanda's show or like i can't believe she i don't want that to ever happen to me again someone to portray me without like essentially my consent while amanda is live portraying her technically with her own actions and i'm over it i'm over it i'm over it i'm over it without her consent in nathan's doc it's it's so funny and meta to watch her work that out in real time and then to watch her kind of almost switch a little bit when she gets defensive at the end she gets defensive because in the very when they start talking about the recreation when they're at when she's like with her horses and like that that goat is tooting or whatever yeah something she says is like you know people will believe it's me because like i like you know that was fiction but like everyone believed it but then when they did come back at that last scene which was very phantom thread by the way by the fire and he is like well she feels like because of your portrayal of her that's why she's being like bullied in prison she's like well that was fiction yeah and that sort of like having it both ways i think is like artistically so interesting but also the human question of can i am i more devoted to my idea of you than what's actually in front of me or than what you're telling me is really interesting on something else that i thought about um upon rewatch is how amanda i mean she just i know people are like oh she can't win an oscar because like this is documentary but in those especially in that final um recreation when she's in prison and her lips are trapped af a24 put me in touch with makeup artist um she is so good she's so good and it was like chilling to me amanda safe read the way that she has elizabeth holmes gate down to a t her kind of stalking sensibility yeah hunched shoulders her tech neck it is so it is fascinating i know let me sit up straight hold on uh it's so you can't not believe it's her you know what i mean i'm watching her being like yeah you convinced me you're elizabeth holmes yeah you did you are her you're a tether that's what you are yeah i it was really yeah i'm i loved her involvement and i i had a debate with someone almost of like is it was it right or wrong it's like that's so beneath us like conversation it's more of like um how interesting for us as a viewer to also something that was fun for me when i re-watched it was this idea of like manipulation of memory like whose memory do we get to trust uh who and what memory can be and how fickle it is just to be alive and then when we were talking about yes her trauma but um i'm not saying what's that tweet that you referenced that she created uh theranos as a trauma response to her rape yes that's a tweet there's a i think movies with like laura dern about sexual assault oh the tail the tail yes fantastic and you know the scene where she's like recreating her sexual so oh it's really good she's like recreating the sexual soul or like remembering it and it changes over and over based on the memory that she thinks she has versus maybe what she was told she had and i thought that of i felt a version of this when in real time nathan would make edits to be like actually that's not what she said it might have been oh to the script not something yeah so or the idea that she was like even the new york times conversation of the character i created versus a character that you you or they created yeah and so it's like who whose memory do we trust and it's so fascinating fun to to not know sometimes yeah well i think that is why i've seen a lot of people say that it's like this is not journalism or this is like kind of cosplaying investigative journalism and obviously i'm like well duh it's not journalism this is not a question this movie is not about like is she a liar did she do it yeah she is and she did but it's more of like how far is she willing to take this and how i truly believe that she is lying but like we'll convince her that she's not lying completely because there was even a moment when she is explaining the chemistry of the device and i'm working on a hung up post about this like all the questions and i was like this is what i would ask her after this movie has come out because it's like okay so if you had the device but the device didn't have the like chemistry capability of making all these tests then why were you running tests on a siemens machine like this is so like stupid watergate like duh there's so many it's more about like just the strangeness of this person and also how many lies there are about her i was like looking through some old i don't know like archival stuff about elizabeth holmes and there was a theory that her eyes weren't really blue and i was like wait are her eyes blue no they're totally blue like people are like she's wearing blue contacts all the time and like her childhood photos have her show her with brown eyes and like that's not true at all yeah but it's like when someone lies so much and they're so like convincing in some ways um just they're not even what they're saying but like their self-regard can make you almost trust them yeah yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna pivot yeah um i do need to say something Goes out to the lovers out there. If you know, you know. Obviously. Billy Evans and Elizabeth Holmes are bad people they're wrong they they're fake but when Elizabeth Holmes was like so our interpretation of God me and Billy our interpretation of God it actually isn't God it's love um that was real as fuck and I'm gonna say who was that actually saying it Amanda that was another creation that's how powerful she was yeah it really like genuinely moved me I was like of course that's what I'm saying that scene was so good but also do you wanna I wanna say a word about Billy saying that Elizabeth believes that like she'll be remembered most for their love which devotion yes and monuments of love they're building monuments of love to each other um which is completely crazy but also like that is effectively what's happened because I watched this and I'm like they are I'll be your shotgun rider till the day I die till the day I die if I say 26 Bonnie and Clyde and the way wait also so many like little things on rewatch that I forgot Billy being strapped at the meeting he'd be like oh I gotta carry a gun now cause you never know what's up and where what did that meeting take place camera pulls out at a WeWork WeWork everything wrong goes down at a WeWork know that including me getting wasted in 2019 it's like the Robert Pattinson nesting dolls of scams like oh my god the Enron the WeWork the all I was like oh there are levels to this show yeah the theater started cracking do you think that Billy is gay or just a cuck or like what is going on with him I've tried to forget the scene where we just see actually everyone is so gagged about that flaccid penis scene of him in the shower and like how long we stay on it but actually it was more disturbing to me the scene right before it where he's at the gym like doing like hip thrust and grunting in my face like that what do you think that's like that's all about well I think on rewatch I was just so it was kind of funny to me that it's like this is such like a shower in the home of someone with small children because like the shower has like toys in it and yeah kids bathrooms like they they play with toys in the tub whatever but it was just such a reminder that like these are two crazy people who are also like forced into this like sort of domestic drama of playing of being parents together and the parenthood part of it is you know really really sad obviously because she's about to go to prison and she's like breastfeeding but still the fact that these two people are raising kids with an iguana on the table a monitor lizard whatever sorry to misgender but whatever that thing is the python in the back what the hell it was it was really yeah okay so one of my friends said that he has a friend who went to MIT with Billy and I was like I'm so curious what Billy's ambition was because he seems like such a wife guy in the way that like he needs a woman to like give structure and shape to his life because who would he be without Elizabeth nothing he'd just be like a rich kid yeah but in that way I think that he's also like they're both they're both like marionette dolls for each other in some way and I'm gonna say the real and true and brave thing what which is that Charlie from Girls completely miscast completely miscast completely and who should it have been I think we have different thoughts with Armie Hammer okay I hear that I see that he said me too he's like I'm looking for a job his Jamaican friend just entered the room but I also hear me out on this Jesse Eisenberg hear me out I think something in specifically Billy when I think about Billy's very likely cocaine addiction and when and the speed in which he talks well at that point Justin Timberlake Justin Timberlake like let's just bring let's just bring in Mac Daddy I just have all three it just changes each time that would be so funny it would just change each time because like who is this man you know fucking Billy Evans um fucking Billy Evans like I know him but I don't know why I was like I could see I mean again I don't know I don't know this man but like I do know a lot of gay guys that do cocaine and some that use different drugs that I won't mention right now and I was like and that's him and that's how Sue sees it because you know Billy I saw you mentioned at 11 oh yeah you do coke but you said it wasn't a strip club it was 11 it was 11 Nathan is like what are you talking about now you're rambling about like it's more of a performance space or people are performing yeah it's like they have strippers there but like they're more dancers and I want to just say to let our audience in behind the curtain imagine me sitting passenger princess in our combo with Teffy you guys talking about 11 and then that very week we go so you can see everything and I'm like 11 11 it's 11 in the theater it's like look he went there to see me yeah imagine me and Billy Evans at the same nightclub nightclub not strip club yeah and something I noticed is I started counting the seconds in between when he would blink there's so many moments when Billy wouldn't go without blinking for over 7 seconds well no one blinks in that family it's just like they nod there it's something it's so odd it's very Clovis if there are any v-pads in the room um I want to sitting on the corner to I do that like just when Hunter's like mad at me or something just so she knows I'm on her team v-preference anyway um do you think about the New York Times quote controversy oh wait there's an update I didn't know that what is it can you tell me basically um the New York Times the writer who wrote that story is only with the Times but they did an interview with her and she was like we everything that every conversation we had was on the record this was a conversation we had while I was walking with Elizabeth we were walking their dog um "and she had said this and the whole article if you go back and reread that section especially it's about the performance of her playing this like uh business girl basically and how Sunny Balwani um her boyfriend at the time the co-chairman of the board or vice chairman of the board if Theranos um would want her to like not get in a lot of sleep to lower her voice to wear the turtlenecks like all of that stuff was Sunny trying to make her into someone that like men would take seriously um right and so in this the whole article is about like building that character that's not really her which is why the quote controversy it's like just her putting a finer point on it but the whole story is ultimately about that which I think is interesting but on rewatch they're reading that story in bed Billy and Elizabeth and Billy is like you would never have said you didn't say that and she's like yeah I would never have said that um which I think is largely a play but I do think in some ways that the um Nathan makes a point that it's really important if you guys have audio which they claim that they have audio of every single moment that you know if if you have audio this is really important to the documentary because that will you know could exonerate you from telling this one lie but then I also think in a different way that moment that same like kind of structure comes back whenever Nathan is like I you know Elizabeth hates that photo of her and Billy's like no she doesn't and Nathan's like wait no she said that in our conversation he's like no she didn't I don't remember that whatever it's like that's how fucking that's how much of liars they are liars unless they don't remember their lies can't keep up with their lies literally and it's like oh everything that Nathan said why the New York Times quote was important is why that photo conversation was important because she was weeping sobbing getting her full body scanned to read her books to read channels of her books but it was actually just so Billy could parrot her to investors whatever um and it's like oh so they are also like A. inconsistent liars they don't even have their own stories to write with each other they just truly I don't it's unreal to me yeah how did you feel about the final scene of Nathan and Elizabeth in the water jumping through the crashing waves together the way we were if I could sing I would sing it the Barbra Streisand song oh oh oh I thought you were like doing a bar like a bit or something like that like no not a bit just how I am that's true that is how you are what did you think of it did you did it strike you as romantic with your big big heart of course yeah of course it did when in the cold water together and I don't really there's just something about the two of them together makes me believe in love really well that's that's kind of I really like the WeWork scene because it's like it feels like a romantic comedy it feels like two guys like duking it out over this woman yeah but I really think that I think that's I think Billy's a cuck I think Billy's a little gay I think he's a cuck and I think he is on cocaine yeah I also think he got jaw implants and that's why that's why part of why his jaws were so swollen I thought it was heroin but well at least right here at the very least but there's probably a ton of things yeah yeah but yeah I don't know something about their connection was so I wonder what the card said to her that he wrote to her when he gave her her final gift to before she went to prison oh yeah well also I have this written down in my notebook but in that scene which I counted the seconds it's 28 seconds that they're that they're waiting when like that they're having eye to eye right eye fucking you could say eye making love and he she's just like nodding the whole time which is like oh wow and he's just like okay okay okay and then she's does she say something like you can do this or something like that yes I'm like girl you're going to prison and you're saying you can do this to the man and he was making a movie about you, That's kind of love. So that's going to be love. Hey, universe, I want that. And I said I wanted that last week and everyone, look, look, knives out. I didn't say I wanted him, for the record. I said I want that kind of love to find me. Not the prison part, but I want to be imprisoned by how much I love somebody and how much they love me like that. But the Nathan Fielder stuff, no, we both will be watching Nathan for you. I'm keeping my hat so I was like this too. We were watching Nathan for you. That is a goofy dude in a way that I'm like, girl, Hunter hates a trick, a bit, a roast, a little joie de vivre. No, but I remember one time Hunter got all strange about being like, oh, I couldn't deal with goofies. Just too goofy, he's got too much going on. Nathan Fielder though? He's not that goofy. It's like more, it's like we're laughing together. No, bro. I'm with her, listen, but I'm not with her. The baddest bitch you know right now being like, yeah, Nathan Fielder. This group, this group of girls are going to kill me. What did I say? He's a curious man and they're a dying breed. Hunter was like, earlier she was like, oh, like he asked so many questions. I was like, imagine how many questions a woman asks. Now imagine that. Is there just one? What are you trying to do? Nathan Fielder. I would say Nathan Fielder's a bit Tig Notaro. We're wrapped. We're done. I'm done. I'm actually done. I'm done. I'm getting, I'm done. Let me say this. Let me say this. Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, Global Fashion News and Features Director at Vogue and co-host of the Run Through podcast. Each week on the show, our listeners get an all-access pass into the world of Vogue. On Tuesdays, join me as I interview influential designers like Calvin Klein, Rachel Scott, and Simone Bellotti. On Thursdays, join Chloe Mao, head of editorial content at Vogue US, and Choma Nadi, British Vogue's head of editorial content, as they explore fashion through the lens of culture with guests like Doja Cat and Margot Robbie. Listen and watch the Run Through with Vogue wherever you get your podcasts and Vogue's YouTube channel.