Speaker 1Hi friends, dropping in here with a little note about the Big Ideas on Big Stages Masterclass which teaches you exactly how to build influence and create change. This free one-hour training is for you, the change maker. We explore exactly what TEDx, book publishers and media alike are all on the lookout for as well as how to navigate that ecosystem of influence, tame your big ideas and how to build an influential network to really open doors and attract opportunities. It's free, it's 60 minutes and you can register and access it immediately. You can access it via the link in the show notes below. Now this workshop also comes with a free fact sheet template which you know that I love and talk about all the time as well as the Thought Leadership Playbook. Links as well are included in there to the Big Ideas mini-series which are included in this Spotify or Apple podcast if you scroll back far enough which you may have already listened to but if you are new around here, the Big Ideas mini-series is a number of episodes specifically designed for Thought Leadership PR. So go sign up, register, have a bit of fun and don't forget if you want to jump straight into the Hack Your Own PR course, you can do that right now. It is live on demand and you can become your own publicist in just four minutes. The course is a wonderful resource. It's generated thousands of media headlines and it's just $500. All right guys, let's jump in. Welcome to the Hack Your Own PR podcast where I chat with journalists, editors, producers and publicists about the commonly misunderstood world of PR and how you can nail your next pitch. I'm your host, Edette Barry, publicist, PR mentor and founder of the Hack Your Own PR program. The teachers, entrepreneurs, how to DIY their PR. This podcast is recorded on Bundjalung country. I acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land.
Speaker 2It really helps when the pitch is curated towards you rather than a sort of generic pitch and you know there are some sort of signs that you can quite easily tell in a pitch you know that is clearly not. Curated for a particular person. Another thing is having a prior understanding of what your sort of focus is like what I've probably written about in the past or you know the sort of things that are suited for our audience.
Speaker 1Welcome back to Hack Your Own PR. In this conversation, we are unpacking strategies with none other than Callum Jasper who is a brilliant media writer at the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. With a career that's shaped by curiosity and a knack for finding the untold story, Callum has carved out a unique voice in journalism navigating the ever-evolving media landscape and a lot of Murdoch stories with sharp insight and wit. In this conversation, we delve into the nuances of the Australian media landscape covering everything from the art of pitching, the rise of podcasts and even balancing between accessibility and in-depth reporting. Callum also shares his thoughts on what makes a great media interview, how he evaluates experts and what kind of stories resonate most with readers of Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. If you are a content creator, a thought leader, an industry expert or just someone keen to understand the inner workings of these pages, this episode is for you. If you are a content creator, a thought leader, an industry expert, or just someone keen to understand the inner workings of these pages, this episode is for you. This episode is for you. This episode is packed to the brim with practical advice, so I hope you enjoy the listen. Well, thank you so much for coming and jumping on the podcast. I feel like I've been chasing you around the internet for a while. So now our schedules have aligned and here we are.
Speaker 2I know we had a bit of bad luck, mostly on my part, and I apologize for that, but we're here and I'm happy to be here and thank you for having me.
Speaker 1Oh, it's the nature of. It's the nature of our very unpredictable workflows, I think, so it all makes sense. So look, I think I first connected with you when you were at Mumbrella, you know, longer there, obviously. Do you want to tell us a little bit about your career and how you got to this fabulous role?
Speaker 2Yeah, so I've been at The Herald and The Age for almost 20 months, maybe it's coming up to two years at the start of June. I started in journalism at Mumbrella in 2021 when I returned from living in London for a few years where I was unsuccessful in breaking into the industry over there. I studied a master's degree and, you know, did media and communications, a couple of sort of journalism courses, media law and those kind of things. And yeah, it was sort of during the pandemic as it was here as well. But it was. It was a pretty depressing time over there. So it got to the start of 2021 and I just thought it's time to pull the plug. So I managed to get a flight back here when they were quite rare at that time and just started looking for jobs really when I got back here. And I was connected with my old boss at Mumbrella, Damien Francis. You know, we had a chat. We sort of spoke about this position that had come up. It was just the sort of entry-level journalist. At Mumbrella, for context, I wrote my master's thesis on the functions of the BBC's policies to regulate impartiality at the broadcaster in the UK. So media was a big interest of mine. You know, I sort of thought media and marketing, that's quite a good fit. They obviously, Damien and my former editor, Olivia Crimmel, obviously thought I was up for the job. But in whatever capacity. And yeah, I was lucky enough that they allowed me to stay in Melbourne rather than relocate to Sydney where the rest of the team was. That was sort of quite important to me at that time because I'd just moved back from living in sort of this grim set up in London. So yeah, that's sort of where it started. I remember going in like seriously green on the media and marketing industries. I mean, more on the marketing side, I remember. Yeah. Last day, I was assigned a story about something. I think it was World Vision was requesting agencies pay a tender fee to pitch for their, I can't remember, was their media or creative account. And they were like, oh, can you do a story on this? And just like furiously Googling what a pitch was and what it, like, so yeah, that's sort of where it started. And, you know, over the course of about 18 months at Mumbrella. I went through a number of roles and then at a certain point I was approached by the Herald and Age to sort of come in and replace Zoe Samios, who had done my role for a few years and was moving over to the AFR, where she currently is now. And here we are.
Speaker 1Yeah. That fascination with the media landscape and the marketing domain has been a consistent thread. Tell me why the BBC. Like, why was your focus there? Did you study in the UK or here?
Speaker 2Yeah. So, oh, just correcting myself. It wasn't 18 months. It was about almost two and a half years at Mumbrella. I did an undergrad degree in Australia. I grew up in the UK while I moved to Melbourne when I was nine. Yeah. So I sort of always felt this sort of sense of split allegiances, you know, a bit of a personality dilemma. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How am I British? How am I Australian? So I finished my undergraduate degree and in my early 20s, I just thought, look, I've got to go try living there. I've got the passport, obviously. I had a couple of my best friends from high school were living in London. So I just thought, look, I'll give it a crack, see if that's for me. And eventually ended up deciding to do a postgrad there, which is only one year. compared to what it is here so it's probably a bit of an easier task to tick off so um yeah that was
Speaker 1it yeah right awesome and i guess that context was probably quite helpful when you're navigating your role these days so tell us a little bit about the role at city morning herald in the age as a media writer what uh does that entail yeah so i i think
Speaker 2it's you know it's sort of constantly evolving and the the role itself is probably quite different to what it was when i started i mean probably the biggest change a few months into the job was removing our monday media section that was sort of when i arrived that was very much like you know the financial review the city morning herald in the age and the um the australian would all run their media pages in the paper on a monday so you'd end up working sort of split weekends you'd work the sunday just to get all your stories over the line make sure everything was sweet and sound but what that also meant was that you were sort of backlogging your week or like sort of backloading your week, I should say, so that you've got enough content to fill what was for then two pages in the paper. I think the sort of decision was made that this was quite a maybe old-fashioned way of producing news for a number of reasons. You know, stories are so sort of dependent now on where they get a spot on the website. And if you've got three media stories going out in one go, it's fairly unlikely that you're going to get a good spot for each of them. And also what ends up happening is, you know, in order to fill those pages, you end up chasing stories that you might not otherwise do so on merit.
Speaker 1Based on timing.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly. So I think, you know, and you'll probably see a bit of the same with the financial reviews media section. They've since sort of semi-recently removed their Monday media page. We've sort of tried to move to a, you know, less is more model. And I don't think that's just limited to the media section here. It's across the whole paper, across the business section, which I sit in, which is, yeah, I guess just putting more resources into fewer stories to ensure that they're of a better standard.
Speaker 1Which is like a luxury and also a challenge, no doubt. I think that, you know, having the time and space to research and explore, as you said, is also the rabbit warren of exploration as well.
Speaker 2Yeah. I mean, as you know, we were just talking before we hit the record button. I mean, it can end up being quite a stressful thing because, you know, you can spend so long looking at a story that you might find interesting and then it sort of, you know, ends at a bit of a dead end. And in the meantime, something else has been going on that you've been completely oblivious to with your sort of tunnel vision on. But, you know, it has, it has its positives and it has its negatives, but usually the payoff is worth it.
Speaker 1Yeah, totally. And so in terms of like your own personal, like boundaries, flow, how you like to work, what does that look like for you?
Speaker 2I mean, sort of, I guess, practically, I like coming into the office. I sort of, you know, as I mentioned, I lived in Melbourne for the two and a half years I was at Mumbrella, which was at home, firstly because of the pandemic. And then secondly, you know, the owners of Mumbrella had an office in the Melbourne CBD, but there wasn't really much reason for me to go in there because there was no actual Mumbrella colleagues there. So it meant that, you know, I would go a full week of just like, not really talking to anyone in person, which was quite funny. And sort of since starting this job, I was like, okay, I want to come into the office every day, which is nice. I don't know. I don't know if I really have like a sort of workflow. I feel like more stuff happens in the afternoon in terms of like productivity, but then frustratingly, it'll get to like 5.30 and be like, oh God, I want to get home and get a start on dinner. So that sometimes doesn't sort of align with my productivity, but that's okay.
Speaker 1As long as it gets done, right?
Speaker 2Yeah. We have the right to switch off. So, you know.
Speaker 1Which is fantastic and so unbelievably necessary. So tell us a little bit about your domain and like the key focus areas that you have as a media writer. Like obviously there's traditional media as a like focus, but there's also like the emergence of like the podcasting domain and its increasing influence. Tell me a little bit about like where you see your content themes and focus areas.
Speaker 2Yeah. Well, I mean, it really depends if you're to sort of look at it like a bit of a pie chart. I mean, like a huge amount of the stuff we write is about, you know, the likes of the ABC, News Corp, our own company Nine, because those are the sort of brands that consumers or readers are, particularly our sort of readers where it's the sort of broad brush of the Australian public are most interested in and recognize most. And I think they've also got individuals that, you know, are more recognizable, you know, the likes of Kim Williams or the people who you see on the ABC every night, particularly with some of those sort of more older audiences. And then obviously this guy called Rupert Murdoch, who seems to write pretty well with our audience. But then, you know, you've got pretty much this sort of whole other side of just like things that happen or, you know, like, for example, this week, I worked with a couple of colleagues in Canberra on a story about, you know, sort of translating the sort of manosphere model that Trump was so successful with in the US election to Australia. Would it work? You know, how is that going to play out in our local election? So, yeah, you know, obviously things like podcasting are increasingly happening. Podcasting, it's not really new, though, is it? It's obviously gained in sort of popularity, but it sort of feels like it's reached a bit of a bit of a, peak. So I think those sort of broad brush pieces about like, you know, the podcasting industry or like what's happening in regional media, they don't really do so well. I think it's always got to have some sort of news hook on it. But, you know, that they're also sort of great pieces to sort of flesh out a lot of the stuff that for us might not reach the threshold for its own standalone story. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1And you recently did the piece about Triple J's milestone. And were there anything throughout that investigation that surprised you about where Triple J is at? Not really. I
Speaker 2mean, I've sort of thought the conversation about Triple J has always been sort of quite one dimensional and everyone that sort of offers their view of it offers their view with a sort of, I guess, of what their own relationship with Triple J is or has been. I mean, I know what mine was. I would like listen to it, you know, while I was driving to work at 6am when I was 18 or 19 or something, which is sort of like the sweet spot for Triple J. I think, you know, some people who I spoke to, like Will Anderson, for example, was quite good at sort of communicating this idea of basically just like, fuck the room. This is not what we should be thinking about when we're talking about a radio station or what should now sort of be looked at as a media brand for young Australians, because it's something that no one else has across the world. I mean, I'm certainly guilty of, you know, looking at things through a ratings perspective, but that's because that is a good metric for commercial radio stations. So it's sort of finding a balance.
Speaker 1What would you, and I'm sure you've heard this before, but what would you, I'm like going completely off script here, but like, what would be parameters that you think would be a meaningful metric of success for a public broadcaster?
Speaker 2I mean, you have to find a balance, right? You have to be doing, as Anderson said, you sort of, you have to be doing something that is a point of difference from the commercial networks. Commercial networks obviously have a sort of imperative to follow, you know, what the audio audience wants and what does well commercially, because that's, you know, the sort of purpose of those companies. But I think you've also got to strike a balance with offering a service to enough Australians that it's worthwhile. So, you know, if you've got a service like Triple J, which is not being listened to by their target demographic in the numbers that you would, I mean, this is not even like the numbers have gone down across all radio. Like I think I was in this piece, I quoted the, the ratings share in the 18 to 24 demographic, which is sort of the sweet spot for Triple J and sort of what its actual mandate is, is like completely dire. It's about like three or 4%. So I think striking a balance between those two things, it's like you're providing a really great public service and something that is informing Australians or Australians that they can actually get elsewhere. And, you know, you're also doing that by promoting Australian artists, Australian culture, and fostering that whole sort of ecosystem, but also in a way that is what your audiences want, rather than just being like, this is what you want. Sort of having a bit of feedback with your listeners as well. And keeping in mind that it's not just the listeners. I mean, we saw this with the recent decisions about the line up at ABC Radio Sydney. There was a lot of uproar from the station's loyal listeners over, you know, the dismissal of Sarah McDonald and Simon Marnie. I think, you know, striking a balance between, because there was some of the sort of stuff that came out about ABC Sydney staff where they said, oh, look, we know our audience. We know what our listeners like. And you have to sort of think about that through the lens of, yes, obviously, you know, you have to do whatever you can to to keep your loyal listeners happy, but for a public broadcaster, you're not like a commercial radio station where you do what your listeners want your audience is everyone because that's everyone who's everyone's paying for it the Australian public's paying for it so you kind of have to balance that it's not just like we have this audience and we need to serve them it's like we need to keep them in mind but we also need to keep everyone else in mind
Speaker 1yeah which is like you know when you're speaking to everyone you're speaking to no one that lovely challenge when you look at like say the BBC for example and the ABC are there things that you think the BBC are doing really well that the Australian landscape could be taking lessons from
Speaker 2they're quite similar in a lot of ways but they're also quite different in a lot of ways I would say it's a bit of a obvious answer but I mean the BBC is it's sort of transforming into this sort of global media organization like you know they've got BBC studios in Australia bought up a local production house last year and the way that they're sort of commercializing a lot of their sort of IP has been really interesting to see as a way of I guess bringing in new revenue without detracting or changing the product for consumers and for the public so obviously the big thing and the point of difference that the the ABC and the BBC have is that they don't serve ads and I think that is like sort of not to be understated as a point of difference in in modern media it's just about the only place you can go and not see any ads so a big part of that has been sort of commercializing the rights to to Bluey and I think you know it's commonly sort of been pointed to as one of the one of the great what ifs at the the ABC if they had you know obviously they commissioned this show in Australia but allowed the BBC to to run off with the the commercial rights to Bluey which is you know you look at the the BBC's annual report um the last few years and they sort of you know I can't remember it's something like two billion pounds in revenue that they write from their commercial the commercial side of the business and every time they say this is largely down to the success of Bluey. So we've got this sort of Australian made Australian you know this iconic Australian brand that's sort of you know largely owing to the the expanding success of the BBC I mean the show was it because they licensed it to um Disney plus around the world.
Speaker 1What a bloody disaster though. Yeah. What a disaster.
Speaker 2So they licensed it to Disney plus and it was the number one show in America in 2024 the number one mainstream show across any category which is just like phenomenal.
Speaker 1Yeah because every parent has got it on repeat with like every episode being viewed like 400 times
Speaker 2each. Yeah it's amazing.
Speaker 1Wow wow okay so some lessons.
Speaker 2But the ABC are to be clear they are pushing into that sort of area. Yeah. Like most things Australia's a few years behind.
Speaker 1Yeah which is you know the girt by sea can't really be an excuse. Anymore with the internet age isn't it. Yeah. Okay so tell me you sort of touched on the News Corp stories and ABC really tickling the audience fancy. What do you know about this subset of the FMH audience that you're speaking to in terms of who they are and what they expect of you?
Speaker 2Look it really depends really I mean I don't get a lot of like direct feedback from the audience I just see. Sort of what stories do well and what what don't and so on and so forth I think they don't have any expectations of me they're they love me and they're happy with whatever I do.
Speaker 1Oh they absolutely adore you yes of course. So tell me what sorts of issues and topics do they get most excited about?
Speaker 2Any sort of example of sort of politics coming into media is quite interesting. Well not politics coming to media but the sort of intersection of those two things both on the sort of left side of politics and on the right side of politics so they love to know as I said what's happening at Sky News how that media company is sort of transforming in a in a sort of modern media environment as I said anything to do with the Murdoch's obviously you know there's this sort of obsession on the left side of media and politics. And culture and society about you know this sort of mythical man Rupert Murdoch who is obviously Australian but not really anymore he still likes to sort of talk about himself as an Australian despite being an American citizen and I guess on the other side you know we I wrote a story last week about the sort of backroom drama happening at Guardian Australia in their Canberra bureau recently and you know that one. Went sort of bonkers with our audience as well because I think the audience probably align a bit more closely with the likes of I would say there's probably quite a lot of crossover between someone who reads the Sydney Morning Herald and the Age and the Guardian and the ABC as opposed to you know someone who's reading the Sydney Morning Herald is probably not reading the Daily Mail or the Daily Telegraph for example.
Speaker 1Do you find that there's a level of. Nervousness with your industry peers when you're in a media room that people are like. I'd like to think
Speaker 2so but I don't think so. I mean it doesn't happen as often as I would like because obviously I live in Melbourne so I think you know sometimes people will say that just to sort of pump up your tires a bit but probably not.
Speaker 1Oh so good. So tell me a little bit about the planning and preparation. And rabbit holes that you peruse. How do you sort of I guess like navigate like finding talent finding stories and identifying you know who is an expert who is the most qualified person to be commenting.
Speaker 2Yeah I mean a lot of that stuff like the newsroom itself is a great source. I mean that's something that you didn't have when I was at a smaller publication like Mumbrella. And something that I've sort of come to try and harness a lot more over this time instead of like even if you know initially you're a bit nervous or shy or doing just doing a call out on the age slack channel or the city when it held slack channel being like does anyone have the number for this person or blah blah blah or you know speaking to people who have covered that topic before and asking them for a bit of advice. Also speaking to you know subjects of the story that you're already writing about. Is really handy. And then as well like I'm really bad with emails like emails are not my thing which is really probably a bad admission as a journalist. But like my phone is sort of my tool when communicating with people. Obviously you know like every journalist would say you just get so many emails from so many different things that quite often it's hard to sort of sift through them. But. Your email inbox is you know quite a good sort of resource when you're trying to build a story just for contacts for you know past releases about a thing that obviously wasn't super relevant for a story at the time but then sort of adds a bit of context to it over time when you're you're looking at something else. So I think the combination of those things. But I mean I find that the most effective sort of resource is just speaking to people over the phone. You know. You get so much more done with a 10 minute call than you do you know sort of skirting around it for however long.
Speaker 1Yeah I think like I'm you know a needy extrovert who can't get enough conversations into my life. So you know I think like the transformative value of a phone chat over an email. But then at the same time as you say like yes the inbox is a shit show that's very hard to stay across. Yeah. But it does act as like you know like your search function. Yeah. I'll become like you know it's just a catalogue of everything that you could possibly need really. Yeah. And so for people that maybe are like a you know established expert in a niche that they've been working in the trade of like media and marketing and they you know maybe are a well-known. Entity to the industry but maybe not a public persona or profile. What's the best way for them to build a relationship with you knowing that your email is what it is. What advice would you have for them. You know that if they have like you know deep insight on particular subject matter.
Speaker 2I don't think there's any one way. I mean I think like I have a lot of. Good relationships with a lot of comms and PR people across the industry and I think they can be a really good caveat knowing what you do and knowing. what obviously their clients do one thing that i really appreciate when people do they go oh look this i know this isn't for you just now but you know what could be handy along the line to have in your inbox or you know sending me a sort of brief profile of someone and say look i've got this client they're keen to you know get their voice out there a little bit if you have any stories on you know these kind of things coming along there could be an interesting voice to to have in there and then you know eventually that will sort of fit the bill for something that i'm working on or maybe it won't or maybe it will and when you make that connection then they often say something very helpful or insightful or help you sort of view something that you've been as we said in the rabbit hole about from a different perspective and then you know sort of sticks in your mind from there on out that you know obviously you don't want to use the same people over and over again but then quite often you'll call them up and say hey i've got a question for you and i'd love to hear what you've got to say about it and then you know sort of sticks in your mind from there on out that you know obviously you don't and you'll be like oh well you know you're the
Speaker 1go-to person totally and how open are you to coffee dates with emerging voices that have those perspectives versus jumping on the phone
Speaker 2i prefer phone first of all just because coffee dates as we've experienced trying to set up this podcast as during busy periods as a journalist i feel i can often let people down because you know something will happen i've got to you know immediately file a story and it can be a little bit hard to sort of commit to to plans during the day sometimes so that's not to say that i don't like meeting people for coffee and i think it's much more valuable meeting someone in person than over the phone i think you can sort of make a great deal more progress in getting to know each other face to face than you can over the phone but just from a pure sort of practical sense it's sort of eventuates that phone conversations work a little bit
Speaker 1better yeah totally i think also like travel time is also an annoying yeah despite the like lovely connection magic that happens so talk us through you know someone that has a story idea or they are you know expert led that can comment on emerging issues what sort of information do you need to know in an email pitch that will help you ascertain the caliber of the talent or the quality of an idea what are you looking for
Speaker 2look it really helps when two things i guess when the pitch is curated towards you rather than a sort of generic pitch and you know there are some sort of signs that you can quite easily tell in a pitch you know that is clearly not curated for a like you know won't say anything in the sort of subject of the email like your name or sort of any sort of personalized message or anything like that and the other thing is sort of having a sort of prior understanding of what your sort of focus is like what i've probably written about in the past or you know the sort of things that are suited for our audience those two things really help because it sort of shows me that you know the the the the the the the the the the the the this person has actually put like a bit of a bit of effort into sort of meeting me halfway and then i don't also this is probably a bit selfish but then i don't have to feel like i'm you know being a bit of a a dick and just like sort of brushing it off or letting that person down when when i'm sort of you know trying to explain that's not really what our audience is interested in so i think also yeah just just giving you giving me a call as well always helps because i find sometimes you can sort of spend so much time going over a pitch for a story that maybe comes across a little bit you know like it just helps to explain it i'm not the smartest person so it helps to explain it very simply as well uh reasonably and i think that sort of helps as well because i can tend to sort of try and overcomplicate it and i think that's a really good way of doing it i think that's a really good way to do it and i think that's a really good way to do it stories as well when quite often you know you you know get your editor to take a look at it when you're sort of struggling with something or a colleague and they just go oh like this is so much more simple than you're trying
Speaker 1to make it such a luxury to have someone to be able to put eyes over something and
Speaker 2exactly and just give you a second opinion yeah so i think that really helps like just having a conversation about it and like i think sometimes you know you may not catch me at a time where i'm not able to do it but i think that's a really good way to do it and i think that's where i have the the time to sort of have that conversation but i will always try and sort of come back when i have a second or um you know follow it up but i think yeah that that always
Speaker 1helps and in terms of the sorts of experience or qualifications that you're looking for is there any like markers that help establish the authority for you in
Speaker 2terms of like interview subjects or what do you mean yeah so if
Speaker 1you're you know trying to ascertain whether some you you might have three experts who could comment on an issue without knowing what they're going to say but looking at their background and experience are there certain experience that helps you ascertain whether they're going to be a good fit for the issue that you have
Speaker 2no i don't think so i think also like talking to people just really helps give a pretty easy read on you know how qualified they are to talk about something i don't think you have to have a necessary qualification or experience on something i think it's it's pretty easy to tell when someone knows what they're talking about and also you know it sort of helps when you're speaking to someone else or you're speaking to a colleague you're speaking to a sort of source of yours you sort of say oh who would you say is a good talking head or expert on this issue and they'll say oh well i've had good experience with this person or this person's really switched on there was a story i wrote recently where i had to speak i was that sort of needed an academic voice for the story and one of my editors said oh you should speak to this academic i find that you know with these sort of more hot button issues to sort of use that phrase this this person is usually a sort of leveled and measured head on the topic so you know i called them up and you know got
Speaker 1exactly what i needed so good and how often would you be like do you have any kind of and and i'm guessing like from things that you have said but like any personal like goals for yourself in terms of making sure you're talking to new people and sources and not necessarily as the expert for this particular story but more on background in terms of like getting out there and chatting with people i wish
Speaker 2i did i wish i could say i had no problem set goals but i'm not very good with that stuff i think i sort of like to imagine that i that i sort of have a structure for these things and i had a you know fantastic 10-year plan for my life and my career but
Speaker 1you're just trying to get through four pages each night it's sort of
Speaker 2you know i i you know have these grand plans at the start of every year and then you know two weeks in and you're chasing some story and you're like oh i haven't looked at that spreadsheet in a
Speaker 1while yeah yeah i get it okay so feedback ideas for um making for a great media interview is there any things that people do that you're just like ah don't do that or things that would really make for a great conversation
Speaker 2oh that's a tough one i think yeah just being it's sort of a cliche answer but just like being quite genuine and talking and quite sort of conversational terms i find is sort of the best thing and then that i think that gives the reporter in my instance a lot of sort of a lot to work with in a sense when you're not sort of using these really jargony terms and sort of over complicating a subject i mean i think that the thing i struggled with most when i started at this newspaper compared to my umbrella was really sort of shifting my mind set to like not presuming knowledge on a subject yeah that's
Speaker 1a big shift like going from trade talking to trade to yeah
Speaker 2i mean it's almost like as sort of different ends of the spectrum as as you could go because while it is the business section the way that news is now consumed rather than turning to you know the business section near the back of the paper before the back of the paper and there's business stories sort of put in and around you know politics sport culture world you know anything like that it's all sort of in the same like your audience is no longer a business audience it's you know an australian or anyone really anyone overseas so i remember when i started my editor kind of sort of reminding me it's like you know no one knows what bvod is like i've spent three years writing a book and i've been writing a book and i've been writing a book writing about Beavod and you know you write about you know some um minor development at a ad agency and you sort of presume that everyone knows what you know from an umbrella audience in the newsletter they go oh click on that that's really interesting but you know changing your mindset to be like three broadcast streaming services like 10 play and nine now and abc iview sort of spelling that out and i think sort of slowly we've sort of moved away from um i mean you can probably tell just by looking at the stories that i've written sort of hard business media stories to more sort of consumer not just consumer stories but stories that people more broadly would be able to sort of read with interest and not feel like they have to know the sort of intricacies of what's going on in the
Speaker 1media industry well i mean it's bringing people to the party and making it a bit more accessible yeah exactly so tell me uh what advice would you have for anyone that's pitching to you any candid advice to those that are landing in your inbox
Speaker 2you know what might help i'm gonna get my inbox up and i'm gonna see if there are any quick examples for you so someone sent me an email before this person has emailed me and they've said hi melanie and it's just addressed to me my name's obviously not melanie so that's
Speaker 1not like your just like put a little bit
Speaker 2of yeah um that's a bad example and it's a rare example but i guess just sort of you know personalizing it a bit rather than just being like hi there i hope you're well and then firing into the pitch because that just shows that you've just like sent this off to however many people so you know it helps quite a lot with like prs that i know they'll you know sort of put a personal anecdote or you know just say something i think sort of reaching out informally always helps quite a lot like there are some comms people who will sort of drop me a text or give me a call and just say oh look we've got this thing just wanted to gauge your interest on it and sort of talk it through and then you know if it's something that will sort of work then they'll say oh look if you you know if you want i'll send you uh some more details on email this has got everything that we've spoken about plus a bit more and i think that helps sort of on both sides it saves a lot of time for for me and it saves a lot of time for them not sort of going down you know sort of preparing this pitch for something that like ultimately just isn't going to work so i think yeah just just being quite direct and just giving me a call or shooting me a text i mean all my details are available online so i sort of make it hopefully quite easy to to get in touch with me so yeah i think those those things are
Speaker 1probably the best ways so helpful um just as we wrap things up callum when you look at like the year ahead do you have any predictions any um any crystal ball predictions
Speaker 2yeah i sort of try and leave the uh the predictions to others i think the only thing that ends up happening when you predict things is um you get egg on your face or like my my fine colleague david swan you get um elon musk uh sort of tweeting directly at you and your face ends up on um a number of other newspapers which was we had a laugh about i think the the most sort of there's obviously plenty of interesting things happening in the media around this year you know obviously there are approvals still to be handed out to the media i think there's a lot of things happening in the media around this year and i think that there's a lot of things happening in the media around this year um i think that there's a lot of things happening in the media around this year um i think there's a lot of things happening in the media around this year um i think there's a lot of things happening in the media around this year um i think there's a lot of things happening in the media around this year um i think there's a lot of things happening in the media around this year um i think there's a lot of things happening in the media around this year um i think there's a lot of things happening in the media around this year um i think there's a lot of things happening in the media around this year um i think there's a lot of things happening in the media around this year um i think there's a lot of things happening in the keeping my finger on the pulse and and um trying to at least shed a bit of light into how that's going is going to be um pretty interesting
Speaker 1oh well this has been a lovely juicy conversation and it's been such a treat to watch your career unfold and the just the different kinds of stories that you're tackling along the way i'm very very grateful for your time today thanks kelly
Speaker 2you're too kind and thanks for having me and thanks for the role that you've uh you've played in as well i appreciate
Speaker 1it my absolute pleasure and that's a wrap thanks for tuning in to hack your own pr if you loved this episode please go on over and subscribe review and even give it a shout out on social media you can find me at odette and co on insta until next time guys Thank you.
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