Pharma's AI opportunity with AJ Rollsy

You can actually shape the entire culture and the attitude around a disease state. If you do it the right way, AJ Rolsey has lived through 25 years of transformation in global farmer, has launched product across six national markets with big players like Novo Nordisk, Baxter, Abbott, Norgine and GSK. How do you see artificial intelligence acting for healthcare professional? AI will be transformational in healthcare. We're going to see AI have a big part to play in everything we do. It's a great opportunity, but I think as an industry, we're still figuring out what that should look like. That definitely keeps me awake at night. But at the same time, 14% of the population are walking around with a health issue that should be addressed by a primary care physician today, but they walk around, never speak into a doctor. If we have better accessibility to something like an AI, then in all probability, people are going to be diagnosed sooner. Every health issue is better addressed when it's sooner addressed. Hello. I'm Roman Bangeon, CEO of Rosérex and DC's Future Farmer. On this podcast, I'm giving you access to industry leaders who are looking forward the people changing how we connect with patients and healthcare practitioners into the future. Today's guest has lived through 25 years of transformation in global farmer through the lens of sales and marketing, an academic, friend, Sarah entrepreneur and father of two gorgeous boys, AJ. Welcome to Future Farmer. Thanks for having me. I actually like starting the show. We use the same question for each guest. And what is exciting you about the future of farmer right now? I'd say the thing that's exciting at the moment for me is that our industry, which I love I've been in for a long time, it feels like it's finally looking outside of just health care and thinking, what can we adopt to make our industry better. And so a big part of that is the adoption of new technologies, especially. No, I know everyone talks about it, but obviously my next question was, how do you see AI as having a role in shaping that future? Like in every industry, AI will be transformational in healthcare. And so it's already starting to be adopted, but increasingly we're going to see AI have a big part to play in everything we do. I'm not on the clinical side, I'm really only on commercial, but in that area it's already being deployed and it will be a big part of our lives. What keeps you up at night? Nice. You do sleep quite well, looking very good look, but quite interested if there's any pain points that really flashes for you. There are, you know, there's a few, but I suppose connected to the last question about what are we doing with AI and new technologies. That definitely keeps me awake at night. It's a great opportunity, but I think as an industry, like most industries actually, we're still figuring out what that should look like, and a big part of it is around things like governance and compliance. So that's part of what I'm thinking about. What's your view on those things, what are you evolving from a farmer and life science adoption? Great question, I suppose the thing that I love about AI is that it feels quite human, right? So people with a health question for themselves or for a loved one, for example, they really want to connect to either a person or something that feels very human because we have human type questions, and AI does a great job of bringing sort of humanity to what is a fairly technical and sometimes complex field. That's a great thing, and I think we should lean into that aspect of AI more. The problem is though that sometimes we also get a degree of overconfidence that we give to AI, and we still do see issues, for example, around things like hallucinations or incorrect information coming through AI. When that happens in the tone of voice that feels quite human, I think we maybe give it credibility that in every instance is not appropriate. So for example, if somebody just goes to Google and gets a AI-generated answer from Google, or if they go to chat GPT, for example, that's not necessarily a curated set of answers, but it feels very authentic. And so my concern, if you like, is that while we should be using AI, if we just go out to the wild west of AI, people might actually get information that's not completely right. And so this is a, health care, as we all know, is a very vulnerable and important area. And so I think AI does need to be developed and trained in a particular way so that we bring the same rigor that a patient might get if they're speaking to a doctor, for example. We need to still be mindful that those rules and the fact-based and accuracy still needs to be achieved, but in a way that is so approachable, personable, and convenient at arms reach, that those are all the promises of AI. I just want to make sure that we still get to the heart of helpful, real accurate answers. The market, I'm a marketer, so forgive me using that kind of language, but the other way to put this is just the population. They will ultimately tell people like life sciences companies and the government what needs to happen, because actually it's going to happen regardless. Correct. And so the answer is not whether or not we should permit it to happen, because that ship is sailed. It's going to happen anyway. The question is, how do we most optimally respond to it? And so I will say, for example, if we do need to accommodate or be somewhat more comfortable with people really controlling their own access to information, I think ultimately this still has a net positive for people living with health issues, because for example, it can drive earlier diagnosis and addressing a health issue sooner. I think I remember seeing a report here in Australia, for example, that at any given moment, 14% of the population are walking around with a health issue that should be addressed by a primary care physician today, but they walk around, never speaking to a doctor. Almost every health issue is better addressed when it's sooner addressed. And so if we have better accessibility to something like an AI answer for a patient, then in all probability, people are going to be diagnosed sooner. And if they diagnose sooner, there may be a treatment option sooner. And every particularly chronic health issues, they're almost always better impacted the minute a trained person can get involved. And so I actually think that if as an industry, we need to accommodate that people will go and use AI, patients are driving a lot more of their own informed health decisions. We as an industry and government regulators and the like need to get our heads around all of this and sort of work out how we're going to do it. It's a moving feast we might say, but in total, this will be beneficial, because more people will be more informed, will act sooner. And if we do it the right way, they'll not only act sooner, but they may actually get great health advice. And ultimately that helps all the society, by the way. So I look at intelligence and the ability to build companionship and architect preclinical or clinical assistance. I look at it as being a very helpful tool to regain that rightful communication and trust with the patient and future patient. It's a big journey and it's obviously what got us in the industry in the first place and make us stay in the industry, despite the headwinds at time. But it really feels like there's something, generally transformative in HAI. Now going back more on the tactics, which has been your field of, as a, as a, as a seldom marketer with over a quarter century, sorry to remind you, over a quarter century of experience across multiple continents. We're not getting younger. I would love to hear your experience in how you see those gap being closed. Yeah, of course. Well, let me, right at the start of that question, you sort of made reference to the fact that healthcare is a fascinating place to do work, right? And it is a vulnerable aspect of all of our lives. It's a great level, by the way. So when you face a serious health issue, we all are immediately equal human beings in many respects, right? So it's, it's this important and vulnerable state. And we kind of need people to bring us great answers or great solutions in our moment of need, right? So I, I kind of, in some ways, I'm sympathetic to people having a lot of emotion into how they feel when they're considering something like a farmer company, for example. And at the same time, many of the answers that are delivered to help people in this situation are brought to us by hardworking healthcare professionals, but also for-profit companies that develop solutions. Correct. However, I also think there's a lot of misunderstanding. So sometimes the negativity that's put forward to farmer companies is because that sense of vulnerability and need is married to a incorrect view of what really goes on when those medications come to market. In many ways, that's actually been improving in recent years, I think in some respects. I think farmer companies and life sciences have a better job to do to make sure that they're actually expressing what they're about. But I think increasingly people are understanding that as they get more control over their own healthcare and health journey and when they connect with healthcare professionals, for example, that they're more informed and they're able to kind of have a little bit more ownership of the process and- Get better outcomes. Get better outcomes. But then they also say, I actually, that medicine I'm going to be prescribed is part of the equation. I might have responsibilities of patient myself, the doctor or the nurse as input to. And there's kind of, I think we're getting to a point where there's a more truthful understanding of the, of who's involved with the solution. But it is quite an unusual product and it is quite an unusual, emotive purchase journey. If you were to look at it purely for marketing and look, and it's a fascinating roadmap for communication because essentially you're talking about high-fictive products that needs to be prescribed by very conservative healthcare professionals, without the ability to talk about your brand and essentially inform you that there are alternative, inform you that is treatment. Right. And you're talking about the idea that that doctors or patients, you know, it can be emotive. I think that when we think of the different people that a life science company or a farmer company might be ultimately wanting to serve, they often are serving patients, but they're also serving healthcare professionals. They're nevertheless, I often come at marketing with a bit of a behavioral science lens. And so I'm often thinking about those stakeholders and how they respond to things. The reality is that at a very fundamental level, patients have an emotional need, clinicians have an emotional need as well, it just might look a little different. And in regards of healthcare professionals, for example, a farmer company needs to deliver them not only a great medication to add to their armory of clinical solutions, but great information, timely answers, a sense of security that this thing is going to be safe as well as effective. A whole bunch of stuff that the farmer company needs to bring to the doctor who might be writing the prescription, but underneath all of this training and experience that a clinician has, they probably also have very fundamental emotional needs, which is I want to perhaps so want to be proud of the work I'm doing in caring for my patients, or perhaps I want to be able to extend empathy to my patients through my expertise or other kinds of emotional drivers. And what the farmer company needs to be able to do is say to that doctor, I recognize your emotional needs. I don't say it in that language, and then provide them everything that that doctor really needs to kind of satisfy that need. I know that sounds like a lot of marketing. Actually, this is a really interesting look back to what we discussed earlier. So essentially, you've stated that you see artificial intelligence as being an emotive gap filler essentially, saying that it is the first time we have a technology that allows you to act, and we'd have to be transparently about that role, act as a synthetic human in order to accompany you through your healthcare journey. So whether it's complex enough to go beyond triage is for us technologies to prove, but this is the promise of AI. But you then make the point very lookantly, I think that there's also an emotional capital to be addressed with the prescriber, which is all care. How do you see that specifically? I mean, we know from our experience on the terrain that it is very difficult to get any attention from a healthcare professional. It's a highly frustrated, highly squeezed industry. They have an explosion of skews and medication coming on market, and they're really struggling to keep abreast of it. How do you see artificial intelligence and other promise of emotional gap filling technology acting for healthcare professional? Every therapy area situation might be a little unique, so depending which healthcare professional we're speaking to. But I would say at a very basic level, almost every doctor I speak to feels that they have to square away a certain amount of their time doing stuff, which is not their core business. So often they're needing to be doing form-filling kind of activity that they feel is a departure from what they wanted to do their whole life, which is treat patients, or to be an expert in surgery, or in oncology, or cardiology, whatever it might be. They really wanted to bring their expertise to care for patients and improve clinical outcomes and ultimately improve someone's life. But they also feel there's a bunch of other stuff they have to do, particularly in this country. In fact, as I say this, it's in most countries that I get to do any work with. We care doctors, especially, just feel like they are administrators. Working hard all day and being administrators, right? So I don't like using the word ROI, but hopefully you know what I mean by this. A doctor's more higher ROI in terms of impact on a patient's life is often deployed in certain parts of their clinical care that they give, right? So it's more about making a good diagnosis, coming up with a good solution with a patient and so on. They probably want to spend all their time doing that stuff. They don't necessarily want to spend other time that's necessary in keeping their knowledge up to dates or finding great answers or whatever they can do it. But in most doctor conversations I have, they'd rather be diagnosing a patient's problem, coming up with good advice for them and recommending a solution. They'd rather do that work, actually, but they kind of have to do the other stuff. And what I'm thinking and what I'm hoping is that AI, especially, and the suite of technologies that will come around that, can help the doctor get that stuff real quick so that they can do more of the stuff they love. And that'll be internally rewarding for the clinician. I suspect it'll be better outcomes for the patient too. And ultimately, this is part of that enormous story of how AI will transform our industry like many to just get better at doing the stuff that we should be doing. This is a fascinating point of using technology to ease the administrative burden, whilst also enancing the fundamental attraction of being a good clinician, which is this investigative being able to offer a solution that produces better outcomes. There's a US company that is fascinating, which is one of the highest adoption in the history of healthcare professional, which is called open evidence. And essentially, it's harnessing the power of an LLM, but keeping in check the hallucination and making sure that the database that the LLM uses the rag to use a technology term is one of absolute curated clinical evidence. Oh, sure. And the simplicity of this tool and its speed of adoptions addresses exactly that point, simplifying the administration of it, so making sure that I can look out for it without having to worry about the Google monsters and other social network monetization jumps and jump scars. And I give it the clinical assurance that the data you're surfacing is relevant and clinically validated and curated by medical journals, et cetera. And the simplicity of that tool always blows my mind and check it out. It's open evidence. I'll definitely look at it. It sounds exactly what I'm thinking of. And again, it's AI in that whole field of technology is, of course, fairly complex and an enormous current thing in all of our minds, but again, my approach to marketing is probably similar to how I think about this scenario with doctors and other healthcare professionals using AI is that when you boil these things down, there are some fairly timeless characteristics of human nature, things like, if I'm a doctor, I was never performing in high school well and getting it to university, having an ambition to be a doctor in order to do this other stuff. I had a real drive to be a doctor for some other reasons, right? And so I think technology companies, pharma companies would do well, and this is true for patients too, by the way, just to remember, what's the fundamental drive for this person? And how is it the work that we're doing that's going to complement that and get back to that truth? And so I think that doctors do want to do these things. They do want to be a better doctor. They want to be known by their peers that they're an excellent doctor. They want to be known by their patients as helping them greatly in the time of need. That's probably the more fundamental stuff. And AI, of course, is going to be massively powerful to help that. So what's quite interesting is you really have worked across all major market in pharma. Could you give a bit of a color and difference in North America, Europe, Australia, et cetera? Yeah, sure. I suppose that I prefer to do my work, which is mostly around strategic advice and often marketing, kind of informed choices. My very, you know, the simple way of describing the way I like to approach those challenges is to, first of all, do a real diagnosis of what's going on in the market. And ultimately, what I'll be advising clients to do is to apply a good understanding of human behavior, like psychology for the stakeholders they're trying to reach. But in between those two steps is usually a cultural question. What does it look like in whatever place we're wanting to do that business, right? Globally, there's a big challenge because your customers, potentially, that are sitting in global headquarters in various companies, those folk often have a hard job because they know that the way they're going to deploy in Japan will look different to Germany and different, again, to the United States. And so the cultural question is often about things like, what does the behavior of stakeholders in those countries look like? And then secondly, it's things like, how do they consume information in media and the different dynamics that need to be considered? So for me, one comes to mind, for example, in Asia, we see a lot more use of so-called super apps around technology, right? So there's a lot of cultural comfort in going to one source for a lot of sorts of answers. And a company would be well served to know that if they're going into one of these markets, you really shouldn't try and change drastically what's already established and what's already happening. So before you even take your message, you say, what are they doing in that place that makes sense? I mean, that's on a consumer side, but do you see a lot of such large variation on the healthcare process? Absolutely. The same question is asked of doctors or any healthcare professional. How do they think and operate in that place that might be different to another setting? Like, you know, cultural things run deep. If you and I were working for Nike, we'd be asking how should we sell sneakers to a consumer there? In this case, in life sciences, we sell largely to two bodies, to doctors or healthcare professionals and to patients in some respect, we still need to ask the right question. So if I'm doing that in somewhere like South Korea, I know that they're going to be using one particular technology platform, consumers and doctors will be doing a bit of that. And so I'd be wanting to be mindful of that, right? And that would be very different to Australia, for example, or to the UK. And so in my experience, there's this question, first of all, obviously the company has some objectives. But if they're looking about where they're going to play around the world, the very first thing I'd be doing is speaking to the local team, so the focus work in that office in Berlin, they pretty much know what's going on with the average German HTTP. And so we'd want to do a quick temperature check to say, okay, what's the cultural question we need to be aware of here before global headquarters try and roll into that country? I'll give you one kind of crazy example, now that I think about it, this is 20 years ago. But in Germany, I thought I was a great kind of junior marketer with a global remit. And I came up with an agency for what I thought was a great tagline for this product. It was a GI product and the English translation for this product was the gentle mover. It tested really well in all our market research, it was doing all this great stuff. And then we took that as a direct translation to German and they said, well, that actually means in our language, the Holy Spirit. And that would have been a bit of an issue to try and go to market with that particular drug, with that tagline. So it's a stuck with me that we need to be relevant aware in everywhere that we play. Actually, we had a client, a Swiss life science client that had an MS therapeutic and there had a really issue in South Korea and Japan, because the efficacy of these multiple sclerosis therapeutics was particularly around early symptom. And culturally, any form of shaking wasn't considered a symptom, it was considered just a sign of aging. So they were missing out on a big slice of demographic intervention because of cultural association of symptoms. And so when you looked at a data, it was absolutely terrifying, that culturally happy people got diagnosed and how quickly they could intervene. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the importance of having a lot of local understanding and, and, and, and, and having a very good cultural lens. What, what I would say for those sorts of scenarios, I'll speak especially to anyone that's listening to, it sits on the brand side in any of the companies that are in life sciences. There's a really important job to be done with your insights in analytics colleagues quickly when you go somewhere. We do a lot of market research in this game, which is a good thing. I say that because I make part of my living that way. But there's a, there's an often missed step at this early stage where different cultures need to be considered, and that's a basic one around, and I occasionally they will me out to business schools and so on. So I sometimes try and drive this point. That's the academic side of you. Yeah, exactly. But now let's get a clever behavioral scientist to say what's going on just beneath the surface here? Because if we do straight up surveys or interviews, the problem with that kind of insight gathering is that you tend to, even if people think they're giving you an honest answer, we're all the same. We all have these weird collection of biases and stuff and you say something that you think you should say, but often a behavioral scientist will be able to peel back one layer of the onion and say, actually, there's a bias or there's a heuristic here that's informing a lot of that stuff. And if the company feels brave and bold and many cases farm a companies are the right ones to do this, the well-resourced, they have clever people, you can actually shape the entire culture and the attitude around a disease state. If you do it the right way, I wonder if I've got a minute to tell you an absolute example. So one of the pieces of work I've been immensely proud of in the last handful of years was with a really great Danish firm that have been instrumental in shaping a lot of the attitudes around weight management. A lot of this was in the press because it's, you know, along with products like Prozac in mental health and Viagra in erectile dysfunction, sexual health, the weight management category has sort of, we might say, jumped the shark and gone out of not only doctor conversations, but now as a sort of thing that's spoken about at a barbecue or at the, you know, around the water cooler at work or something. So you were actually instrumental in Australia in getting this conversation and in direct to consumer. Well, thank you. It was a relationship that we had to support. That's where we met, actually. Yeah, exactly. So one thing that I think that company did really well is they recognized early that there was a need not only to take this great product out and put it in the hands of doctors to prescribe or what have you, but actually to have a role in changing some of the general conversation because behavioral scientists could point out very quickly that around weight management, obesity and the like, there was just so much prevalent stigma in society and all sorts of biases that were incredibly unhelpful. And I'm sorry to say that I probably had some of those before I had a chance to really look into it myself. And then we did a ton of research and even doctors had some of those. So there is a role for a drug company to say, you know what, with a 15 years getting ready for this because we've been in good clinical research program, we know we're going to bring something that's meaningful to people who need care in a serious, you know, health issue. Some of those companies can actually say we make a bold choice to invest in bringing about a more productive and positive and healthy conversation in a culture, in a society so that that health issue can be better addressed. And to their credit, obviously no company does a perfect launch in any brand, but to their credit, they did a really remarkable job. And so what this company did was saying, you know what, this is a serious health issue. We need to give not just a medication that allows a doctor to make a good prescription, but actually we need to allow people to say this is not something that's just worthy of original contempt or stigma and bias, but to realize we don't have that same sort of attitude to someone that lives with asthma or with hypertension necessarily. But for some reason we have all these biases and stigma and the company did a great job of saying, let's sort of reset the conversation and realize that we all walk around in these bodies. Sometimes they're imperfect, sometimes they have a chronic health issue. We need to sort of bring some better understanding. But what's even more for a standing is the product and question, which is GLP1, I think you're on understood now. The GLP inhibitors have been in market in Australia since 2015 and you so little to no market penetration, no one really used it, very few doctors understood how to prescribe it. For what, five, seven years, and it's when your team started to intervene and design ways to communicate these learnings about destigmatizing weight loss, destigmatizing weight gains and really go through the consumer before DHCP, that you saw some staggering changes in attitude. We did and was an extremely fast adoption. Obviously, digital help communicating that really well, but could you frame it with some numbers? Because I always found it fascinating the before and after, you're changing the lens from the former perspective. Quickly doubling back to the point about GLP1s, it's a remarkable category of medications, that many people will know that it was originally indicated for treating type 2 diabetes, that type of molecule. Doctors had many options at their disposal, GLP1s being one of those. So when it was only used in diabetes, it was just one of a handful of options that a doctor might have. All the while, weight management was really poorly served as a category. There was a few prescription options, but to be blunt, they had various problems of their own. In general, doctors didn't feel super confident in many cases, prescribing those too often. What we saw when we shifted the presentation of these medications for weight into the hands of doctors and patients, in the same way that ProZAC and drugs like that helped to reset public conversations around mental health, a doctor had a good prescription, a patient had a real disease that was worthy of intervention, and there was a watershed moment when a great new product came available, and by the way, off the back of that, several others kept improving, there was other companies bringing their own versions of similar classes of drugs. So in many cases, if there's a disease that is not highly symptomatic for the person or it's just part of their life, in many cases the doctor is the one that holds the greater wellspring of motivation, because they're more cognizant, for example, of some clinical measurements or comorbidities or something, so the doctor says to that patient, "I'd like to address this health issue," and for the patient themselves, they may only be moderately motivated around it. They maybe don't feel the impacts every day. In that scenario, commercially, the drug company would be right to invest most of their effort to the HCP, who's the one sitting on the larger wellspring of motivation. But in other cases, we mentioned ProZAC, we mentioned something like Viagra, weight management, the wellspring of motivation in these cases. So by the way, it's also true in things like pediatric serious diseases, Alzheimer's and dementia in our parents, stuff like that, all of a sudden, there's things that are extremely motivating for a patient or a caregiver, like I said, someone at home, but as a marketer that would be given the job of driving certain commercial outcomes, for ROI, I want to put my chips behind the part of the bats where the bigger wellspring of motivation exists. So in some diseases, it absolutely is going to be the patient. That's not to say you should ignore the role of the doctor, the doctor is quite important, but if you want to move the needle to use a bit of jargon, I would be making a play behind the wellspring of motivation just to quickly finish out the point in sexual health, interact all this function. Here's a classic case study, again, I sometimes talk about this one in kind of educational settings. We all think of Viagra, it sort of broke this category into the public perception, people are talking about Viagra in the community. But after them came another product called Cialis, an interesting brand in its own right. And in terms of brand marketing, it's a brilliant case study and it's right in my kind of nerdy wheelhouse because they knew the application of behavioral science. Viagra was an important drug. It changed the conversation, but Cialis recognized there's another person in this whole ecosystem that's really interested in this and that was the wife or girlfriend. And so the company that brought Cialis to market second, they said, let's change our marketing message to patients and actually not even go to the guy that's living with erectile this function. But let's speak directly to the wife or girlfriend and help inform her about, hey, this is a medical condition that a doctor can help with. And they did a really kind of a case study in identifying who's the person with motivation that we can speak to and kind of move the patient, which in this case was the man, to a sooner diagnosis, a better diagnosis, a good treatment option and that issue was largely addressed. And so intensive guys that came before me that I have to kind of give a nod to the Cialis brand team were remarkable. So I kind of like those case studies because it checks off the list of the right way to go and bring a brand to market and it gets back to the fundamental thing, who are we really wanting to speak to primarily. Of course those companies also let doctors know all about it, but they kind of worked out who they could speak to. I'm going to go back and say like, well, what we've seen post COVID is this explosion of direct consumer company that essentially have identify these latent urge for patient and future patient to go and help and understand and get navigated to an outcome as quickly as possible. They've used enormous venture capital money to build this and accelerate awareness and we've seen that very successfully in weight loss, aeratal dysfunctions. And I'd like you to specifically talk to this enormous boom and demand for action. What you've heard you call it, the hybrid journeys which have these digital journeys from an HCP, but more importantly from a patient perspective. Yeah. So I think what's happening is that the average person on the street is feeling more empowered to make choices around health because they have quicker access to information and so on. There's both drug companies and independent players, sometimes together, who are dialing up the broadcast noise on certain disease states. So that's reaching people sooner through things like social media, for example. And so you're right that that has actually driven a lot of business. There's an increased number of prescriptions in different health areas actually that are coming off the back of that stuff. But increasingly technology is also allowing farmer companies themselves to actually take this onboard and do more of this directly. And that's not something that every farmer company has traditionally felt so comfortable about. We all know that we're in a regulated environment and we might not have that sort of a skill set traditionally. However, some farmer companies are starting to say, yeah, we can actually do a bit of this. We can reach people directly and move them sooner to the next best action. So I'm encouraged to see more farmer companies say, you know what, we can build out our own expertise here. We can partner with the right people, maybe bring in some assistance and find people where they are and allow them to address that health issue sooner. So that is happening more and more, I think, in-house in farmer companies. And if I was to make a guess, I'd say a year or two from now, that'll be much more common. Adria, you often speak about stealing from other industry and applying it to life zones. So, you know, actually, I'll go back to the weight management thing when we realized that we had to address this issue of stigma and bias in society. We looked at what was happening in the fashion industry and in things like female cosmetic products. And we said, how do they actually connect with people that have a real concern about something that's a hard issue? And we learned the way they communicated and thought, can we maybe bring some of that over to the world? So, four of you, as you took the plus side language of the fashion industry and adapted it. Not to the point of messages, but we were trying to see what we really wanted to work out was what are the ways in which those industries are resonating with somebody for a really important kind of current issue for them? And can we learn something about the way those people live every day and think about what they're navigating? So, that really informed the way that we thought, okay, here's how we can come out and tackle some of the questions around things like self-blame. So, if there's a person that is living with obesity, they're probably being living with that condition their whole life. And in many cases, in the same way that society was stigmatizing them, they often were stigmatizing themselves. But, I have to nod to people like Dove that actually said, no, you're a beautiful human being. Your size is not your whole identity anyway, but you're beautiful regardless. And so, the message that to their credit, the message that the company I worked with is not to say you should be ashamed of your weight, but actually to say you should live your healthiest best self, and in many cases that might include weight management, but it's not to feel stigmatized. And so, when that was going on, I thought, yeah, there's a really nice way for us to play an ethical and appropriate approach to this that we saw other industries do and we could learn and kind of emulate some of the better aspects of them, but I would apply that same model to any question and farmer today. So, if someone's watching you get a drug, for example, how could I learn what the entertainment industry are doing for a similar question or direct to consumer products in some other fashion? What could we do that's been proven to work at a fundamental human psychology level and say, yeah, that makes sense. We can put it to work here too. I love it. AJ, I'd like to ask some quick-follow questions. So, obviously the game is to get very fast answers. So, biggest industry prediction for 2026. Every farmer company adopts AI, easy one. Biggest challenge that needs to be addressed. How to adopt AI, love it. One bit of your old science principle, every farmer professional should know. That there is a bias driving most decisions, sure. Best investment farmer companies can make right now. That would be equipping and upskilling their existing human resources to understand technology better. I like that. Most of a rate of trend in healthcare. Big day to the wrong way. And what I mean by that is there was this trend to try and soak up data everywhere, but no one knew how to use the insights. I love that. So true. And one word to describe the future of patient and HP engagement for you. It's authentic. I know that's another use term, but what I mean by that is that consumers are feeling more empowered to make their own choices, and there's a finely tuned bullshit detector out there. And so I think people living with a health issue, they want to know that whoever speaking to them is bringing the truth, and then they'll act. And so I think farmer companies would do well to remember that. I like that. AJ, thanks again for joining us at Future Farmer. It was fascinating to hear about your insights on behavioral science around the world, working people find more about health-conscious research. Well, I can certainly go to the website, which is at healthpointresearch.com. And I spend an embarrassingly large amount of time pontificating on LinkedIn. So if anyone wants to find me there, it's AJ Rolsey. Feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. You're a brave man. Love it. Future Farmer, how he's brought to you by Rosarax. The future of health care lies in truly personalized patient and actually for journeys. And conversation like this one, help us live there faster. Until next time, I'm Robin Bonshin, thanks for listening.