Peter Thiel Knows About The Antichrist! A Seanversation.

What's happening, everybody? How are you doing? I hope you're all well. Welcome to another episode of The Nancecast. This is an awesome episode. We're joined by Sean. And we talk about all kinds of stuff. We talk about Rousseau and Ethics and Vanity versus Care. We talk about Gerard and Peter Teal and the Antichrist. We talk about power and waste and fatie. We even talked a little bit about Star Wars and Avatar. So it's a good episode. I love it when Sean's here. We're also gonna be starting a new thing that we'll be doing with Sean and Mikey. We'll be doing something cool here starting soon. We mentioned that in this episode, but it's really cool. So strap in for the episode. But before we get into that, I just wanted to give a quick shout out to the homie, Braham with Strange Exiles. And let me pull it up here on the screen. If you're watching the video, you can see this is the Strange Isles Substack. You can go to that by going to Strange Exiles. All one word, two E's, Strange S-T-R-A-N-G-E, Exiles, exil.es.substack.com. That's Strange Exiles.substack.com. If you're listening to this, you should already be subscribed to Strange Exiles. But Braham is doing a series on crisis masculinity and he's sharing his own work and he's having guest writers come on and sharing their work as well. And you can go to Strange Exiles on Substack and you can check out my contribution to the crisis masculinity series as well as some others as well. I believe Jason Miles just had a piece. And like I said, Braham is sharing some of his own work too. So it's really cool. It's really exciting. You should go over to Strange Exiles on Substack and check that out. And without much more ado, we'll go ahead and get right into the episode with Sean. So thanks for coming folks. Thanks for sticking around and check this one out. (upbeat music) All right, cool. We're going now. Alex Conner, I think is his name. He used to have a different name and he used to just argue about atheism. It's not genetically modified skeptic. That's a different guy. Cosmic, cosmic, atheist, I don't know. But so there's Alex Conner. Is this Cambridge or Oxford? I don't know. But he's a fancy philosophy guy now and he makes a bunch of philosophy YouTube videos. Oh, I've seen this guy. Cosmic skeptic. Cosmic skeptic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But now he just goes by his name 'cause he's all grown up now. So he can cast away the cosmic. But he used to do like atheism debates and now he does philosophy. And I think him and like there's a couple other channels that are, I think they're laundering the, like the Richard Dawkins version of philosophy into what people view as online theory and philosophy. And I just don't think it's good philosophy fundamentally. Like I think it's, I'm skeptical of all of it because I'm like, all right, you guys all ultimately, like you're beholden to, like this guy, this Jonathan guy. Jonathan by is we were talking about a video that he did that I sent to Nance about Rousseau. Yeah, about about the discourse on inequality. Yeah. And I like, I feel like Jonathan knows what he's talking about and he's taking it seriously and he's actually trying to do sound philosophy. But he's actually reading the shit. We have to at least say that. No, and I would, I would rather have someone watch that and watch, I don't know, philosophy tube or that stuff. 'Cause I feel like philosophy tube, like, oh, that's just kind of culture where bread tube stuff, at least this guy is engaging with the philosophy. But I feel like he's sneaking in some kind of like, I don't know, like techno-cratic worldview. Like he's talking about one of my very good friends is a tech investor and he tells me he always has success not looking at the end product or whatever, but the social reality of this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, sure, I think that's like a good investment strategy, probably if you understand, like this is all historically situated. So like the people who have access to this power, right? If we already accept this level of inequality, then sure, of course it'll work out maybe, but also maybe, I don't know, I feel like, I feel like this guy is a very convenient philosophy guy for guys like Mark Zuckerberg and Peter Teal and Mark Andreessen who want to have the appearance of doing philosophy. Like the kid even came out and said, like, I'm amazed at how many of these silicone Valley investors study philosophy, right? And I'm like, but they don't though, dude. Like you can't honestly think that these guys actually, like, so that annoyed me. And then he ended with his Rousseau video. He ended on a point that I think is just very, I was like, okay, I disagree with that. - Yeah, yeah. So what did you disagree with? That inequality is necessary for achievement, essentially. - Well, dude, so that part, that's where I want to agree with him. I want to say that inequality is necessary for greatness, but also greatness is fucking evil, which he sort of conceives. I think great, this fucking Socrates says, great men are also bad. - Yeah, but the thing is this guy, I think he did concede it and look, I think he's very fair to Rousseau and he's actually, he's like, and this is where it might get a bit controversial. So let me just go to the text and he reads Rousseau in his own words. So it's not like he's like, making shit up. So fair enough, this guy I think is being honest, but when he concedes that greatness is kind of, maybe a little bit evil, like that's just like a hand-wavy way to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but then he continues to go on and do the juror thing and it's like, come, I just, I don't like it, dude. I think it's, I think it's, - Look, his argument is that Canada is allowed to have its morality only because it is defended by the military apparatus of the United States. So it's able to be less unequal, right? - Yeah. - So I'm just catching the viewers up, right? But like, so I almost, I wanna say that there's like something to that, however, it's kind of just like, it's like, yeah, but like this still, the fact that America has these nuclear weapons, this is not unlikely to be the end of humanity. You know what I mean? So like the military arsenal behind which Canada is hiding, we're not just talking about something that'll just go on it'll be okay, like this world order will just continue. No, this is like, - Probably in the end of the world. - Yeah. - This is probably it, you know? So it's like, it is bigger than he's letting on. He's saying like morality relies on power in this way, but it's like, no, but the power might destroy, not only the morality, but it's self and everything. - Yeah. - Well, and that's the point that's like, yeah. I also think like, I don't agree that greatness requires great inequality. Like I think that's just like internalizing the world around us and kind of taking it for granted and like failing to critically engage with the world and saying and taking this just so narrative of like, well, this is all we've ever seen, you know? This is all we have historical evidence for. So therefore it must be this necessary thing to say that X requires Y. Like I don't think you can just look at history and say therefore it is necessary. I think you can look at history and say, therefore there's a lot of correlation here and there's a lot of things that, you know, these things play hand in hand together in some cases, but when you make this like, when you say this thing is necessary for this other thing and people tend to think this other thing is good, So therefore we have to sneak in this. thing that people think is bad. I think for me, it's very convenient for people like Peter Teal and Alex Carp and all these technocratic assholes to just justify it. I'd just be like, "But it's okay because we read philosophy and we don't have to be great but just be good," or whatever. Like, it's all to me. It's all really fast-siled. It's all kind of like to launder. Yeah. And I just don't like it. I think we can have better, I don't know, we can have better moral compasses than to just be like, "Well, maybe." I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But that's the way in which Peter Teal, like mentioned Peter Teal, that's the only way I can wrap my head around where Peter Teal is coming from because it seems fucking insane. And then you realize that he is a gerardian. He has actually spent time studying under Gerard in it like, it casts a shadow over all of Gerard's work. But like, I'm absolutely convinced that if Gerard were alive today, he would be fucking horrified. I'm not convinced. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely convinced. By what Peter Teal and his Peter Teal also then influenced the fucking vice president of the United States right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, JD Vance is now also fancy himself a Gerardian. So this goes all the way to the fucking top. Yeah. Which is crazy. But like, but no, I think if you read, if you read, I have it right here. What's it called? If you read I see Satan fall like lightning, I think it's impossible after reading that book to be like, to think that Gerardian, like, would look at Peter Teal and be like, "Oh, yeah, that's what I meant." You know what I mean? Because it's just so obvious in that book that the point was like through Christianity to overcome the violent, memetic contagion. And whereas Peter Teal is like, I feel like what's going on in Peter Teal's mind? Who knows? I can't say. But like, my only, my best speculation is like, he's like, well, somebody has to do it. Somebody has to be me. So it might as well be me. Yeah. Whereas Gerard would be like, no, you should die before you do that. You know, like you should, you know what I mean? Like Gerard would be like on the principle, like you should just renounce, I think Gerard would, if he had the world, the power would renounce it. If he was Peter Teal, he would walk away. Yeah. Well, it's if he was being consistent with his own thought. That's fair enough. I tend to not like Gerard, but it's also true that I have not really engaged with Gerard in his representatives. Always tend to be freaks. So yeah. So yeah. Like a cult. Yeah. But so this guy, Jonathan on YouTube, Jonathan, by, he's a well put together young man. He's got a, he's got a striking aesthetic. And I think on balance, he's probably doing far more good than than harm. But I just think there's, there's something going on where he's at, at, at best, like a useful, um, eager young man for kind of older people with ulterior motives and money to fund him so that they can like whitewash a little bit of the, you know, technocratic space. And for the record, we don't, we don't even know sure that he's funded. I'm just guessing. Oh, you know, like if it's not his presentation. Yeah. Who he knows. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If he's not funded, then it's definitely a passion project. But and it's, the presentation is done very well. He very clearly knows what he's talking about his, uh, his production is great. His aesthetic is great. All that. But I, I don't know. I'm not here to talk shit about the guy. Like I said, I would rather have people watch, watch his videos and watch, uh, a bunch of video essays about culture war bullshit. Like I genuinely would. I just also think yeah, like he's doing the tech bros a service and presenting this kind of lunge in a meeting. Yeah. And saying, oh, they, you know, they study philosophy. Like, no, they don't do. I'm sorry. I'm fucking sorry. Yeah. Like you're like the, yeah. The person who actually like gets it cannot be the same person who's trying to destroy the world and trying to justify it by progress. Like that, it just cannot be the same person. No, no, I know what you mean. Yeah. But, uh, any day, yeah. It also power. Yeah. And that's why like Peter teal is like fucking weird and scary because like the people he takes seriously, like in his like one of the transcripts that I haven't read all of, but I heard a, I listened to some other journalist talking about it. Um, but like the, the, the course he did about the fucking anti grace. Yeah, dude. He, he, he, apparently he can't see that like dude, it's you. Yeah. You know what I mean at all. He's so unbelievably meiopic and like, and so he has to see like he has to blame someone else for ending the world. Yeah. It's the blank reddit. himself. Credit turnberg. Dude, he's like, she whatever you think about fucking credit turnberg, she's not the fucking anti Christ you moron. Yeah. God damn. No, I think I listened to, I think I listened to a true and on episode where they had someone on who read through all the transcripts and, uh, and he was talking about him and, and it, like yeah, it just, it's like, okay, Peter teal is, he's just like the, the specialist little boy in the world who never had to deal with being told no. And he did all this, you know, amazing, crazy, powerful stuff in the world. And now he's, he's going on like a vanity tour where he's like, I am suddenly an expert on the anti Christ. It's like, like the South Park episode Peter teal knows about the anti Christ. Peter, it's like, you see the new, the Christmas one, the newest one. Uh, I know I didn't. Oh, it's so good. It's so good. When I saw the last one I saw, uh, the baby hung itself. Oh, yeah. Wait, is that, no, I think that was the one before. Can I spoil the new one slightly? Is that okay? Yes. Spoilers. Okay. There's a scene where, because Jesus has already gotten all macho. Like Jesus got Christian. And now he's like, you know, as if there's a scene where like, like, towel, he goes like, what's wrong with Jesus? And then, uh, someone answers him. Oh, he, Jesus got all Christian, you know, that's, uh, that part when they're at the, whatever it is, like the TGI Fridays or whatever they're at the restaurant. And he's hanging out with Power Christian principle. And he's introducing her, uh, that's, that's so good, dude. And then he comes back. Yeah. And he, like, rips his fucking sleeves off and he's all, yeah, that, uh, South Park's good again, dude. And I don't know if they were not good. I just stopped watching. I think they were always good. I think they were. Yeah. Um, I think I stopped watching fucking like a decade ago, probably because I just, I didn't have time to keep up with it. But, uh, I've watched the, this season, the previous season. And I'm eventually going to work, go back and work my way back, back through it. I think South Park's so fucking good, dude. Yeah. I agree. I think, uh, I think they've always been good. I think they kind of like, sort of stayed away from politics directly. And then with the Trump shit, they're just like, nah, fucking, we're just going all in. They're going so hard to, dude. Yeah. Cause I think some people, like the second you try and, like, I think they feel it slipping where like people try and categorize them as like, oh, you're left wing. And then they, and then people cut, try and categorize, oh, you're right, wing. I think when they feel that, they're being like pigeonholed, they're like, no, fuck you. Yeah. Well, and I think, I, I think, cause I remember, like, I remember when South Park came out and I was like, oh, this shit's based. Maybe the, maybe the first couple seasons were like whatever. But eventually, like, I picked up on like, oh, these guys are based. And at the time, I, I was like, oh, they got, they must be anarchists like me. And so I was like, of course they're, they're anarchists like me. Um, but no, I think, I think they're very libertarian. And I, to use libertarian as a compliment and not like in a, in a derogatory way. Cause you can do both. Like you can call someone a libertarian and mean they're a kidfucker or a retarded money worshiper or whatever, or you can also mean like, no, you really are just like doing what you want to do. Like, I don't fuck with you. Don't fuck with me. And I think they're like the best version of libertarian in that sense where they're like, we're going to call, we're going to call bullshit when we see bullshit. Um, and we're also just, we're making a cartoon. That's another thing too, man. Like why does everybody expect cartoons and music and movies to like, to be an anarchist, me or like whatever it is. Like what you can't enjoy something that doesn't share your hyper niche fucking category, like hyper tuned algorithmic beliefs that aren't even really yours. They're just like what you do to comfort yourself when you can't sleep at night because you're a lonely boring fuck. Like it's just it's so absurd, dude. You have to have an opinion about everything and it has to be the correct opinion. And if it's wrong or silence is violence, all is shit. It's so absurd. Praise South Park. Thank you Lord Jesus for South Park, wherever it would be without you. But no, agreed South Park is and there is a type of like there's a type of libertarian who I think is like a monster, but yeah, yeah, but your average libertarian, I'm like, like the person who just casually calls themselves a libertarian who like maybe works for a living or whatever. Like that dude's base because like that. Yeah, he is though. But he's not on he's not thinking with Peter teal who would also probably call himself a libertarian, you know, because like fucking that's a different like words don't mean the same thing when you have that much money and power. Like they don't, you know what I mean? Like libertarian for you isn't the same thing as libertarian. And unfortunately sometimes people don't realize that. Sometimes people they're using the same word as Peter teal and they think, Oh, I fuck with Peter teal and that's where you fuck off because I'm like, dude, no, no, like first of all like, libert, like we need to remember and start our libertarianism from the point that like a corporation is an artifact of the state. Like it's a creation of the state. It's a legal category. So already, like if you're in a corporation, you can't possibly be a libertarian. You can be like an anarcho capitalist in the sense that you want to replace the state completely and completely destroy it and become your own state. But then you're not an anarchist at all. You're just a, you know, like a software doesn't make any sense conceptually. A sobcorp is a state. That's all it is. There's no separate category of a sovereign corporation. It's a state that's also paid a play. That's a bad world you want to live in. Well, I think it's like it's very much like the sobcorp model is just neoliberalism accelerated. Yeah. It's like let's, let's gut all the public interest and like let's issue all the responsibility toward the public good from the state or from whatever apparatus holds the power holds force whatever can enforce things. But let's also keep the force so that it's like it's still like we'll kick you out if we don't like you. We'll kick you out if you can't afford to pay your citizenship dues. Well, if I can kick you out if you're an illegal immigrant this and that like it is, it is just the state without any of the good parts of the state and the good parts of the state. That's all right. Like, yeah, like the state, I think is a necessary thing. The state is kind of coping with our thrownness into the world like there will always be a sort of formalizing it is a way to reduce anxiety and it's a way to I think increase fairness or like put us all on a level playing field. Like that's why it should be formalized. So it's legible to everyone and it's reliable and repeatable and we can predict what the future is going to look like within a reasonable like distribution or whatever. So yeah, the state, yeah, I consider myself some kind of anarchist. I also know that the state is just a necessary thing and there are good parts of the state. And then there's bad parts of the state and all these libertarians want to cut away all the good shit and keep the worst parts of the state. It's like you're the opposite of a libertarian, dude. Yeah. That's the thing is like neoliberalism is already confused from the very beginning because like people, people associate it with laissez faire with the free market and that's just completely the wrong direction like totally like it is just redistribution towards like upwards that all it is through the state. Yeah, that's all it is like like the world we live in today would not have made Hayek happy. It would be fucking unvery unhappy about the world we live in today. He was just as opposed to organized labor as he was to monopoly equally, you know. Unfortunately, his ideas got marshaled to only attack organized labor and not the other side, you know, which fucking sucks because like if you're going to live in a world with monopolies, then you need organized protections that shit out, you know. So, yeah. So that sucks. Yeah. But hey, dude, here we are. Yeah, here we are. I have on demand video on demand. I can watch Transformers whenever I want and I can order almost any kind of food I can want. I have delivered to my front door like within 30 minutes or less. So, you know, what are you going to do? Real freedom or convenience. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, we have the we can do that shit, but also like is my next paycheck going to happen, you know, like assuming my next paycheck comes. I can do all the shit I want. Yeah, I can keep watching Gilmore Girls reruns and eating burritos. I can't do it, Bulls whenever I want. I think I miss one fucking paycheck. I'm not only do I lose all of that, but I'm also homeless. Yeah. And it's also like it's becoming illegal to be homeless. Like there's like cities, municipalities are making it illegal to camp in like state property. The federal government is trying to make it illegal to camp like no unauthorized camping on public property shit like that. Like, well, what the fuck do you want people to do? You just send them here. Send them to Portland. It's not illegal here. Like that's what they do. They just send them here. Yeah. They're not from here like some of them are, but most of them aren't from Portland. Yeah. Well, there's been a lot of changes in the kind of the homeless world this century. I'd say 20 years ago, being homeless, but there was a lot less homeless people 20 years ago. I think it, you know, it's probably maybe almost doubled in 20 years, which is, which is a lot. But you've always had like a category of people who choose that life. Yeah. Like you do. You do. And a lot of like gutter punks and stuff. I spent time being like a street punk living in a car for a while. But then you have people who are like forced into it. I feel like we have more people who have been forced into it in, you know, in the last decade probably than in the past. Like in the past, there were people who chose it. And then there were just like, just people who needed fucking help. But they got kicked out of a mental institution when it was closed down or they kept coming in and out of jail or their family life's just so fucked or whatever. Like there was always that. But now there's like legitimately people who like, yeah, I just can't afford a house. So I'm living in my car. I'm working multiple jobs. I'm working this part time job, this other part time job. And it's like a different kind of homeless. You don't even get to be lazy. You don't even get to be like. Yeah. Especially cities like San Francisco, they have a lot of that shit. Yeah. I mean everywhere, but because everywhere is expensive, but some of these more expensive places. Like I definitely work with people in Las Vegas who were homeless living on the streets and they would still show up to work every day. Yeah. So. Well, I think with San Francisco and Seattle, there is like the narrative that woke killed these cities. Yeah, which is basically stupid. But I mean, there's a tiny kernel of truth to it in a way, but it's basically wrong. Yeah. Like I think it's very clear what happened. Like we had a lot of tech innovation in quotes. We had a lot of like the dot com bubble. We had like, you know, the turn of the millennium was an exciting time. There was just this huge economic upswing kind of like the gold rush in San Francisco or like in that area, but even more. And then you had like the real estate market got all wacky because we had corporations. Now, like whereas in the past with booms, we didn't necessarily have the same structures for people investing and buying huge blocks of property and then renting it out and stuff like that. But I just think like there's very clear material causes for why San Francisco and Seattle are so fucked and Portland even too. And I think Portland's probably doing better now than what people think it is on the news. Like we were talking like yeah, on the news with the ice protest and shit. Like the news was making it sound like there was a war going on and you're like, yeah, dude. - They do that with everything here, like Fox News and Trump himself personally will take up things about Portland and just like blow shit completely out of proportion. But and that's like, there's so much bullshit on that side. But then the liberal response to it is like, just as annoying. Because like when Trump was saying that there's like a war going on, they did the same thing in the George Floyd protest. And it was like, even the George Floyd was like, it was like a fucking, two block fucking radius. Everything happened. Nothing happened outside of that for the most part, you know. Broken windows here and there maybe, but you know. But it wasn't like, like I lived in southeast Portland and like I didn't see any of that shit, you know what I mean? Like none of it, like zero. Unless I wanted to. But like anyway, point is like that. But the liberal response to like the ice shit was like posting pictures of themselves, like kayaking and shit be like, oh yeah, Portland's so terrible. I'm like, dude, if you go downtown, it is bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is hell. Like it is so fucking bad with the fentanyl like it's gross. Like just people just bent in half everywhere you go. And because like the thing about Portland is like, they don't because of this liberal fucking ideology. Like they don't, there's no skater row. There's no one street where everyone's hounded. So they're just everywhere. Yeah. Everywhere because we've decided it's like more ethical to just let them go wherever than to keep them in one area where all the services are, you know. So I don't know which one's better. I just think they're both suck and neither of them are solutions. And it's just like the liberal response to the right being like patting themselves in the back for being such good people is just like, it's just as bullshit, you know what I mean? I think Salt Lake City during COVID was fucked dude like that shit looked like a scene out of like like day of the dead or something man like a real. Yeah, it was fucking crazy dude. I walked out of not no spharaught to which I hated. I was seeing a sat downtown Portland. I hated that movie, but I walked out of that movie like a movie about like graphic movie about fucking vampires. And then there was this dude just like fucking half fentanyl out like fucking saw me in down the street and I was like, oh shit, I just stepped out of a movie into a movie. But sorry, I was saying Salt Lake City. Like it's just it's it's, I don't know man, like it's it's crazy. Like this is it is a huge fucking problem. And it's definitely got worse. It's definitely intensified to the point where it's getting harder to ignore. And I think like in Phoenix and like in an L.A. I spent a lot of time in both I live in Phoenix. We have a skid row like we have a designated area. Same thing with L.A. And cities like Salt Lake like I like when I was up there during COVID it was like what the fuck? It's just everywhere and with Portland with it being everywhere. I almost wonder like does that do anything to like to get people instead of posting a picture on Instagram of writing a kayak like wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't you think it would kind of force you to like, oh, we should probably do something or is it still just as easy as it ever was to just ignore it? No, do you just step right over someone's fucking half dead body? And you don't and it just makes you more callous if anything. Cause like then you cause you're forced to go about your daily life ignoring it more. You know, because like there's nothing you can do for that individual person that wouldn't be such a sacrifice that could potentially put you in that person's place yourself. Like it would be a full time job caring for one of those people. So I'm not saying people shouldn't do that. That would be very like self sacrificial Jesus see to do, you know, like to like take care of that one like wash that fucking disgusting crusty mother fucker speed. Let me wash your feet. And then we'll yeah, like sing songs and everything will be solved. Yeah. So like go for it. I'm not saying it's a it would be a bad thing to do, but I'm just saying like what it's going to happen for most people is that they're actually going to become more callous about those people or more more afraid of becoming like homeless like them. Yeah. So it's either fear or more callousness because you have to actively like ignore it, like actively ignore it more often. So it either probably like loals people into even more like a more tranquilized state or generates more reactionary sentiment because you start to resent like your fellow like when you're on the border, like when you're precarious, you you resent the lump in and you like because you think like, oh, I want a I want stability. I want this and I almost have it and I just have to keep my nose to the grind stone a little bit more and this and that and it's not personal. It's business and all like all the post hoc rationalization shit. We have to do because if not, we would all become homeless. Like we would just like if we gave into our emotions constantly every single day, we would be paralyzed, be petrified. Yeah. Yeah. But like doing that over and over and over again, but never actually achieving the payoff of stability, like probably generates more more resentment, more reactionary sentiment. Um, so that's. And dude, all of this shit, like the political shit, the economic stuff, like it all kind of orbits around something that that that Jonathan by video was talking about because he was focused on on Rousseau and I'm more proper. Um, he I'm I I was Googleed it because I was like, how do you pronounce it? And Google said it's a more proper. That's what Google said. So I'm going with that. Um, but he was saying I'm more prop. It's it's like the the RE is like really. It's really subtle. Friends people don't announce it. Almost silent. It's almost silent. So it's like, it's like, M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. But you just say self love. Yeah. Right. We just do that. We don't. But there it. So there is Jack Allen Miller. Yeah, Jack Allen Miller. They're in Rousseau. So there's this kind of, uh, M. M. M. Which it kind of becomes vanity. And then there's this other type of self love, which is like M. M. There's like love of the self. So there's like qualitatively two different types of self love. There's this kind of like real genuine love. Uh, or care will say we'll say like self care, but not in the Instagram kind of way, but genuinely care. And then there's this type of vanity that gets, um, turned, turned into this quest to climb up the totem pole. It's very similar to Bordeaux with distinction and Boudrear with sign value. But this is, so this is a hundred and something or that, I don't know, this is a long, long time before either Bordeaux or Boudrear are writing. Um, yeah. So yeah. Um, but do you, I mean, do you think that like the, the amore prop, the, the self love, the, the, the vanity, the vanity, the competitive self love, like that, that comports really well with what Gerard sang. Um, because like so for him, it's this, it's this rival wrist shit. And I just like the, the more I look around, the more I see it. And I think that like, I think that people who aren't terribly rival wrist, like that's not a huge, like everyone's affected by it, but like not everybody goes for it in the same way. Um, and so I think that people who like aren't terribly rival wrist, like sometimes have a hard time seeing it, like how much it fucking moves the world and moves people, you know? So, um, and that's for me, but like I struggled with it because I'm like, that's not really how I live my life. But also, like that's just of my many faults. One of them isn't being super rival wrist or being driven by that, you know? And so for like, I was like, is this really what's going on with human society? But then the more I look around the more I'm like, yeah, this is what's tearing the fucking world apart, you know? I, I don't know. You know the exo. So I, I do, um, I, I think this concept, it does bear out. And I, I see it with distinction from board. And I see it with sign value, especially with Bojo yard. And I think you can draw a line back to be so with that. Um, but I, I also think like you need, um, you need to come at it from like a more structural point of view, because I don't think that has much power. Uh, when, when a person is able to like live life, like, like, like when you're able to actually find comfort. And when you're, when you're actually able to, um, be at peace with your surroundings. And that's exceedingly difficult to do. Like, especially in the world we live in today, it's exceedingly difficult to find peace. Um, but I think like tying that vanity to sign value. It's like, yeah, that is in operation. And that is what the commodity is. is doing and I think it's even doing what the identity is doing in the category and the culture war. Like the culture war plays on this vanity and it's not even to say like, I want to be the best. It's like it really has got to the point where it's like, I want to be seen as valid in the eyes of some one or some thing because we are all so miserable and we are all so caught up in something and I don't think it's as simple as just saying vanity is the cause of this kind of inequality. I would say vanity plays into it with sign value. But I also like, yeah, I don't know. I've never really run into being motivated by it. Now when I was younger, I think, yeah, I wanted to be the best fucking skateboarder at the park. Like I wanted to do shit that no one else could do. I wanted to go out and hit the spot and get the trick before anyone else could get it. When I, like, art, like I wanted to do dope, ask graffiti and like make everybody be like, yeah, that was me. Like, so I can see it with recognition and the desire to be validated. But I think it's absurd to kind of say this is the cause of inequality. Like to say, vanity is the cause of inequality. I think you're just missing a whole lot, dude. But I can't be wrong. I don't know. I think for me, what it explains is it tells me why it is that great men are bad. Like it tells me why that. Because to me, I don't think that power corrupts. Like I don't remember who said that, but like there's that quote everywhere power corrupts. Absolutely power. Absolutely. Yeah. I think fuck no. I think corrupt people, people who are already fucking corrupt. And this is why it is like they go to power. They find it. They seek it out. They will die rather than not have it. You know. And so to me, that's why it explains to me that why great men are bad. And like we look at Silicon Valley, there's almost no more rivalous place than Silicon Valley. About like comparisons with each other and like just this careerist obsession. And like I could have like fucking, I could have like fucking gone to school for something that was actually lucrative. Like I could have done that. I had the opportunity to do that. And I was just like, who fucking cares? Who fucking cares? You know, and now I'm like, I wish I was a little bit more rivalous when I was younger. You know. But like I think I think that it helps you in in a rivalous economy and economy that's based on that to be that way. It helps you financially. It helps you to fight and to get ahead in that way. And so like I just see that shit everywhere, you know. But it's like, it's definitely, it's not how I live my life and it might be to my detriment. You know what I mean in a way, like my material detriment. Yeah. So like in a world that's already been totalized in a world that's already been operationalized and fully instrumentalized, fully inflamed. This type of rivalry might be the only thing that allows you to kind of climb up the ladder and receive the material benefit. I can see that. And I would say that's fair. And I think because like in the utopian Canada that he kind of paints, like you can it is like much more equal. Like it doesn't matter as much. You don't have to be that rivalous. But in America in, you know, 2025, it's like the economy is just doggy dog. So it asks more of that of you, you know. As opposed to even America in the 1930s or something, you know, when it was everything was supposed to be hunky-dory. I'm less certain of that though. I think like what does it mean to say America is more like rival risk or more doggy dog? I don't, I don't know if that's true. I think America is just fucking skit so posting. Like I don't think there's any rhyme or reason to America at this point. And I think like Canada definitely has its fair share of like bullshit rivalry. Like look at Toronto. Like Toronto is a pretty, pretty gritty city. Yeah, yeah. That's what I meant is like he kind of presents Canada is like a little bit more utopian. than it is really. But by comparison with America, you could agree do a certain extent with him that it's more relatively more equal or whatever. I guess like like maybe in theory, but but but maybe and also I don't know if America operates on this rival logic. Like I think it's luck of the draw. And then after the fact will rationalize it and will do the edification and will and will build up identities after the fact. But I feel like America's far more random than it is like like deliberate competition can get you anywhere. If it were true that deliberate competition got you anywhere, then I think we probably would have a better world because there would actually it would it would be a real meritocracy. Like the smartest people would actually be the smartest people. They wouldn't just be some sick of anti dick suckers who are willing to count out to the fucking chief of staff or whatever. Yeah, maybe. Well, I think I might be like, I don't know. Because I think what you're saying is in out of step with what's in my head. I think you might be, you know, you like, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think I think I'm just trying to disagree with this guy. Ultimately, I think what it is because I don't like the guy's aesthetic and I and I want to I'm too vain to agree with this guy. And so that there's this resistance. And that's like I'm half being facetious. But I'm also like, I know I do see that like my initial reaction to this kid was like, I can't watch this guy. I have to only listen to this guy. Yeah. But, but even listening to it. And maybe it's because maybe I need to read Gerard because maybe I'm too suspicious of Gerard. But I also think maybe he should read some bowdry yard. And maybe he should read some marks because I think he brought up marks a couple times and I was like, ooh, yikes. Like that's. I don't remember what we're talking about Jonathan Byer, right? I don't remember what he said about marks. He said, I don't even remember. He said, I'm just talking about Mark Siss. He said, yeah. Yeah. Um, but I mean, I think that there's a, I think I remember him talking about like Bolshevins' style. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think that there's a, I think I remember him talking about like Bolshevins. I think that there's a lot of people who are like, I don't know. I think that there's a lot of people that are like, I don't really know what they're like. I think that they're like, I don't know what they're like. I think that there's a lot of people that are like, I don't know what they're like. I don't know what they're like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but I mean, I think that there's a, I think I remember him talking about, like Bolsheviks or Marxists. That's what I remember. Um, in which case like, there's probably a, like a type of a period in Bolshevism or a type of Marxist who was like that. But I do. I think that Marx was certainly, that's certainly like not accurate about like Marx to just say that he simply hated private property because it wasn't about, it wasn't about, he's not a Russoian Marxism. He doesn't care about inequality. Yeah. Really? Like, you know, it's not about this like moral justice point. Um, you know, so you also said, like you, you, you mentioned that you'd been thinking about power. Um, yeah. Like, and I don't know, I think what even is power, but also if we can agree on some definition for, for what power is like the question of should we seek it? Should we? I don't know, try to, I don't know, like power. I don't like power. I don't like the notion of power. I don't like thinking about power because it always feels useless and futile. Right. So I guess what I've been thinking about is like, I think a lot of like subcultures we could call them, um, whether we're talking about the Dharma bombs in the 60s or whether we're talking about punk in the 80s or whether we're talking about leftist intellectuals influenced by Foucault. Um, I think like a lot of these sort of subcultures we could call them like the place they go to die is by thinking power is evil. Yeah. You know, because like, and the reason I say that is because like, you know, in a, in a world, like you, you do have to survive, you know, and that's in a world in a, in a very competitive world, you do have to survive and that asks certain things of you, you know? Yeah. And so like the question to me is like between when you're caught between survival and your own principles, like what do you do? Like what if like you don't want your principles to be so rigid that they annihilate your entire movement or make it completely irrelevant. There was a Christian sect that didn't believe in having sex at all, and so they're not around today. Nice. Because they didn't procreate. They were so good. They were so good. Like they stood on business, dude. Right. Right. But then on the other hand, what are you, aren't you letting down all future generations if you're going to remove yourself? I don't know. That's my question. I mean, can't future generations read? No, really. Well, can they? Not based on today, dude. But no, I mean, like, so I think to be hyperbolic, I think isn't the problem with the world that we are always willing to give up our principles in the face of survival. And of course, that's an exaggeration. Of course, that's hyperbolic because like, that's stupid. But there is a huge part of me that says, like, no, that is what's wrong with the fucking world. Like I do think like we are constantly failing to live up to the ethical commandment to just be a human being. And if we can figure out how to do that, then the world would be a better place. But that leads me to want to say, well, why can't we figure out a project that doesn't require compromise? Like why? Like what is it with organizing or what is it with power? What is it with material conditions that make it so we can never find that sweet spot of yes, I'm going to stand on business because like ultimately, yeah, I think future generations would gain more from hearing examples like Socrates, right? Socrates died on principle. Like Socrates went out like a fucking pen. It's like the or example of that. Right. And I think that that gives us far more than a potential genetic lineage or whatever. Like, no, I would rather have a human legacy and like a rich history of good, strong examples to point to and say, well, this is what you should do. But if everybody did that and we didn't procreate anymore and we just died, then then you're right, then there wouldn't be future generations. But then I'm like, well, okay, I kind of feel like, I don't know, like I kind of feel like if, dude, if we can't solve the problem and maybe we don't deserve to solve the fucking problem, like maybe we will build robots that are better than us and they will be our fucking legacy. And they'll look back on us the same way we look at like our drunk uncles when they say, right, or homophobic shit. And we're like, it's okay. He just says dumb shit, but I still love him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. Like the AI that what was the reading you did? The confusion? Oh, uh, where's that book? I just fucking had it in my hand. Cultivating what is it? Cultivating intelligence, AI ethics and the philosophy of Mou Jean Song by. Yeah, what was her name? Anna Greenspan. Anna Greenspan. That's right. Yeah. Like she was talking about maybe the singularity won't like want to just massacre everyone. Like maybe it'll it'll actually like get to a point where it's like becomes enlightened or something like that. No, I'm skeptical of that. And I think yeah, yeah. But that would be the that would be the overcoming like the good version of the overcoming of of man by man, you know, would be like we we overcome the base parts of ourselves for like, you know, these the enlightened parts of ourselves. I I really like the way and Thompson put it. We recently did a reading. Sorry, I'm talking into my elbow. We recently read in Thompson's um, high degree on technologies danger and promise in the age of AI. And I think uh, he gives a similar, similar argument to the argument that Anna is making in in that essay, except with Ian. I think he does it without the metaphysics and I, I think I'm always going to prefer argumentation without going to metaphysics and Anna kind of deals with that inner essay. And it's like, yes, I am very Western brained. And I do think philosophy and metaphysics are different, even though philosophy is first metaphysics. But like um, I I think maybe it's not so much that we're going to build an AI that that is enlightened in this kind of confusion way. But I think like really kind of tearing with all the problems and really looking at, looking at problems not as like external to us, but being critical of ourselves. And now, but what does that even mean? I'm one of eight billion and I'm virtually powerless. Like how, how am I complicit and how can critical self reflection do anything to solve the world's problems? I don't fucking know. But I also know that like, I think the only way we're going to solve any real problems is by developing a broad critical reflexive ability to take things as like, no, this is my responsibility. So not to be the Peter teal and say, well, it's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it. But to really be like, I am guilty. Like I am a part of the problem. And I want to be a part of the solution. But I first have to know, I first have to understand like I am as much a part of the problem as Peter teal. And I think that's, that sounds absurd to say because Peter teal is a billionaire. He probably fucks kids. He's probably responsible for a bunch of murders. Like it's just the bare facts. And I'm just a dude. Like how can, how can you say that we're equally complicit in, in the evils of the world? But, but like I think the ethics that will get us out of the 21st century will see us in a way that says we are both complicit and to moralize and to try to talk about degrees of blame is missing the point entirely. Like we all have an ethical duty to this concept that we call the human. And it's up to each and every one of us. But, but then that sounds stupid and silly. And then I'm like, I think we're fucked, man. I don't know. We should probably all just go fucking die, dude. Yeah, because what's scary about Peter teal is he, he has a philosophy that he has a philosophy that he has studied that should tell him that what he's doing, that he's the anti-Christ. Like that's what? Yeah. And he's like, nah, I read that shit. And whatever. It's like I never knew it's great. That's like the myopia is just stunning. It's stunning. So I think it's like this has to be perverse, right? It has to be something that you disavow. No, it's right in front of your fucking face. But the thing is like for me, like that, that right there, the very fact that Peter teal is going on this crusade against the anti-Christ. But it's like, well, if you took that seriously, it'd be easier to say you're the anti-Christ homeboy, not like young. Yeah. But like that, I think what we can and should all learn from that is like we're we're doing that too. It's just not not at the global level. And it doesn't have global implications. But like I do that same operation in my daily life somewhere. And I think like it's up to it's up to every single one of us to hold ourselves accountable. Like and it's fun to sit back and watch Peter teal and Alex Carp and all these guys destroy the world. But like also like the the principles or the ethics or whatever that that I would hope I would have the courage to stand on would be like, well, I can see that they're doing that. I'm certain I'm also doing that. So if I want to be like an ethical person, I should probably claim my own room, you know, clean your own. But but not like not in a bitch made way. And then not to go talk about lobsters and die and then be resurrected 28 days later by some Russian doctor. What the fuck now I'm not he was in a coma for like a month because he was addicted to business. Um, to our Petersen is such a silly guy, dude, but yeah, he, uh, he spoke to wayward youth in a way that I think is valid. And I think those wayward youth, they need to be spoken to. And I think I think they do need to be told to clean their room. But I think we all need to be told to clean our room. I think Jordan Peterson needs to clean his fucking room too. And I think that was his biggest problem that he didn't clean his room. Right. He told everyone else to do but couldn't couldn't clean his own room. Yeah. Uh, on it, like, what - Oh, go on. - On that note, Bram with Strangex Isles is doing a series of essays, guest essays on masculinity, the crisis of masculinity on his sub stack. He recently had Jason Miles published one. I'll have one going up. I don't know the date. I actually, it might be published on the 21st, but everybody go to Substack and check out Strangex Isles, Bram's the Homeboy, I've just seen his series on masculinity. - Yeah, I've seen some of his, I've interacted with him a little bit on Substack, but I haven't gotten around really reading him. - He's a homie, dude. - In this book. - Yeah, this book. - 'Cause he, we had an interaction. To me, I subscribe to people on Substack whenever I leave a criticism of something they posted and then they respond in a not rival-risk way. If they respond, I see your point and they're willing to engage with you, then I subscribe to them. - Yeah. (laughs) - And that's what I did with him. I was like, I kind of pushed back on something and then he responded in a way that wasn't like, fuck you man, it was like, oh, I see what you're saying. Here's what I meant. - Yeah. Bram's a homie, but I, yeah. I think that's a good way to discover new writers on Substack is like, if they can withstand, and like come back and be like, oh, for sure, I see where you're coming from. I also like to follow people I just fucking hate. (laughs) But I'm too lazy. - I love being good in a way. Like, it can be good because then at least you're not stuck in a bubble. At least you understand perspectives you don't agree with. - Yeah. I don't wanna name anybody, but there's a, there are people who I fucking hate watch. And I'm too lazy to troll. I don't leave shady comments, but I absolutely consume a bunch of just mindless, right wing reactionary tripe. And I do think it's good. Like, I prefer that. Like, if I was just sitting around like, oh, let's all just have a leftist circle jerk, like, I think I would probably be dumber. - That's why, what the fuck is Blue Sky? Like, why does that exist? What the fuck? I heard some people, I was in a movie theater and some people were talking about it in like the fucking before the preview started. And I was like, wait, I forgot that this existed. People actually do that. - People are actually on that. - I'm not convinced it's real. - Like, why? (laughs) Like, really? Like, they were like, oh, Twitter is, or X now is, is meany, meany, meany, is a place where all the meanies hang out. So we're gonna go to world, there are no meanies. That's where we're gonna go. (laughs) Fuck the real world. We don't want any meanies. - Oh, I am so fucking dumb. - Yeah, that sucks. I, yeah, I've never seen Blue Sky. I'm not convinced it's real. I hear about it for a time to time. I don't think it's real. I think the only real Twitter alternative is mastodon and mastodon, no one uses mastodon. I think Blue Sky is a siaop. - Yeah. - It's just not real, dude. Like those people were CIA ops planted to fuck with you. To. (laughs) - Dude, that's more reasonable than what is probably the reality of the situation. Which is some people were like, all the right wing stuff is on X now and it's owned by a right wing baddie. And so now we're gonna leave and not criticize them at all and just talk to each other. Like what the fuck? - So is going on. - On Reddit, there used to be a subreddit called the Donald, R/TheDonald. And that was nuked a couple years ago because it just got out of hand. Like it was getting to the point where they were. - It was just far too extreme for Reddit. And like Reddit is like. - It's pretty extreme. - Yeah, it can get pretty extreme. But it is. Like it's like a filtered version of 4chan. I think like it's just everything from the internet that you can possibly imagine. But they filter it a little bit. So it's not too extreme. So the Donald was getting too extreme. So they like Reddit nuked it. And then they also nuked the choppo trap house subreddit. - No way, what? - Yeah, and did. - The like the theory behind it is that they were like, oh, they killed the biggest right wing thread. So they had to kill the biggest left wing subreddit or whatever. - Oh, that's crazy. So now we're gonna talk about Avatar, the choppo's they love Avatar. - Yeah. Yeah. But so on that note, or on Reddit thing. - And on Reddit thing. - Now our slash conservative is like the big hub for right wing shit on Reddit. And there's a million fucking subreddits. But if you go to our conservative, you're not allowed to post unless you've been like vetted by the moderators of our slash conservative because there were too many people coming in. And like not even fucking with people, but just talking a little shit, doing a little shit posting, doing like very light trolling. And the conservatives snowflakes couldn't handle it. And so they locked down the our conservative subreddit. And I just think it's funny, but I imagine that's what, I imagine that's what blue sky is like. Like it's like they can't handle any light pushback. And it's just locked down to like people who are not free. If you disagree with mainstream liberalism, you're a Nazi or some shit. I guess it's the real object. - I wonder if they were all object- - They're all object- - They probably do. - Oh, fuck, I don't know. I don't know. - Yeah, I don't know. - Wait, who is that again? - She's like a comel- - I know that name. - Comel-a-Harris 2.0. - She. - Oh, yeah, I know who that is. Yeah. - Yeah. - She has like, is she running or some shit right now? - Yeah, she had some wrapper for comments. Like she's doing really well, like optics-wise. Like she learned from the right how to do optics and how to like run a campaign. 'Cause for the longest time. - That's good, dude. - Good smart for her. - Because- - But she sucks ass. - She sucks ass. - She sucks ass. - She's like, comel-a-K2.0, dude. Like it's- - Yeah, well that's fucking light. - Yeah, she has good, she has good like, she's good with the vibes. She's got great vibe control. - Well that's all that matters. That's why I think America is just one giant skit's-o-post. Like I don't think America's real anymore. - Right. - I think we're just- (laughing) They just released the F-steem files and they just like instead of actually releasing it, they just put big black boxes over everything and we're like, that's not suspicious at all, guys. - Well, you are economy is not even real. So why would you- - I don't know. - I don't know. - Anything else to be real, dude. It's like just pure speculation. (laughing) It's like, and because they invented the Too Big To Fail, that is a thing, it can go on forever now, 'cause the government just keeps supporting it. And like that's what a, shit what's his name? Drawing a blank. This is not my idea, but I thought it was like, "A-Duh, like obviously after someone else said it." That like they're gonna make AI Too Big To Fail. Like yes, it's a bubble. - Oh yeah. - But the second it bursts, they're just gonna prop it up. - What's my note? 'Cause it'll take the entire economy with it. - They force through legislation where states can no longer legislate AI companies for the next decade. And I fuck- - Fuck, bro. - That's fucking nuts. - No, it's insane. - That's insane. So it's going on right now. Like here in Phoenix, we already have several data farms. We already have a couple chip manufactories. Microchips have always been big in Phoenix. I think it's because we're, it's very dry here. It doesn't get humid, so it's good for production. I don't fucking know, but my whole life, there have been multiple chip fabs. They're building TSMC, the Taiwan Super Micro computer corporation, which is why we're really at war with China. All this stupid people freaking out about Chinese AI. It's not, it's about Taiwan. It's about TSMC. It's about control over the chips. I act like fucking, anyway, they're building a new fab down here. There's a proposition to build another data farm, like just down the road from my house. And it's like, so now what the state can no longer step in and regulate, the municipalities can no longer step in and regulate. Like they're just gonna, like our power keeps going up, our water bill, they're raising our water bill, 25%. Like that's insane. Like unheard of cost-deliving increases in the past year. And so like that too big to fail is really gonna hurt a lot of people that live near where they actually locate all this data farm and infrastructure. But I think, no, I think we're just gonna do this death spiral and then it's gonna be like Russia in the 1990s. We're gonna get Balkanized and China, We're like, we're like, We're gonna have to be like, "Hey, China, do humanitarian fucking NGO missions over here to the United States of America." I think we're fucked, dude. We're just doomed. I think it's like, I think before the American state splits apart into semi-angry, I think the environment will give out first. Yeah. I really do. I think the one thing about the Constitution is they really did a good job. The job of making it so that coups aren't a thing, you know, and making it so that revolutions, like, yeah, there's this language in there about like sort of making room for revolution, but that went out the fucking window the second that warfare became as asymmetrical as it is today. So like, which brings me to something completely different, but like, yeah, I just think that I think that the fucking environment will give out or the geopolitical, the geopolitical scenario will explode before the United States implodes internally. Like, there will be war with China before America is integrated. I think, yeah. And I think it'll be that war of aggression that is like the final death blow to America. Like we will expend dollar resources. It'll be like Germany in the 40s. Like we will expend dollar money and then, you know, maybe China or maybe, you know, parts of Europe will come in and split us up. It'll be East USA versus West USA. Who knows? Yeah. But I do. Like, I am convinced that America is over on now. I'm convinced that we're set on track to be over. Now maybe things could change and we could actually like, when back are the country that we had, like when I was growing up, because I don't know, man, America has done a lot of fucked up shit. Every country's done a lot of fucked up shit. I think America has also been a good place for a lot of people too. Yeah. I think it would be better if we could like get stability and be a real country again. Yeah. Then if we just totally collapsed. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Like, yeah, like I'm not totally not sitting here being like America should get what's coming to it and be destroyed. You know, I'm like, it's just, do we have the fucking will to fucking change? And the answer to me seems like in a stount, like a, you know, no, we don't want to change at all. What it is to me, the road to me, the rivalry thing kind of explains why to a certain extent, you know, because we're having too much, we're having too much fun. We're enjoying the way things are now. Like enjoyment combined with rivalry to me. I'm like, yeah, we like it like this, you know, enough that we that we don't want to change it. I'm on board with, with the enjoyment and the super ego. And I'm like, I'm at, I think the super ego is, is the rubber, the rubber band and the duct tape that's holding America together at this point. And I think if we had some type of catastrophic failure where we couldn't get our, we didn't have our on demand services. I couldn't deliver everything I ever wanted. Like if that broke or ruptured in somewhere, I do think it would wake people up and they would hit the students. Well, I think 100% like people talk about the American Civil War and that shit. And I'm like, I always tell people like that will not, not even a chance of an American Civil War happening unless there's an economic downturn big enough that the grocery stores are empty. You know, that should happens that all bets are off. But no one, no matter what people say and post on Twitter or whatever, or on Blue Sky, they don't, nobody, nobody fucking gives a shit. Like no one really cares enough to fucking uproot their lives to put their, to like really risk anything. Yep. If the, if the, unless the treat stopped blowing, you know, as long as that shit, the flows keep going, the economy keeps buzzing. No one must really do. It's all, yeah, dude, it's all just talk and tell them. So I think that's where I'm at. So I, I see it at the level of validation of your symbolic identity and, and that's what the commodity does. Like it's not just enjoyment. It's also the case that when you're uprooted and you're just kind of lost at sea and you can cling to some kind of symbolic identity and you can have that validated. That's comforting. It's going back to the narcissism, the solipsism, like the perversion, all the stuff we've been talking about for a while. But I, I don't see where the, the rivalry really has this political force to, to determine the global conditions. I don't know. Well, I just think like look at the example of the way people think about politics at all in America. It's just like I think Trump gets all of his power from the fact that he's hated so vehemently by the left, by liberals. Like that's where he draws his power from, you know? And so like that's why I'm like, of course I'm not saying we shouldn't criticize Trump. I'm just saying when we criticize Trump, we should like pay attention to the fact that if we say Trump is bad, then what people hear is that Kamala is good. So that's all I'm saying about that kind of shit is like the, the left right spectrum right now is just like it's absurd. It's just such a completely theatrical thing. They're not talking about reality at all. And so the reason why this can go so far off of reality is because this rivalry has a logic of its own, you know what I mean? I mean, so I think the like the rivalry, yeah, but I think it's more so like the commodity form like these identities, these categories are commoditized and they have to be self identical. So you have to either be of the left or of the right. You have to be one or the other. It's it's this dichotomous relationship. The commodity is always either X or Y. Like that there is no room for nuance. But isn't the commodity like pure multiplicity though? Like you have an infinite, it gives you the illusion at least of the infinite selections. No, the commodity is always a definite, definite self identical object. There is a multiplicity of commodities, but the like the logic of the, of the commodity is such that there is always a definite solution to your immediate problem. Now the fact that there's that. There's this spurious infinity or there's this ongoing multiplicity of separate commodities. But the thing with like with the logic of the commodity, each one is definite. Each one is defined as a separate thing. So you don't like yes, there is this perceived rivalry going on. But what's really operating is like we have onboarded the logic of the commodity itself. We have we have given up the ability to be uncertain. Like who we are our sense of self, this, this ongoing process that we're projecting out ahead of us is uncertain. And in fact, the minute you name it, you negate it. Like the minute you let it become a definite article, you've killed it. Right. Isn't that why you're not allowed to say like you're not allowed to say the name of God, you know what I mean? Like once you name it, like I feel like that's kind of a good thing is like once you name it, then it's like then that you're being idolatrous. The similarity there between like God of religion again and in commodity fetishism, right? You know, I absolutely, yeah, I absolutely see that, that like I think the commodity is a very religious thing. But like that's what's going on. It's the definition. It's the identity. It's not just a rivalry. So yeah, there is a rivalry at play because Trump is so popular because all the annoying liberals that scolded tons of regular guys who just wanted to work and have fun and maybe they made a joke that was off color and they didn't really understand it at the time. Like they're annoyed at the liberals. And so they're like Trump is their new champion. So the rivalry, yes, it's a thing. But I think the rivalry is secondary. And I think what's, which is why I prefer bowdryard to this Rousseauian view. And I think the idea of vanity as opposed to care is important. And I think it goes on to be developed by many thinkers. But I like, I prefer a more bowdryardry and take on it than just this simple kind of vanity versus care. Because then it also, it also, the argument that like vanity is necessary or inequality is necessary for greatness. I, first of all, I reject that. And second of all, I also agree that greatness is also probably bad. But I also think like we could probably come up with greatness without the vanity. Like I think the cavemen, tens of thousands of years ago, they weren't necessarily in competition with the other cavemen, but they still achieve greatness, relative, you know, the paintings on the fucking cave walls, that was great for their time. And the discovery of fire and the discovery of the wheel and the discovery of rudimentary physics and toolmaking and flint napping and like all these things, I think that is relative greatness. And today, what is greatness? Is it going to Mars? Is it planetary projects? I don't know. But great is. - I think the argument would be that like, it's not the only thing going on. Like there is just like interest. But like, I think the argument would just be that like flint napping, for instance, or cave painting, that those things excel and develop to enlarge part in human society because of rivalrous competition. And which isn't to say that like, this has to result in all artists and flint nappers trying to kill each other. But it is to say that like, a certain amount of rivalry is like productive, but also it can go so far that they, then they want to murder each other, you know? - So Rousseau does talk about this, where he's like, you can actually sublate vanity into like a pro social force. And yeah, at that level for sure. And like I think friendly competition. - Yeah, right. - Like, like fucking like bouncing shit back. Like when I write, I like to turn a phrase. I like to say something that pleases me because I think it's like clever word play or whatever. And so there's an element of friendly rivalry in that, for sure. - Sure, sure. - So yeah, like the Rousseauian sublation of vanity back into care for yourself and the other for sure. John, Jonathan Bayer wasn't saying that. - I think he was. - He mentioned that. - I'll have to watch it again. - Okay, yeah, yeah. 'Cause I think if you watch the whole thing, it's pretty like clear that he's doing a service to Rousseau. And it's like it comports with what other people have, I've heard like, have talked about Rousseau and, yeah. But in the discourse of inequality, I think he does a good service to it like for sure. But I think he does talk about that and like, but yeah, that's just, I think that like rivalry isn't just like, simply evil, but I think it can't, it just seems like pretty clear to me that it can snowball to this point where it becomes like this thing that just tears entire societies apart. And I feel like that's a lot of what we're seeing now. You know, so I'm just like, like I, something I said on sub-sack is just like, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe that this that Gerard was not right. He was not correct about this, like the more I look around, you know. And it's connected to the sense of course, like, but like I think that the way in which we find enjoyment is often through this competition. And then the commodity form is a way in which we express it. And that's why the commodity form works. These are all these things work together, right? Because like, we buy shit to keep up with the Joneses. There's a rival risk component there, you know. And that's where we get the primary enjoyment. It isn't from the use value of the commodity itself. It's from the fact that we can compare ourselves to someone else who has a relate, a similar, but slightly different commodity. - I think keeping up with the Joneses, that was, I think there was a TV show that was called that. But I think that keeping up with the Joneses logic isn't real anymore. I think we have-- - Oh, we surpassed it, for sure. - Like I think we've transcended the Joneses to the point where we're in a rivalry with like a virtual other, like a simulation of the other because we're more in the general peer, dude. - Yeah, the general peer. Yeah. - I like it. I just think, I don't know. I think there's more going on than just like rivalry or just mimesis, but I also like-- - Yeah, there is. - Yeah. - But I think there is, it's just that, like I think the reason why it's salient, it's not to say that like all human experience is reducible to rivalry. But the reason why it's salient is because like, when bad things happen in the world in history, it tends to be rivalry at the center of it. It would be the argument, you know? When things explode, it tends to be that things have gotten to a boiling point, based largely on this fundamental social component. - So like-- - When it gets to that point of exploding, it's no longer just keeping up with the Joneses, it becomes scapegoating and it becomes like, you are the root of all evil. And you are precisely the thing that I must exercise from existence. - Yeah. - And I think G-Jex kind of picking up on some of this stuff when he's talking about lynchings and the enjoyment. - Yeah, do that shit. - You know? Where the fuck is this book? I just moved all my books around. - This book, "Metastases of Enjoining It," where he actually talks about in chapter three, "Super Ego" by default. And he goes into it in a lot of other places, but that's probably the best essay or chapter or whatever he's written is chapter three of "Metastases of Enjoining It." - I need to read that one. I haven't read that particular G-Jex. - Yeah. - And I think it's not as popular 'cause it's like a book about woman. What's the subtitle? Six essays on women in causality. And so I think most people see that and they're like, "Wam, man." - Yeah. - A lot of people do not want to hear Slavoy G-Jex talk about. (laughing) And I don't blame him. I don't blame him. But no, I do think this is, this is canon fucking G-Jex. - Yeah, for sure. - So. - Yeah. And one thing like, like, lash talks about is like the cult of survival that like, I don't know. I wasn't really going anywhere with that. But I just think that that's something he points out and I see that everywhere too, where we've gotten to this point where like, we just glorify base life. We glorify survival. And to me that like comports with this idea of like, life being a struggle of competition. - Yeah, bear life, right? - Bear life. - Yeah. And that's what we kind of glorify. Like because we don't, we've decided as a society collectively that like having free time to like be a human and like, goof around is not important and doesn't matter at all. Like we've made that collective decision you could call it at a certain point. Like, and that wasn't always that way 'cause Kurt Vonnegut, a great American writer, is very like the thrust of his thought is like we're here to goof around. - Yeah. - Like, you know, he says that explicitly. And so it's like, it was not like America was always like that, but that one out, that life is about striving, working, and that worked out because of a lot of economic changes. - I think, and actually, I think he says we're here to fart around is the direct quote, but anyway. - So I like that. I like the, life is, it is more than just struggling at and finding meaning in the struggle. What's that quote, dude? Tupac says that in front of one of his songs. Or no, DMX says that in front of one of his. To live is to survive, or to live is to suffer. To survive is to find meaning in the sufferer, whatever the fuck it is. And it's, what the fucking quote is that? Is that Nietzsche? Now I can't remember like, who, where did that originally come from? Anyway. - It sounds like something Nietzsche might say, or someone might misquote Nietzsche saying also. - But no, the striving versus the farting around. I, the piece that is going up on Strange Exiles that I wrote, kind of touches on that, like striving versus actually, like living a full life. And yeah, Kurt Vonnegut, Bukowski, all those guys, the Dharma Bums, all those guys, they were all into farting around. But they didn't win. And I think it, like you said, it's largely down to neoliberalism. And we needed new structures and capital-innovated new structures for us to kind of model ourselves after. Like the economic proposition of more, more, more, more, more came to represent the phallus in this way, whereas before we had different family structures, and we had different economic opportunities. And so we had more opportunities for edification. And we could go fart around and still be seen as like, manly men, or successful men, or successful humans, or whatever. But neoliberalism did so much to knock our socio-economic boots out from under us. Like it was replaced with just work, work, work, work, work, be useful, be useful, be useful. And it's like, no, I don't think. I want to, I want a fucking skateboard. Like the coolest thing about skateboarding is that it's a useless wooden fucking toy. And it's like the most free I ever feel is when I'm writing my useless wooden fucking toy and I'm trying so hard and I'm injuring myself and I'm a fucking old man trying to do dumb, stupid, acrobatic tricks on a fucking toy. And then I realize like this is freedom. - Right. And we all have that, whether it's art, whether it's music, whether it's reading, whether it's writing, whether it's just enjoying nature or enjoying film or whatever it is. Like we all have these situations where we can, we should, it is ethical to realize I'm wasting time from this perspective of capital. Like I'm doing this for me. I'm doing this for my own pleasure, for my own enjoyment, my own edification, gratification. And we're gonna get, we're gonna get into batai soon, but Mikey, but like who's a better thinker of that, of waste, of the importance for society, of waste, right? Of having these things that are just peer expenditures. Like that's so important for society, the even function. I think it's important for us to even be able to be human is like I am going to decide where I expend this effort. Like all, like with batai, you could just take a labor ontology for granted. You don't have to, but you could. And you could just be like, okay, life is suffering, life is pain, life is miserable. And, but then batai is like, well, I'm gonna be suffering anyway. I might as well choose how I suffer. I might as well choose the qualities of my suffering rather than just falling prey to this quantitative demand of like you have to manufacture X amount of widgets in X amount of time. It's like, no, like the truly human act is to say, I choose to waste my time in this way. I reject your authority. I reject your commandment to waste my body for the sake of your time and your profit. I'm going to waste your time and your profit for me. Yeah, it's otherwise it's not waste 'cause it's like you're in a way 'cause you're being instrumentalized. So you're being used for a purpose other than your own. So you're not being treated as an end in yourself unless you're wasting. That's why I think the word waste is weird. I've been thinking about the word waste for years, dude, 'cause it like from the human perspective, like the commodity is pure waste 'cause it's not, like the commodity is not real, the commodity is not, like it doesn't actually solve your problem. Like the way it works is that it doesn't solve your problem and so you move on to the next commodity and the next one and the next one. And so it operates by this continued need to purchase another commodity. So the commodity is already necessarily waste from the human perspective. And what we think of as wasting time, like writing a skateboard or reading a poem or writing a poem or listening to music or making music or whatever, things that are called wasting time, like that's actually like the best thing you can do, it's not wasteful at all, it's actually constructive. So, the move I wanna make is to take the word waste back and like make waste possible. Oh, dude, yeah. That's the idea. But and I like, I like, like, but you could go the other way too. Is it expenditure? Is it effort? Is it waste? Yeah, like, and the thing is like it. 'Cause I like how in volume one of the accursed chair, it's like he's, it's like he's saying that the all of the major world religions, like the reason why, like the reason why into bet it is, they actually achieved a peaceful society is that there were so many fucking monks. And so, all of the, all of what could have been martyled for like violence or something, just got consumed, literally consumed and shit out by the monks. Yeah. I mean, and like, and so it was the sheer number of them, not so much precisely what they were saying, 'cause all these different religions of the world preach non-violence. But to bet actually accomplished it just because there were so many fucking monks, you know? And so I love that, like the major world religions, like these are waste products. Like I actually love that, you know what I mean? And I think like that's the, and so is everything else that we hold like dear and precious. In a sense, it's, when it comes down to the matter and the material, it's waste, you know? And waste to us, that's where we get our edification. Yeah, you know? Yeah. It's, I, no dude, I'm excited to, we'll be doing some batai. I think, I think batai is probably one of the most important under hyped thinkers of the current moment, just 'cause that, like that logic of waste, I think is a way to kind of escape the super egoic feedback loop that's kind of keeping us trapped in the logic of the commodity. Yeah, 'cause it answers the question when people are like, like Mikey likes to talk about how his coworkers are like, I don't know what I would do if we didn't have to work. It answers that question, you know what I mean? It's like, fart around. Do whatever you want. That's actually, yeah. Do whatever the fuck you want. But what you do besides work and consume and by bullshit you don't need is, you will find some way to waste in your own way that you might not even know about yet. Yeah, dude, you'll have the time to discover the way that you want to waste, that you choose to waste your time. Yeah. And no, I think it's, I think waste is important. But it's also, like it almost becomes like a double on Tondra at times because all capital does is eat sunlight and shit dead humans in the form of commodity objects. So it's like talking about waste. I don't know. It's just, it's a really rich conversation. I'm glad that we're gonna be actually reading it and spending all the time on it. But Ty is one of my favorite guys. So. - I'm super convinced. Like I read the volume one of the accursed Sharon. It was like completely blew my fucking mind. Like I'm completely convinced that it's one of the most important modern pecs that has ever been written. And I just read it, which is like, you know, I haven't sat with it that long, but I was just instantly like holy shit. It almost felt like, you know. - The thing that annoys me is that people are like, oh yeah, but Ty, you know, like spooky edgy, like let's cut someone's head off. Like people only like people only like the edgy shit with Patai and like his edgy fiction and shit. And it's like no dude, the general economy, the solar economy is where it's at. Like that's what we should be reading and celebrating when we talk about Patai. Not blood shit and sex. Not what was he getting into it? - Because you've read a lot of that other shit, right? So like what, what do you think that there's besides the accursed share? Do you think that there's like outside of those volumes? Do you think that there's stuff in Patai that's worthwhile? - Yeah, I do. I think, but it's only, no, I would say, read, I don't know, there's probably better shit that you could read. I would probably recommend read LaCon because a lot of it has to do with like subjectivity and the psychological animal, like the way our psyche works with a lot of the like the linchy stuff and all the weird shit and the perverse shit and the erotism. And I think it's interesting. And I think if you are comfortable with Giecek or Todd McGowan or you go straight to LaCon or probably even Freud, like, yeah, if you're comfortable with that, then go read erotism and death because I think it's interesting and it adds to that. Like it adds on to an understanding of the lichenian subject. But I would say if you haven't read Freud or LaCon or Giecek or Todd McGowan, go read those guys before you read the other, but Patai. Because I think then you'll just fall into the edgy, ooh, it's all about blood, shit, and sex and it's all about like the limit experience. Like come on, dude, the limit experience, that's the sacred and the profane and the heterogeneous and the homogenous. Like, yeah, these are all just different ways to talk about a lot of what Giecek, a lot of what LaCon is already talking about. And I think LaCon does it better because he has a better, like he has the split subject. Like the lichenian subject is just, yeah, that's the best theory of the subject. Betai doesn't really have that. But he is keen on some, like he's very insightful, for sure. Yeah. But the solar economy, the general economy, the current share of the solariness, like whatever. I think that is like the real theoretical contribution of Betai. Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah. Cool. Power. Did we finish talking about power? No, no. Like this ethical, like the moment of-- Yeah. I think about when it comes to survival, it's like I think like, like if the world demands that we are bad to survive in it, like the question-- maybe this is the ethical question-- is like at what point should we-- at what point should we just give up on our principles and survive? Or like how much should we hold on to them? Because like if you're too principled, you will just die for anything that contradicts what you-- if everything is a principle for you, you will just have to kill yourself. Yeah. So it's like choosing what your principles are. I think this is like the tricky ethical question and choosing when they apply and when they don't. You know? Is it-- I've been thinking about that because I'm like, I've just seen so many people in recent history, just so many movements and different ideas because they can't keep up with the economy and the churn. In your terms, like because they can't-- they can't adapt to neoliberalism. They can't adapt to the scenario we're in. Like punk died. So many leftist revolutionary, like utopian movements have died. And I think a large part of it is because they can't adapt with this fucking churn. They can't stay with the way the economy is. So it's just something I've been thinking about. Is like-- isn't ethics of universal lack. Like is saying universal lack is what defines me and living up to that universal lack is what completes me as a human. And to-- like I guess what I mean by saying, like universal lack is what completes me is just that I'm this socially constituted being. Like I exist. I am imperfect. I am flawed. I am nothing in isolation. Like I am necessarily dependent on the world and the others within the world to make my life worth living. And they are also lacking. So universal lack is just this. We are all in this boat together. And we all have a duty to each other. And I can't honor myself before honoring you. Like is that enough to build an ethical structure that I could say, yeah, I will stand on this principle. And now that means that every encounter is going to be singular. You can't formalize it. You can't have the categorical imperative. You can't say in situation A, you must always do B. In situation X, you must always do Y. The thing is, in situation X, you must always do what is fitting to situation X. And it goes on infinitely. Like is that an ethical framework? Is it naive to say I don't want to, if we can't figure it out, then I don't want to live. Right. Is that naive? I think no, I don't think it's naive. I think that's realist. That's entirely realist because you're saying, I'm okay with the consequences, whatever comes. Like if we can't live in a world that's human. Yeah, I don't want to live. I think that's where we have to be. Otherwise, there is no point. Otherwise, we're already dead. We might be walking around, but we're already fucking dead. And I think that's increasingly the world we're living in. It's like, I was talking to this. I have a coworker from Uruguay. And they have Ciestas there in the middle of the day. And we were just talking about American Protestant work ethic and stuff like that. And I'm like, dude, I just looked at him and I was like, dude, I don't, why are we even doing any of this? Like, why? Why? What's the point? Like, there's no reason at all. Like, why are we working? Like, why is our rent so fucking high that we have to work? Like, none of this makes any sense. It's not real, you know? So, but I think like the world is, and we do have to get to that point. And this is why both Marcusa and Giezek have kind of similar ideas that the connection is right there when it comes to, in Marcusa, the great refusal. And when it comes to Giezek and I would prefer not to. Partly. I think they're very similar in that way. And I think what I don't know is like, what the fuck does that look like? Like, how do we actually live that? I have no idea. Like, I don't really know. Like, I know in that one instance or another, I think that person's kind of doing it. And then this person's definitely not. But like, how does that scale up? Is it possible to scale up or would scaling up be to instrumentalize it to enclose it to make it something that is unrecognizable from the perspective of the ethic that we wanted in the first place, you know? Yeah, dude, I don't. I don't know. I think we have to assume there's enough space in the world. Like, you know, people say like, this town ain't big enough for the two of us. And like, that always winds up being the justification for why I'm going to go kill the guy at the duel at noon. I challenge you to guns at noon or whatever. Like, we have to create a world where there is enough room in the town for everybody. But we can't do that. Like, we have to somehow affect global change. And I don't think we can affect, I don't think there's any way for us to affect global. Like, I think we kind of have to wait this one out. Like, I feel like we flick the dominoes and now they're starting to fall over in their main picture. Or we're walking on the top of the hill and we accidentally stumbled and started an avalanche. And we missed our opportunity to go and catch the boulder. And now it's picked up so much momentum that we can't stop it. So we just have to allow it to happen. And then once it's done, then we go in and rearrange. Yeah. And I think this is another thing I've said about Trump is like when people complain about Trump, I'm like, it's too late for these complaints. This list of complaints you have about him, like it's way too late. Like, we already created a system in which we're voting based on charisma and vibes. Like, and that's, so it's too, and you were doing it for Obama. Yep. That Obama is all charisma and vibes. So like, it's way too late to complain about Trump. In that sense. So it's like the dominoes, in that respect too, like the dominoes are already fucking falling. We needed to go back a long time. So to fix any of this shit, and that's political politics is just an example. Yeah. So, and then there's gonna be people, or there already are people, like I'll express the way I feel, and they'll say, well, you can't do that. You don't have a get out of jail free card. You can't run from the world. You can't retreat from the world. You have to be in the world. And the world demands political action. And I'm like, okay, like I agree with you, but what political action? What? Yeah. Yeah. The world is screaming for action. It is, but it's not it. No one's in a position to do anything. The people who aren't positions to do anything aren't going to. Yeah. But even Peter Teal, can Peter Teal really do anything? Like, I don't think so, dude. I don't think he, like as one person, I don't even, no matter how many billions he has, can he really, I think he would have to organize all of the billionaires in the world together, and that's not going to happen. Yeah. To, and, you know, because they all have different interests. They're all in competition with each other. Yeah. But I think it, like I think it goes all the way down to like our baseline understanding of what it means to be a modern human. And we're trapped inside that just the same [BLANK_AUDIO] like Peter Tiel and Elon Musk are like, like we view ourselves in this context and we have to try to do something to change that context. And that's, I think all we can do, like, recontextualize what it means to be a human, what it means to be a subject. And I don't think that, I don't think there is any political action that currently does that. I think we have to think our way out of this one. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. I guess it's just a matter of thinking our way out of it, but like thinking, thinking differently, making ourselves, like, how to say it, thinking our way out of it and working on ourselves and working with other people to improve ourselves. And really the soul is what we're trying to improve. Like there's not a better word for it, really. You don't have to believe in an immaterial soul. But like, improvement of the soul, I think is what we, the only thing we can do now. And it's always been the most important thing to do. And I think it's all we can do. Now, so we might as well just do that to the utmost. Because then we create a scenario where hopefully there are enough improved souls that when there is action to be done, then it can be done. And it will be done in a way that doesn't just create a dog chasing its own tail. It just doesn't add to the chaos, you know. That's the only answer I fucking got, you know, like, that's it. I think that's no, I think that's it. I think that's what I think I'm trying to do. But it's it is always nice to like double check on that and be like, Hey, man, are we just sitting over here cleaning out our belly button lint? Right. But no, I, yeah. But I do think, I don't know, there's there's a part of me that wants to champion the naive idealist who says, like stand on business. Like it, no, I will not accept a world that will not allow me to be ethical or whatever. We just, we don't like, we have to build that world. Like it's the right. We can't get it overnight. Like it's going to take probably generations. Yeah. I just watched, uh, I think, and I think the timescale is important. Like the reason why it seems like there's nothing to do is because we're thinking in such short timescales. We're not thinking in terms of generations. Yeah. You know, we're thinking in terms of like, what do we do right now? And I think it's kind of insane, actually, to be that impatient, to assume that at every moment in history, every generation always has something it can do. Like that's not how the world works. Like sorry, the peasants live for thousands of fucking years in Europe and there was nothing anyone could do. But do not, like not every moment is a revolutionary moment, even a proper Marxist. I'll tell you that. That's why we have to recontextualize because we, we onboarded this immediate gratification logic, the logic of the commodity. Uh, this is the immediate solution to, to the problem before me. That's very Todd McGowan and capitalism and desire. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so we have to, yeah, we have to break ourselves of that fantasy of, of seeing, uh, that kind of return on our investment um, or maybe even just forget about the idea of investment and return and start thinking about like, yeah, and start thinking about like waste. I have to expose myself to risk. I have to be willing to waste in this way. Yeah. That's why in my, uh, the, uh, the most recent thing I put on sub-stack was about, uh, the accursed share. Yeah. And, uh, I was like, dude, you've heard about, I say it, like towards the end, I'm like, you've heard about, um, effective altruism and then you've heard about effective accelerationism. Let's do effective decadence. Yeah. Let's do that. Let's like, let's, let's like accumulate money from the fucking bullshit corporate system just so we can spend it on sheer bourgeois waste. You know, like, let's take a fucking, let's take a, uh, uh, seven hour tour, uh, on a desert island. Let's fucking, uh, let's eat, do buy chocolate. But only if that makes you happy. Only if you want to. Yeah. Don't do it. So you can put it on Instagram. Do it because it genuinely brings you joy and edification. And dude, and that's precisely why you just said bring put to put it on Instagram in order to do that. That's precisely why Peter Teal is fucking nuts because he read Gerard about fucking mimesis and competitive rivalry and was like, I'm going to, I'm going to invest in a machine for that very purpose of just competition and mimesis. That's what Facebook is essentially. Yeah. And that's why he's like, okay, if you take Gerard seriously, you think that in accelerating that is going to bring about the apocalypse. You know, yeah. Um, and so that's like, that's why I'm like the fucking, it's the myopia is just stunning, you know, but anyway, I mean, bring up Gerard again, but why I just like, I, I do wonder, I do think about these rich guys a lot. And I just wonder like, are they, are they real or are they just like figments of my met? No. Uh, they're, they are shocking. I think they're fucking all stupid. I just think they're all fucking stupid. Like really dumb. And I don't think they're stupid. I think they're stupid in the sense of like, stupid. Yeah. In the sense of like, you've got yourself in like, they're not like retard. Like, no, no, no, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they're, yeah, they're, they're all, myopia, they're all shortsighted. They're all self, uh, they lack critical distance. They think they are all the greatest things since sliced cheese. Like they, they all just think like, I am God. And whoever I don't like is the antichrist. Like all of them, every single one of them. So, yeah, um, avatar dude, we, uh, we, we've been talking about avatar for at this point, like a couple of weeks. Uh, you and my gear. Yeah. And, uh, we brought a, I want to see the new one. I want to watch, I haven't seen it yet. I've heard that's where Mikey is right now. He might be done. No way. Dude, I like him. I like the avatar movies. I, I, I enjoy them. I'm not going to like even beat around the bush about it. I think what's weird, like, like you brought up how the, uh, you and Mikey were both talking about how they're not like going to be beloved in the same way that Star Wars is. And I think that's absolutely true. But I think the reason is is because they're fucking CGI. Like, they're not real. They're faces like, no matter how well you get that fucking motion capture, it's still not a real person. It's too uncanny. So yeah, you just can't relate with it. I'm sorry, in the way that you can with a fucking Luke Skywalker, you know, Han Solo. I think, but I don't think so. I think the kids, I think the kids, um, are okay with that. They're okay with it. But I mean, on an unconscious level, you're not going to be able to develop the same bond or connection with the characters. Well, I, okay, but I think, um, yeah, but I, I don't think that's avatars. Maybe that's not the real problem. Like, maybe the problem is that we're like, mechanizing the unconscious to the point where we don't have that unconscious connection with anything anymore. But isn't that because things are written so fucking poorly like, because like, yeah, yeah. But I don't think it comes down to them being AI and uncanny. I just think that's part of it. I don't think it's not probably not all of it, but I think that's a factor, you know, maybe it's not even uncanny. Like, they're not, they're so, they're realistic enough that they're not even really uncanny. But it's like, they're, they're too real. Like, they're hyper real. They're hyper really. So they don't feel real because because they're so, it's the same reason like AI images and AI videos, like sometimes for a short period of time, they look really real. Yeah. But like, they're too real. They're too good. It's like HD. It's like, they're too clear. Dude, that like, I think that's, that's what I'm trying to get at. Yeah. With, uh, with digital photography, we went through, uh, a phase of that. Gosh, maybe 10 or 15 years ago at this point where digital photography got to the, to the hyper real level. Um, and yeah, it became, it was, it was like, uh, it was a moment and it changed. People's relation to taking photos and it changed people's relation to consuming photos and Instagram was the cause of it because people were editing for Instagram. Like, people were no longer taking photos to be hung in, how, homes or to be put up on billboards or whatever. Like, people were taking photos for Instagram and that hyper real style blew up on Instagram and totally, changed the world of photography to the point where I love photography but I don't like I'm not connected to it like I once was like that's what happened I think ruined it for me that's exactly what happened to me in film like when I was I was like in high school like I was like my dream was I was gonna be like the next Stanley Kubrick you know like I wanted to go into film I wanted like be a director you know what I mean and that's what I was like obsessed with and then like when I started working in film in the age of digital I think I was just like not only is the industry kind of shitty but the technology itself like just doesn't have the like kind of romance that like film for me had like I'd such like a hipster fucking thing to say but I think it really did like I wasn't able to have the same like the bit in the connection that I thought I would because I was watching fucking these 70 millimeter movies you know I was already you know I was watching or 35 millimeter whichever I was watching these old films that were shot on film and that's where I got a lot of my like my enjoyment was through that not through like this digital 4k and and when you can watch movies on your phone when you're not going into the cinema yeah like to me it I think it was it was filming it was cinema that I like loved when I was a lot when I was younger and then as I got older I was like I started working in the industry and not only was I stuck on fucking reality TV shows that are just like bottom of the lake capitalist barrel I love TV I love I mean I was working on fucking trash trash to trash your like love that for lock up I don't know what that is but I was awesome. It sounds great dude. Like but it's I'm telling you like it's worse to work on it. Oh that's so it's so it's fucking so like exploitative of people and their bad decisions and their bad life choices and their own neuroses yeah and all that shit it's so it's it's it's it feels degrading to work on it. The show hoarders have you ever seen the show hoarders dude? yeah yeah yeah I watched one episode of that motherfucker and it I was like oh my God and I actually I need to go back and and write that piece because I was like I was upset dude I was like oh my God this is this is horrible and like how I've been I've gone into it. I've gone into way too many because I've worked in like moving industry so I've gone into houses that I just was like no we're not doing this. Yep fuck that. Yep. Yeah. So I've seen plenty of those fucking homes which is a weird American phenomenon by the way like you don't see fucking immigrants like coming here no matter how poor they are like living like that. It's because the commodity gets into your fucking brain and like it does. America is nothing if not just the pure essence of capital like America was invented or it was I don't know fucking declared independent or whatever right around all the the confluence of all these other forces that account for capitalism so modernity and industrialization and capital and America like it's all the same thing. So America is just capitalism and like we are subjective subjectivized as capitalist subjects and so we like that logic of the commodity gets into our fucking bones and like you yeah you see people who are suffering from this weird dysfunction but they're doing exactly what capitalism asks them to do and they're doing it better so from the perspective of capital we are the dysfunctional ones they are the are the pure subject from capitalize so it's yeah it's so it's so fucking soulless and such a weird fucked up way dude but I like competition TV shows I'm a slut for competition TV shows I just I just finished with Mark watching the British celebrities hoarder not traitors fucking traitors yeah such a good show dude and it's so good it's fascinating like the yeah it's so good the the premise like I was like okay so they lie to each other and there's weird social dynamics and like the premise is what really got me I was like okay this is gonna be really fucking fascinating and then I just I fell in love with Alan coming I mean who doesn't love Alan coming like yeah yeah and you saw that one then no the new one the new the celebrity one the celebrity British one is he in that yeah oh I didn't wait no no Alan coming shit no I'm mixing people up who am I thinking of hold on who are you thinking of who else could you get views of all come Tim Curry no it's just the name it's not the person at all it's just the name I'm mixing up there's nothing to do with Alan coming I love Alan coming though he's great and he's a completely different host yeah it's a completely different host her name she's also fucking badass what's her name Gretchen it's not Gretchen oh it's it's Alan's it's Alan Carr he's in the British one that I was mixing up the Alan yeah anyway I think traders is it's got it's one of my favorite fucking TV shows it's got it's up there with X files and Star Trek like really like it's just so fascinating it's so entertaining yeah it's really good it really is yeah but we're talking about we'll we'll do we want to keep talking about Avatar we're what's wandered from Avatar yeah so you you like you like Avatar I think I think I like Avatar I like I like so the first one is just dances with blue people like if there's nothing original about that script it's just like we're gonna set up the world it's for and go and that's all it is but the I've never seen for and golly I don't even know what sound even know what turn goalie is dude oh my god dude okay at some point you have to watch for and golly yeah because it's a cartoon but but anyway the fact that we can have all these different things where we're like this is what it is like it's it's a totally unoriginal like premise the first one but the second one I thought was like it win a significant way to like developing it and make it's still the same premise but it's like they made it interesting I was I thought the second one was like a good movie well and the second one what's what's interesting to me is in the second one there were like I don't know people dot-com articles and shit of like oh millennial women are so depressed they want their suicidal because they saw Avatar part two and they have to leave the theater and go back to real world and like that to me so it definitely had like a large impact like on release but yeah yeah I remember that it doesn't really seem to have any lasting I don't like I've seen I've seen both Avatar moves I haven't seen the third one I'll see it eventually but I couldn't tell you any of the story beats I don't the Sigourney Weavers in it the the that one guy's in it like I I just I know the second one all of them or both of them like the mate like the guy the wheelchair guy like he's he's famous he's in other stuff you I just thought the whales were like really compelling characters to me like that was the only thing that I really think was like I enjoyed the whales as characters you know and then I think the the humanoid characters are like totally forgettable but to me the whales are like they're interesting characters it's like that is what we're doing to nature we're like pillaging nature just to get a little piece out of it like to mine this little thing and we're completely just laying waste to the whole body of nature you know so I like the whales to me they were like really fascinating and I like their they're like prohibition this gets into it actually their prohibition on violence meant that they weren't going to survive and it took one breaking with the principle you know to be like no we actually need to survive and like this is the exception to the rule and and that was his ethical call was actually to break with the with the collective principle so that's what I remember I remember the whales I think they're really interesting and compelling but it just it's it's weird I remember being almost like bemused watching the the Avatar movies and kind of thinking like okay this is predictable this is a little bit corny and cheesy and you can you know you can see it all coming from my all the way but also done really well like it's you know the parts that are actual like film it's filmed well all the CGI's done well like all the post like they're made really well but it's just like I don't know like I would rather watch a shitty like I just watched page master the other day shitty like 1993 movie with McCullough Colken where he turns into a cartoon and it's it's a stupid movie it sucks ass it's not very good but I would prefer to watch that then then to watch like like I have no emotional connection to the Avatar movies. - Dude, and I'm telling you, I think that the writing for the humanoid characters is kind of not very complex, it's kind of boring, and I think the hyper reality of everything. That's why the whales to me are the interesting characters because they're different enough that they're just charismatic megafauna. They're not like, we don't have to associate with them like we would people. We don't need any visual cues to relate with them. We're just working on emotional cues, and that's why they're more relatable. 'Cause the hyper real humanoid characters are just like, they're just too real, and they're also, I don't think that they're written as well as the fucking whales are. Add to it too. So they're not as complex as I think the whales are. The whale, that's the most complex character, the most tension is there in the fucking whales. You know? I think tension, I think those movies are very much the good guys are going to win, and so the stakes are very low. I think that's probably another element of it too, that kind of like assembly line. Like let's just pump out the story. The good guys are gonna win. You're never in fear for the good guys. The good guys never feel like they're in real peril. Whereas with those whales, they are kind of imperiled. They don't know exactly what's gonna happen with them. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, I don't know, man. The Avatar movies, they're big. They're spend a lot of money on them. And they don't, I don't even think they bomb. Like I think they do well in the box office. - They do well. - Yeah. - They just seem so horrible. - They just, right. - Yeah. - That's the only thing I have is that I think that the only thing that makes them interesting is, that's the only thing that, I think that's the reason why the second one I actually liked it is 'cause it had these characters that actually they might not survive. And they're actually interesting and they're actually complex. Because the whole dynamic of like, we've prohibited, they've socially prohibited any violence. And then the one character has to break with them and gets exiled. Like that's the most seriously, it's the most interesting storyline of, it's actually the interesting storyline. - Yeah. - That makes me wanna talk about Star Wars. But I also kinda don't wanna get into it 'cause I feel like all the discourse around Star Wars is just fucking annoying. Like the people who talk about Star Wars annoying me. 'Cause they all, they're all like, oh, Star Wars went woke and then now they went broke. And I just don't really give a shit. I don't think I has anything to do with being woke. I think I has everything to do with the fact that Disney is just trying to crank out, do the assembly line method of like cranking out properties, properties, properties, and people got fatigued. And the writing was just shit. Like I think the writing in the new Star Wars movies was shit. And the fact that there's so many different Star Wars TV shows that you can't, you don't know what the fuck is happening. If you watch any single one of them, you're like, "Well shit, I have to catch up on all this other lore." And then yeah, that's not a good way to market media properties nowadays. Like, that's what's dropped me out of it. I haven't kept up with any of it 'cause I feel like I have to watch either. I can't just watch a movie. I have to watch like 15 different TV shows and movies. - Yeah. - I've been seeing the newest Star Wars movie and I heard it was awful. But I have not seen it. - The rise of Skywalker. - Or no, no, no, no, no. I've seen all the Star Wars movies in theater. And I probably will continue to go see every Star Wars movie in the theater just 'cause I'm like, that shit's burned into my brain, dude. That's like how people are like, I'm a cultural Christian. Like, yeah, I'm a cultural Star Wars fucking fan, dude. But yeah, the show's got too much, but I don't think it had anything to do with woke. And like, that's what pisses me off about all the discourse surrounding Star Wars. Is that, and. - Is that what everyone's saying? - Yeah, like Star Wars and Marvel, everybody's like, oh, they went woke and that's what killed them. And it's like, no, it's not. It wasn't them going, woke. It was the fact that they were cranking out something new every 20 minutes. And you had to keep up with so much shit. And people just got fatigued, people got tired. And the quality dropped off too. Like they're, like they. Instead of letting an artist or a small group of artists actually say something and express themselves artistically, they were like, wow, let's just fucking put this into chat GPT and have him write a fucking Marvel script and shit this out and have him write a Star Wars script and shit this out. So the quality fell off. - Too many cooks and one of them is strategy BT. - Yeah. But it is weird 'cause it does feel like, I don't know, media, properties, cultural artifacts, just none of them have the same power that they used to have. And I feel like properties such as Star Wars or Marvel or Transformers or Ninja Turtles or anything. I feel like the thing that gets people animated now is influencers and celebrities and not stories and not actually works of art, but actually. - Well, you don't wanna lose yourself in a story. Like you wanna find yourself reflected back to yourself every moment of every fucking day. - Yeah. - Right, you don't wanna be swept up in something to where you forget about your own fucking personal profile and self-image for five seconds. - Yeah. - Is that like. I don't know. I feel like a lot of people are very critical of pop culture, but they're critical from a reactionary position. And they ultimately, like all their criticism ultimately comes down to, woke, woke, woke, woke, woke, woke. I feel like if you just look at it, like the answer is never woke. Like the answer is always this. It's always this kind of like economic operation going on. Psychological operation is going on. Our libidinal fucking economy, like how the commodity is manipulating us. Like the answer is always ultimately capital, not woke, but capital does woke better than anybody else. - Yeah. So it outwokes woke, and then sells it back to you. Sorry, I actually have to go. I did not realize what time it was. - Fuck. - So it's already force over here. So you have the same time as me right now, don't you? - Nope. - Fuck Arizona, we don't change. Everyone else does. - That's what it is. So what time is it there? It's fucking three. - Five. - Oh, it's five. - Yeah. Totally confused. But anyway, I should probably go. - All right, dude. - But yeah, this was fun. And looking forward to doing this again with Mikey too. - Fuck yeah. - Yeah. - I'm gonna stop recording, "Peace Out Internet." - Yeah. Bye internet. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)