Peter Ruggerio - HOK

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Hello listeners, and welcome to Designed, a podcast by Architectural Record. We appreciate you listening, and once finished, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, rate us, and leave a comment. If you'd like to learn more about design and see all the other great content that Architectural Record has to offer, please visit ArchitecturalRecord.com for more information. Enjoy the show and have a wonderful day. Hello, all you beautiful people, welcome back to another episode of Designed by Architectural Record. I am your host, Aaron Friends, and boy, oh boy, do we have an episode for you? Why did it take us seven years to get to H.O.K.? I don't know, but we'll get into that in just a second. But first, order your subscription now to Architectural Record. Go to ArchitecturalRecord.com, whether you're a single person or an entire firm, there's a subscription option for you, and it's a physical thing delivered right to your door, the best architecture publication for less than a cup of coffee per month. Go check it out. Go do it now. And follow the podcast on Instagram at design.podcast for all the interviews. We have coming up because 2025, we're going for it, and we have some interviews that you don't want to miss. So go check it out. As I mentioned, this week's episode, we have Peter Regiro of H.O.K., and we're talking airport design aviation. If you've ever wondered what it takes to design an airport or to have an addition to maybe an iconic airport, we get into all of that. So I don't want to delay it too much, but sit back, relax, enjoy, here we go with Peter Regiro. Aviation design is one thing that everyone experiences, but when you experience it, it is probably one of the most stressful things I feel like you can do, right, is go through an airport. The whole process, you know, am I going to be there in time, you got to get out the house, you got to get the kids back, and then you get there, and then there's, oh, the security line is so long. How long is this going to take? Definitely. Oh, and my flight is delayed. So it's a very stressful sort of environment, so I just want to start sort of big picture if you can walk us through, and there's sort of airports that people avoid, like I'm not flying to this city because that airport is bad. So when you're approached to aviation design, what are some things just right off the bat that you kind of look at and say like, okay, this is how it currently is, but we sort of need to reimagine how this could be. You know, it's very funny, it's really good that we start off on this subject, exactly this subject, because it speaks to a couple of principles that guide us in our work regarding transportation projects. We look for, from the passenger's point of view, we look for the idea of transparency, and that doesn't, you know, not this literal idea of class or, but spaces, what we really mean are spatial transparencies, bases that really flow one to another, which enables the passenger to always be able to see ahead in the next step in their process. And the only place in a contemporary airport terminal where you should have a situation, a condition where you can't see ahead is that security, and that's just by the very nature of programming, of how security works. But once you're through security and you've gotten yourself that put back together and you kind of, you know, you make sure you have your phone and your wallet and your shoes are tied, the next thing you're looking for is, okay, where do I go next? And what we always like to do is really have that ability to see two or three steps ahead in the process. And you can just think of all the airports that exist today, especially one of the vintage that would build pre-security and have to have security retrofitted into them. Or just, you know, pre a lot of things, you know, security kind of hub and spoke deregulation. All these things have changed the characteristics and the face of air travel. They've created a whole series of walls in all of these buildings, which really prevent you from seeing ahead and understanding where you're going. And you know, that, that inability to see ahead, that inability to kind of know what's next, it contributes to that already high anxiety level. Yeah. And I think, you know, these projects I've worked on hospitals, I've never worked on an airport, but I've worked on hospitals and I think it's a very similar sort of red tape program where there's just a lot of hoops have to be jumped through. So before we dive into a specific project, King, and these are also incredibly long projects I would imagine, right? Like the team that starts the project is not going to be the team that inevitably finishes it. But the onboard people throughout the project, that's exactly. And you take our audience through what are those like initial conversations and what are sort of the goals that you sort of stereotypically see with an airport project when the first time you meet with a client? And this goes, you know, this kind of builds on the previous question, this idea of transparency, transparency is one of these principles, these kind of guiding principles that we try to address, that we want to address in designing these buildings. So when we meet with clients, we want to talk to them about flexibility. If there's a constant in the airline industry, or even in transportation for that matter, if there's a constant, it is change. And just think of, you know, and again, kind of referring back to the airports that many of us use, which were built in the late '56, '60s and '70s, pre a lot of conditions, and they were built for also a different era in which, you know, air travel was a kind of a first-class business class elite exercise. And now it's, you know, it's so readily available to such a large portion of the population. So you have to design for flexibility and you have to design for expandability. And then you want to design for this, we talked about this idea of transparency. We also want to design for fluidity. And by that kind of again related to transparency, this idea that you can easily move through these buildings, that they're sized appropriately. And I think nothing, one of the worst things that besides, series of walls are not being able to see ahead in a lot of the, you know, this old generation, therefore, is that they were sized for that different population and that different use. They were sized around 707s, you know, and DC-9s or something. But air planes were like 125, 150 people tops, and all of a sudden, in 1969, the 747 rolled out, and now there were 400 people getting on a plane at a gate that was previously designed for 150. So there is the luxury of space and, you know, we joke about the, you know, the luxury of space, well, it's the necessity of space in these projects. And then, you know, the other thing, these are very, very big buildings. And so because they're very big buildings, there's a civic component about them, you know, like the old train station, which was, you know, in the heart of a downtown or a heart of a, heart of a city, you know, was this edifice dedicated to transportation mobility, but also a kind of representing, you know, representing a greater number of people. So it had a civic presence. How do we interpret that civic presence in contemporary or poor terminal? And how do we interpret it on the sun eye or a nod, if you will, to kind of the regions or the city that it serves? And then finally, again, because these are really big buildings, how do they speak to the, the environment, you know, they're big 24/7 facilities. And can we learn how to use them differently at nighttime than we do during the day, you know, there's really no need to have all the lights blasting at them, waiting for that 11 p.m. flight. And also, you know, tied to that idea, you know, tied to energy efficiency, also tied to wellness, people circadian rhythms. And as I said, it's kind of just a, you know, a sense of environmental stewardship. And you've been, you've worked on a number of these projects and award winning projects with already a Chicago over here, the, the terminal five expansion, some really, really big projects. I've been to one in particular here in a second, but first, and I hate to use a quote off your website, but I'm going to do it because it's not even a quote, but it's more of the sort of a design philosophy that you've talked about, about the perceived notion of what looks good versus solving sort of challenges or unique challenges to each project. So before we dive in to Dallas, if we can just talk about these sort of design theories as design philosophy you have, we're going to talk about approaching these projects. You know, I think it really comes from, we pry ourselves on not approaching any project, any building typology with a preconceived idea. This, you know, they were, they were kind of certain, I think, all building typologies lend themselves to kind of a known set of parameters, a known set of plan diagrams, functional diagrams, which, you know, perhaps are given, perhaps are an opportunity given the circumstances To. To the. To the. To the. To the. To the. look at them with a fresh eye, but I think that critical sense of looking at something with a fresh eye, with an open sensibility really leads us to, we believe, a much better building, a much better result, and also a greater value for our clients. And to dive in here to Dallas, it's a 2.8 million square foot expansion, which is, I didn't realize this is that big, but that sounds right. I don't even know what 2.8 million square feet looks like, but if you haven't flown into Dallas, it's, I would say we've done this like on other podcasts where there's this very famous building that you have to do in addition to, or you have to do a renovation too. And like, I would think pressure, because it is one of the most famous ones, erosary and in building. And it's just an iconic sort of look. When you think, you know, you see that picture, the airport, that's the airport you're seeing. And now what's happened is they built sort of a series of terminals behind it, right? Take what is somewhat like a military bus that you're being packed into the back of and then they drive is truck around and you get into it. So all that to say, I would feel like this is a lot of pressure for me. So can you take us through from the inception of this project? Just take us through it. Come on. Sure. This is levels. Let us have it. Let us have it. Okay. That's great. I love talking about Dallas, because my history working at Dallas Airport goes back to those back 30 some odd years, 30 plus years, when it was a young architect with a previous firm. And it's been interesting. You mentioned your health care experience through your hospitals. Well, that was where I was working on it. And they said we got this. We're going after this project at Dallas Airport. And even though you've never worked on a airport before, you've worked on complicated buildings hospitals. So an airport is a complicated program. So it's you know, you've got the right sensibility. So yeah, kind of solving complex problem. So you know, the first project we did at Dallas back in beginning in 1989, 1990, I guess was the expansion of the original terminal that Sarenin designed. And Sarenin actually designed the project in the late 50s. It was finished in 1962, I believe. But at this time, they only needed 50% of the building. That was the demand. So they only built 600 feet of it. And then in the late 80s, early 90s, they recognized the need for it to be to complete the master plan. So we designed. So we worked on the, you know, basically executing completing Sarenin's vision for this building. And it was a great learning experience because as a young architect, you know, leading a design team, it was, it was a unique experience because it was basically I used to joke about holding say answers and trying to try and talk to Sarenin. What, you know, what was Sarenin thinking so that I could really get into the understanding of project and great learning experience that everybody said, well, there's not a lot of design there because you're just executing what was what was designed back in 1960. True, but since 1962, when the building opened, you know, 747 deregulation, all these things came along. So we really had to adopt Sarenin's building and the additions, which matched the original to this new program, to this ever evolving new program. And so it was a fascinating opportunity to really just learn airports and learn airports under the kind of umbrella of this master, you know, and a building which ultimately was like, you know, I think recognizes one of the most at the millennium in all these kind of surveys taken at the millennium, you know, recognizes perhaps one of the most important American civic buildings of the 20th century. It really allowed me to start to really understand, have a great appreciation of Sarenin as an architect, his work, but also to understand how these buildings operate and function and how they need to adapt. And so great thing about Sarenin's building was there was a total concept for the jet age. It was really builders, the first airport built for the jet age. And so it wanted to address Sarenin one to address that whole idea of how you go from the car to the plane. And the novel idea, which is actually just kind of brilliant in a way, it's just suffered from in 1962, they weren't ready for it. You know, don't bring the plane to the building, but leave the building, leave the airplanes out on the aprons, you know, on this kind of vast apron and take a part of the building and make it mobile and have that go to the plane. And that those are the, the quote, mobile, mobile lounges. The problem, you know, with the mobile lounge back in 1962 is, and it was designed by Charles Ames. This airport has everybody in it. It's just for exactly, and Dan Carly, Dan Carly was the landscape architect. So, but the problem with the mobile lounge is that, you know, again, when 747 came along, it was, it was, you know, 747's a lot taller than 707. So the thing is designed for 707. So it's here, 747's up there. That's, so that, it doesn't work. And it's gotten, now you have to take four of these things to load a 747. Yeah, assume you could get it to the high. So the idea was kind of doomed from, you know, within a short, within, with less than a decade. But, and then they subsequently have used them to actually, to, you know, they, they start building these additional concourses out in the apron and the planes ended up talking at aprons. And they use the mobile lounges in addition to a people mover system, below grade people mover system. But they use the mobile lounges as basically one of the one of the shuttle routes, if you will, you know, just connecting the main terminal to the concourses. Was there ever the notion of like this building is pretty awesome? Let's just keep expanding it down and down and down and down. Or like, let's create another one behind it, like, taking the same designer, what drove sort of just a new remodel of it. There was in the master plan that was updated. Siren is up master plan was updated by SOM in the late 80s to build a series of, to regularize the midfield concourses. And then to build another terminal, not necessarily replicating siren in, but another main terminal at the southern end of the airport. And then connected all with a below grade people mover system. So a lot of that master plan was put in place. I'm not sure what second terminal will ever be built. But in fact, the project we're doing, which is at the very southern end, newly southern end of the of the of the apron area, is in fact a second terminal because it's dedicated to international connecting flights. So a passenger flying into Dallas would, who is either flying internationally, who's either flying in as a passenger who's, you know, destination. Dallas is their final stop. Would get off a plane, come to a common area and then be directed to the main terminal where there's international rivals or in the new building. And this is all taking place in the new building. In addition, in the new building, there is a separate international rivals function for that international passenger, who is then say connecting to Kansas City or to LA. And, you know, and is will never leave that terminal. But inside that terminal, they'll have all the expectation of a regular main terminal building. The only difference is there will be no nobody's driving up to this building to the park from it. Everybody's kind of departing from it because they've come in on a connecting flight. One of the interesting things about the program is, you know, airports tend to be really, really flat and big and two stories tall, you know, two main stories departures and arrivals. And there's, there's, you know, baggage levels and, you know, mechanical levels in between, but basically in terms of passengers, you know, the parting passengers arriving passengers. One of the, if you look at Siren's original building, one of my old mentor that's Kidmore, a who recently passed away, David Childs, who I think about to let's disease taught me every day. He always said that Siren's terminal had one fatal flaw, which is in this great arc of the, of the roof. There's the golf, there's this great roof train. The practical move, it's the, you know, exactly the practical move to poetic. That wasn't in the model. I bet it wasn't in the model. That's right. Of course, when we expanded it, we had to put two more of them in place. But the interest is, but he, he always said that was the fatal flaw in this this great, you know, curved ceiling with this stick in the middle of it holding up, you know, I've appeared, not holding it up with the appearance of like what's that doing. And, and I, as I got to know the building more and more, and I've got to work on other airports over the years. I came to realize looking back at Siren and spelled the great, the fatal flaw, quality of the arriving passenger, the architectural quality for the arriving passenger. Sure, they come back to the main terminal in the mobile lounge. They exit the little, the little buggy. They come into the marine terminal for, the main terminal for all of about 100, so steps and then take an escalator down to arrivals and arrivals is in a, you know, ceiling height of about nine feet. It's like, welcome to the, welcome to the nation's capital. You are in the basement. And it really left that that has grown to leave a real impression on me in these buildings. So how do we celebrate, you know, so many architects over these generations by self-included have done these airport terminals with it, like a signature like Delus with a signature signal architectural move which is some kind of highly profiled roof silhouette but the arrivals so it celebrates departing right but the arriving passengers on the lower level and sometimes you can find some floor area or some ceiling height where you can achieve higher ceilings but it's usually you feel like you're always being pushed into the basement and I know on our work on La Guardia we really want to try and celebrate that sense of arriving at New York and so at Dallas by you know just much more light being available into that into the arrivals level and opening up the floor above to really the the manage the presence of a big heavy ceiling so at Dallas on the arriving passenger so you know this is you're welcome to the United States moment you're welcome to Washington moment the idea that the passengers you know on the dedicated arrivals circulation separate from all the other circulation because you haven't cleared customs yet when you finally get to that point the idea is that we really want to create a special sequence that takes you to immigration and that immigration and then kind of getting your bag and rechecking your bag to get on your connecting flight is much more but less of a process and much more by kind of emotional experience you know it's it's we're planning on we're designing a large volume very tall space out where baggage claim is so it's no longer we have the opportunity not to put on the basement but to put on the highest floor of the new of the new facility the under skylights with with views out to the Virginia countryside in a distance and views back to sarenans building so it's a it's a sense of orientation that's the talk that sense we talked about of transparency that kind of the sense the fluid sense of movement all embodied in the project and that kind of heroic sense of a civic building a building that really you know is about welcoming you to the nation's capital welcoming you to the United States now if we can I have a quick question about just travel it's in general right it's that so these sort of spaces once you pass security they're almost like caricatures of the city they have like all the little shops that you'd find in downtown wherever you are but then when it comes to the materiality and I'm sure it's because there's so many people touching them they have to be sort of resilient surfaces but we're incredibly hard and to me it's sort of evokes like this is what the future is going to be like sort of putting out there you know what I mean we had Tom main on here and he gave his review of the Tesla design I feel very similar about like the Rivian headlights like why are they oval it's just like you got to make it different make it oval so you can't be round and so when it comes to these sort of like futuristic building but we've talked about how common air travelers become can you just explain what is the process behind the material selection when it comes to an airport durability yeah sorry that's what I didn't mean for the dear rant but I feel like now we live in like a boutique culture right we live in boutique and everything wants to be small batch but it's still very large batch well you know it's maintenance and durability and so that's you know the functionality that's you know and of course economy but I take it to another level which is let's let's talk about some of these materials and what they say about us and one of the things that in our studio that we really try and practice is what we call material authenticity and integrity and it's very difficult it's very difficult to use wood in in high traffic places or in healthcare because of germs and in ability to kind of clean it properly and things so the if I can't use wood then we don't use wood you know because to me it says a lot about a society that tries to use the porcelain tile to look like wood so we we really are concerned about the appropriateness materials and the sense of integrity and and material honesty so we try and use in natural materials where we can you know as as accents and as areas where perhaps a you know that not going to come in contact with a lot of abuse and damage you know we like we like stone we like to roto we're kind of cautious about metals these days because you know they takes it takes all the you know the the environment takes a beating when you make aluminum and so we want you know we try and re scale back on on that we're doing a lot of things with actually with fiberglass reinforced strips some which is a fantastic material that we put to great use at both at LaGuardia and and at terminal five so sorry I just had to ask because this is like I walk through every important I'm like why is it why is it feels like can we talk a little bit about adaptability of these spaces you know I think the biggest change and this is also going to another point of the security experience this is something that's I think everyone the main focal point when they go to an airport but the biggest change I've seen was 9/11 with what you have to do before and after and now I feel like security has lightened a little bit or the technology has gotten better to where it feels appears lighter so in terms of adaptability of these spaces I've heard you talk in other interviews about how you're designing offices that can down the road be ripped out and maybe that's an expansion of something so when you're designing them what is the five 10 15 20 year plan of these spaces it's interesting because that's usually the planning window never never five years because you get to five years by the time the buildings opened you're already at that window so it's you know so it's usually it's usually it just seems and it's not written down and it hardened true but it seems to me that it's always like in 10 to 15 year bites you know it's it's it's funny you ask because the park is for example check in and check in used to be one of the big event spaces you know we're finding that and even we faces a little on the guardia how big does check in really need to be because you know this this little thing has radically altered how we fly and if you're kind of a savvy traveler a savvy business traveler or even if you're not if you're just like a savvy tech person you know you've you've print if you you're here your boarding pass is here if you if you are checking a bag it's here and you you know you you printed your bag tag at home and you put it on your bag and all you have to do is find find the appropriate place at the airport to drop your bag off so so check in unless you're traveling with a pet or you know you're checking in a lot of suit you're actually checking a lot of suitcases or you know a lot of people you're it's become a much more fluid exercise as opposed to kind of you know 10 years ago it was transactional you actually stop you waited online you you you met you had an interaction with an airline employee and you know they took your bag and you walked away with a boarding pass so and now you know it's quite possible you don't even encounter an airline employee until you're at the boarding gate do you feel like that this for example this is a silly analogy but like you go to Disneyland and you wait in one line and then you go to another room and then you go into the other line and the perceived a perception of moving through has there just increased the security line because now you used to have to wait in this line and then security was very short because you're only feeding 10 people at a time right yeah now you're feeding everybody all at once to one area so what has been the impact on that well I think you know the whole idea of crowd management you know and then kind of managing cues you know I always stroke that Disney the great thing about sanny online at Disney is Disney never lets you see around the corner you know so you never realize how long we're at the end and you get to that corner and you're like holy crap it's another I know it is so you know at the airports I think it's really just a question of kind of managing managing the cues and and honestly unless there's a delay or the systems are down or something you really see big lines for checking in any more unless it's you know day before spring break or day before Thanksgiving you know that sort of thing we always joke about you don't design the airport for those days you know you don't you survive those days and it's yeah if I'm straight yeah yeah you know we always joke that you know you don't design you don't design houses of worship for the day before the for the high holy days when when everybody shows up and the same thing is true with airports so so it's a question of you know just managing the circulation managing the cues and a lot of it just has to do with often does the staffing levels meet the planning levels we plan for and design and implement all of those positions are the various agencies or airlines able to staff them appropriately we've talked about you know a number of airports that you worked on the Guardia you've mentioned a couple times what are some things that you've learned from past projects that going forward you're like this is going into the next project this is a must this is a must I think one of them is on the Guardia we worked with a very good client vantage airport group who developed the airport and and operated today operate terminal be at the Guardia their approach to designing restrooms was really really interesting you know in terms of they they often cite that there was a, I believe a, I don't know, maybe it was Kanye Ness traveler, a survey that said the top, the number one, the space in an airport that had the greatest impact on passengers was the restroom, in terms of, you know, a favorable or less than favorable experience. And so, you know, we've learned to really size them appropriately. And even just the opening, the doorways, the kind of the hallway that leads to it, you know, when you're in an airport, you know, when you're in any of the building type, you're this big. When you're in airport, you have a truck, you have a carry-on bag, you have a backpack or something, or a stroller or something, suddenly you're this big. And you want to be able to go into the restroom, for example, or if that matter any place in the airport, where it's comfortable to pass somebody. And so, you know, this is joking earlier about the kind of just this idea of the, you know, the necessity of space. So, incorporating that idea of the necessity of space, which is this general, this generosity of space, which makes the thing work and contributes to a positive feeling. The idea of taking vanities is the sink, and kind of just trying to personalize it, so it's your sink. You know, you're not at a big long trough. Yeah. And somebody else's soap is running past you on its way to the drain. You know, and even just things like maintenance, they have a great, a great model that we can cooperate and I've learned from, which is to try and create two ways in and out, so that that way when the bathroom, when a restroom is being maintained, you don't have, you can shut down 50% of it and still have the other half operate as opposed to taking the entire thing out of operation and telling somebody, you know, putting up a little sign that the next restroom is four gates away. So, so there's that on a very, very practical level, but also, as I said, a level that contributes to this kind of, you know, memorable experience, positive, memorable experience. The other thing is how, you know, these things constantly evolving. One of the great things that we are looking at a lot now is how retail is evolving and how we can incorporate pop-ups in terms of retail. Can we create a retail kiosk that are much more like you would find, like pavilions would find at a convention, at the car show or at the boat show or something that, you know, these little instant buildings to sell, to sell, you know, Mercedes-Benz or cars or whatever. And that, you know, these things don't necessarily need to be made with traditional construction, architectural construction techniques of studs and drywall and ceiling tiles and things. There's a need, there will always be that kind of need for some of that, where like food service and restaurants and, you know, need kitchens and things. But dry goods that were just food and beverage, can they live in a much more open environment in kind of kiosk like structures? And try and turn the retail, get away from the model of a street with, you know, walking through something with retail on either side to the urban space, the farmer's market on Saturday morning, where you're kind of going from kind of wandering through kiosk. And, but again, appropriately sized, appropriately designed and laid out so that the view corridors are not interrupted, that at any point I can see yeah, so I'm going to wander through the farmer's market, but I can see gate 17, you know, two blocks ahead, two three gates ahead. On that note, I mean, we talked about, you know, what you're going to incorporate going forward. Aside from, you know, a $7 bag of gummy bears or a $6 coke, what would you change about airports? Like, what's something you go into an airport and you're like, this is, this needs to stop happening. Cause, you know, you all, you would never happen in an age of kid. Yeah. But, but of course, you know, you're not the only ones that the vineyard is. I think there's just the clutter, you know, I think there's just this so much clutter, a visual clutter, visual noise in airports, I even, you know, even traveled through some airports in which I think the, you know, the, the architecture is part of the part of the problem. And too many surfaces, too much articulation, too much, too much visual noise. And then you start adding, you know, signage, you start adding all the brackets and, and the post necessary, the hardware and necessary to put the signage in place. Throw in all these necessary architectural elements that, you know, are either code or convenience required, you know, fire host, fire host cabinets, fire extinguishers. The things in it that tell you that, you know, that an alarm is going off, you know, the non-seaters and things, lighting, mechanical systems, advertisements. There is so much visual noise in these great public rooms. And so how do we, how do we kind of organize it architecturally? And how do we organize it so you can, it's, you know, you, you start to, you know, it's there, you know, we're to look for it, but it's not in the way. So it's, you know, it's, it's the whole thing about, you know, you know, good service is, good service is present, but kind of invisible. So, so these things serve, they support your experience, they support the building, the functionality of the building. But let's try and put them, let's try and design them so that they serve their role, but their role doesn't get in the way of the experience. And in fact, maybe how we design them, how we quote, how we kind of design package them, may contribute to kind of the overall visual, pleasing visual experience. What's your proudest moment in architecture? Hmm. In my career, I'm torn between some of the work I've done in airports because one of the things I really am proud about the work in airports is they have been, they impact, you know, a lot of people use them. So, and they, they are part of that, you know, I mentioned about that, that kind of signature of a city, you know, a civic building in the city. And then the other one that was very fortunate to participate, sadly, unfortunate tragic events that led to it, but it was, it was an honor to be part of the rebuilding of Lower Manhattan. I was part of the design team for seven World Trade Center. And to this day, it's for me, a very important project that it was part of because it really is, you know, how do we honor, I was a part of honoring tragic events, but at the same time, a beacon for hope and renewal. I was not expecting that. So, agrees. Well, I did that. Well, I did that. Let's quip out. I mean, another high-pressure, you know, we've talked about World Trade Center rebuilding like you, you got to get it right. Knowing what you know now, you've obviously, we've talked, you've had a wonderful career. What advice would you have for, you know, young Peter sitting at his drafting table, back in school, knowing what you know now, what advice would you have? I'll keep your mind open. Your curiosity is one of your greatest assets. I think if you can combine intellect with talent and then really avail it to, how loud your curiosity to help drive that. Drive what you do. Ask why all the time. Why has it done this way? Not to be, you know, not to be of streperist, but to learn. You know, I think, you know, we deal in so many building types that, you know, this is the way you, this is the way you lay out X. This is how it's, you know, and it's like, well, okay, but is there a better way that we haven't thought about it? And things are so evolving. You know, it's interesting not to, you mentioned a little earlier about Tesla. It's really interested, first time I got in a, a Tesla a number of years ago. The person who owned the car was telling me they were so proud that they bought this car and it's so excited about it. And as all of that, owners are. But it was interesting because I didn't really think about it. It said that, you know, from their point of view, here was an opportunity to rethink the car. You know, the whole driver interface. You know, so starting, you know, okay, the propulsion system is big, one of the biggest single components on the car. And here so, you know, it's like, okay, when the internal, the internal combustion engine, it's a new way of making the car go. And as a result, let's take this as an opportunity to rethink everything. To rethink the interface with the, with the instrument panel. To, you know, rethink the interface with the, you know, the thing that the little button that opens the door as opposed to pulling on a latch or something. And, you know, I think all the car manufacturers have taken, have taken the electric car and essentially just, you know, substituted on electric motor for, you know, for the internal combustion engine. And everything else is the same. Well, I think it's also a, but I think it's also a difference of product design and companies laying out, again, we talked about the five, ten-year plan. Like a building, it's done and you're starting with a brand new project, right? But a car going to a seven-inch screen between the seats to a 12-inch screen. Of course, they can make it a 12-inch right now. But why do that when you get up at a half-inch every year? And that's the new thing. You know what I mean? You don't have to, you know what I mean? The whole car can be made out of a screen. But the point is, like, they're planning for their model after the model that's been released. Oh, accelerating you don't have to do that, right? And so when you have a new company come in, they, they can just show you and force that change amongst people, I don't know. Talk a lot about your buildings you've designed and the success you've had and HOK, but what's next? - What's next, you know, it's interesting. - This comes up frequently. I've always been fascinated, and I guess one of the things that I touch a lot of different building types in my role, but I do have a lot of airports on my resume. And one of the things I like about them is, as I mentioned earlier, they're major public spaces in the civic realm. You know, I have my undergrad. I have someone architect and also I have an urban design degree, and I've always lived in cities. I've always been fascinated by how cities work, and I've also always been fascinated by infrastructure. And it really, it pains me to see how infrastructure has kind of evolved into, let's design it with the kind of the lowest common denominator of functionality and cost. And they have such a, and yet it has such a major impact on the American landscape and the American cities, for that many global landscape, global cities. And so I would, what's next is, I'm trying to focus, I'm also trying on both transportation, I'm trying to focus on trains. You know, how do we, how do we create? Higher speed trains in the US, maybe someday high speed, and how do we, how do we rebuild our infrastructure, but rebuild it in a way that is not only functionally significant, functionally important, but represents our values. And like our architecture embodies the spirit of the times, the spirit of society. And the example I always cite is, you know, the three lower Manhattan, lower east river crossings to Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Williamsburg Bridge, Brooklyn Bridge was first, and it was, you know, a great celebration of, not only, you know, technical and engineering accomplishment, but for its time, it was actually designed, it's still to this day, it's incredibly aesthetically pleasing. The next one was the Williamsburg Bridge, which apparently the Al Cry was, you know, they built a, they built an erector set in my backyard. And so the final one, you know, 10 years later, so the Manhattan Bridge was built. And if you look close to the Manhattan Bridge, there's a lot of architectural embellishments, kind of the towers of handsomely tapered, there were finials at the top of the towers, and on the Manhattan side there's that great, kind of ceremonial arcade at the end of Canal Street. Those, there was an architectural designer, a consulting architect on the Manhattan Bridge, it was Carrera and Hastings. And even the, on the Golden Gate, for example, there was a local architect from San Francisco, by the name of Irving Mauro. He was the one who was responsible for its international orange color and for all of its art deco embellishments and kind of flourishes that really contribute to the handsomeness of both of these pieces of these great bridges. So I think this is great. And you know, during this WPA, you know, following the depression, government, you know, put out of work architects, an artist to work designing infrastructure. You see it on elements of the Grand Central Parkway, you know, you see it on the Great Parkways out of Long Island. So I think this, what's next is I really would love to try and kind of get a conversation going about designing infrastructure. Awesome. Well, Peter, Gerald, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me. I really enjoyed it. I think you're audience will too, so enjoy it. Okay. Thanks. (gentle music) Thank you for listening to an episode of Designed, a podcast by Architectural Record. If you enjoyed this episode, we would appreciate you taking a moment to subscribe to the podcast. Give us a rating and leave us a comment. Have a wonderful day. (gentle music)