Persuading Through Listening

(upbeat music) Hello everybody, my name is Jason Inber and I'm gonna be hosting this conversation with Keith. Keith is a legend trial attorney. He's done a series of podcasts. He has a book, better check it out and buy it, deeper cuts. Keith has done more trials than I've ever heard anybody do. He has a career in the courtroom and he's got beautiful wisdom to share with us. And today we're going to hear some life and law lessons from Keith. What are we gonna talk about today? And then let's jump right in. All right, this is one that excites me because it's got such importance in my mind, such importance, not just the lawyers, not just the advocacy, but to how we get along with one another and kind of mending fences and understanding each other better. I learned it in the courtroom, I designed it for the courtroom and then I learned, you know what, you just designed something that's helping you in life and I'd like to share it. So with that, let me get into it. And what it really has to do with is, if you're in a situation where you have someone who has a different point of view than you and you want to persuade them, you want them to convince them to see it your way. At the very least, you want them to hear you in a really, in understand where you're coming from, at least and maybe you change your mind. That's the ultimate goal. But they're coming at it from a completely different perspective. And so y'all are at odds on this issue. Whether it be as a lawyer, it happens in mediation, we call them mediation, it's a settlement conference. Whether it happens in courtrooms, it's a big clash. Sometimes you have jurors that you feel some distance from and you want to bridge the gap. And in life, we always have it, whether it's with loved ones or friends or family, we all have differences. And God knows our country's got differences now. So let me talk to you about it. And it's really just, there's some fundamental realities. From a lifetime in courtrooms in this adversarial setting, whereby nature, you've got opposing views. And one side's gonna come out ahead of the other. You've had to, I've had to hone this skill and figure this out to survive and thrive. And so this is the end product of a lot of thinking about it and a lot of living it. If you really wanna get someone to listen to you and give you a chance of getting through to them when they're in an opposite conclusion you want them to be in. The starting point is not to proud beat 'em. It's not to butt heads with 'em. 'Cause what happens when you say, put up your dukes, you're wrong. They put up their dukes. What the hell, chance do you have a change in your mind when you pick to fight with 'em? The starting point isn't the fighting. The starting point is put in the fighting away and say, I need to walk in your shoes. I need to see it through your eyes, even if I disagree. Because if I understand how you got where you got and why you're there, then I can figure out how to talk to you about maybe my ways of thinking about it. - Yeah, but Keith, how do you do that? If you think the other side is just being a baby and unreasonable and they're just being completely, you can't even talk to them. They don't want to be in the same room as you. Like they're not gonna talk to you unless they have that specific point of business. If you pick up the phone, they're not gonna pick up the phone. They wish you would drop dead. How do you balance that? How do you get to wedge all these things in when that's the dynamic you're dealing with? - Sure, I'm gonna give you the ideal answer and then I'm gonna confess the real answer with me. The more stubborn they are, the more pigheaded they are, the more of a jackass they're being. The more important this is if you really wanna get through and the harder it is 'cause the more you don't wanna do it. Now, there's a line I cross where my strategy changes to go to hell I'll see in court. So I got enough of my dad in me that I have my limits. I ain't gonna be. But when I blow my stack, you know what I do? I feel good for about three minutes and then I feel like hell 'cause I realize well any chance of working getting the end result I wanted without having to go to the jury just went out the damn window 'cause of your temper bud. So it isn't the way to go but I don't wanna stand up here and sound like I got this all figured out. I figured out how to do it. It's easier said than done some times depending on how offensive the other side is. But the truth is if you can stay true to this, you may not get through that person but your only hope is this method. And look, there's some people you say, I'll give a damn if you see it my way. Save it, don't do this. But when it's someone you care about or need them to see it your way, then this is more important than standing up for your rights to say, "I ain't listening, you're me in a jackass, I can be a bigger jackass." So let's talk about it. There are really three steps. I always like steps, steps, steps. The reason I like 'em 'cause the process is and processes can be repeated rather than just someone talking about a concept that's hard to put in a box. I like to put it somewhere it can be handed off and reused. So here are the three basic steps to this. And it is number one, you gotta start out by removing the whole topic of right or wrong. Temporarily, because look, if we don't care about right or wrong, then we're lost. As a lawyer, if you don't care about right or wrong, you're in the wrong profession. So I'm not telling you right or wrong doesn't matter. It's everything. This is just a temporary pause you're putting on it to work a process to try and accomplish a meaningful righteous goal. So first and foremost, remove the right and wrong temporarily from the process, from your thought process. And forget the point you're trying to make for a moment. Forget the point you wanna make and forget who's right and wrong. It is freeing and it's an essential step to get to the next step. 'Cause otherwise everything you're doing, your mind's just saying, they're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong, damn it, they're pig-editor. This won't work if you're thinking that way. It frees you the minute you say, for a moment, I don't care who's right or wrong. For a moment, I'm gonna quit trying to make a point. So what am I gonna replace now that I've created this vacuum, this space for me to have an opportunity to make headwind? It's the second step. You have to force yourself to see it thereby. Suspend all judgments. It doesn't matter right or wrong. Give yourself the freedom to think about, I really wanna see it their way. I wanna walk in their shoes. I wanna feel their skin. I wanna look at it through their eyes, not only what they've saying. I heard 'em saying it. I wanna understand why they're saying it. What's going on that's making 'em say that? That's what I mean by stepping into their shoes, really stepping into it. But you know what you can't do? It's stepping their shoes going, they're just wrong, it's not a bit just. It shuts down your imagination. So you, A, remove right and wrong, and forget the point you're trying to make for the time being. So that you can go to step two, which is to force yourself to see it their way. Why and pretend, you know what? I get what they're saying. I understand why they think they're right. And you're free to do it in this space in your own mind 'cause you put all these other things that would prevent you and block you from doing that. And then the third step is, from their perspective, not yours. You still haven't returned to right and wrong in your point of view. You're still in their shoes. Ask yourself from their perspective, what would get to me? Now that I'm in their shoes, I'm in there, I see it their way. I'm actually getting it. What would get to me? What might change my mind? What would make sense to me? What is the one or two or three things that someone on the other side could say to me that I'd go, he does have a point. - Elephant in the room, have you ever actually moved an inch off of your position after doing this process? Either process or movement? - Absolutely. - Can you give us a story that would make that concrete? - Yeah, yeah. I have, yeah. I have been in a position where I was in an argument with another lawyer and it got heated. And I'm really, I want him to put on my gravestone. Mittnik is a genuinely nice guy 'cause I am, but don't fuck with him. Because if you really go wrong with me, it's gonna get ugly. But I hate going there. I really like, I love people. In my enemy, I love when I have a lawyer on the other side who's a class person who I like. Rather than someone I want to kill, and you know what, you're better with a lawyer like that 'cause you're not spending all your energy every night to my somebody let me tell you where they bid. You're actually thinking about what you ought to be thinking about. But, I'm not going to be a lawyer. But I had a lawyer that really had said something to me and really set me off and I cursed them out. And I went home and I start, as I always do, I'm the first to jump someone when they're bad and I'm the first to apologize after I have because I feel bad, I jumped them and I did. And I came, I didn't want to just say sorry I blew my stack because that comes off instant seer because I wouldn't mean it. So I thought, all right, what the hell is this? Why did he say that? And I went through the process in my mind. Why did he say that? Where's he coming from? And I honestly couldn't get there. I just thought, I don't know, he's just a jackass. So I came in the next morning and I saw him in the hole and I pulled him and said, listen, I said, I'm sorry, we had the yesterday with Arjun. But I'm trying to understand why you said what you said so we truly can put this by them. And I told myself, listen, don't get defensive. And about half what he said was bullshit. But there was a kernel in there and I went, all right, that is what I said. It's not what I meant. But if that's the, I could tell you really perceived it that way. And I thought, if that's the way you perceived it, I would have been fired off like he fired at me to start it. And I realized, okay, he's wrong about that. That's not, he's twisted what I said, that's unrecognizable. But that really is his experience. So that's why he said something crappy to me. And so you know what I said, I didn't say that's not what I meant. That's not what I said, man, you're foolish. We just ended up cursing each other out again. I thought it doesn't matter. I really want to make peace. We got about days more trial and he's up to that point. It seemed like a pretty good guy. And I said, look, man, now that I hear you say that, honestly, I didn't mean to communicate it, but I see what, how you felt. And if I was you, I'd have been angry too. So I thought you started it. You thought I started it. I'm sorry for what, and you don't say, I'm sorry that you thought I did it. Because you know what that is? You're an idiot. I said, I'm sorry, I said it. I should have been more thoughtful about what I was saying. I didn't intend it, but if I'd have thought about it, I'd have realized that could come out that way. And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to insult you. I love this. I think that your gravestone's going to be a lot more generous than the thing that you were saying earlier. And the implementation of your process, removing right from wrong, just thinking about it, and then seeing what could be something that would move like me off my position. And then you implementing it, that's a really beautiful thing. And then some high level mirroring almost at the end there. Yeah, and I'm going to walk through this in a couple courtroom examples and maybe some life examples, but you just said something mirroring. And because you know, I talk so many times to just lawyers. And in this format, I understand there's going to, there may very well be some folks that aren't lawyers. And I'm actually going to send this particular episode to my mother. So yes. Okay. I want to share something about, I went to divorce remarried. I've been coming up on 16 years, very, very happily married. My last marriage was not a thing. Congrats. That's amazing. Oh, yeah. But my last one was, did not end happy. And I want those stones to just look, we were, didn't, didn't work. Regardless, it's all of us. But I went to counseling and I learned a valuable lesson that really is part, you know, life experiences come together for our epiphanies and our ideas and things that move us. And this was one of them. And I went to counseling and they had something that counselor said who was really actually very talented and said, we're going to do mirroring. That's what made me think of it. You said mirroring. And I thought, you know, what the hell's mirroring? And she goes, here's how it works. And all it was, it's a fancy word and technique for active listening. And in life, active listening is a skill set that we forget about that's essential. When someone is really being listened to actively, they feel respected. It is a bonding. In courtrooms, active listening is a must. Because if you're worried about how you're performing, how you're looking and you're worried about your next question and you're not listening, for example, and across examination, they may say something was the greatest answer you should get a wish for and you missed it because you weren't actively listening. Or you may think they gave you the answer you needed and they really didn't. They skirted it and you missed it because you weren't really listening. You're worried about your next question. And if you're actively listening, hard, you're going to understand the fatal flaws in what they're saying when you're right and they're wrong and give you opportunities to then expose it to the world. So active listening in a courtroom is everything but in personal life, how many times is someone listening, you're looking down at your emails, your text, how many times is someone doing you're kind of looking off and someone's walking by. You know when they do it to you, what do you think? You ain't listening to me. And people just keep talking because it's become so commonplace, but it's rude. It's just rude. And if you're talking to someone, they're doing. And really listening, you know what you do? You go away and say, I like that person. Don't you want people to like you? Listen to them, they like you. And by the way, you may figure something out that's helpful. So anyhow, I'm off the law lesson, but let me just bear with me a minute on this mirror because it was profound to me. So what you did was active listening and it worked this way. Your spouse, significant other was to talk about something that was a big scratcher. And your job was to be completely 100% unjudgemental. You couldn't be defensive. No matter how wrong they were, they could be 100% wrong. You weren't allowed to say, but that's wrong. That's not what happened. You couldn't fix anything. You just had to listen and the idea was then listen and to prove you were listening, you had to say it back. And if you were off the mark, they would say, they weren't supposed to say, no, idiot, that's not what I said. They're supposed to be kind back and say, close, but you missed part of it. And you're supposed to then say, tell me some more, explain some more. And you do this process of listening, repeating back with their communicate, not verbatim. That's parading. You say it back in your own words to prove you got it until they go, you got it. The magic of doing that process is even if they're wrong, even if they're saying you did this, this, you go, I didn't do that. That's bullshit. You now understand at a deep level appreciation how they experienced it. And when you understand how they experienced it, your temperature comes down. And it becomes far less important to prove that's not what I said. Now you feel bad. You feel I didn't mean to, but I made you feel like shit and I'm sorry. And I'm going to work on that. And it is healing as hell. That's weird. I mean, now in my situation, I would do it really good because I wanted to impress the council. Look how well he plays this. And she go, very good. And then it'd be my turn. I said, well, here's this bother me. I'm divorced. Didn't work. But I took the process with me. And it's a, it's a beautiful thing in life. And I use it in court. So let's, let's go on. Yeah. And you're married now 16 years. I think you've, I think you're living everything you're, you're talking about. And my wife is the love of my life. And I am hers. That's beautiful. For one of these lessons, we, we, we all learn as we get older, hopefully. In any event. So let's go back real quick to the three steps that I'm going to apply. I'm in the courtroom just a little bit for the lawyers that are listening to a couple examples. But first, remove right or wrong from the process all together and forget the point you're trying to make for the moment. To force yourself to see it their way, really see it, understand it. Why they feel that way with no judgment. And third, then stay in their perspective, in their point of view, ask yourself, what might matter to them? What may get to them? What might take change their mind? Or at least take the wind out of their sales, where they're not surpassing it against you in a courtroom. That's valuable to with jurors and it's not a one person decision. So let me apply that to a mediation setting. And for those of you that are not lawyers, mediation is the fancy word we use for settlement conferences. When we go, usually the court orders them, but regardless, both sides come in. There's a mediator who tries to broker a deal between the two sides. One sides up here wanting this, one sides down here that want to pay much. And they try to move them until you find a common ground and everybody settles. That's called a mediation. And it's a common very, very important. Okay, I have to go on a tangent. Sorry, not sorry here, but I just need to ask. We have the wealth of experience. Have you ever just like walked out of a mediation early? Oh, hell yes. I got that. I got that. I mean, we walk out of mediation all the time early when it's clear that we're so far, look, you're here and they're here. You can bridge the gap. If you're here, you ain't bridging the gap. Every now and then it actually happens. But when they come in saying, look, there's a cold day in hell. We're gonna have a-- you more than $10,000 and you're saying, "Well, it's called Cold Day in Hell, so we're going to take a dime less than a million dollars." There's probably not a technique going to bridge that gap. And guess what? The mediator charged a lot of money. So you have the ability to say, "I'll see you in court." So you're in a different position than a lot of other attorneys. That's really amazing. I didn't mean to let's get back a track. Sorry. The way Morgan and Morgan are firm, we try probably more, I'm sure, more case than anyone in America. We are wired to go try cases, not just me trying cases. We try every week our emails light up on Friday with all the verdicts coming in. So when anyone in our law firm says, "All right, we tried, we'll see you in court." They know we ain't bluffing. And that's all ours. Absolutely. And you're obviously one of the all-stars of this, the biggest firm in the country that does it. So really gone. Hey, we'll see in court and I'm bringing Old Man Mittnik for whatever it's worth sometimes that helps. We got some other folks that are trial specialists that are fantastic. And so they know we're coming. They know we're coming with people know what they're doing. But that's a different topic. So anyhow, in a mediation setting, this is something I've done and I teach our lawyers to do it because I think it's a very effective way that uses this exact tool. You come into mediation and you've got, let's, all right, I'm going to give you a real life example. On the other side, they're not offering enough. But you think there's a realistic chance you might settle the case. I wouldn't waste my time on this. You're so far apart, don't disclose what you're going to tell the jury and give them a heads up. But you really think there's a chance you're going to settle the case, but you need to move them off their rock a little. One of the techniques I would do is rather than say, well, listen, let me tell you what we're going to do to you and why? You're just but you know what the other lawyers are? Well, I'm going to tell you what I'm going to do and you get nowhere. You go further apart, not further together. So what I will say is, listen, I'm not going to sit up here and tell you all of our good facts and all the things we think are going to make us win. You've got a really good lawyer. You're a very experienced adjuster. I know you've gotten reports. I know you know it all. And I'm not going to just sit up here and talk to you. Hear myself talk or sound impressive. But what I do know is there are certain facts that you're relying on that are giving you confidence. And it's giving you confidence. In the more confidence you are, the less inclined you are to compromise. So I want to talk about some of the things that are giving you confidence. And I'm not going to tell you wrong. What I am going to tell you is what I'm going to be telling the jury about those things. Because in fairness, you want to make a smart business decision. And you can't make a smart business decision if you're not fully informed and your lawyer can't inform you what I'm going to tell a jury. I can. And while I'd like to hold it back and not tell you and surprise you with it as a courtesy and respect for the process and respect for you, I'm going to share for whatever it's worth what I'm going to be telling the jury about this. And then you don't need to respond. But when you go back and start in your own room and private talking about it, I just ask you to consider what do you think that how that may play with the jury. And I can tell you because I've said this to many jurors before, it doesn't always is effective, but it usually is. But you decide. But I don't want to keep it in the dark. That would not be fair. So I'm going to give it to you. You know my. And then I list these are the things you're most excited about. And I understand why. And let me tell you the one, two of them honestly don't worry me much because here's what I'm going to tell the jury. But there's one of them that if we lose, it's probably going to be on that. That to me is your best back. And I'm not bullshit. It is. That what does it hurt me? That's a really amazing approach to just show the cards basically. But you know what happens they go from, or they're overdued and not listening. You know, just anyway, they can to show you disrespect. And then all of a sudden they're going, well, I want to hear what he's going to say to the damn jury. And he just acknowledged what we're excited about. He's right. And he's even admitted that's the one if he loses going to me on. What the hell is he going to tell the jury about that? And then I tell them what I'm going to tell the jury about that. Are you scared to say why maybe you're wrong or you know, for lack of a better word or you know, where your weakness is? Like isn't that something that is a big no no? And I'm not trying to get it from you. I'm serious. Like that seems crazy to do that. No. Like you're showing weakness. And you're showing your cheek and your armor. Let me ask you this. Do you think they don't already feel great about that fact? Cool. Yeah, but why would you bring it up? Why would you show weakness, especially if you feel like you're correct? Right. Let me ask you when I'm done. If it sounds weak. I mean, being honest with somebody, by the way, when is the last time someone told you, look, I'll acknowledge this is a problem and this could be, but, but you know what you do when you hear that? You don't think they're weak. You think this crazy son of a bitch is so confident. He's not scared to say the obvious. And there's a trust and there's an immediate now. I like it. And there's a like they're like, you know what they're saying is boy, this is out of the mold. This guy's unusual. And when I'm done with what I'm going to tell the jury, they go away going, I don't know if I want to walk into court with this guy. He's tuned in and he's not a bullshitter. And if he talks to the jury, that way they're going to like him because he's a straight shooter. God damn he's a straight shooter. I am. And it's an advantage. I don't be a straight shooter as a strategic tool. I am. And you've seen and you've seen that literally turn 180's in a mediation alone. Absolutely. That's so cool. Let me give you the example. So I'll give you a real real life example. You've got a bunch of social media posts showing my guy, Rowan or Roboat. He's in crew after the injury, winning, holding up his trophy, carrying the boat over his head with four or five other people that's a neck injury case. And being with his friends doing all kind of stuff, plus a surveillance of him carrying not a 12 pack, but two 12 packs under one arm and from the beer, putting it in his trunk or going to the beach and unloading it. And we're talking about, we're going to be asking the jury for every million dollars. And I know what y'all are thinking. You're thinking he didn't look hurt bad and the jury is going to be offended because that can't be a bad injury. Look at him. He's living an active life. I understand why you feel that way. But if you don't mind, I'm going to tell you what I'm going to say to the jury about it. And you've got to be careful not to fall into and like you're preaching to them because they're going to shut down. I will look away from him and pretend there's a juror over here. So I don't fall in the trap of wagon because I'm a wacker, starting to wag at him. I look over here. Let's such a great nuance. Like just that alone, that's gold. Like don't be preaching. Don't wag the finger. Pretend like there's a jury. So you're acting it out so it's depersonal. That's amazing. I want them to be an observer and like they're going to be if we don't settle because that guy's going to sit in the back of the room and watch all this and say, you know, you don't see what I'm going to say and you can assess how you think it may play out with the jury. And then I say, listen, this is not ladies and gentlemen of the jury. This is not the kind of injury that interferes so much with the doing as it does with the experience of doing. It's the kind of injury that that it's people call it some injuries, cane pain. This isn't cane pain. You don't need a cane to get around. This is more like pilot light pain. Pilot light pain for those of us that are old enough pilot light was in the old hot water heaters or stoves and you would turn it off, but it never went out. It was always there flickering. And when you would turn up the heat of the blades, but you'd turn it back off and it didn't go out. That's why it's often called pilot light pain because it's always there flickering. And my client lives between flickering and flare up and it's taken my clients ability is taken my clients freedom to live life without making a bunch of many choices. Do I do or don't do they can still do, but they're going to pay a price or do you say I'm not up for it today. I'm not going to do it. Now they've sacrificed what they would have done or they do it and they pay the price or lay it on a heat pad. They're taking pain pills. Now that's this kind of injury and by the way folks, this kind of injury that interferes not so much today with the doing as it does with the experience of doing is not a small matter because the experience of doing is very important. As human beings we treasure pleasure. Life's not all pleasure. Life's hard, but we treasure pleasure. That's why the jury instruction the judge is going to give you says you shall consider as one of the elements of damage the impact on enjoyment of life. That's because enjoyment of life. matters in a world that's hard and this impacts enjoyment. Can he still go to movie and enjoy the movie? Sure, but it's a different experience than if you're sitting there just taking it in or if you're doing the same thing but there's that fission around trying to get comfortable because it never goes away. It's wearing. It's like walking into the department store and hear that noise and you can't get away from it ever. It just wears over. Little takes little pieces over a long period of time and it takes a huge toll but they they can still go to religious ceremony and get a lot out of it but it's a different experience because they're sitting there saying I can't wait till he's done so I can get up and move I need to stay up rather than just taking it in and tear it up because it's touching it. It's a different it's you still do sports the person can still go over on their job but you know what they got to make a decision all those little choices they're freedom to just jog without worry is gone because they're either going to go slow to minimize the impact or today I'm blowing it out but they're going to pay the price and this is not the kind of injury that you can judge from the outside looking in but it doesn't mean we can't get to the bottom of judging it doesn't mean you have to take their word for it because we have MRIs and MRIs don't lie and you're going to see them with your own eyes and we're going to have surgeons who can come in who've met the patient and put all the pieces together did what we call a clinical correlation and are going to tell you this is a serious injury happened in that crash period and the defense is going to show you these Facebook pictures let me show you something I'm gonna put them up look folks they're gonna show you this surveillance from picking up all this beer and one hour look I'm gonna show you a clip of it no one has ever ever said he can't do those things but you know the you see all of his buddies with them they're all fit and shaped they're all in their late 20s you know what nobody else is doing so that they can smile and have fun and do all they're not all getting now up to 25 injections so they can maintain a quality of life but you can't see that from the outside we've all heard the saying you can't judge a book by its cover well we're gonna open the cover up for you wide open when we get into this trial and we're gonna show you what's going on the inside and you're gonna know and you're not gonna have to just take a word for it but you can't judge it from the outside you know what it's like if you were to judge it from the outside it'd be like two students were fighting to get the best grade in the class they're the two smartest kids and one of them's got a little and so that one switches out the test the written test into Spanish knowing his competitor then read Spanish so he gets a bad grade that wasn't a test of his competency it was a trick so we can't look at the pictures from the outside because that's an external assessment doesn't fit this because this isn't pain and you know what most of the external assessments are not that big a deal some are horrible but most if I spray my ankle and I walk around I'm limping I'm on crutches it's a giveaway you can tell from the outside now roll up my pants and take off the ace bandage you can put it on it looks gross broken arm the cast gives it away it's intense pain for a short period of time it's short live when the pain is less intense you can't see it from the outside but when it lasts forever those other injuries bail in comparison because they're short live this is forever but we can judge it and see it the ways I've told you we're gonna prove it till you want to take their word for it but let me add the last piece to this folks today's as good as it's gonna get as the natural aging process overlays on top of those damaged links in my client's spine it's only gonna get worse and worse because the spine never gets a moment off it's always under use and stress and it's gonna get worse and worse and worse and there's gonna come a day where it starts interfering more and more with the doing in addition to the experience of doing but we don't come back here in 30 40 50 years from now redo this we get it right now we don't get it right at all that's why they say it's a verdict for all time now I'm gonna tell that to the jury I turn back to it and I say look you may go sounds good get out the violence I don't care I said but now you at least know what I'm gonna tell them and you can assess it from your perspective might that work or not and by the way here's our verdict book we hand out and I don't want to rub it in your nose your lawyers know but you don't have to take my word for it I can name in there if you want to know it has the media draw come in I'll show you the ones where I made that argument and you'll see what the verdict wasn't what the settlement offer was so honestly folks whatever happens I respect your view and I understand your view and I'd probably feel the same way but at the end of the day I don't decide you don't decide the jury decides now you know what they're gonna hear I love it I love it I mean even your terms of phrases the pilot light pain this you can't judge a book by its cover let's open the book you're just dropping bombs on here and they're really really beautiful and your likability is off the charts I don't know about mine because I was interrupting you along this one but no I don't know no you're really you're really you're really a gem and this this has been this has been amazing do you have any other closing thoughts on this topic yeah yeah let me just I'm gonna give you one courtroom example with a jury with a juror actually a whole jury because it morse into what I really liked in with which is the global appeal of this in the global benefit of it all of us in difficult times but it came I was trying to case in very conservative area I won't say where but a very very very conservative very wealthy conservative area does it rhyme with schmexus sorry no no that's not it was in Florida but and they were just notorious for not getting good verdicts down there and we try to case and in the and it was going really well really well and the other lawyer was a nice guy I like them and in closing argument he did something outrageous but it scared the shit out of me it was so bad it caught I don't get caught on guard much but I couldn't believe he was doing it and I'd kind of let the moment that Jack go and if I'd have jumped up when I did it it got me worse so I just had to self-help it and rebuttal and I applied this process and here's what he said he said you know we got TV news he got MSNBC he got CNN and then you got Fox News I'm a Fox News watcher now everybody on a juror was he knew or Fox News Watchers it was just totally inappropriate but I'm like then he went further like it's too late to stop now I'm gonna look like I'm on MSNBC why is it an appropriate for him to bring up Fox News and appeal to the jury like that you can't bring in politics in the courtroom to try and swing jurors number one number two who he watches on news and it's like and it was a blatant play on prejudice and sympathy that had nothing to do with the fact is totally irrelevant I give him credit he tied it in a little at the end but he tied it in in a way that made it even worse he says and you know that one of the reasons that I really like Fox News is their their motto is fair and balanced fair and balanced and y'all just heard this is closing argument I've done mine I've got a rebuttal I get to get back up but for a few minutes but he's on his turn and I've already asked for a lot of money it's a seven figure because it was worth it it was a valid that was the only it to ask for less would have been chicken shit and unfair so I asked for what it was worth and he gets a Mr. Menter talking about all this you know more than a million dollars he goes and I think about Fox News amount of fair and balanced and you know all we ask is that you don't lose some way left to center crazy number you just do fair and balanced and I thought and I knew the jurors were were body language and questions it felt like the case was going good and I could feel the he's just like reminding them don't give these son of a bitch as much money you might as well become a Democrat if you do and and I'm like damn it I hated it was wrong but I give him credit it was smart and that guy laid low and been real nice and he just waited the last minute to gut punch me so I thought okay I got to deal with it and I thought through you there's only one way to talk to these folks it's from their shoes and what matters to them and so I kind of I'm still listening to his final stuff and I'm processing quick because he was done that was his final thing within two minutes after that he's done so I stood back up and said you know council talked about fair and balanced and Fox News and MSNBC and no matter where you stand I think one thing we all can agree we've gotten so divided in our country it is heartbreaking it is heart breaking And we walk around in our society, angry, upset, worried, and it's very disheartening and it's very troubling. And people ask me, because you can look at me and tell them I've been in a lot of court rooms, people ask me, why do you spend so much time in court rooms? And you know what I say to them? Because it's hollowed ground. This is a place where all of that divisive outside is put aside and we can have a moment to come together and do some special. We can do something together that is at the core of America, justice. And I am blessed to be able to be in here so often. It's almost escape, but it's more than an escape. It takes us back to the original values of our country. And God knows we all need to be reminded of it. And this is not just a place of a reminder, it's a place of doing what our country was built on. And I'm going to sit down because you're probably tired of hearing me talking ready to go do justice. And I just ask one thing. Please bring back a verdict that is an all American verdict and does all American justice. That is amazing. I want to be on that jury. Like that is like a movie moment. You turn it back on. I did on it. I literally had tears coming down. I was afraid they're going to move from this job because I was crying. My voice was cracking because I am broken about what's going on out there. And I do feel like this is safe haven for me. It is hollow ground. And they could feel I meant it. And you could see them sitting up tall. And it wasn't a trick again. I talked to them in a language we can all understand and we all crave. And they brought back what is to my I was told I've never checked it was the biggest verdict they've had in that county. Sharon balanced as they should. It was fair and balanced. There's nothing wrong with the saying it was trying to be exploited in a wrong way. And I just stopped the exploitation. But how did I do it? You know what I did for just a moment? I put aside right and wrong. I stepped into their shoes. And I thought if I'm in their shoes, what would matter to me? And you know the beauty. This is what I want to finish on the beauty of it to me was. It's probably why I was tearing up. Because I realize what matters to them is the exact thing matter to me. We all want the same thing. And I just think what in the world is going to bring our divisiveness together as a country. It's a lot easier to do in a courtroom than six people than across the nation. And I'm not silly enough to think I got an idea is going to fix it all. But I do believe if people would take the heart this process and say you know what? The people on the other side of the aisle who I don't agree with. For just a moment, I'm going to try to think how they see both ways, Democrat to Republican Republican to Democrat. And say I'm going to pause long enough to appreciate and stepping their shoes because the empathy that comes out of that if both sides did it. I think there's a chance we can remember we are all American. We all love each other. We don't we got no business hating one another. So beautiful. That's really, really beautiful. Thank you so much, Keith. Thank you all.