Performance Nutrition: Lessons From Special Ops + Elite Athletes for Everyday People | Jessica Spendlove

10 years ago, Dr Tom Buckley and I were on stage together, running a workshop for a room full of senior leaders, and when we got to the nutrition component, I watched the room change, arms folded, people were sitting back in their chairs, you could feel them literally closing up. As we walked off stage that day, I said to Dr Tom, "I think we have to take nutrition out of our programs." We had built detailed behaviour change methods around sleep, recovery, mindset, psychological attachment, productivity and operating rhythms, and from that day, we deliberately left food off the table, not because it didn't matter, because when we were asking participants to change behaviours specific to nutrition, it felt like we were asking people to change or challenge their fundamental beliefs. Someone's grandmother had a rule about eat porridge and it sticks to your ribs. Someone else had grown up Lebanese or Greek or Italian, where food is the family. Someone else was three weeks into a protocol they found online and they are not letting go of it. There is more emotion and there is more belief, or what psychologists call schema, sitting on a plate of food than in anything else we teach. So, nutrition stayed where we could dive into it properly, in our executive performance programs, with CEOs and senior leaders, or in our high-end coaching programs. Jessica's spend love went the opposite way. She heard the noise, she heard the confusion, and as an accredited dietician, she decided it had become way too loud to ignore. There is nuance with nutrition, there is nuance, and that's probably part of my own evolution as well, because when I'm working with the athletes or with the special operations, which I've also done for seven years, they have specialists in all of these areas, so we can go really deep on that. When I'm working in the corporate world, there's not many that want to engage a performance nutritionist, and I am going to have an opinion, because other people with way less qualifications are out there shouting from the rooftops. Run this morning past yourself for a moment was a coffee, then another coffee perhaps, something at your desk if there was time, maybe a protein bar in the bag for later, and then at 3pm you reach for something sweet and call it a rough day. That is not a discipline problem. Jessica would tell you it is a rhythm problem, and rhythm can be fixed a lot easier than you might just think. Jess doesn't start with what you eat, she starts with wham, and she starts with how consistently you eat, because the craving you get at 3pm is not weakness, it's a message about something you missed earlier in the day. Was she having breakfast? Was she fasting, dabbling in that, was she eating the scraps of her children's plate? Was she waiting to eat until she got to the office at 10am? Was she having breakfast before she left at 7am? That is a 3 hour chaotic window where there is zero rhythm and consistency. Jessica has operated at the sharpener for more than a decade. Seven professional sporting teams at the same time, Olympians, premiership sides, seven years advising special operations. Environments we're getting it wrong can turn up on a scoreboard on the weekend. And then the critical areas Jess had spent 10 years helping other people avoid, she walked straight into herself. That is not a whole in a CV, it is a reason why she is so passionate about her work. Plenty of people can tell you what the research says, Jess can tell you exactly what it feels like, and then exactly what you do to get back to your optimum levels of performance. This is the show that brings potential into everyday life. This is performance intelligence. Jess, where I'd like to start this conversation, fact check is you are working with seven sporting teams at the one time. Correct, I was. Your job as a nutritionist is to look at hydration and fuel and a big part of that is physiological recovery. Working with seven teams at the one time, how did you hold doing that and also burning yourself out at the same time? I have absolutely no idea. I was completely depleted for many, many years. But honestly the narrative I told myself was this is normal, this is the price you pay for the opportunities you've been afforded. I was probably running on adrenaline quarters all in caffeine. My ego was loving itself and I was neglecting my own needs. So there I was talking the talk was not walking the walk in that phase of life. And you know, I ignored the whispers which turn to the nudges which turn to the pushes until I was absolutely stopped in my tracks. Whispers, nudges, pushes. So what were some of those whispers? Because our audience, we've got a wide audience. We've got a number of athletes. We've got a lot of corporate athletes aspiring athletes. We have a defense audience. We have a large entrepreneurial audience and there's a whole bunch of scientists and academics. It's a range. There'll be people listening to this guy, are you whispers? What were your whispers? How did that then become louder? Yeah, the whispers, the main one that stood out was getting sick often. Nothing major, but the little colds, the little, you know, picking things up which athletes, you know, they overtrain and then everyone gets sick and it moves through the club. So for me, it was similar to that. It was generally more in that kind of upper respiratory tract infection style, you know, in different formats. And I remember one week clear as day, the week before the GWO's Giants made the grand final. We just hung on by, you know, I don't even know how we hung on, but we hung on against Collingwood. We just hung on against Brisbane the week before. And I remember flying back to Melbourne, you know, the excitement, they finally made the grand final after so many, so many near misses. And I could feel the illness setting in by the second. I felt it in my head. I could feel my lungs on fire. And I just thought, I'm now going to miss this. I'm not going to be there to support them. And I did go, but I was, you know, 40% out of 100%. And so for me, it was really the illness. The other things were sleep. Sometimes, you know, I'd struggle to get to sleep. Some other times, I'd be absolutely exhausted and sleep through my alarm, which I would never do. And then there were the silly things that I did, like leaving my laptop on a car and just forgetting that it was there because I was dashing from one team to the next and I was 10 minutes behind, which is how I lived my life. Or one of the most embarrassing ones, which I can't believe I'm bringing up, but here we go. So it was again, the, the giants. And I'd had a consult with the, the CEO and I hadn't gone back to him. So ridiculous. I'd just cringe at this now. It was like a day or two later. It's a consult for anyone who doesn't understand. You're sitting down, you're craft as a nutritionist. You're helping the CEO who is an important person when you're a nutritionist for a professional sporting team. Yes. So you had a one-on-one consult and you hadn't got back to him. And I shouldn't have gotten back to him that day. That's what I do now. You know, if I've seen a client you're hearing from me that day and a day or two would pass, and I was like, I really need to send, you know, what we've discussed. I just like to put it in an, you know, in an email, in a plan. So they've got it, even though we've talked about it, you know, it's all written down, you know, and he's no part in everything back then. And a email went out to the entire club. It was the end of the season. Chris was party time. What are your wins from the year? You know, like a few things. You said back to everybody. And I decided, oh, that was the time to reply with that information and also what we've discussed in the consult. Horrific. So embarrassing. My stomach turns for you. I know. I'm like, I can feel the redness elevating now 10 years on. He was great. You know, I got roasted the entire Christmas party. So I should have, you know, the person sitting next to me was like, what dickhead's going to send that reply or email? That dickhead was me. I think this person said that to you, not knowing who you were. And, um, yes, that was, that was definitely one of the worst. GWS. So paint the scene, which other sporting times were you working at that time? So I was at the GWS Giants and the Canola Sharks for eight years, around 2000 and 2014 to 2021. But it was the Giants Netball, the Sydney Kings, the New South Wales Waratars and the Western Sydney Wanderers. Yeah. So you're working at the high level, you're talking, you're talking to athletes about everything you're not doing. So reflection, it's wonderful, isn't in hindsight. What did you miss? And I'm asking on a couple of levels, one is to learn from you, but there'll be people listening to this going, I see a bit of that in myself. I'm trying to do everything on operating at a high level, but I'm running on empty, but I'm curious with my background and studying exercise physiology and psychology, you're there leaving that breathing that, but there's duality around it. You're not actually doing that. And then I took you to get really sick. What were you missing? I was eating well, you'd hope. I was exercising daily. I was sleeping pretty well generally because I was exhausted every now and then, you know, that would kind of dip and that would be like definitely a red flag. The thing I was not doing was recovering at all. There was zero recovery. I was taking the burnout vacation every year and getting myself back to baseline. If that's a burnout vacation, did you get on holidays, you crash, your family loved ones go, what are you doing? You're giving us your worst, you feel shitty tired, irritable, and you go back to work, hey, I'm back, I'm fresh. Was that happening? Yeah. Yeah. And then you kind of just get used to feeling suboptimal and then suboptimal even feels good because you've just been so exhausted. But then at the same time, I loved what I did. You know, I'm very driven, I'm very motivated. So then the adrenaline was driving it. And then when the teams were successful and then the growth and all of that being part of that, the best. I say all professional coaches are a little bit left of center. They're highly driven. They're generally great engaging others. And they've got a real agenda. And if you can jump on that train and get a carriage on that train, it's a wonderful ride. As long as you're about balancing between stress and recovery. So you're doing everything else, but you haven't quite put that recovery piece in. You're young, but then you probably thought, ah, I don't need this. I can out work everyone else. So crash on holiday, sleep when I'm dead. Was it highlander? Better to burn out than it is to fade away. Then it caught up on you. So what happened? When did it all change? - I definitely had a narrative that I had a greater capacity than most. And that was ingrained from swimming 9, 10, 11 years of age, winning nationals, you know, training two hours before school, two hours after school from U5 and 6. Towards the end, you know, 2019 just pre-COVID, I started to go, I'm a bit empty. I have achieved everything I want, but I'm missing everything else in life. - So you've taught a whole bunch of professional athletes. You're doing everything apart from recovery, which in hindsight now it's a gift, right? 'Cause you can sit across someone, a mile or a female. Look them in the eyes and go, "Hey, I know the science about this. I can give you constructs and concepts." Let me tell you about this story, about this young woman, I know called Jess, who thought that she could outperform everything, outperform science, outperform physiology, outperform everything we've learned around science, and suddenly it caught up on me. You're biggest learning from all of that. What was it? - Yeah, look, it's, it's that no one is invincible, you know, and I say this in my keynotes. It's like, you know, that one truth is that no matter how exceptional you are, you are not invincible. And I see this with, you know, the unicorn founders or, you know, the senior leaders, there's anyone in the sea suite, it's, you just said it. You cannot outrun your physiology. You can have tools and you can have systems and not everyone has the same 24 hours in the day, but there is a tipping point and you can't outrun it. - Let's hold that thought. Jess is about to take us through a story about a managing director who thought she was doing everything right and show you that the three hours of her morning is where it all came apart. But first, let's take a quick break. - Hi, this is Angela Poon. And at Performance Intelligence, we embed simple science-backed habits that boost physical and psychological wellbeing, improve engagement and create lasting cultural change. Over the past four years, we've partnered with the Australian Defence Force on a social mastery program that has reached over 7,000 staff across the country. This program has included engaging half-day master classes, quarterly webinars and all powered by a digital platform, PQ Academy. 94% of participants indicated an improvement in their physical and psychological wellbeing and 78% felt more connected to their leadership team. Let's listen to Commander Dean Thompson, commanding officer at HMAS Harmon for his feedback on the program. - This is a fantastic program. How do we propagate this out and get maximum reach? Because regardless of whether you're a public servant, you're in the Army, Air Force, Navy, non-service group, you know, the joint domain, you know, cyberspace, there's something there for everyone. And so that was the idea around what the program looks like now. So the integrated mindset, social mastery journey with the master classes being held at AdFa and then supported by the social mastery program, which is the online component across four weeks. - If you'd like to talk about how we can tailor a program to achieve similar results for your team, visit performanceintelligence.com to book a complimentary strategy session. - Did you play board games growing up? - A little bit. - What was your favorite board game? - Well, monopoly was always good, you know, you want the properties and the cash, like, you know, why not? Everyone does. - Jenga, I like you know as well, you know, that's always fun. - Did you play dominoes? - Well, yes and no, but I know where this is going. - Where this is going? - Yes. - You look at me thinking, where is he going? So a recent article in the Air Force, written by you and Black. Shout out to you and he's a good man, you're in. Covered a managing director you work with named Marnie, who is doing everything right on paper, eating well, sleeping enough, gym four times a week. Marnie was still running on empty. She still couldn't focus. There's a lot of Marnie's listening to this right now. So I'm curious to know, when you sit down with a Marnie or a Max or anyone in between, what do you cover? What's your approach? - Well, before I sit down with them, so I guess I, you know, we have the discovery call and see if we're a good fit. But before I sit down with them, and I ask for 90 minutes to two hours of their time, and these are busy people. - So your first console, is that, is that long? What am I supposed to do? - But I ask them to complete a seven day life audit. And so it's really, I say this is the most time-intensive thing I'm going to ask you to do. But the more I know you in your life, the more I can help you achieve the goals that you've got. Because traditionally, I don't know about you, but you kind of taught to go, what's a typical day? These people don't have typical days. - Oh, they tell you, they tell you the A side. Like, do you remember cassettes? Did you have cassettes growing up? So the A side is the best hits. And that's, you know, you buy a queen and they've got all the top songs on ones on the B side, is the hits that either didn't make it or the ones that they are slow to release or slow to pick up. And we tend to walk over our top side, our A side. So yeah, if you ask someone, give me a day, they'll give you the A side, the top hits. But yeah, if you go a bit longer than that, you'll start to see a pattern or a system. - Exactly. And look at still, whenever you're capturing something like that, you know, people are aware the data shows that people start to shift behavior, but it's still giving me so much more information. And what I'm looking for is like, yes, what they eat, when they exercise, sleep, energy, supplements. But what I'm looking for is what they're doing and when. What is that consistency? What is the rhythm? What is the gaps? When are they at home? When are they in the office? When are they traveling? When are they dropping their kids to school? What do all of their mornings look like? Because a lot of people I know have about three or four or five different mornings. And this is where a lot of people are coming unstuck. They push through the morning because they just reactive racing out the door. A lot of things to do. Where that shows up, living reactively, not in rhythm, is the afternoon or evening. And so that's what I'm looking for. And I really want to see what that looks like across the week. So I'm not just telling them what I think they should be doing. I'm really understanding their life and what is going to work and working with them on their highest leverage habit first. So reading about Marley, it sounds like she's doing a lot on paper. She thinks she's got the right foods. She thinks she's sleeping well. She's lifting a number of times a week. Similar for him to young just so as I go, go, go, go. We get stuck. I by blame period who could put in, you know, 1897, this little Frenchman with a pencil and a stash carved out the Olympic career. It's serious out. He is 40 as faster, higher stronger. I think people like Marley, people like the young just have bought into that. We just think if I can go faster, higher, stronger, I'll get there. I reckon the Olympic creed or the IOC missed. 'Cause you know, 2021, they added another word, communicado, so it's city as out here, 40 as communicado, faster, higher, stronger community. No man or woman is an island when you were recovering in 2021 and before that in COVID, it was a time for you to restore and repair the IOC sitting at the leap year Olympics at Tokyo. It's about community, we got to connect. I think they missed something, Jess. I would have loved that they'd gone city as out here, 40 as Rukupario, faster, higher, stronger recovery. So is that what Marley was missing? Was her story similar to yours? There was a recovery piece. I mean, I don't sit down with any corporate and I'm sure you're the same where all of that is kind of that they've strategically and intentionally put that in. And if they have, they might be having a few soreners, maybe they go to a health retreat, but what are they doing on a daily basis? When are they breaking up the back-to-back meetings? When are they having some sort of intentional, stimulant free time? So there was that, but with Marley, it was really, there was this kind of three hour window in the morning. Some day she went to the gym and some day she didn't and that was just whether she needed to drop her children to school or her partner went. So that was great, but it was what was happening after that. Was she fasting and dabbling in that? Was she eating the scraps of her children's plate? Was she waiting to eat till she got to the office at 10 AM? Was she having breakfast before she left at 7 AM? That is a three hour chaotic window where there is zero rhythm and consistency. And so while in the moment in that morning window, she felt fine, which everybody does, it was showing up in the afternoon. And so that was the biggest opportunity for her. Are you Catholic? Yes, but not really. So you grew up Catholic school, so you'll get this. So this feels like communion. Forgive me, Father, forgive me sister, for I have sinned. I call it dad tax. My four kids all laugh about dad tax. So I don't buy chips, chocolate ice creams. We as have you seen me use dad tax? Have you heard the kids talk about dad tax? Yeah, so my teammates know it. And you take a little bit of tax from the kids. A couple of years ago, there was so much dad tax that I had to stop the dad tax. So you call it the scraps off your kids' plates. I call it dad tax. I know a lot of people, and there will be a lot of people watching or listening to this having a bit of a chuckle because they take dad or mum tax. Yeah. And it can be in the morning or it can be in the evening. I feel a lot of people go, well, do I try and have dinner with the children, which is really early? Or do I then wait until my evening calls or work wraps up or everyone's gone to bed and then it's eight or nine or 10, you know, so there's this kind of, which one should I do? So I find it's both ends of the day, but I really believe in getting that foundation right, that springboard, that start of the day because that is momentum. If you're always starting from around the same point from a timing perspective, from a, you know, yes, from a nutritional sense in terms of like the composition of the food, Dari Seri. your blood sugar levels off at the same. That is setting your appetite, that is setting your energy. And then from there, you're in, you get more energy and you're in rhythm. I really like the word rhythm for so many reasons, biological rhythms, but it really is about helping people think about consistency, but in a way that doesn't feel set and rigid and it must be, you know, this exact 10 steps. Am I in rhythm? Because it kind of ticks everything, adaptability, flow, and consistency. That's what I liked about the concept of the Domino Habit. You talk about the first behaviour of the day that sets the time for everything. So it's like a domino falling. You say it sits in the morning because that is when you have the most control and the fewest competing demands. You say it has to survive a bad day. There's 365 days in a year. We can have a few shitty days, put that in context. So something you can do in the office at home or on the road or in an airport lounge. I like that because I work with a lot of people who have a double life, not from a values or duplicitous nature, but when I'm at home, there's a good rhythm. When I go away, oh, excuse me, serve me down. Would you like a glass of red with this? I'll have two. And then you have dessert and everything else. So it's this synchronicity or rhythm across all parts of your life. And for anyone who travels who's listening to this, it's your life. So you've got to have a plan for travel. It sits alongside non-negotiable. So there's a minimum set of habits. You say for your busiest days, not your best ones. You can charge up and you can charge down. I really like that. It's a summary on the dominoe habit. Yeah, it's really, you know, that dominoe habit is that when you're in your busiest season and everything is just at full capacity and you don't have time for anything because what happens then, all of our good habits drop as well. It is that one thing at a minimum that you can control having your day and at least have that anchor point for setting your day up for success. So there's that. And then it's really like we can stretch that. You know, if you're on the road, maybe that's the only thing that you can manage. And then when you're at home, well, you've still got that, but maybe you can add in another one or two things. We're allowed to scale things up and back. But what we need to be mindful of, which I see so many high performers do, we benchmarked to the very best version of ourselves and we think that's baseline minimum. And we're thinking about what we were doing in our 20s and 30s before we were running a company and maybe with teenage children or a newborn. And so I really encourage people to think, what can you do on your busiest days for this season of life? And I talk about seasons a lot because seasons shift and change. And it's just about having proactive strategies that fit your life for the season that you're in. Can you give me two dominant habits for you? Give me a dominant habit when you're at home and you feel in flow. There's a rhythm, you feel like you're in control. And can you give me a dominant habit for you when you're under the pump? You've got a publishing deadline, you've got to get podcast out and you've got to do client work, you've got to get a book, you're doing a bit of consulting with other groups. So can you give me two days for you? What's a dominant habit on a like a cruzy day in flow? What's a dominant habit when you're back sides hanging out and you're in a rush? Yeah. It's changed a bit being a mum now with a 20-month-old. So it would have always been exercise. Now it is a walk and a cappuccino and a baby chino with my daughter. So it's a bit of connection, a little bit of movement, but that connection time because I don't want to look back and think I work too much and I miss that. So that's really important. And then the other one which always backs on to it regardless of the day would be for me a high protein breakfast, you know, and spreading my intake out across the day. And this is such a high leverage opportunity for people to get more energy, stabilize their blood sugars and just move through their day with so much more capacity and actually sleep better. And once you know it, you can't unsee it. So what do you do differently now? How do you use? Because I talk about very similar. There's the facts which is the verbal tech and there's the feeling that's your body and your emotions and everything. How do you dance between the two to help you now perform when you need to, but also to be a mum and to be a partner and to stay upright? I talk about mainly three subjective kind of metrics. Energy, appetite and performance. And look performance, you know, it could be an output, but it's employee assistance program. All of our HR people will be, I do an EAP. I like that. Energy. And it's like, what is your most, what is the one most important to you? Because ultimately all three will shift when you're putting the behaviors in place, but knowing the one that's most important. So energy in terms of overall levels and how consistent it is are appetite in terms of, you know, do you move through the day? You're ready to eat, but you're not like starving to over full, but it's also cravings because I don't believe cravings are actually anything more than your body and brain sending you a signal saying, hey, hello, you haven't given me enough of what I need. Therefore, give me insert biscuit chip, chocolate, salt and vinegar chip, etc. I think half of our audience is talking to me now. This woman's God. She's inside my head. And then performance, depending on who you are and what you do cognitively, you know, your ability to focus, get through everything, move that agility and then the physical, if you're training and how you feel in the sessions. So do you have a scale for that? Would you just, do you just run a baron, but I like what's my energy? What's my appetite? How am I performing? Depends on the person, you know, like a sliding scale can be good in terms of like a consult, it's always a check in, where are you at? How are you going? But for me, it is just that internal energy. There are two things I get asked about after every keynote, and that is ice baths and fasting. Jess is about to tell us where both of them rank. So let's take a short break. And when we get back into it, Jess's answers might just shake you up a little bit. Inside only matters when you put it into practice. And that's why we created the Pulse newsletter. Your weekly dose of evidence bates tools and strategies to help you build resilience, improve focus and optimise your wellbeing. It's practical, tactical, personal and grounded in performance science, helping you to apply what you hear on the podcast and put it into real life. Get the Pulse newsletter at performanceintelligence.com. Are you curious to experience the conversation in a whole new way? You can watch the full episode on our YouTube channel. You'll see the guest expressions, their energy, the little moments. You sometimes can't hear. It makes the conversation feel completely different. I've added the link in the show notes, so it's really easy to find. Domino, I want to talk about two more dominoes. Ice baths. I cannot tell you. In fact, if I had $5 for every question after I do my high performance reset keynote, where I'm talking about physical and psychological levers, I open up to the audience, any questions yet Andrew, ice baths. I went to a whim half an hour. So I'm really curious where you sit on ice baths. That's domino number one. Domino number two. Where does fasting fit in? So let's go number one. Ice baths. Getting controversial here. Ice baths. I believe you can't ice bath your way out of chronic sleep debt or a poor diet. So I think it's where are we sitting on the continuation of foundations and habits. Look, I believe in them. I basically wrote my book by having ice baths. I needed to get extra cognitive capacity out of my day, say I would get three good 90 minutes. Not a cold shower. You were having an ice bath. Yeah, at the pillars where I'm a member and I wrote the book. They've got an ice bath. So I was four degrees. How cold? Yeah, cold five, five degrees. That's cold. Yeah, I was doing contrast therapy. Yeah. So 60 to 90 seconds, sauna, back, sauna, back. So it absolutely has a place. So this is not, I'm not anti. But it's really going what actually moves the needle and the thing that moves the needle is the daily habits that you do in terms of like leverage power. I'm all about momentum and where you're going to get the biggest bang for buck. And so I believe there is a place for it. But if you're ice bathing your way out of poor sleep, a shit diet and too much alcohol, we just need to be a little bit like, where does this actually sit? And some of the research has shown as well, I'll quote, Dr. Tom Buckley, if you're a male post 40 and you haven't had a heart check and you don't know where you are, don't go into a four degree ice bath. Maybe start with a cold shower. There have been a number of people who've had heart attacks at those Wim Hof fan of the events. So I think of you in your 20s and 30s and like we use it with elite athletes with the teams I work with. I like a cold shower. I'm not doing as many ice baths, although when I'm away with it, you don't understand this when you're with a sporting team and you're in the preseason, you've flogged them and you're getting the ice bath, you sort of do it. I hate it. I try and pretend I enjoy it, but I'll dislike it. Yeah, normally a cold shower. I had a cold shower today, and I tell myself when I'm in there, I don't enjoy it, but you know, I can do this. I can do hard things and it really does, you know, it's a mentality. Yes, there's some research obviously around, you know, the hormone response, but it's just that kind of, I've done this, therefore I can do that another controllable. So it has a place, but I think we just need to really get the big picture. Biggest thing that I like about a cold shower is the nervous system regulation, because before you hop in a cold shower, you've got a breathe, like you were saying, there's so many confusing protocols around breathwork. I love what you said. The way to relax is you breathe out slightly longer than you breathe in. There's a real technical way of bringing in relaxation breathing. So I like to get people to breathe for 30 seconds, then have a cold shower. What it's doing is you're practicing the drop in your nervous system that you can then pick up during the day. Fasting. I believe fasting is an advanced tool for an advanced user. And so the reason I say this, I believe there's a lot of principles around nutrition, and I'm sure we'll get into some of them, but around rhythm, around your protein pulsing, around your plants and your diversity. there's a lot of really important principles with nutrition for your energy, your performance, your long term health, your microbiome. And so we've got these all covered and you're executing on those. I believe you, you know, you earn the right if you want to experiment with fasting. But I've never met anybody fasting who's doing that and often what they're doing is trying to justify their lifestyle. You've never met or you've rarely met people with fasting who have those core or those first principles in place because they haven't worked with someone like you. Is it because they're confused because they look there's so much myth or bullshit information out there about food? I really like to look at things from a hierarchy perspective and understand what are you trying to achieve. And I can totally understand as we're aging and we're thinking about our body composition, but then what I'm also seeing if people are doing that, then they're not spreading their protein intake out. They'll generally not have much or have a giant amount and that therefore not, you know, proving their energy or not maximizing their muscle protein synthesis or a lot of these other, you know, areas which are a focus for their body composition, their longevity, their strength, so many factors. And so I'm not saying that it's not applicable, but I really just want people to not see it as a solution to, I've got quite a few corporate dinners. I'm a really busy person. This is how I'm managing the belt at the expense of these other principles, which are really more their long-term strategy. And to be honest, their short-term strategy, like it is affecting your subjective metrics. It's affecting your energy. It's affecting your appetite. It's affecting your performance, but it's also affecting your longevity. I like how you've come back to your EAP. What do you see? What's your energy like? What's your appetite like? What's your performance? We've had some people on this podcast who are massive proponents of fasting and that's how they make their career and some wonderful scientists. You're saying a little bit controversial if you can listen to some of the fastest and the biohackers, actually don't start me on. I think there is some science around biohacking, but there's some absolute bullshit. But you're saying, get your big rocks, your core principles, then maybe use fasting after that rather than the other way around. We got it upside down. Yeah. Exactly. And then also thinking about your lifestyle and your goals, because the other thing I see is it's easy to fast breakfast. It's easy to skip that. But if that's when you're going to the gym and you're trying to gain muscle and then you're fasting for up to six hours after and then you're not maximizing these other principles, well, you're not actually supporting what you're doing. And then the other thing I see is with the athletes, and so I've worked with some athletes who look, there's a lot of athletes out there that really are not leveraging nutrition. You know, there's very few who I've sat down with. Hopefully after working with me, they've significantly improved. Well, a lot that you and I will work with are in their 20s and your 20s, your body's a biological, beautiful experiment. It heals, it restores, it bounces back, breathes you to play, then you do it and it catches up and you lose 40s and beyond. I've very, rarely worked with anyone at the start of their career other than Errol Gordon, who was a private client and he's a phenomenal athlete. But he came to me, I think he was 19 or 20, with a mindset of someone that's 33 trying to hang on and get that last 20, 19. I want to maximize my performance, I want to maximize my nutrition, I want to leave no stone unturned. This 19 year olds want to play professional sport, if it's in sport, they want to have fun and they want to get paid. Very impressive. Errol sounds different. He is. Yeah, he's wired differently and he's exceptional. And then the other one coming to mind who's also a swan's player, Dane Rampy, he's probably the most dialed in, definitely athlete, maybe person who's ever set up, I want to work with you. And we did our process and I remember thinking, shit, how am I going to work with this guy for six months, how much of an impact am I going to have? Because he was already doing so much. You know, 250 games, you know what works, he's switched on. There was maybe 10 or 20%. So we just optimized a few other principles, the protein, like there was some opportunity there, some of his fueling, but one of the biggest ones was he was fasting on his days off, which were actually the days after his biggest training day or game. So he's depleting glycogen, not recovering properly? Yeah. Men versus women fasting, and could I get really nuanced in 40's plus? Yeah. I think there's more of a place of it for men than women. And the science backs this up, you know, with women, midlife, hormones, you know, there's so much going on there from a cognitive perspective, from a microbiome, from our estrogen dropping, and what that does in terms of our muscle dropping and our bone, there's so much going on that I very rarely, if ever, will recommend that a woman fasts. And then often it can be met with a bit of, you know, sometimes I'm having these kind of challenging conversations with clients and it's never me going, no, you shouldn't fast. It's me understanding, well, why do you think you should fast? And how is that showing up for you? And I'll often use the strategy of what I call AB testing. And so it might be, if they are fasting, we'll continue to do that. Let's try the alternative and let's compare that to your short term subjective metrics. And also let's get some data on it with a, you know, a body composition scan or however else we can measure that. And often people just kind of forget that, oh yeah, well, when I do this in the afternoon, I actually do feel more tired. And then I'm reaching for sugar and then my dinner's bigger. And then my sleep is actually poorer. With men, definitely I find they adapt a lot faster. They can handle it. They can thrive off it. And this is just like not talking about any kind of medical conditions where there might be an indication that it could be favorable. And from a body composition perspective as well, they can, you know, when I'm measuring their data and their body composition, they don't tend to lose as much muscle if they're fasting, if we've got all of the other principles. He's one of the observations as we're talking. It's really rich and detailed. You're not going a blanket approach. Hey, everyone should fast and everyone should have this and everyone should have this one protocol. You're really doubling down on science. You're really looking at the person where they are in their life and their age and what generation they're in and then you're tailoring. That's complicated though, isn't it? Because the easy popular way would be, hey, let's just give principles that everyone can do. That's probably why you're getting a bit of friction because people are better. No, no. I've been told the fast. I can tell you from working with a whole bunch of women going through parietmaniples. Dr. Stacey Sims love her work saying women are not small men. So physiology we've stuffed it up for years. Here's a protocol for a male, our female will times it by point out what a lighter bullshit. So I love that you're bringing a rigor to this. I love you're bringing your experience to this and there's nothing wrong with being a bit controversial. You know, I probably edged away from that for a while because you think I want to, I want to talk about the science and I want to talk about my lived experience, but it's also this is what I've seen and I am going to have an opinion because other people with way less qualifications are out there shouting from the rooftops and you know, it is kind of getting comfortable as much talking about yourself but talking about what you've seen and there is nuance with nutrition, there is nuance and that's probably part of my own evolution as well because when I'm working with the athletes or with the special operations which I've also done for seven years, they have specialists in all of these areas. So we can go really deep on that when I'm working in the corporate world, there's not many that want to engage a performance nutritionist, you know, a lot of my clients we are covering nutrition with my background and the other reason is every single person eats every single day and there really is and as I said, anybody I've ever met, I'm happy to be challenged, please reach out and say I am doing all of those things but I've never met anybody who can't improve something and then the nutrition impacts the sleep and then the sleep impacts the recovery and so this is why this work has kind of evolved into the sustainable performance philosophy and message because in the corporate world that is going to help more people there. Interesting you said you stayed away from it for a while and I just had this thought bubble. The last 10 years, if I go back 10 years ago, I stopped talking about nutrition and Dr. Tom Buckley who I've worked with for 20 years, Tom's professor at Sydney Uni, he followed my lead because we found nutrition, if we've got a small program, we can give a protocol for recovery and psychological attachment and mindset or changing the way you think but I found nutrition and I think it's the way I was approaching it back then but was really contentious because if you were in a group, someone would say my grandmother said if you eat porridge, it sticks to your ribs, well it's probably better than having cocoa pops or fruit lobes and then someone else would go, I'm Mediterranean, I'm from Lebanon and Lebanese food so there's so much emotion that comes with food. I find it's the most contentious topic so I think as I'm talking to it, it feels like therapy and we've switched roles, yes. I think I took it out because I found it was the area where we had time where I was making a lease impact because it became very me centric rather than me centric but Tom said to me 18 months ago, hey mate, we need to put in nutrition in but let's really simplify it. So we've done that so what I'd like to really work with you because it is complex, if you've got a 52 year old female going through menopause or perimenopause and a 26 year old athlete who's training for the Olympic Games, it is very different but how do you start? What are some of the core principles you have when you look at nutrition for performance? So in the corporate sense, this is maybe the only difference and I'll go into the rest, the rhythm message and this has been landing when I have my slides and I show the uneven rhythm Which is what I like. a lot of people are doing, whether they're fasting, small breakfast, running out the door, being very reactive. And then across the day, that intake increases from both a volume perspective and also a frequency very much back-ending the day. - So the opposite of small-breki, medium, large, massive meal, opposite of what we probably should do from a tabloom, or everything else, yeah? - Yeah, and so I show that. And then I show the next slide of it, like being just a more even distribution. And this is before we even get into pulsing your protein and looking at your plant diversity and looking at your hydration and looking at your plate ratios and then periodizing your nutrition. That's before we even get there. It's just talking about the volume of your meals, the timing and that overall size, and even just aiming to spread that out front foot the day, which means we're reducing our intake at the back end, which is then supporting you to have a better night's sleep. And it's giving you more energy and better focus across the day. Like it just ripples into so many areas which your listeners would be wanting. - And our listeners would be also willing, "Hey, Jess, you said to have the domino effect "of the star of the day, so if nutrition's a big one, "give me two healthy breakfast options." - Yeah, look, if you can tolerate a cooked breakfast and you've got time or you can order it at work or you've got someone cooking your breakfast, eggs are a great breakfast, but not too, like at least four for most people, or three, if you're a-- - Much protein in my egg. - Six ish, six to seven depending on the size. So yeah, three eggs will get you close to 20, and then four eggs will get you kind of mid to 30. - How many grams of protein are you advocating for people per kilogram per day? - Yeah, look, I say 20 to 40 grams per meal, but getting more intricate is 1.5 to two grams per kilogram per day, but what I'm more interested in is per meal. So 0.3 to 0.4 grams per kilogram per meal. So if someone listening to this who's 70 kilograms, you want them having 130 to 140 grams per protein, so then you break that down. So in your breakfast, trying to get 30 or 40 grams per protein. - Great. - So you're not just front loading or back loading at all. - Exactly, and there's so much benefit to that. From a physical sense, yes, from a strength, then a recovery and a body composition and from a training perspective, but what's gonna even be more meaningful is from an energy and a focus and an appetite perspective. And that shows up that day. So your ability to gain muscle or retain muscle, all of that, that takes time, but your energy showing up as stronger, higher, less of a dip, less cravings in the afternoon or evening, that is literally that day or the next day. It is such a powerful lever. The struggle is being consistent with it when you're busy, or if this feels so far from what you're currently doing, getting comfortable with kind of stretching yourself to do that. But what I encourage people to think about is nutrition training. You know, if you're setting a goal for the gym or running or a marathon, hopefully you're not just going out and running a marathon. You're undertaking training for weeks, months, maybe years. So why do you think if you have no breakfast or a coffee or a piece of toast, you can then turn around and have a four egg omelet the next day? - That stays away from it. I haven't eaten breakfast for the last 10 or 15 years, and this woman's told me I've got to have four eggs and they feel sick, and that story or narrative schema gets entrenched, yeah, got it? So four eggs is one option. - Yeah. - Then with some colors. - Yeah, so we want to have, I talk about the element. So carbs, proteins, healthy, you know, high fiber, quality carbohydrates, color, my way of talking about fruits and veg, healthy fats, protein. The protein is the only thing I'm really prescriptive on, and then I'll give guidance around some ratios. But it's really like, if a meal of snack is brown and white, it's not complete. Let's get some color, yeah, some healthy fats as well. That's a complete meal, those four elements. - So you have four eggs and you'd have some avocado or some salad, piece of toast, saldo over. - Saldo, yeah, soy and linseed, or if you want to avoid that, you know, you could have a piece of fruit with it as well. - So most people are going to have that either at home, and if you don't have much time, if you're traveling on the road, it's easy to get that, that's my staple, well traveling. - Yeah, great. - Second option. - 10 out of 10. I think a smoothie is a great option, because that's that liquid option for the person who's thinking, oh my gosh, there's absolutely no way I'm doing that. That's a great way that you can really load your smoothie up, but it's just so much more palatable on the stomach. It's quick, it's expressed, you can grab it, you can buy it, you can take it with you. And so typically, again, we store on our 20 to 40 grams of protein, super easy. If you have a high quality way protein, isolate, or good quality plant protein, and then whatever you want to put in a liquid of choice, you know, coconut water can be quite good. Milk of choice, because you're getting your protein from the protein powder, again, less prescriptive there. And then whatever else, maybe some berries, if you're trying to keep the calories and the carbs on the lower end. And then if you've just trained in your recovering, maybe some oats with the berries, or maybe some banana, maybe some chia seeds, or something, just to round it out. - There's two really good options. And smoothies are so fast. You got to, though, sit yourself up for success. So if anyone's listening to this and you think, oh, I'm making a smoothie at home, it's hard. Get a trail home, put in the oats, put in chia seeds, put in your protein, like I've done this at home, there's no reason then to have any excuse to not make a protein, if you're on the go, if you're hungry. Have some frozen, like frozen banana, frozen fruit, berries or everything. I liked the concept of protein pulsing. I hadn't heard that before. So having that good breakfast, 30 or 40 grams of protein, are you then wanting to pulse for lunch? Are you wanting to pulse for dinner? Or is it even more nuanced than that? Are you having little protein snacks in between? And I also want to know where protein bars fit in. So two questions. Are you protein pulsing over three meals or over the whole day? - There's really, when I talk about rhythm on my slide, there's five bar charts. So I guess that shows the example of three meals and two snacks. But I always say, I'm not telling you to eat three meals and two snacks. There are some people who can just have three meals. I find most people benefit from three meals and one snack. And the reason I say that is because breakfast to lunch might be four to five hours, lunch to dinner tends to be a lot bigger. And so for that rhythm, which I've been talking about a lot, becomes really uneven. And so I find for most people, breakfast lunch a good afternoon snack, which does not just mean a musibar biscuits and apple, I'm basically talking about a mini meal here, same element, same protein, and then dinner. But that one's the kind of, you know, if you don't want a snack, we're talking kind of three meals. - Where I had to get organized in my snacks is when I travel. As that afternoon, I'm hungry, I'm tired. - You've been busy. - And I was just going to get something that's not as healthy. I find taking protein bars with me or taking nuts and only putting a few apricots. I have this little mix of mainly nuts and a few apricots. Then I'm setting myself up for success. So that was a little area I had to look at. I'm sure a lot of our audience will be similar. It's when you're traveling or you're tired, it's reporting season. You've just done a big propose or you've done a new rollout that afternoon snack. That's where it can go, a little bit downhill, can't it? - Totally. And most of us think we shouldn't be snacking. And I think it's really about the person and there's different types of snacking. You know, snacking kind of gets a bad label. It thinks it's convenient. It's ultra processed, it's crappy and it can be that. I call them snacks. But snacking, you know, high quality snacking with your protein, with your fiber, with your healthy fats, there is a real purpose to that. And often if you snack right in the afternoon, dinner will be smaller. Again, it's setting you up for sleep success. And so what you've said here is a great on the go option. Protein bars, look, protein is really important. Quality of protein is something we need to think about. And this is kind of a conversation, I think is only starting to come out around ultra processed foods and what we're putting in, our protein drinks and our protein bars. And I think the message here is not all protein is created equally. And I'm talking not like our way protein, versus way concentrate. I'm talking about the quality of the product, how processed it is. And then what that's doing to your gut health, to your intestinal permeability. - There's so many options. There's a Woolworth's last weekend in Irene. So I went there with Archie for his soccer. And he said, "David, can we go get some snacks?" And I said, "Yes, we'll get some snacks." And the protein section in Woolworth's now, it's freaking massive. It used to be like a couple of bars. It was almost a whole aisle. I look at comments and we buy the comments protein bars, but there's a big difference in sugar on those bars. They've got some low sugar options and they've got some that look and taste like. They've got a violet crumble option now. My gut feeling, Jess, is that's probably not going to be healthy as if it's got a violet crumble mixture in it. - Look, the ingredients list is just a great place to start, like compare the pear and even the number of rows is a quick scan. The amount of protein is a quick scan. I definitely have some brands that I just like and recommend. But you're exactly right. - Proteen bars. - Yeah, so Fodbords is a great brand. It was traditionally made as a protein bar for people with IBS. It's 15 grams, so it's not going to quite get you to your, you know, you're 20 to 40, but a few nuts and a couple of things can kind of bump you up. - Are they commercial? Do you have to order those online? - They're like Harris farm, they're in. They're not in woolly's or coals. I wish they were because it's such a great Australian brand as well, but you can order them direct. They are great, very tasty and very clean ingredients list. - One or two others. - Some of the like fiber boost, that's one which I've seen which is starting to be in like your IGA's and things. but on the drink front. Similarly, you want to go for something that's in the fridge as opposed to on the shelf. Because if it's on the shelf, they've whacked a whole heap of stuff in there. So on how that's staying. To put on the shelf without refrigeration. Let's move to food sequencing, protein first, veggies first, what's your theory? Yes, there's some cool science, there's like the science. This was around when I studied exercise for you. Really? Yeah, Dr. Paul Batman, giving a good shout out to Dr. Paul. We've had on the podcast a few times. Paul was talking about food sequencing. I'm going back, gosh, late '90s. Wow. Needs more airtime. Yeah. Because again, this is like how can we change what you're doing, upgrade what you're doing? So it's low friction but impact. And so with your food sequencing, if you even have the same meal, but you change the order in which you eat. So you eat your protein and vegetables first, carbohydrates last. It will splike your blood sugar levels up to 30% less. How do I have four poached eggs? Because I'm going to get more protein after talking to you today, avocado on the sides. Well, yeah. That you can choose. I know. I don't know. Because you know post-50 for men and women. We can't eat as much. Bread because the villa in our small intestine gets filed away and I've got a family history of celiac disease. So I don't have celiac disease, but I reckon I've got gluten intolerance. I'm gluten-tarded, Jess, like many people as they move through the decades. How do I have that meal and still enjoy that piece of beautiful sourdough? I mean, this is where it's all like you take your principles and what can you put in action. Maybe with an omelet. I feel like with an omelet, you can eat the omelet first and then the sourdough after. I actually don't have sourdough with omelet. I've got some weird quirks down there. But eggs I need sourdough. Yeah, I had three poached eggs this morning with a bit of avocado and they're all getting consumed at the same time. But I think where that really is helpful is lunch and dinner. Yeah, I was going to say so dinner. You're traditional Aussie meal, which again, as a comeback mum used to serve this in country in New South Wales, steak and three veg, so you'd have some steak, which was all grass fed back then. We didn't have any of these other rubbish. You'd have some vegetables and a bit of potato. So if you're doing that, you'd keep your potato, you'd keep your sweet potato for last. Yeah. And I think lunch for the corporate audience is the big opportunity. And it can be tricky if we're on the fly, if we're being reactive, if we're trying to squeeze lunch in because we've got a gap and it's two o'clock in the afternoon and potentially what we're grabbing. But a lot of options there, if we're thinking, you know, some of the great, like, Cali press and the fish bowl kind of options, there we can. Two of my favourite. Yeah, they go to. But they're easy to have the protein, have the veg and then have the base last. This is a nutrient consumption and blood sugars. Is that why you do that order? So you're having protein in veg than your carbs? Yeah. So that order, as opposed to, you know, carbohydrates first, yeah, it reduces the blood glucose level spike. Up to 30%. And again, there's this individual response, of course, but it's these little switch. That's a pretty easy thing, maybe without our eggs, which we all enjoy them together. But in that kind of fish bowl, you know, protein, corporate lunch, kind of environment. Fish bowl, you read the top first and then you read the bottom first thing. Yeah. They set it up. They set you up for food sequencing success. Hydration. Yeah. I like you talk about hydrating the CEO. Mmm. Yes, depending on the audience, you know, often it can be a room of CEOs. So then they're thinking what? But even if you are a CEO, the CEO of your body is your brain. And if you're not a CEO, the CEO of your body is still your brain. And so the reason I make that point is then to drive home that your brain is 73% water. And so when we're focusing on our energy and our focus and all of these factors, often hydration, which is such a low hanging fruit, is an easy switch. It's just about being proactive with it and setting up a habit, you know, not starting the day only with coffee and then thinking about water mid afternoon. There's a gap for some reason and you're just triggered. When I was a strength and conditioning coach in cricket, there was some research done. If a male or female goes out to center wicket and they're 4% dehydrated or more, it impacts hand-eye coordination. I've seen less. I've seen 1%. The data is now cognitive performance, 1%, physical performance, 2%. So in a game where a ball's coming at your head, 100 miles or 160 kilometers now in the men's game, you want to make sure you're hydrated from it. It's a safety factor. A decrease in cognition though, if you're a CEO or a founder or a line manager, that's going to be a big impact on your cognitive function. That's going to be a big impact on your emotional regulation. That's going to be a big impact on how you sharpen to your job. Why do we not put so much emphasis around that? What are we missing around hydration? It doesn't get. Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think it's kind of just like the forgotten about peace in the nutrition story. Because it's like drinking water. But we also don't talk about, well, every night people lose half a liter to a liter. So from breathing, depending on the weather, the conditions, et cetera. And so we're all already starting a little bit dehydrated. And then the decisions that you make then across your morning will then either make that worse or better. And I don't even know what the stat would be, but just from dealing with people, eight or nine out of 10 and not even thinking about water. They're not thinking about electrolytes or water. They're thinking about their three espressos and then getting on with their day. And again, that's feeding into that dip in the afternoon. But I guess the lens I also come at this from is very glamorous in the sports teams. I got the wonderful job of measuring hydration. You had the uremmeter or the pissometer at the top and cold? Yeah, exactly. So there was, you know, we in a cup before main training. And I got to use the refractometer and measure it. But even that, you know, again, 70% of the athletes and we would educate them and we would prime them on it. And they would know they're getting tested, 70% of them would be turning up dehydrated. And so then I think about the corporate world where they're not getting this education. They're not about to go into a 10-kilometer preseason training session. And so it is. It's this really overlooked opportunity. And so my recommendation there, maybe it becomes some of the listeners' domino habit. It's a water or a glass of electrolyte. First thing in the morning. So yeah, we're going to ask that. So water, rock salt, because there's a lot of the influencers talk about rock salt. Is that a myth? Yeah. Look, I mean, yes, a lot of people, depending on how active you are and how you eat, I do think the sodium message is a little bit outdated. Now, some people definitely need to be mindful of sodium if they've got cardiac or blood pressure issues, depending on what their lifestyle looks like. But for the majority of people, who are being a little bit conscious about what they eat, they're quite active in their sweating, there is actually a place for potentially adding more salt. And if you want to add some rock salt to your water, personally, I'd prefer to drink a nice glass of electrolytes from a, you know, a reputable company. Glass of water. Maybe some rock salt, if you're sweating heaps of electrolytes, before coffee. Yes. Way before coffee. Way before. And if that's too hard, at least with, you know, let's start somewhere. This is not going to be politically correct, but when I was at New South Wales correct, we had a pissometer at the SCG and I've seen this similar concept in mining. I think they call it a urinalysis now, but in the, the, the trough of the New South Wales cricket, we actually got color card and actually put the urine color because a lot of the boys were dehydrated and it wasn't landing. So we got the pissometer. God, it worked. Well, I can remember Dougie Bollinger coming up and Dougie was a real character. You go, amazing, amazing, I'm looking at yellow on the pissometer and it was, it was a really interesting conversation because it actually got him and awareness with, oh, that's the color. So I still say now to some of my very, very highly paid prestigious clients, check the color of your urine, like it really is a simple way. It should be like a very crisp lights of in your blank. And if it looks like a baroqueer, you do hydrate it. It's really simple, isn't it? Run your own internal pusomiter. Yeah. I think it's really overlooked and it's just, you know, that even goes for the weekends or the corporate lunches. And often they, if they're at difficult times and, you know, you're on the back foot and do we skip the meal or do we have the meal and I find a lot of people think, oh, no, I'm going out. So I'm just going to have something when I get there. And then that never happens. They're straight into the drinks and then they're on the back foot and then hydration isn't even thought about. Hey, I've got one more before we go. One more defence and working at the point of the end. What do they eat? Yes. Because you worked with special ops for seven years. Yeah. So I do, I guess, a bit of advising and speaking there and it's an interesting one. I think any group that the lesson I learnt particularly going into that environment is or reinforced, it always has to be customised to the person, you know, to the group to where they're at and that first experience I had walking into a group of commandos and going in or pro sport, this is all the things pro, you know, you can leverage and learn from I was a little bit to pro sport and it was met with a little bit like they don't have anything on us. You don't get it. So let's get context. Because when you go in, they're all jacked. Like men and women at that level. They all look similar. They're all around six footish. They're all lean, but muscular. There's an archetype. There's an absolute archetype, yeah. They literally look like calmer copies, most of them got shaved heads. So you go in there trying to flex a sport. Yeah, it was two sport focused and I had a few of the alpha alphas really kind of meet me and be like, you know, I think. I was talking about control the controllables because obviously like if they're on a mission or if they're on base There's only so much they can control and it really got met with a friction I'll be what you're talking about isn't relevant to us Then I had quite a few come up to me after and be like that's not the case But it just obviously had been met with she's not hearing us and that really was a hard and fast lesson I mean I've been there for seven years, so it was obviously Change what what did you do next time you come in? Did you go in there with glasses a library book and be all nerdy? Did you flip it? Ask more questions, you know even just language. I had like You know, I've got there everyone's got their their lingo even just Their banjos which they call their bacon and egg muffins and and it just learned a bit of army talk and some of the kind of internal stuff and really Weaved that in and again it didn't change what I was saying but the lens in which I was saying it and it's been Yeah, a completely different it's similar principles like similar principles protein policy. Yeah hydration The only one I use there more so than anything else and this is a new one I speak at their kind of high-performance Optimization summer and it was one of their Commando's from Canada and the fasting and with the work I do with the ADF It's it's quite a go in and run a few sessions and it's not at that really as deep of a level as as what would be You know what I'd love it to be and he challenged me on Metabolic flexibility and I said you are 100% correct if there was more time to go deeper And there was that opportunity that is definitely the conversation because there are times that you were not eating for three days You need to adapt to ketosis straight away You can't be consistently fueling and then your body is so far from what it typically does But you again from a hierarchy perspective That's not the thing you're going to go and lead with because on a day-to-day basis What is going to move the needle the most? Are a lot of these principles just really tailoring it to the group? Having also done some work and doing some work at that end not in nutrition I would assume that getting them to fast and getting them to do a two or three-day fast And to have that experience when they're not under pressure would front load those skills Because if you go on a mission and you're fasting for three days and you get angry rather than focused That's going to be a really long three days So do you train them for that in that non-pressurized environment so then they get used to it? Yeah, yeah, and then it's also then but when you when you can control it These are what we're trying to do and I go a lot deeper with supplements So supplements in both the sport and that that environment Compared to I never stand up in a group of corporates like we have answer questions And we talk about a couple, but I'm not running a full session or workshop on All night are there three that our broad range of listeners two or three that everyone should be taking? Yes, look you know the creatine thing is real definitely you know five to ten grams a day baseline dose Creatine monohydrate don't do the gummies. We don't know really the amount that's in them Men women from a cognitive standpoint which This doesn't surprise me, you know, you probably know this in sport We've been using creatine from a concussion protocol perspective for well first world started to get jacked So yes, yes, and working in AFL and playing footy myself a year ago when I finished running and wanted to still do sport And I'll go and chase an AFL ball around I put on 10 kilos in like seven or eight months and it was crazy and and lifting If you are at this is happened Yeah, with quite a few athletes if they're at that, you know, men kind of the hormone profile up to 22 And so if you're in that window you've got a really big training stimulus and you can't creatine You can really gain a lot of weight which can also Then be fearful for some people because if it's a running sport. It's like you down But anyway creatine from a cognitive standpoint a high quality omega-3 definitely you know depending on the person I'm looking at one to two grams of EPA and DHA a day. So they're the different fractions of all the makeup of your omega-3 fatty acids Look probably a magnesium three and eight or by glycinate from a recovery stress sleep perspective And we tend to be a little bit deficient in the diet as well So three to three soluble magnesium love it I'd like to finish with the flip Is there a question in preparation for today? You thought he's gonna ask and I haven't asked or the flip Is there a question you'd like to ask me? Yeah, I mean obviously I respect the work you've done and do so much and and you know You're well ahead of me and in kind of your journey and the work you do in the the corporate space So I think what I'm interested in is What do you think is the biggest opportunity that the corporates can learn from sport and not just what it is But what is that one behavior that if you wish they would do? What would it be? Oh That's a good one I'm going to give you my View first and then I'll buy some time for the one behavior. I don't know whether there's one Sport like you work with athletes that play for 80 minutes It's 60 minutes and we watch that and we go oh wow her life his life is glamorous But it's not and I say this a lot recently If you want to be a high performer in the corporate world your life is going to be 3M So it's going to be maniacal. It's going to be monotonous. It's going to be mechanical Are you prepared to really be disciplined? Are you going to do everything that Jess is today and do it all the time? Maybe miss one or two times but do it when you're at home. Are you going to do it when you travel? Are you going to be maniacal? Are you going to be mechanical? Are you going to be monotonous? So look at some of the athletes I work with who they play on the global stage or when they box or whatever they do and everyone goes Oh, they're life is glamorous. No, it's not. I've got some of my athletes Jess That will say I'll meet you on Saturday morning. I know where and I know what time because I know what coffee shop They'll be at I know which suburb that's when you know it's maniacal. It's monotonous. It's mechanical So one of the biggest lessons I think we can learn from sport into the world of corporate performance Is you're going to do the hard stuff because it's easy to tap out and and and being average is easy It being different rising above everybody else It's freaking hard. The second thing I'd give on that and this is part of my arc and learning is To be sustainable Look at why you're doing it other than just the trifus and the accolades and the kudos and the success and and that to me It's been the rocket fuel so to get that that goods life Power money success with the good life pleasure meeting and purpose. So I don't think there's one thing But if there's one umbrella frame go deep on your purpose Because when you know what your purpose is It's like a buffer when you know what your purpose is. It's also a GPS tracker to your vision And when you know what your purpose is you're really robust and you don't wobble as much So that's something that I've found since clearly articulating my purpose and if anyone wants to know on this podcast Just go to our website performance intelligence.com put purpose in underneath the podcast area We've done a lot of conversations on purpose. So for me that was a game changer But takes three or four months. I thought I could do the purpose upgrade of the 2 p.m. workshop and ever by 230 It takes three or four months and you're constantly coming back. So they'll be the two themes To be a high performer. It's not sexy. It looks sexy the outcome the process. It's it's freaking boring You'd say that you know with the athletes you work with They're rigorous. They're disciplined. They're really structured. I think also you've got to have a bit of funnel on the way I like the oxymoron plan spontaneity. So every now and then you've got to shake it up And then I think purpose really helps clearly articulating purpose. I felt a big part of yours today is around connection I've felt a big part of yours when you're talking about your milley and I could see you light up Like if you watch this back on youtube when you talk about her It's a little bit of a different look as you know that that feeling It's not either or it's and so how do you use that feeling to fuel you for everything else and I think I've learned to do that a lot better in the last seven or eight years I'm so glad as well because I actually never wanted to be a mom It never was something it was a very pleasant very fortunate You know surprised with my partner and I just never had that maternal And I'm so glad that this was on my bingo card because it has completely changed The game and the narratives I had around you know It's one all the other like you can definitely be both. It doesn't change you and It's definitely rounded me out a lot more. Did you not want to be a mom or had you not taken a pause? Because you were stuck on that hedonistic treadmill about success and in sporting teams They didn't maybe not had enough time to sit still and ponder Mm probably a little bit of both. Yeah, and just What I thought it would be and what the sacrifice would mean and I really enjoyed my life And I enjoyed having all the time in the world and and I wasn't sure that trade-off You know and the trade-off has been and way better than anything. I've learned so much from my kids so much Turning a sporting team around give me three years of budget a coach That's aligned a couple of leaders and CEO and board sponsorship you can you can transform a sporting team in three years You know the symbol if you're working an organization corporate two or three years you can really transform it Can I get my young four-year-old to put on pants before she goes out god? Really complicated. I learned so much from my kids For people who want to connect with you book you read your book Where's the best place to find you Jessica Spenlove.com. I'm very active on LinkedIn and Instagram But yeah website or LinkedIn My podcast is stay at the top because it's not about reaching the top. It's about staying there And my book is for the long run. Yes, please reach out. I'm not too difficult to find. It's not Jessica Smith You know it's Jessica Spenlove, so not too many of those. I've really enjoyed today. I've really enjoyed two parts of it, seeing the depth and the rigour, but seeing the personal side of it. Now, and I think you're getting a really nice blending of the two. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to reconnect again and sit here and do this. We'll have to do it the other way around next time. Yeah, let's put it put me in the seat and I'll get nervous and think what you're going to ask me. Thank you, Jess. Thank you, Andrew. Quick one before you go, think of one person on your team. You've stopped being fully honest with. Maybe it's your boss or maybe it's the person that reports to you. There's a version of that conversation you've had in your head a dozen times and never had it out loud. Well next week, Tim Duggan explains what that's actually costing you. Not in feelings, but in decisions that get me badly because nobody said a thing. Tim avoided conflict for decades. He built a media company to 65 staff and then sold it, but he still couldn't even walk into a hard conversation without rehearsing it first. So he went and did the work. He talked to his psychologists and negotiators, hostage mediators, the people who do this for a living, and what he came back with is that bravery almost has nothing to do with it. Handling conflict well is a skill. A skill that can be talked and trained, and the reason yours hasn't improved is that nobody ever taught you how. This one changed how I'll run my next difficult conversation, so make sure you don't miss it either. Next week only on performance intelligence. Questions like these are exactly why we started this podcast and shout out to the listeners. If you're enjoying these conversations, don't forget we've got over 100+ episodes that you can dive into after this one. And while you're there, leave a quick rating or review in your app and that really helps us get these conversations to more people. Thank you for listening to this week's episode.