Speaker 1What do you think it did for you?
Speaker 2Yeah, that's a good question. I think first it was a break from myself. Like the constant pressure I put on myself to keep it together, to be a certain person. That perfectionism was a real big part of my anxiety and depression. And it made me feel less uncomfortable in my own skin. And it felt like this off switch. Like I remember that feeling like I could just flick a switch and just like not be this version of myself anymore. And like, what a relief. Like to not have to be in my body and with my thoughts anymore. It was like something I always wanted.
Speaker 1Hi there. Welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud podcast. The show where we get real about mental health and addiction. I'm so glad you're here. If you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or alcohol, please reach out for help. Send me a message on all social media platforms at Recovering Out Loud pod or by email at Recovering Out Loud pod at gmail.com. You are no longer alone. Like filming yourself. It's like very uncomfortable at first.
Speaker 2Well, I have a journalism background. Oh, so I have some training, but before I had that, yeah, I was incredibly nervous and I still, I still have moments where I'm like, I don't, I'm just going to write something today. I don't want to be seen. I don't want to be perceived online. Yeah.
Speaker 1So do you script out your videos before you film them or you just free ball, free, free base, free base it.
Speaker 2I just free base it.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. I just fucking go for it. Welcome.
Speaker 1Welcome to Recovering Out Loud. We talk about crack. I love it. So you are a, you're becoming a psychotherapist or you're already a psychotherapist?
Speaker 3Psychotherapist. You are. Yeah.
Speaker 1So you're registered psychotherapist. Fucking cool. Awesome. Yeah. I love having people on both sides. You're in recovery and you are helping other people through the recovery. Let's do this. My wife yelled at me because she says I don't introduce people enough. She's like, I don't know who the fuck I'm listening to. You start talking about their story. And their childhood and they're like, I don't even know who it is. I'm like, well, if you read the description of the episode.
Speaker 2It's like you don't care about me. It's her fault.
Speaker 1Exactly. Why don't you introduce yourself, how you came into recovery and yeah, let's start with that.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2I'm Errol McCaffrey and I've been sober for three years, just a little over three years. Tried many times. This time seems to be sticking one day at a time. I'm also a psychotherapist. I work with people in recovery primarily. It wasn't my intention, but that's, those are the people that come to me, people that are looking to get sober and that have relationship challenges. So yeah, that's kind of my jam right now. I'm working a lot with women that are craving sobriety. So that's like kind of the niche I'm finding myself in. But yeah.
Speaker 1And how do they find you?
Speaker 2Instagram.
Speaker 1Yeah. It's a great, uh, it's a great gate gateway funnel. Um, I'm trying to do that too. Working with addicts is so hard though. Like, we never show up. You know what I mean? No, it's, it's, it's funny. Like I, every time I get like upset with, uh, somebody because whatever, they are so rearing to get sober and then they, you know, disappear for a bit. I have to remind myself. I'm like, dude, that was you like so many times. Right. And I work at a rehab now where I get people into rehab and it's frustrating sometimes because you know that they could be on the path to healing the better life. And, uh, like I'm dealing with this. There's one guy and I thought back to the last time I went into rehab, it took me probably two months before I like signed up before I actually got into the bed. Right. So it's like, stop it.
Speaker 2Yeah. It's so hard. That's something that I'm working with constantly with people is their resistance and resistance. Even like getting on a call to talk about it. Like it takes so much courage for somebody to go, okay, I have a problem. I want to do something about it and I can be in frustration at moments for sure. Like. I just, I know you could do it. I see this, you know, better future for you. And just like you, I know exactly what it's like to want something better for yourself, but you're stuck somewhere and you're not done yet. You haven't felt enough pain yet. You're not desperate enough yet.
Speaker 1That's the big one.
Speaker 2So who am I to say that you're ready if you're not?
Speaker 1Yeah. I might be holding you back from another bottom. Right. Yeah. That's the big one. Right. Being ready, willing and ready. Um, and everybody's different. Right. Like we have a lot of people that are willing and ready. We have a lot more suffering to go almost all the time, uh, if we're still alive. Right. Yeah. You know, rock bottom is when you stop digging. So, but yeah, it's like, who, I like that. Who am I to say that you're done? You might not be done. You know, there's some more experiments to do, as I always say, uh, some more research to do. More controlled drinking. Yeah. Yeah. Try some more controlled drinking. Yeah. How did you, so, um, can you walk us through your childhood and maybe how you found alcohol and what it did for you?
Speaker 2Yeah. So alcohol is a big part of my, my family story. Um, addiction was, it's really present in my family. Um, like alcoholics going back and, you know, through the family lines for generations and, uh, grew up with a dad who was in active addiction for basically my whole life. He, he got sober once or twice for brief periods of time. Um, but he, uh, he really struggled with alcoholism and mental illness. So I grew up watching that and, you know, my mom was in and still is in Al-Anon. So she's got a really good program and early on was able to explain to my sisters and I like, this is a sick person. This is a disease. You know, it's, it's not you, it's not your fault. And that helped a lot. I'm incredibly grateful for that. And at the same time, it doesn't undo the, um, trauma of watching somebody you love hurt themselves. It's constantly and not be there for you, not show up for you in the way that you need them to. So that was my introduction to alcohol in childhood. And, um, my dad passed away when I was 18. Was it 18? Yeah. So he had, I'm going serious, deep, dark right away, but he, he had, um, he got a cancer that was the doctor said caused by his drinking and it was fatal and he drank till the end. So that was like the type of alcoholic I saw growing up. And I was like, well, I'm just never going to be an alcoholic. I'm never going to have any issues with it. So my first addiction was like perfectionism, high achieving, really focused on school. Then I got addicted to body image and food stuff. Big part of my story, always trying to find a way to fix myself. Um, I didn't come into my own drinking until. After my dad died. So I wasn't, I didn't, wasn't a big drinker in high school. It was like, I think he, he started getting sick and then, then I was experimenting with it a bit. And then as soon as he died, I just went for it. And, um, I dropped out of university. I had the scholarship. I was like the golden child, you know, trying to live up to that. And I just couldn't do it. So I took a year off school and worked at a bar. An Irish bar.
Speaker 1Like a good alcoholic.
Speaker 2I was like, let me just do some training. I just want to get better at this thing. So a perfect place to, you know, learn how to drink. And that was, yeah, I think that was really the beginning of it for me. And it just like, like, I don't even know where to stop talking about this. Cause it just went on forever. It just went on forever and it got worse and worse. And it was tricky in university because it seemed it was normal, quote unquote, normal to binge drink. So it only really became clear to me that it was a problem when I got out of university. I graduated and I was like, Oh, not everybody's drinking like that anymore, but I don't want to stop. Yeah.
Speaker 1What do you think it did for you?
Speaker 2Yeah. That's a good question. I think first it was a break from myself, like the constant pressure I put on myself to keep it together, to be assertive. I was like, I don't want to be a burden person. Um, that perfectionism was a real big part of my anxiety and depression and it made me feel less uncomfortable in my own skin. And it felt like this off switch. Like I remember that feeling like I could just flick a switch and just like not be this version of myself anymore. And like, what a relief.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2Like to not have to be in my body. And with my thoughts anymore, it was like something I always wanted.
Speaker 1That's the big word too, is, is relief, right? Like this, uh, volume knob on my head. Um, and it works until it doesn't, right? It's like, I was reading in one of the just for today's the other day, it was beautiful. It said, um, you know, alcohol and drugs for me, mainly drugs allowed me to be who I wanted when I wanted and feel what I wanted when I wanted until. It be it until it controlled me, right? Like you get to a point where it stops. kind of achieving that goal and then the more you do the worse it gets to your your the thoughts get worse and louder and then the volume goes to like 14 right and then you get that relief from maybe like for in my case like a few minutes at a time and then you just chase that yeah until the gates
Speaker 2of hell it's it's insanity like i spent so much of my life trying to like thinking i was gonna feel a certain way when i would drink and it would just like the feeling never came it was it's just this really weird insane behavior to be like and this time it's gonna work yeah and it never works it just ends up near the end at least i could not escape my my awareness of my problem or my thoughts no matter how much i drank i drank right so it's just like it it works for a little bit
Speaker 1and then it becomes its own problem yeah i love the the three phases it's like fun fun with problems and then just problems after right as you're talking there i'm thinking about the hand on the stove metaphor in one of the recovery literatures where it's like this time it's not gonna burn me right maybe if i come at it from this angle right it won't burn me the same and
Speaker 2it's like every time just fuck ow ow ow yeah why can't i stop doing this so that leads me into my
Speaker 1next question how did you was what was the moment where you were like this time you know i've had enough this is i can't do this anymore
Speaker 2i had a couple of moments i had a couple of bottoms um i think one of the first ones was i think it was 2017 it was like yeah it would have been before the pandemic i had gone through like a breakup of 10 years i was living i had roommates that i didn't really know but i was living on my own essentially for the first time and i started adding other substances to the picture and then i was not only drinking but i was also drinking and i was like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die it's going out into after hours clubs and like you know leaving 7 a.m or 9 a.m the next day and like just it just got darker really fast and i was doing more high risk stuff and really afraid of like what i was capable of doing and like yeah just afraid i was like i'm gonna die i think probably and all the while trying to hold down my job as a yoga teacher so think about that split person like mindfulness wellness the body's a temple doing some lines in the bathroom namaste just like you know just it was just great it got crazy i had a seizure at one point staying up really late so it was just like okay i i think i'm gonna die so i think i should do something and at that point i took myself to treatment to rehab i i reached out to a women's uh rehab and started doing some outpatient work went to rehab for a month and it was amazing the like the type a and me was like perfect give me structure i will be the best sober person you've
Speaker 1ever met i'll be the star yeah i'm gonna get a plus in rehab yeah i'll be the star i'm gonna
Speaker 2vacuum the floor i'll do it perfectly and so i was like there you know i really wanted to want to get sober for real i wasn't ready i kind of knew it too i was like this is a nice break for me and came out within three months i was back out and then i didn't get sober again for five years which is where i am now this time around it was very different it was like i was no longer using other substances it was just drinking i was in a relationship that was with a person that was very wealthy and had access to a lot of things and so now my drinking looked more refined and classy you know fancy wines i was like okay this is acceptable now and that actually over time felt more dangerous i'm like oh i could do this forever like blackout every once in a while puke on someone's really expensive carpet but like whatever forgive me they probably do it too and so that that was a it got worse in the pandemic for me it was a slow i just can't explain it other than like another moment of i'm going to die this way i can't live like this this thing owns me um so that time i just i had like a rip-roaring night i was blackout drunk the next day it was in august three years ago i was like i can't do this anymore i can't explain it to you it just was that not like i want to say this but i meant it i was like i literally am so exhausted of fighting this thing and pretending it's not a treatment for this thing and i'm like it's okay yeah actually i can drink normally now it's like so it was yeah it was a it was a really a spiritual moment like i remember that night crying in the shower just being like i can't i literally can't do this anymore and the relief of that and then my world fell apart for a little bit there was another breakup and i moved back home with mom and but there was this fire in me that was like yes this is supposed to happen i need i need to rise from the ashes and it was like i needed to be so desperate and ready to start over yeah with that partner that you had was
Speaker 1did he start start to notice like things and um were you hiding it like how did what did that look
Speaker 2like there was a lot of like drinking together um i always took it a step further and it was kind of like i had really controlled the narrative so i have been to treatment but again like it's fine you don't have to worry about me and i did i did a pretty good job of like managing it for a while but every now and then i would just get wasted like blackout drunk and he'd be upset with me and embarrassed of what i did or said in public and there were some conversations about that but um it really i didn't know what to do and i didn't know what to do and i didn't know didn't get an ultimatum like there was no you need to stop doing this or else it really came from me and and then it was a conversation around well i don't want my lifestyle to change and i was like i get it but i have to do this so you can keep doing your thing and living the way that you're living but
Speaker 1i can't be around alcohol anymore in this way yeah did you go back to treatment again
Speaker 2or you just i i invested in a in aa like found a home group actually gave it a go
Speaker 1yeah yeah i i think about this question a lot because i post a lot of stuff about how to get sober and sometimes i make it seem too i mean at least in my mind too simple but it really is simple right like because i always i always try to think about the people that don't do 12-step right right my experience was 12-step it still is um i have to because it just i just like it and i've tried a lot of other things and it just works for me but there's a lot a large group of people out there that are very 12-step uh defiant and you know maybe even toward the hate side of things whether it be the god argument which if you're arguing about the god thing that just tells me you haven't you haven't done enough work in the program to realize that it's not about religion at all right um and people usually hate things they don't understand right i've i've come to to realize but it's like so you put that aside how does one get sober right i've been thinking about it a lot and i mean if you were to ask me that right now like my simple simple answer is i found someone that was sober a decent amount of time that seemed happy every time i saw them had that you know forget the things right the the a lot of them the people they do get the things right the car the job right the relationship yeah um you put that aside and just take that all away and it's just that like that smile on their face that joy that sparkle in the eye that you i can see it in your eye now right and every time i sit down with people i always notice it it's funny like because for a long time that sparkle was gone in my eye and i remember seeing the the alumni come into my treatment center this last time the first thing i noticed every single time was just like fuck man like what that guy has something what is that right just curiosity like and this time i knew what it was right um but yeah for me it's like i found someone that that was more sober and i fucking asked them what they did and then i did it it's really three simple steps but if you don't go to 12 step i don't know like what do you get people that are against the 12 step and what do you like some of your clients yeah i mean here's the thing like
Speaker 212 step programs are wonderful they're not for everybody for a variety of reasons i've always been a fan of 12 step programs and i've always been a fan of 12 step programs and i've always been somebody that's like quite curious and i'm going to take what lands and kind of like not pick apart anything else but when it comes to working with people there's a lot of resistance to 12 step programs because um they think it's culty or uh super religious and they've seen like movies or shows you know that have those scenes in it and they think this is like totally not for me so there's a lot of resistance to it when people go to 12 step programs and they're like oh my god go and they come back, they always report like, yeah, it was a bit awkward. And I don't really like that they use that God word, but I also felt really supported and less ashamed. I'm like, great. So do you want to feel more like that? Maybe we should keep, maybe we should keep going. Yeah. Um, either way, take away what the program or the resource is. I know for sure we all need community in recovery. We all need spaces where we can tell the truth and we need some kind of connection to something bigger than ourselves. Yeah.
Speaker 1And, and that can be anything, right? It could be a group of people. It could be a great outdoors. Like I love, you know, I love hearing that said group of drunks, great outdoors, good orderly direction, right? Just living according to spiritual principles, honesty, the biggest one by far. I can sit here and honestly tell you every single time I relapsed, number one was not being practiced. Some level of, uh, deception lies to myself and to other people, right? I had this sort of secret that I shared about. And, uh, and I wasn't telling people the full truth, right?
Speaker 2So it was such a slippery slope.
Speaker 1Yeah. It starts with one lie and then it, uh, caroms into something completely different. You know, um, I'm interested in the body image thing because I struggle with that too. Um, how did you come to a place where that was more manageable? Would you say?
Speaker 2I like that question. Not like, how did you heal from it? It's like, it's ongoing. I'm going, I have such a different relationship to my body today. Like so much more compassion and gratitude. Like the older I get, I'm 36 now, I'll be 37 next birthday. And it's like, I'm like, yeah, this body's amazing. It's been through some shit, you know, like I'm still alive. My liver's still there, my heart's still beating. So I have such a positive relationship with it. Most of the time I still struggle with body image and things like that. Um, what did I do to get more, to make more peace with my body? A lot of therapy, a lot of trauma recovery work really because of, you know, early childhood experiences that, that made me want to separate from my body. So exploring why, why that feels so good for me to dissociate. Why does it feel so good for me to be out of my body? How can I learn to come back into my body? And that's been like an indirect way of healing that relationship. Cause it's not about like, how do I feel good in my clothes? Or how do I change my shape or what I'm eating? It's like, how do I feel at home in myself? So that other stuff doesn't really matter as much. So a lot of therapy, um, yoga is big for me, you know, as a practice that like allows me to be really mindful and grateful. Um, and I also like, maybe I want to have kids one day and I do not want to pass this on. So I want to like change the way that I'm talking about these things, the narrative I have in my head and what I say out loud, because I know that can be internalized. If I'm talking this way about my body, that's what they hear. And they think that's normal. You should hate your body too. So I know that's like kind of a all over the place answer, but, um, sobriety has been huge for working through a lot of that stuff too. Because I just, um, it doesn't matter to me as much as it did before. I'm so much more connected to my purpose, you know, and to my higher power and to other people. Like, even if I have a bad body image day or some thoughts that aren't helpful, like it doesn't hold as much weight as it used to. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1Yeah, I can relate to that totally. Um, the thoughts still come up, right. Uh, for me. It's like, you ate too much last night, you're getting fat. Uh, you didn't go to the gym as much as you used to. Right. Um, and they, yeah, they don't take up that much bandwidth, mental bandwidth in my head where it's like, when they come up, they're more fleeting than they were before. But yeah, it took some work in recovery and being sober. And I think the biggest thing for me was just like you said, sharing about it, right. Because it just seems so much more like it loses its power, but it just, it sounds. So stupid to say out loud, but, and that's a good thing for me at least, where it's like, one, you're not fat, right. Two, like it, it, it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't matter because you can't, you can't change it right now anyways. Right. So, I mean, this idea of like just being grateful and, um, that I can even walk. Right. And that, yeah, to your point, like I went to the hospital, um, when I was in rehab, cause I thought I was having a heart attack. It was sitting down in one of the classes. Yeah. And I felt this pressure on my chest for like an hour straight. And I went to the hospital and I'll never forget this in the ambulance. I, the thoughts were going through my mind. I pictured my future. My wife was helping me up the stairs. Like all these things I was like, I fucked up my heart now, like because of all the cocaine I've done. Right. And, um, they did the ECG, they did everything and it ended up being fine. Right. It ended up all working out and I just had some sort of panic attack or something. But like, I think that was a moment that I needed to have where it was like, yeah, dude, like this could be a lot. Worse. Right. Your lungs are okay. The amount of cigarettes you smoke, you know, um, your heart is okay. And, uh, but that's not permanent. Right. If you go back out there. Yeah. To what you said, like, I'm not going to make it, you know,
Speaker 2There's, there's, there's so much to gratitude and it sounds flowery as like something you can practice if you want to heal some of these wounds, it's huge. And there's also something to checking in with yourself when you, when we're having these thoughts and we're like sliding back into those old sort of patterns to recognize that it's also an addictive thought loop. It's also an addiction, like body image, eating disorders, all of that stuff is compulsive. It's like a mental illness, you know? So not to put a heavy label on it, just to acknowledge, oh, I'm in my addiction. And when am I? When I'm in any kind of addictive behavior, I'm reaching out to soothe myself in some way. So like, what is happening inside of me right now that it feels better to obsess about food than to sit like, what am I actually experiencing? Oh, I'm really anxious about this thing coming up. I'm going to try to deal with that anxiety through restricting what I eat, working out a little bit more, you know? So it's like, there's an emotional component to all of the addictive behaviors and thoughts that we have. And it's like, what's happening right now?
Speaker 1Yeah. And it's so much harder to just sit with it, right? I think there's a big difference too, between sitting in it and sitting with it, where it's like acknowledging, like you said, I like the, the RAIN practice. I don't know if you know, yeah, I'm going to screw it up, but recognize, acknowledge, allow, allow, recognize, allow, um, how would you just call it?
Speaker 2Investigate.
Speaker 1Investigate and nurture, right? So you're recognizing the thought, um, you're allowing it to come in and not, you know, push it out with food or whatever, whatever said, um, addiction is. You're investigating what's this about, why am I doing this? And then you're nurturing, um, for me, nurturing, sometimes it's like actually, you know, just kind of feeling my body and hugging myself. And then other times it's, uh, one of my favorite things to do is just like, you're doing that thing again, buddy. Like just, you know, just laugh at it, right? Like Anthony, you're doing that thing again. You're trying to escape pain, you know, this is what you do, right? Um, I'm interested in the dissociation thing. Is that, is that what you mean by dissociation? Yeah. Dissociation from your body, like looking for outside things.
Speaker 2I mean, there's, there's a disconnect that can happen when we're looking for outside things. I think dissociation, the way that I'm, I mean, it is like literally leaving my body. Like I first started doing that when I was a kid, you know, people say like I was, I had an out of body experience. So, I mean, not disconnecting from myself. I mean, literally not feeling like I'm in my body. I'm watching my body. I'm watching myself. And I had those experiences early on. Cause I used to get panic attacks as a kid. So I'd be like, nothing's real. I'm not here. And I didn't understand at the time, but it, it was actually a coping mechanism. It's like, I didn't feel comfortable and safe in the present moment. So it felt a lot better to just be, I'm out now. I'm like living in fantasy land. I'm not in touch with what's happening in my body. And when we drink or when we get to a certain level of intoxication, we dissociate. I don't know what's happening in my feet. What's going on in my gut. I'm not connected to my heart. I'm completely flooded and checked out. So it's like a disconnection from the present moment, a disconnection from your body, and it can feel great when you don't want to be in reality.
Speaker 1Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. I don't, I think maybe a lot of us do that and don't even realize we're doing it. Oh yeah. Um, as you're talking about it, I'm just picturing like floating up above my body, but it's not that dramatic. Yeah. It might not feel like. Yeah. Um. You talked a little bit about spirituality. Do you want to, can you describe maybe a little bit more what faith and spirituality means to you and why it's important to stay sober, why it's important for your recovery?
Speaker 2I think I'm not, I'm not a religious person, so I don't go to church. I mean, 12 step is as close to church as I go. Um, but I've always had this like little feeling in my soul that. There's something greater at work here. Like I'm supposed to do something with my life and there's a reason that all we all exist and that we're in each other's lives, like a feeling of being part of. part of something, which was hard, which was a hard feeling to connect to when I was in my active addiction because I felt very isolated, like very alone. I was separated from what I believe is like source. I was really in my own pain, separated from other people, in my shame, not part of any community. So I just believe I just believe that addiction is a, it's an emotional problem. You know, there's emotional, mental, physical components to it, but primarily it's a spiritual problem. It's like, I, I don't have a purpose. I don't know why I'm here. I'm empty inside. Nothing I do or consume is enough to make me feel okay. And no thing can fill that void. No amount of food, booze, drugs, money, love, sex. It is never enough. The only way that I've ever been able to feel whole or fill that void is through a connection to a higher power. And that feels like, I have a friend up there that I just talk to every day. I'm like, what should I do today? Put me in the right place, make me useful. And so I feel led and like life is magical because it all just feels like purposeful. And how do you move through something like addiction without something that powerful? I don't know.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. You can't in my experience. Right. Um, yeah, I, I mean, it's comforting just listening to you talk about it because everyone describes it a little bit differently, but it's like the same, same principle of like, I don't know the answer. I don't need to know the answer, but I trust that somebody, some thing has the best intentions. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's like, I don't need to know the answer, but I trust that somebody, some thing has the best intention for me at the end of the day. Right. And it, it makes trauma. It makes resistance. It makes, um, horrible situations seem like they, they need to be there almost. And there's a purpose for it. Um, I don't understand it yet, but that's because I'm in the middle of the story, right? I'm not, every story has a beginning, middle and end, and I'm in the middle right now. And although it feels like everyone's against me and the nothing's going my way and my financial problems are still kicking from all the stupid hotels that I stayed at. Right. Yeah. There's a reason because I need to learn this lesson because down the road, I'm going to be better with my money. Right.
Speaker 2100%. Like we are constantly humbled. And if we're walking a spiritual path, we can see that and we don't have to be happy about that, but we can go, right. There's a reason that I'm learning this lesson again. Thank you. Um, if we don't have any spirituality, it can feel, we can feel very victimized by the world and like nihilistic, almost like what is the point? Everything's just suffering. And it's like the longer in my experience, the longer I live, the more I see the purpose of everything that I've experienced. Like I should have died so many times I want, I wanted to die. I was in situations where I could have died and I didn't. And like, since I got sober, I've been able to help so many people. That's not a coincidence. Like I was kept alive to do something. That's my, that's my thought around it.
Speaker 1Yeah. I know. I agree. I agree. We have a unique purpose. Right. And somewhere in the literature, it says something about all those, all those drunks will all those, like, you know, those drinking experience and escapades and terrible times will serve purpose to help someone else. One day, right. Everything, nothing happens in God's world by mistake.
Speaker 2That's my favorite line.
Speaker 1Yeah. It's true. There's a purpose for everything. Right. Yeah. So, so what is your favorite modality of therapy against addiction, CBT, DBT? Like, what do you think is the most effective for us addicts to practice, I guess?
Speaker 2Well, there's not one approach that I lean on. Well, I guess I will say across the board, something I do with every client that's experiencing addiction is called a motivational interviewing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You heard that term? Am I, yeah. Am I. So for people that don't know, it's helping somebody connect to their intrinsic, their internal desire to get sober or recover, because it's not, no one's ever gonna move forward just because people are telling them, hey, you should really quit. Like I, or even giving you ultimatums. I really need you to quit. Otherwise I'm gonna leave, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's not what, what's been proven to help somebody create long lasting behavioral change. That only happens when the person inside them, inside themselves sees the costs of their behavior, sees the potential benefits of change, and they go for it. They're motivated. So motivational interviewing is like, yeah, tell me about what you've lost because of your addiction. What will you continue to lose? What would you have to gain if you got sober? You start to build awareness around it. You're not saying like, look at all this shit you're creating for yourself. You're allowing them to identify why, why this matters. So that's something I do with it. Every person. But then when it comes to, you know, other interventions, it really depends on where they're at in their recovery process. Like, can they be in their body at all? Or are they still using so much that they don't have the capacity to do something like mindfulness that might help, help them, like learn some new coping skills. You know, I always want to bring that in. It really depends on the person, but I don't rely on CBT. DBT, like as a across the board kind of intervention, it really depends on the person.
Speaker 1Yeah. But I mean, yeah, it's like, I remember when I went to my first rehab, I've been to three, I went to my first one and they had us do this activity where we had to write out the cost of our addiction, like the literal cost. And, uh, I had, I'd never, you know, you talked about dropping out of school. I did that three or four times in addiction. I never equated, I never connected the dots, even though I knew my life was a mess. I didn't. Yeah. You that's because you were smoking weed every night, right. And doing Coke on the weekends. Uh, and it wasn't, you know, how are you? How's I, I never understand when people finish school through their drinking careers. Like I never, it blows my mind. It's like you hear someone get up and they're like, yeah, I got a PhD while I was drinking every night. It's like, what? Like, holy, you know, I wasn't able to show up at all. Yeah. Right. So that was a cool exercise to kind of go through. Cause it's like, you don't just, you know, you think about when I ask someone, you know, what's the cost of your addiction? It's like, well, you know, bars. So I spent some money at the bars and this and that. What about the lawyer fees and the crashed cars and the car repairs, the insurance premiums going up. Yes. And also like the cost of
Speaker 2there's all of that. That's kind of almost easier to quantify because you can put a number on it. You can tally it up, but like the cost of watching your future slip away from you. Something that I, I was cognizant of a lot. And you're like, well, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. Near the end was like, I'm just like, not going to be the person I want to be ever, ever. Yeah. Like how awful is it to know every day that I'm standing in my own way? Like I'm actively preventing that from happening. Like that's, there's so much shame there. There's so much shame and frustration. It's like, that's a huge cost. I can't be happy if I do this. I literally just won't have a good life. Great.
Speaker 1Yeah. That should be enough. Right. But it's not, no, it's not, it's not because it's easy. It's easier sometimes to just easier, softer ways to just do this line and move on with my day.
Speaker 2Yeah. I'll start tomorrow. I'll quit tomorrow.
Speaker 1Yeah. Monday is day one. Potential is the word I'm thinking of when you're talking about happiness, right? It's like this functional alcoholic drives me crazy. That term, what could you be doing? Could you be the prime minister of Canada? You don't know because you're, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2Could you discover like a cure for cancer? Probably.
Speaker 1You don't know, right? Because what is, you know, I'm showing up to work every day. Okay. But are you there? What's happening when you go into work? Right. Cause I remember when I was going into work, even if I wasn't actively hired drunk at work, uh, which a lot of the time I was, you know, the ladder, um, people, you know, you're hung over and you're not living up to your potential. Right. And people notice that stuff. I'm starting to realize, oh yeah, we think we're hiding it from everybody.
Speaker 3Oh yeah.
Speaker 1You know, um, what are your sort of, what are your daily essentials for recovery?
Speaker 2Hmm. Prayer and meditation. Um, every morning. It's very rare that I miss that. And it's not like I have to do this or I'll relapse, but it brings me so much peace. I'll meditate for like five minutes. I do some prayer, you know, suggested by the big book. I'll do some prayer around that. Essentially I'm, I'm meditating, I'm clearing my mind. And then I'm praying to my higher power and saying, just make me useful. Like remove all the things inside of me. That prevent me from being useful to other people. Like my fear and my resentments and my impatience. Like, can you just remove those things so I can be useful to you? And then I, and then I asked for knowledge, what's your will for me today? And I try to listen and sometimes I'll hear things like slow down. Like I'll actually hear words or I'll get an image of something of me, like standing in the grass. It's like, okay, this is how I can be more useful today. I can be present, you know? So I have a conversation with my higher power in the morning and, and then, you know, it's like going to meetings. I don't go to a meeting every day, but I go every week. I do my own therapy. I have to do something physical every day. I get to do something physical every day. These are just things I've learned about myself. It's like, I'm not well if I don't move my body. It's not like intense workout, but if I don't go for a walk or I don't lift some weights or do some yoga, I'm more likely to fall into depression, anxiety, things like that. So exercise, all the things like, unfortunately, that people tell you to do, they actually work. Like things we don't want to do, like meditate, pray. Feel grateful, exercise. There's probably other things I'm not thinking of.
Speaker 1There's a reason, though, that everyone constantly says it, right? Because it works. The conversation in the morning is interesting. As of late, as you're talking there, I'm thinking about, I've had this attachment to outcomes lately. That's been my real issue lately. Whether it's podcast followers, Instagram followers, this expected result, expectation, right? Always leads to resentment. And I was sitting in my shit for multiple days at a time. And so I would wake up in the morning, and I still do this, where I pray too, but I also journal out three or four pages of just free writing. And every single morning, just for two weeks straight, I would ask, I would just say, help me remove this expectation, these expectations. And I'm telling you, it actually worked. I look at social media less now. I'm not perfect, right? But I look at it less, and I stop expecting things. It's like, whatever. I do, I'm not in control of the outcome, right? It's, you know, it's very clear to do, I always preach this, but preach is the wrong word. I always say this, do the next right thing, and leave the outcomes up to the universe. It's not up to me.
Speaker 2Oh my God, that's such a, that's something I'm working through too. It's, I spin out so quickly when I start doing something, and I expect immediate results. And I expect a specific kind of result. And then it's about me, and it's actually not about the thing. You know what I mean? It's no longer about being useful. And being helpful and all of that. It's like me, I need to be validated, you know, and affirmed and all of these things. And it's, yeah, that's such a good practice to, I forget to ask for those things sometimes, like as they pop up during the day to be removed. Like I'm obsessing about this thing. Could you just take it away from me?
Speaker 1I heard a speaker tape one time, uh, he said, you know, he thinks about those things, like going into a movie and you know, not actually going into a movie, but you have this sort of thing that you won't let go of. You're holding onto, and it's like, I'm going to go into this movie for two hours. Hold onto this. I'm looking up as I say this, hold onto this while I go watch this movie. And it's like, you can do that with anything you need to let go of. Right.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Hold onto this. I'll check with you when I'm back. Right. It's not up to me.
Speaker 2Yeah. That's a D that's a very difficult thing. I think for most people, but for addicts, especially that want to like use is about having control. I want to feel a different way. I want the world to meet. My expectations. I don't want to, you know, meet life on life's terms. So it's a constant journey to surrender to like, I'm just going to show up and see what happens.
Speaker 1Yeah. It's a lot harder to do that. Right. Oh yeah. Um, I like asking this question, but, uh, I get a similar answer every time, but it's always something a little bit different. But if you could go back and change your path to pick the sort of normal drinker route, non addict route, would you do it? No, that's it. No, what I stupid question.
Speaker 2Yeah. God, that's so dumb. Would I, would I redo it apps? No, but would I change it? No, no. Like I love my life today. I like, I would not be such a cool person had I not gone through all of that shit. Like so grateful for it.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Truth.
Speaker 1Yeah. There's something that happens when you, uh, hit a sort of rock bottom where you're like, I could, if I could get through, I always used to tell my wife this too, is because she watched me at the peak of my recovery at the eight years and this like amazingly humble spiritual person just fall like way from the mountain top. And then she met, you know, Hyde Jekyll, Dr.
Speaker 3Jekyll, Dr.
Speaker 1Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. She met Mr. Hyde. Right. And like, when I say Mr. Like she saw addiction 360, the full. Front row seat. Right. And she stuck with me through it the whole time. I don't know how. Um, but I, I think she, well, she'll, she'll say this is that she hung on to that, like that hope of like, this is what he could be like, right. This is, this is him really. This is, you know, I met the real Anthony. So, um, but yeah, it's like, uh, it's, uh, it's tough to sort of watch someone go through that. And I mean, you have good experience with that too, right. Where it's like, I don't know if they're ever going to come out of this. And sometimes. Sometimes I too, I think, you know, marrying, marrying an addict is must be difficult thing to do. You know, it's like, especially when you know what could happen. And it's beautiful when you get, you hear the people that like, my kids have never seen me drink and it's great. But it's like, if they've seen both sides, that guy is like, not that far away. Right. I mean, today he's far away, but you know, and all it takes is one drink. Yeah.
Speaker 2So there's, it's like, you're either, you're either working on. Relapse or you're working on recovery, which sounds a bit severe, but it's actually true. Like if I'm not actively every day doing at least one thing to support my recovery, I am way closer than I think to picking back up. And that's, that's why I'm grateful when I have one of those drinking dreams, which comes every once in a, like, it's like clockwork every three months for the last three years. There's periods of time where I have them more, but I wake up and I'm like, right, right, right. I never want to drink again. Thank God that didn't happen. You know? So that reminds me how easy it is to go back into it. And so, yeah, if you're, if you're linking up with somebody that's in recovery, just make sure they got a program of some kind. Okay.
Speaker 1Strap in. Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. Make sure you have an escape route.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2A prenup. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah. Speaking of prenups, actually, I don't know if you saw that Nicole Kidman prenup. No. No one knows about this. My wife told me about it, probably from TikTok. Nicole Kidman designed her prenup. She designed her prenup with Keith Urban, I think, who's in recovery.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1In the, in the fine print or whatever, in the actual document, it says for every year that he stayed sober, he gets a million dollars in the, in the prenup. So he's got like $17 million or $11 million. That's great. I know. I was like, I gotta make a video about this. That's a great idea for anybody that wants to sign up.
Speaker 2Anyone that's got millions of dollars. That's the way you motivate them. Yeah. Right?
Speaker 1Right? Imagine getting paid to be sober. What a life.
Speaker 2Even then, that would not be enough unless you really wanted it.
Speaker 1It's so true.
Speaker 2But it would help.
Speaker 1Yeah. But I mean, yeah, it would be, I always said this, the most dangerous thing is an addict alcoholic with an unlimited bank account.
Speaker 3Right?
Speaker 1Because, I mean, you've kind of had that, right? For a bit. Or it's like, I, everything on the outside is good. Why would I get sober? It has to come from within. You have to have that pitiful, incomprehensible demoralization.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. It's really, I mean, a big part of my story is like, I mean, this is probably not totally true, but the way that I saw it was no one knew that I had a problem. Like, I was really, I wasn't like my dad. I wasn't, you know, drunk driving or getting arrested. Like, I wasn't, you know, or getting in trouble with the law. I'm like, did he get arrested? I don't know. Anyways, I wasn't that kind of alcoholic for most of my career, at least my drinking career. It was, it was like, I was pretty quote. Unquote functional and teaching yoga. And before that I was in the news business. Like I always appeared to have it together. I worked really hard at trying to appear that way. So I just want to acknowledge that because it doesn't look like, you know, losing everything for some people. Like I, some, some might say I had a higher bottom. Eventually it it's progressive, right? So eventually all of those things would have happened to me. I would have drunk driving, you know, gotten in a car accident and maybe hurt somebody and, and all of those things. But, um, there's a lot of danger in seeming to the outside world that you have it all together and you're just like drowning in this thing quietly. Yeah.
Speaker 1It's like the duck. Everything's good above the surface and then your legs are paddling like crazy. Yeah. Justification is a bitch, man. Like it's, yeah. As you're talking there, I'm not like my dad, right? That's like a huge driving force. I can totally get. With that. You know what I mean? It's like, at least I'm not that bad for me for a long time. It was, um, Oh, what was it? Oh, it was, you know, cause I relapsed on ADHD medication. It was like, yeah, but I need this to function. Meanwhile, the seven years I've thrived in business, like I got promoted at work without any medication. Now all of a sudden I need this thing to focus on reports. That's what I told my therapist. I was like, I need it to focus on reports. She just laughed. She's like, seriously, like that you're going to the club with it and then staying up to do. Work all night and then watching movies or whatever, and you need it to read reports. Are you sure?
Speaker 2It's like an addiction. Yeah. It sounds a lot like addict behavior. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1So, but yeah, those justifications, they, they can be so dangerous and they can keep us sick for so long. Right?
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1Um, you, you talked a little bit about it, but, uh, is there anything else that you're working on personally right now?
Speaker 2For my recovery?
Speaker 1Yeah. Just, or even just your, your life really.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean the, the. Yeah. biggest... growing chapter I was gonna say growing pain but there's been some growing pains um in the last couple of months has been like okay I'm I have I'm blessed to have a private practice and I'm seeing a lot of people that way and like I want to help more women that are in recovery how do I do that or that want to get into recovery so I've been branching out a lot more and focusing on like doing free events for women that are sober curious I've like launched this program that I'm doing this fall for women that are curious about getting sober or giving up alcohol um and that's all been very very aligned and like rewarding because it's like I just if I could go back in time and help myself I would do these things you know like I'm like here's some mindfulness tools you can do here's some community support here's some like it's structure it's it's not a replacement for a 12-step program it's part of the whole thing the whole toolkit right so a lot has come up for me in the creation of these things like you it's been so challenging to um show up more in this way like talk more about this stuff not because I'm ashamed or like I don't want to talk about my own experience it's just like a really vulnerable space to be in and you're you know even from like a business standpoint putting stuff out there and be like will anyone come like is this gonna work am I gonna be embarrassed so there's been a lot of like perfectionism that's reared its head and a lot of fear and um imposter syndrome like I've experienced another set of growing pains that I didn't expect like oh but I'm a professional I have a private practice like I have a master's degree like yeah but you're still an addict in recovery who you know struggles with thought patterns too you know so yeah it's been really interesting and I'm really practicing more and more exactly what you were talking about earlier which is like I'm just gonna trust that it's all gonna play out as it's supposed to and I really have to step away from attaching to a specific outcome it has to look like this and it has to have this many people and it has to have all of that stuff is is very destabilizing for me so I'm struggling with Instagram a little like that's a tough game to be part of yeah it's really annoying um
Speaker 1there's so many formulas and algorithms and you know sometimes that's why I always comparison is the thief of joy oh yeah it's like you see somebody that's doing so well on Instagram it's like this is this sucks like there's no there's no value here like what do I it's not
Speaker 2even entertaining right right dude shut up but yeah and and also I'm like I don't know we don't know how long that person has been given her you know it's like they might be on they might have been trying this thing for seven years whenever we're comparing ourselves to somebody it's like we don't know if they're at the end of that particular journey the middle we don't know what they've had to sacrifice so let's just stop doing that to
Speaker 1ourselves it's so true um you you compare your beginning to someone else's end right
Speaker 2wow I can't do this I guess it's impossible because they did it overnight yeah right overnight success that's how you do it right otherwise you're a failure oh I love it um
Speaker 1let's end with this thanks for being so vulnerable I I uh I really got a lot out of today I appreciate it but let's end with this if you could go back to and say something to your younger not even younger your addicted self today what would you say
Speaker 2oh there's so much what did I say this is when I'm gonna just take a moment and connect to my higher power I just like it's just one foot in front of the other that's what that kind of drops in right now is it feels impossible because we we're at the bottom of the mountain we look up and we go oh my god I have so far to go my life is such a mess I have to rebuild everything and that's actually what prevents us from doing anything so if someone had just come in and said look I know this feels impossible and like you you're never gonna be able to drink again that's like not something you can commit to it's like just one it's one day at a time and you're telling somebody that this is a problem for you start by putting that drink down like it's literally the 12-step motto right but it's that all adds up over time and then all of a sudden you're at the top of the mountain you're like oh my god I've come so far small steps yeah
Speaker 1but you have to take those steps well said well said thanks so much Errol for coming down I appreciate you and uh yeah I look forward to hopefully doing this again thanks so much for
Speaker 4having me on the show thank you so much for having me on the show thanks for having me on the show thanks for having me on the show thanks for having me on the show thanks for having me on the show
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