PepsiCo Chief Design Officer Mauro Porcini on innovation and design

you're listening to a podcast by bi norwegian business school welcome to creativity matters podcast on creativity and innovation from managers to engineers journalists to chef everyone is talking about creativity and innovation but are they really crucial can we manage them this podcast talks about how creativity matters my name is federica de molly i'm associate professor the department of leadership and organizational behavior at bi norwegian business school and i have the pleasure to take you to this journey towards the exploration of creativity today i have the pleasure of having with me mauro porcini who is a senior vice president and chief executive officer of the bi norwegian business design officer at pepsico which is the largest food and beverage company in north america with brands available in over 200 countries and over 300 000 employees worldwide at pepsico mauro is leading a new approach to innovation by design that has an impact on companies different products and brands since he joined pepsico in 2012 mauro has been recognized with more than 1 500 design and innovation awards and also with many other professional awards such as fortune 40 under 30 50 most influential designer in usa most creative people in business and was solicited by gq as one of the 30 best dress men in 2015 among all these activities i don't really know how he can find the time to do also this but he has also managed to written some books his first book is in italian and has been published in 2021 the title is a letter which i have here in front of me and was a very interesting reading and soon in october 2022 he will publish his first book in english titled the human side of innovation welcome mauro and thank you very much for joining us today thank you for having me it's a pleasure so i could go on forever reading your works and achievements honestly but i would like to ask you to tell your story well i could go on forever telling my story but the short version is i'm a designer i'm italian i come from a family that puts the human arts from literature to architecture art at the center of everything so that's how i grew up my father was an architect and an artist he's an architect an artist my mom she worked in finance but she's been writing poems all her life and still today every day and so this is the culture i grew up with i bumped into design i studied design in milan in politechnico i learned english very late in dublin when i was 23 when i was thinking it was too late to learn english another language when all my friends already knew english since they were 10 or 9 they studied at school i studied french and but i decided to get out of my comfort zone leave everything go to dublin study at the national college of art and design design in a language that i didn't know to learn that language too and that's why today i'm speaking english to you and i work in a big american corporation because i decided to take the leap of faith and get out of my comfort zone i started to work in tech in philips philips design in milan and then i created my own agency with a famous italian show business producer and celebrity claudio cecchetto for three years exploring the lens of digital the beginning of internet it was the the end of the 90s and the beginning of the 90s and the end of the 90s and the end of the 90s and the end of the 90s and the big tech company 3m the company from minnesota inventors of post-it and scotch but in reality they own and develop so many technologies that we interact with every day in so many different fields from aerospace to healthcare to cleaning tools to architecture and many other fields and then literally 10 years ago exactly 10 years ago i joined pepsico to build this new capability as their first chief design officer so after 10 years at 3m building the capability the design capability from scratch in the company moving from italy to the united states then i joined pepsico to do the same thing in a company that look really really really really different than 3m because it's a food and beverage company but with very very similar challenges to the 3m company big multinational corporation american driven they need to deal with global globalization new technology the digital technologies understanding how to become glocal in this global world where the local uniqueness of the different cultures is more and more relevant than ever and um what is exactly uh your um your work today i mean how is your daily um tell us one of your your days i can imagine there will be of course one different from the other but you know it's a question that i receive often and it's so difficult to answer because i don't have a daily routine i don't have a day that is the same than the other and and i got so addicted to this that i don't know how my life would be if i had a daily routine and doing every day the same thing but essentially in terms of responsibilities and activities connected to these responsibilities my role brings me to first of all talk with me about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about what i'm doing in my career and then i'm going to talk about unexpected and articulated opportunities therefore we call them opportunities that people see where nobody else sees anything and so the creativity needs somehow some form of constraint to be ignited it needs also some form of framework of field to play and and a metaphor that i often use is this you know to play soccer and be ronaldo or maradona or whatever is your hero depending on you know when you were born eventually um you need a field you need the lines that define the field you need the ga the goal you need to to to play within the constraints of the pitch and the same is for us we need somehow framework to be able to play within the constraints of the pitch and the same is for us we need somehow frameworks to leverage frameworks to leverage frameworks to leverage the creative energy we have to make sure the creative energy we have to make sure the creative energy we have to make sure that is used in the proper way if you that is used in the proper way if you that is used in the proper way if you work for instance in corporations in work for instance in corporations in work for instance in corporations in business in general this is true for any business in general this is true for any business in general this is true for any business any sides but especially in the business any sides but especially in the business any sides but especially in the complexity of corporations if you are complexity of corporations if you are complexity of corporations if you are just pure creative energy just pure creative energy just pure creative energy and if you don't understand the rules of and if you don't understand the rules of and if you don't understand the rules of the business the strategy of the the business the strategy of the business the strategy of the business the business the strategy of the business how the business is conducted how the business is conducted how the business is conducted the business won't be able to leverage the business won't be able to leverage the business won't be able to leverage you and there are so many situations you and there are so many situations you and there are so many situations where you have these super creative where you have these super creative where you have these super creative people that go inside corporations or people that go inside corporations or people that go inside corporations or they work through their agencies for they work through their agencies for they work through their agencies for corporations corporations corporations and and and they just everything got get lost in they just everything got get lost in they just everything got get lost in translation they don't understand each translation they don't understand each translation they don't understand each other and one of the reason is that this other and one of the reason is that this other and one of the reason is that this pure creative genius pure creative genius pure creative genius have a very hard time have a very hard time have a very hard time to understand the strategy of the to understand the strategy of the to understand the strategy of the business and now to really business and now to really business and now to really support that strategy so the real support that strategy so the real support that strategy so the real creative is somebody that is able to creative is somebody that is able to creative is somebody that is able to leverage the pure creativity that at the leverage the pure creativity that at the leverage the pure creativity that at the end of the day is a form of intuition is end of the day is a form of intuition is something that you you know that comes something that you you know that comes something that you you know that comes directly from your heart from your soul directly from your heart from your soul directly from your heart from your soul is still part of rationality the is still part of rationality the is still part of rationality the philosopher spinosa philosopher spinosa philosopher spinosa will define the capability that is the will define the capability that is the will define the capability that is the intellect or the intuition intellect or the intuition intellect or the intuition as nothing else that an ability as nothing else that an ability as nothing else that an ability innate you know that you have inside innate you know that you have inside innate you know that you have inside yourself of reasoning yourself of reasoning yourself of reasoning at the super fat in a super fast way at the super fat in a super fast way it was differentiating reason from it was differentiating reason from it was differentiating reason from intellect intellect meaning intuition and intellect intellect meaning intuition and intellect intellect meaning intuition and intuition again we think that comes intuition again we think that comes intuition again we think that comes from you know from you know from you know something someplace magic the reality in something someplace magic the reality in something someplace magic the reality in his words and i totally agree his words and i totally agree his words and i totally agree is nothing else that is nothing else that is nothing else that our brain working at the speed of light our brain working at the speed of light our brain working at the speed of light but still going through the reasoning but still going through the reasoning but still going through the reasoning and in this corporations we need and in this corporations we need and in this corporations we need reasoning and we need intuition you reasoning and we need intuition you reasoning and we need intuition you need doing you need intuition because need doing you need intuition because need doing you need intuition because that's where you get that's where you get that's where you get doing the those leaps that often you doing the those leaps that often you doing the those leaps that often you don't get to don't get to don't get to through normal reasoning and and this is through normal reasoning and and this is through normal reasoning and and this is what we call genius this is what what we what we call genius this is what what we what we call genius this is what what we call rock creativity this is where you call rock creativity this is where you call rock creativity this is where you have an individual that is really like have an individual that is really like have an individual that is really like wow how can he has or he she have wow how can he has or he she have wow how can he has or he she have this kind of ideas this kind of ideas this kind of ideas but then if you're not able to reason as but then if you're not able to reason as but then if you're not able to reason as well around that intuition well around that intuition well around that intuition or in other words translating it in or in other words translating it in or in other words translating it in something that makes sense for others something that makes sense for others something that makes sense for others it makes sense for the business strategy it makes sense for the business strategy it makes sense for the business strategy that help you storytelling that that help you storytelling that that help you storytelling that intuition in a relevant way for the intuition in a relevant way for the intuition in a relevant way for the different target audiences you have in different target audiences you have in different target audiences you have in front of you front of you front of you the different stakeholders the finance the different stakeholders the finance the different stakeholders the finance war that needs to invest in you war that needs to invest in you war that needs to invest in you the r d war that eventually needs to work the r d war that eventually needs to work the r d war that eventually needs to work with you with you with you and develop technologies to support a and develop technologies to support a and develop technologies to support a vision vision vision the sales organization they need to sell the sales organization they need to sell the sales organization they need to sell that idea if you're unable to use that idea if you're unable to use that idea if you're unable to use reasoning and discursive reasoning to reasoning and discursive reasoning to reasoning and discursive reasoning to storytell and explain what you're doing storytell and explain what you're doing storytell and explain what you're doing then you're like a mona there then you're like a mona there then you're like a mona there leibniz in this case you are something leibniz in this case you are something leibniz in this case you are something you know amazing people are like oh my you know amazing people are like oh my you know amazing people are like oh my god this is amazing but what do i do with god this is amazing but what do i do with god this is amazing but what do i do with it it it and then is there is raw energy that and then is there is raw energy that and then is there is raw energy that dissipates itself dissipates itself dissipates itself and nobody can access it so yes you need and nobody can access it so yes you need and nobody can access it so yes you need processes tools frameworks constraints processes tools frameworks constraints processes tools frameworks constraints because they ignite the intuition they because they ignite the intuition they because they ignite the intuition they contain it contain it contain it they leverage it and make sure that the they leverage it and make sure that the they leverage it and make sure that the potential of that intuition goes all the potential of that intuition goes all the potential of that intuition goes all the way way way to the people out there and create value to the people out there and create value to the people out there and create value for society else is just for society else is just for society else is just something good for you the creative something good for you the creative something good for you the creative person but nothing that we can leverage person but nothing that we can leverage very much this metaphor of very much this metaphor of very much this metaphor of soccer soccer soccer field and soccer play where we have players actually where we have players actually where we have players actually working there playing together so the working there playing together so the working there playing together so the team members for you basically team members for you basically team members for you basically and how do you select your team members and how do you select your team members and how do you select your team members which features do they have to have which features do they have to have which features do they have to have because we have seen that the the because we have seen that the the because we have seen that the the creative the genius is not always the creative the genius is not always the creative the genius is not always the best option let's say if he doesn't best option let's say if he doesn't best option let's say if he doesn't understand all this complexity around understand all this complexity around understand all this complexity around so what you need you need intuition don't so what you need you need intuition don't so what you need you need intuition don't take me wrong actually take me wrong actually take me wrong actually i think it's so important but it's i think it's so important but it's i think it's so important but it's absolutely not enough absolutely not enough absolutely not enough um um um you mentioned you mentioned you mentioned my books i wrote my books i wrote my books i wrote an italian book and now an english book an italian book and now an english book an italian book and now an english book all around all around all around that idea the idea of what are the that idea the idea of what are the that idea the idea of what are the traits the characteristics of these traits the characteristics of these traits the characteristics of these people i call them people i call them people i call them the unicorns the unicorns the unicorns um um um initially because initially because initially because i was talking with my own leadership i was talking with my own leadership i was talking with my own leadership team we were looking for these people team we were looking for these people team we were looking for these people and and somebody at a certain point was and and somebody at a certain point was and and somebody at a certain point was like oh my god they're impossible to like oh my god they're impossible to like oh my god they're impossible to find they're like unicorns i mean it's find they're like unicorns i mean it's find they're like unicorns i mean it's just impossible to find them just impossible to find them just impossible to find them and and then we realized that actually and and then we realized that actually and and then we realized that actually we wanted to find them anyway first we wanted to find them anyway first we wanted to find them anyway first and the what we were looking for is and the what we were looking for is and the what we were looking for is probably impossible to find probably impossible to find probably impossible to find because it's also an aspiration the because it's also an aspiration the because it's also an aspiration the unicorns are unicorns are unicorns are these utopic creatures that you want to these utopic creatures that you want to these utopic creatures that you want to aspire to in this aspire to in this aspire to in this never-ending journey that is your life never-ending journey that is your life made of learning and learning and made of learning and learning and made of learning and learning and learning every day you learning every day you learning every day you you wanna you don't you never want to you wanna you don't you never want to you wanna you don't you never want to stop learning you need to see life as a stop learning you need to see life as a stop learning you need to see life as a never-ending opportunity to keep growing never-ending opportunity to keep growing never-ending opportunity to keep growing intellectually culturally emotionally intellectually culturally emotionally intellectually culturally emotionally and and to get there to become a and and to get there to become a and and to get there to become a unicorn and the unicorn lives in what unicorn and the unicorn lives in what unicorn and the unicorn lives in what plato will call the world of ideas is plato will call the world of ideas is there is an idea and you tend to that there is an idea and you tend to that there is an idea and you tend to that idea but the idea is the full idea but the idea is the full idea but the idea is the full perfection the perfection that lives perfection the perfection that lives perfection the perfection that lives in the world of prato in god just god is in the world of prato in god just god is in the world of prato in god just god is the ultimate idea the ultimate idea the ultimate idea and and and the unicorn is something that doesn't the unicorn is something that doesn't the unicorn is something that doesn't really exist but you want to attend to really exist but you want to attend to really exist but you want to attend to what is this unicorn well i i created what is this unicorn well i i created what is this unicorn well i i created this list of characteristics many years this list of characteristics many years this list of characteristics many years ago 13 14 years ago ago 13 14 years ago ago 13 14 years ago because i realized that i was getting old because i realized that i was getting old because i realized that i was getting old you know i was hiring tons of people at you know i was hiring tons of people at you know i was hiring tons of people at 3m and i was getting all these resume of 3m and i was getting all these resume of 3m and i was getting all these resume of very talented designers and then i was very talented designers and then i was very talented designers and then i was interviewing them and interviewing them and interviewing them and some of them were great some others were some of them were great some others were some of them were great some others were not but they had everything on paper not but they had everything on paper not but they had everything on paper you know that i need it and then i you know that i need it and then i you know that i need it and then i realized that there were other realized that there were other realized that there were other characteristics that were really characteristics that were really characteristics that were really important and then over the years i important and then over the years i important and then over the years i started to hire some of them started to hire some of them started to hire some of them some some some failed some succeed and once again you failed some succeed and once again you failed some succeed and once again you see that these characteristics see that these characteristics see that these characteristics if they were missing there were a if they were missing there were a if they were missing there were a problem what are they problem what are they problem what are they the list is very long but the list is very long but the list is very long but for instance characteristics number zero for instance characteristics number zero for instance characteristics number zero for me to succeed for me to succeed for me to succeed in my teams in my teams in my teams is the idea of kindness and trust is the idea of kindness and trust is the idea of kindness and trust so so so it sounds about you know very romantic it sounds about you know very romantic it sounds about you know very romantic wow you know kindness is wow you know kindness is wow you know kindness is very nice to say in a podcast but this very nice to say in a podcast but this very nice to say in a podcast but this is really really is really really is really really characteristic number zero that i gave characteristic number zero that i gave characteristic number zero that i gave to hr many years ago 3m and now in to hr many years ago 3m and now in to hr many years ago 3m and now in pepsico pepsico pepsico to filter the people we are why well to filter the people we are why well to filter the people we are why well first of all because i love people that first of all because i love people that first of all because i love people that are kind and i can trust it's just you are kind and i can trust it's just you are kind and i can trust it's just you know my parents were like this i grew up know my parents were like this i grew up know my parents were like this i grew up in the kind of environment and today i in the kind of environment and today i in the kind of environment and today i have the luxury of have the luxury of have the luxury of you know surround myself just of this you know surround myself just of this you know surround myself just of this kind of people in my private life kind of people in my private life kind of people in my private life and also with my team because i'm and also with my team because i'm and also with my team because i'm building my team so i love that but building my team so i love that but building my team so i love that but forget that part because who cares about forget that part because who cares about forget that part because who cares about what mauro loves what mauro loves what mauro loves kindness is very powerful in any kind of kindness is very powerful in any kind of kindness is very powerful in any kind of company and organization company and organization company and organization because a team made of people that are because a team made of people that are because a team made of people that are kind to each other they trust each other kind to each other they trust each other kind to each other they trust each other they are together they are together they are together you know working is a team that is by far you know working is a team that is by far you know working is a team that is by far more efficient and productive more efficient and productive more efficient and productive you know that there is nobody there you know that there is nobody there you know that there is nobody there doing something eventually to stab you doing something eventually to stab you doing something eventually to stab you on your back or to protect themselves on your back or to protect themselves on your back or to protect themselves from somebody else stabbing them on from somebody else stabbing them on from somebody else stabbing them on their back this means that there is their back this means that there is their back this means that there is nobody doing redundant activities nobody doing redundant activities nobody doing redundant activities to to to be ready if something goes wrong with the be ready if something goes wrong with the be ready if something goes wrong with the other person other person other person any redundant activity of any individual any redundant activity of any individual any redundant activity of any individual multiplied for hundreds of thousands of multiplied for hundreds of thousands of multiplied for hundreds of thousands of people in a corporation produce a level people in a corporation produce a level people in a corporation produce a level of of of unproductivity that is insane and it's unproductivity that is insane and it's unproductivity that is insane and it's totally hidden nobody sees it totally hidden nobody sees it totally hidden nobody sees it it's also important because we know that it's also important because we know that it's also important because we know that sooner or later each of us each of us sooner or later each of us each of us sooner or later each of us each of us sooner or later is mathematically certain sooner or later is mathematically certain sooner or later is mathematically certain we'll have a very difficult moment and we'll have a very difficult moment and we'll have a very difficult moment and probably more than one probably more than one probably more than one in their lives in the future it could be in their lives in the future it could be in their lives in the future it could be a professional moment a project that is a professional moment a project that is a professional moment a project that is really not working or a moment where you really not working or a moment where you really not working or a moment where you are struggling at work are struggling at work are struggling at work or a personal moment that anyway is or a personal moment that anyway is or a personal moment that anyway is going to impact for sure also what you going to impact for sure also what you going to impact for sure also what you do at work do at work do at work in those moments if you have people that in those moments if you have people that in those moments if you have people that are not nice to each other are not kind are not nice to each other are not kind are not nice to each other are not kind to each other in the team then That's the moment they will try to profit of the situation to take your place or any way to put you in a situation that is difficult. If instead you have people that are nice, kind, and trustworthy, they will help you. They will take your hand. They will cover for you. They will do everything to help you in all possible ways. Now, if you are a corporation or if you're a CEO, what do you want? A team that is there to help each other so that the team keeps going, you know, with full efficiency, even when the team members are not there, you know, performing in an ideal way. Or you want a team that is going to be inefficient because they're going to, they're so busy, you know, fighting with each other. These are just few and there are many other reasons why kindness is so important and we never talk about this when we hire people. Optimism is another one. You know, if you are. If you are an innovator, if you are a creator, if you are changing the status quo, you need to think in an optimistic way. You need to think that there is always a possibility to better the situation. If you are the opposite, if you think that, ah, whatever, I mean, this is a status quo. How can you change this company? How can you change this society? How can you change this product that's been there forever or this brand has been behaving this way forever? You go nowhere. You need people that are insane. I mean, insanely optimistic and always thinking I can change things. Also because in the day to day, you will face roadblocks. You will face difficulties. If you are really innovating, you have roadblocks every single day. If you don't, ask yourself if you are really innovating. And so if you do, either you are, you have this optimistic approach to life or it's going to be a miserable life. Miserable. Curiosity. I mean, it's so important. To be curious because, you know, often they tell me, how can you, how do you train your people, inspire them? How you expose them to trends and this and that? Well, obviously we have tons of things that we do and, you know, we have data to, um, uh, that, that we make available, available to people. We do consumer research. We do all kinds of things that every company does, but they do think that that's what 5% of what you really can do, uh, by yourself. The 95% is all on you, is in your ability to be curious about everything. Curiosity brings you to explore the world, to, uh, you know, you do a business trip to really get out of the meeting room and explore the city you're in, to talk to people, get out of your comfort zone because you're talking to strangers eventually. And ideally, not just strangers, but people different than you. Curious people, usually they love diversity. They don't reject diversity. Yeah. They don't fear diversity because they see in diversity that opportunity to learn something that they don't know. They understand that the, these people are different than them. And it's both the more traditional categories of diversity, gender, uh, racial diversity, and then religious, political, but then it's diversity of any kind. People that think really different than you, that wear, you know, dress in a different way. And these people, instead of rejecting them, they embrace the dialogue with them. They want to understand why they think different. They want to understand if they're missing some point, curiosity push you to, you know, if you are a designer to try to understand the world of finance of business of technology, if you are a industrial designer to learn the world of fashion design and graphic design and, and all the other dimensions of the same discipline, if you are Italian to understand more of the Chinese culture, the Spanish culture, the Canadian culture, that's curiosity. It's key. And for me is a, one of the key, key criteria, not just when we hire, but when we grow our people in our own organizations also, because it's easy, because if a person is curious is also a person that is growing within the company and learning more and you see it in the way the person behave in the outputs of his or her work and respect is another one. And I could go on and on and on, but if we want to summarize these, and again, in the book, there is a long list. I don't remember. I don't remember how many they are, but like 25, something like this. And, and if we want to summarize all of this, you know, when we talk about the innovation mindset of people, often books and conferences and people and companies talk about the ability of somebody to think big and being very creative and a vision, but then also combine that with the ability to execute and make things happen. I mean, these are more expected characteristics. From the innovation world. And yes, you know, in my list, there are also those, but how many times you heard an innovation leader, a CEO, an hiring manager saying, is this person kind? Is this person curious? Is this person an optimist? Is this person respectful? And so on and so forth. Humbleness is another big one. You know, self-confidence combined with humbleness that push you really to listen to people and learn and grow. And so this is what we need to ask ourselves. And while 20 years ago, 30 years ago, this was not necessary for a simple reason, because this big corporation, especially, had huge barrier to entry driven by the scale of production, distribution, and communication. Today, in a world where anybody can come up with an idea, get access to funding through kickstarter.com or through the proliferation of funds hunting for the new idea. Most of manufacturing is going down, driven by globalization and new technologies. You can go straight to the end users with your ideas through the e-commerce platform, and you can build your ecosystem of communication through social media. So all these areas were the areas where these big corporations were building barriers to entry to scale. Now, because those barriers are not as powerful as in the past, you are bombarded by new products and everybody, the big and the small, are all competing for one. And so you have to create one thing to create the most relevant solution for people, the most meaningful solution to the needs of and wants of people. And so unless you do it as a company, if you don't do it, somebody else will do it on your behalf. And so while in the past, all these corporations could afford to have people that eventually were not extraordinary in the way they were thinking and behaving, working together, because they could afford to have products. And brands that were not extraordinary. You know, if my brand was not giving you what you wanted, you are stuck because when you are going to Walmart or Carrefour, this is what you are finding. Today, you go online and you find the universe. So either my brand serve you for what you really need or the new startup will do it on my behalf. And so you need better products. The Italian book is called The Age of Excellence. L'etat dell'eccellenza is about the excellence that we need to create. And this excellence. Excellence is all driven by these human beings, these people. So this company needs this kind of people today more than ever, more than in the past, because today you need to excel. In the past, you didn't need to. And, you know, the English book is called The Human Side of Innovation, but the subtitle is People in Love with People. The Human Side of Innovation, People in Love with People. And in these three words, people in love with people, there is excellence. Everything. The first people is the innovators I was talking about. And they have all these characteristics. Love summarizes everything. I explained, you know, briefly today, love pushes you to be curious, to embrace others, to love diversity. I mean, you really want to do something amazing for the society, for the users, you know, creating your products through your ideas, through the platforms that this company gives you. And the other people are the people you serve. People in love with people is the key. It's the key formula of this new world we live in. Well, that's very inspiring. I never thought about kindness, for example, and positivity and curiosity linked with, at the end, productivity and business. Very, very inspiring. And in your book, you say, for example, that companies have to focus on meaning creation. So creating meaning for people. Again, this idea that the person is at the center of all the business and a company has to serve people by creating meaning, making sense then for people. So we are not anymore selling products or like mediocrity, as you mentioned also in the book, but we are creating excellence and very important sense for people. I wanted to ask you if you can explain better what you mean by creating meaning for people and how does this can be translated into a brand, for example, into a vision of a company? Yeah. Look, when we talk about meaning, it's very important to understand what drives us as human beings in everything we do every day. So first of all, I think one of the filters, we could talk about this in many different ways. But one of the filters that I think is very powerful and interesting is the Maslow Pyramid of Needs for a simple reason, because Maslow was able to decodify what drives us towards survival and happiness, meaning that the pyramid is really about reaching our happiness. But obviously, first we need to survive to then reach our happiness. So if you look at that pyramid, you move from the bottom where we talk about survival, so the more physical needs that we have, safety and the physiological needs, and then you move up the ladder, up the pyramid, and you start to talk about communities and how you interact with others, self-expression, self-esteem, and something that transcends even yourself. So everything we do in our life, every single thing, and everything we do as communities, as governments, as states, everything, everything can be reconnected in its root causes to the pyramid. So when we talk about meaning, meaning is understanding what are the needs and wants of people, what drives them every day. Meaning is understanding what are the needs and wants of people, what drives them every day. experience many unicorns many in people that we might define very big innovators you mentioned for example Richard Branson in the book but I can imagine many others when you met these people did you ask yourself like what makes this one so special and if you have any lesson that you get from these kind of meetings? Look, I think there is one characteristic that I mentioned also at the beginning of this conversation is that ability to always think that you need to keep growing. You need to keep learning and you need to keep changing both yourself and what surrounds you. One common trait of all these people is that they are always there trying to change the status quo. They have very big dreams and ambition. They're able to make things happen. But when they reach their first goal, they're always thinking, okay, what is next? And they enjoy that. They enjoy the innovation moment more than the output of that innovation. For us Italians, Giacomo Leopardi's Sabato del Villaggio is this poet that talks about how people enjoy so much the Saturday in these villages back then in the 1800s, preparing the party of the sun, the big holiday. And then the sun arrives and he's like, okay, let's have fun. But the reality, they were enjoying so much the Saturday. This is the mindset of the innovators. They enjoy so much changing and evolving and creating. And then when they land innovation, yes, great satisfaction and everything, but they're all already thinking, what's next? What's next? And there is a, you know, in the latest book of Simon Sinek, I think it's called either the infinite game or the handless game, one of the two, but Simon talks that is, if you don't know Simon Sinek, read about Simon Sinek, because he's really an interesting author and thinker, but he talks about the difference between these companies that really have this kind of mindset that is all about innovating, innovating in an endless way, in an infinite way. You have that kind of mindset versus the ones that have a goal, they achieve the goal, and then they start to extract value out of that goal that they achieved, that business that they created. The innovator is somebody that keeps doing it. And it's not easy because first of all, it's extenuating if you don't have the right mindset, because you need to keep putting energy in this activity. But mostly, if you're not able to manage and extract value from what you achieved, you won't have enough resources to invest in your new idea. And you could be like innovation, you know, you need certain things that come from you, from the context and everything. And then let's be honest, you need a little bit of luck as well, because you need to be at the right time in the right place. But if you don't try, you don't put yourself out, as the Latin used to say, if you don't, you know, fortune help the brave, or I don't remember exactly how you translate it in English, but more or less, that's the meaning. That means that if you're brave, if you're courageous, if you put yourself out there, if you try, try, try, sooner or later, fortune will arrive, meaning that you will find yourself in the right moment, in the right place. So you need that kind of mindset, but you need also, you know, a little bit of that fortune. So the innovators need to keep trying, creating, innovating, and then at the beginning, you know, they're going to do it right, and they achieve the first goal, then you keep going and going and going. But you also need to understand how to extract value from what you did. If you're just there innovating, and you know, it's just an engine that at a certain point will burn itself. I would really follow you, I mean, hours in this journey through philosophy to literature and psychology, very inspiring. I'm coming to my very last question. I think you gave me already an answer somehow during our conversation, but I would like you to summarize and like, if you would say something to a new graduate, young graduate who is just finishing his master's and entering the world of work for the first time, which advice would you give? Well, you're right. I probably mentioned this multiple times, but first of all, because we're talking about graduation, school, university, understanding that the learning journey is just beginning. If you think that you are done with learning and now you're going to apply what you learn, it's not going to work. It's not going to work. It didn't work in the past too much, but now more than ever, because you need to keep reinventing yourself. Things are changing radically all the time. And so that kind of mindset is very, very important. The other one is looking at life as a never-ending opportunity to grow yourself through dialogue with others. So hunt for people that can inspire you. In the book, I talk about different kinds of mentors, people you can reach out to today, especially through social media, through the platforms that we have. You can write to anybody and they can eventually answer, or you can connect with people, go to conferences, go to events. When you do, don't be afraid to talk to people, approach them, inspire them. They will inspire you back. Not all the time. Fine. It's enough that out of 100 people you talk with, one says something that, you know, is meaningful for you. It could change your life. In the book, I shared some of these stories where, you know, the head of design of Philips, Stefano Marzano, decided to send a book to this kid that was stalking him, literally. I was 19. I was writing him letters and everything. He just sent me a book and the book changed my life. And it made me leave everything and go to Dublin to study English. Then somehow I found my way in Philips. And then in Philips, I stayed less than one year. I didn't. Not about, oh, I find somebody that give me a job and now I start and I stay there. No, no, no, no. This is really like giving you the drive, giving you the inspiration. I'm very active in social media because I like to be active. It's who I am. But what gives me so much joy is literally joy, not even satisfaction, it's joy, is when I receive many messages from people telling me over the years, well, you know, you say that or you inspire me. This way, I decided to close my business and do that or jump in an opportunity I didn't want to jump to. And now I'm doing this. It makes me literally, even now talking about this, I have goosebumps because by putting yourself out there and sharing stories and trying to inspire people, actually you help people. But who do you help? The people that want to be helped. And so if I see myself back then, if I see myself still today, because I'm still like this, you need to be the fertile ground where, you know, when the seed arrives, they can go in and then grow in a plant. So you need to put yourself out there and connect with people and be open to be inspired. There are many people that can inspire you every day out there, but it all starts with you. We were talking earlier about curiosity. You know, your companies, your leaders can give you so many tools, so many ways to grow, yourself. But if you don't have that kind of curiosity, if you don't leverage what they offer you, it's just wasted. And if you have that curiosity, if you're ready to leverage what comes from the company, then you realize that what the company is giving you is just what I was mentioning earlier, 5% of what you can really do. There is so much more out there, traveling, talking to people. I didn't mention reading books. In the books, there is the concentration of the best of the best thinking of people that were willing to share the thinking with the rest of the world across history, thousands and thousands of years of wisdom concentrated in these books. I would love to have, I don't know, 20 lives to read all the books of the world. Imagine how much better I will be as a person. So I cannot do that, but I can do a little bit of that. So reading is so important. And to close, read the biography of Steve Jobs and read the biography of Richard Branson, just to start. And then there are many, well, the one of Phil Knight, the founder of Nike is another one. The biographies of these founders are amazing because they, wow, you close the book, you're like, wow, I really, myself, that I did a little bit with my but I'm thinking, wow, I did nothing of what I could do. And you want to change the world even more. So have books inspiring you, have people inspiring you. Yeah. And thank you very much for this suggestion, advice. Really, you gave us today food for thought in many directions. And I'm very sure that our listeners have, I mean, took the most out of our conversation. To me, it was a very great pleasure to speak with you today. Thank you very much, Mauro, for being with us. And for sharing your ideas and part of your journey with us. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure for me. And good luck to all the people listening to us. And I wish you to find in yourself that energy to reach your happiness, to change the world. And to surround yourself with positivity. And then expand the positivity to the rest of the world as well. Thank you.