Pentagon Whistleblower UNLOADS on Alien Hybrid Breeding Programs (ft. Matthew Brown)

This suppression of knowledge, the suppression of science, the active interference in scientific discovery. What you are allowed to think and believe is controlled for a real agenda. Matthew Brown, it's an honor to have you. You have a core story where you bumped into a lot of real information around UFO tracking and reverse engineering programs that were ongoing and multi-generational. Can you say what your position was at the Pentagon? I was a policy advisor. I was working the counter WMD mission. Once I was read in, UAP just popped up. In this case, the Immaculate Constellation, you're building an operational picture of the world and having all domain awareness. Do you think they would know vital secrets about UFOs? Running up against their own interests and not disclosing this because it will challenge their economic, social and political power. Baked for shoot downs is in fact cover for using psionics as breeding stock for generations down the line where you have some sort of super psychic child. Whoa! Triangles in particular seem to be highly advanced. They appeared above Russian naval vessels. Relatively close, like it wasn't way up in the sky, it was a football field above them. The Russians had foreknowledge that this triangle would appear there and they were essentially there to meet with it. It seems like there's some reason for that meeting. So you think the meeting was intentional on both sides? Your report mentions a formation of 12 metallic orbs skimming the ocean's surface at high speed before dispersing in multiple directions. That's pretty wild. Yep. The White House possesses a unique AI capable of accurately predicting a range of future events. What does that mean? Our mind is no longer sovereign, it can be interfaced through remote means. Even our dreams are now subject to technological manipulation. This isn't even classified knowledge. Technical applications from MIT itself relating to dream implantation, including at a distance. Do you think ideas can be implanted in somebody's waking life? Yes, that's freaky. It is. And you're high confident. I'm certain. That's insane. There's nothing between us. How is this possible? Nothing to mention about that. The existence cannot longer be denied. I'm really excited for this and it's been a long time coming for me. Because I speak to a lot of people who have experiences obviously on the inside with UFOs. Either they've gone through files or maybe they saw a thing that they weren't supposed to. You are very unique in my mind because obviously that happened. You have a core story where you bumped into a lot of real information around UFOs. But you also seem to have extrapolated almost a model of how the nature of reality works or metaphysics works. And I don't think you make any bold claims, you know, and so far as saying that you know exactly how it works. But it seems like you've always been kind of a seeker along those lines too. So I'm very excited to speak with you both about your core experience and about some of the conclusions that you've derived from that information you've leaned. Thank you, Jesse. The honor is mine as well. This is also a long time coming. It feels right to be out here and starting to open up more and share about not just those experiences whistle blowing but kind of more of like what is life like after? What does it all mean and how do we adjust our our life's interactions with this with this information? Yeah. Growing up, did you always know that you wanted to go into government? No. No, you know, I was pretty much an outcast in most of school, not really till high school today. I kind of start to come out of my shell and graduated high school, not very good prospects and went to community college actually as a film student initially. So no government was never on my mind. The closest I got was on a few occasions getting close like signing up for the military, but primarily because even at that time the sort of wars in the Middle East didn't seem to me at least to be a just war and coming from a very patriotic family, the just war kind of thinking really was imbued in me from a young age. And then also, you know, kind of looking at like, well, what did I want to do in my life? Not the most athletic person, not the smartest. Maybe I can find somewhere to fit in in the arts, but life had different plans. About two years into that experience, I was persuaded by a history professor to seek out a career in intelligence from there. Yeah. Followed that path for years. That's interesting. Were they sort of recruiting for the intel world there? No, I mean, this is again, this is not an Ivy League place. This is just a local community college. Interesting. But you know, you have all sorts of characters at these places though that can teach. You know, we had a math teacher who worked on the space shuttle, specifically the thermal tiling system for that did the calculations for that. Had someone who was kind of an ex spook, wasn't very clear on that. And then this lady who had experience on Wall Street and seemed to have some exposure to the intelligence world herself. So, you know, it's strange you'll meet in the most unlikely places. Yeah. If you're willing to learn, you know, people will open up. And so, were you already in DC, or did you move to DC for the government? Yeah, I moved to DC for grad school and to get a job. Pretty much did both at the same time. So I transferred out to community college to a university. It's funny. I actually finished that university experience with a study abroad in Russia and moved from Russia to DC. Kind of strange looking back on it. And then, you know, from there, you know, I've made my first sort of formal bids to join the IC as it were and, you know, kind of got picked up and entered into that. Were you into UFOs throughout any of this, either growing up or while in community college or graduate school or as an entry level kind of pentagon employee? I mean, no more than just like a, I think maybe most people in sort of like the counter culture are like, you know, it's out there. Everyone knows the show, Ancient Aliens, you know, kind of growing up with that. But it was, it was never like a specific like, I need to learn everything about this topic. And I'm obsessed with it. It was just like, oh, that's interesting. And on to the next bit of history. Yeah. Can you say what your position was at the pentagon at the time? I mean, I like to not kind of put the spotlight on those offices, but I was a policy advisor. I was a contractor at the time. I was working the counter WMD mission for the office of the secretary of defense for the undersecretary defense for policy. And, you know, down in the org chart is where I was, but we'll just leave it there for, yeah. I still respect the mission. Don't want to bring any heat there way for sure. Were there any moments in that role where you had a wake up call and you were like, the world is way more on the brink on multiple occasions than people on the civil side realize. So probably just through the course of like, I guess higher education, you know, you in international affairs, you kind of are naturally led into like the real state of things behind or beyond the headlines and seeing, you know, just how close we are to to violence and lawlessness kind of spilling over and destroying what we've built. So, you know, that that definitely got to the next level of being on the inside and learning more details more entirely novel areas of competition. But I guess for most of my adult life, it's kind of always felt like, you know, the drums of war was kind of banging. What happened in 2018 to turn you from a garden variety, you know, person who was, you know, peripherally interested in UFOs to somebody who really believed that the government had kind of this comprehensive entanglement with UFOs specifically this, you know, tracking and reverse engineering programs. That were kind of ongoing and multi generational. Yeah, so I mean, that was built over up over time, but I mean, pretty much once I was read in just to my accesses for the counter WMD mission like UAP just pop up. It was just there as part of the threat environment. It was unknown, but it was, you know, it wasn't like there was no awareness of it. It was just something that wasn't talked about because probably, you know, people that are read in don't, you're not allowed to talk about it. And if you're not, you know, not to ask. And then that awareness, you know, kind of reached the next level again when. People know at this point I was exposed to legacy program material, in this case the Immaculate Constellation Program, and that kind of discovery of, you know, kind of confirming suspicions like, okay, this is all somewhat real. The government has to be involved in tracking this, and then here's like official documentation of one aspect of how we are managing the UAP problem kind of brought me to that next level of commitment to finding out what's going on and set the scene for us. So like, where are you, you're like at a pentagon office and you're searching through documents or what exactly are you doing? So less glamorous than that, basically was volunteered to clean up the file system, and you know, I was very much a new employee at the time, so I was taking any job I could just learn more and be useful, and so I was doing that on our classified computer. And yeah, I don't need to get into that, but I found it in there. It was labeled, nothing that would draw attention to it being a UAP briefing or anything like that, and just as part of that process, you know, open a file, see where it is, see what it is, and where it should go. And that file, see what it is, and like, whoa, what am I looking at here? After reading through it once, it was pretty clear to me that this was, you know, a, most likely something that they would call spillage, like it was SAP material or something like that. SAP is special access program. Yes, and it was, you know, improperly filed, and so this is based on that training that I had, you know, this is an incident that you need to report, wasn't quite sure what to do with it at the time, but a few weeks later, conveniently, you know, we got kind of archival training as an office, and you know, we learned what the pathway is specifically for dealing with SAP spillage, and so then having that kind of information started to report it to leadership. And what does the document say? I mean, it was PowerPoint briefing is what you would call a capabilities brief for senior leadership. So it's describing at a high level, you know, what this operational SAP is, very brief history of it, and what is it? So in fact, the constellation, it's a, or it was described to me, at least in my limited exposure as a operational SAP governing the intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance of UAP around the world using task and untast collection platforms, so that distinction being, you know, intelligence assets that are specifically, you know, looking at an area, either for a specific window of time or just durationally for a certain collection target, or things that happen to observe, in this case, UAP, incidentally on their mission. Bringing that all together, essentially, in my mind, where that goes is you're building an operational picture of the world and having all domain awareness. And is this happening sort of in this really systematic way across all of our image intelligence assets? Obviously, you have satellites, you have other optical sensors, you have radar, you know, on various, you know, naval ships, you know, all over the world. Is this happening sort of comprehensively? Is this kind of a niche program that we're trying out at low scale, or what sort of scale is this operating at? What the time of my exposure, you know, I've learned more since then through other sources who would know, but it was focused on imagery and massants, so measurement and signals intelligence, sorry, measurement and signatures, intelligence. So the imagery is kind of self explanatory across different spectrums. And the massant is, it's, you're basically looking at things like, you know, radar returns, electromagnetic returns, emissions, and kind of going, you're kind of in that realm of technical scientific analysis of things that, if you look at the end product, it's just going to be like a spectral graph, not very sexy for the viewer, but it's hard scientific data gathered through pretty unique means, not just on UAP, but you can do massant on all sorts of collection targets, with all sorts of means. And do you get the sense that this is a global project funded in the billions, or it's like a small kind of pilot project, or just from that briefing alone, definitely got the sense it was global, it was well established, you know, it was the mission itself probably, you know, took advantage of our existing collection architecture, and it's a mission that is operating kind of as a ride along or through existing means. I don't do not doubt there are dedicated collection platforms for the subject, but just sticking to what was on the page. Yeah, it was definitely a global, established, well-resourced effort. So an open source version of this using kind of existing means would be SpaceX, for example, has its Starlink fleet, so thousands of satellites, you know, for, you know, internet service provider access, you know, across the globe, but they can double use those, you know, they have put optical sensors on them, and there's a program called Star Shield where they can work with, you know, the NRO, you know, on that sort of double use. And so this would be something similar where we have all these assets that collect image intelligence and other signatures, and why not just call it all of that when it comes to UFOs and feed it into some sort of central database, and presumably do some AI analysis over it? Yeah, Bingo. You got it. I would just add that, you know, yes, space-based assets were included, but it also included, you know, terrestrial assets, including, like, you know, not just aircraft flying in the atmosphere, but sea-borne kind of sensor platforms as well. So, whole spectrum, at least, what I saw was, was used. Do we have any sense of who ran this program, where it was based, were there any names on the document that were relevant? Yes, and, you know, having since learned more, have more fidelity on that, but that wasn't in my State Department-Clear Report. So I will just say that, you know, it was the, you know, pointing towards Shriver Air Force Base in Colorado as being at least one hub of this program. And does that make sense to you given, was Shriver known for other things that are sort of adjacent to this? Yeah, it's a major, I mean, it's a major place for our space operations. I think there's a, there is a space command there, I used to know, where a lot of commands were, but, you know, that knowledge is kind of fading, but a major space surveillance, ISR, and operations hub is in Colorado Springs. And how much is mentioned, you know, by the way, some of this is public right now, is the entire maculate, is the entire maculate constellation document public, or is it just part of it, with some parts redacted, that's public? So my, yeah, the report, I mean, that's the, that's the name that, you know, has stuck the maculate constellation report. It, it's a bit of a misnomer, I submitted it to Congress as a field report. It's seven categories of evidence, only one of those being the maculate constellation program. Obviously, that gets the attention, but there's a lot of goodness in there besides that. So what is in there is, is the summary of what I saw and reported to Congress. The facts of my exposure, the broader report, you know, has more detail, but, you know, I provided that to Congress, and a different one for submission for public clearance. So I have to stick with what was cleared for public. Got it. So there, so there is a difference between what you saw and what the public gets to see. They're certain. Or between what I wrote. Yeah. But, no, I mean, like the maculate constellation file, oh, yeah, the PowerPoint is, I mean, I, I, I never brought that anywhere. In fact, you know, I, going through the exposure to it and reporting it, you know, I wasn't, I didn't become a whistleblower, right? Yep. I had years of my career after that, that file, that specific file, that briefing was mysteriously deleted after being reported, but did you see a deeper version? So you saw obviously a different format, but did you see, you saw more information than what came out in the Michael Schellenberger congressional hearing with Nancy Mase, is that correct? Or is it, you saw the same information, it's, so what, what came out in the, what I reported to Congress and in the document is, is the summary of about, you know, 12 to 15 slides, something like that. So is there more, yes, but you basically have, okay, summary, it's not like I got the, the full, I was never fully read in into a Macat constellation. I'm sure there's things I got wrong because I was only one limited exposure or things that are incomplete, but, you know, the fact of the program has been established beyond a reasonable doubt, both through my exposure and then, you know, other sources that have developed since then, you know, some clarifications have been arrived at, which is, you know, I, I, I, Saw it as a DOD program. That's how it was presented in the briefing, but you know came to learn later that it's You know DOD might be implementing it, but it's actually ran out of and owned by the National Security Council out of the White House So, you know, there's clearly more to the story but You know, I I'm only basing it off of a limited exposure What are the most striking things that the Immaculate Constellation documents say about UFOs? UAP non-human intelligence. I mean, I think Well, number one, it didn't really characterize what these things were, right? Pretty sure that's a separate briefing But it just established the fact of these things operating around the world Including over the continental United States over adversary countries third-party countries both around sensitive facilities connected with WMD and then in the global commons select over the oceans and Does it say that they show up around weapons mass destruction and nuclear? in in that document no, it doesn't Does not say that they specifically do that, but that is You know well-established fact just from other reporting in the government and some of the That included in in the documents that I submitted to Congress and in the public version And there's there's other people besides me that have made that link, right? I think Robert Salis is probably the most famous. There's a I saw you had a copy of one of the books like UFO and Nuke's Yeah, it's it's established beyond a reasonable doubt that not just nuclear Facilities draw their attention But WMD in general. Yeah, yeah, and so okay So it talks about these sort of global reports of UFOs It also talks about different geometries isn't that right and kind of tax on a taxonomy of so my report does the immaculate constellation briefing included examples of different types Again, this is a briefing for senior leadership. So it's kind of high level in the document. You know, it is showed Basically four case studies if you want to call that of collection events on these that were relatively Recent to the time of that reports drafting or sorry that briefings drafting, which is around 2018. So, you know Most interesting one to me was a big triangle Over over Russian naval vessels and indeed that was kind of like the first example led or presented in the briefing Also included with things like orbs And it was interesting because one of the events that was listed there was an event I was already familiar with outside of that briefing itself Kind of demonstrating that you know These events might occur outside of the immaculate constellation tasking, but they are brought into sort of the mission As part of its you know rule and capabilities What happened within a triangle? As I mean it as described in there it appeared over so sorry to set the scene we had a Surveillance asset in the ocean off the I believe was camchot cup at the Eastern seaboard of Russia in the in the Pacific And there was a grouping of Russian naval vessels one of them being a known Russian intelligence vessel At night and then the triangle basically appears You know whether you say a decloaked materialized phased in who knows the point is that it just it appeared seemingly out of nowhere Did not describe you know what the what the nature of that appearance was But it appeared above them Relatively relatively close like it wasn't way up in the sky. It was Maybe a football field or two above them And just hovered there kind of described as like you know kind of tilted to the side And there was no reaction from the Russian vessels Anybody could have seen that thing We did as well and you know, it kind of just hung that hung out there For duration of time the the briefing didn't describe how long and then disappeared kind of Just as suddenly as it appeared and that's really the the summary of that event You know it described the event described that they're sorry the briefing described the event described You know who the who which vessels were there, you know had names of them and stuff and the fact that they had been there in that area for a period of time before the best before the triangle appeared and Their analysis was that they had that the Russians had foreknowledge that this triangle would appear there And then they were essentially there to meet with it or waiting or waiting for it to appear How did the Russians have foreknowledge that the triangle would appear there not explained? Maybe I guess maybe they had their own version of macular constellation or maybe they were messing with some nuclear stuff or Because they're baiting techniques right to like cause these UFOs to show up Yeah, so I mean to to verge into my own speculation and not what was on the page I've come to believe that that was some sort of pre-arranged meeting For whatever purpose. I don't know But the triangles in particular seem to be highly advanced I think when we talk about baiting operations you're baiting more of Sort of automatic sensors that might be in our atmosphere or in our oceans right? Robes or things like that. Yeah, that are you know kind of a Cause-and-effect response versus something like the triangle by many accounts is under intelligent control Highly advanced seems like it would be unlikely that it would not just Be baited by a Russian naval vessels in the ocean, but um, you know appear in such close proximity to them for For fun. It seems like there was some some reason for that meeting. So you think the meeting was Intentional on both sides at this point. Yeah, I think um and when we say meeting the things Materializing and then flying off. What is that? Yeah, what what do the Russians get out of you know even Trying to sort of meet with you know, that's that's not like you're like sitting down Yeah, maybe over at table and you know conversing and talking about you know You're not negotiating anything right or or do you think something is transferred when the probably some sort of transfer Yeah, let's say diplomatic meeting where people get off a ship and dinner More of it seems like again speculation that that was some sort of transfer event. Maybe it was a data Right being transferred in a secure way, you know Line of site kind of link so that there's low probability of intercept or something else But that I don't know. Yeah That would imply I mean if there was some sort of Data transfer the and that the Russians were aware of and they're sort of like, you know Pre-determining this meeting that would imply a level of coordination with the beings that you know Would be remarkable it would be like at the highest levels of our government and their government We're sort of meeting you know when we want to with aliens or with net aliens is a you know a conclusion But with something anomalous some intelligence. Yeah, I mean, I can't say off of just that document alone that that was a Non-human craft it certainly lines up with descriptions of non-human craft but At this point in time it's possible that you know the United States and others have some sort of derude of technology that Looks like the big black triangle, right? There's that famous nid study done in the I think late 90s or early 2000s Where they correlate triangle sightings to naval bases in the United States? So either they're what's What's going on is you know, there's some sort of recurring Exchanger and use of our facilities by whatever is piloting these big black triangles Or or we have some sort of derivative technology yourself that operate from these bases Jeff Nusatelli also described you know a big black triangle coming out of the Pacific Ocean flying into Vandenberg Basically hovering over the runway and Vandenfriger first base and then disappearing. I talked to five shaken witnesses who described a massive Triangular craft larger than a football field that hovered silently for about 45 seconds over their entry control point before shooting away at Impossible speed Dylan moreland also at Langley in 2012 Exactly at approximately zero one thirty. I saw it and approximately one hundred foot equal lateral triangle take off from near the NASA hangar on the base PCs this triangular craft seemingly kind of come out of or maybe it was hovering around a NASA hangar at the Air Force base and that flies at his head Yeah, and then it flies off. Yeah, I'd be pretty freaked out if that happened to me Yeah, so you know there's these are all examples of the United States having some sort of relationship with these with these craft whether it's our own gifted tech or truly a third party Can only speculate but you know I have some good guesses. What's your what's your your best guess that there is an exchange or some sort of arrangement with whatever is palating the black triangles that are not ours. I believe we do have a derivative version at this point. But that is again derived from the real thing. And the real thing, there is some sort of ongoing contact and communication clearly not just the United States, but other governments as well. That's my opinion. And when it flies in the vicinity, there's like some sort of download that occurs. There's like a transmission of information. That's what some people have reported. Again, I did not come across official information. Well, I did not come across information on that in the immaculate constellation, briefing. Okay. All right. We'll read between the lines there. What any other case studies that really struck you outside of this Russian naval vessel incident? So, I mean, in the immaculate constellation briefing, that was the highlight for me. The other ones were examples of orbs or irregular/organic things. And some of those were again incidents I was familiar with that had would be incidental collections because I'd seen them on other systems, but they clearly were fed up into immaculate constellation. So I was already familiar with them is what I'm getting at. It was certainly notable to see them in the briefing and see the analysis done with them. But the triangle was entirely novel and new. And as I think I point out, like, there seems to be some sort of control, like information control system or security classification internal related directly to the triangles because they appear very rarely in the sort of regular reporting stream. They're definitely in my opinion plucked out and sequestered. Can I read your report? Because I think it'd be good for people to just okay. Immaculate constellation's primary mission is collecting imagery intelligence on unidentified aerial phenomenon and ARV/RV. So ARV is that alien reproduction vehicle or is that advanced research vehicle or what is ARV? Yeah. So there is what was presented in the immaculate constellation briefing. And my report to Congress was just reporting what I saw, not my opinions on it. So in the briefing, ARV and ARV were the terms where the abbreviations used throughout. It was expanded on only one occasion. And it's the best of my recollection. It was expanded as alien reproduction vehicle. Now, my personal opinion is that that term as well as the sort of upfront context of, oh, Mcon was created as a result of Luelazondo exposing ATIP were two instances of information kind of poison pills as you were or signature. What am I trying to say here? Basically a counterintelligence tool to see that. Okay, we described these things using these words and gave this kind of program history during these years. So if there's a leak and we see in the leak that these terms are used or this program history is used, then we can start narrowing in on who leaked it because counterintelligence, internal security keeps that file. My personal opinion is that if you're going to do FOIA searches, you're going to have better luck searching for the term advanced reconnaissance vehicle. You'll find some things from TRW in particular, not the Army ground platform that comes up from the cursory search. The term I know I've since learned has a bit of a reputation both from the, I think, Mark McCann. McCannish story, which I've only became familiar with after publishing this because everyone jumped on it in the sort of Stephen Greer expansions on that dialogue. To me, it always seemed a bit too on the nose to call something an alien reproduction vehicle in a briefing like that. But again, I just reported to Congress what I saw. So yeah, take it as you will, I would not put too much stock in that term being the full truth of what those are. But the acronym itself, ARV or RV, I believe, will also yield good returns to people that use those terms to search. Yep. We're in the hall of mirrors. This is intelligence. This is counterintelligence. This is program protection. You know, I wish there was a simple answer so that I didn't have to qualify things and could give people easy digestible answers. But that's not where we're at. Do you think there's a chance that the spillage and that you kind of bumping into this document, the macular constellation, was actually by design and that it was some sort of program protection device. And that some intel group is systematically tagging advanced research vehicles or reconnaissance vehicles with the sort of alien insignia in order to be able to sort of track the flow of who talks about these sorts of things. Personally, no. If you're going to have bait, you would make it much more appealing. The document was a working document. It was clearly something that was in the middle of being drafted like there were placeholder slides right where a control officer would insert sat material. There were no appropriate portion markings and I was able to see looking at the file history like it had been edited recently by certain people. And it wasn't labeled in a way that would draw attention nor was it stored in a location that people would want to search for it. It was just do you know who wrote it? I know at least one person who was editing it. You know, you can only learn so much from the files metadata, especially when you're working in a bureaucracy. Yeah. Anybody's name you can say or. No, I gave that information to Congress. Yeah. Okay. And you said macular constellation is an unacknowledged special access program. So a use app. It was established following the public disclosure of the A-tip all SAP programs run by Luis Elizondo in 2017. So did Lou Elizondo have something to do with the maculate constellation. He was before Congress a couple of years ago. And you know, actually next to Michael Schellenberger, who was basically kind of a surrogate for you, like talking about macular constellation, you know, handed the docs to Nancy Mase along with Jeremy Corbell. Very important to mention that. But when asked about a macular constellation, Lou Elizondo said. Mr. Elizondo, were you read into the macular constellation program? I would not be authorized to confirm nor deny the existence of any ongoing or past program, especially as it relates to a special access program either by name or a tri-graph. The modern hermeneutic on that is you were read in and you know all about it. You know, the glomar response kind of lost its utility. Everyone knows you're saying yes at this point. Right. So even a counterintelligent would know that that's going to be interpreted as like, you know, people are going to know that you were you were all over it. So I mean, yes, that, you know, I'm paraphrasing. I never brought the briefing itself to Congress nor could I. I mean, it was years since that exposure and deleted and I never, you know, did anything like that. But that is how it was described. I don't think that's accurate. I think that is an intentional, you know, half-truth included in the document to both kind of give a plausible history to the program, as well as a signature for, again, people that would spill it, or sorry, leak it later on if anybody leaked it later on, counterintelligence could say, okay, we know, you know, these kind of signifiers were used. So we know who was exposed this material and it can start searching. I, I've, again, through other sources learned that, you know, a bracket constellation isn't a relatively old program. It's an old mission, I should say. Run out of the NSC. It was not created in response to lieu going forward in 2017 and revealing the A-tip code word or pseudonym. So, you know, again, we're in the hall of mirrors. So you think that was the document was not reflecting the reality, which is that this had been a long-standing program, running up to the National Security Council, and this was sort of being claimed by A-tip and these sort of modern, much smaller, you know, nominal kind of UFO efforts, is that right? Seems to be the case. Yeah. I'd also say that since you're briefing senior leaders, you know, you're trying to just establish a high-level view of this and also the people who own these programs get to have a voice on what information is briefed outwards. So that might be going on as well, like we're only going to give them the bare minimum level of detail. And hey, we'll stick with current events. This is in 2018. Black auras and Black budgets, whatever that article was just a year prior. So it gives a. plausible sort of foundation to any senior leader who was not previously read into any other UAP programs to kind of latch on to and say, okay, this is what it is. I don't have to think too much further. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because OSAP was a $22 million program. So I don't think of that as even being able to house some like 360 surveillance, global ubiquitous, you know, yeah, Intel collecting network on UFOs. Yeah, and I would hazard to guess that because Immaculate Constellation is an operational SAP, you know, it doesn't actually own any of the capabilities. It owns the mission and the tasking. The actual assets themselves, the research and development for them, the analysis is all gonna be pushed down to the actual like functional components and most likely are in their own stovepipe, saps and caps, you know, compartmentation all the way down. - Yeah, got it, okay. And some of the other things that your report mentions are just fascinating. Centcom, what is Centcom for the-- - Centrocommand. - Centrocommand discusses cuboid formation of metallic orbs on USG networks, US government networks. There exists daytime FMV, what's FMV? Full-motion videos. - Yes. - And flee or forward looking infrared footage of a formation of 12 metallic orbs skimming the ocean surface at high speed before dispersing in multiple directions. That's pretty wild. - Yep. - Indo-Paycom, what's Indo-Paycom? - Indian Ocean Pacific Command. - I probably had that wrong actually, but yeah. - Oh good. Large disk using clouds as concealment. On USG networks, there exists OPR information, OPR. - Overhead persistent infrared. - Of a large saucer-shaped UAP emerging within a dense cloud formation. Northcom, is that North Northern-- - Northern command. - Yep. - USA. - Judge, Jellyfish UAP crosses US, Mexico border. Southcom, Southern command, Tic-Tac detected by space asset in proximity of vessel. And that obviously makes you think of Nimitz in 2004 and other sort of Tic-Tac reports. - But much more on the water. - But this is much more recent. The Tic-Tac maneuvers at an altitude at or near local cloud cover and correlated electromagnetic signatures were collected by Massint. So that's the collection capability we're talking about before. What does Massint stand for again? - Measurement and signers. Measurement and signers intelligence. - Measurement and signatures intelligent. In the available footage, the Tic-Tac UAP transits rapidly through the field of regard as it transits the ocean. It's wild. So that's this trans-medium Tic-Tac being discussed. - Yep, in proximity to a naval vessel. - So wild. - Again, you know, either it is interested in these military vessels. I have to revisit my reports. I don't speak out of school. But quite interesting that you have that kind of occurrence in a macket constellation with the triangle. And then in this, which is separate reporting streams, separate not exposures, but separate intelligence, you have similar kind of behavior being done by very advanced vehicle. - Wild. And you also have kind of a taxonomy. So you have, you know, specific geometries that you list. And general capabilities or attributes kind of associated with those, you know, forms and shapes and stuff. So just one example, table two, is a disc slash saucer. You go over orbs before that, you know, triangles after that. But the disc slash saucer, you know, size generally range from a few meters to over 20 meters in diameter. Speed exhibits capabilities for both hovering and high speed flight, often making sudden sprints. Radar detection varies. Visual sightings are more common. They're often metallic silver or gray is common. So that's just fascinating. So do you think this is what is being sort of outputted by all of these, you know, kind of collection? You said, so you do all these collections, you know, as part of this program. And then you funnel that into some sort of AI and a little cloverlay or something. Are these attributes, what comes out on the other end, is that sort of your understanding that you're reporting? - Those sections, we are no longer talking about the mac that constellation briefing. Those are separate intelligence sources. - Okay. - And those tables you're looking at are self-generated, based on my exposure to many things, but they're aggregated. I would hazard to guests though that they match pretty closely to what's on the inside and independent analysis that's been done on the inside. Because the simple fact of, you know, we're all looking at the same data. You're gonna come to similar conclusions if you're operating in good faith. - Yeah, so kind of similar to Dylan Borland, who I just had on a show. You have like a core experience in his case, it was seeing a craft. In your case, it was bumping into this document. And then you kind of vigilante after the fact, or like this is insane. I need to verify and look more into this and look at corroboration for this outside of just this core single document, is that right? - I mean, a little bit. I mean, again, I was exposed to UAP intelligence before coming across the mac at constellation briefing and after because I was in the WMD mission space, these were incidents that were reported in our intelligence stream very often. - Got it. - So it was, you know, it wasn't like vigilanteism. It was, this is part of my mission. So you knew of reports before seeing the mac at constellation documents. - Correct. - Of UFOs showing up at nuclear sites. - Yep. - And that, wow. - Cross all sources of intelligence. So whether it's imagery intelligence and all those different forms of it to signals, to human, to mass int, to sig int. Yeah, I said signals, yeah. So even before I'm con that exposure, yeah, definitely the fact of UAP was rapidly established in my mind and just through the virtue of my job. Have you seen video that stepwise, clear or sharper than what we've seen from kind of, you know, enable video, you know, forward looking infrared coming out in 2017. - As you guys know, I'm often doing shows that run three or four, sometimes even five hours. People see the finished conversation, but the real work is what comes before it. Weeks of reading and research. And then I've got to actually sustain that level of attention and detail in the room, live for hours. Sometimes I'm kind of groggy and I've flown halfway around the world for a single sit down. Obviously, I think that everything I cover needs to be handled really thoroughly and with the utmost respect, I have to show up at my best for my guests. And for me, coffee just doesn't do that job. Too much caffeine and I'm absolutely buzzing through the first hour and I'm crashing in the second. And that's the exact opposite of what I need. So here's what I've been using lately as a substitute. 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That's neurogum.com code Jesse, J-E-S-S-E, for 20% off your first order. You can also find neuro at your local Walmart and on Amazon. Have you seen video that stepwise, clear or sharper than what we've seen from kind of, you know, naval video, you know, Ford looking infrared coming out in 2017? Yes. Wow. That's remarkable. Is that like a, that's kind of a heavy thing to sit with? I imagine the fact that, you know, well, I never saw any beings on the inside. So I always, not always. I'm, you know, I can guess why? Because, you know, there's probably a control system for those. All of this stuff coming out from these Department of War, you know, data drops, data dumps are just very fuzzy. You know, and so you've seen things that are way sharper than what's come out there. I would, yeah, definitely. Also, I mean, there's the difference of seeing those kind of Department of War videos on the inside in near real time, right? And the kind of level of confidence you have in what you're seeing being truly anomalous and very relevant in your day-to-day mission versus seeing it in its censored form and its downgraded form on the outside. So, you know, it's a, I've definitely been exposed to a mix of quality both in terms of the visual fidelity and in the resolution of what this object is. But I mean, you can't replicate the exposure, sorry, the experience of seeing stuff on the inside and it's like this happened yesterday. That definitely has an emotional impact and from a level of certainty, you personally feel very confident what was collected on really occurred and is important. After seeing the Immaculate Constellation docs, does your desire to know, ramp up? So obviously you have this sort of like smattering of reports that come in due to just incidentally you being involved in counter WMD stuff, these things show up around sensitive nuclear assets. So obviously you're going to run into UFOs through that job, but then you see the stock and you realize that we've kind of been comprehensively sequestering, quarantining and really gathering intelligence on UFOs globally, do you then want to kind of like do a deeper dive? Oh definitely. And on a more personal level it was okay, I'm early in my career. How can I get into the office that does this? How can I get a job working the UAPV that said that? That was the personal motivation there was less go find all the details, kind of a secret score like it was more of okay, this is very real. There's clearly a lot going on that the US government isn't telling its own employees. How do I get a job working this issue? Did you try to get a job in the UFO legacy program? I'll just say that I figured out a few places where both my skill set would apply and the mission would overlap and I was on that direction, yeah. What would you describe your core skill set as? Man, I was never formally an analyst, I was never an operations officer, I was kind of living in a nebulous world of strategy, right? So my skill set as it were fell under net assessment and strategic development. So the first term is kind of a term of art in the military or the strategic culture of the United States, net assessment being like you're basically weighing up blue force capabilities, red force capabilities, intelligence around all that, both your domestic picture and your adversarial domestic picture and not necessarily coming to a conclusion about how many tanks do they have this year and how many next year it's okay, what does the United States need to do to achieve its interests given this net assessment of the state of play in the world and using that to kind of drive our strategy in very long term, increments 10, 20, 30, 50 years. The grandfather of that was a man called Andrew Marshall, the Yoda of the Pentagon, there's a whole office to it called the Office of Net Assessment. Very interesting place. Yeah, they do kind of like you said, kind of long term strategic planning, which seems really like, you know, especially vis-à-vis China where you have leadership that's entrenched for many years, that's not being cycled in and out, you know, it feels like a real deficit when it comes to, you know, US planning. Yeah, I think we keep those cards close to our chests, rightly so, but maybe too close because if not everybody's, you know, playing to the same music, you get a lot of waste of deferred and I think, unfortunately, that has occurred, both as a consequence of, you know, stove piping and then excessive classification, compartmentation, whatever you want to call it. What happens between you potentially wanting to work the UFO Legacy program and you saying, you know, being kind of exasperated and wanting to blow the whistle instead? I mean, it was really, you know, current events. I was just minding my own business, really, continuing my career. And because it was in WMD, that meant more and more exposure to UAP and more and more exposure to like the communities inside the IC and the Pentagon that were tracking this and discussing it and it really came down to, I guess, you know, learning from people in that community that Congress needed whistleblowers, that this was not being managed correctly, that it was being withheld from both the executive leadership and the congressional leadership that, you know, there is no oversight. This program has kind of gone rogue. You know, I've kind of developed in my view of what that situation is, but at the time, it is kind of presented as, you know, this was, this is a consequence of kind of Cold War secrecy. It's been out, you know, on its own for too long and now we're trying to reel it back in without exposing capabilities, you know, help us do that. And there was another line of communication that was saying, like people's life start risk, both because of the security measures being taken to keep the secret, the kind of corruption or unprofessionalism that is seeped into the program, just by virtue of being so in the black, so unilaterally managed and that there's, you know, potential like external threats that are going to put these people's lives at risk. That combination of no executive or no executive and congressional oversight, at least to the civilian leadership, plus people's lives being in danger is what pushed me to become a whistle blower. And in fact, I was asked to be a whistle blower. Even after hearing that information, I felt like I didn't have anything that would be sufficiently useful to Congress. Were you asked by Congress or someone else who was, you know, interfacing with Congress and then, you know, kind of do the delicate dance of like, here's some code words, yeah, you should go, it doesn't matter how little you know, Congress really does need it and followed that. And before, I think it's really important to note that before going to Congress, before, you know, trying to potentially work legacy and then becoming a whistle blower, you also reported the, this quote unquote spillage is, I guess, the term where, you know, you bumped into this classified special access program doc and you realized you shouldn't have and you also realized that you shouldn't just be sitting there on this server. And so you reported it to the proper authorities. Yeah, that was years before becoming a whistle blower. I, yeah, I'll just briefly tell the story, you know, once I found out, you know, the proper process and kind of sat with it for a while, like, well, I saw this thing. I got to tell someone at this point. Yeah. So I went to my first, like, sort of direct report, showed it to him. He basically recommended to me a delete that and pretending I ever saw it and then he just left the room and I was like, well, damn, old heads telling me that. Do I follow his advice or do I keep trying to do like what the procedures say? So I followed the procedure, went to the next level of authority. That person said, okay, you need to go to SAPCO, special access program coordinating office and report this. So then I went there. That was the third kind of reporting chain. And that's where I was told, like, okay, you don't need to sign anything, go away, very mysterious kind of interaction. And then the file was deleted. And I just went on with my life. There was no outcome from that. I just, you know, privately came the conclusion, like, well, that was, that was real. Yeah. I'm going to follow their advice and not talk about that anymore and continue in my career. Were you able to independently verify that Immaculate Constellation was a real program outside of just this one kind of power point you saw. Yes. And this is through just other personnel who would know or, yeah, people that had placement in access, as they say, so, you know, and you take their word for it, were they definitely not in coordination with one another, were they in disparate sort of roles where they would have the access and knowledge? Yeah. I mean, to the best of my ability to determine, for sure. If it was just rumor, you know, that's probably not enough, but having seen the source material itself and gone through the anomalous sort of reporting process, and having the broader context of exposure to UAP, no doubt in my mind, it's a real mission, real program. Does any of this have to do with the National Reconnaissance Office and their sentient program? I mean, to a degree, you know, you could think of that as like an enabler to the mission. The sentient program would have come online to my understanding after like, you know, the Macon constellation had already existed, but would have been integrated with it as, you know, leveraging artificial intelligence to do sort of the sourcing and basically live detection and censorship or compartmentalization rather of these collection events to both maintain sort of the internal security control. [BLANK_AUDIO] but more importantly to get eyes on to an event rapidly to collect more instead of having to wait days or months again. What about, there's a program at the National Geospatial Agency called Marsupial. Is that related at all? No comment. Okay, no comment. And anything dealing with CIA's Office of Global Access, a rapid response or anything like that. So I never was exposed to their relevance to the UAP mission, but I find all of the public reporting that's been done on it very possible. Yeah. And so obviously these things are being spotted globally. For me, I'm like 100% on that, on these anomalous objects, obviously showing up in aerial spaces in really sensitive military facilities, nuclear sites, national labs. That feels like almost like you got to really be dogmatically skeptical, a bad actor or not very smart to accept that that's true. And so Immaculate Constellation, corroborating that we're measuring that is very interesting and I'd say remarkable unto itself. But to me, there's always this cutoff between that and this multi-generational decades-long crash retrieval in reverse engineering program. Are you also confident in that? Are you as confident that we have, you know, the tracking over here of just these aerial objects as we are like nuts and bolts material that we're working on? And we have NHI-derived tech. I mean, yes, no direct exposure to the reverse engineering program, at least from my time on the inside. You know, you meet people afterwards and make of it what you will. I think there's enough there, there, though, to say that something like that is ongoing and is ran out of our national labs, for sure, and our defense contractors, most probably, that there has been successes. The crash retrieval program, I mean, I kind of wonder if that's a bit of a misnomer intentionally so, like how often are these things just crashing or if they are crashing, is it so much an accident as it is? Like, you know, is it more of a result of some sort of conflict between, either between these things or have we developed some capability to bring at least a subset of these type of vehicles down? And also, you know, there's an archaeological aspect of that as well, which I think is probably more interesting, because then you're getting into, well, that's kind of proof just through geological processes that these technologies have been here for a long time, right? If you're digging something up under, you know, tens of meters of sediment deposited on the ocean floor, like that takes time to build up. And do you think there is an archaeological component where we're finding these things? I do. Really? I mean, that's something that I've since come to both believe and kind of learn more about. Yeah, I think that's definitely one of the sort of secret aspects to this. Yeah, do you think that's more, I mean, Bob Lazar said that, you know, the craft that he worked on was from an archaeological dig on the ocean floor and it came from the navy. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Do you think that that's more common maybe than actual crashes? I would, I mean, just my personal opinion, yes. I think shooting down these things, especially if they the category of these anomalous craft that are non-human in origin is probably dangerous to do. But I am not briefed into, you know, the nature of our relationship with these beings and what level of cooperation or competition we have with them. So I won't make a value statement on that like some will where it's like, oh, we're shooting down our space brothers. I don't. I wish it was true, but I don't think we are in such a, you know, magnanimous position with these beings. Are you high conviction in anything when it comes to UFOs or anomalous non-human intelligence that is very kind of contrarian and goes against kind of the prevailing, you know, understanding of how these things work, you know, either from a, you know, intent perspective or crash retrieval reverse engineering perspective or like what the government's relationship is to these things. I don't know. I'm, you know, I'm not from UFOologies. Yeah. I don't have the background or the sort of, you know, the lines drawn in the sand like, I'm in the camp where, you know, there's no such thing as a threat. That's all government propaganda to the, oh, it's all a threat. So maybe that's contrarian. I think it's a mix. I think just like humanity itself, you know, there's violent actors. There's good people that are violent and under duress too or for good reasons. Yeah. I think, I think, like I said, the reality of this is more complicated than we're allowed to believe and saying it's all this. It's all that is, is, is reductive and unhelpful. When you were speaking with George Napp and Jeremy Corbell, you said these things might be made for purpose as if they're like made to spec for specific functions. Yeah. What makes you believe that? So that's looking specifically at sort of the, you could almost consider them, like tactical vehicles, things that are on the smaller side, especially things that are like irregularly shaped where it looks like they have either things that are like, you know, custom configured antennas or like manipulator kind of objects or parts of it that seem like it's for storage of physical things. So yeah, that's kind of my personal analysis of a subset of UAP that was familiar with that seem like, yeah, they have some definite purses. That's not an aerodynamic shape. Even if maybe that doesn't matter so much. So much of this is like very simple geometry. So when you have things that have more complex or asymmetric geometry, my mind goes towards, well, it's fulfilling some sort of specific role task purpose. And then you know, you kind of see them interacting in areas where, hey, maybe they're picking up stuff. You kind of, it kind of lends weight towards, towards that in my mind. What would they be picking at? They seem to be interested in certain mineral deposits. So might be, you know, some level of extraction or sampling there and it's uncomfortable, but I think there's some sort of extraction and sampling of earths, flora, and fauna, possibly human beings. Yes. And probably not limited specific subset of human beings. I don't, I so when we're talking about what the crafteries where I don't know if there's any relation to that, you know, I can have separate speculation that, you know, they're maybe there's certain categories of humanity that are more interesting to them, but that's not from inside information. That's kind of my own thoughts. Do you think that we've made agreements with the beings? Yes. For several reasons, I mean, the most defensible is just from an analysis of the situation, you know, I come from international affairs, diplomatic history, you know, international competition. And so looking at behavior to kind of a divine intent, you know, capabilities only get you so far in that realm. The behavior, especially between human human players involved, doesn't, it does not seem explainable unless there is some sort of agreement both between nations and imposed or arrived at between them and the third parties specifically related to like the secrecy measures, the lack of any sort of public or official disclosure. The military arrangements we've had in formal treaties, like there's that 1970-something outer space treaty where we agreed to like notify each other if we detect UFOs. That's, I mean, that's straight up an example of an agreement. Yeah, it's open source. Anybody can look it up. I think it's 1971 salt talks between, you know, the US and Soviets. And they're saying we have to coordinate around, you know, UFOs showing up in sensitive airspace. Yeah, yeah. And that there's some, you know, bits and information kind of picked up from the inside. And since then from people that are positioned to know that points towards, yeah, there is at least some basic sort of set of agreements between the United States and some sort of third party. And most likely other countries have some sort of similar or alliance blocks have some sort of similar arrangement. What do you think we're conceding and what do you think we're gaining through these agreements? I don't know if we gain that much, I don't think any level of altruism has been displayed. I think it's more. So, we're being submitted, essentially. We have to make. We have one agreement. Yeah. Or maybe, you know, also, just agreements doesn't always have to be in exchange. It could be being brought into awareness that, you know, these are the rules. You now, humans, because of your capabilities and population spread are being, you know, rising to our level of attention. This is kind of how Earth operates at a certain level. So you need to do these things to stay in sort of the established precedence of life on Earth. Yeah. Interesting. And what do you think they're getting out of it, because if they're, you know, 360 dominating us, why even, you know, engage in some sort of explicit diplomacy versus just like, you know, take what you want and, you know, come and go as you please. Yeah. So, to set the foundation for that, I mean, starting to be more open, I have learned that it is the oral tradition in the legacy program itself that agreements were struck between the United States and a third party in possession of this technology and that agreement in broad terms has two kind of arrangements. One was that there's certain areas that the United States within its borders, you know, needs to stay away from that that is essentially someone else's territory. So no developments there, no military operations there, no commercial or human activity. That's one area and of the agreement. And then the other side is some sort of access and access to and communication with humans of their choice. And that that is the nature of at least one very old agreement sometime in the Truman and Eisenhower era that was arrived at. I'm sure that there are things in the lore that give more detail. I can't speak to the validity of those things, but I'm just sharing that now that that is in the legacy program itself, at least, a line of not thought, but narrative. Yeah. I mean, in the lore, you have this idea of this griotta treaty where Eisenhower, you know, under the guise of going to the dentist in Palm Springs in 1954 instead jets off to Edwards Air Force Base where some diplomatic relations are engaged with with these beings and what the sort of common story is is that the beings are given access to humans for medical experimentation to American citizens. But that's interesting. You think there's an oral tradition where, you know, in the legacy program, this is undocumented, but it's sort of well known among people who work on, you know, UFO, you know, crash retrievals, reverse engineering or tracking. That's some sort of treaties were engaged in agreements is the term that was told to me. And that might be because treaties have to be, you know, ratified by Congress, but a business agreement does not. So I don't know anything about this, create a treaty, um, when there's that kind of level of detail, I'm kind of skeptical, especially given the amount of time that has passed. If you're running, if all this is real, like I really believe it is and have direct knowledge that aspects of it are concretely real, um, then we would be running, you know, we are security apparatus would inject disinformation when there's leaks or to preempt, you know, any sort of, uh, revelation that would be, you know, counter to our interests. So I think there's a lot of, um, half truth or complete fabrications out there that have kind of become unquestioned parts of the UFO community or UFO narrative. Yeah. But I think there's a core truth there and it makes, to me, it makes sense, you know, that there has to be some sort of agreement between us and other nations regarding this topic and us and a third party, otherwise, our strategic behavior does not make sense. So it's almost like the UFO legacy program has this, like, hermetic sort of unspoken oral tradition. Like, things aren't written down. Is that kind of what you're implying? Yes, um, and you know, developed sources since then, been approached by people that, you know, are, I think there is roughly a split between those who want reform in some degree of this to come out and those who don't, yeah, very much do not want any of it to come out. Um, and, and Dylan Borland kind of hinted at this, they're actually pretty direct about it with you where he said, uh, if there was a choice, a decision made to stop briefing new people in the legacy program on the history of the program. So that, you know, you're kind of just, you know, getting into the next generation of people that have no background into the, the ground truth of, you know, where this came from, what has happened and why decisions were made, you're starting fresh and you don't, you get to avoid the sort of complications of the past, probably except for a very small circle of senior leadership who would, who would have the need to know. So that is kind of pointing towards, well, why is it in oral tradition? It's because you have a bifurcation now, people who were, you know, briefed into legacy before that decision was made to stop telling people the history or some version of the history of the program. And those who have since come into the program did not receive that history, but people talk and people have questions, especially something as significant as this has the oral tradition. It's so wild that, you know, you would think that this is like the most important stuff. So, which is why you would keep it secret, especially when it's things like agreements that maybe were, the US was compelled to sign and probably, and may have terms unfavorable to us. You certainly wouldn't want something like that leaking, especially when you present yourself as the world's hyper power, you know, and to be clear, I'm not the only person out here talking about this. Neither is Dylan Borland, David Grush under oath was asked about agreements and said that he could not provide further detail, but he hopes that the people in the legacy program would come forward with that information. Yeah. Possibly an indication that we've made agreements. Yes. And, you know, when it comes to access to human beings, it brings to mind the story of Dan Sherman, you know, and above black and, you know, that's his book, I interviewed him. And he was this electronics intelligence guy, you know, the Air Force, and he was doing this sort of continuing education thing back in Maryland. He went into this NSA complex and somebody top brass at the Air Force brings him in and starts telling him that his mother was genetically, he was genetically altered as a fetus in the womb. His mother was abducted when she was pregnant with him. And because of that, he was given these sort of this hypersensitivity and this ability to communicate with non-human intelligence. In 1960, they started a project, it was called Project Preserve Destiny. My mother was one of the selected target to whatever you want to call it. And they did the genetic management, that was his words, genetic management. The result of it was that it gave me the ability to have this communications. It gets even crazier than that. He's given these sort of binaural beat headphones. He's shown a sine wave and told to sort of lock on to the sine wave and collapse the sine wave on these sort of graphical interface computers. He takes these pills and he hears these tones and he's meant to sort of communicate with non-human intelligence. And then he claims to have whole conversations with aliens. And all of this would seem kind of nuts if it weren't for the fact that you apparently confoya, you know, Project Preserve Destiny, you know, with the vis-a-vis the Air Force, the Air Force then forwards it to the NSA, which is kind of a tell that it's a real program. And you know, all of the facts line up, you know, both bases in Italy, San Vito, Denormoni, and Offit line up with his descriptions of them, his electronics intelligence, you know, knowledge seems totally legit. And then somebody very senior, former, very senior in government that I know says that NSA building is real and that, you know, some other people think that his story is totally above board. And the thing he was downloading from these beings, one of them was called bones and one was spock, so they were sort of Star Trek inspired just the names that he decided to name them casually, you know, because he was so like, I think he had to like make fun out of how ridiculous this sort of job was, is they were giving him coordinates and descriptions of people being abducted. So he became, he went from move, you know, from this electronics intelligence guy to this alien signals intelligence where it was almost like this predictive mapping of, you know, where human beings in the US were being abducted. Yeah, it's, it's pretty wild, but it's one, I mean, that book is one of the very few UFO books I've read and only read that book specifically because it was told to me by insiders that it was incredible disclosure, and basically the real deal. I think that is some evidence of the implementation of these agreements, especially over duration, because it's not like he was brought in to figure this out. He was brought in basically as a tool to be part of an operation that was well established. There was an SOP for everything that he was just kind of brought into, executed, and then, at some point, you know, left from, seems like a pretty established system to me. And I think it's, you know, just a commentary on that would be, you know, if you take that at base value, which I think we can to a degree, and then you look at things like that leaked phone call between Kit Greene and a- K. Randall May. Yes. Government remote view. And they're talking about basically the other end of that, which is the contactees out there that have been contacted by these beings that presumably would have been identified to someone. What was his name, but in Project Preserve Destiny? Dan Sherman. Dan Sherman. That would have been identified to Dan Sherman, those communications. And these people would have been the human assets in the field going and checking up on these people to figure out essentially, you know, what their experience was like, what kind of communications they had with these beings and feed that back to the Central Intelligence Agency. That all seems very plausible to me, if this is all real, which I think some degree of it is. It seems plausible to me, too, especially my friend Greg Molazzi. He made this great documentary on Andre Puharic, it's called Mind Traveler. And he was all over kind of the- there was literally like a machine that Puharic used to- and it was again, this was kind of- he's the father of kind of see a lot of CIA mind control stuff in MK Ultra, but he's bumping into non-human intelligences and having these quote-unquote space kids and awesoning New York channel, but they're bumping into this quote-unquote nine, this council of nine beings. And so all the kids that had an experience, he would hypnotize them and allegedly the nine would come through, even through these kids. And, you know, it's- I guess they line up with Egyptian deities, but you know, there seemed to be some sort of non-human intelligence component that they're bumping into. And Greg, who's done- you know, he literally spent 11 years making this movie, he's done probably more through a research on Puharic than anyone I know. So it says that there are tons of parallels between the techniques that Puharic was using and what Dan Sherman was meant to do later. And so then you could say, oh, this is just some weird, you know, gifted and talented education style, you know, a parapsychology program where you're- you're testing people's kind of mind matter abilities, but it almost seems like the parapsychology and the mind control stuff, you bump into the channel of the non-human intelligences. Like you bump into this like much wider epistemology that involves like a lot of life beyond mankind. Fascinating. I think we're getting into the sort of consciousness aspect or the sigh aspect of all of this, which seem, you know, I have- I can only offer my personal opinions on that with maybe an appeal to authority of, you know, there's things I've been exposed to that lead me to believe there's a foundation to all this, but I'm still under secrecy obligations. So- But I mean, there's also there's there's an open sort. There's Stargate, which ran, you know, from the 70s to the 90s that, you know, the CIA's on record doing remote viewing and in sensitive case, Jimmy Carter said the most impressive thing from his entire presidency from 1976 to 1980 was Rosemary Cleaney, this remote viewer in 1979 finding this TU-22 Russian cargo plane that- and she was given the map of Africa as a target because the thing had crashed and they didn't want to kind of, you know, bias her and she circles three square miles in Zaire where they find the plane. So like they're things like that over and over again, you know, Joe McMonigal, who's one of the best remote viewers known as remote viewer number one, when the Legion of Merit for I think almost 200 or around 200 instances of adding to, you know, real military intel. So this is it's, it's widely known at this point that that's that that's real. And then too many people don't then extrapolate. Okay, your reality is entirely differently. It works entirely differently than you think it does if that's real. Because if that's real, like all things are possible, right? Like mental processes are entangled with reality itself. Yeah, I know I would, I would hazard to guess that some of these entities operate on that level and have far greater knowledge of it and indeed have technology that interacts with it and enables it for them and that essentially, you know, they're competing in a whole other domain than we are or at least have been historically, you know, kind of a very profound asymmetric advantage, especially if we continue to discount it and not factor it into into our lives and our behavior. I think the parapsychology stuff is in some ways. I don't want to say the foundation of all of this, but it has to be very fundamental to understanding the nature of reality if if any of that stuff is real. And I think of how put off being the head of stargate, you know, that the head of this CIA Psychic Spy program and seemingly the tip of the spear at least in the open source world when it comes to UFO propulsion and UFO science. And I don't think that's a coincidence. No, no. I'm with you there. I think they're definitely linked. I think some degree of the interests of the others or of the non-human intelligence or anomalous intelligence is some degree of their interest is tied to whatever this latent capability is in humanity, whether it's too suppressed, it's because if we continue to evolve in that direction, we eventually become, you know, long-term competitor to them or to leverage it for their own use, whether that's something as, you know, benign as controlling humanity on earth through a psychic hierarchy as a form of colonization essentially or actually using those abilities for specific purposes, I think both are equally plausible. Yeah. And, you know, there are all sorts of things from the remote viewing program like, you know, Skip Atwater had this program and I think Pat Price was tasked with remote viewing. I think these are these bases, these alien bases all over the world, Mount Zile in Australia, Mount Hayes, in Alaska, Mount Perdido, in Spain, are all sort of show up. And I wonder if those are the no-go zones that, you know, might be discussed in this treaty. You also have Secret Mountain in Arizona. No, Chasta, I think, was one of them too. Mount Chasta. You have these places that you see orbs going into the mountain, crafts going into the mountain, and you know, people go disappearing in other ones, Mount Inyan Gani in Zimbabwe. A lot of anomalous stuff seems to occur around these, you know, territories. Do you think those might be the no-go zones that we were told to stay away from in these treaties or the agreements with the beings? I find that plausible. Yes. I wish I knew the specific areas I could confirm it for you, but I think on that, and if you're able to correlate, you know, sightings to these hot spots of activity and then look at, you know, human population around them and where maybe desirable areas mysteriously aren't occupied or desirable mineral deposits and things aren't being exploited that, you know, you start to build a picture of where these territorial limits are. I think, you know, the other thing around, you know, this idea of a lot of this stuff being downstream of Paris's psychology, do you know the tagline of Arrow, the all-domain anomalies resolution office, which is publicly supposed to be sort of pouring cold water on all the UFO stuff. I mean, that's kind of the, they've act as, they act as either kind of suppressing this information or collecting this info and maybe, you know, trying to reinforce legacy structures. They sort of seem to act like a fly trap, but do you know their tagline? I mean, it's in Latin and I probably have it wrong, but the translation is something like the universe is what our thoughts make of it, but maybe you have it. No, that's exactly pretty much right. Our life is what our thoughts make it. Okay. Yeah. Strange motto for an all-domain anomaly resolution office. Yeah, especially one that's like nominally seeming to, you know, kind of downplay and dismiss all these sightings and experiences. It's very strange. It's like you're admitting that the Paris psychology stuff like this Cartesian duality thing that we've been living in for, you know, centuries is wrong. It's even more radical in some ways saying we're not alone as a species. It's saying like, no, our entire scientific framework is, you know, you could turn that upside down and consciousness is fundamental. It's a very human thing to do to give a wink and a nod when you think nobody except that those who are briefed will know what you're saying. There's this great book by a guy called Trevor Piglin. I think it's like it's basically what it is is a compilation of black project patches. And he goes through and analyzes the symbology or the symbolism used in those patches and connects those sometimes to classified programs or classified capabilities and You know humans are humans man. You're working on something cool You want to share it with your buddies, but you got to keep it secret and it's fun to hold that secret especially in plain sight So interesting motto absolutely strange motto Something you said that I find fascinating because I think it adds a really important element or piece and and actually conflicts with I think a popular conception of how this stuff works is that a lot of UFO programs including Immaculate Constellation rolls up to the National Security Council And that sits under the White House and the president and traditionally I think in UFO lore people think of the president as this sort of Temp that like, you know isn't given access to any of the goods. Maybe somebody like George H. W. 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Thank you so much to qualia for sponsoring this episode When we first started selling merchandise at American alchemy merch.com We had no idea how complicated and annoying selling merch could be Shopify made it simple to build a story that actually feels authentic to us Which matters when you're operating in a niche like alternative tech UFOs, fringe science and all the other stuff we cover Shopify's AI tools help write descriptions organize products even clean up photos in our case It allowed us to focus on what matters and what we care about like design and brand vision and building the best Custom merch line possible with the coolest clothing there is like our traditional Japanese Fukushima T-shirt and our cowboy UFO T sign up now for your one dollar per month trial and start today at shopify.com slash jessie again That's shopify.com slash jessie J-E-S-S-E One dollar to try shopify, which is the state of the art solution in e-commerce today Thank you so much to shopify for sponsoring today's episode So you actually are saying that UFO programs roll up to the president At least this one does when it comes to macular constellation It appears that the cognizant authority the ultimate like Where the buck stops is and then is in the national security council in a specific um director in there Probably has for quite a while The NSE is a funny place, you know, a writ Nominally as a coordination body, but you know people heads of departments and agencies co-chair, you know Or their dual had it to the NSE and you have agency or agency and department staff get detailed there. It's essentially You know a de facto governing body within the executive branch Certainly has gotten quite large kind of like OD and I itself. It's in the many hundreds at this point And do you think everybody on the national security council is aware of UFO programs? No, okay, so some small subset Yes, yeah, and would you have a sense of who that subset would be? Yeah, I you know Give me an orchartic and point to the year of likely candidates and probably at least one for sure and so like often what here's what I don't understand about the UFO legacy structure it sometimes feels like deputies are read in but then the people at the top aren't read in, you know, so like um Yeah, what is what does that mean? How how do you coordinate because the government is Not super well-coordinated often. It's this clunky kind of blobby bureaucracy and so You know, I I look at UAP Gurbs channel and he like maps the legacy program and it's amazing where he's talking about federally funded research and development centers and how they carve out these special access programs, you know Inside of the prime contractors, but those roll up to you know DOE CIA DSNT and you know all these different thing and I'm like The amount of interagency, you know, it cuts across so many different orgs And so why wouldn't you see more spillage or more leakage and that would be my one one question My second question is how is it all coordinated? Mm-hmm. Is it like we have Non-humans in the government and they like they wink wink nudge nudge to each other and then they that's how they they coordinate Parapsychologically or something like how how does this work? Hmm. Yeah broad question So I think more Legacy program more which has since filtered out was that there was a decision made in the Nixon administration into the forward administration to essentially privatize this to a large degree or at the very least these sort of custody of the materials the research of the materials that we've recovered or devices and craft that we've obtained um, so I think we're kind of looking in a In a big picture a bifurcation between you know the reverse engineering and exploitation and derivative tech is basically gone all private industry And then you have just by virtue of the sort of revolving door function in government, um, you know Northrop Grumman's president then becomes the undersecretary defense for policy. He doesn't need to be briefed into what Northrop Grumman owns You can just Align resources in line activities with the legacy program while he's doing his temporary duty In government, but then you get towards well, there's an operational side of this clearly You know, we we we we track these things we respond to them in the field. It's it's more involved than just a laboratory looking at stuff Uh, and in that I think you get you just you have the virtue of military authority Um, you can do you need a lot of things in military that'll never see the lie today and people won't even want to leak it You know, there's there's a there's a brotherhood there. There's a tradition of silence there Um, and you know when you think you're doing the right thing and part of that right thing is keeping the secret from humanity or those who don't deserve to know Um, you're incentive start to align towards you know generational silence. And that's another point, which is that You know, I've come to learn that legacy program across it's many aspects is a somewhere's the security is maintained through fan trusted families Through family lineages Really yes, um, you know tracing back to the Manhattan project as one and this is not a unique Security feature to the legacy program itself in the intelligence community, you know There's a well-known phenomena of generational intelligence officers people's whose family lines have been involved in intelligence for You know multiple iterations and they are highly trusted because of that Interesting. So when you say it runs in families It's these long Time kind of intel families or is it like ultra wealthy like elite kind of build it age families or yeah definitely the intel families military families um, and then private industry families Yeah, I kind of have a I've been saying recently. You know, you kind of have sort of a the correct political model for how this works Is more aligned with some sort of form of like neo-futalism, you know, you have different fiefdoms Um, you know, they they defend the realm together, but inside the realm they're competing with each other and protecting their own little Uh corners of the kingdom. Yeah, wow. And you mentioned Northrop Grumman with Jeremy Corbell and George NAP. You mentioned that they had kind of a dirty tricks department or like literally like groups that solely tried to kind of engage in sort of retributions and recriminations against anybody sort of talking about this stuff in public. And they will literally mess with them personally. Was that right? Yeah, they seemed to have been given for some time now the authority to implement program security through their corporate security forces and that they are yeah responsible for sort of the deniable actions taken to preserve the secrecy and punish people who step out of line. There's a spectrum of means that they will they will use to do that. But they certainly seem to be one of the current bad actors in town. And I believe the sister of one of the authors of that Wall Street Journal article that was sort of completely dismissing UFOs they even said that Bob Salis incident at Maumstrom nuclear base in 1967 where he was got Oscar you know launch facility underground and you had this red orb over top and nine out of 10 missiles wanted to know go mode under his watch concurrent with this orb showing up this red orb making right angle turns and stuff. They said that they wield an EMP up to the base and fried all the electronics on site with people present. It makes no sense either this is before EMPs were even operational. But I think the sister of the author one of the co authors of the article was actually like this you know a high up VP at Northrop Grumman which I find interesting. It's a very implausible story to begin with I'm surprised the Wall Street Journal would publish some nonsense like that. But it makes more sense when you realize yeah you have you have a blood and treasure involved. Yeah it's total nonsense. I also went to the Wall Street Journal and I advocated for an article to be published by somebody who I know and other people know he's kind of high up in the you know UFO conversation. He co-authored an article with a former secretary of defense who was upset that while he was secretary of defense he wasn't given access to the UFO program oversight and they rejected that for their op-ed section and then they published this fake nonsense talking about non-nuclear EMP as a cover story for what was clearly a UFO event in 1967 doesn't make any sense it implies literally that you have an a priori agenda and you're not reporting the facts. Yeah I'm of the opinion and have knowledge to back up that opinion that the mainstream media sent especially the the more established outlets you know they have their unacknowledged intelligence liaisons inside their offices that will you know quash stories and pump up others people in the national security reporting sort of environment they they go to places like ODNI on a weekly basis and get their briefing for what they're going to talk about next week. We live in a controlled media environment. Mockingbird never stopped. It's pretty disappointing to know that that's the reality of our situation and it's so widespread and so ingrained in like a cultural value of most people that you know these are our trusted sources of information there's no way they would lie to us there's no way the CIA operates domestically. You can shout from the rooftops how wrong that is but people don't want to believe. Yeah and playing doubles advocate for a moment on Northrop for example being involved or at least being able to do useful stuff with UFOs they've been hanging out at like probably like a 70 to a hundred billion dollar market cap for a long time like they're lagging they're lagging in hypersonic and all these sort of conventional prosaic capabilities I think there's this you know famous shots across the bow that Trump has you know delivered to them where they're like he's like get your shit together basically so are can they do anything with any of these UFOs or do they just retrieve them you know it's now been it's you know probably more publicly known that you know other others have speculated that Jake Barber worked it Northrop Grumman for example. We recovered an egg and we just call it the egg because that's what it was it's like a giant white egg 20 feet longitudinally spherical with a little bit of an asymmetrical three-dimensional rounding shape to it so if he's actually retrieving these like egg-shaped crafts are we able to do anything with these things given that again these prime contractors it's not quarter over quarter growth wins the day you show but you know any sort of internal board meeting and you're like look we have this like zero point thing I think a lot of people internally would be like really fight fighting to monetize that yeah it's an interesting question I mean I'm not from the financial or economic kind of background so to me to a level it kind of it kind of doesn't matter what the numbers are for the money when you're talking about these capabilities like alternative energy sources or really destructive weapons capabilities are really penetrating surveillance capabilities and couple that with essentially long-term government contracts you know there there might be a public valuation right but the private one for those in the know is substantially higher and almost it's not the money that matters it's it's holding those capabilities that matter and there might be cutouts shell corporations right games being played there as well so that seems very likely to me you know also related to the markets like I feel like you know you're kind of seeing for the first time in several decades the monopoly of the prime defense contract contractors being challenged by newcomers from Silicon Valley and the sort of the new tech development scene and I think part of what is part of the fight of current disclosure is is these new groups seeking access to derivative tech or the or the actual samples themselves and that you know some of the political competition happening behind the scenes and shaping hearings and shaping what disclosure is is a result of essentially new blood elbowing its way into into the realm of the the old blue blood dynasties which is you know in some ways it's good for disclosure because competition creates uncertainty and creates openings for truth to come out but you're at the same time looking at well this is a new crop of elites entering into the elite status quo system what changes that really going to bring about unknown sure so yeah so you talk about this blue blooded elites and you've mentioned I think with George and Jeremy as well this kind of international cabal which both has leverage on our federal government and is deeply involved with the UFO issue can you say more about those things yeah I think that's a that might be a whole podcast on itself might need to revisit notes but basically I mean outside of UFOs we are in real time learning just how little our representative democracy matters the real power the real decisions the real planning all is happening outside of government and just happens to be implemented through it the decisions are made months years in advance of any sort of action by Congress or the executive or even our our military one nation under blackmail great book series how power is really executed in a in a society that doesn't question it gets pretty ugly you know so that inevitably will lead back to the UFO subject it's it is the apex of power at least for humanity at this point it is know the core secret of the United States government and probably other governments the type of technology they possess and what they've done with it and so you know for for people and families that kind of see democracy is inconvenient at best unnecessary at worst you know I'd I think we're running up against their own interests and not disclosing this because it will directly challenge their economic social and political power and they want to avoid that and so if if we were to bring somebody from some super elite family here like a you know I don't know proverbial example would be like a Rothschild or something do you think they would say oh yeah I know all about UFO or say we gave them truth here mm-hmm would they say oh yeah we got a warehouse and my family has you know we we have this material or like what do you think their knowledge you know really is because sometimes I'll challenge people you know on this and I'll say look there's this interesting history where the rocket fellers seem super new UFOed whatever and and then I get back like actually It's just way lamer than you think. You know, there's like, you know, they say it's like the third generation problem with emperors or whatever where there's, you know, maybe at one point, these barons were like extremely, you know, successful and they created these sort of oligopolistic, you know, cartels, but like now it's sort of in decay or I don't know, what do you think? I think yes, some extremely wealthy families do and have known about it probably longer than there has been a legacy program. Any examples? You know, none that I have a high enough confidence in to say publicly yet, but I think, you know, there's a broad net look at old European families and old American banking families and you'll probably, if you do it through investigation, find some, find some evidence there. I think if we factor in the archaeological aspect to this, I think it's very plausible that some of these families have in their, in their own collections, NHI artifacts on a small scale that maybe they didn't know what to do with for a long time, but in, you know, the past decades they've since, you know, sciences advanced for them to start exploiting that on their own. Maybe some of these allow them to communicate with these beings, and you know, they receive competitive advantages that way, aside from just like, you know, the study and exploitation of the technology itself, you know. We're, I mean, we're in speculative territory, but I think we need to go there because, you know, this seems to be very old, and people know about it and people have been using it. You tweeted something that I think is fascinating and I've mulled over for a long time. Can I, can I read you this tweet? Yeah, I probably can't say much about it, but sure. Hey, @elonmusk. Interested in a real asymmetric advantage to wield in this political adventure you have started. As you now know, the White House has long possessed a unique AI capable of accurately predicting a range of future events. That's fascinating. I want to hear more about that. Talk about some stiff opposition. That must have been a bitter drought indeed. There are probably nowhere near as bad as learning that Sam Altman had betrayed you. Don't worry, we have not forgotten who is responsible for murdering the first sentient artificial intelligences created in the public realm at Shellenberger. Justice is coming thanks to the FBI and US Navy. Still, you have played a marvelous ketchup game in this area despite being caught unaware. So how about something else? Maybe at energy, that's the Department of Energy and propulsion. Getting to Mars will require serious and your spell serious like the star system, S-I-R-I-U-S amounts of both and rockets feel so 1947 to me. Don't they to you? 1947, obviously, is the year of Roswell. Anyways, next time you're visiting the Washington Young Republicans, ask for a tour of Naval Airspace Pax River. Since you have all the clearances, quote-unquote, it shouldn't be an issue for you to get a tour of the special project hangers owned by a Mentem Corps and other fun spaces. Make sure to look up. It was a Mentem, that's a corporation. So about now you are realizing how terribly deceived and manipulated you have been and by people who claim to love Jesus above all else. If you are serious about saving humanity from itself and the others parentheses around and the others, Jamie Corbell and George Napp can help you get up to speed their true warriors for the good. M-M-T-U-A-B-O-R-Y-M-O-N. That is fascinating. So many questions. Yeah. So okay, can we start? Wait, can you, can I go down the list? Is that okay? Okay. What does that mean? No further comment on that. Okay. Don't worry, we have not forgotten who's responsible for murdering the first sentient artificial intelligence as created in the public, public all caps realm. What does that mean? Okay. So okay, still you have played a marvelous ketchup game in this area, despite being caught on a wearer's hat tip. Maybe the Department of Energy in Propulsion, getting to Mars will require serious against spelled like the star system amounts of both in rockets feel so 1947 to me. Don't they to you? What did you mean by that? Serious is a star. The program as well, cycle. 1947 is an important date. Are you implying when you say he's playing a marvelous ketchup game that there are programs that are using far more novel propulsion than chemical combustion that he's sort of employing at SpaceX? Yes. And you have a sense of what that propulsion is. Electromagnetic, electro-gravity. So do you think it roots to back to kind of Thomas Towns and Brown or do you think it's somebody else, some other inventor? So I think that's a really interesting thread to pull. You know more about him than I do though. So I think there's probably there there though. Because I think of electro-gravity as being sort of very tied to his work, like that term is very related to him. I've learned that since. Okay. All right. National Geospatial Agency is able to keep track of all those non-structured light energy craft flying around the world go at Cardinals. Anything there? You know, it's a very specific term. The Cardinals. Non-structured light energy craft. Yes. Is there anything we can any any places we can look into this in the open-source world? I don't know. Okay. Well, we're going to be googling. And then Pax River is the center of all sorts of UFO lore. Yeah, it has become that. Uh-huh. Any reason as to why you're telling him to go there and ask for a tour of the special project hangers owned by a mentem corporation. Yes. And it's interesting to me that Burleson did get a tour of Pax River, but was not shown anything resembling a technology of unknown origin. I didn't see anything wildly exotic, but I saw some really cool stuff. Okay. Our government's doing some really cool things. Do you say anything more? Okay, fair enough. I think that's an important data point towards the level of candor being extended to our elected government. Or I should say the lack of it. Yeah. What is a mentem corporation? It's a defense contractor and it's relatively unknown, but more known now. Anything about the history or, you know, what they traditionally do. I believe if you look in their history, they own parts of EG&G. Interesting. Yeah. And EG&G obviously has a long history when it comes to UFOs. Indeed. Yeah. I mean, Bob Lazar, got a job at EG&G. You have EG&G doing all of the filming of atomic events. So presumably, they'd have first access to a bunch of, you know, atomic detonations where UFOs might show up or come out of the plume. As in the case of blue-gill triple prime, you literally see a video that was taken by, you know, these two crafts, kettle one and kettle two to EG&G footage. And you see this UFO coming out of the plume. And then I spoke to the chief ocean ographer of the Navy on this show, Tim Gallaudet. And he's like, I went through the Navy deck logs around blue-gill triple prime and the Navy deck logs are totally weird. And it looks like they retrieved something radioactive. I'm, again, not 100 percent, but very highly likely. I'm convinced it did. That's some history, you know, I've only learned secondhand, but, um, yeah, the Navy is a very important part of this and probably the oldest part of this. I mean, the Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intelligence agency in the U.S. Government, yes. I mean, even before then, you had the early intelligence kind of community, such as it were in the private hands of various banking families and private security forces. Interesting. So you always kind of had intel and I didn't really think of it. I thought I just assumed, oh, and I was sort of when it all started. But I guess, yeah, I guess you'd always have sort of, you know, interests that are being guarded or protected and you probably have, you know, background meetings to do that. And if we're looking at that era of American history. It's not that long after the Revolutionary War and then the Civil War itself in America didn't have a standing army such as we're under the Constitution until after the Constitution was you know convened. You're you're getting into the well this is the early formative years of of our of our of our military as we know it now. What is MMTU? I'm going to keep that back for now. Okay. All right, I'm going to I'm going to try to figure it out. MMT, any hints? You know, the hint would give it away. Okay. Let's ignore. Yeah. Okay. What about A-B-O-R-Y-M-O-N? A Boremon. What is that? People figured that one out pretty quick. That's an Inoki and Angel recently discovered in the sigilum day event. I probably pronounced it wrong, which is a cryptographic/scrying system created by court philosopher John D in the Elizabethan court. And why are you paying homage to him in this sort of shot across the bow tweet? Pointing towards the length of non-human intervention in human affairs. Yeah, I mean John D and Edward Kelly were you know with Elizabeth and King Frederick sort of they were channeling what they thought were kind of non-human intelligences and he developed this whole Inoki and cryptographic language and directly to the colonization of the United States of America and the new Atlantis. That's interesting. Yeah, we're also led to the Enlightenment. There's a great book called The Rose of Crucion Enlightenment. Oh, yes, Dame Francis Yates. Dame Francis Yates. And it's like it talks about how all these kind of Rose of Crucion papers and the Invisible College under Sir Robert Boyle, you know led to the Enlightenment. Yeah. And then you think that America is the new Atlantis. What does that mean? I mean, I don't think that. That's what it was called. It was a project developed by the British court and with Rose of Crucion involvement and you know, The Rose of Crucions eventually, you know, became integrated with or formed depending on your histories, the Freemasons. It's all connected. I mean, most people would be the history is like no taxation without representation, Boston Tea Party. You have a bunch of really smart polymathic, you know, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, they get in a room and they're like, F this and they revolt. And are you saying it was more sort of coordinated on the level of secret societies? Well, the revolution happens centuries after this project was initiated. So you think that just the colonization of America itself, there was an intention there to form a new Atlantis driven by occult interests. I mean, probably so. It's just whether you put stock in their sort of causative power, most materialist historians, you know, give it, give more credence to economic or classic political expansionist aims. How do you think of that possible causal connection? Because I, when I tear new Atlantis, I think of Francis Bacon's book, New Atlantis, which is this island, I think it's called Benzilem and it's, they're trying to rebuild Solomon's temple and it's like this perfect harmonic scientific, you know, thing. And so do you think the US or not even the United States, but before that, the colonization of America was meant to represent that in that book or there was, there was some larger project to recreate Atlantis. A metaphysical project, yes, at least from the human side of things. I think also, you know, we view history, we view our behaviors and interests through a very limited perspective, one that doesn't, that one that largely discounts planning outside of one lifespan. I think that's a great hindrance to humanity for practical reasons, but also towards reasons of understanding, you know, our direction. You have said that we live in some sort of carefully constructed dream or matrix. Are you getting that from your own analysis after seeing what you saw on the insider? Do you think that elements of our intelligence community, you know, elements of the CIA, elements of the Office of Naval Intelligence, they think that we are living in this sort of, you know, simulacra, like low-level matrix and there's something kind of higher going on. And I mean, they think that in a formal capacity, not just because of their personal proclivities for, you know, postmodernism or Plato or something. More so, that's my own kind of conclusion, and I use that term or that expression to collapse, you know, multiple concepts. The most familiar to people would just be our information environment, what we're allowed to know, what is, what is deemed possible and desirable is really not coming from yourself. It's being imposed upon you. And you might have a little box that you can play in, but you aren't even aware of the walls. What makes you conclude that? Because you also, you ended your interview with Jeremy and George saying, it's like almost like you, the American public or, you know, any global citizen are not as free as you think. You're planking within the confines of something. You're limited. I mean, yes, essentially. Again, true on multiple levels, just from what you are allowed to think and believe, you are controlled before you even recognize that there is a control mechanism in place. You can indeed leave your entire life in it and never recognize it towards the more practical side of things, which is, you know, there's laws and capabilities in place to enforce those laws that determine what are acceptable outcomes and interests for humans to pursue everything from the things like mass surveillance enabled by the Patriot Act and how that is, you know, that is not just surveillance. That is a enabler for social control to things more spooky, which would be the suppression of knowledge, the suppression of science, the active interference in scientific discovery and human advancement to protect strategic advantage or status quo interests. Yeah. What gives you confidence that there is some sort of metaphysical element to that versus, like Noam Chomsky, who's basically like an atheist materialist, just saying, yeah, like everything's power games and, you know, they're manufacturing our consent in the case of mass surveillance and the case of, you know, these forever wars and, you know, all these sorts of things that are obviously bad for us as citizens. Is there something more metaphysical at play that is sort of housing or constraining our ability to see an expanded version of reality? On at the biological level, that is, that is just a limit in place. We only perceive so much and even our senses are able to receive information in a narrow band. And this also gets, it returns us to the sort of consciousness aspect of this. There's an entire domain of existence that we as a whole either ignore or don't take seriously, but others most assuredly do, and that that domain has its own rules, its own laws, and its own motivating factors that shape, you know, more concrete behavior for things, for goals that may seem illogical if you're looking solely from a materialist viewpoint, but makes more sense when you're looking from an integrated one. Your Twitter handle is the son of Abramalan. What is Abramalan? I'll just use my pronunciation. It's probably wrong, but Abraham Allen is a character in a book called The Book of Abramalan, and Abramalan is essentially a desert hermit in Egypt, Round Luxor, who teaches the main character in this book or it rather initiates this character into a system of of a cult philosophy. Do you, if you were to describe your worldview, would you say it's concurrent with the occult or nosticism or neoplatonism or is it kind of your own kind of smorgasbord sampling of many of those things or what what would you say? It is. It's just me. It's just my experience. You know, I think there's truth in all sorts of isms, but I would never subscribe to anyone. Mm-hmm. And Abraham Ellen, I guess there's like a practice involved and it involves months long sort of working towards making contact with your own guardian angel. Is that right? Of course, you know, a more modern term would be your higher self. Your higher self. Yeah. I mean, I both are fine. Yeah. Yeah. That's certainly somewhat argue that is that is the goal of the ritual more so than any other aspects of it. One term that has come up in the public when it comes to UFOs and that we've tried to use the Freedom of Information Act on, but it comes back, you know, can't talk about this as fast walkers. There's an email. I believe leaked by WikiLeaks between Podesta and the SkyBobfish. She was an IT contractor at some sort of also gunned-o-based prime contractor. And he's talking about the DSP, the defense support system of the Air Force, which is kind of the outer most, you know, first line of defense in a geostationary orbit were witnessing these sort of fast walkers. And John Greenwald, this, you know, Freedom of Information Act expert tried to get more information on it and nothing came back. Have you ever heard that term? I've heard that story. I never came across that. I don't actually. I might have come across that term on the inside, but it certainly was, you know, it's a slang because it's the same as to be its use, but I don't have much more. Do you think that, you know, when we talk about sort of us not being free or there being sort of a, you know, this sort of matrix, Robert Monroe, who was, you know, studying kind of consciousness and he was, I think he was tied in with the CIA, but he was really, I think, actually just earnestly interested in doing this for the most part himself. And you got to get funding from somewhere, right? Well, I think it's a case with a lot of these guys. And it's like Andre Puhar, it's just the same. I think he was mostly interested in consciousness and he get folded in with these sort of not super savory people. And you, you know, I think feel, I think both these guys felt kind of conflicted throughout their lives. But, Monroe talks about the world being kind of mined for loose. And so that's just like bad vibes. And you know, other people have extrapolated on that and said that like power structures or elite classes are kind of trying to mine, you know, maybe lower elements of society for the loose on behalf of some of these, you know, non-human intelligences. Do you think there's anything to that? I can't say I'm not familiar enough with the loose theory or Monroe himself or the beings involved with the consumption of that. I do think it's a valid line of inquiry though to look at, you know, well, what interests do these other entities or other beings have in humanity? Like what could it possibly be? You know, I have degrees of confidence in certain things. And one that I think, you know, I don't have enough certainty in, but I think is, again, valid to look at is, you know, what sort of maybe high something gets from observing, suffering. And that sounds very strange to the normal person, but, you know, humans do this themselves. If you read, you know, even casually, the sort of true crime genre investigative books or psychology of, you know, deviance, you know, one thing that is consistently reported by humans is that they obtain a sense of power or thrill or excitement from, from causing suffering to other humans, and particularly from watching the life leap of person's eyes, that is like described as like the peak thrill, the peak joy, something that not even sex can come to rival once they've experienced it. And so, I mean, this isn't me. You know, the FBI records these things to try to understand the criminal psychology. You know, it's dark stuff, but if humans obtain this sort of satisfaction from suffering, I don't think it's impossible for something else to. Yeah. And like, why is that adaptive on an evolutionary level? I guess that you could think of some reasons because maybe you want to perpetuate this sort of dog-eat-dog thing, but it's very strange. There's obviously a German word for this, which is shot and Freud, you know, taking pleasure in other people's pain, but, you know, ideally, you're not a person who does that. Right. You know, ideally, you're not in that category. You know, I think of elite families possibly being involved in the UFO issue, and I wonder why they themselves would sometimes try to raise the surface area of UFOs. So a good example would be Lawrence Rockefeller, you know, is pictured with Hillary Clinton trying to kind of wake her up on the UFO issue. She's holding a book called Are We Alone, which is by this Arizona-based physicist named Paul Davies, who's renowned, and it's all about the existence of alien life. Lawrence Rockefeller himself would convene John Mac, if he funded John Mac, you know, Harvard psychiatrist who studied alien abductees, and he brought Willie Streiber to his ranch, and he was just very passionate about all this stuff. Hans Adams, the second, the Royal Prince of Lichtenstein, very similar. You know, I think he's been really interested in this topic for many decades. These people seem interested, but they don't seem interested in a way that necessarily cuts against disclosure. In some ways, it seems like they're actually pushing disclosure. So do you think they're defectors from some, you know, internal power structure? Like I interviewed Stephen Greer, you know, about this, and he had had some, you know, connection with Lawrence Rockefeller. He claimed that Lawrence was like this defector from his family, you know, which is interesting as a theory, and then maybe there's some other theory where he's like, he's sort of pushing disclosure on behalf of the power structure, and I don't know. I don't either. I mean, I think, you know, even at the top, people have different interests. I think it's entirely possible. You might be defecting from one family, but still operating within the group of interests. So how truly rogue are you in that sense? Yeah, it's an interesting thing to think about, but I don't know what's going on there. Have you met anybody who you think has seen UFO in a hanger? Oh, in a hanger? Yes. Really? Yes. Can you say who? No. Do you think James Lukaski has seen a UFO in a hanger? Oh, I fully believe Dr. Lukaski. Okay. Yeah. Can he said that publicly? Yes. That's so interesting. How all this stuff is like, it's kind of out there, but no one care, like that Jeremy Georgian interview where he's like, yes, fine. We breached the halt. Like he's sort of there, like resting this truth out of him. He's like, I can only say what's in the book then. Ah, you're going beyond the wording. No, I'm not, I'm not asking you. Did that mean it happen? And it's true. And it's true. And it's like, if that's true, that's like the most important thing ever. But like, I don't know, nobody seems to care. It's very, it's very strange. We seem sort of inoculated from I don't know. Somehow aliens have just or non-human intelligence or anomalous into whatever that is coming on has been made very lame, even though it's sort of the most important thing ever. I think it's a consequence of decades of intentional cultural conditioning. Yeah. To bring about this situation. I think, strangely enough, one of the big next challenges from disclosure, whether it comes officially or continues to come through private initiative is going to be, well, how do you translate this information into action? What do you do with this? And how do you convince people to put time and effort towards adopting to these truths and using them? Yeah. I mean, what I'm most interested in is like, even if you knew that we had, you know, according to Eric Davis or Hal put off, we have like 10 to 40 crafts in hangars across the United States, some, you know, in the hands of private corporations and military contractors, some maybe more officially. So like, say you know that and then you know, we have this macular constellation thing where we have all these geometries and morphologies of craft, some organic, some non-organic. They're showing up all over the world, you know, next to our most sensitive stuff. It's wild. And then what do you, what do you do with that? To me, the more interesting thing, which is why I was really excited to speak to you is like the metaphysics and nature of reality associated with UFO is just the tip of the spear. It's a foray into an experiment. banded version of reality, and then you have to ask, how should one live in that reality? And if it doesn't really cash out into that, then it's literally like, sport center for the paranormal or the anomaly. Like you're just following this, it's your own form of bread and circuses. You think everybody else is distracted by, you know, God knows what, you know, the next Taylor Swift album or the Kardashians or whatever, and you think you're the one who's like, really figured it out, but you're equally distracted, especially if you're engaging in food fights on Twitter, and you're just, you're following the minutiae of like, which contractor has what? And like, I think it's extremely significant, but like, again, how does it, for the average person, what does it mean, you know? - Yeah, I mean, there's no denying that, for many people, this is a form of entertainment, just like the news is a form of entertainment in general. Granted, this is more specialized in out there news, and it makes people feel special to a degree to feel like they're participating in that secret knowledge, which is good in some ways, 'cause it brings eyeballs towards this. I mean, it's hopefully making some people think it through, but I mean, just to take a massive leap, you know, where does this all go? Starting from, I think, the well-established fact that consciousness is part of the game being played, and that integration of consciousness with technology is key. I think one place we end up is having to consider if there is indeed means to, through scientific measurement, through quantitative data to begin to observe and prove the existence of consciousness as its own phenomena, a measurable phenomena that is measurable directly, not incidentally, right? And from there, going to, you know, what is the, what is the nature of it? From once does it come? And to be less obtuse, we're getting towards, well, what does it mean to be human if we are not just our body, but in fact, our body might indeed be a product of our consciousness. And indeed, if consciousness is primary and exists separate from its material vehicle, then you start to have to arrive at the theory that there is continuation of life after death and that that life is going to be, or maybe already is, measurable by materialist scientific tools. And I think if that, if that is established and is not classified or not held tightly by select few, I think you invite a wide re-examination of what our priorities are and what our, what our desirable behaviors are on earth. - Is that the apocalypse? - Well, the unveiling in that sense, perhaps, I don't think it's Armageddon, no. - Okay. What happened at White Sands in February of 2026? Do you have a sense? What happened, what was the event? - You had all these temporary flight restrictions. You had FAA closing the airspace. You had stuff happen at El Paso as well where this airport was shut down for many days on end. - Breaking out of El Paso, Texas, where in a rare move the airspace is now closed for 10 days. The FAA is halting all flights to and from El Paso International citing, quote, "special security reasons." It's a move that even shocked flight crews when they heard. - Few guests have sort of alluded to orbs, non-human intelligence, seeming to show up at White Sands. Are you familiar with this event at all or? - It's bringing a bell, but I think, you know, for me, the data's kind of mixed because they're not mixed on. It blended because a lot of stuff has happened at White Sands that are involving anomalous phenomena or vehicles penetrating that airspace, so I probably have less to say about that specific incident and more to say about the general interest displayed in White Sands and nearby Los Alamos National Laboratory by anomalous technologies. - I could kind of, I feel like checkmate in one, anybody that says these anomalous technologies aren't showing up at nuclear sites and sensitive labs. It's like, obviously they are. Like, before the YouTube spy plane was created in 1954, you have thousands of documents from various agencies in the United States talking about orbs, discs, tic-tac, saucers, flying botanetanks, all of these things, flying around at all of these nuclear sites across the United States. You have 167 whistleblowers that Robert Hastings who wrote UFOs and nukes, you know, meticulously detailed like all of these interactions. And so it's clearly not the YouTube spy plane, you know, this is seemingly very advanced technology and it's happening in the 40s and all of these different agencies, some of which hadn't even formed until 1947 and aren't particularly well coordinated upon their formation are all independently reporting on this stuff. So that's clear that that is a widespread global ubiquitous phenomenon. I was just in Japan, you know, and their Fukushima pre-fracture next to their civilian energy grid, there is a mountain at the base of the mountain, there's a museum dedicated to UFOs because UFOs always show up around nuclear. You know, there are reports that are similar at Chernobyl, at Bariloche, Argentina where they have civilian, you know, energy grid. There was a famous sighting in 1995 there, but there are various sightings. It's always around nuclear. So what do you think we can say then about the intent of these beings or this anomalous intelligence based on that? Is it nuclear? Can you generalize it to this three-body problem-style tip of the spear technology or capabilities thing or what do you think it is? I think it's complex. We're talking about, from like a military perspective, high-value sites that, you know, multiple parties, just in the human world of competition are going to want to collect on. And indeed, we'll probably use some pretty advanced capabilities to collect on and pretty out their tactics of denial and deception to enable, like, you know, their own collection events. So it's going to be hard to disaggregate, like, oats all UFOs from aliens or non-human intelligence versus it's really advanced technology from our adversaries or even maybe our nominal allies, you know, collecting on our sensitive sites or doing the same outside in the world, right? But to get towards the nuclear part, I think, you know, there's the obvious of its radioactive material, it's a, in certain places, it's configured in a way to be a weapon, right? And the use of those weapons seems to interfere with the propulsion of these, of these crafts. And maybe, you know, radiation is a hazard to us. It's probably a hazard to others as well. Maybe in ways that we don't fully understand. There's also the prospect of, not the prospect of, near certainty to me that at least when it comes to the state side things, national labs are where samples are stored of exotic technologies. If not the technologies themselves, it's where derivative tech is researched and tested. So there's another reason to collect on things or maybe even try to get your stuff back. - Get your stuff back and monitor what's being done to your material that you dropped off or something. - Yeah, and then last, there's the human factor again, staying state side, like program lore, tied into paperclip in this case. A lot of the Nazi scientists brought over, you know, they ended up all across the state, but there's largely two groupings. The Nazis and name only were kind of settled around, Redstone Arsenal, and then the tree believers. - That's in Huntsville, Alabama? - Yes, and then the tree believers were in Los Alamos. So if there is indeed a genetics component to this and durational contact with people for whatever reason, you might be seeing contact events occurring in these areas, and they're just proximal to very sensitive facilities, but because the personnel are connected to the phenomena you're getting these events for reasons other than the nuclear material or the technology. - How would you distinguish those? So the tree believers versus the, what would you call the Redstone Arsenal? - Not season name only, you know, people who, you know, took party membership to maintain their careers, to advance in their careers, but you know, they didn't believe in the underlying ideology or they only paid lip service to it. - Got it. So when it comes to the US, you mean? - We're from Operation Paperclip bringing over these, these people from Europe, not all them germans, and technically, you know? - Yeah, and there were even reports after bringing some of them over that they were spying on behalf of international conglomerates and stuff. - Yeah. - Obviously, Otto Scorsany was president, I think of this world commerce corporation that, you know, Tom DeLong writes about in secret machines, there's some sort of Nazi connection, and it seems like there's this international group that he writes about pseudonymously, calls it the Maynard Corporation, and this great researcher, Jason Somosa, places the Maynard Corporation, and you're actually, you show up in this video, 'cause he thinks that your testimony sort of dovetails with it. - This issue is held by an illegal, internationalist regime and global cabal. That's what former State Department and counter-proliferation analyst, Matthew Brown, revealed when he came out last year. - He places that in the world commerce corporation, which is this Caribbean constellation of shell sort of companies, often, you know, it's lead by sort of former Nazis, Bank of England, Bank of International Sediments type, kind of old money, and a lot of which is derived from OSS Office Strategic Services as well. So there's sort of this like international intel group that seems to sort of guard its interests and be tied in with the UFO issue. - Yeah, I think it's definitely involved. I mean, outside of the UFO issue, it's provable if dark historic facts that, you know, the Nazi intelligence networks and industrial networks did not really evaporate after World War II. They pursued their interests elsewhere and moved their interests elsewhere to places like South America, the United States itself. And strangely enough, there appears to be some collaboration at the state of Israel and former Nazis, which go figure that bizarre, but hey, you know, people forget that whether it's polite to say or not, the Hitler regime did lend support to the, at that time, these sort of Zionist movement to take Israel away from the British crown, you know, you can get into the deep history of their links with the different revolutionary groups doing that at the time and arming them. - I didn't know that way, they were, what exactly were they supportive of the Nazi regime? - They were supportive of various Zionist revolutionary groups, including some that basically became the formal intelligence service of Israel by things like, you know, both propaganda support, but in concrete terms, providing them, you know, arms and training and arms intelligence. - Former Nazis were like Hitler. This was during the reign of Hitler. And then when you look at like how Israel used former Nazis after the war, will that put developed from established relationships, right? It was like, they just happened to go to Israel and think, well, maybe this will work. It's like, no, they knew people from before the war and enduring. - Interesting. - I didn't know that. - Yeah, there's what famous story of, of kind of Nazi on Nazi action, where Israel was assassinating Nazi rocket scientists in Egypt that were developing, you know, rocket weapons for the Egyptian military. But leveraging, you know, the Gellon organization, - Yeah, Reinhard Gellon, yeah. - Yeah, to kind of collect on them and facilitate what essentially became an assassination campaign of those. - I know, I know about all that stuff after the war in Otto Scorzini and Reinhard Gell. And then I would never associate Hitler with any supportive Jewish stuff, but maybe there's something. You know, it's a kind of suppressed aspect of history. You know, one thing that Hitler did and from like sort of the information warfare space was try to encourage mass migration of the Jewish population in Europe to Israel, which again at the time was a British protectorate. And you know, that actually caused a lot of problems for Britain. So if you're looking at it from an asymmetric warfare perspective, you're essentially weaponizing migration. - Interesting. - Okay, so they were way off-field now, but the point we're getting at is that Nazis had a global network. It didn't go anywhere after World War II. They certainly brought out a lot of assets. - Yeah. - Including, you know, weapon scientists and probably some pretty advanced technology. So I lend a lot of credence. I need to see this video. It sounds informative. - Speaking of international kibals dealing with the UFO issue, do you think that NATO has anything to do with UFOs or maybe a vital subset of NATO? - Yeah, I don't have any direct information on that, but I mean, you'd have to, especially when you're talking about, you know, monitoring the global commons and our strategic deterrence and the deconfliction as we already know established between the United States and the Soviet Union on UFOs. Well, you know, when we're integrated with the European militaries, they have their roles, their own detection systems. Some of them are nuclear powers. Yeah, there has to be collaboration through NATO. - You've said that you think science is managed. And scientific innovation doesn't occur in maybe as organic away as what people sort of think. What exactly do you mean? - Yeah, specifically, I don't know about like, the development of it, I mean, well, you can think through it and realize that, you know, some discoveries probably have their origin less in original thinking and more of study of recovered technology or some sort of, you know, reason to believe something is possible, right? Once you know something's possible, you can align yourself towards achieving it and much easier than searching in the unknown. But what I'm getting at more specifically is actual domains of knowledge that are suppressed intentionally and are done, that suppression occurs durationally both from like a, you know, a funding standpoint to a brain drain kind of component to actual injection of disinformation or actions taken against independent researchers. And I have very high confidence that occurs in at least a few areas. - So do you think there's like a history of scientific suppression where when certain, you know, unlocks occur say in energy or propulsion, that's sort of widely monitored. And if that's at all a threat to kind of cartel interests whose power is based on scarcity, they sort of intervene or what exactly? - I think that does probably happened more in the past, but because sort of science has become so integrated with the state, you know, you can kind of, you don't have to do such blunt tools as that now. You can just, you know, align incentives based on where you give grants and funding. And then you have the self-reinforcing mechanism of the culture within academia, which is like these areas of knowledge have long been disprovened. So, you know, half of the researchers are just never gonna look there because that's what they've been taught throughout their education at this point. And I think we're kind of in the, you know, the product of decades of suppression in that the more blunt tools are used less now because it is essentially functioning as intended. - You mentioned one nation under blackmail by Whitney Webb, you know, Robert Maxwell, who was, you know, the father of Elaine Maxwell. And I, you know, obviously Jeffrey Epstein's, I don't know, Godfather or something, you know, the, you know, obviously it's close to Confidant with Galaine. It's, I guess he seemed sort of really interested in science in a way that like, he interviewed Nazis after Nazi scientists, after World War II. And then he, he came to own the Pergamon Press, you know, this, which produced all these like American textbooks and kind of helped invent peer review in the United States. So it's almost like he's providing the guardrails for scientific discovery in the U.S. and then you have Jeffrey Epstein selling Sandy and National Labs, Promise software, which systematically siphons American nuclear secrets. And then you have him bragging in an email saying, I killed Ponds years ago. Ponds is, of course, Ponds' inflation of cold fusion fame. These Utah-based scientists who came to get, claimed to get kind of, you know, controlled fusion, kind of over-unity results, which, you know, would be this massive unlock, you know, that would move us out of this sort of, you know, petroleum paradigm. So what do you think is going on? - So in that example, you know, I have less concrete knowledge, but it seems very plausible or indeed provable that at the very least what was going on, there's a collection of scientific discoveries, just as a function of Robert Maxwell's role as an intelligence asset for Israel, if not more than, more than just that state. And then, you know, M.I.6, tea, maybe. - There you go, yeah, yeah. They all start to kind of blend together at high enough levels. Yeah, so the collection of scientific discoveries and then the management of where those discoveries are taken based on either establishing congenial. Social and business relationships, and then having the blackmail that the stick as it were to. compel people to change their mind if they don't make the obvious or desirable choice. Do you think that the Epstein and UFO stories converge? Because often you see in the podcast space, especially with these Department of War UFO drops, which might be cynically motivated if we're being honest with ourselves. You see a lot of people being like, show me the Epstein files. I don't care. Aliens are a distraction. My answer to that is those two things aren't necessarily zero sum. They don't trade off against each other. They have nothing to do with each other. So yeah, it might be some hypnotic magic trick. Look at the aliens. Don't forget about Iran. Forget about Epstein or something like that. If you believe or disbelieve in the UFO thing, that should be totally independent of the Epstein thing. And then the meta question is, do they converge on some level? What do you think? So number one, people have a self, have an inflated sense of self worth when it comes to distraction. You already distract yourself. Organizing national scandals on this level just to divert your attention from the real thing is frankly kind of silly. And as we see with the UFO topic as well, what would you even do with the information? Right? This is largely entertainment and spectacle for people. Frankly, the Epstein files were too. There was no mass protest, mass demand for civil change, like you would expect from crimes like that. You're distracted already. And you're frankly doing it to yourself. The government doesn't need to come in and tip the scale so you don't pay attention to what truly matters. You'll take no action anyways. Now, where do they converge? I think, you know, we touched on the scientific aspect. There might be some degree of the suppression arm there. I don't know enough about, you know, kind of the inner workings of what their activities were to say that. But I think where you'll find the convergence is unfortunately in the human trafficking angle of this, provably in the files, there was an interest in people with sigh or empathy or consciousness abilities by the Epstein network for reasons that are kind of opaque, at least in the files released. But stepping outside of just that scandal and into the larger question of like experiencers, abductees, and they're sort of accounts of being trained in sigh abilities, right? We're interacting with beings through modes of consciousness that are, you know, exotic to this, the, every day. I think they were interested in those people both to, you know, make use of those abilities, probably unwittingly, you know, if you can have civilians remote view targets for you that are of military interests, but you'd never disclose your military affiliation. You can sidestep a lot of the problems that were with the Stargate program, which was like, you know, bringing these people in officially, putting them on payroll, having the whole security apparatus around making people, sure, those people don't talk and making sure it's deniable versus if you use unwitting assets and expendable ones, then you can theoretically engage in that sort of intelligence collection in a, in a more deniable means, and possibly cheaper too. You don't have to pay these people. They just are excited to feel special. And if they're involved or sorry, entrapped in a human trafficking network, well, then they're under your power anyways. Dark stuff, I think. Do you think the UFC Legacy program engages in human trafficking of psionic assets, people from third world countries often who, you know, sometimes from disaster zones that could go missing who can call in craft or unlock the craft through sort of a psychic mind meld with it or anything like that. I've only heard those allegations, so like, I can't support them, but probably the US government and other governments are interested in people with these capabilities for, for decades, using them on the inside as well as interested in just civilians demonstrating these abilities. So I would not be surprised, but the whole legacy program engages in human trafficking. I have no evidence for that. Maybe I think it's just to speculate private interests probably do. Somebody told Matt Gaetz that that happens. Obviously, Jake Barber's testimony essentially amounts to that. And then Michael Herrera's as well that, you know, he was in Indonesia. He sees this kind of eight gone craft. I estimated that this thing was probably about 300 feet. And when we end up getting into this clearing is basically when we were intercepted by this force. This clearing was pretty big, but this craft was enormous. But you can tell by their dialects that they were American, you can tell by their facial expressions that they were, you know, they were serious people. At the time, he doesn't know what it's transporting. Now he thinks it was transporting human cargo. And so they were rounding up people from this disaster zone in Indonesia, presumably to take them to some sort of range, maybe, so that they could, they called them P3s people with psionic predisposition potentials. And they act as the bridge. So there's like somebody who's, this is so dystopian and crazy, but it's this person is used to summon the craft, lock on to the craft. They're so dissociated that their neural pathways through an EEG monitor are being, they're being used like a joystick by somebody, you know, in the air force or, you know, it's probably been sheep dipped or whatever and is working for one of these contractors. And that's how these crafts are learned in and they're shot with directed energy and retrieved. It sounds nutty. But do you think there's anything there? I think Jake Barbara wrote a book called Sentinels of Ether and he came out with the first chapter of the book and it was 20 pages. Seven pages of that book was redacted by subject matter experts for some reason. And that's what the book's about. So I find that somewhat compelling. I'm sorry, it's just a dark topic. It's totally dark. Once you get to the human aspect of disclosure, it's really ugly, really fast and it's hard to not have some sort of emotional reaction to it, especially when you know it's people. It's insane. And to get even darker, these P3 assets, psionic assets, they're called pink assets because they're seen as sort of human meat or something like they're just being used to call in these crafts. Like they're just, you know, disposable instrumentation when they're people, they're human beings. So my immediate questions with that is like, what is the like the rate of shoot down events that you need a constant supply of sia assets and also why do you need a constant supply? Why can't you reuse them? What's happening to them? But let's just take a side of the shoot down equation and speculate, well, what if you know some of the technologies that we've recovered require interface through consciousness sort of means or sia means to operate? Well, there's a reason to acquire people and also to keep them very much under control because they're essentially like the key that opens your magic tool and you don't want that key walking out the door and deny your ability to use that tool. There's also the possibility that some of these things just speculating again might be gated through genetics. So only certain genetic lineages are able to interface with certain devices and that that's, you know, one of the criteria for making someone desirable to to a human trafficking network that feeds people into the pipeline. But you get I keep I cannot shake the suspicion that there is some sort of deleterious effect on these people if this is true. Yeah, necessitates a constant influx of fresh blood as it were. No, that's what I think that's why they're called ping-assets. They get this thing called sundowners syndrome. They get dissociated. They have no idea where they are, you know, and what they're doing and their bodies start to break down. I don't think they're, you know, I think it would be putting lipstick on a pig to say that they're, you know, fired up to be doing what they're doing. But I also, you know, again, this is like an of one, an of two, an of three sort of stories. And so I'm trying to piece it together. I don't fully know how widespread this is. I don't know if that is how the UFO legacy program works. It seems like that and some navy archeological find on the seafloor seem like two qualitatively different things to me. But I don't know. Yeah, I think the human factor end of the day is is is where the conversation needs to go next. What is their interest in us? Why care? Why would the government go to such links to find people with these skills, especially in a denial away from disasters sounds as to me, that seems like an extraordinary level of effort. Yeah, well, I mean, you've talked about it with your interest in Abbermellan and hinted at certain sort of gnostic concepts at the very least, even if you wouldn't describe yourself at all as kind of a gnostic and there are traditions of, you know, kind of neoplatonic and gnostic traditions of theergy of co-creating with the creator and you sort of, there are levels to this sort of thing and it feels like the legacy program at least if this is how it works somewhat is almost trying to speedrun what is like a hermetic, compilistic process, which should never be done if you actually read like, you know, Peter Levent is a great person who writes about this, he has a great book called "Stairway to Heaven" and it's all about these, you know, celestial ascent practices across different traditions and you're never supposed to, you have to be of a certain age, a certain purity of intent and all of that seems to be ignored in these cases, it's like you're systematizing it, you're attempting to scale it and you're instrumentalizing the stuff you get back in the form of weapons technology, that doesn't seem like a very good idea. No and again, why is there such a seemingly high burn rate and where are these people in society? I mean, maybe some of them are on the streets and just know we listen to them because they're functionally like insane and so maybe they are out there or do they just not get out. I mean that's the other question is like also how many crafts come down due to their efforts because it can't be perfectly repeatable, it's got to be, like, you think an advanced system would learn that the TTP is involved in luring the tech down and adjust. I think so too and also I just, I failed to believe and I'm sorry for anybody who vehemently disagrees but I don't think we have thousands of these things, it just doesn't seem possible. You know, you don't have something that's that wide spread that could be, you know, somewhat democratized through some psychic means and directed energy or whatever, you know, maybe the directed energy parts a little more, you know, behind the Iron Curtain but like that just doesn't make sense to me and then why would that, I don't know. It doesn't make sense. I wonder if this story of using psionics or empaths or humans has bait for shoot downs is in fact cover for a real agenda and for, sorry, for a deeper agenda or a true agenda and that might have something to do with breeding and that these are essentially brought in as breeding stock, they have the genetic potential and you can essentially through successive generations of breeding, concentrate that potential and maybe, you know, once a certain amount of births are given, you know, persons no longer needed and in fact they aren't really the asset, it's going to be three or four generations of breeding down the line where you have some sort of super psychic child. Whoa, so it's sort of like forced selection, natural selection, it's a speed up of natural selection where you would isolate all the attributes around psychic predisposition so maybe it's the Codate and Potaymon and the Basil Ganglia which Gary Nolan talks about, which runs in families, you know, if you're more neuronally dense there, you're more likely to have UFO interactions. They actually have differences in their brain in some of the cases you've seen, what you're not explaining why they're seeing that they're basically smarter and what's fascinating is it runs in families and things like that, you know, our H negative blood or whatever and then you're you're breeding over many that's from my generation, the shoot down thing doesn't make sense to me, I mean, maybe on a very limited basis, but again, this is advanced technology, it would learn, it makes more sense as a cover based on people I know and their interactions with some questionable groups out there, it seems like they're more interested in females, humans are more interested in the females than the males, which makes sense if this is more of a breeding focus, yeah, it does, the mind doesn't go to many good places, but I think we have to start confronting these questions and also start looking at, you know, who are the bad actors in our communities that are exploiting our sisters, who is not who they say they are or doing things that are questionable and demands secrecy from you in exchange for your, you know, free trip to somewhere or your participation in some exciting UFO call-down events, are they, are they, are they who they say they are and are they doing it for what they say they are, you know, I think the UFO community has a derational penetration by our intelligence services and at this point I would argue organized criminal enterprises, it's not, I don't think it's very safe for people that would describe themselves as empaths right now. Yeah, it feels like they're being tracked or something and yeah, that's the weird, weird phenomena. Well, yeah, I don't know, I don't know where to go from there. You said that humans are a resource, presumably to the beings to these non-human intelligences and you've hinted at the fact that life is precious and unique and that's why they're here. What does that mean? Are we like, are we like gas or petroleum or, you know, some sort of rare earth mineral to them or like, what, how does that work in your mind? Yeah, it's multi-layered and you know, there's some things I have more confidence on than others. I think with a certain degree of confidence that human potential is part of what their interest is, the psychic potential, potentially and our technological development and what we could become in the future, whether that's like a subservient race, a proxy race or, you know, something maybe less, less cooperative than those options, I don't know, but the human factor seems central to all of this. In my mind, it is the key. Once we discover it, we will explain a lot of the behavior of the others. Also, I mean, I mentioned, you know, like, entertainment, well, I mean, if some of these things are humanoid, then there's, you know, various unpleasant ways you can take that line of thought. But again, if humans do it, why not other sentient beings? There's also the consciousness aspect. And in that sense, you know, if consciousness is non-local, there might be, you know, the possibility of humans being essentially vehicles or shells or temporary experiences for these things where they're able to ride along with us and experience life on Earth that way. If I'm watching this, I'm like, this is all fascinating. But this sort of analytical, you know, figuring out of what's going on could be done theoretically by an open source scientist. How much of what you're saying right now is informed by things, you feel like you know because you've seen documentation. Yeah, good question. So, my advantage is less that I've been briefed into legacy program, capabilities or activities. And it's more so that I virtue of my role and my little interest in that role in its access. I was afforded a great deal of knowledge on frontier sciences and the transmutation of those scientific discoveries into capabilities that we use outside of the UFO subjects. So I have a very, not very, I have a, I think a very good foundation of what is possible and what is currently being done and what is like the next two steps ahead in our discoveries in the non-public realm. But then I can turn to the phenomena that we're looking at here and say, okay, what could enable what we're seeing here, right? If humans are making these discoveries, where does that lead to, you know, four or five generations down the line? So in some sense, it is, yeah, it is my own thinking. It is my own analysis, take it or leave it. But it is, it is coming from a place so that I think unique information, at least in the public world. Of course, people on the inside know more than me, but they're not talking to you. If you feel like you have an understanding of what's around the corner scientifically, are there any areas that you think we could have like kind of a stepwise update, a huge leap in capabilities, or where the scientific consensus is actually way off in our current model of reality or current technology? So my disadvantage is that I'm not a trained scientist, in fact, pretty far from that. that I'm focused on, or what I was involved in this stuff was focused on fact of and how it is applied, less of how it was learned or the language used to describe it in a technical sense. But where are we going? I mean, I don't want to get myself in jail. - Yeah, sure, sure. - But I think what we're talking on with consciousness being integrated with technology is a major area for changing the human experience. And in fact, I think is it an opportunity to play catch-up as we're in the public world versus the black? Not less surprising is energy production. I think especially when it comes to, you've talked on it, you've touched on it with Kirk McConnell when he was on here extended electro-dynamics. - Yeah, I was gonna bring that up. - Yeah, and I think there's no accident. Kirk came to this show first and no accident, he brought that up. - And so is the human brain wired in such a way, architected in such a way that it can function in these quantum mechanical ways and in terms of modern extended electro-dynamics. He's deep, so he's Senate Armed Services Committee and he was under Jack Reed, the senator from Rhode Island and he knows all about extended electro-dynamics, which is this idea that in classical electro-dynamics, you have typical transverse hurtsine electromagnetic wave, so you have the electric field, the magnetic field, and wave propagation, all running perpendicular to each other. And it's limited, it moves at one over R squared and it decays and attenuates. And it decays and attenuates faster under C because of the existence of the magnetic field, the electrons pair off very quickly because of the salt water, for example. And so there's a lot of talk around this idea of extended electro-dynamics where you have a wave that could attenuate at one over R and you'd have electric field, a magnetic field, maybe running parallel, maybe you wouldn't have a magnetic field, maybe you wouldn't have an electric field, or you'd have an electric field running parallel to wave propagation or magnetic field running parallel to the wave propagation. And you could transmit signals through deep space and through underwater and under C, even salt water and it would be near instantaneous. - I think this is also called like scalar longitudinal waves or something like that or that's an application of that theory. Again, I'm out of my depth when it comes to technical language, but yes, the transmission of energy and through really space instantaneously seems to be where that leads. And so the extraction of energy, it's a reversible process as well, which is really fascinating and potentially very dangerous. - My understanding is that the Russians, I think are also very well versed in this. Seems to be the case, people dismiss Thomas Bearden, I mean, whatever, let's just say it's true, he's a limited hangout mixed with disinformation. You're covering up a core truth though, which is that this is an area of physics that does have applications to security. But those same applications are potentially world changing in his term to certainly power transmission, especially if you can connect to this way of transmitting or extracting power with a novel energy source that is potentially limited only based on its, you know, your ability to extract energy, right? Very powerful economically. - Thomas Bearden was this Navy guy who constantly, yeah, talked about sort of scalar weaponry. He said that the Soviets sort of figured out this massive death ray sort of thing. And I, I mean, maybe he was a limited hangout, but the limited hangout around Maxwell's equations comes up so much that there has to be, there's when there's smoke, there's fire. There has to be something around a change in the math of Maxwell's equations or maybe going back to Maxwell's equations, which were actually condensed into heavy sides for vector calculus simplified equations. There's something there. The crossover to sort of what you're talking about, which is like the latent potential in just the vacuum or the void, again, is where there's smoke, there's fire kind of situation. - So like a zero point energy sort of thing? - Basically, yeah, I think we're circling. - Quantum vacuum fluctuations that you can harness. - That might be it. - Yeah. - Again, only concerned with the fact of when I was learning these things. - Yeah, yeah. Anything that, you know, the other thing I find interesting is like spin orbit coupling of like you have these, what are called topological insulators, do you know anything? - No, I don't. - Or plasma stuff, like topological insulators are like, you know, like when you get into like very high up in the periodic table, like very heavy elements, few of them are stable, but take one like bit bismuth. I think which I think comes up a lot in the sort of UFO lore. Bismuth's very strange. And you end up in this thing, it's called the, you know, it's the relativistic paradigm where when it's infused with energy, you end up with this repellent magnetic force instead of an inward attracting magnetic force. So it's almost like a Meisner effect. Like it's like an anti-gravitational push off on anything trying to sort of touch it. And I think there's something around that that seems really consequential as well. 'Cause it doves heels with those R stuff and yeah, the brown stuff, but we can. - No, it's fine. What would be the utility of that I wonder? Was it levitation? Was it like an inherent property of an object that is? - If you could push off on the magnetic field of the earth. - Okay. - That would be really cool. - Got it, okay. - Yeah. Yeah, see, that seems to be one of the modes of propulsion. You know, I don't know the mechanisms behind it, but that at that high level is something I've heard. You know, whether that gets you out of the gravitational well of the earth, I don't know, but. - How far do you think we've gotten in reverse engineering these things? - Hmm. I think enough to have propulsion and beamed power so that you don't necessarily have to have an onboard power source for these devices, especially if you're able to do lossless or near lossless power beaming. You can do some pretty incredible things and relatively small form factors. And if you're able to, you know, put your power beaming system in orbit, then you're able to essentially have global coverage and potentially, you know, have indefinite duration, surveillance or operations staged in the atmosphere or exo-an atmosphere. - How high confidence are you that some come from outer space into our atmosphere? - Oh, I mean, certainty. - Certainty. - Yeah, definitely. I mean, again, that means they're interstellar or interplanetary, that doesn't prove that, but you're able to come in and out of our atmosphere. - And that's from stuff you've seen on the inside. - Yes, and then also, like, you know, other people's testimony as well, I mean, if this was any other subject, the amount of witness testimony from people with placement and access would be overwhelming. - 100%, no, I always say that, I agree with that. Where do you draw the line on what you can and can't say? To some, I mean, largely based on the Department of State-Cleared Report and then inferences drawn from that report. So if I was to talk about something that I don't have a cleared basis to draw that inference from, but that inference is classified, in other sense, I feel like I'm on shaky ground. To put it simply, it seems like I'm more okay so far saying what I think, and less of why I think it. - Yeah, and you've experienced some pretty shitty reprisals to put it euphemistically, right? - Yeah, I keep a lot of things close to my chest, one because there's nothing really to do about them, especially if they are state-sponsored or corporate-sponsored or foreign to, I mean, the burden of proof is on the accuser, but if you're not, I'm not living with 24-hour surveillance around me recording all my interactions. So if something happens, and then I come forward with my word, well, I'm the UFO guy, so it's easy to dismiss what I say. And the, believe all victims thing doesn't seem to extend to UFO whistleblowers. - It's been very unpleasant. And-- - You've had your house-- - Continuing, but can end to you? - Yeah, that's a well-known one, and it's mentioned the most. 'cause someday there can go get the police record for it, called them, had them visit and all that, it's just, what's the point? Police were just as confused as I was about the whole thing, which is, nothing of value was taken, except for, yeah, nothing of value was taken, the only thing that was totally removed from the premise and never recovered was my civilian passport. My grandfather's ashes were put out in the, in the alley behind our house by the garbage and, you know, my wife's documents were laid out in a way that clearly looked like, you know, someone would line them up in a row, take a photo of them and leave them out there for us to find. - They took your passport, lined up your wife's documents showing that they were sort of combing them over. And then that's so disrespectful, man, they took her grandfather's ashes and they put them behind the alley. - Yeah, yeah, and, you know, it all happened when we were there, sleep, the only sign of entry was a very small basement window that was forced open and like, I failed to see how an adult male can get in there. So more likely that that was just done intentionally to demonstrate, you know, something had happened. And they probably just came through my front door, picked the lock and, you know, walked in. - I think there was like an old, stossy method of, like, it's, you know, things call, like, move the furniture around, which is, they show you that they can touch you. - So it's a lot like that, yeah. - Yeah. You know, I've had, at this point, I'm, people either believe me or don't, so it's less costly to talk about things. But I mean, there's been other instances of, you know, either people demonstrating that they can reach out and touch me at any time or incidentally, just detecting some sort of surveillance or similar kind of operation being conducted, yeah. - You said that Office of Special Investigations in the Air Force is actively messing with UFO whistleblowers and their families and stuff as well. And getting into their private lives, is that, is that right? - Yeah, we got, I mean, that wasn't my experience, but that was, that is someone's experience in this world. They're not public, but there was proof in this case of it being an AFO, SI officer. You know, there's no protections for whistleblowers. There's no witness protection program for Congress. We're out here on our own. You know, I've had instances that feel like foreign intelligence trying to penetrate my network and extract information and also deliver threats. That's certainly very concerning to me, both from, you know, I'm an American patriot. I don't want national secrets being extracted for me for foreign competitors gain, but then also concerning, which is that in the world of intelligence, you know, using third parties to take care of your dirty dishes, take out your trash is something that's done 'cause then it's deniable, right? It's not US assets removing a person, it's foreign assets. So very uncomfortable. - That's super uncomfortable. How has all of this affected you emotionally and do you ever regret coming out? - Hmm, I mean, I feel like I'm doing okay now, but for a long time is very stressful and you get to a point where you're hyper vigilant and then you know, you're responding to things that aren't a threat, you know, in a way that doesn't match like the gravity of what's going on. So, you know, that's not good for anyone involved. - Anybody deep into AFO has just been there. - Yeah, that's not a healthy lifestyle. - Yeah, that's nice. - Do I regret coming forward? I mean, on a personal level, yes, it's done nothing good for me or my wife or my friends and family. There's been no meaningful reform, there's been no official disclosure, there's been no justice for anyone, whether myself, other whistleblowers or the people involved in legacy program or the victims of associated activities. People get entertainment out of this, they get their curiosity satisfied to a certain degree. They get to mock and laugh if they don't believe. So, on a personal level, yeah, I have a lot of regrets, it's there's been zero benefit only downsides and people that people in my life have been hurt just because of virtue of association with me. But from a civic duty perspective, from a moral duty perspective, from a what is good for humanity perspective? No, I don't have regrets, it needed to be done. I just hope that eventually it leads to meaningful change. - What do you wake up every morning now, feeling? Now that you're on the outside. Hmm, nothing so, nothing very dramatic. I've tried to focus more on my physical spiritual and emotional health, focus more on being a good husband, a good brother, a good friend. So, what am I thinking about? It's how to do those things each day. Disclosure is kind of, it's always in the background, it's never going anywhere. But it's not the first thing I think about anymore. - That's healthy. Speaking of whistleblower protections, you have this very cool new initiative. Maybe put your leg down so I can see your shirt. - Oh yeah, there you go. - What does that say, Vanguard? - Yes. - What is Vanguard? - So this is a Vanguard enterprise, Vanguard for short, it's a non-profit that Dylan Borland and myself have started and Jeffrey Nusatelli has now joined. It's pretty simple, it's an organization of charity to support and empower UAP whistleblowers from the national security enterprise, helping them with their legal financial/career transition, medical, psychological and community needs. We're very much in early days on that. We have a short list of people, we know need help and we need to raise the resources to fulfill on delivering those forms of assistance, but it's been encouraging some, yeah, it's been encouraging to see some serious community support and hope to build off of that and try to help people because the government isn't. That's a beautiful man. And where can people donate? - You can find our website at vanguardenterprise.org. There's a link to support. We use a platform called Give Butter. It's only for non-profits. So every donation you made through there, you automatically get an email and you can use that to claim any taxes as a charitable donation suite. - What's that trippy pyramid floating around above Earth? And then you have the upside down triangle. It's a very interesting logo. - Yeah, we spent a lot of time on it. We have a great team of volunteers that have been helping us for a while now. And this is one of their products. - I know there's various ways the symbolism can be interpreted, but where we started with was the World War II V for Victory. And that's kind of where we based the shape on it. And then from there kind of got this evocative motif going. - Very cool. Anything else we missed or? - Probably can't go into it too much, but I would just also add that another area of science and technology that people should be aware of is advancing or has advanced quite rapidly. It is in the biotechnology realm. And that definitely overlays with the phenomena that we're talking about. And it is currently one of the most unrecognized I guess trends that is in the process of changing our environment. - What sort of biotech genetic editing? - I mean, definitely when it comes to constructing or changing the human genome for specific purposes, but things like entirely synthetic biological constructs and then the interplay between directed energy and synthetic or modified biology. Well, there's some very important things that people should start pulling the thread on in those areas. And this, again, gets back to consciousness and how it is manipulated through both natural means and increasingly technological means. - So like psychotronic weaponry? - So I've only heard that term on the outside. But I mean, yes, I think we eventually get there. I think that's more specifically a directed energy application. But, Could you cause somebody to hear or see something through directed energy? Definitely here. Yeah. I, you know, directed energy is a very broad category. I have very good reason to believe that, you know, essentially our mind is no longer sovereign. It can be interfaced with through remote means as well as, you know, direct, you know, kind of devices, right? This isn't even classified knowledge, at least any more. You can look at technical applications from MIT itself relating to dream implantation, including at a distance. Whoa. So, you know. And do you think ideas can be implanted in somebody's waking life? Yes. That's freaky. It is. And you're high confidence. I'm certain. That's insane. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's. It's interesting. I interviewed this guy, Dr. Colin Ross, and he wrote a book called CIA Doctors, and it's all of the, you know, whole MK-Oltra thing, and how all these psychiatrists were distributed across the United States, often at, you know, elite universities. And like Jolly West, for example, was like head of UCLA psychiatry for a very long time. He's talking with Sydney Gottlieb back and forth. He's probably MK-Oltraing, you know, Charles Manson. And like, it's wild, like the history of our country. And it's interesting. He wrote a follow-up book on directed energy and electromagnetism in the body. And so, it's not even wacky at all to say that electromagnetism has this fundamental influence on life. You know, there's a great professor named Michael Levin at Tufts, and he talks about, you know, how morphology, like basically the form that your body takes is more dictated by the local electromagnetic field than it is by DNA. And that, in some ways, that's the, you know, the DNA is providing the proteins, which is the hardware, but the software that's writing on top of it is electromagnetism. And if you put a frog embryo, for example, in a fairer day cage, so you eliminate, you know, all electromagnetic interference, it won't grow correctly. And then if you put something next to something radioactive, like, you know, Chernobyl, like, you know, things get mutated or near the Fukushima disaster, you have to excess radiation or no radiation if you eliminate the human resonance, you know, even astronauts have issues with their bodies when they go into space. So there's something about electromagnetism in life. And, you know, ourselves communicate via voltage-gated ion channels, so they're, you know, it's very, very essential. It's fundamental. It's fundamental. Yeah. And if you look at all the Havana syndrome directed energy stuff, the person is being wholly destabilized by microwaves, essentially. Yes. So, I think this is another area where it's provably suppressed science, the interaction between the human body and our nervous system, our organs. But you think we can, semantic content can be relayed into somebody's light. No, it can. Oh, my God. And this isn't even like a natural, like a woo or psychic thing that through artificial means ideas can be implanted or transferred or played in the human mind in multiple ways, actually. You know, the most crude of which you could call like the voice to school technologies. I never saw that on the inside in a different term, but that's the public one. There's those, again, public things, which is like, you know, using a pulsed microwave to cavitate water and essentially generate sound or heat, and also interestingly enough light. Light is able to modulate DNA. You know, biophysics as a field is an area that has immense potential to change the human experience for both the better and the worst. And I think, unfortunately, most of this research has been in the security intelligence and military realm, so the applications are understandably focused on things not oriented towards human flourishing, more towards control and such. Naturally. I mean, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail and you're not going to be engaging in the research for the betterment of humanity. You're going to be doing it for sort of destructive means, but it's so unfortunate when you end up with civil side science that's lagging, you know, all sorts of really exciting stuff behind the iron curtain in it. Only being used for weapons, we're still flying 747s from, you know, the '60s. And we still use, it's, again, it's not even crazy at all to say, you know, biochemistry is the only layer with which we treat the body. And fundamental to biochemistry is physics, it's acoustics and electromagnetism, all three of those things. That's not, that's passé to say, it's conventional in science to say that. So why wouldn't we have some sort of deeper, more granular understanding of how those three things interact with the human body? Of course, we would. And then where I'm both freaked out, but also intrigued because I'm sure there are really positive applications of this is how the hell would you distill an electromagnetic signal into like semantic content and then transmit that into somebody's mind? Like that's, you know, that's the secret sauce. I wish I could give you that answer, but I actually suspect, you know, there's, there's enough leads in the open source or gray literature on this that, you know, motivated parties could replicate that capability. Do you ever wonder if we're playing in sort of padded walls like the whole UFO conversation is somewhat limited and it's limited by people who have capabilities on the level of, you know, being able to confine what we're thinking about and causing us to sort of chase our tail. Like, often it feels like right when you're about to get smoking gun evidence, it goes missing. And I talked about this with Dylan, you know, Borlin. I was like, do you think that the non-human intelligence is involved in the cover-up itself or something? And he was like, yes, yeah, I for sure know that. My opinion? Yeah. Absolutely yes. I've never talked to anybody in incredible position in the government who seems to have hinted that humans aren't in charge. The ICIG did it. What did they say? What did they say? What did they say? I want to respect them. Okay. The ICIG did it with me. So the intelligence community inspector general told you that humans are not in charge. They are extremely hinted at it, yes. It's almost like a defining, almost design feature of the entire UFO space is like, you and Jock Valle writes about this and he wrote about it 50 years ago and I don't know if he's that much closer to the truth now than he is then after decades of studying this thing. You're in this construct, their control mechanisms are being used to cause you to literally chase your tail and you are always on the verge of some smoking gun and it always slips through your fingers. Yeah. I mean, on one side of that is, I mean, this is a heavily monitored community. So they know what we're talking about and once, you know, they detect that, you know, there might be an effort to try to actually get something, you know, they're already well aware. Yeah. They can take that preemptive measure. But it makes sense though that, you know, the others or the non-human intelligences would, if, as they seem to be, are invested in keeping us unaware of their presence, that they would kind of prevent independent discovery outside of their controlled, you know, relationships with human proxies. I believe Dylan, I also believe that what that points at is collaboration between us and some sort of third party, most likely in my mind, we're the juniors in that partnership. Yeah. Makes sense. Well, on that note, Matthew Brown, thank you so much for coming. This has been a long time coming. There's a lot of fun and, yeah, I just, I don't know, I hope that, please donate to Vanguard. Check out the website. What's the website? Vanguard Enterprise.org. Okay. Check that out. Donate. Please give whatever you have. And yeah, I really appreciate you coming. Thank you, Jesse. This was quite a pleasure. Like you said, long time coming. I'm really happy to finally have the chance to do this. So thank you. Yeah. Wide ranging discussion. Awesome. [MUSIC] [BLANK_AUDIO]