to the best of our ability, by estimate, the like every billion dollar in TVL translates to approximately three billion dollars in revenue to the protocol. Nothing said on the Edge podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Welcome to the Edge podcast. I'm DeFi Dad here with Nomadic. Today's show features the co-founder and CEO of Pendle, TN Lee. This is our second episode in our new series called Revenue Meta. TN, thanks for joining us. How are you doing? I'm super well. It's been a good start to the year. Thanks for having me. So you just mentioned before we got started here. You hiked Kilimanjaro, so that's a hell of a way to kick off the year. I'm really glad I did it, and I'm really glad my wife was there with me, my brother as well. Yeah, I'm just not so sure if I want to do another hike this year. Maybe we'll give it a break and then get back to work. But otherwise, like, ceiling really, really recharged. If you're like gentlemen, by the way, I do have a wife. Yeah, one of the only members that's kind of those. But I have a wife. She's a real lady. So yeah, I I was thinking about this before you got on. This will be your third time on the show. The first two times were more our longer format, and we've actually had Pendle on. It's almost six times if you include our yield talks format. So you've been on the show a lot, but even still, I think it's worthwhile just taking a quick step back before we get into all the revenue stuff and looking at the two different business lines for that accrue to the Pendle token and more big news on the Pendle token that we'll talk about a little bit later in the show. But yeah, take us to maybe like a 30,000 foot view. What is Pendle V2? What is Boros? They're two kind of separate things, just high level to start. Yes. So Pendle ultimately is a rate trading product. And so we have, at this point, two products, V2 being the more that the one that has been around for a longer period of time, it is it it it. Pioneer popularized the PTYT concept. Effectively, it allows for, on the one hand, users to obtain fixed rate by buying a principal token. And then on the other hand, it allows for users to speculate on the yield by acquiring the yield token. So the more popular use case for V2 is the points trading. So this was something that that became a lot more commonplace at the start of 2024. And it's still like one of them. It's a more popular use case for for Pendle V2. Now, the other product Boros is about five months old, also waiting around the same premise to allow rates to be traded for fixed rates and and floating rate swaps. Boros use cases focuses more on funny rates. Generally, as of now, it's only for funny rate. But generally, I think Boros is a more suitable instrument for the speculation of rates that fluctuate within a very small band. So for example, like POS taking yield could be another another category of rates for us to work on and then overnight finding rate, etc. Yeah, but but the main difference between these two, I would say like revolve around the use cases. So with V2, most of you will know it to be the points trading vehicle. With Boros, it focuses on funny rate and the main difference here from like technical standpoint is that it allows for margin account because of the margin account like users can also adopt leverage on that position. So it's more capital efficient. Accountable is the new standard for real time financial verification. In crypto, financial health still runs on screenshots, lagging audits, and blind trust. But accountable changes that powered by the data verification network, it proves assets and liabilities privately across wallets, exchanges, custodians, and banks. Accountable already secures over $2 billion in verified assets across 115 chains and over 90 data sources. 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Learn more at neutral.fi. Let's dive into 2025. Somebody from your team shot me over a few stats, a bit of your year-over-year growth. It looks like numbers grew massively in 2025. You had 100% increase in TVL, revenue, trading volume. Is that roughly correct? That snapshot? Maybe let's get your insight on how 2025 went for growth for Pendo. In short, from numbers to expect this, they've grown substantially. TVL grew from the peak of $6.9 in 2024 to $13.4 billion in 2025. Then revenue from a swaffy perspective is almost doubled. In all, last year has worked out quite well for us. We made a very conscious effort to focus on enabling the stable quality synthetic dollars, like just focusing on points of these forms of assets and be really, really deliberate in identifying high quality assets and have them listed on Pendo. The other thing that was quite instrumental in enabling us to grow at that skill was opening up of the protocol. We were able to list assets much more quickly compared to 2024. Now, instead of us geeking everything, we opened like we made the listing permission this. As long as the team identifies themselves to us, fill up a form with the basic information, we could get them marked up fairly quickly, usually within a week, and that we also provide guidance advice on how they can bootstrap liquidity. We also now have formulated a group of aggregated group of liquidity providers who are always on the lookout for yield opportunities. And at whenever we have new and promising markets listed on Pendo, we would just promote them internally among the easy liquidity providers. So that helps accelerate this growth. My initial reaction was thinking 2024 was so big due to the whole meta around being able to get exposure to a token pre-TGE through YTs. And I was frankly surprised that you grew that much in 2025 just because 2024 was so outrageous. So, anyways, kudos on that. Why don't we talk more about how do you make money? How does Pendo the protocol make money? Sure. So, Pendo across the two products, we have like the revenue models fairly consistent. So there's always a swaffy component. Basically, whenever there's a trading activity and like whenever user settles a trade, then there is a there's a small fee that goes to the protocol. And at the other one is something like a settlement fee that is a clip on the TVL or open interest in the case of boroughs. Yeah. So, watch these two. So, the reason why we wanted to have these two components as our revenue streams is so that we can benefit from firstly, the growth in TVL. And secondly, with more trading activity, we can also benefit from facilitating transactions. Okay, so follow up to that. I think I think a lot of our brains are still attuned sometime to looking at TVL and then making that the best kind of barometer for like how a protocol is doing. But with what you just said, it's almost like maybe volume is the bigger driver of what brings revenues to Pendo. Is that a fair statement? So, I'd say at this point in time, it's almost 50/50. So, because right now, it used to be that TVL was the major contributor of revenue to the protocol. But now, we are also making the liquidity work harder. So, more transactions can take place through it through the AMN and beyond that. It's also like the bigger quantum typically happens over the limit order already. So, it's like basically with the same amount of liquidity, if we were able to facilitate the bigger volume, all this contributed to the liquidity. That's right, creating quality. But I think to your question, with every, like, this is to the best of our ability by estimate, the like every billion dollar in TVL translates to approximately three billion dollars in revenue to the protocol. Yeah, and worldwide. So, some months, we have more TVL than others. So, yeah, this is to the best of our ability, a very high level estimate. I don't want to ignore all of the other money that Pendo is making for LPs and PT holders and folks that might hold a YT. Do you have any rough numbers on those? How much money was made in 2025, maybe by PT holders or LPs is a great way to obviously participate in Pendo. I personally really like the stable coin-related pools just because I think there's near zero and permanent loss if you participate in those. But yeah, anything there to share, TN. I don't have the exact breakdown of these like the LPs earnings. But with respect to the amount of PT that we settle, as of last year, it was approximately 45 billion dollars. So, what that means is like, whenever there's maturity, yeah, in every gate last year, approximately 45 billion dollars were settled. YT was just difficult because they're in points and a lot of them are not realized in tokens yet, so they're kind of like real price. Yeah, yeah, a bit fuguese there, matching some of that stuff up. Time will tell. So, you guys have a good internal dashboard that kind of tracks your revenue. Well, maybe flash that on the screen. It'll definitely be in the show notes, but I was taking a look at it before this call and there was a period of time. I think so is October 2025 where it looked like one of your best months. So, you brought in like $6.23 million and obviously you can't just, you know, ARR anything and project out, but that was like north of a $70 million run rate if you extrapolated, but the preceding months leading up to that. So, you had five months of month-over-month growth from June 2025 all the way to October where every month was just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And then, okay, so it's it's looking at that chart. What I took away from it's like, okay, this is the October 10th, you know, flash crash. Basically, it was was my analysis from what I saw there because there was a pretty big drop off from October 2025. What like, was that what it was that was a big factor? And I guess what I'm trying to ask to is like, how did that October 10th incident affect Pendle specifically? I'm imagining it was quite pronounced, but yeah, yeah. So you're right in that October 10th that event was a major major reason for why activity drops from the peak. So, as we observe, we were like during that period when that incident actually happened, we were having a, yeah, we're just doing a team off-site, so we have a lot of discussion around that. But basically, our observation was said following the liquidation event, market became a lot more bearish, a lot of funds pulled liquidity out, tried to rescue, secure that positions, whatever it is. And then as a result of that, yeah, just usually with like a bearish sentiment, you'll compresses across the board. And that also means that yield offerings on Pendle V2 became less attractive and less competitive as a result. So, with less, like lower APY, funds are less reluctant to, because there's not enough premium to justify that additional reward, that that marginal reward. So, funds would rather not put their money into DeFi protocols, maybe rotated to some other segments that are performing better outside of crypto. So, that was something that we speculated on. As of now, we're still trying to recover from the effect of the October incident. Yeah, but I think over the course of the year, depending on capitalist events, I think we should see growth in the sector. Yeah, this reflects my experience as an on-chain lender. I reacted to October 10th with pulling my money from lots of different protocols. I was still farming a number of PTs, and yeah, at least a few of those, I exited in profit and just thought, you know, I can always come back to these. All of this is spooking me a bit. I'm a little bit worried about what else I don't understand in terms of like the daisy chain of liquidations and blow-ups that was happening. So, I do think what happened was ultimately healthy for the market. It sucks for people to lose money. I'm still not totally sure how much money was lost in the aftermath of October 10th, just in terms of the stream finance debacle and everyone that was affected beyond that. But I want to say it was maybe 500 million to upwards of a billion versus, you know, whatever losses were incurred on centralized exchanges. But anyways, we're past that. I think the market has reset. I do think we're we're unhealthy or place them who are back in October. Speaking of market prices, the Pendle token is currently sitting at around $2 with a market cap of around $350 million. The fully-deleted valuation is right around $586 million with the all-time price of the token being around $7. So, you had this VLOCK mechanism for Pendle. 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[email protected] and access the decibel test net today. So, I look at this change. Basically, I think for context, we're going to move away, transition away from V Pendle to a new model called S Pendle, which is a stake handle much simpler. But we can come to that. Now, to your question about our view on V Pendle at this point in time, I just think that given our scale of operation and the current climate, V model might not be the best model for us to continue to grow upward. It was helpful when we were trying to bootstrap liquidity when we were operating at a smaller scale. But now that we are no longer just a new protocol, we figured that we had to change. So, basically, I think of it, like there were probably three different aspects of where we thought V Pendle was inadequate in serving our current need. So, firstly, V Pendle was supposed to, like, one of the purposes of V Pendle was for LP yield boosting. So, if you have an LP position and if you mix lock your V Pendle, then you would have additional yield up to two and a half times more than those who don't lock up those who don't have V Pendle positions. At the moment, we observe that V Pendle holders, they're not, sorry, both of the TVL on Pendle now are, they don't have too much of an overlap with V Pendle anymore. So, the amount of people who mix boost is actually quite insignificant. So, that is not really a meaningful use of V Pendle just because people don't care anymore. And then a lot of times, yeah, that also translates to liquid lockers with their N Pendle, E Pendle, and S Dependle in place. They're also not contributing too meaningfully from a TVL standpoint to the protocol. So, we did think that the V Pendle boosting makes too much of a sense at this point. Secondly, it's that part of our vote. So, protocol generates revenue and then in the context of V Pendle, all this revenue gets distributed back to the voters. If you vote correctly, then you get a very healthy AQI. If you vote on the wrong poll, unfortunately, the return is going to be quite marginal. So, that means every week V Pendle voting becomes somewhat of a prediction market. If you're good at it, you are bound to get very healthy return. If you're not so good at it, no matter how much V Pendle you have and you vote for a pool of generate, say, like $10, it's going to be very, very bad return for you. So, we want to, like, we observe this to be definitely an avenue that can be approved because we've also gotten quite a lot of feedback from users saying that they want that healthy AQI, but they are not sure how to do with the votes. And then the other part is, like, because of V Pendle voting, there's a private economy that happens around like the liquid lockers. So, one thing that we thought needed significant improvement was actually on the incentive channeling because the outcome of vote is the incentive to the respective pools. And we noticed that at one point in time, more than half of the incentive that we have on a weekly basis goes to the bottom 10% of the revenue, like fee generator, to the protocol. So, in other words, if we had just, if we, like, if we didn't need to incentivize this pool in the first place because they are not giving a lot of revenue to the protocol, that means we're not using the incentive appropriately to grow the protocol in training activity or TVL. So, this is one thing that we wanted to fix. And then, yeah, last, yeah, I think it's just complexity, right? With the vote, people just giving feedback that, yeah, it's not the most friendly. They just want to stay, forget, and then be confident. Exactly. And, like, kind of contextualizing all of this in this revenue meta aspect, what you just laid out and walked through, like you said, is a little complex. And I think you kind of created this almost hierarchical structure where a few people really tuned in. We're getting a lot of rewards. But then, maybe some people that weren't really contributing to the protocol, we're also getting rewards. And I think what you're trying to create is more of like a flat structure where, hey, every participant just gets kind of like their equal share of the protocol's revenues going forward. So, maybe, maybe that's the segue into S-pendle. So, we're going to go from V-pendle to S-pendle. Give us the breakdown on what S-pendle is and what it'll do for, for, you know, accruing value to token holders. Sure. So, S-pendle is short for it's, like, state pendle. Functionally, it is, it is, it is, yeah, a pretty straightforward simple value of cruel to the pendle token. Now, in the past, when we have V-pendle, the fees are distributed to the V-pendle holders based on their voting outcome. Here, instead of distributing the fees that the protocol generate to, to the voters, with S-pendle, that fee will be used to purchase Pendle. And then that would be the reward to the S-pendle holders. Yeah. Much simpler. And then on top of that, V-pendle has a lot duration between one weekend, two years. Now, with the change, the unstaking period is 14 days. So, much more palatable for more people. One other difference is that V-pendle was previously is, is, is, as of now, V-pendle is still non-transferable. So, once you're locked in, that's, that's pretty much it. And then you have to wait until your, your tenors is up before you can be deemed for the underlying. But S-pendle is going to be fungible transferable token. So, it can potentially be used for various other DeFi use cases. With S-pendle, will we be able to potentially borrow against that then considering the different DeFi use cases? Yes. Okay, that'll be very helpful. Yeah, that's very important to, I think, all of us as like long-term holders being able to borrow against that. There's another detail here that we noticed in the existing V-pendle dashboard. There are tokens that the protocol accrues by listing certain markets and, you know, providing, you know, liquidity for these different protocols, whether it's pre-TGE or post-TGE. I think Athena's been a major token that's been distributed through Pendle. What happens with those tokens? Like, does, does anything change there? How does the protocol handle that with S-pendle holders? Yeah, so that still goes to users like S-pendle holders and kind. We have no rights to liquidate these reward tokens into Pendle and distribute it to users so that that remains consistent. I don't want to add something though. I just recalled because now we have, by now, because we've been distributing fees, protocol revenue to holders to V-pendle and eventually with S-pendle, so we intend to keep that revenue portion distributed to holders. However, the fees and revenues from Boros will be, we're still undecided on what to do yet because we recognize that, like, basically, the fees from Boros does not go directly to S-pendle. It will stay within the protocol. We'll use it to reinvest in growth until we find meaningful product market fit, like that will likely be the case. We just don't want to overcommit to a certain value accrual mechanism before we can generate revenues sustainably and then before we generate a meaningful amount of fees in order to either buy back or some other forms of value accrual back to the token. I want to just a couple more things just on this S-pendle and V-pendle before we move on to a couple other questions, something that I was curious. Actually, myself as a market participant, I've always been eyeing up Pendle to buy, but part of the friction for me was that locking mechanism. I'm like, "Well, do I want to buy it because I don't want to lock it, but if I buy it, I should lock it," so I always had this inner conflict because I would feel like if I just bought naked Pendle, I wouldn't be getting the full extent and power of the V-pendle side. I think what you're doing with this 14-day online, you're basically locking yourself into a 14-day decision versus a potentially two-year decision, which I think makes that immediate decision so much easier. I just think you're going to get way more uptake and really ownership of the token. My point in this was like, what was the percentage of locked Pendle that you got to, and then what do you first see the percentage of S-pendle that you'll get to? Have you kind of mapped that out yet? Yeah, so as of now, probably as of last year, it was a bit more than 20% locked in V-pendle. We suspect that with the transition from V-pendle to S-pendle, we might see the percentage increase from something like 23-24% to potentially increase in like 50 to 100%. 100% would be extremely bullish, I believe, but 50 is probably a more likely outcome. Tien, can you just walk me through what will the front-end look like then for us if we want to stake Pendle? Like, just walk me through any other options or decisions we'll have in front of us. I come to the platform, I've got Pendle, I'm going to stake it, is it now by default locked up for at a minimum of 14 days to unwind? Yeah, what other choices do I have here to? How else do I make the most of my S-pendle? That's right. So when you have Pendle, there's only an option to stake, right? So you stake it. If you want to un-stake it, you can do so immediately, but that redemption like that un-stake period is 14 days. So in the meantime, once you stake, you're going to get you stake Pendle, you get S-pendle back, your S-pendle is you want, you don't mind waiting for 14 days, you can join the queue or if you want to exit immediately, there is a secondary like you can sell it, secondary market. Okay, switching gears here a little bit, I'm kind of curious how big the Pendle team is. I really don't even have a benchmark for how many people it takes to run what you're doing. So I guess how big is the team now? And then I'm curious if you think you need to hire a bunch more people to achieve your goals or if you're sort of at like a steady state these days. Yeah, so we are now a little over 50 people. We have increased in like the, in the number of headquarters more significantly in the last six months or so because we were expecting more effort deed it to operate like two products and it's important that we segment out team members to focus specifically on B2 and Boros. Because like these two products are essential, they serve very different use cases and we expect them to continue to grow potentially quite independently of each other. So B2 is more mature. A lot more effort is now on how we can refine the product UI UX, how we can find new category of markets to get to get involved in and then more BD efforts with respect to Boros. Now it's still a lot more like a lot more of our headcount is is a lot to the risk like trading department. I like to find interesting data points that we can potentially focus on. For example, could there be new opportunities and equities perp or ideas of that sort? Yeah, just to help us get get into like PMF. And then one other thing that we're doing now that that's also been contributing some traffic and trading activity to the Boros platform is to facilitate some form of very basic form of OTC transactions. Because people have come to us indicating interest to short rate. So we will help look for potential long interests and then just put them together to short out the size as well as the rate and have them settle at Boros. Tien, is your customer base, do you think it's still heavily weighted to on-chain defi-natives? And by the way, maybe I'm wrong on that button. I assume that that was the bulk of folks that are using the platform. And if that's the case, I'm wondering is the customer base shifting at all to institutional funds or more of the liquid on-chain funds? Basically, what's your target customer for 2026? I want to say at this stage for the two products they have pretty different profile of users. For Boros, because it's more mature now, it has handled some pretty size of a lot of amount of volume. The users are now becoming a lot more, they're not just defi-degents. Proper institutional users are also using V2 to get their fixed rates shorted out. And then at the same time, created more opportunities for those smaller, sophisticated retail users to express a view on points. Boros is fairly new. Right now, we are seeing some of the V2 users starting to get involved in Boros. But I want to say at this point, it's still confined to the more sophisticated users. Typically, they work or they're affiliated with hedge funds or like the prop shops. They're perhaps trying out Boros, trying to get a better view and try to seek alpha within that Boros instrument. And then if it does make sense to them, maybe they can deploy bigger capital into the platform and try to generate more wealth from some of these the opportunities. Maybe just sticking on this 2026 tangent, do you have any personal or any team internal goals of, hey, we want to hit this amount of TVL this year? Or maybe it's, hey, revenue growth is our focus? Or maybe it's volume? Also, like if you do, what do you need to do to achieve these goals for the protocols? 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We believe that the number of new assets in this segment of the market is not going to decrease. We identify real-world asset yield opportunities to be a new category that we need to get involved in. So if we want to get higher TVL compared to the year before, then we need to make sure we continue to stay relevant in the synthetic dollar stable coin core. And then on top of that, we also need to start to get involved with the real asset operators. So these are the likes of securities, centrifuge, and then the permissionless rappers that help take the permission assets and make them permissionless. So these are different types of operators that we have been, we're still developing relationship with, like we're connected, but now it's really figuring out a good go-to-market strategy to make sure like this sector that we want to get involved in become as big as possible. And then for Boros, now we're just starting to scale up operation and open interest is looking pretty healthy and over 200 million. For this, I think the OTC is potentially one of the bigger growth fri-ver for us. So we need to start to grow our user base by reaching out to them more directly. So a lot more BD efforts, less, I'd say like we, we will invest more in BD, maybe not so much on marketing, and just focus on one or one more exclusive kind of relationship to build up that traction. Once it gets to, I'd say like 500 mill or a billion dollar in OI, then we'd probably have to change our tactics a little bit. And in terms of these sectors, we want to focus on. So within promoting cross exchange, arbitrage opportunities is quite a fair bit. So it's really increasing the number of markets and the number of venues that we support on Boros so that the cross exchange arbitrage opportunities can be can be can be taken advantage of much more quickly at Boros. And equities perp could be a new segment that we we what it's it's definitely a segment that we want to get involved in, but the skill of which I think can be much bigger than them, we currently estimate. I mean, we launched an Nvidia market yesterday. What it does is, yeah, like I think now there's a pretty interesting use case for for for like traders alike, right? They they they have the as video equity, they short the perp. And then with their funding rate, they locking the lock into funding rate on on boros. So that's for effect hedge. And that scene strategy can be replicated to many many other equities. Oh yeah, that could definitely be a golden era for boros potentially with with all of these equities coming on chain and just this like I honestly didn't know there was this big of an appetite for equities on chain, but you know, the 24 seven three six five element and then with leverage are just kind of total game changers. Um, one other question, last question you you actually kind of answered it, but I just want to maybe get it a little bit more clear. Um, I so I always kind of view Pendle as like a bit of a mini prediction market in a way, just because I think the things I see that are starting to pop off and Pendle, they're typically early like the LRT stuff was so early. I think a lot of the yield bearing stable coin stuff was really early. So because of that, I feel like whatever you guys are doing over there, you have a finger on the pulse of like the what's next for crypto and you tease some of them in your answer, but maybe maybe what sectors are you most excited for for 2026. And again, I think you already went over a couple, but like what what do you see being elevated on Pendle for 2026? Yeah, I could be a bit more specific here. Uh, first thing is I believe that rates trading can become much more mainstream, so that is where boroughs is operating in my view is that right now like with many, many new, like new asset new markets, right? Typically spot and then you affect the pert market. So with boroughs on top of purp, there can be a rates market. So it can all happen in fairly short period of time, almost in conjunction. Whenever a new asset gets launched or released, uh, purp at a rate market, just to show up, um, almost quite instantly. So, um, that aside, I think real will asset is also a sector that that we're looking to get more involved in, but it's not just like I think there's a sequence on how things can potentially play out. So a lot of the token issuers at this point issue permission assets, but a lot of the five protocols can only operate with permissionless asset. So there exists a gap here where certain protocols can potentially fill, right? Like I think they would very likely be stable coins that are backed by real asset yield. Um, so the yield source real asset, but the stable coin can't go about permissionlessly or synthetic dollar go about permissionlessly interact with protocols like pendulum or Ave. So we'll see more of that. And I also think, uh, if not, if not, since if they don't exist in a form of synthetic dollars of stable coin, then I think they can, they can just be wrapped by, uh, uh, uh, an intermediary so that the assets can go about permissionlessly, um, yeah, to and interact with with various defy protocols. So I think, yeah, so in terms of sequence, right? While real asset is a very, very big category that eventually, I think it will, it will become more relevant in defy. I believe that from like sequentially, um, it will start with those operators that are feeling that get first, um, the ones that are trying to bridge the permission asset with permissionless protocols. Yeah. And then the one other sector that I'm, yeah, very, very excited about is equities perk because I think like you said, it creates very different kind of value proposition to traders. And we want to be able to, with boros, we want to be able to, to, uh, capitalize on that opportunity, that incoming opportunity and do some great stuff there. I know this is revenue meta, and I don't want to go into like our long form interviews, deep dives on Pendle and other protocols. But I feel like I'm doing a disservice if I don't ask a follow-up here on boros. So we're seeing all of these, uh, equities get launched as perps on chain, you know, whether it's, uh, ostium or hyper liquid. And anyways, we're, we're trying to pay attention to all the different opportunities there. Can you just dumb this down for me? We're likely going to see funds that are long, let's say in video, the stock, and then maybe they short the perp. And then they're potentially collecting the funding rate there. If the, if the funding rate is paying shorts, but let's pretend in this example that the funding rate is instead paying longs, then would they be able to like take advantage of boros to be able to basically hedge that out or be able to turn that into a profitable basis trade? Yes. So if the funding rate is positive, then, uh, sorry, if the funding rate, if the funding rate is, um, is, is, is in a negative territory, then it would make sense for users on boros to long the rate when it's slope. When they long the rate, they express a view firstly, and they're also at the same time locking in the, the funding rate that they would eventually pay. So, um, they're not exposed to the funding rate volatility anymore. Because usually, what happens is, let's say, if the funding rate is slow right now, if it goes up, then they might end up pay more. But if they long it at, at, at when the rate is slow, then they don't have to worry about the fluctuation for the Dow. So cool. And, and yeah, that's even a better example. Uh, we've heard, uh, you know, complaints or criticisms that these, these new equity perps on chain are really cool. But the problem is is, you know, the, the funding rates can be outrageous. I think on some hyper liquid market and video, in order to long and video, it was like 30, 35%. But if they use boros, they could, they could actually like lock in that funding rate, uh, and basically make that trade more profitable now using boros. That's right. Yeah. If the, if the funding rate drops to, let's say, like 5%, and they can just lock it at 5%, even if it goes up to 40%, 50%, in the next hour or so, doesn't affect them. So cool. And we all believe this is going to be a big theme. And in the new year, uh, we're, we're seeing all these different perps markets launch. Uh, we just saw, I think it's Nvidia just launched through, uh, markets on hyper liquid, nomadic. Is that correct today? Tesla did Tesla launched today. Tesla just launched. So yeah, really, really promising, uh, what boros could provide for more of the adoption of RWA perps in the new year. Uh, but guys, I think this is a great place for us to start to wrap up. So, um, first, I want to remind our audience that they can learn more about Pendle by going to Pendle.finance. They should follow Pendle on Twitter at Pendle_5. TN, thanks so much for joining us. I want to give you the final word. Yeah. No, thanks, thanks for, thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to be here. You guys always ask good questions, and you're making me feel so welcome. So yeah, I, I, I truly appreciate that. Thanks everyone for tuning in to stay up to date with future episodes, plus get expert tips, strategies and exclusive content. Subscribe to our free newsletter at thehyphenedge.xyz.
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