Pawani on Mental Health, Parents and Gratitude

Thanks for tuning into Small Big Wains, a window to the world of young, ambitious problem solvers. They are makers, designers, builders, hackers, scientists who heard they are in a wife and amplified it. To learn more about our guest, interview the highlights of this episode, head on over to fbw.hvj.coach. Our guest today is Pavni Khandelwal, the founder and CEO of Atman Irbher, which is a social venture enabling the possibility of daily mobility for women. Not only this, Pavni also runs two nonprofit organizations. There are some things which lose all attention because of the severe stereotyping we are subjected to and don't attempt to do enough to understand the serious implications that has. For example, we treat masculinity as mobile and feminity as static. Individuals such as Pavni have the boldness to attack this categorization. Atman Irbher, her company, has demonstrated success by training more than 9,000 women in more than 12 tier 2 and 3 cities to drive to wheelers. Thus enhancing participation from women towards social growth, equality and development. Head on over to atmanirbher.com to look at Pavni and her team story today. We are here to talk to Pavni about a very sensitive subject. A subject which is not so welcome to talk about, it is stigmatized and that is mental health issues. Pavni has faced mental health issues since the last 10 years or so from the age of about 17. Let us talk to Pavni to understand how she brave this, how this helped her to discover her in a calling. Pavni, a big hug and welcome to small big waves. Thank you so much, Harsh. Thank you for making this platform comfortable enough for me to be able to even think that I can talk about this issue here. There have been a lot of times when I have been asked to talk about this issue on public platforms and never did I ever feel as comfortable enough to think that I can actually talk about it and there is the first time that I will be talking about this on a public platform. And it is only because you have provided me that safety net. I am really looking forward to this conversation. They are very big words. Pavni, I hold them in full trust and value what you have said. Thank you so much. People who want to know more about the tangible work which you are doing can always look at Atmanir Bhair and they can reach over to you. So let us dive into the main topic of a conversation today. Let us start by asking, when was the first time the mental health problems were notifed? Who notifed it? What were the first reactions, the first steps which were taken? The first time I felt that there was something that was of serious concern was in 2012. I had just come to my 12th class. I was living in Kota and I was preparing for IITG. And this started with certain bouts of anxiety, a feeling of anxiousness. And I thought it is very calm, generally. You always feel it. I had always felt it throughout my life at different stages before going to a stage, before a basketball match started, before my board exams. So I thought it is something similar to that. And maybe it will just go away in a few days. But then a few days passed by and it didn't go away. And then a couple of weeks passed by and it didn't go away. On the other hand, what happened is that it actually started manifesting for longer and longer durations of time. So when you should even have started, I would just feel butterflies for a couple of hours for absolutely no reason. And during those couple of hours, I was struggling to breathe properly. I could feel that all my muscles are very numb and very tight. And I thought that eventually subdued within a couple of days or weeks instead of subduing within a couple of weeks, I was at a state where the physical manifestation of man's IIT had gone to such levels that I could not eat properly. I could not sleep properly. I could not talk. I started stammering. I could not make notes during my classes. I would keep shivering. And that is when I realized, because something is wrong. This is not that anxiety that you have when you go for an exam or when you go to the stage to give a speech or this is not the one that happens before the final basketball match. This is something that I need to probably visit a health expert for. And that is when I reached out to my parents and I told them that listen, something is wrong with me, I've been feeling anxious, but this is not the normal anxious. This is there is something more to this. And that is when the first time we visited our psychacrystalline. It all actually accelerated very quickly, being absolutely normal to within a few weeks, feeling physically handicapped because mentally, emotionally, I felt absolutely normal. There were no particular triggers or there were no thoughts that were bothering me. Generally in anxiety or in depression or any kind of mental health issues, there are generally certain thoughts that are bothering you because of which anxiety manifest. In my case, it was completely opposite. There was physical manifestation that occurred first and it was so strong that it hampered my daily life. And that is when I decided to go to a doctor and see expert advice. This started when you were in quota. Yes, I was in quota and my parents live in Mathura. My parents live in Mathura. So how was the gap bridged? You were in school at that time. So did you take a break and you went purposefully and told them how did it really happen? To be honest, I was doing really good in my life at this point. I was in the top 20 batch in quota. I had amazing friends, people who are still late, very close friends of mine. I shared deep connections with these people. Yeah, everything was really good in life. So anxiety is starting to know where it just did not add up. There's the only thing that did not add up. Everything's going great in life and then all of a sudden this happens. And it just kept getting worse every day. Thankfully, I had local guardians in quota who were also very supportive and who were understanding. I think more than understanding, I would say that everybody in my family was willing to understand. Nobody in my family has mental health issues. Everybody in my family is into business and most of them have not even gone to college. My dad is very high school, past my mom's graduate. And they really do not have much understanding of what mental health issues are. But at every point, they were willing to understand. So when I first called them and said that something's happening, they did not come to me with questions like, "Why, what are you thinking? It will go away. Don't worry too much. Don't do this. No, they didn't do all of that. They asked me, "O, click tell us. What are you feeling?" And they came with the open heart and said, "Okay, we are as few as you are. But we are in this together. And let's figure this out together." So there were no preconceived notions. They never really came to me saying, "Do you think that this could just be you stressing about things? Or maybe why don't you just try to calm down, go for a vacation, go try to meditate, do this, do that? No, they told me, "Okay, maybe this will feel better. This will feel better. But at the same time, they were very open to trying to understand and saying that we do not know what is going on right now. And let's be on this journey together. Let's learn together what will help you feel that what will not." And because of that, even though they were not physically with me in Kota, throughout, I always felt very supported. I always knew that they were only a fallaway. And they always created this safety for me that no matter what happened in the world, I could always come back to them. There was a point when my parents said, when anxiety happens, anxiety generally means that the dictionary term means that you worry too much about the future. Now, in my case, there was not the case where we're still happening. And the least that somebody can do to trigger it more is make you more worried about the future. I don't my god, this is happening to you now. What will happen? What will happen to you? 12? I think what will happen to you? There's what will happen to you? My parents said to me, "It's okay if you don't study in the future at all." We are okay with it. We don't worry. We don't care what tomorrow is going to be like. You want to be at home for the rest of your life. It's fine. I'm still going to love you the same. So there was not even a single day when because of the people in my life, because of my family, because of my friends, I had to worry about my 12 exams or my ITJ exam or other things. I could literally only focus on myself and dealing with my mental health. And that is the best kind of support. I think that anybody can give 21 while they are struggling with any kind of mental health issue. It is in one way a difficult thing to understand because your parents, you said are very, let's say, only reasonably educated or do not have high education. They come from a very small town. So even the exposure is not there to big places or people who are very educated or in high places. And they had this approach. So let me ask you, how will you grow not as a child? What was the environment like? What was the title of growing you up? So technically I come from a Banyan family. Most of the women in my family were married by the age of 21, 22. My extended family is also to an extent quite conservative. But thankfully, that's not how my parents were. And they were always very rational in approach. And they always made me ask a lot of questions. So if they say anything, they would always make me, if anybody tells you to do anything, ask them, "Why am I supposed to do this? Why should I be doing it this way?" And I think it hit them and I started asking them the same question, "Why are you telling me to do this? Why should I do it this way?" So then, so it basically came a full circle with themselves. But yes, that's the kind of environment I was going into where I was told to not accept anything just because I'm being told to do it. My dad especially encouraged me to be really bold without telling me to be bold. When I first learned how to drive, my dad made me change and this was when I was just 16. And we had a driver, everything. But he still made me, he told the driver to sit and he said before you take the car out of the garage, you need to change all the four tires. And then he kept a baseball bat in that car, which was the best part. So I used to drive a car with a baseball bat in the boot of my car. So they always made me feel very independent. They blew me in a way where you have to be bolder. But at the same time, you're here for you. So the worst case scenario you call it. So yes, I've tried to fight most of my battles myself, but I've always known that my parents are still there. But I've always been very grateful to have been born in such an environment. To be honest. Indeed, really, for heartening to listen to this, but by the way, is the baseball bat, was it for your father? Apparently, I never had to use it. I think you have answered it in some way, but let me still dig a little, you were still in school when this happened. Did you have challenges with fellow students teachers? To be very honest, I did not have as many challenges in school with fellow teachers and students as much as I did in college. And this is very surprising in quota. All my teachers were very understanding, even though they were very competitive when it came to academics, but the moment they felt that I'm feeling uncomfortable in the class, even though it was the middle of the class, they would just be compassionately tell me to go home rest. They would tell me, okay, we'll take classes for you later. So they were very cooperative and so were the fellow students. I was actually surprised when I was not met with a similar treatment in college. I was rather met with a lot of rumours that were spreader about me. There was a lot of stigma about mental health when I was in college. And there was a very big difference in the kind of people that were in both of these places. Most of the people when I was in school, when I was studying, taking classes and residents came from middle class or moderate socio-economic backgrounds from the two to three cities. On the other hand, when I went to college, there were all people from very high income families, very educated families, highly literate upper class, the urban cities, metro cities. And I was very sure to actually be met with not a very compassionate environment in college, rather being mocked. In fact, I was actually bullied in college. So somebody like me who used to carry a baseball bat around in a car was bullied in college. And that's just how the kind of environment was in college and it was very surprising. And because of that, I actually stopped going to college and I started working within the first semester. I can't go to a place where I'm at with so much judgment. And yeah, I just stopped going to college after that. I also did not make a lot of friends from college, despite of being a very social person throughout my life. And I found entrepreneurship to be my true calling in college and started. You completed your degree, but you stopped attending college and you ventured into your own startup at that time. So, it's 10 years that you are facing these issues and you have done a lot in these 10 years, which is available in the public space of what you have achieved. But what were some of your most challenging times in these 10 years, particularly because of mental health issues? I think the first two years were extremely challenging for me because this is a period where I was really taken by surprise as to what was happening to me. Everything's going good and then all of a sudden life takes you by surprise and you're just trying to figure it out this puzzle as to what is happening, why is this happening to me. And the physical manifestation of my anxiety, like I said, made things really, really bad. I was a very active kid teenager throughout my school. I used to play a lot of sports. I used to participate in all activities. I used to work very actively in community building activities. I used to run my own in June class seven. So throughout my school, I used to teach poor kids. I was also very good with the cat mix. I was always the first, you know, I taught my board exams. And then all of a sudden when anxiety happened, I became this very lifeless, zombie sort of a person. And there was a time when I was taking up to 20 pills in a day and these were all sedatives. I couldn't even ride my scooter. I couldn't walk properly. I couldn't take notes. It's very small things that my body wanted to do. I couldn't do them with my body. I couldn't eat sleep properly. I couldn't talk to people. And I love doing that. I love talking to people. I love making friends. I couldn't do that. I would often feel very embarrassed in public spaces because I was just not being myself. The cherry on the cake was panic attacks. So within three to four months of feeling with anxiety, I used to have a time to the three panic attacks in a day. And panic attacks can be really scary. A panic attack might just last 10 minutes, but you think about it throughout the day. It is so scary. The hangover of a panic attack is carried in a panic attack itself. So this phase of my life was, I think, really difficult. And I was supposed to write my board exams in 2013, but because my my muscles used to be so numb, I could not even write one single page or forget a loan an exam. I decided to take a gap year and I actually took my board exams in 2014 and very surprisingly again, my entire family, my friends, there was no judgment around taking a gap year, saying, he, she's not writing about exams this year. And that's all nobody asked for explanations. Okay, fine. She writes next year. So what big deal. I really made a big fuss about it and that was a very comforting feeling for me because I was already feeling ashamed of myself for not being able to take my board exams, right. Board exams till date are a very big deal. However, I would say that these two years were also the years when I took the most drastic decisions of my life that really changed the course for me, deciding to not pursue engineering and rather pursue VBA and the an entrepreneur deciding to travel throughout my gap year, I chose to travel a lot and I did a lot of solo traveling. And this could only happen because life was very challenging at that point, it could not have hit like it was already at an all time low. And the only thing that kept me going was I need to get through the day. That is my small win. My small win is I need to get through today. I don't care about how tomorrow is going to be, but today's pathetic and I need to get through today. We'll think about tomorrow when it comes and that is how I just kept going day on day, surviving through all the medicines, sleepless nights, panic attacks. I used to eat a lot of custard actually because of all the medicines. There is nothing else I could eat. So I could only drink beverages. I needed sweet things because from all the medicines and all the space, so bad all the time. So just that's how I got through it custard and the motivation to get through today was what kept me going. I didn't even realize how I ended up making these big decisions wherein I don't want to pursue engineering. This was never meant to be for me. My inner calling was always entrepreneurship and doing something for the community. And yes, I think at the end of the day, I'm just really grateful that these two years could get so challenging. Had they been a little less challenging, I would have probably not made as drastic decisions that I made choosing to just decide to go to Laila that overnight all by myself. And I was just 18 years old. I don't think like you. This was the Royal Enfield Virgin. Yeah, you must tell our listener a little more about it. So these two years really made me very courageous and strong. And they made me wondered that in every situation always think what is the worst that can happen. And I felt that the worst has already happened. There's nothing that can happen anymore. So let's just do it. And even till today, anytime we are in my team, we are in a situation where we feel that, okay, this is challenging. This is risky. I always tell them to ask, okay, what is the worst that will happen? Tell me that if we can afford the worst, then we're doing this. The first two years, which were the most challenging, but these were also the years where you took the break here from your board exams and you were partly in quota and then partly you were traveling and you were traveling solo. Yes. And you were on a bike. You were traveling on a bike. I was. So what did you do? You took a bike in Mathura and you just went to Laird. Ladakh on that bike? What did you do? So actually before my Ladakh trip, I had never rode a bike. I rode a bike, but I never rode a Royal in field. And somebody in my family had a Royal in field and it always been fascinating by it. And I told him like a couple of times, I was like, I know how to ride a bike. So then when I went to Ladakh, I had a lot of these shops where they would just rent out bikes and these bikes were parked outside. So it's my first day in Ladakh and I go to a bike shop and I said, what is it required for me to rent a bike? Because I don't think we need these documents and that's it. And I was confident that I can drive. It's a 200 kg bike. What is the worst that will happen? You will get lost. But you will get lost. Hospitals will get a little bit lost. That's the worst that will happen. So I decided to just rent a bike and for the next 7 to 8 days, I was roaming all around in Ladakh on that toilet seat. And I think it's one of the best times that I've had in my life. In the sense that it has made me feel very powerful. In all the moments that have come again in my life, there was this moment that I remember when I fell down. So by Kshaladish Rathim, I was very positive. And Ladakh is huge and it's very sparsely populated. So there are areas where for miles, you will not see anybody. You won't even see a dog. Like a cattle, nothing. You won't see anything. So I was on one such road and I'm riding and I fell down. And so I'm lying on the road. The bike's on me and my knee is bleeding. And I'm just lying there. I'm moving to my left. I'm going to my right. There is nobody. Then I just get up and then I'm just looking at the bike. I'm like, how can I lift this up? I don't think so. Can I? So there was the first time I just tried lifting the bike. And it just lifted. I don't know. It felt like something in the nature was really helping me lift it. It happened so smoothly. And it made me feel so powerful that this is my first day. I'm riding a bike. I fall down. It's a 200 kg bike. I lifted it so easily. And maybe there are going to be more challenging situations in life coming forward. But all I have to do is try and I think it will just happen as quickly as this. And that has really changed my perspective of looking at problems. Being in stressful situations throughout my life. And just heading into problems with, we'll see what happens of approach or what's the worst that will happen of approach. What's the worst that will happen? Fantastic. And in this trip in Le La Dark, it was an unplanned trip. You never knew the next day where you are going and where you're going to stay. Yes, completely unplanned. I really want to ask you and I know your mantra of what is the worst that will happen. But there was no fear. No, honestly, if I were to go now with the same approach, I would probably have fear. But at that point, like I said, the worst was already happening. The challenge for me was to get through the day. That's all I cared about. And if living fearlessly, riding my bike, not caring where I'm going to eat, where I'm going to stay, who I'm going to meet. And I made a lot of sense in Le La Dark. I made friends with receptionist at a local restaurant where I used to eat a lot. I made friends with my guesthouse.org. The two offers used to chat so much. So I made unexpected friends. And you know, I was actually met with people who really cared about me even there. I was there only for seven days, but I was received with a lot of love. It used to get really cold. But the place where I was staying, these people every night would check on me. I'm okay. Are you feeling cold? Do you need a water bottle? Do you need a hot bottle? So even that love and compassion did take away the fearlessness to quite an extent from me. It's a nominal problem. What have been the stage of mental health? So it started, I would say, from feeling that this is nothing. Like this is never could have ever imagined ten years back that I'm going to have to live with this for ten years or probably the rest of my life. It's like a stranger, all of a sudden. I first saw in five minds, I tell you a lot. It is almost like dealing with another person living in your body. Trust me. And there are times when you see eye to eye with each other. There are times when you don't see eye to eye with each other at all. And you are in a constant conflict with yourself. So initially it's like a stranger coming into your life. And you're like, okay, maybe this is just relatives. So they'll stay here for a couple of days. And you don't really like those relatives. But then the stage is just lingering on. It's going on. It's not ending. So initially it was that it was only when the physical manifestation started. I started taking a lot of medicines that hit me hard. That, okay, this is not going anytime soon. This is chronic. This is a severe illness. It is, I was never dealing with a very mild form of anxiety. Like I said, within the initial couple of weeks, my health really deteriorated very badly. I was dealing with very severe symptoms of anxiety. The second stage that occurred was where I was, the when it hit me that this is severe, this is chronic. There's so many medicines that I have to take, when you medicines a day, medicines for everything, medicines to sleep, there's that. I just felt like staying in bed all day. And I would just keep putting myself, keep me as a regular person. Why is this happening to me? What did I do? And that is a horrible place to be. Fitting yourself. And especially when you've always taken charge of your life. So even though I was 17, 18, but before that also, when you ask me how what is the kind of environment that I was going into? I was going into an environment where I was always encouraged to make my own decisions. No decisions were ever just put on me that this is what you have to do. So living a life where I was driving my own life to, anxiety was driving my life. I'd really gone into a stage where I would just keep putting myself all day and it went on for quite some time. For at least a couple of months. I would just be in bed all day eating custard, putting myself. And then finally, I think that was this realization. How long is this going to go? It's been a few months. It's not getting better. We need to fight this. So all of a sudden, it's like me and my anxiety. We are in a boxing ring. And I'm just constantly fighting it. So I did these crazy things. It's a traveling. For example, because actually I would say a form of fighting my anxiety. It was not a form of completely accepting it. It was a form of fighting. It was a form of running away from it. It was a form of living one day at a time, feeling free, liberated, doing things that are, that keep me distracted. And I would say it was really forted. I wouldn't have known what it takes to trigger it. How powerful can it be or how exhausting also it can be as a process to completely, to constantly keep fighting it. You can do it for a couple of months. You can't keep doing it forever. You can't just keep running and doing how I put it. Just like crazy things every day. And this went on for at least three four years in my life. It has actually been just very recently that I've actually come to understanding with what it is, what really triggers it. What keeps it at bay. It's, I can take my time right. [LAUGHS] [INAUDIBLE] [SPEAKING JANUESE] The process of understanding, I think, really starts when you stop questioning it. I think we were having this conversation earlier also that when you truly want to understand somebody or something, you will have to stop questioning the intent and just accept it for how it is. And the understanding phase really started when I completely stopped questioning everything around why is it happening? Why is it happening to me? What can I do to make it better? What will happen next? What will happen in my lives? All worries, stress. It was only when I completely stopped questioning it that I started understanding it. It started opening up to me. When I stopped asking questions there is when it started opening up to me. This is what-- so it's not me to her anxiety and saying, OK, this is what triggers me. This is what I don't like. This is what will make me feel better. And in this period of understanding my anxiety, this is the period when I've actually grown as a person the most. I've realized that following a routine is of the most tremendous help while you are going to any kind of a mental health issue. This is also a stage that has taught me gratitude in life. Obviously, I started practicing gratitude as a very conscious practice that I have to sit down and take out time for gratitude every day. But over this period of just trying to understand this other person called aka Pavniz and Ziyate, that's also living simultaneously. That I've truly started being grateful for everything that has happened in the past and connecting the dots and realizing that life would not have been the same had anything been even slightly different. This is also a phase that has helped me develop a lot of resilience as a person. And I've realized that, for example, working out, right? A lot of times I say that-- it is very important. You work out like all my therapist, psychiatrist, psychologists have said that working out will release happy hormones, it will release happy hormones. Definitely working out releases happy hormones, but I think what working out does more in the case of mental health issues is that it makes you a stronger person. It creates discipline in you as a person. And that discipline, that strength is the most important on days when you can't get out of there. On days when you don't have anxiety, you are more, it is very easy to get up, go about regular chores, do your morning routine, have a nice breakfast with your family, get to office on time, be nice to everyone and all. It's on days when anxiety catches you red handed that it is difficult to do any of these things, to even get out of bed is difficult. And that is when that discipline, the routine, the strength that working out gives you comes in handy. There used to be days when I would just be in bed for hours contemplating everything that has happened in life. Now every time anxiety happens, it barely takes me one minute or two minutes to get out of my bed and start my normal routine. Like, okay, this is happening, just can keep happening in the background. So, fighting anxiety or I would rather say dealing with anxiety now, it's not a fight anymore, it's like breathing, I breathe every day, I don't have to put an extra effort to breathe, I don't, or normal activities in a day, that is how I'm dealing with anxiety, it still happens on everyday basis, but I deal with it more subconsciously now because of these small habits that I have formed. And yes, gratitude is one of the things that has helped the most in forming these habits and sticking to these habits. How have gratitude played a role in this? How did you bring in gratitude being a major way of you coming over in fact? So, let me talk about what I was doing when I was in school. I was running this nonprofit where we were teaching around 40-50 kids. I was a kid myself back then, but this is the closest that I came to what an inner calling could be. As I grew up, I had a really good academic score throughout, which is why there was engineering, IAAS, this, that, and maybe I really never wanted to do all of that, but I was pretty comfortable abiding by those norms because, "Hatcha, Mark, IA, everybody wants to do this, why not?" Right? What's the harm? And it's like a proven road to success. You do your 11-12 from science, of course, you're engineering, you go to an IIT, you become an IIS officer, that's all sorted. An IIT actually changed all of this for me. It threw me at a rock bottom, and I had to start from a zero. Even how I spoke, I was an auditorator throughout my school life, I used to be in debates, and when I was suffering from anxiety, I couldn't even speak properly without stammering. So, I really had to start everything from ground zero, and from that ground zero to where I've come now. Every day, I feel like I'm doing something that I was actually supposed to do, giving back to community, working with women. This is always what I was supposed to do. I don't think I wanted to be an IIS officer ever. I don't think I ever wanted to be an engineer, and I'm only able to pursue this because that happened. And there are a lot of such small things that have happened that have made me who I am, or what I'm able to do for others. And that has been the root of gratitude in this entire process. I would not have been nearly as strong as I am. I would have never probably even thought of pursuing spirituality. I was living quite a millennial life. Like far, very far away from gratitude or meditation, or even asking yourself questions about what is the purpose of my life? What am I even doing? What am I supposed to do? All of these work questions that only happened because I'm anxiety. Naitamagabi Pustini, I could say, Yes, sir. You channeled the energy of net anxiety. I tried to, there was no other option. Like it was more like a doer situation. You had to do something about it. But I think in situations like you describe it, it's very easy to form a kind of an adversarial relationship with yourself. And the fact that you stopped questioning, it is, I think, one of the key messages which I'm getting out of this. I think it's not like I don't want the answers, or I did not want the answers. The thing is that I realize that I will get the answers when I stop questioning it. Yes. So on this, I want to read this out to you. And that is when I was looking down because I was searching for this, which, which someone had sent me, one of my dear friends. It says, live everything. Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then someday you will gradually, without even noticing, live your way into the answer. This is my entailment called Reena Rilke. This is you putting into lines. Everything I've been trying to explain for so long and for it's not. Thank you for articulating it so beautifully. I think these are just beautiful chances. One of my close friends by the, he sent it to me for some other reason, because I'm of questioning things too much. I think the easiest thing to flip into in in these situations is for relationship with yourself, which does not have self-esteem. You go away from responsibility. You form certain opinions of yourself, which otherwise you wouldn't want to. So I'm very glad that we are having this conversation. And I hope that the way you describe it and the people who face this. And perhaps all of us at some times, someone less, someone a little more, someone on all days, someone only on some days. But I think we just don't need to question things so much. We can live into the questions for some time. Absolutely. And just like living one day at a time. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. I think we have reached a moment in history or the times have such that self-esteem is not only a very important psychological need. It is also a very important economic need. And I think here a lot of credit to the family in which you are born, to the parents, who who raised you not like to become an obedient child, but become more of a thinker, question everything, be more self-responsible than being obedient. And a very recent example, right? Like, so right now, I've always made it a very conscious choice to not be around people who judge me or who do not accept me for who I am. Like, I know I'm a rebel, I know I'm an outlier in a lot of terms. So if there is somebody who's not comfortable with that, I'm okay not being around them. And some of these people are all of my mother's side family. My parents have actually gone for a vacation and my entire mom's family is there. Okay. And then everybody's just trying to incentivize me. We'll go, we'll do this, we'll do that. And I don't have mom and my mom understands this, which is the most beautiful part. I told her that this night, I know, but I just don't feel belong there. I don't think that they really understand the kind of person I am and are willing to accept me for who I am. I feel that there is a lot of judgment. And I can just sense that judgment. And for that reason, I just don't want to go because it is going to take away a lot of energy from me. I'm sure I'll meet them like, you know, sooner or later, but I don't think my idea of having a vacation is with them, right? Like, I'm supposed to recharge me. It is not supposed to deplete me off energy. And my parents really understood that and they did not force me even once to know, but this is your family, how can you not be with, which happens all the time, right? You're supposed to be with your family. You're supposed to be with your relatives. They really respect me a lot that way. And they know, okay, that if she's saying this, she must have thought this through, which is why she doesn't want to come. And that stand for me with the other people in the family. And this entire, these small, small steps of putting myself first have actually helped me rebuild myself as team my law. Every time I would listen to others and do things that deplete me off my energy. These little things that I've done to stand up for myself, to stand up for protecting my energy, say, burning my individuality, respecting me for who I am, have really helped me just love myself more. And that is also a very important part of coming to terms with my anxiety. And I see it evolving to like I said, right? Like the two people that's made as partners in the IT, as partners in the IT and these two people don't see eye to eye with each other at all. They hate each other. And I'm gradually coming to terms with it. And in the future, I want to be one with it. I don't want to feel like that these are two different people anymore or that there is something that is inside me that is different from me. I want to feel completely one with it. And if I want to feel completely one with it, I need to love myself and put myself first, treat myself with compassion. And these little things that you do actually take that away from you. Being in places where you don't feel belong. And I have no reason to be in a place that I don't feel belong when there are so many people who love me so much. and are always there for me without any agenda. Just there for me unconditionally. Then why should I be among anybody who makes me feel unbelonged? I think that has been very instrumental part of you're not slipping into any kind of loneliness or any kind of disowning, anything about your own self. I think your parents have been a key role in that and a lot of reverence and a lot of pronumps to them from my side. Thank you. I'm going to pass it on to them. I'm really blessed to have them as my parents. And I know I think a lot of people my age, younger than me, are these days instrumental health issues. And if their parents are listening to this, please get in touch with my parents. I don't know how to do it. I think it takes a lot more courage when you ask me if did I go through fear when I was in Lada. I think that's not the question that matters. I always think about the fear that my parents had when I went to Lada. And they still decided to overcome that fear. Like for me, it was just living life right now. Like I didn't have an option. But for them to send their child all alone to Lada at 18, riding a bike. For three days, I did not even have a swim. So I had no contact with them because Lada had post-pid swims and I had a pre-pid swim. I did not know this. I remember I was going on a solo trip to Bangalore and we were traveling. I was traveling in first AC. And there were three men in that chamber. And there was just me and all of these three men were much older to me. And this was the first time, right? This was going to be at 26.28, our journey. And when my dad entered there and my dad looked here and there, he was like, okay, yeah, go and be nae, M&D. And all of this. Going to be traveling alone with these three men. I don't know who they are. And I saw that look on his face and he was flushed. He was not comfortable. And he still did not say anything to me. He told me, so they are actually the ones who overcome fear much more than I have. So, Parthi, I have a conversation with them. Can we fit it up? Definitely. I think we will go more into the story behind the story by talking to you. Yeah, I don't know. They are just phenomenal. I'm so glad that you are in such a family. And I hope that to listening to this story, I think this this whole peer pressure with parents today of having live up to our children to a certain way and a certain method or a certain threshold. I think that puts them in such a TV to do things without even thinking that whole part of thinking is just totally absent. And there is a spec for a child's individuality and seeing that even though it might be your child, but they have their own thoughts that they want they might want to lead their life in their own way that they might want to pursue their own, you know, maybe religious interests or intellectual freedom probably to be able to do that. You were saying that you were talking about your child's participation and you were saying that there are so many children, as many children as adults in the society, but their voice has no place. And if their voice has no place, how will they have individuality? And the gases doing fabulous work and bringing all those issues. In fact, I remember as a child, even when I used to go for debates, every time there would be interschool debates, everything that we wrote and that we were going to say in our debate was so scripted by our teachers, like our teachers would actually go through our debates 10 times. There was so many times and I had to cut down on what I thought about that particular issue because my teacher has told me that no, this is not what just goes to read, this is what will help you win. And I actually got back to my principal from that school a couple of years back telling him that this should not have happened. You should have just let me lose. But you should have let me speak what I wanted to. And after that I've actually developed a very good relationship with my principal and from my school. Looking for something which I had pulled up anticipating that I may need to refer to this when I talk to you. This is the obedient student versus the responsible student. Let us contrast more traditional way of teaching with the kind of teaching that nurture self esteem by way of a set of comparisons. And some of the key comparisons which have been done over here. The obedient student is motivated by external factors such as the need to please authority and been extrinsic approval. The student is characterized by internal factors such as the need to weigh choices and experience personal consequence. Then the obedient student lacks confidence to function effectively in absence of authority. Lacks initiative waits for orders. The responsible student is more confident to function effectively in the absence of authority and takes initiative. The obedient student has feelings of helplessness and teacher dependency. The responsible students have a personal sense of empowerment and independence is common. The obedient one operates from an external value system that may not be personally appropriate and may even be harmful. The responsible student operates from internal value system while being considered to the needs and value of others. The obedient student makes poor choices to avoid disapproval or abandonment. The responsible students may make poor choices to experience personal consequences and to satisfy curiosity. And we are actually punished for being responsible students in our education system. We are encouraged to be obedient. Yeah, even in the letters we are supposed to read, we are to be dintly. And even in the parents' time today, we are to be obedient. Your child doesn't listen and your child is very obedient. These are the two most common statements. I think now that we are using these words, I think my parents were very comfortable with the idea of me not being obedient. So obviously, parents' teacher meetings I was really cold at. She is good with everything but she is just not obedient. She doesn't listen. She is good with everything. So we can't give her less marks. Even if we cut her marks, she will still talk. So she is good with everything. All sports activities. But she doesn't listen. And there used to be so many times. And I would just be standing outside the class. I would be pulled out of the assembly. So I was a very notorious kid by those standards. And there were a lot of complaints that obviously went through my parents. Some of them were very humiliating for them. And despite of that, they never really told me to be obedient. Never. I think not even once I remember my mother or my dad telling me, "You need to be obedient." I think this just goes on to say mental health problems. They cannot be pinned down to an individual. I think it's just that whole environment, that ecosystem of how you have grown up, of what is around you, that matters so much in the way you will deal with the situation. And I'll tell you, so all for the until 2017 or '18, until I kept questioning why was this happening to me? And it was coined by all my health experts as generalized anxiety disorder. Because we couldn't really figure out what was the reason. And it was only very recently that in one of my therapy sessions, very subconsciously, it came out that was the actual reason of my anxiety. And it was, I've never spoken about this before, but it was, I think, a sexual assault that happened right before my 12th class started. And it was very subconsciously embedded somewhere. It never came out in any of my discussions. And I was going through a very rigorous, health regime, right? Like I would have sessions every week. It was only when I stopped all my therapies and I made it more intermittent. I stopped questioning. I was ready to completely accept myself that this occurred. And it came out that, okay, this is the reason. This is probably what actually triggered this off all these years. So it was quite a revelation. And I really also at the same time. Appreciate the sharing and the vulnerability which you bring forth. And I think I can only be in deep gratitude to you for saying this because I think this is going to be so helpful to so many people who would be willing to listen to this. And it would be so encouraging for them that this is not end of the world. And there is a different way to look about it. Thank you, Pa. I'll be really glad if this can actually encourage others to love their life. More headstrong. So you talked about spirituality. What do you do? To be honest, right? There is nothing much that I'm doing very actively to pursue it. I do and try to read more on spirituality. Ask more questions. So currently I'm just living up to the curiosity that I have. I really want to start pursuing it in a more holistic manner and make it a part of my routine. I do try to meditate. I have tried different forms of meditation. I practice art of living, Buddhist chanting and whatnot. But there is none that I've actually stuck to. So that's what I'm going to be talking about. out of but also there was Nanda Ratcheliff felt like sticking to and doing this everyday. Recently started reading a little bit of Bhagavad and also on your recommendation I started reading the fall of human intellect and a little more from Vedanta studies. But yes, that's more or less about it as of now and I'm really hoping I can post with more of that to do it. Atman, there were about started before four years. You started facing these problems on the anxiety front before about ten years. So what was the relationship between the invitee, the mental health problems and Atman, how did Atman, there happen? Of it a result of that? It was not a direct result of that but I think my anxiety like I said really helped me question my purpose. So when everybody said that after doing all of this academic, you want to come back to Mathra and start a driving school, I was very headstrong that this is what I wanted to do. And I don't care if you think it is small but I think that right now this is my purpose and I don't care if the company that I'm working with currently is valued when, if I take an exit this will be so but I want to do this now and I think that this is going to create a lot of impact and that was a result of my anxiety that I could form those kind of perspective and approach because anxiety had happened. So yes, that is what I say. I like at the end of the day I'm able to connect all dogs and which is why I feel very grateful when I look back but to be honest, that were days when you don't feel grateful. You can feel grateful when you look at a span of ten years and you see all the good things that have happened. But what do you do about gratitude on days when you are struggling to even breathe properly? Like an ordinary function, you're breathing like it is difficult and if you can try and find three things to be grateful for even on those days trust me, I will get better. You won't even roll out but those are just upset difficult days, on those days just being grateful for having a bed. Those little little things on those days and feeling grateful for those days, for those little things is really what helped me survive on those days. You just said that on my recommendation, you are reading this book, "Fall of Human Intellect" but I think if I look at what has happened with you in terms of the way your parents have handled this whole situation, the way they have grown you up, the intellect is at such a high level in your household. Yeah and which is why intellect and intelligence and education are very different things. Yes. There's nothing to do with each other. Yes absolutely. Well said, intellect and intelligence are indeed very different things. There's this one thing that I would like to say that in this entire journey, I've received a lot of compassion from the people around me that has helped me going. To be very honest when somebody asked me what are the challenges that you faced in general, like even with Athnih Burr or in dealing with my mental health, I find it very challenging to think about the challenges. I don't remember. Like I only remember most of the good things that happened and how I get here because I was never really focusing on the challenges. I was always focusing on getting better, getting through the day, the good things but it was all possible because I was receiving a lot of love and compassion from others. I was that brought in a lot of positivity and I was able to give that compassion in turn to myself and I think the other day, I think I was saying that I want to be a more compassionate leader in the future and at that point I did not have an answer as to why. But thinking about today's session actually helped me understand why I want to be a more compassionate leader because I have received a lot of compassion in my life and I want to be able to give it back to the people around me. With the same unconditionality that I have received and I know how totally life-changing it can be from somebody who's going through struggles that they cannot really put in people's. If it went through Athnih Burr, you are already paying it forward. No, I don't think Athnih Burr has much to do about me paying forward for my anxiety or my struggles. Athnih Burr is truly about empowering women. Like I said, I come from a very conservative overall ecosystem even to my pens on all that way but even as a child, I remember the girls around me in my neighborhood were not allowed to talk to me because I would be a negative influence on them apparently because I used to write a biasing. I know how truly liberating riding a bike has been for me. I always remember that Ladakh incident. I know how truly liberating riding a scooter has been for my mother and her life as soon. You cannot even think about empowerment if you can't go from point eight to point eight. Think that empowers you. You need to go out and seek empowerment. To seek empowerment, you need to get out. You need to be able to move. That is what Athnih Burr is for me. Athnih Burr is also a way for me to bring these stories of these women closer to myself. It is channelizing. It is clear empowered women and the others who are not so empowered and bridging the gap between those stories. So yes, Athnih Burr is covering a lot of distances for me and for the women who are learning to ride scooters and their lives are changing because of that. It is a very small thing but it just transforms their lives completely. To story of impact from Athnih Burr? Yes, absolutely. In fact, just even right now, the lady who is our house health, her daughter is one of our trainers. She used to tag along with her mother. In 2017, when I started Athnih Burr, she used to just tag along with her mother and come home because she really liked my mother a lot. My mother would teach her to the right. When I came back from Puneh, I was talking about starting Athnih Burr. She overheard and she was like, "Deddy, my kubis, kubis, kubi chalaniya naatya." So why don't you make me a kriner? And I literally just laughed at her off at that point because she could not even speak like you ask her, "What is your name?" She would just like, "Yes, yes." That's how under confident she was and then gradually she did become a kriner. She started earning her own money. I remember two to two and a half years. I received a call at 1231 AM in the night. Dad received a call that her brother had beaten her up because she bought her own scooty in her own name. Okay. And they just wanted her to get married right away. And because how could she buy a scooter in her own name when their one male man goes in the family? And she comes from a village nearby. Very recently, she bought her own plot of land, a plot of land in her own name. She is marrying somebody of her own choice, which is a very big deal. It is that agency that I am not going to marry somebody just because you think I should marry them. The kind of agency that these girls are practicing right now, that the women are practicing right now. And it's a very small thing. We have taught women who go to go learn scooters in sardis with pappas. Not even take their pappas off. And I remember one such lady who used to call her husband Gunu's papa. Like not even Gunu's papa. Okay. So we remember her as Gunu's mother and Gunu's papa. So she came to our office one day after she had learned and she said Gunu's papa has been taking me to the suit. So she said she is going to get a scooter. She said she is going to get a scooter. And this is the lady who has done her own tour training to get a scooter. Especially when it comes to feminism and women empowerment. That's sardis to suit revolution is going on in tier two, tier three cities. I have seen women in my own family asked which from sardis to suit. And it is not about what they are wearing. It is about how what they are wearing makes them feel and a suit makes these women feel really empowered. So these little stories really warm my heart and keep us going. There are a lot of such stories that has to be another podcast for a little bit. No, but just by starting with the scooter you put them on a path of escalating empowerment all through the alike. So I think that is wonderful. Good Barney. Look forward to being in Madhura sometime talking to your parents face to face. And hearing the story and also doing the Parikrama with you. Definitely. And I really look forward to hosting you. And I need company over the pike mall. So thank you so much Barney for being on this podcast, for being on small big wins. And more than anything else, Barney, I respect you so much for talking to me and bringing out your own story completely. And within the story today for sharing the most, the first or the most difficult moments of the story. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. I would just like to end by saying when we fight a block, it grows stronger. When we acknowledge experience and accept it, it starts melting and that's you Barney. Thank you so much once again, Harsh. Thank you for writing me with the source paper I talk about all these issues. Fair R R. so many feelings, so many incidents. So the last 10 years are a lot to digest in that respect. And I did not think that I would be able to put the nuance or talk about it. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you.