Pauline Chalamet Loves The Suburbs

It's the data that you have to like build on your own of your own life, like knowing that other people did it is like beautiful in the point of art in many ways, but also just like can't give you the resolve of like I can do things. I know that I'm like tearing up. [laughter] Okay, she's really a mom. Yeah. [music] Pauline. Hi. How's it going, babe? It's going well. I can't believe you listen to this show. That's so funny. Who's your favorite? I can't say. But you know what I will say? What? Zoe Dishonel has become like a surrogate big sister to me in Los Angeles. Yeah. And I've listened to that episode several times. Isn't she great? Yeah. I just like hearing the two of you talk. You both had such a great time making that movie. Yeah. So I, that's the episode I listened to the most. I love her. Yeah, she's really, she's really great. Like, there's no one else like her. There's no one like her voice. There's like, no one like her voice. There's no one who has her voice. There's no one who has her, like, she's like, yeah, she's like a class act. She's kind of like Hollywood royalty, you know, like her old fam is in the business. They like, their kids go to the same school she went to. There's something very like, I don't know, and her career is so great. So interesting. It is. I was in a hotel room the other night, and yes, man happened to be on with her and Jim Carrey. And I love that movie. So of course, I watched it. And god damn, she's just so like original and charming. Yeah. I just was like, who else could have, and it's like, yeah, it would have been a different movie. Someone else played it. But who else could have done it like this? No one. I don't know. She's so great. Also, I love Jim Carrey. I know. He's so. I'm really excited to see what he does next. I guess I can't say that, but I think he has a thing coming up, but I like, I can't wait for his old, his old era, like when he, like in like 10, 15, 20 years, I hope he's just given us weird shit. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like his Vimeo painting. Yes. What are they called? Videos. Yeah. Um, I've, I've watched those several times too. Yeah. Yeah. Are you a painter? I am, I am the opposite of a painter. Yeah. No, I really have someone said, like, I'm going to put a gun to your head unless you draw like a believable something. I'll die. Couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. And it's like, you ever read the little prince? Hmm. Okay. At the beginning, the little prince, he talks about how he draws a, he, so hold on, one second, sorry. Hmm. Also, I'm a little sick. So I have my Kleenex here. I hope, I hope you're, are you like, you're in a germ, germaphone, a little, okay. Um, I don't think I'm contagious. I also, yeah, I don't know since COVID people are weird about sick, like when you're, when you have like a little cold, you're not supposed to do anything, but like, it's so true. Like, if you have a little cold, like life continues, I truly, uh, a guy that I'm like kind of seeing, uh, text me today, we're supposed to see him tonight. Oh, great. Casual. That's not where I'll tell you off camera. He's right here. Hey, come on. Uh, but we were supposed to each other and he was like, I'm a little sick and I was like, normally I'd be like, whatever come over, let's make out, but I, I'm being only a little weird about sick right now because I have to travel soon. Yeah, but also, um, I understand like when it's like, I'm sick and I'm going to stick my tongue down your throat. Yeah. It's a little like, oh, you and I probably won't make out today. Probably not. That's the, that's the goodness. Never say never. We never know, but like most likely scenario, um, but sorry, just to finish on my little principle, um, as a beginning of a little prince, he talks about how he goes over and shows the adult, uh, picture of a boa constructor that ate an elephant. I think that's what I'm right. And basically the, the adults keep going like, why did you draw a hat? What a nice hat. And the little boy is like, no, like adults can't see that it's not a hat. It's a boa constructor that ate and so it like looks like a hat. Yeah. But it's, yeah. And that's your drawings. Anyway, that's where I'm at. It's so funny. Dude, same. I wish I could be a painter so bad. Um, sorry. This is kind of rude. How far you choose. I'll take my shoes off. I'll get comfy. Hey, come on. Um, yeah. Okay. I wish I could be a painter. I guess I could learn. I thought about taking a class or something. Yeah, I don't think I could even do that. I have a really good friend who's an amazing painter, um, and I, I solicit her help sometimes. Like, I've, I wrote a letter once and at the end I wanted to have a really cute drawing of a dog and I said to her like, could you just draw me a cute dog and put it at the bottom of the letter? If I didn't say I drew it, but my handwriting is so bad. Oh, God. Mine too. I try to do handwritten letters for special things and I just every time I have to write like six versions because my handwriting is so bad. Oh, yeah. My handwriting is so bad, but I just write one version. Yeah. You didn't anyway. Yeah. You're brave. 100%. It's like, if doctors can do it, why can't we do it? Why can't we? I wrote, uh, every single person who worked on Trash Mountain, I wrote a handwritten thank you letter to. I think it was like 157. And I got to say, by the end, what those people got was, was barely nice. Like, it was just like truly like, it was really like, thank you for your work on the film. I couldn't love you more. Appreciate everything you did. But it looks like just like madness and scribbles. I'm like, they certainly opened it and threw it away. They were like, thanks, dude. You could have just called. It is so not special. But I want to get better handwriting. I used to have pretty good, uh, penmanship when I was a kid, except I remember ever really vivid memory of when we were learning cursive. Our teacher, I was kind of like Amelia Bedelia a little bit. Our teacher was, our teacher was like, you connect every letter in cursive. Yeah. And I was like, got it. Connected every letter without spaces between the words. Like I connected, like if I was writing person of interest, like I connected the end of person to the O of, of the F to the I, like I just wrote, and that was nice. And she was like, she was like, why are you doing that? And I was like, because we connect the letters in cursive, like I was like annoyed with her. I was like, listen to your own rules. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she explained to me the words have to have spaces. I went to a middle school, um, where in it, like the, I was, okay. So I did elementary school at PS 87 on the Upper West side. And then my family was thinking of moving back to France. So my parents put me at the United Nations School, my dad worked for the UN, um, because all the academics were in French. So it was like, that way I could brush up on the reading and writing part. And so I had done third grade at PS 87, where I started to learn cursive. And then I went to fourth grade at UNIS. And they were teaching something called Nelson writing. So I'm so made up, by the way. It was. Yeah. And my mom, who's like very academically driven, like flip tertia, like, was just like, what is this? Like, why are you not learning cursive? What is Nelson? And you know, I was like learning a whole different, like way of writing. So I actually, like, never really learned cursive. I learned a mishmash of like one year of third grade cursive. And then fourth grade was Nelson. Honestly, I don't even remember if that's what it's called, but I think it is because I like why, but I think it's like a Nelson writing. I don't know. Like, maybe we can look up when Nelson writing is Nelson handwriting poster. Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good. So it's like, it's like a form of cursive. Original joints, diagonal joints, diagonal joints to letters without ascenders, example, given AI or you in horizontal joints to letters with, I'm not understanding what Nelson is fully. But I'm loving their work. This is what my, my mom was really. She was having the moment I'm having now where she's like, I'm angry, I don't understand this. Yeah. Yeah. She's just like, you need to know cursive. I mean, yeah. See, it doesn't really look, oh, no, it does look like cursive. Yeah. There's like moments where they choose to connect and moments where they talk. It's like someone got bored with cursive and was like, exactly because like the Z in cursive is so, um, right, isn't like a funny, it's like a shoe, shoe, yeah, and look, the Z here is normal. Yeah. And they connect the L on the A, but they don't connect the Z in the Y, but then in over they connect every letter. Yeah. This is fascinating. I did not know about Nelson and I'm thrilled to learn of it. I had no idea I'd be talking about Nelson today. I like this. I absolutely do not like this. My, my handwriting is different based on the time of day that it was like, sometimes it's like, you know, at the start of every journal, the first entry of every journal I finished, I tried to have it be nice just to the first page at least. But if I just open to a, I mean, there are pages, especially when I'm like having a moment of insomnia and can't sleep and I'm just like writing out thoughts, I can't even reread it the next day. Yeah. Like, it's like, I don't, I don't know what the pen is doing, but it's trying. Are you journaling every day? I was. I was. I, I used to have a really strict regimented and I don't mean that that sounds like I forced myself. Like it was something that really helped me start my day where it was like, I had, I don't sleep with my phone in the room, I have a, like, an analog alarm clock, I would make my breakfast and tea or coffee and then I would journal and then I would read and then I would, you know, turn on my phone and do that. other stuff. That doesn't exist anymore. That was like a solid five years of my life. And now, it's like, I'm lucky if I can like know where my journal is at any good of an point, because things are so messy and crazy. Yeah. I can't journal. I can't have a routine. There's like something wrong with it. I live my entire life. Do you know, the closest I ever got to describing how I live my life is, you know, when you have a newborn and people are like, when you get the chance to sleep, when you can, like, this is survival mode, that's how I live my entire life. And I have no baby. Like, I literally, I'm like, I'm like, fuck, if I have an hour now, I should really get sleep. And it's like, you are 31 years old. You are fine. Like, there's just something, or I'm like, the urgency. There's just something about, I can't get myself to get up at a regular time. I'm like, well, I'm really, those extra two or three hours of sleep all, I'll need them if I want to do something that night. And it's like, or you could take a nap or you could just go do it. Like, I don't know, there's something about the way I'm living my life on survival mode. I need a routine. And journaling would be cool. I don't journal. Yeah, I don't know. It is great. I, you know, my dad instilled it in me. And so I've journaled since, like, fourth grade. And I have every journal since then. But it used to be a nighttime activity. So like, before going to sleep, I would get out thoughts of the day and stuff. But it wasn't every day. I think it was like, when I had a lot of thoughts, I would write them out. Now it's like, I'm lucky if, if like, I happen to have 20 minutes. And I, like I said, know where the journal is, then it's like, okay, just get some flow, try to write anything. But a lot of the times it's like, you know, like April 6th, today I woke up and I had and then like something called me and like, that was it. And it's like, oh, what did you have? Did you have a dream? Did you like, what was it? Damn, to have, that's the thing though is I, I want to have like a log of my thoughts and feelings. But now I almost feel like, I have this feeling sometimes where I'm like, God, I missed so many big moments. Like, I wish I had journals from when I was like, 23. But we also now have our like phones that have like that date, everything and, you know, notes up and what the issue with the phone is. Like, at least with like social media. Sometimes I'll try to like look back at social media to be like, what was my life then? And I'm like, why wasn't being on? I have a bunch of happy Instagram posts from when I was 22 and I'm like, that was a lie, brother. So I can't, I can't trust those. Oh, no, no, no, yeah, social media. I am really, I am, I am not on social media right now. Let me tell you, I think I think something got real dark this past year. I don't know if it's like my personal algorithm or if it's happening to other people, but it got really dark. I don't know that everything is, everything makes me feel like I'm not enough. Yeah. It's really strange, but you know where I'm big or not, I'm big, but where I spend a lot of time. Tell me. Reddit? No. And I always have. Oh, I know. I know. What? This is shocking. I know. Because I think of you as being so well. Oh, yeah. That's an unwell space. I am in Reddit. What are you doing on there? I am a part of weird groups. Oh, my God. Yeah. Are you posting? Absolutely not. Okay. No worries. Once I like accidentally upvoted something and then I created a whole new account. So aren't going to get me. No, but no, I love like there's so many subreddits that I just, I can't say they're like some of them are fun or cute. Yeah. And it's you know what it's become, it's become social media. Like Reddit used to be this kind of like space on the web that you had to like be willing to navigate to spend time on. Yeah. Now as an app, it's literally social media. Like you can be scrolling. I like scrolling on Reddit. Yeah. So it's like I'm not really on Instagram, but I'll be scrolling on Reddit. And it's like you made yourself it's better though, right? I do that with Substack. I'm scrolling on Substack. And I'm like, this is so in light. I tell myself it's not doing as much damage. Yeah. I don't think that's true though. It's harm reduction to be on Reddit. Sure. For you, I'm loving it. Okay. Mostly words, right? Or is it a lot of pictures now? It has a lot of pictures. It last videos. I tried to help you. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's some it's a Jason. It's social media. It's all really comparable. Yeah. That's so funny. I can't, I can't do Reddit. It's the darkest. Oh my god. But you know what's fun on Reddit? Tell me now. All the airline subreddits. Oh my god. So I love those. I mean, people get so upset also. It's like the way people come after wholesomeness, like someone who like wrote being like, um, you know, I had the worst flight ever. It was like a united flight. Like worst flight ever with the non-stop crying toddler or something, something. And someone replied being like, think of the parents, like, it would be harder for them than it was harder for them than for you. And the way people came after this person, like they don't want anything like good. You brought a smile to a knife fight. These people, these people are not interested, baby. That good vibes are not going to get you anywhere in here. This is a viper pit. That is so fun. I know it's crazy. It makes you feel crazy. Sometimes you'll see someone being so sweet online. And I'll just, I fear to, when I was on TikTok, there would be times that I would, I would, I would get served a video of someone just so sweet and wholesome and lovely doing anything, anything at all. And I would be so scared to check the comments because invariably, you would check the comments and it would be some of the meanest, sometimes funny stuff you can imagine. And when it's funny, that's the worst because you're like, oh, damn, that was really good. Yeah. Folks, as Miranda priestly once said famously, it's not turquoise. It's not lapis. Don't know if I pronounce that right. It's actually serulian. 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When I go on vacations with friends, something I must have is a kitchen with a nice big oven and stove top where I can cook mouth watering meals for my friends and loved ones. People who eat together, it's often said, "Stay together." If we can find our perfect stay on booking.com, anyone can. It's really special. I'm just going to get a little emotional. That's very beautiful. So find exactly what you're booking for. booking.com. Booking.com. Book today on the site or, frankly, in the app. Are you reading do you read books at all? I do read books, yeah. You're a reader, and I knew that, I think. I am a reader. Less with the toddler. It's harder to make time to read. You know, you know you were saying earlier the newborn, they say, sleep, your whole life, the urgency. I didn't feel that until my baby became a toddler. I felt the babyhood was pretty easy. I mean, every day was something new, but I was just like, you're coming along for the ride. Now, you're coming along for the ride, and there's a little bit of like, wait, what ride? Where are we going? What are we doing? But so the reading becomes, you know, a lot of like, um, shell silverstein, yeah, which I love. You love shell silver? Yeah. But I've just realized them in LA's book. And I'm a huge Liza Monelli fan. - You're a big Liza Monelli fan. - She is, she's like pivotal to my desire to be an actor. It was like, I was in, I don't know what year it was. It was like, I was, I was a kid. And my, oh yes, this is, okay. So I used to, so I was a ballet dancer and I was at the School of American Ballet, but before going to the School of American Ballet, I studied at this place called Studio Maestro on the Upper West Side. And Studio Maestro was like, you went down these stairs and there was like these three studios. And before my ballet classes, when I was a literal young child, there would be like older people taking this jazz class with this man named Luigi. - Hell yeah. - And I would just like watch these older dancers dance and then I kept watching this one woman. And my mom once said to me, you know who that is. I was like seven. I was like no, and she said that's Liza Monelli. And I didn't know who that was. And my mom was like, oh, okay, well let me explain. And she took me, I guess Liza was having like a show one of her shows and we went and saw it with my grandma and my mom. And I'll never forget, she went up on stage, she did all her songs, she did like Liza with a Z. I had never heard any of this. And then I remember her saying, no idea who Judy Garland is, no idea that that's her mom, but I just remember saying, my mom always said to perform full out even when there's no audience because there might be one, like there might be three of you in the audience, but there might be the one person whose life you're gonna change. And so you always have to go full out. And that always stayed in the back of my head. And there's just like this woman is amazing. And I always love to her and follow her since then. And I honest to God because I'm also very bad with like things kind of celebrity things. I found out maybe two or three years ago that she was Judy Garland's daughter. (laughing) In my head, also at her dad, Manelli had like, you know, directed some of the biggest movie musicals, no idea. For me, it had just always been Liza Manelli like in the woman who took Luigi's class. - That's, she, that's the funniest way to know her. Because that's the old woman who takes classes at my dance studio. - Exactly. - That is so funny. We had extremely similar childhoods getting. (laughing) Just hearing you say that, I'm like, that's so chic for your mom to be like, do you know who Liza Manelli is? You go, no, I'm seven. And she goes, let's fix that. And so like, be able to go to a show is like, that's the kind of shit that I, when I was seven. And I was starting to learn that kids had lives like that. I started to be like, oh my God. I wish I was a New York kid. Or like when I moved to New York for the first time in college. And I saw like 10 year olds riding the train alone with like a violin. I was like, ah, you're so cool. That's so fucking cool. - That is, yeah, yeah. My mom was really big on bringing like shows. Shows were like, I don't want this to sound wrong, but it was like, once a week we were going to the theater we were seeing a show. And it was just kind of like, oh God, like we're going to the theater again tonight. Like, totally. But you know, but like now I look back and I'm like, oh, that's how I saw so many great shows. Like I'll never forget Burnett Peters in Annie Get Your Gun. - Yeah. - It was like the first time I was seeing adult kids on stage. And I was like, this is so hot. And I was like, ah, maybe six years old. - No. - But yeah, it was really, yeah, she was really good about bringing us to shows. She still is. - That's the really, that's the thing though about being a kid and thinking about kids who had different things than you or whatever or thinking about what you give your kids is like, kids are going to be equally impressed in unimpressed in ways that you would never imagine. Like it's the fucking like, getting them some like really expensive gift and they only want to play with the box. Like you just like, you don't know what they're going to be impressed by and be annoyed by. And if I were eight and going to my like 10th Broadway show of the month with my mom, I'd have been like, mom, like it just is like, yeah, it's, that's just part of it. - Yeah, you're like, mom, I want to go to Chuck E. Cheese. Like that was me like, I was always so envious of like, what I considered, I don't like this what I'm going to say, but like the like normal things of like suburb, I was obsessed with suburbia. My mom like, mom had this best friend from high school who lived in Pelham, New York. And on Christmas Eve, she would throw a party each year and we would go and I loved it. I was like, I am in a house. Like there is a yard, there is a play set, there is a dog. Like you like, oh my God, look like the cool friends, like they have friends that live down the street and they're like walking over. Like it was so cool. - Yeah. - I was obsessed with like, like, suburbia. - Yeah. - And now less so, you know. Now a little less so, but growing up, growing up, I was really, I was really into that. - I think that's the preferable. Like, I think it's so funny sometimes when people are like, like even you being like, I don't know if I like that I'm saying this, I'm like, no, it's the preferable thing to be fascinated by other people's lives as opposed to being like, well my life is better than everyone's. - Yeah, yeah. - It's like, no, it's the preferable thing to be fascinated by Pelham, I think. That's like, that is actually the best way to be in the world. There's like, curious about other people's stuff. It is hilarious to be like, I wish I'd have done the walkable neighborhood of that like New York, but it is, yeah, I totally, I think that's part of too, like a big part of my growth as a person was getting over the like jealousy I had for other people's lives. When I was a kid and when I was like a teenager when I was like, God, I wish we were, whatever, I wish we lived somewhere cool. I wish we were rich, I wish I was thin. I wish like, I wish all these million different things about my life, like part of growth and happiness is getting to a place where you're like, I am fascinated by all of those things and by other people and also, I got my life and my life is great. Totally. You know, we all have to do some version of that. Yeah, it's true. I have a question for you. Go ahead. Do people tell you that you, like, I'm so nervous. Do people tell you that they feel like they've known you a long time when they haven't? Yeah. Yeah, you really, you really, we're like, you're talking. And we've hung out a few times. A couple times. I feel like we've known each other a really long time and I feel like that's such a quality that you have because that's like a character trait of like really cool, someone really cool. It's like, but also like kind and warm and yeah, I just feel like I've known you a long time. You would not believe the way the inside of my body feels right now. Squarming, squar, any, the inside of my body right now is like a million little minions running around being like, find a joke. Get us out of this. Come, the boss is in trouble. That is so sweet and nice. And I knew sometimes I wish I was less sincere. Like sometimes I wish I was a little more like, oh, like, be like cool. Sometimes it feels so uncool. You think? Oh, I think you're so cool. I don't think so. I mean, thank you, but I don't think so. I think that like, like, I wish I could be like, oh, funny joke. Funny joke. I can't do that. Oh, that is so funny, dude. I literally, I was, I was the other day, I was like, doing press for Devil's Prada, which you're in. Oh, shout out. What? And I was doing some press for it with Simone and Helen. And they're both so good at it. I really love them both. I'm obsessed with both of them. And they're both so good at this. And they're like, poised and professional. And like, I can talk all day, but I'm also pro-lying. Like, I think like, lying in press is so funny. I love to lie. I love to make up a story. I love to be ridiculous. And there were a couple of times that I stepped out of the bounds and like, really took a big swing. I'm like, lying or like doing some stupid bit. And I just felt a little like, I was like, oh man, I hope I'm not making this bad for them. But I just want to be having fun all the time. I totally get it, but wait, can you please elaborate? Like, what do you mean? Like, do you lie from one press thing to another? So like, then it's like, you said one thing, but you said the other. Totally, yeah. And that's like that, that when you were like, the thing going on in my body, like, it's like, make a joke, it's not make a joke. It's like, save the situation. How do you save it? Because I love it. So it's not like about like, it's not like about anything material. Like, for example, when I say, like, do a bit, you know, like, like, for example, there was a really earnest question that an interviewer asked about Anna Wintor. They're like, how nerve-wracking was it to be around Anna Wintor? And they both answered really elegantly and beautifully. They both like been around her. And they had beautiful, wonderful earnest answers. And then I said, I don't really like her because we went to high school together. And we were on the tennis team. And we had big drama and she knows what it was, but I'm not going to say what it was. But basically, all that to say, I don't really fuck with Anna Wintor. And like, I don't know what compelled me to say that. But it's obviously not true. But it's like, I just get a little bit bored sometimes and I have to lie. But honestly, like, I totally understand. When you look at like the way people get fried doing press tours, it's amazing that people don't kind of go off the rails more often. Because if you're doing like one or two things, that's great. But if you're doing like a lot of press, it can kind of drive you insane. I'm going off the rails. And I like that about myself. I think it's great. But I am always a little bit like, oh, I hope I'm not making anyone uncomfortable because I love to do it. Yeah, but yolo. Yolo. And also, it is gestures privilege. Like, literally being a comedian, I do get to do stuff like this. - I would adjust her's privilege. - Just her's privilege is a little like, people let me get away with it a little bit more. They're like, "Oh, that Caleb's, what Caleb's?" It's the end up, you know? So I get to play with the bounds a little bit more. Oh my God, have you ever seen that clip of Joan Rivers guest hosting a late night show? Maybe it was the tonight show? - Is there only one? - Why is it her and Betty White, the one I'm thinking of? - Okay, yeah, I think I saw this. - It's so iconic. I've been thinking about it a lot. I'm trying to get late night to let me be fun. Seth, I went on Seth Meyers and he let me be fun, but next time I want to be even more fun. I want to wear a costume and do a character. But I, also, by the way, I'm just going to say, I might not ask them to do that. So if I don't do it, it's not that Seth's team said no, okay? But I, it's so fucking fun because Betty White comes out and Joan is like hosting the show, you know? And they just have this back and forth where they're being so mean and playful and ridiculous. And Betty's like, "Well, I'd love to say you have on a nice dress tonight." And Joan's like, "Thank you." And Betty goes, "But I can't." And they're like going back and forth a mile a minute and then eventually Betty White is like, "All right, let's straighten up and fly right." And they do the interview proper. But like, I just want to like, yeah, I want to be a part of that. I want to like, I want to like entertain. I want to be like, really? I want to make this stuff silly again. - I totally get it, the, the, the, um, I forget, like I maybe read several things about this, but one thing was like a piece on like late night and how like podcasts actually are now the version. Like that late night isn't really subversive anymore. It's not really taking any risks. Is that the right word? You used the word subversive? - Oh, yeah. - And that like, there was an autobiography, or is it an autobiography or biography on Arsenio Hall? And kind of the risks that he took as one of those late night shows. And when you look at some of those clips and the questions that were being asked and the risks that people were taking back in those days, that's why people were staying up late. Like that's what it made, that's why it made it late night. It was like, you were like, oh my God, we're gonna see something that's like, not allowed. Whereas like now you kind of know what to expect from the monologues and I love it. I still watch it, I love, excuse me, I love them so much, but it's like, yeah, it's kind of more like on podcasts now or like, you know, something like Z-Way, like where you're getting the stuff that's kind of off the beaten path. Yeah, it's this weird, we've also had a cultural, like I've noticed this cultural thing that we're doing now. We're like, people will comment on things and be like, oh my God, her approach to this press tour, oh my God, his media training, oh my God, shout out to his publicists. Like, whoa, his team knows what they're doing. It's like, what the fuck? Or the opposite being like, what is their team doing? (laughing) I'm just like, we know too much now, like I feel like the mystique is gone. Well, that's the thing is like it's so protected by publicists and stuff and also people, there's so much access to information that it's like even me right now. Like, what am I saying? That like could potentially be controversial. And it's like, I think you just have, like how do we get to a place where it's like, like kind of like what you're saying, where you're kind of like, like, like, like, you know, it's like, can we all get gestures passed? Let's get gestures passed for everybody. It's like, yeah, you just have to weather it. Like, I think that's, there's two approaches it feels like right now in the culture. And I don't begrudge anybody their approach. I understand all the reasons you have a business. You have people to take care of. But like, though there's the one approach which is like, clean it up, tighten it up, stay on message, look pretty, do the thing. Like, don't fucking veer and just stay out of trouble at all costs. And that is a totally understandable approach. I get it. But then there's this other approach that I guess I'm advocating for, which is like, let's be authentic, let's be a little messy, let's have fun, let's trust that people know our hearts. And also, let's just be prepared to weather the storm. Every week people are mad at me for something I said. And I'm like, they're just gonna have to get over it. Because I'm kidding around. How do you know the people are mad at you? I don't know as much anymore. It still makes its way to me, usually, impassing by one of them saying something. (laughing) I used to read and so I used to really intimately know and stress about it. But it's like comments on Instagram or it's like-- Oh, it's comments, it's threads. The people have started, like, not necessarily threads the app, but it's people will like, people will do like a thought post about something I've said, it's videos. It's usually, like, well-intentioned people that are humorless, I'm just talking the truth. These are humorless people that are well-intentioned. They have good values. We have the same, we actually have the same values in the world most of the time. And then there's a whole other version of it, which is like people are just mad that I'm fat and gay and they're like me. - Sure, sure. - That's a different thing. I could never care about that. - Right, right. That's just like, you're always gonna have some haters. - Yeah, I'm fat and gay, you hate me, no worries. Like, that's fine. And then there's the ones that really bother me, which is people that actually share the same values in the world, they're just uptight, humorless, boring, wokescolds. And I get it because at one point I was like them, and it's because I cared so much that I didn't know what to do with all my caring. - But it's kind of like the left, I mean, without getting into politics, we can talk about, we can go back to Liza Minnelli. - Yeah. - But like, it's kind of the left's problem is the finger wagging. - Yeah. - You like, it's, oh my gosh, it's a lot. Like, you know, you can't, it's like, whoa, that's how it feels inside. It's like, I don't even want to say anything 'cause I'm like, oh, what can I say? It's like, I'm in trouble. - I've been saying lately, I do a lot of like college gigs and like toxic colleges. And I've been saying lately, like, part of what's going on with the left is like, if we want to win, and I don't even mean necessarily elections, I mean like conversations. If we want to win like ideological conversations, we have to stop finger wagging and we have to stop talking down. And we have to invite people to the party. We are having so much more fun. It's so much more fun to be nice to trans people to love immigrants. Like, we are having more fun. It should be an invitation to the party. That's like, actually, we're not, we're not going to police every single word you say. If you want to join the party and be cool, we'd love to have you. And I think, yeah, the problem with culture right now, one of the problems is that we have become so punishing and so, like. - I mean, merciless and ruthless. Like, it's like, we have mean, mean, mean. It's like so not cool or nice to be mean. Like, there is, I hate mean. - Yeah. - Mean is like something that, like, brings me back to the horrible, like middle school days. Like, mean just isn't cool. - Yeah. - It's not nice. It's mean. (laughing) - No, it's lame. Like, don't be mean. Just don't be mean. Like, like, but yeah, I don't, you know, the internet makes it easy. - Well, you're raising a kid right now. What do you think? Like, what do you think is the most important thing? Like, when you think about raising a person. - I'm raising a kid and it's like, you said kid and I was like, oh my god, look a rainbow. Like, my eye immediately was like, oh, what is like, like, kid, like colors. Like, your room looks like very like kid. - It's a little kid, it's a little, it's a little playful. - Yeah. - What do you think is the most important thing? Like, what do you think about the most when you think about like, what you want this kid to have? - Okay, I want this kid to have a sense of adventure and not fear of anyone else. I am like, so I am doing things, like, I do not have a nanny, not because I don't want one nanny, it's not amazing, but because we don't really live in one place right now. So, I have a lot of local babysitters and because a lot of the babysitters are students or like go to school or have other jobs, there's a mix of babysitters in each place. And I am the opposite of like kind of this, we have to acclimate our child to the people because I'm kind of like, you know, if I know that it's safe, my child will figure out that it's safe. Like, even if it's like the first time that she's meeting this person, I'm like, I have to go, sorry. Like, I'll see you in a few hours. - I want to be, yeah. - Like I did before coming here. I want like, not to be afraid of other people. That's like my one of the biggest things because I think having an open mind that a sense of adventure and a sense of like, that's how you make the world your oyster. Like, it's when all of a sudden you feel like, like you have access to all these different opportunities through all the different kind of people that you know. If that makes sense. So that's like one of the big things right now is like, just as many people, anybody, oh, you're like 16 years old and you're like, I just started babysitting. It's like, why don't you spend a few hours like babysitting, I'll go to the movies, which I barely have time to do anymore. But like, that's like kind of one of the big things. It's just, yeah, a sense of adventure. Like, I don't really, you know, like I'll let her ride the escalator. Like, in my head, I'm like, are there parents going to be watching this being like, oh my god, she's still irresponsible. Like, this is horrible. But like, I let her ride the escalator a year and a half. I let her ride that escalator alone. And people will be like, oh, oh, oh, oh. And I'm like, oh no, it's fine. Like, I'm watching her. And yes, she's fallen while getting off the escalator. She's okay. Like, I'm very hands off in a way that surprises even myself. But I find myself surprised by me, yeah. But, but yeah, I don't know. I just feel that, I don't know, it's kind of cool. Also, I felt really validated because Jennifer Lawrence once gave an interview pretty recently about like playing with her young child and how she like puts an air pot in and listens to a podcast or something. And I was like, oh my god, great. Yeah, I was like, I thought I invented that, but I'm so glad to see that other reward. I'm actually not alone, yeah, yeah, but yeah, so I don't know what your question but-- - You nailed it. - Okay, great. - Yeah, it was about what's most important. I think all the time about the kids in my life and like the things I want to give them and the presents I want to be in there. Mostly I'm like, because I'm not any of their parent, I'm just like, my big thing is like, I just want you to feel like you can talk to me and like talk to me about anything and like I'm a safe person that like, yeah, I'm here if you need to talk about things that you don't want to talk to mom and dad or dad and dad or mom and mom or whatever about or like whatever the situation is. But the number one thing I would like to give these kids that you just can't give them is like just like data, like resilience of like, you will, you will come up against really hard things. Life will be really, really hard and you, it will suck. And the first couple of times that happens to you when life gets really hard, you will feel like everything is crashing down and I feel like the universe is causing it on you and it'll be about something like not getting in the play or on the team or whatever. And then you'll get through it. And then the next time something similar to that happens, you'll have this data and this like backlog of like, that happened and I got through it and all I needed to do was like give it time and this that and the other. It's the data that you have to like, build on your own of your own life. Like knowing that other people did it is like, beautiful in the point of art in many ways but also just like can't give you the resolve of like I can do things. - I know that I'm like tearing up. (laughing) - Okay, she's really a mom. (laughing) Falling crying at the concept of resilience, I know that's fucking right. I want to be funny on this podcast. (laughing) - I did not want to cry about resilience, I wanted to be funny. - No, I think that's really beautiful and really true and really like, yeah, life is hard. Like it's hard and it's also like hard on a scale for everyone, it's hard for people on different scales and different but you just wanna always make sure that you have people in your life that you can turn to. I mean, now as an adult, like yeah, you remember as a kid, like who were the people, like your parents' friends, your aunts and uncles or cousins or whatever, were the people that you could turn to. - Yeah. - Outside of also of your parents. So yeah, but also it's really fun to have a naked baby running around. That's like, that's why people should have kids. - Well it's so fun because they don't really know how to move and so they're just like kind of like trying out throwing different body parts and it's really fun. And then yeah, they're always naked. - Oh, naked, like now it's like pointing to the diaper. - Get this shit off of you. - Yeah, and then it's like, oh, we're gonna put another one on, no you're not. (laughing) And then it's like, oh, he really should all just be naked running around all the time. - Yeah. - It was like me in high school, I was naked a lot. - Yeah. - And once a senior year, we had like walker rooms and I would do something, this is very embarrassing, but I would do something called the boob dance, where I would just kind of be naked and I would jump up and down to get my boobs and go like, oh my gosh. (laughing) - And I thought it was like, I was like, this is so cool. (laughing) - So cool. - Were you doing it for other people? Like showing them, like, look at the boob dance. - Oh yeah. - I'm obsessed. - And this is my senior year. So was ruling the school. I was a senior year, but then this little freshman girl when they went and complained. Was just like, this is, I don't like that. - She invented and introduced the concept of shame. (laughing) (laughing) - The fucking snake in the garden, this girl. She complained about the boob dance? - She did. - Oh my god, do you know where she is? Now I know you won't say it, but do you know? - I don't even know who it was. - Wow. - I just know that someone complained. - Oh, I would love to know. I mean, obviously we would never say, but I would love to know, like, who was it and what became of them? To complain about the boob dance. The boob dance is harmless. - The boob dance was like, like, (laughing) and it was like, and also, like, because I was trained in a ballet dancer, I don't really have, like, cool dance moves. So when I would go out, like, you know, the, like, New York City teenager, like, sneaking out, going to clubs at, like, 17 years old, I had, like, a one signature move. - Yeah. - And it was, like, it was, it was similar to the boob dance. (laughing) And it was just, like, it involved, like, going like this. - Yeah. - Side, side. - As you should. - Yeah. - That is so funny. I hate the idea that you were reprimanded for the boob dance. - I know, but you know what? I've done it several times since then. Like, I was like, okay, I can't do it in school anymore, but then I got it back. - Dude, I remember the locker room was such a, there was this big thing at my school where, like, elementary school, you don't change out for gym. And then it was like, when you get to sixth grade, you start changing out for gym. That was like a thing that we all knew. - Yeah. - And I would say starting in fourth grade, I began to have this, like, terrible anxiety about changing out for gym because I was fat and I was like the only fat boy in my class. And I was like, oh my god, and my body was such a sight of, like, confusion and embarrassment. And I was just like, oh my god, like, how am I gonna, and also around like third grade was when I started to feel, like, I didn't really have words for it at the time, but I started to understand that I was like, gay. And so I was like, oh my god, like, being naked with these guys. Like, what, what if I have a crush? And I'm like, what if I can, like, a boner? Like, the whole thing was like, it's that thing where I'm like, I literally felt like the universe was collapsing on it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And I was like, this will destroy me. And I spent like two fucking four years in telling no one because it was so complicated. I didn't tell anyone, like, not my friends, not my mom. And then I felt shame because I told my mom everything. And I was like dealing with this thing that I wasn't telling her. It was the only thing I wasn't telling her. Two years of like, agony about this. And then I remember the first day of Jim Coston's sixth grade when we had to change out. And it was like, no big deal. (laughing) It was like, yeah, no one was looking at each other. Everyone was embarrassed. Like, there was one guy who was like, like, very classically being like, well, let's be together with the towels or whatever 'cause he watched like a movie he shouldn't have. (laughing) But other than that, everyone was just like, towel around them underwear off, like, in their own space. And then there was another part where, like, some of the boys were more brazen about it, good for them. But I, it was no big deal. And it was one of the first times that I was like, you really spent two years like being sick. Sometimes it would come to me in the middle of a day when I hadn't thought about it for a second. And I would just be like, oh, I was so anxious. I know. And then it was nothing. But we can ask you something. So, you know, you said there that you knew that you were gay. Yeah. But when you first came out, you said you were bisexual. Yes. So, what, can you explain with that experience? It was like, to be like, I think I was gay, then I thought I was bisexual because you love Julia Roberts. But then you thought you were gay. So basically what I mean by I knew I was gay was like, there was this, I have like a pretty vivid memory of like, in, I look back on a lot of things from before, like third grade, even when I, a lot of the like feelings that I felt that I didn't have words for, they weren't romantic and they weren't sexual because I was a child. But there were feelings that I was like, oh, this is different. And then like third grade, we were doing like playground marriages. Like everyone was getting married on the playground. Kids are so weird. Yes. And I remember, maybe I said it out loud, but for some reason or another, I came to my mind that I wanted to marry like my friend Tyler. I was like, if we're like, that's why I came out with the most, like that I want to marry Tyler. And then I think I said it to someone and they're like, oh, no, that's just because he's your friend. This is a different thing. And I was like, oh, okay, marriage is not your friend. It's like a different thing. But I was like, no, I, and I was kind of like, oh, yeah, for sure, but in my head I was like, I think I actually knew that it was a different thing. And I was into it. And then from there on, I was like, oh, I started to learn like around then I came up in church and like gay was, gay was bad. And it was a thing like there was no like nuanced conversation around like human sexuality at my church in Missouri. So bisexual was not like an op. There was no other thing. Right, it was like gay is bad. Right, there was no curiosity. There was no exploration. There was like, if you do this thing, you are bad. And this is the right thing. And then I really did think I was for all the frotness I seem to have had with the bi community over the years. I do love you guys. But I really thought like, oh, maybe I'm bi because I love women. And I love hanging out with women. And there were girls that like, I had such a strong feeling for that I was like, maybe that's love. And then it came time to like be physical with the girls like to like make out and stuff. And I was like, wait, not into this. But I was into the feeling of like someone wanting to kiss me and me wanting to make them feel good in the connection of like, the were girls that I dated that I was like, I have so much love for you that I'm just confused. And then the first time I hooked up with a guy, I was like, oh, that is so clearly like the only thing I want to be doing. Sure. And I was like, that is like, that's the ticket. Maybe that's the good stuff. [LAUGHTER] I was like, whoa, what's going on here? And I was like, oh, shit, we figured it out. What was going on inside your body at that moment? Oh my god, all the little guys were like, never get us out of this, all the little guys in my body that were trying to come up with a joke earlier. They're sipping drinks out of coconuts. They're relaxing on the beach. Yeah, but then I was like, I came out as by anyway, because I felt that it would be like a softer launching point. A lot of people have had a problem with that when I've said it. That's the reality, grow up. Sorry, sometimes things have to be easier when you're from rural Missouri. And yeah, and then I basically in college, I just kind of was like, everyone just kind of new. Yeah. I think when I met Chance, you just knew. I was like, just out at that point. Yeah, yeah. And you thought it was weird, you told me it was a sim. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] I know we don't feel that way. Yeah, I know, I know. But John's a job, right? Yeah, that was the journey. But yeah, I think it was so confusing. And it would have been so much less confusing had we just had. I didn't-- my mom's household was not a concern. conservative and intense place to grow up. My mom had gay friends, my mom was very open. It was all the outside shit. - Yeah. - What I worry about with my little cousins were both boys that I'm like, they're being raised in such a progressive, loving, like feminist household, that their dad is so great and their mom is so great, like, and even my extended family, like they have so much love and support and like good values and I'm just so fucking worried about these boys that they're gonna be around in the way that that's gonna hold so much more weight than mom and so much more weight than dad. And I'm just, I actually just read The Will to Change by Bell Hooks, have you read it? - No, I haven't. - It's phenomenal. And I've been thinking a lot about this because it really is the, like when patriarchy starts to like hurt boys, the first, like the real first sight where it really takes hold even if you're raised in a feminist household is with the boys you're friends with. - Yeah. - And it's so intense. - Yeah. - I worry about it. - Yeah, we need to like, we need to just give all boys little strollers to push around. - Little strollers to push around. - And a conversation. Yeah, I think a more, I will say my mom, we've talked a lot in my adulthood about like, like I said, she was never like repressive or conservative in any way, but she definitely I think had some like, insecurities about being a single mother and what it meant to raise a man as a single mother. And so sex wasn't really talked about a lot and like some open conversations about sex, I think would have been really healthy and like productive. - Yeah, that's a good one. My, I had a bored game to learn about sex. - Did you? - Yeah, and it was not sex, you know, I mean, I'll just, I'll never forget the story of the book. It was a book and a bored game. - Yeah. - And it was like how you make a baby. - Yeah. - Okay, so that was like the sex that I was taught and it was a book and I'll never forget this. In the book, they start out with a couple that was like going to work in the morning, I might be getting some of this wrong, but the main stuff is right. They were like going to work in the morning and they were really looking forward to seeing each other at night. And then they saw each other at night, but then they got into a big fight and they didn't want to talk to each other. And then like one of the pictures is like the, the man like making food and then the, it's like the woman like doing something else and they're like not talking. But then like one of them apologizes to the other and they start to like be like okay. And then they like start hugging and the hugging leads to kissing. Like, I'll never forget there was like a fight before the sex. (laughing) And then they start making out and one thing looks to another and they go to the bedroom and then it was like you learned like the, you know, the penis going into the vagina. I don't know if it showed that but it showed the two people in bed and then it like explained the sperm's journey to like, you know, the egg and all that. And I remember my mom, I was like homesick from school one day and my mom like presented the board game to me. That's how I learned about it. It was like through the board game. And then we had friends over a few days later and I said mom, mom, mom, I want to play the board game with whoever the girl was. That was over. And my mom sat into the friends and was like, oh, it's like a board game about like conception or whatever, sex and how you have a baby. And the parents were like, ooh, I don't think so. (laughing) - I don't think it was our kid playing with your weird daughter's sex board game. (laughing) - And I was like, oh, that's so weird. I can't play the game too. - And then I was like, oh, I guess there's like something like, like wrong about this game. Like this game is like, like hot. (laughing) - That is so funny. There was no other conversation. It was in game. It was just a game. - I need to find that game. I need to know about that game. - Oh, I need to know what that game is too. Maybe you can try and look it up. - It was called the Nelson game. (laughing) It was from Eunice. - No, it was like sex. It was like. - Sex marks the spot, sex on the cards. Sex educate me. - It was like, it was about how to make a baby for kids. You do some research, Chance. A lot of us know what you find. I want to know so bad. I mean, yeah, it's such a, it's so, it's so fucking, I also have like, obviously, total grace because it's like, who wants to fucking talk about sex with kids? I know it's so fucking awkward. So I'm like, I don't know, I guess what I would have had you do. I don't have a kid. I don't know how I would approach it. But it is weird. - Don't you think it's just that you don't ever hide it? - Right. - Like, sex to sex. - Yeah. - So it's like, at one point, like the question of like, how did I come to be? You could say, well, like, two people loved each other very much. And like, when you love someone, you can express it. And when you express it, you can express it in different ways. And there's a way in which you can express it and which you can have a baby. You know, like, variance of something like that. And then like, little by little, you know, and you tailor it to your particular family. So it's like. - Yes, but I think you're totally right. And that is a healthy way to do it. The thing that gets me tripped up is like, home has a really funny story about this, or my friend home's, but like, just when the kids start getting, when their body is changing. - Yes. - And when the things are happening, like, you know, they are, like, a lot of times girls will be masturbating and not know it yet. They don't know why they're doing that. Or like, boys are getting erections all the time. Those are the moments when I'm like, okay. I do not, there's no part of me that wants you to feel ashamed. Also, you can't be jerking off in front of company. (laughing) - But like, can't you hold that private time? - Yeah. - Just be like, oh, that's totally fine. Like, go do private time. I'm pulling this out of my butt right now. - But don't you get scared that it'll be like, shame, like, go do that away. Don't let anyone know that you do that. - Oh. - I get scared. I'm like, I just want you to feel, it's such a fucking tight wire. And you're gonna, the thing is you're gonna mess up no matter what. It's just gonna be weird. But I'm like, how do you make sure it's like confidence? - Okay, what if it's like this? What if it's that, like, nudity is never wrong? - Yeah. Like, like, like, you have guests over and like, your kid is like naked or whatever. You know, 'cause you get to a certain age where like, you don't really want to be naked. But like, let's talk about like, when you're like, young, young, and you're kind of like, oh, I'm just wearing like, underwear on my head. And that's fine. But then when it like comes to, I don't know, like, masturbation or anything else, like, it's kind of like, oh, like, that's totally fine, but that part of being naked, it's good to do that alone. - Yeah, oh, it's good. You know what? Good to do that alone is nice. - Maybe it's like that. - That's nice, you're gonna be okay at this stuff. - I don't know, we'll see. - You're gonna hit it when this comes around. - You should give your kids the board game. You should give your kids the board game. - I need to find the board. Have you found the board game? - I mean, in this post, you know, there's too much humanity, hellscape we live in. Every sex board game is, there's too many results. - Okay, well, I'm gonna, I'll have to figure it out and I'll have to, I'll have to follow up about it. - Figure it out and let us know, 'cause we don't have to, we don't have to stock it on our merch site. - You do a club? - We use a parenting podcast more than anything. - Oh God, no. - Not this episode, I'm talking about so true in general. - Oh, so true in general, okay. - This podcast, first and foremost, was started to help parents raise their children. And I think we've done an incredible job. - This is the closest I think I came, is that, does that ring a bell? - No, it's not that. It like, you know what, there's gonna be one other thing this might speak to some of the women who are listening to this podcast, but there was that puberty book that every single girl was given. I don't remember what it was called. That puberty book had character like drawings in it and I think it was the same artist. It could be completely wrong. - I remember the day in like fifth grade when they told us that they were like, "All right, we're gonna, boys are gonna go to one room "and girls to another. "We're gonna talk about boy and girl stuff." I was pissed, 'cause I was like, "Where are you taking my girls?" (laughing) I was like, "Bring back my girls." I was so livid. I was like, "No, you can't take my girls." I was infuriated and then we go in another room and they're like, "You guys have to wear a deodorant." I'm like, "So do the girls." "Bring my girls in here now." - What were the girls told, did you ever find out? - They, it was different. It was like, the thing is there are parts about it that I'm like, there are, like, it makes sense like the different things they were talking about, but then I found out from one of my girlfriends that they were like, there was like a conversation about like, you know, if someone ever like asked to touch you and you don't want them to, you're allowed to say no, and I vividly remember they did not say that to us. And I was like, that applies to everybody. That is like a conversation that you've been having. - You could have been teaching the class. - Hello. I was like, I remember being like, why didn't they tell us that? Like I was like, now as an adult, I'm especially like, why didn't they tell us that? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - But yeah, I remember there was like a consent piece to theirs that we, I will say we had, I remember in middle school, we had a consent conversation that was actually like, really informed and cool by a male teacher that I still remember. But in fifth grade, no such thing for the boys. - Wow, that's interesting. - Yeah. - Can I ask you another question? - You can. - What was it like to film the Delaware's Prada too? (laughing) - We're turning the tables, it's actually become my problem. - It's your show. - That's the way to do it, by the way. That's my big secret. I mean, dude, it was so cool. It's so funny that like, how do I say this? So many people have asked in my life and also for press. What was it like working with Merrill and Ann and Stan and Emily? And I'm like, all the things you would think, of course, fantastic, of course, amazing. Genuinely, one of the things I was most excited about before the table read and then especially after, was like our crew of like you and Simone and Helen and Daniel and like every like all the like young, like the new crowd basically, that I was like that. is so fucking cool that like we are like so many of us are doing like TV and theater and music and like comedy and like we're from all these different parts of the like creative kind of like world and now we're getting to be in this movie I was just so excited about that and then when we got to hang out on set I was just like this is the coolest thing ever. I know the day was it like two days that we worked together one day was three I was at least two so fun yeah like was so fun it was the best um can you even believe it no it's crazy how did you feel that like what that I feel I still feel that way like first of all that movie is is is perfect the first one um if you it it is timeless yeah and also did you when you like first read the script the second one my thought was like Aline Bros. McKenna predicts the future because like this was like before on a winter you know announced that she was kind of retiring from Vogue-ish and it was like oh this is like not even that the movie necessarily addresses that but it's like it was so finger on the pulse yeah I was I just wow I she's so great everyone was so great I'm like wow and also the outfit yeah I was nervous because I didn't know I was like oh with this big fashion movie and I love the I have so much like the original means like you like all of us original is like holy fucking grail to me and I was so nervous about the costumes because I didn't know Molly and I didn't know Danny who we're doing and I mean I knew of Molly's work right but I was like I've had so many nightmare experiences as a fat person in this industry it is so horrific they I will go I've gone to photoshoots where they they asked me to do the photo shoot can we please photograph you for our publication and I go and they do not have a single piece of clothing that fits me like they just don't they are not prepared they're not used to having a fat person in them they have no idea what to do and I knew I had like trust of course I was like this is a huge movie with a huge like talented it will be fine but I didn't know the extent to how awesome it would be and Danny and Molly who like predominantly worked on my character Charlie's clothing we're so fucking prepared it was crazy okay the movie when did you how did you find out you were gonna be oh my gosh I was gonna ask you the same thing okay I found out okay so I put myself on tape for you know I was not given the script or anything it was like two really short scenes and one was for Alana the character I didn't playing and the other one was for Marta the one that Priya plays Priya plays and I was like um I was like oh my god I'm so excited about it for those I did like 80 takes like I was just like oh my god and for sure was like well if I get one it's gonna be Marta like Alana just I didn't I didn't vibe and then I didn't hear anything except my agent who texted me was like you're pinned for devil words product too I had never heard the word pinned like I I didn't I was like pinned like I was like you heard that years that's like I'm an old because then I'm read it helped me understand that it had to do with like being pinned to the wall of like where they were okay so but so I was like okay and then I didn't hear anything for a really long time and then I got a phone call from like to mage and she were like like congrats on devil words product too and I was like oh my god I I'm I'm gonna do it and they were like yeah we were calling I was like oh okay great and I was so excited yeah that was that was how I found out that's so how did you find out I was kind of on I had kind of told my team like I'm not auditioning right now like I was like I'm tired I'm going out for so many things it's taping is so much work as you know so much work and I was like you know I'm like going on tour I'm like working on the I think I was working on the hour I was about to put the hour out or something and I was like I'm just like I'm good on auditioning right now I was like you can send whatever you want but it's probably all knows and then of course this came through and I was like well I think we all know I'll be taping for that and same thing I like I like and but it didn't say what my role was it the role like it said like assistant to character I had never heard of yeah and I was like why would there be a character I've never heard of that has an assistant with this many lines and I was like I think that's a fake out but whatever and I was like I don't care regardless it was it was an interesting character I liked the character and that's why I was like it taped and then sent it off and really did forget about it because I was like I really genuinely is like I am not getting this role and that's okay I want to audition anyway yeah and not because I didn't think I'd be great at it but because I was just like I can think of like the five gay guys who get a role like this and I will be very happy for them when they do and then I was at lunch with my friend Sydney Washington who's been on the show who's very funny we were getting lunch in Brooklyn it was raining and I my team my team has not asked me this but they've intimated that I need to they're like they're like basically they asked me a number of times when we got really good news if I was excited and happy because I am very like logistically like business mind I hear something and I'm like I will be excited so excited internally and happy and grateful and later on when I'm alone with the thought like a day later I'll cry and be so happy and excited and have all the emotions but in the moment I'm like what is the rate what is the shooting location where we going what is it fit into the calendar like will they put me up like what I just start thinking and so oftentimes when I get big career defining news my reaction will be like okay sounds good email me the information and I'll get back to you guys like I'm just very like that what but they had given they had given me their reactions already in the past to things where I had kind of not given them enough because they work so hard they were right of course and I am and they know that but anyway they told me there was a big call with a bunch of them they're like they're like hey I hope you're still free in whatever September or whatever like because you'll be filming the devil worst product to us Charlie and if my brain did the thing where I was like okay yeah we'll squeeze that in between whatever but but I caught myself and I was like oh my god I'm like standing in the rain I was like you guys we did it but my brain is still being like how are we gonna fit the like what are we gonna do so logistics wow but I did the performance and they were all very pleased and I was that happy but then I went back in the lunch with Sydney and she was like what was that and I was like I think I'm gonna be in the devil worst product oh my god it's like crazy you can't even also I will say I have had so many friends especially in comedic roles book something huge and then get like completely cut out no mention no sight yeah and so there is always this thing in the back of my head that I'm like even when I've showed up on set even when I've done the job I try to keep it real contained and humble because things change and it has most of the time nothing to do with you a hundred percent it's like I think you even said on one of the year your episodes I forget who the guest was but you were saying when you got cast in Fargo and your mom like posted on Facebook and it's like no no no you have to take that down like I feel the exact same way like it's not until it's out like like I can't it's it's not real yet like it'll be real on May 1st when it's in theaters go see it it'll be very real then yeah it's um you just don't want to like jinx it or also you just yeah you're in so little control of what it is in the end but um that's that's amazing that your brain you kind of like act like your own manager or you're like okay like we have to get into the logistics to make sure that it's not the logistics that are gonna prevent me from doing it like we have to really like we have to really just know what's going on yeah I'm sure on some level like it's like well I think part of it's just that I came up so DIY and like doing everything myself that I still I'm getting much better but I still struggle internally with like handing things off and giving things over and don't worry I'm working on it y'all um they're they're all probably right now like no you don't but I do and it's hard and I and then I think also it's probably on some level if I was in therapy they would probably tell me it's some level of trying to protect myself from yeah you know yeah from that thing if like am I gonna get cut out of this so they're gonna take it away are they gonna change their mind yeah it's really god it's so so strange to audition for things and just wait and hope and like I remember once I was really close to getting this play in Paris and I wanted this so bad and the director did something like so sadistic where she made the girl who I was up against and me audition like the final callback in front of each other and I remember I was like fully off book it was a long monologue I was fully off book I was like I want this more than anything and the other girl I was up against was not off book and like kept like forgetting things and be like oh sorry sorry sorry so I was like okay well like the proof is in the pudding I fucking did the work say that and I did not get the part I wailed like someone had died I remember like being on the floor of my studio apartment slamming the ground and just being it doesn't it doesn't get better I mean it's like it's never gonna go up and then like I think four months later I cast on sex size of college girls but see very different than your reaction when I was told I got cast on sex size of college girls I said shut the fuck up and then the next day I called My agent manager at the time back, and I said, "I'm really sorry." Like, that was so inappropriate of me to say. And they were like, "No, we totally get it." But I felt so guilty. Like, still, I'm like, "Oh my God, you said, like, shut the fuck up." That's like so rude. But it was like, that was my reaction. That is so funny. I had, there was a role, like, two years into me acting. I'd been up for so many things. I'd gotten none of them. I mean, I'd done, like, Fargo and stuff. Like, I had done my original things. But then there was this real period of, like, the only thing going was internet stuff. And I was so, like, I don't want to be doing internet stuff. It just doesn't fill me up. Like, I just don't know what to do. And I got really close. I got, like, third callback chemistry test with Andrew Reynolds. And I loved the show. And I knew many of the writers. And I knew, like, the producers. And I was like, I'm going to get this. Like, something's finally going to go. And then I didn't get in the guy who got it is so great. I forget his name, but he was wonderful in it. And I was just like, after that, I was so devastated. And it was, like, months of me being like, you might need to just, like, find another passion. Like, this might not happen for you. This is me all the time. I feel like it's-- I constantly feel like I'm not doing my career right. I'm like, I'm not doing this right. And I don't know what right is per se. Like, you know, I'm kind of like, oh, I should be, like, fully devoted to living in LA. Or, like, fully doing something I'm not. And I constantly feel like I'm not doing it right. And that people know I'm not doing it right. And they're like, yeah, not her. We're not really interested in her. Like, I find that any time I actually was on the dog very best friend the other day who had a self-tape. And she was like, well, I really want this one. So we know what that means. But you're not going to get it. And I had that the other day too. I had this Zoom audition. And I was like, I want this so badly. And like, I usually, like, like, I just say it. Like, I'll say it. I'm like, just, please, I just want this so badly. To them? Yes! I love that. And I think that like, sometimes I think my, like, earnestness and sincerity, like, is, it's not a quality. Like, I should have a persona of something else. Because I think that it, like, I cannot but feel like sometimes it's the thing preventing me from getting from like booking roles. But I had this thing and I was like, I really want this. So do you have everything you need? They were like, well, we're happy if you're happy. I'm like, yes, I'm happy. But like, do you have everything you need? Like, I'm just so, you know, but whatever. It's so hard. The auditioning stuff is so, so hard. And I, oh, God, I really-- it's like, I sometimes I, like, rue the day that-- I rue the day COVID happened. But like, where, you know, everything became Zoom. And like, because I'm like, I don't see anyone, any person anymore. And then other days, I'm like, no, this is the best thing that could ever happen because you can now be in control. But like, I do 80 takes. Like, whoever's doing the self-tape with me is like, oh, my God. No, no one. I'm like, and the thing is, I go with like the second one each time. But like, I don't learn my lesson. Yeah. It's, oh, God, I just, I love working. And so, and you know, the ego of an actor is also that you like being chosen. Yeah. And so it's hard sometimes when you go for like a long period without being chosen because you're like, what's wrong with me? Like, what am I doing wrong? Nothing. I love your earnestness and sincerity, by the way. OK. I think there are beautiful traits I think you should never lose them. And I have something really unfortunate to tell you, which is, I think I've booked like most of my jobs by 100% nagging them. Like, I'm like in the audition room being like, you guys can offer this to me if you want to, but I doubt I'll take it. And it's like clearly a joke. But I will say that anytime I've ever been-- You're so right, but it's like dating. It's like, it's dating. It's like, OK, everyone's like, no games. It's like, no, there has to be games a little bit like-- [LAUGHTER] You have to play games. Like, you can't just completely be like, you know, oh, I feel this way about you. And this is exactly what I'm looking for. Like, you have to play hard to get a little bit like, you have to be a little like, oh, little like cheesy, cheesy, like, oh, it's the same thing I'm convinced with auditioning. You're so right. I like never talk about my partner, but I'm going to give like an anecdote that he said, where he was like, he says, he was like, you know, people say that when you start dating someone, they're like, just be yourself. And he's like, that's actually not great advice. You don't want to be like completely yourself. The yourself is going to come out. You want-- like, you want to put in an effort, you know? You don't want to just like, immediately. Because like-- and that's the thing is like, yeah, that's where the romance builds. It's like a little like, let me show you the romantic side of me. And like, I kind of-- I fuck with that. Because I'm like, yeah, we want to like put in a little bit of like an effort, not just be like, oh, my god, I'm so obsessed with you. Like, no, stop, no, stop, no, stop. Like that kind of, you know, will crash and burn after a while. Yeah. I think. It'll fizzle. Maybe. What's so true to you? Oh, god, there's a lot. You know, I'm like some of your other guests. Don't I know it. And don't I know it. Try me and me. These people don't respect me, boy. I suffer from a case of like, earnestness, sincerity, and good students syndrome. So I have a few so true things. I'm going to do one that like is a little like trivial. But I feel pretty, I'm going to stand by it. Yeah. I think pitted olives should mean olives with pits. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think pitted olives, meaning that the pits have been taken out makes no sense. Yeah. Because they've really, they've been deep it is what they've been. They've been deep it. You're right. So that is so true to me. And can I say something else to that effect? Yeah. In my opinion, and I know I'm going to catch heat on this. There should never be a pit in there. I don't like them. Why is there something in there that can hurt me? Get him out of here. I know. But that's also a little rewarding. And take the shell off the shrimp. What are you saying? What are you saying? No. I eat the shell. Yeah. I eat that whole thing. I put that head in that tail. You eat the head. You eat the tail. You do not eat the tail. I do. I eat the tail. You do not. I do. No, you do not. I do. You're dead ass right now. I'm dead ass. Yeah. I had a Spanish friend growing up and her family made shrimp a lot. Yeah. And once it was her birthday party. Jamerones. Is that what they were called? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I speak zero Spanish. It's embarrassing. But I just speak French. You speak really good French. And Italian. Hello. I can get by Italian. OK. But they made shrimp for her birthday. And I was seated at the table, again, a case of earnestness and sincerity in wanting to be the best student. I made sure I was the best, like, most proper child at the table. Yeah. And there were kids being like, oh, my God, why are we not having pizza? Like, what is the shrimp? Whatever. And I saw the dad, like, just eat the shrimp pole. And so I started doing it. And this girl's mom came over to me and was like, oh, my God. Like you. You're a really good eater. You're sick. Like this white girl's got motion. I don't know why. I don't know why. She's eating the tails. Oh, my God. Like, and then I was like, this is how you're supposed to eat. The shrimp. Yeah. So, anyway, that is going back to your, your shell, your, you know, the skin on the shrimp thing. Oh, my God, dude, I, I want it taken off because I can eat, oh, here's what I can do. I can eat, I can't eat the tail. I can't eat the head. Okay. I can handle, or the legs. I can handle the little shell on it. That's fine. But preferably if you're making shrimp, I prefer that you just, you can come out with the tail on it. But when they bring it out, full head, full tail, legs, the skin, I'm like, I'm hungry didn't I? I don't have time to be going to work right now. You know, like, you know, like having to work for your food. Not at all. Yeah. I had this thing where like, I hated, I was vegetarian for a really long time and I didn't, I couldn't eat meat. Like, I just couldn't do it. And then I was in Zimbabwe and I was on this like, kind of almost month long trip with my best friend and her mom who works for Doctors Without Borders. And we went around the country and our guide, this amazing guy named Sam one night was like, we're going to go get a chicken for dinner. So there was no like saying, I'm sorry, I just don't eat meat. It was like, okay, like, I'm going to have to just eat the chicken and the strangest thing happened. Well, first of all, the story of getting the chicken was really just walking into like a woman's property with chickens riding around and him being like, we're going to take that one. They rung the neck at the chicken, they put it in a white bag. We go to where we were staying, Sam was like, I have to get something from the car. The chicken came back to life, the chicken came back to life. The bag like fell off the table, never have I jumped up on a chair faster. And then Sam came back and he was like, you just have to ring the neck again. And I was like, I'm, I can't, come on, stop it, but he did it. And then I was like, if I'm going to eat this chicken, I have to watch exactly how it is made. So I went out back with Sam and I did the whole thing. I poured boiling water on the chicken to take all the feathers off, like cut it open, took out all the pieces we weren't going to eat, then we like, you know, grilled it. And I ate it and I really enjoyed it. And so I realized that I'm the opposite. I think that like in order to eat, especially like animal products, I need to like see the whole kind of thing. I get a little grossed out if I don't know where it's coming from. I like seeing the sight of you. [BLANK_AUDIO] frightening and also fascinating and beautiful. You're so much stronger than me. I'm like very impressed and intimidated. If I watch someone cut the head off the chicken, I'm not having dinner at all, period. Let alone that chicken. You're so strong and cool for that because that would freak me the fuck out. - Oh. - If it charged at me and then he was like, "Ring it's neck, we're gonna eat it." I'd be like, "I'm actually all good on food, brother." (laughing) Paul, you want to play a game? - Yeah, I know, yeah, I was playing. How are you feeling about the game? - I'm feeling really nervous about the game. - Yeah, you're gonna be great. - I probably won't. I'm really bad with rapid fire. - Okay, well, as you know, I'm gonna read you 15 statements. You're gonna tell me as quickly as you can if what I just said was true of false. And if you get 10 or more correct, we're gonna give you $50. - $50 dollars. - All right, you ready? - Yeah. - Okay, John Cena's real name is John Lombardo. - False. - False of John Cena. The Nintendo DS debuted in 2001. - False? - False 2004. Elephants are the largest land animals. - False. - True. (laughing) - Sarah Desert is in South America. - False. - False Africa. Bar college's motto is, "I shall give thee the crown of life." - True. - That is true. Kesha's six foot tall. - False. (laughing) - False, she's five nine. A hexagon has five sides. - A true. - False, six. - Six. (laughing) - You knowing? The great barrier reef is in the Indian ocean. - False. - That's in the Pacific. All insects have six legs. - False. - True. - I didn't know that. - Oberon is the king of the fairies in a mid-summer night's dream. - False. - That's true. - No, it's true, it's true, it's true. (laughing) - Tatiana's is lying or something, but yeah, whatever, okay. - The New York mix have won two NBA championships. - True. - And it's true. - The capital of Spain is Barcelona. - False. - False, and Madrid. Crocodiles can breathe underwater. - False. - False. - All months have at least 28 days. - True. - True. - The national animal of France is this one. - False. - False, it's the rooster. - Rooster. - How'd she do? (cheering) - You did a really good, 'cause technically I would, I'm not gonna give you 13, but there were two that you definitely knew that you second guess. I think you got 13. - Yeah, yeah, but it's okay. I'm bad with the rapid fire. I hate being under pressure. - You got 11. - Okay, 11, so I got $50. - Incredibly good student, you get $50. - Oh my gosh. - $50. - And that's our episode, dude. Do you wanna tell people, well, you're in the Devil Wars Prada? - You're in the Devil Wars Prada, so everyone needs to check out Caleb Herron in the Devil Wars Prada on May 1st. - They're going on, how else can people support you? Is there something they should watch or place they should go? - Actually, I might do this like Alvant Guard monologue in November in New York City. So if anybody wants to see that, it's gonna be at the Allience on the Upper East Side in the Sky Room, and maybe I'll post about it on Instagram. - Well, you remember to tell me about that, I really wanna-- - I will, it's Alvant Guard French Theater. - I can't wait. - Okay. - I just recently watched a woman in Europe scream for an hour straight while drinking a glass of milk. - Oh. - I'm down for the weirder. - What was this? - I'll tell you about love camera. - Okay, okay. - 'Cause I wanna tell you the four details.