152. Paul Llewellyn — Reimagine the Practice of Law

These days we're not competing with the law firm down the street. We're competing with the Amazon's, the Zappos, the Mandarin Orientos of the world. Let's Paul the Wellen, co-founder of Lewis and the Wellen, and the author of Unshackled reimagining the practice of law. So I want every touch of my firm to be a concierge, white glove service. I'm Michael Mogul, founder and CEO of Crisp, the nation's number one law from growth company. I've built my business through practice, not theory. Crisp started which is $500 to my name and has grown to over 8 figures in revenue over the last few years, earning a spot on the ink 500 lists of the fastest growing private companies in America. Our approach has been to take everything we've learned about generating massive growth within our own organization and help the country's most ambitious and committed law firm owners do the same for theirs. In each episode of this podcast, I sit down with innovative market leaders from the legal industry and beyond to learn from those who thrive in the face of adversity, challenge the status quo, and define what it means to be a true game changer. I sat down with Paul the Wellen to discuss why many lawyers enter the legal profession with admirable goals but often face disillusionment to satisfaction and burnout. The change is necessary to create a more humane and human center profession and why great attorneys are made not born. The great thing about lawyers you're always learning so I don't profess to know everything, I don't profess to get it exactly right every time. So I think just that culture of learning, what can I do to support you, my colleague, what bars associations you're interested in, where you'd like to speak at, and what can we do to further your career, how can we help you develop business, and again it's that just support to our team members, developing them as lawyers, developing their career. That's coming up on the Game Changing Attorney podcast. Before we begin today's episode, I want to remind you that we aren't beholden to any sponsors or run any ads on this podcast. This allows us to present all of our episodes raw and unfiltered. I'm not going to push any mate to order meal services on you or try to save you any money on your car insurance. That being said, I have one small request. If you receive any value from this podcast, please give it a five star review. Pay the fee so we can keep this podcast free. Well Paul, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. I love doing these in person. It's just like a different dynamic. I'll tell you when you do them remotely and virtually nothing in the story against that but we're obviously going to talk a lot about your book, you and I have known each other for a while, congratulations on published author, unshackled, reimagining the practice of law. What compelled you to write this book in the first place? I love my job. Every morning I wake up, I'm excited to get to work. But so many lawyers, they hate their job, high levels of dependency, depression, tragically suicide, clients often don't like us and I wanted every lawyer to feel like I do about their job. And it's interesting because it seems like there's multiple audiences for the book. There's obviously lawyers, well law firm owners, it seems like even those considering entering the practice of law and even law students that you're giving them kind of an all-access, this is really what it's like. Maybe it's not what you grew up watching, whether it was like suits or any of the legal TV shows. I know you even mentioned that throughout the book. Why is it so important to provide that perspective? Law School does a terrible job preparing people for the practice of law. And sure in law school, you might read Supreme Court opinions, that's not what we do in a day to day basis. So much for our job, it's talking to clients, you're on the phone. How do you deal with difficult clients? How do you get business? First and foremost, we are a business and it's just not taught, how do you get clients that type of thing? Business development, servicing clients, how should you treat clients? And so I wanted really to anyone in the law considering a career in law, all the public at large, this is what it is. And let's be candid, there are problems facing up profession and how can we make it better? I think just saying, well, this is how it is, that's not an answer. And so I certainly don't profess that all the answers, but at least I wanted to start the conversation. Yeah. So I'd love to go back a little bit if you could speak to your background. I would too be able to detect the British accent. But now you obviously live in California, if you could speak to your journey and how you enter the practice of law. Absolutely. Yeah. So I grew up in England and the reason I became a lawyer, the reason I wanted to be a lawyer was they show LA law and no longer around it first aired in the mid 1980s. So I was about 10 years old. And it was sent in this fictitious law firm, McKenzie Brakman, Cheney and Kuzak, and they had the family lawyer, the criminal lawyer, the civil litigator. And it glamorized the practice of law. It was exciting, each episode dealt with, there was some heavy issues, but just this pretty much was always served. So growing up, age 10, I announced my mother, that's the job I want. I want to be a litigator in Los Angeles. And I didn't get to know how I would do that, but then that's the life I wanted to live. And so then I studied law at Oxford University in England. And there was a firm in LA that had a program where they would take an Oxford law grad to spend a year at their firm in Los Angeles. So this was my dream opportunity, I get to live LA law for at least for a year. So I did that, I was a law clerk, I loved it. And I went back and I became a barrister, which is the English equivalent of a trial lawyer. You may have seen the wigs, the gowns on TV. And I was a criminal prosecutor in England, did that for about three years. Great experience, I was trying cases every day, but the California itch was still there. And luckily then I got a call from that same firm that I worked with in California. And they said, would you let come up full time? Would you let's be a lawyer in Los Angeles? So the fact I'm sitting here now, pretty obvious while I decided, so I took the California bar and that was 21 years ago. When you got to Los Angeles, what was it like compared to what you were seeing on LA law? Yeah, to a certain extent, it was more exciting. And of course, in LA law, every case last one episode, I was exposed to the realities of litigation. It can take years. But the cases we worked on, the trials, in my view, there is no greater drama than a jury trial, and I got to work on some great trials. And when the jury announced its verdicts, like I said, there is a great attention. What are they going to do? So it's interesting in a sense that it seems like the general public loves any sort of legal show, legal drama, judge Judy is one of the highest paid women on television as you describe in the book. And yet, the legal industry as a whole does not have the best reputation. So I'm curious, why do you think that is? I think many reasons. So I think to a certain extent, we are set up for failure. Because you mentioned shows like suits, Alimah Bill, the practice. And I think justice is quick in those cases. Justice is normally served. No one's talking about the bills or the long hours or the stresses. And I think clients often come to us at some of the most challenging times in their life. Someone's been in a catastrophic accident or they're going to a divorce or they've been charged with a crime. So often they're coming to us at these challenging times in their life. They have high expectations, often set up by TV. And I think the reality is that a profession can be hard hitting people, what? You mean it's not going to be resolved right away? You mean it's going to cost me how much? And I think also sometimes just the media is just forced in their portrayal of lawyers. I talk about it in the book and McDonald's coffee lawsuit. You mention that to most people, well, that's crazy. You spill coffee on her and she got millions, you know, I talk about the real facts of that case. And there have been hundreds of burns. The temporary true McDonald's was serving coffee as alleged in that case, would cause burns in just a matter of seconds. And ultimately the award was in the hundreds of thousands, not in a millions. And certainly we have problems of profession, but the McDonald's coffee lawsuit is not one of them. Yeah. It's interesting. I know in the book you describe that, you know, when you're watching this on TV, you see someone that, you know, they meet the client, then they go straight to trial, then they have some amazing outcome with, you know, with the jury. And then that's it. It ends, but they know and talks about the marketing meetings and operations and developing the firm's culture and all the things that happen in between and like the time spent working on the case and all of those different challenges that arise that really is the reality of the profession. So what do you do about that? Like how do you, it's essentially bridge the gap between what consumers, even the general public believes their experience should be with the lawyer? And then what it is? I think two ways. Number one is within as lawyers, how do we treat our clients? I think managing client expectations. You know, I do civil litigation and clients are often shocked to learn only about one percent of civil cases go to trial. So the chances they're even going to trial are very slim, managing their expectations. This is going to be a long process. It could be an expensive process giving them the budget at the outset, keeping them informed about what's happening. I'm in the case. And then the second branch, like I said, is educating the public, who is the public? It's our friends, it's our family, the colleagues, and so getting the word out about the profession. Almost all lawyers, I know they're good people. Most people become lawyers because they want to do good, they want to serve their clients, they want to dispense justice. So I think we need to try and bridge that gap between the perception and the reality. And speaking of that, I know you talk about just when most people think of law firms, they think of that portrayal even of big law, right? And yet, a lot of our audience and the people listening to this podcast are solos, small firms, some mid-size firms, what do you find the biggest differences between the two? So I was fortunate enough to, I worked big law for five years, I had a wonderful experience of big law, but big law, that's not the typical public that's not their experience with lawyers. So often, big law, you're working on better company litigation, primarily representing Fortune 500 companies, you know, there can be tens, hundreds, millions even more at stake. where it's obviously did rule a firm typically always but typically less at stake often you might be representing individuals as opposed to the larger corporations. So yes there's differences there the amount at state might be different but I think the principles I talk about in the book can apply equally firm culture how we treat our colleagues how we treat our young lawyers how we service our clients how we treat our clients in my view there is little difference as to how we should approach it. Let's actually just talk about both I mean on a notion of firm culture why is this such a challenging concept. I don't know if the challenging concept for people to grasp but it seems like you look at most law firms cultures not what they're known for like why is that and what do you think could be done. Probably reasons I had how founded the firm with Mott Lewis just so 11 years ago is basically the firm I wanted didn't exist the firm we wanted didn't exist so let's create this firm and the bedrock one of the bedrocks behind the founding of our firm is we want to create a firm where people want to come to work people want to work at where we treat each other with the utmost respect and we treat our clients with the utmost respect and that's reasonable yeah exactly there's no rocket science but even how lawyers treat each other and you know often we we've all heard nightmare stories the partner holds onto an assignment and gives it you know six PM on a Friday wanting to buy my Monday or people shouting at each other and it's just unnecessary why can't we would just treat each other with kindness with respect even our terminology I'll never refer to my secretary or my paralegal everyone at my firm I always refer to my team member or my colleague we are wanting together we don't have cases where this is my case this is one of my colleagues cases every case is a case of the firm and it's things like that even down to terminology to create that culture to respect a lot of our lawyers have young children myself included again family first if anyone's going through something in the person's situation what can we do to help can we take the workload off from you you know it's your birthday is a bouquet of flowers is a gift certificate your favorite restaurant treat yourself we realize how hard you've been working just simple things like that to show that we value our team members I think whenever someone hears what you just described in this idea of really prioritizing culture and treating your team with respect I think there's always going to be some people to say well that's nice but I'd love for you to speak on what kind of impact has that made because you've come from both sides you've been in organizations where that culture was not a priority and you obviously at your firm it is a priority whatever impact has that made perhaps on the growth of the firm people's engagement the work that you're doing for your clients clients satisfaction that those sort of things absolutely so I think it's had a very positive impact so we're now about 20 lawyers every one of our lawyers is joined us from big law and so they clearly see something in our firm the other firms can offer and I'm proud of the fact that in 11 years no attorney has left our firm to go to another firm and that's the statistic I want to keep it's something I'm very proud of and for example we go on an annual retreat the whole firm and so in September we went to Scottsdale Arizona 25 years there's no boring agendas there's no city and conference rooms it was cocktails by the pool it was top golf there was having dinner together and it really felt like going on a long weekend with 25 friends and that is just so important to me the culture that's something that we want to cultivate yeah and I think one of the other things that you speak about in the book that perhaps a bit non-traditional and I'm glad you touched on this is that many firms that have kind of the billable hour model you have a different perspective on that right I'd love for you to speak about that and then also obviously with billable hours in many cases it this kind of decentivizes efficiency right so what's your perspective yes I'm certainly not the first person to talk about the billable hour but this is my perspective you can build a skyscraper for a fix fee you can build a nuclear submarine for a fix fee yet somehow we're incapable you know we write a letter or motion no sorry I couldn't possibly do that for a fix fee the trouble with billable hour is it always equates the time spent to value but there is a disconnect there sometimes an hour of my time I talk about the book I wrote one letter and it saved a multi-million dollar merger that had delivered a great till a value to the client other times I might be in the deposition and my opponents fumbling with exhibits and I'm just having to sit there at that moment in time I'm not delivering as much value to the client yet the billable hour it values it exactly the same another problem with the billable hour is it values inefficiency most firms have the billable hour target and the higher billers are generally rewarded with higher bonuses and to a certain extent that might be wanted but there could also be a lawyer who's incredibly inefficient and effectively is seen as a superstar in the firm because they're taking longer if you can take your car to the car wash you don't say where how many minutes is it gonna take or some emotional lawn where how many minutes they're gonna take yet we've all become so ingrained as lawyers that well know this is the only way that we can build now to be clear my firm does offer the billable hour many clients still want the billable hour that's completely fine and I'm on board with that but I don't even like the term alternative rearrangements because it assumes the billable hour is the norm is the correct model right so we also offer fixed fees we offer some of like a subscription model where per month how much it costs per month early resolution success fees obviously on the plaintive side contingency fees so one of the first things I ask any potential client is what are you looking for here are some options is a menu of options is certainty and legal spend one important do you want the billable hour to really put it in the clients control what do you want instead of just assuming that every client wants the bill below yeah I love that it is just meeting them where they are and to your point if you look at from the standpoint the value you're providing isn't necessarily based on the time you're spending working on something it's ultimately your years of experience knowing how to solve the problem I know you give this example in the book about it one point was an engineer or someone was was building someone they said well how much and it goes like a dollar for the screw and then nine thousand dollars for the labor right just getting this done right so knowing how to solve the problem or which screw to turn exactly I give you another example in the book about heart surgeon someone's trained 30 years to be this heart surgeon if you need heart surgery the surgery might take 30 minutes to save your life but what's the value of that 30 minutes you it literally saved your life yet no surgeon would think well here's my billable hour and here's half an hour why is lawyers do we think well now this is how we do it sorry we can't do any better better you mentioned Joseph Jamel junior in the book and if somebody doesn't doesn't know who this is if you could speak to that and then some of the lessons that you pull away from them yeah so he was certainly a lion of the Texas trial bar he's named in the fortune 500's one that 500 richest people in America so he's very successful but basically he lamented the lack of going to trial now and so many litigators they're basically paper pushes and they don't actually try cases I was very fortunate as a barrister in England before even moved to America I got to try about 100 cases to verdict so it's very fortunate to have that experience but I think so many lawyers now they we've sort of lost the art of the trial now in my view that's a shame and I also think it puts litigation in perspective because often we're fighting you know but a footnote in the discovery response and you realize that trial it doesn't matter and I think if more people went to trial we may spend less time paper pushing fighting over things that don't matter and really focusing on what the true issues are and ultimately that would save our clients money now having said that though I think that you also mentioned that there are a lot of challenges right now in the justice system because of how it just gets bogged down with frivolous suits I think how inexpensive it is to take a case to trial right now in California exactly what can be done about that is a problem absolutely justice is very expensive and it can cost hundreds of thousands or more to actually get to trial so I think number one this is not popular but we need more judges and why say it's not popular vanity project like a bridge well everyone supports that but if a politician stands out and says oh we need more judges it's not normally a vote winner but it's so important to the functioning of society and so I think number one we need to invest more money in the court system and number two I think judges need to when they see a frivolous suit be prepared to sanction more there are lawyers unfortunately who do bring his frivolous lawsuits in a hope for a quick settlement and I think if we call that out more whole people's feet to defy and more and say look we're not going to stand for this hopefully with discourage such a practice and along those lines I know you also talk about the lawyers I've just wanting to encourage more like ethics and civility just amongst the profession I know there's sometimes from a consumer standpoint they see someone on TV and they say I want a really aggressive adversarial trial lawyer because they associate that with a successful trial lawyer but you argue that oftentimes it's not the case exactly I've never had someone come to me and say I want a mild mannered litigator everyone always says I want an aggressive litigator and I always tell clients look I'll do aggressive tactics absolutely but that doesn't mean you have to bang your fist on the table and shout at your opponent and I think it was instilled at me the English training but the English bar civility how we treat each each other it's just instilled from the very first day as a barrister for example in England you have to refer to your opponent as my learned friend and that's an example you walk into court you have to bow to the judge you leave the courtroom you have to turn to the judge and bow when you're leaving the courtroom just things like that it might seem antiquated but I think it just leads to the civility among the profession also in England there aren't that many barristers so the chances are you're going to have the same opponents again and again so you don't want to get a reputation of being the jerk whereas in America my experience at least in California certainly many lawyers are wonderful and civil but there's other lawyers that see fit to shout to demean to insult and ultimately it's not helping their case and ultimately it's making it more expensive for their clients because you're engaged in unnecessary disputes a lot of the time. So I always tell my clients I think you're far better served when I get on very well with my opponent. Like I said we can both advocate fiercely for our clients but that doesn't mean we can't be cordial and professional towards each other. From what I've heard I think a large majority of your cases come by way of other lawyers. I mean they're referred about 95% of our cases come from our lawyers and often from my former opponents as well. And to me there's no greater compliment when my former opponent is sending me a case and so yet how we treat each other again it's good for business. So one of the things I've found interesting that you mentioned in the book and it's puzzling to me why this doesn't already exist because you look at other industries and other professions like the medical profession where you have almost different apprenticeships and fellowships and so on that doesn't really exist in the legal profession as someone's trying to determine what area of practice they'll be working in. What are some of the things you think need to change in terms of preparing people during law school and even after law school? Yeah so like I said you can pass the bar here and your lawyer the next day you can open your practice and you wouldn't want your doctor to do that's only the operating. There's the residency and again I'd talk a lot about my training in England but to be a barrister there was a one-year mandatory apprenticeship which called pupilage or effectively you live the life of a barrister for a year you go with them to court every day sit in on client meetings. Now I think we could benefit from that here's some type of mandatory apprenticeship it could be for example a year of the law firm in England the other branch of professions the list is you'll call the trainee solicitor for two years and you do four different practice groups for six months you get exposed to different practice areas now could it mean a short-term dip in profits here yes but ultimately if it improves retention if it makes for more satisfied lawyers ultimately I think it will be worth it for both the law firm and the clients. I also think we can teach this in law school as well about the business of law what it actually means to practice law is all very well learning about the constitution or property law but chances are that's not how you're going to spend day in day out arguing about the constitutionality of something right but you are going to have to hustle for business you are going to have to service clients and again that's not something that's taught in law school. I think it was interesting to me that in the book you mentioned that I think the most effective and laxative for a lawyer is their first time in front of a jury yeah the first time in court yeah I remember a barrister telling you that there's no great to laxative known to man then your first to court parents I think and I think that's true yeah but it also highlights the fact that that someone's only almost being thrown into the deep end right of how much preparation they have in advance of that right how much training do they have how much experience do they have just leading up to that because I mean I've heard from wars that have been very honest with me that they say the first time I was in court I had to message people other wars that I knew asking them which side do I sit on exactly no I remember my training in England I was a junior barrister and in England you do laws and undergrad degree so 21 you have your law degree you can be practicing law 22 23 at the time I looked a lot younger and so I looked like I was 12 20 cases yeah you've got to come across as confident in front of your clients I used to prosecute in an air of England called Essex and then tickle a town called Grey's which has been given the accolade the most hideous small town in the British Isles and when you're dealing with bar fights in Grey's you soon get that confidence in court yeah well what were some of the types of cases that you were assigned early on I mean because I said you had like a hundred trials to vote yeah so it would be the US equivalent misdemeanors so it would be in a typical day you might try like four cases and so it would be bar fight bar fight DUI bar fight I remember once someone punched a soccer referee and then another bar fight to end the day there you go a lot of bar fights but it prepared you exactly not lucrative I remember you know typically for a trial you get paid 40 pounds which is about $50 and often the peak train fare cost more than I'd actually go paid so I actually lost money some days but I would not have given up that experience for the world I'd say to any junior lawyer if you can get that trial experience ultimately will serve you well in your career and you argue that great attorneys are made and created not born what what is it is just the experience that they gain when they're doing multiple trials is it also what other aspects are happening within the firm because I know you focus a lot on developing your team absolutely so I think I was fortunate enough that firm in LA the lawyers I worked for they were great mentors before I even took my first deposition I'd sat in on about 40 depositions because they wanted me to get that experience they'd take me to trial with Michael to see them in trial and I think just exposing people just number one to the experience and number two in the example in my firm it's not just an upward culture so for example I will do a first draft or an email to a client or a letter then I'll send that to one of my colleagues and please edit this please comments on this the great thing about law is you're always learning so I don't profess to know everything I don't profess to get exactly right every time so I think just that culture of learning what can I do to support you my colleague what bars associations you interested in where do you like to speak at and what can we do to further your career how can we help you develop business and again it's that just support to our team members developing them as lawyers developing their career you know you talk a lot about culture again in the book how have you been able to sustain it right because I think sometimes people hear about culture and they look at it as a to-do list of saying well if I put this in place and then we get the benefits and then we do all these different things that are good for culture and then several months go by six months go by and they say it was great before why is it not still great yeah so I think it's always changing for example some of our lawyers are remote now so it was easy when everyone's in the office every day because you can always oh let's get lunch let's get coffee where some of our lawyers being remote it's harder so for example four times a year we bring the entire firm to San Francisco we get together in person I've already talked about the retreat the in-person retreats just check-ins like we have a mentorship program everyone of our young lawyers is assigned a partner to be their mentors pick up the phone how are you doing how often do we do that just it's not to talk about a case just checking in how are you doing a simple things like that and again never taking culture for granted yeah I know you also talk a lot about just customer service client experience all of this touch point is there's a example you actually give in the book where I think you were speaking with the client at one point you saw something on the truck board behind them that's right yeah so it's on a client's zoom and I saw in the chalkboard behind him 11 days to a carbon and so I started off oh what are you doing in carbon which hotel you staying at and then immediately I have one of my colleagues contact that hotel get a gift certificate to the spa and then waiting for him when you got there was the gift certificate so as simple touches like that I talk a lot in the book about gift giving and I know you've had a guest on your podcast Michael ruling giftology yes and he talks about the worst gift you can give is a bottle of wine and yet at Christmas time people go and also pilot his a bottle of wine why is it a terrible gift well the person might not drink you might send a white wine they prefer red or they might prefer gin or whiskey etc the other reason is terrible gift they drink it and they will never remember you again so we never send gifts at Christmas we're not scrooge is because you'll then lost in the rat race so we typically send out gifts twice a year in March and October straight away that puts us up the crowd we agonize over these gifts what can we give people something of value something of worth and we took the concept in giftology of knives we sent knives one year nothing less a strange gift it's something you use every single day it involves people's family members and whenever they use that knife I hope they think about firm so that's an example of just going above and beyond even the packaging we send gifts in we have custom boxes made we'd think about the thickness of tissue paper we do notes handwritten by the partners on the firm just simple touches like that and these days we're not competing with the law firm down the street we're competing with the Amazon's the zappos the mandarin orientals of the world so I want every touch of my firm to be a concierge white glove service and people well you're a lawyer why do you think about that we are in the service industry that's what we do yes a few years ago I went to a conference in Las Vegas is the largest sales conference in the world 10,000 people I did not meet a single lawyer there well luckily that's all we're doing we're selling our time we're selling our service so any lawyer that thinks oh that's beneath them I know I don't do sales then I think they're just gonna get left behind yeah I agree and and if you could speak to in the book you outlined kind of your client journey perhaps some of the different aspects that make the firm unique of what you do that's more customer centric at each point absolutely so from the very first touch of our firm say someone emails me I responded that right away I might not be able to call them right away but I acknowledge them I tell them when I'll be in contact in the first intake call or meeting I was as what's an ideal outcome for you what are you looking for in this process I think as lawyers too many of us often assume we know what the clients want some people it's I just want to get rid of this as quickly as possible other people money's no object I did nothing wrong I want to fight this till the very end so I never assume what the client wants and then every step along the way I'll thank them I typically do a handwritten note for engaging our firm no one gets notes anymore everyone just sends an email so straight away it's I appreciate the trust the confidence you placed in our firm and then along the way I was want to manage my clients expectations so they know what to expect what's going to happen next what the budget is for the next phase and then at the end often I'll have a lunch or dinner with the client just to again to show that I appreciate the business that they gave to our firm and again just as we get many of our cases mother lawyers we also get many cases from former clients and again it's always very satisfying when a former client refers cases to us. And I know you, Michael, talk about people being a member of your cult. And I know your cults give a bad rap and so certainly they deserve it. But as you've pointed out in the past, apples are cult. You know, why else would you camp out on the sidewalk overnight? Nike is a cult. And ultimately is it's advocates for your firm. That's what we want to develop for our firm, just basically members of our cult advocating for our firm. - Yeah. - I mean, you can't spell culture without CUL2. - Exactly. - So even along those lines, if somebody's listening and they're hearing about the lot of the things that you're doing, the nice touch points, the client gifts, the thoughtfulness and so on, I mean, it is all great. I think from a client experience standpoint, obviously it makes somebody feel good, makes them feel valued, it's important. But then why isn't everybody doing it, right? Is it just because they either don't believe or the outcomes that come as a result of it, they don't want to spend the money or they just have a very kind of short term focus. - Yeah, I think fortunate as lawyers, there's a very low bar. So I think if you do just some of these steps, you immediately stand out on the ground. And I think just, it hasn't been taught to them, it hasn't been part of their developing as a lawyer. And so even some of the biggest law firms in the world, every December, I get an e-card, literally an email. The last thing I want in life is another email. These are often multi-billion dollar organizations. And this is the best marketing you can come up with, an e-card, so things like that, if these multi-billion dollar organizations are doing it, then they're just not saying it, well, why should I do it? - Yeah. - And I think too many people, they just, well, this is how every other firm does it, so this is how it must be done. And what I took a lot in the book is, when no, step back just because it's been done like this before, it doesn't mean it's the best way for it. - Yeah, and so much of this is interesting, as we've been speaking about this, so much of it is the difference between a long term focus and a short term focus in the sense that if you believe that you're going to still be around, and your practice is gonna be around, I'll say 10 years from today, what are the types of actions and decisions that you need to make today to set yourself up for even greater success 10 years from now? And I find that most firms don't do that, and it's interesting, I think you mentioned even on the topic of like, big mall early in the book that most of these associates are working for two to three dead partners, right? But they're continuing to extend their legacy. - Exactly. - They've been long gone, the mission, the vision, all that has been lost in a lot of these larger firms, but then if you even look at it, let's say a smaller firm, a solar law firm, it's even then so much of the focuses this month or this week rather than, what about this time next year? - Exactly, no, I have a section of my book and it's headed why boutique is best. I'm obviously biased because we have a litigation boutique, but I think it really is the best of both worlds. I remember someone at a big law firm, he was a partner and he said, "Oh, I went to the annual partner meeting and I thought it strange, I was shaking hands with people introducing themselves, I am your partner." And the idea that I'm shaking hands, that to me isn't a true partnership, and I am so fortunate at my firm, like literally my partners and I, we would do anything for each other. And it really does feel like that we are a true partnership. And I think clients see this, that we have each other's back, we will absolutely go to the bat for our clients, but also I think they can see that we genuinely enjoy what we do. And if the people who are going to read the book or listen to the audio book, they could take away one thing, what do you hope that is? It's hard to distill it to one thing, but I think how, just really focus on how we treat each other as lawyers, how we treat clients, how we service our clients. Take a step back and, you know, can I do better here? Even am I treating my colleagues the way I would want to be treated? It's a stressful job. It's long hours stressful situations. And let's not make it worse by treating each other like jerks, please look. - Right, yeah. So obviously you've grown, the practice has been growing tremendously and it's continued to scale and expand. You've had several phenomenal multi-million dollar of products, and I'm just curious about, how do you define success? - Yeah, it's hard to distill it to one sentence, but I think practicing law at the highest level, I would go ahead to head with any law firm in the country. And so I would take on litigation of any size. So to me, that success and if clients can see that, we're fortunate we represent some of the largest companies in the world, they can pick any law firm. And I think the fact that they pick our firm, that makes me very proud of my team, what we've developed. - Yeah. - And I don't know if you can name some of them, but that to me is just always so incredible in the sense that they can pick anyone and these are multi-billion, sometimes multi-trillion dollar companies that choose to work with your firms. So if someone's listening thinking, I don't stand a chance, how could I possibly compete for the same type of clients or cases that these other massive law firms are gaining, I would consider you perhaps taking a patient from your playbook. - Yeah, so when Martin Lewis and I, when we opened the firm, we met each other at Latham and Watkins, it's the largest firm in California. Like I said, I've had tremendous experience at Latham. We opened with no clients. And so literally we opened for business, we shared an office. It was meant that we couldn't even schedule phone calls at the same time because we were in this little room about the distance you and I are from each other. And so we opened with no clients. And fortunately we had our first client within an hour and fortunately it's grown since then. And here we are, 11 years later, we've got 20 lawyers, world class attorneys from some of the largest firms in the world. Our client roster is basically a whos who has Silicon Valley as well as individuals as well. So we just did it by hard work and dedication. So absolutely, we did it. Anyone can do it. First client within an hour. First time now, the phone. - How did this come to be? - I don't know that. And also I think people wanted, before I set up the firm, no one's gunning for Big Law. And again, I'm not here to trash Big Law. I had a great time there. But no one's saying gee, I hope Kirkland Ellis makes it this year. I hope Sullivan and Cromwell make it. I think deep down a lot of people have respect for people that go out on their own to build something. And I've had so many people saying, I wish I did what you guys did. It's too late now. I'd now got the kids tuition, got the big mortgage, but I just wish I'd had the guts to do it. And so people want you to succeed. Fortunately, we've had tremendous support along the way. So as we come to a close, this being the game changing attorney podcast, Paul, what does being a game changing mean to you? I think to me, it means not accepting the status quo. Not going down this path because that's how it's always been done. That's how everyone else is doing it. And so I think forging your own path forwards, taking risks, and have fun doing it. I want to give a huge thank you to Paul Deweyland for taking the time to speak with us today. I don't want to thank you, yes you, for listening to this podcast and for your commitment to growing as a leader. (upbeat music) If you found this episode valuable, here are three free ways that I can help you grow your law firm. Number one, download the first chapter of my book, absolutely free at gamechangingaternity.com. Number two, you can shoot me a text at 404-531-7691, and I'll answer any question that you've got for me. And finally, number three, if you can leave this podcast a five star review, it'll help us gain access to more influential thought leaders and bring their lessons learned here to you. For more information on our interview with Paul Deweyland, see the show notes for this episode in your podcast app or visit gamechangingaternity.com. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)