Paul Greengrass: Turning Andrew Garfield Into a Medieval Rebel

Wherever you look, I think across our country, the US, you know, Europe, you know, across the world, there's this deep sense of rage against the elites, if you want to call them that. People feeling left behind, people feeling that they've not got a fair shake out of the changes, that they've been made to carry too much of the burden. You know, whatever it is, it's a feeling that it's a rigged game. These are all tropes and truths that people really, really feel deeply. And I think that obviously our politicians, and for those of us who don't maybe feel so left behind, find it hard to understand how strongly that feeling is. I think it's really important that we understand how strongly that feeling is, and I think it's important that we understand how strongly that feeling is. Home of the Save. Join for just $20 at bjs.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months. Open soon. Limited time offer, new members only. BJ's, home of the Save. Hello, listeners. You're listening to This Is History in Conversation. And it's my very great pleasure to be in conversation with one of the great film directors of our time, Paul Greengrass. And everyone will know Paul from his brilliant work, United 93, some of the Bourne films, The Green Zone and many, many more. But this week, in fact, Paul's latest film, The Uprising, comes out, which is all about a favourite topic on this podcast, the peasants' revolt of 1381. So hello, Paul. Welcome to the podcast. Well, that's very kind. It's lovely to be here with you, Dan. And well, we share this great passion, don't we? The Peasants' Revolt. Well, I wonder if we can start there because I'm trying to cast my mind back maybe three or four years when we first talked about the Peasants' Revolt because you had started work on a script about this event. And as I recall then, although do correct me, you had a few different historical moments in mind. And I just want to talk to you about what drew you to this one in particular? The sort of antecedents of this particular film were just before lockdown. I spent quite a bit of time thinking about doing a sort of English rebel film. That was what I wanted to do. And it ended up being one of two, really. I explored doing a film about the resistance to the Norman invasion. So 106789 or the Peasants' Revolt. I mean, that was really it. And there were some similarities of theme and also what they say about England specifically, but our islands today. And cinematically, that's obviously rich territory. You know, rebel movements are always interesting. It was informed a bit about being in Suffolk and coming, as I do, from Gravesend, which is, you know, one of the places where, as you know, the Peasants' Revolt sprung up, you know, Gravesend, Maidstone, across the water in the coastal areas of Essex, the Essex Marshes, Suffolk, you know, those were the prime territories. That's where my forebears come from. So it all felt weirdly personal, you know. I started with the idea of a fictional character, you know, Plowman, I call him. He's a farmer, basically. He's a peasant farmer in a place a bit like Fobbing. I mean, we never say it's Fobbing, but it's obviously close to Brentwood because Brentwood is depicted. And I just tried to, you know, in a way that a lot of writers do, you try and create a fictional character and put him in the backdrop of the real events and the real world and what would it have felt like to be a farmer mixed up in those earth-shaking events. What was interesting was that when I wrote it, I then tried to get it made and I couldn't, You know, I could get some money, but I couldn't get enough money to do it properly because obviously it's quite an ambitious film cinematically, you know, because it's got a cast of thousands and, you know, you've got tumultuous events and the march on London and the invasion of London and the trashing of London and so on and so forth and soldiers and kings and queens and, you know, period. It's all, you know, expensive to mount. And I couldn't get enough money. Weirdly, what changed, I think, was January the 6th, because in many ways, for all that, you know, we were appalled at what happened on January the 6th, in many ways, there are a lot of similarities, you know. it was the sort of invasion of the capital by you know by by people who feel deeply enraged at what the elites are doing whatever we think about that politically and you know let's set that to one side that that and that sort of changed the equation i think a bit because it made it weirdly the what i'd written feel much more relevant and uh and then that got us over the line and then we made it one thing that's interesting there is that the i suppose some people will look at a film about the peasant revolt and automatically think this was spurred by january 6th january the 6th you know the the uh attack of a capital in the united states but so it's interesting to to know that the idea preceded that so i wonder if you could just say a little bit about what draws you to a historical moment for a movie well first of all it's important say it's a film it's a movie it's if people are going to do the honor of giving you two hours of their time you need to give the give them an experience that will feel rewarding whatever that means you know entertaining thought provoking inspiring shocking you know whatever you know the mixture of all those things um what you can't do is bore them to death or give them a lecture you know in in my view yeah um films i think that are set in the past really should be about today and the reason to go back to the past is to say in a way things you can explore distant history and say we'll see how little has changed you know it makes you see issues in a way more clearly than you would if you depicted those same events today because in a way when you look at the distant past the sort of your politics gets checked at the cinema door and you experience it as a story you know what i mean yeah so it's a movie not a history lesson and you know it's it's a film that's a piece of fiction but it's also meant to be make you think about today because i think a lot of these issues this intense rage i nearly called it the rage actually at one point it was called the rage Because wherever you look, I think across our country, the US, you know, Europe, you know, across the world, there's this deep sense of rage against the elites, if you want to call them that. Well, just for any listeners who want a very quick recap on The Peasants Revolve, we're sitting in the summer of 1381 in the movie. There's been the Black Death has happened. killed 40 to 50% of the population. population. The government's policies in response to the Black Death have been to move the tax burden down to the ordinary people. That's been heavily enforced. There's a real sense that there's a moving away of the ordinary people. It sounds familiar, doesn't it? It does sound familiar when we lay it all out. And of course, untouching the elites at the top, of course. Absolutely. It's a feeling that the whole system is being rigged towards the people who are already losing. Rigged against. Rigged against, yeah. I wanted to stick with the history just momentarily. When you started making, or when you started writing the movie in lockdown, what's your research process, or rather, what are you looking for in the research as you take the history and try to move towards making a film? Well, what was interesting, of course, is that the Peasants' Revolt was, on the one hand, a sort of touchstone for the birth of progressive politics in the UK. You know, if you're a member of the Labour Party, as I've always been in my life, you sort of look back to it as one of its foundational stories, you know, rightly or wrongly. But of course, it's much more complex than that. And I remember reading a piece you wrote, actually, on the BBC website, where it pointed out the absolute uncanny, you know, parallels between those events and what was going on today. So often you feel with a film that you're not looking at it in a way as a piece of historical research. You're looking at, as ever, you're looking at feelings. The feeling out there, what is this feeling, you know, this feeling of rage and alias? How can I, how can I sort of find a story that distills and encapsulates that? And, you know, somehow it sort of led to knowing, ah, and then there's a moment where it crystallizes, you go, I got it, a farmer. Okay, imagine if I was that farmer, and how would I feel? And when they, how could I, how could I get, how can I weave that character? And then it becomes a bit more technical. How can I make him move? Because of course, as far as we can tell, it started in fobbing, didn't it? With resistance to tax collections. And of course, a lot of the accounts are, as you say yourself in your book, are the accounts of those who were hostile to the rebels, hostile to the rebellion. So you have to take that into account. But it seems pretty clear that there were, in various places, including on the Essex marshes, in those villages in the Massage. very profound and violent resistance to tax collections. And during those tax collections, there were these accounts of young women. You know, there was obviously a lot of tax evasion when they started to collect taxes from, as it were, the common people. You know, as you say, when the tax burden was, was pushed down towards ordinary folk, you know, you could imagine the scene. It would be incendiary. And then it gets violent. And before you know it, these communities are in open uproar. And you've got bands of people essentially saying, well, what are you going to do about it? Because we're not going to pay. And that was the beginning of it. And it very quickly spread. For that, I think we have to look at, you know, what we used to call at school, hedgerow priests, you know, the Catholic Church, the resistance. The net, the capillaries of, of, of exchange and, and resistance that were fermented by the Catholic Church, by, by, by essentially ordinary priests who could see what was happening to their parishioners and, and could see that the church was corrupt and, and were offering resistance. And so before you know it, it had spread similar rebellions on the other side of the Thames, Gravesend, Maidstone, principally Maidstone, further south towards Canterbury. Yeah. But I think it's pretty clear that on the Kent side of the rebellion, it was heavily influenced by, by military veterans, people who'd served the king in France and had come back and found, you know, that the lands weren't, you know, the lords were not offering protection. France was able to invade and raid the coast. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so there were other issues. But before you know it, you had these essentially rebel armies. Marching on London. Marching on London from various sides. 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That's why she shops at BJ's Wholesale Club, saving up to 25% off grocery store prices. Beef jerky, microwave meals, laundry pods, even they can't screw up. Have you met my kids? And with BJ's gas, she gets there. They call me the road warrior. This is your home, road warrior mom. Home of the save. Join for just $20 at BJ's.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months. Open soon. Limited time offer. New members only. BJ's. Home of the save. One of the key decisions you make in any movie is casting a movie. And I wonder when you're making a historical piece like this. Andrew Garfield plays Plowman in the movie. Cosmo Jarvis or Tyler. I wonder what your. What are you looking for in actors, particularly when you come to a historical piece? Do you want somebody who's going to immerse themselves in the period? Do you want, does that even matter or is it individual to each actor? I mean, in Andrew's case, you need someone of sufficient stature to, you know, to help you get the film made for sure. And he has a, you know, tremendous following. Obviously Andrew, he's a wonderful actor and you need someone accessible, I would say, you know, emotionally accessible. Which he is. But I, the model in my mind was to have a great, great cast of English actors, you know, so Andrew and Cosmo Jarvis, obviously Jamie Bell, Tom Holland, you know, Stephen Delane, Catherine Waterston, you know, it was a, and we were Thomas and Mackenzie, she's actually from New Zealand, but we all absorbed the medieval world. But in the end, you're saying to them, look, don't, don't get too hung up on what, you can't, you can't, we, you know, if you get too fussed with the particular haircut, slow to take that as an issue, it's very hard. I mean, you know, does it matter? Well, that's, that's the key question, isn't it? And I suppose that, I mean. You need enough that your audience will accept that they're in a, a, a. A world of the distant past. But if you spend your precious time, and when you make a film, you only have a very limited amount of time and a very limited amount of money to make your film. And this was a very ambitious film. And you have to let certain things go and concentrate on the emotional stories of the actors, the broad thrust of the story. And you have to let certain things go and concentrate on the spectacle and hope that the overall will deliver what you're looking for. I remember, I mean, as, as you were making this movie, we had many, many conversations, all of which circled around this point, which is to say, you know, we'd, we'd get on the phone or we'd be looking at the script before production, get on the phone in production and say, okay, we have a decision to make today about how many people are in this, this particular scene, what particular sword is in this scene. And, you know, there, there is a certain. And I suppose some people go and watch movies and say, well, the hilt of that sword is, is wrong in wrong, quote unquote, is, is not historically accurate. It's five years out or whatever. And I suppose it would be interesting for anyone who comes into this. Or even not. Or even not. Not right at all. I always try and, and say, well, you know, in our conversations, are we serving the film first, the story first? And is this going to jar, you know, obviously. It would be strange if we had a Watt Tyler turning up to lead the, the revolt driving a, um, a Porsche 911. Yeah. Right. Exactly. But we need to. need to live within this world and i wonder if you can just say a few words from the perspective of somebody who's made a lot of movies about how what goes through your head as you make those decisions and and what role the history the facts are playing within the whole broad spectrum of making a movie films have to tell the truth uh just like everything has to otherwise it's just a you know a conspiracy theory or a preposterous blancmange you know let's call it let's say those are the preposterous blancmange those are the two poles do you know i mean yeah we've all seen films and i'm sure books and i'm sure probably history books that that are in those two camps yeah i like to think that i haven't made films that sit strongly in either of those places places i want to be somewhere in the middle but you can't get it all right it's it's impossible now there are certain sorts of films let's take united 93 the mission and the creative success if you can call it that of the film lies in being as authentic as you possibly can be right yeah the reason i made that film was because i felt very strongly that 9-11 had been uh meanings were being given to it meanings were being given to it as inevitably happens in these enormous you know epoc making events i just felt very strongly that cinema had to play its part and that the beginning was to tell that i wanted to tell that particular story because it seemed to me that those for there were only 44 people on that airplane those 44 people were the first people to inhabit the post 9-11 age which was the age that we've all lived through since and faced the choices that were going to be our choices the reason was because that flight was slightly delayed and by the time it took off and got in the air and the hijack took place everybody on the airplane came to know what had happened with the other airplane so they knew what had happened they knew what the stakes were and therefore you read what happened and because the cast as it were was very small 44 people yeah and and what was known was very specific you could know certain amount from what you knew and you could extrapolate certain amounts of truths from what had happened in the other airplanes but then there was this area that you couldn't know but you could extrapolate certain amounts of truth from what had happened in the other airplanes but you could deduce certain things and so that required us to buy an airplane that was identical to hire professional aviators professional air crew you know all sorts of ways that you could try and kind of explore with a degree of rigor to imaginatively engage in what might have happened with the view to exploring the dilemmas of the post 9-11 age now i'm using that as an example of where the burden and responsibility of the post 9-11 age is and i'm using that as an example of where the burden and responsibility is too heavy to be as scrupulous you can be accepting that it's a film and it's you're exploring something that can't be knowable but you can shine torch down a tunnel if i can use that where the contours of the tunnel can be made clear and then you're asking your actors whose artistry and insights are all the imaginative depiction of what feels truthful that's why they're there they can divine things that's what actors do they make what is make believe believable yeah and uh and if it's in service of a true mission as opposed to a conspiracy or a blancmange yeah then it it has power and and validity and and merit i think the that film has stood the test of time okay now you come to this uprising it's a world away first of all it's in a period you know it's it's 800 years away or whatever it is it's many many centuries away in a dim land that is effectively impossible to recreate yes the scale of it is impossible to recreate so and also it is a fiction you know it's a fictional character my plowman never existed although i'm sure that there were people like him uh for sure and then you have to make all sorts of decisions about what's a legitimate fictionalization if you want to call it that and that's what it is where are the degrees what are the parameters so let me give you two two examples that i've already talked about the hair yeah you're talking about some hundreds of people that you've got you're never going to get the same hundreds every day you know it's just a reality of filmmaking you're going to have a different set of extras every day coming into some of them will be the same but some of them are going to be or some of them can't turn up because they've got to go to work it's like and then also you're filming very limited hours uh you know we were shooting in october you know it wasn't june so you couldn't guarantee the weather you know the weather's another example you can't who knows whether it was sunny on those events we'll never know we certainly know it was stormy and rainy in the in the preceding period because that was a part of it wasn't it but practicality means you'll never get everybody to agree to cut their hair it's just too i mean you know to get someone to cut their hair you've got to pay them and you can't pay hundreds of people every day to cut there and then there isn't time to do it so you end up going it doesn't matter it doesn't matter really you know as long as the central characters have the right hair yeah that's what counts because they're at the center of frame you know so that's what i would call the the wallpaper and and and buttons and brooches sort of aspect of filmmaking you can't get too hung up you know as long as it broadly speaking looks like it conforms with sumptuary laws so that you know the people the rebels are in the muted colors that clearly they were and the and the you know the the oligarchs as i call them the you know the court figures have the colored but even then i i muted that somewhat because i think that's what it's supposed to look like i think that's what it's supposed to look like suspect and much more voluptuous in real life than than i depict it but it doesn't matter in my view you get it so that's one set of parameters you've got to where you can't possibly be accurate and true to every respect then you come to the physical locations well how do you move from Brentwood to Maidstone to London medieval London and out the other side with a cast of thousands upon thousands when none of these places exist I mean they don't exist as they existed in those days you know well I would say we've actually done a pretty good job of that I think our depict where you've seen the film I think our depiction thanks to the wonders of technology of is pretty good i would say not perfect of course but pretty good i think you get a really good sense of the crowded streets and the the topography of the city and all the rest of it and likewise the crowds i think we've done a pretty good job of of depicting the psychology of crowds which is a very important part of any rebellion or revolution how crowds move how crowds are controlled or not controlled what happens when crowds get going is part of the story of the peasants revolt as it is the story of any revolution as it was indeed of january the 6th you know the interplay between bystanders common causes and inner core rebels with an agenda complex complex and historians of do a much better job but i think we've done a pretty good job of of showing how these crowds gather what that must have felt like the intense religiosity of it i think was a very important thing the fact that it intersected with corpus christi festival which was going to be a festival where where you know a great religious festival to do with redemption which i think was a very important fact people thought they were coming to see a miracle and then what they got instead was uh was was london thrown into chaos with the first popular um rebellion this country's scene so our plowman moves from the essex marshes to maidstone which i think is not an impossible journey i think people did make that journey to join you know and vice versa i think and then because i wanted to take that journey from maidstone to london and i wanted him to engage with tyler and boar tyler and john boar who's obviously the other great lead and imaginatively depict those two leaders and then the the entry of London the the way the rebellion they lost control or it's initially very disciplined beginnings very targeted you know attacks on specific buildings specific centers of power then the interplay between the rebellion and the King what that meant but in the end that rebellion was defeated of course it was defeated they was in some way we can discuss it in more detail tricked and persuaded to go and then were harried and in the end I mean the final battles were in places like closer to to Brentwood there was a big battle I brought that closer to because you just need to get a full stop on the event and I don't think that matters the truth is the rebellion was betrayed and they were tricked and they were all hounded harried harried and killed you know many of them and there was a sort of quasi reign of terror for some weeks and months before it settled down and and and then what was left was the idea of of it and and I here I think we're into the abstraction cinematic abstraction but also cultural history real history whatever it was that happened in those three or four days and in the crushing of it afterwards the idea the ideas of of the common man if you can call him the common person coming center stage and taking their place in history that's really the first moment and it never really goes away I think Shaq here what's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100% online and get it delivered to your door let me tell you your car is here mr. 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Shaq not that I would you never do no I never do so buy your car today on Carvana delivery fees may apply see our seven day return policy at Carvana.com well I suppose what we're talking about here is that is is that eternal question of the the the space that lies between facts and truth and and what that means is is in in many ways the the core of historical filmmaking whether you use it to service conspiracy on the one hand yeah or blemish or allow it just to be blemish on the other that duality between the conspiracy in the blemish is one that I think I will definitely take away Paul I could talk to you about these topics for hours upon hours we are going to close this episode here but listeners can come back on this is history plus to hear a little more of Paul and I in conversation when we talk about Paul's favorite historical films so thanks everyone for listening please catch the uprising in cinemas from this Friday September the 11th and for my royal favorites and this history plus subscribers stick around for a very special bonus episode with Paul otherwise I will see you all for a preview of this is history's brand new season the Tudors next week you know medieval historians are often less inclined to accept what can't be known the walk yes absolutely true it's all pretty much let's face it a bit biddable somewhat somewhat I don't want to be Philistine about it fall never arrives all at once first the air then the light and slowly the things you love begin to find each other a jacket meets a dress a hoodie slips beneath a blazer an old cap finds a new scarf because you don't simply step into the season you create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall find fall your way at Ross