Patent Leather Boots and Purpose with Keke Palmer

We also had to think about the cost of some of these clothes. I mean, be in first lady. It's, it's, expect, Barack would look at the clothing building, you like, girl? [LAUGHTER] It's like, dude. It's not the Leo. I'm like, dude, just, just stand down. Just stand down, dude. [MUSIC PLAYING] Hello, everybody. Wow. What an honor it is to be here with you. Mrs. Obama, every time I get to spend time with you, I'm so just thrilled. I love you, Kiki. I love you, that. Thank you for being here, babe. And obviously, we're so happy to be here with you guys at SS Fest in New Orleans. You're the Red House. You all are live and looking good. I was just going to say that. I mean, we are here to talk about the look, your incredible book, and everything that it means to establish a look, right? We are wearing fashion. I see beautiful women. And men, I see the fellas are out there doing their thing. So I want to give my hats off to you guys for bringing that fabulousity tonight for us. I'm so excited. I think I also have to tell them, even though I know it's still under wraps a little bit with higher ground. Obviously, your company, but we're working on a movie, y'all. This is going to be good. I'm so excited starting my stay. Kiki, and higher ground, it's amazing. I'm so excited, grateful that you're going to be a part of that project, babe. Yes, I don't want to tell you guys too much, but it involves basketball and Aubrey Plasas. So you can imagine some comedy. So keep a lookout for that. We'll keep you guys posted. Well, you know, in talking about the look, talking about black women, black people, culture, setting trends, what was so important about it for you to create this book to talk about? How to own what we put out into the world? Oh, as we all know, how we show up in the world says a whole lot about sometimes how we're treated, what kind of respect we have. And during my eight years as first lady, I made it a point not to talk about fashion, because I didn't want my eight years to be just about the shoes I wore or the dress I was in. I wanted people to see who I was and what I was doing. And as a woman, a lot of times we are talked about how we look first before what we say. Absolutely. And so, but fashion was a big part of what I did. I mean, I made it a point to think really strategically about how I showed up. So the look is now my opportunity to share that journey, because I do love fashion. And I did make a point of thinking through strategically how I needed to show up in the world as the first black first lady. Yes. And so the look takes you on that journey. I love that because the look is not only being defined by what you'd look like on the outside, but the agency you have with how you show up and how much that is allowed to define who you are. So many different levels to that. I want to, as we go down that journey of the look with you, I want to start at the top. Take me back to the south side of Chicago. When we think about your personal style back then, when you were Michelle Robinson, what was your look? How would you get up and get dressed? What did you think about fashion at that time? Girl, when I was growing up, my style was broke. OK. It was just broke working girl. My style was a lot of no, right? Because Mary and Robinson, my mother, she pinched a penny. So she wasn't really into fashion. So I was one of those young girls who was always, I wish if I had the money, if I really had full control over my own look, I could dream about what I wanted to wear. But we didn't grow up being able to afford much of anything. We were shopping at Sears and Robux. Granamals, what was on sale? I remember the Sears Tower growing up. My god, I was so sick of Sears growing up. But I grew up on the south side with a ton of fashion. I mean, who are some of your inspirations? They were all the girls in the neighborhood. You know, I mean, I was always looking up to that girl just older than me, the little cutie that be sitting on the sidelines of my brother's basketball game. Well, yes, yes. I was like 10 years old, and she was 13 or 14 coming in with her Gloria Vanderbilt jeans and her chains laid. You know, I knew what fashion and style was. But when I was young, we just couldn't afford it. I used to always want to wear a pair of white patent leather go-go boots. Come on, go-go boots. Because I was watching, like, get Christy Love, Foxy Brown. I mean, those fine black women and those little mini skirts and those boots that just zipped up-- I mean, speaking of the look, I think that also feels like power. When I think about the kind of the boots, I think about an afro. I think about a leather jacket with a little peplum to it. Oh, my god. That makes me think about power. Indeed. Maybe that's what I was thinking. I was channeling some get Christy Love. I was going to shoot somebody up. But Marianne Robinson wasn't having that. She was like, it wasn't practical to wear patent leather boots when there was 10 inches of snow. So I was stuck with my little rubber boots. Yeah, and it's interesting when we see what is represented on television or in music, what's actually possible for us in our day-to-day lack, especially when we're thinking about people that are minority. People might think, oh, the White House is your first experience dealing with big institutions. But obviously, it's not. You were in college at Princeton and Harvard, being in predominantly white spaces was something that you were very well at navigating. But when you think about those early years of yourself in college, what role did fashion or your look play then, when you first entered those spaces? You know, I was probably more focused on the academics back then. I mean, I went to college broke. We were on financial aid. I was on work study. I had the clothes that I had. I came with my Levi's and my polo shirts and my Levi jeans jacket. I just didn't have the time or the money to focus too much on what I look like. And I think that's true for a lot of college kids. I mean, you're away from home for the first time. You're trying to figure out where to get your hair done in a white space. I mean, that was a big deal going to a white school in a white neighborhood. It was like, where am I getting my hair done? I was more focused on that than I was what I was getting-- what I was wearing. But my focus in college was trying to make sure I showed up and got those grades. So there were classmates of mine who came for more affluence, who came with the preppy look. And they had all the clothes. And some of these kids were black. But most of the black kids at Princeton, when I was going, we were all just trying to get through. We weren't really focused. We didn't have time to focus on our look. I really, really relate to this, especially when I think about me in the early years coming up in the industry, where you think that-- I mean, obviously, I had glam and fashion, all that thing was thought of. But I didn't always have a lot of money to have the best styling and to get the best clothes. So my way of surviving or being able to thrive in those spaces was just being really good at the job. It was just like, I'm going to show up. I'm going to do so very good. And you're not going to think about if I have on Louis Vuitton and I, even if I have on an off thing or whatever it is. At what point did you start being able to even open yourself up to thinking about how fashion could support you on your journey to success? You know, it really wasn't until the-- I started campaigning for Barack in the presidential race. Because the truth is that while I was a professional, went to law school, worked at a big firm. I did a lot of jobs. Again, once again, my focus was on the work. My focus was on the career. And I always thought the outfit-- I wore what I needed to wear to get the job done. So when I was a corporate attorney back in the '90s, when I was practicing, we had those ugly women suits-- these '90s suits with a big shoulder pads. Sure. I was just going to wear the uniform that I needed to get the job done. And so when I first went out on the campaign trail in Iowa, fashion became an important part of something I had to think about because I had to be organized. I mean, if you think about what I was doing when I had two little kids, I was still working a full-time job. with the Vice President of Community Affairs. at the University of Chicago hospitals. I would campaign three days a week. I would leave Chicago at five in the morning because I wanted to make sure I'd see the kids I'd get on the first flight out of Chicago into Iowa. I'd land in Iowa campaign all day and that would meant I might do five rallies, three fun razors and I'd do as much as I could to get to the last flight out of Iowa to get back to Chicago in time for dinner with the girls. - So I was usually just wearing one outfit. - It was giving Steve jobs. - It was one of those, it had to be like it's a sweater, it's a vest, it's a fundraiser, now I'm at a fairer and you know it had to be versatile for the whole day. But then I realized at this pace, I didn't have time to think about clothes and that was the first time I met a designer, this woman Maria Pinto, I was introduced to her, she was a young designer in Chicago and that was the first time I'd met somebody who owned their own fashion line and they made clothes and I really went to her because it was convenient. I could do one stop shopping, I could go to her, she had my measurements, this is when I was wearing those sheath dresses that were silk sleeveless, she made those, those are Maria Pinto designs and I could go to her, get fit it, have a set of clothes that I didn't have to think about. So Kiki, when I was fashion was something that I was trying not to think about. I had to be organized enough and have enough resources so that I could put on clothes, not have to think about it, know that I look good and look presentable because this is when people were starting to write about me, right? That makes me curious of when you understood the power of and it maybe it didn't even come up first positively. Maybe it was the power of seeing how people were writing up about you because of what you were. Do you remember a moment in time? Oh, I remember the first big speech I gave in Iowa. It was packed. I mean, I was pulling more crowds than most of Barack's opponents. OK, not like this. But it was interesting, the more popular I became, the more of a threat I became. It was interesting. That's when the article started coming out. I had been campaigning for more than a year. And then it was, this is what I understood. This is politics. Oh, they're coming after me because I'm useful. And they're trying to beat my husband so they're trying to slow me down, right? And some of those first articles, they would always start. She was wearing a purple sheath and she had on this pair of shoes. It wouldn't matter what I said, Kiki. The article would start with what I had on. Wow. And I realized, oh, this is how they do women in politics. This is how we treat women in public life. We diminish them to just what they look like. And not what I'm saying now. I'm given impassionate speeches. I think people know now that I can give a speech, OK? That didn't just start happening. I was always really good on the campaign trail. I was always a powerful order. And I was good at it because my topic was good. It was about my husband. So I could-- I'll tell you something good about that man. He's like, give me a mic. Come on, give me a mic. Give me a mic. Let me tell you something. At that moment, right? Because there's two things that's happening. It's we're in the campaign. I have to be strategic for good reason, right? I have to understand what I'm going up against. But then I also have to still be mean, right? I imagine there's a part of you that was like, I want to do what needs to be done. But I still want to be true to me. How did you waver the balance of how to create the look around your agency and what your husband and you all needed for what you ended up becoming in the presidency? Well, holding on to who I was was never hard for me. I mean, that was-- I think a lot of that had to do with age. I mean, we weren't coming into this-- while we were young to be president and first lady, we were in our-- let me get the math, right? We were in our 40s, our mid 40s. But you all were probably so much. Exactly. We were fully-- Brock and I were fully formed people. I had had five, six careers. I was the mother of two. I had ran organizations. I'd worked in almost every sector. I'd been a corporate attorney. I was an assistant to the mayor. I was the vice president of community affairs, y'all. I ran stuff. I had a job. I did some stuff, right? And I had ups and downs, right? I had pitfalls. And I had to block a scene. Because a lot of people think that obviously working in the White House being under that institution, it's a huge deal. It's a huge job as a public servant. But to understand all the things you did to get you there, you were quite primed and ready. Right. I mean, when I wrote "Becoming," it was interesting that when I was talking to the publishers about what kind of book I wanted to write, this first lady book, of course, they thought, well, we're going to talk about the eight years in the White House. And I was like, well, if I'm going to let people know who I am, those eight years, that was just a piece of a greater story. The eight years in the White House, the time that Barack and I were president and first lady, that doesn't fully define us as people. We lived long lives, long full lives, right? So I think because we were able to bring that level of confidence and experience into the job, even as young as we were, I think that helped me. And I think it's more difficult for younger people like I do. I mean, you amaze me that of your level of poise and confidence because you had to develop yourself in the public eye. I mean, you were a baby figuring this out and trying to hold onto that as you're building it. That's a different challenge, right? I really appreciate that. And so that's why I love this girl, because she carries herself like an old soul. And that is not easy to do. It really means a lot. I've had a lot of great examples. I feel really blessed in my life to be able to see women, such as yourself, up, close and personal. I remember when I first met you, Sasha and Malia, it was at the big world, big wide world data of play. I was going to the executive VP at the time. And it was one of the best experiences ever. So I got to see your grace up close. And of course, watched you the whole presidency. So you're a big inspiration to me. (upbeat music) - This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully. I remember what it's like to be newer in your career, having to make big decisions about everything, whether or not to go back to school, what job to take, where to settle down. You want to put down roots, but there can also be so many hurdles for aspiring homeowners. And buying a home today can be more challenging. Affordability is a real concern and a lot of first time buyers feel stuck, rightfully so. 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So then that becomes the question. I think we all would want to understand how to distill something from. Which is, when is it time to stop reshaping a space and building your own? Or is it something you do simultaneously? >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's a process and it changes at different times in your life and it changes at different points of leverage in your life, right, that word leverage. >> Because we don't always have leverage to control the spaces that we're in. And that's okay, because sometimes you're developing leverage. I mean, I tell a lot of young people, yeah, you want to come into a new job with confidence and owning some stuff. But you also have to earn the right to have an opinion, you know, I'm sorry, I want my young people to be empowered. But sometimes, you know, you got opinions, you got to pay your dues, right? So for me, there were times when I felt like a space wasn't quite right for me. But I didn't have the leverage to change it, you know, and that was okay. I mean, I wasn't upset by it, I understood, right, and I also needed a job. You know, I tell people don't mess up your money, right, I mean, sometimes you don't have leverage because you don't have power because you need to be in a space. >> That also feels quite objective because I think we sometimes personalize our value in the workplace, which can really slow us up. And if you use that objectivity and you say to yourself, look, right now, I don't have the leverage, but if I learn what I learn, I stay here for five, six months, I figure out what I need to figure out, I can take this money, or I can take this experience, and I can flip it somewhere else. >> You never want the circumstances to push you out of a situation that you need to be in, right? So sometimes, you know, it's like, look, my, I grew up watching, working class parents, my father worked a city job his whole life, he was probably not happy, he didn't get paid enough, but he had a family afford to take care of, and he got up every day, and he put up with a whole bunch of stuff. >> My dad too. >> And I think about my father's and our father's journey before I get so upset about a situation that I'm just going, I'm going to blow it up for myself, right? But I believe that showing up in a situation with excellence, like every job that I've done, whether they've accepted me, I've been ready for it, I've tried to learn from it, and show up in a way that they wanted me to stay, right? It's like, so if I'm leaving you, I'm going to leave you wanting me to stay, right? I'm going to leave when I'm ready to leave, and then as you grow and build more power and leverage, that's when I found that I could, I had the opportunity to shape my own environment. >> Yes. >> Like, when I finally left working for city government, I left to run my own nonprofit, and when I left that, I was working as an assistant to the mayor, and then the assistant to the Commissioner of Planning and Economic Development, I was working for someone, right? I was someone's assistant, so I lived under their culture and their rules, because they were the boss. Now I got to a point where I thought, could I run my own thing, am I good enough, am I strong enough to take an idea and grow an organization myself, built my own culture, and shape my own organization? I left to do that, that's when I ran and started a nonprofit organization. That's when I was able to shape culture and dress. >> And I love when you would have it down to, because I think a lot of times we get caught up, you know, I see a lot of times online with what it means to be a CEO, or this title, or that title, but really what you're zering on is the function. The function you want it to pursue is to create a culture, to create a space defined by your beliefs, your concepts to support your mission. That's what drove you to realizing I should start my own thing. >> That's right. >> You know, as opposed to, I just want to be the boss of something. >> Right. >> Right. >> That's an important distinction. >> And you work your way up to power. I mean, like, I want us all as black people, as women in power, to own our spaces, but you really get to own it when it's yours, right? And sometimes we get to do that. And sometimes we don't. I've been fortunate enough to be in positions where I've run my own organization. And then being the first lady of the United States is basically being the CEO of the section of the White House, right? And that's when I was able to say, this is what this will be while I'm at the helm, right? That I still had to think about the role itself, so when it came to fashion, look, so to speak. You know, I've written about the fact that where am I hearing braids? I started wearing my hearing braids in college, right? But as I went up to professional ranks, being a lawyer, I didn't want my hair to be a part of the conversation. I wanted to get the job. So I was straightening my hair just like everybody in the, every black woman in the 80s at the 90s a couple of years ago, so it definitely was something that was held back from us. You didn't have that freedom. So I made the decision, you know, look, America is struggling enough to accept the first black president and first lady. I'm not going to make my hair the issue, you know, that was a choice. You know, I was like, we need to get health care passed, you know, we need to focus on getting kids educated and making sure that you're delineating what is most important, that process of delineation of what do I should lean here, shall I lean at that level of responsibility and objectivity. It's really major. And it was about something more than what I wanted, right? When I'm as first lady of the United States, it wasn't about what I needed to look like. I needed to show up in the way that the country needed me to show up, right? And that was, that wasn't a sacrifice, you know, that was just like, this is the job. The job we are here is to serve the nation, to be a representative of this country, to serve it proudly, not to make my hair, my clothes, my shoes, the story. But I did realize the power that I could do with that platform to lift up fashion in a very different way. And so I was like, all right, if everybody's looking at my shoes, then I'm going to wear a designer that could use the attention, right? I mean, instead of choosing Dior for my inaugural gown, I chose Jason Wu. He was an immigrant, he was young. He was his story mattered in a way that I knew that choosing him to make my gown would change his life in a way that some of those long time designers, you know, it's like you had your turn. And I also love that you would be wearing J. Crew. I mean, I remember that as a teenager and the lady would be like, she's wearing J. Crew. I love J. Crew. How are you going to talk about J. Crew when your wife wears J. Crew? Like, I love that because it's like, that is a universal, affordable, very nice line. I remember that being such a big topic growing up because it was accessible, you know, and people felt like they could relate to you, like she, she shops where I shop. Well, fashion is like that. You know, fashion is high in its designers, but it's also, it's also the beautiful stores at the mall that get us through the J. Crews, the Banana Republics, you know? You know, I used to love co-op. Exactly. All of that is about the American experience and I was like, well, and I did not wear a lot of European designers, not because I don't love European design, but I am the American first lady. So I'm going to rep U.S. brands. So when we would travel abroad, I was like, I'm going to wear an American designer. If we were in India, it was an Indian immigrant American designer. I mean, there were so many ways to work around representation that if you're, by being thoughtful and strategic about how we wanted to show up and and wrapping black designers Tracy Reese that's my guy right I mean they're just so many amazing minority women designers that it was easy for me to make those choices to make to do that mixing up right and we also had to think about the cost of some of these clothes I mean being first lady this is it's been brought with look at the clothing building you like girl I'm like do I'm like dude just just stand down just stand down dude don't look in my clothing store right now do you remember the first the look you were on your first date oh our first day you know what I I don't I know there was a deep cut I you know I remember what I was wearing when we had our first kiss oh my gosh give us the details I do remember that now I hope he's happy that I remembered that even before the first day but I remember it because we were going to us he was a summer associate at the law firm I was working for so they had this summer associate outing at a partner's house in the uppity rich part of Chicago and one of the northern suburbs so we had gone out there for the day and played basketball and volleyball and all that I gave him a ride because he had a jenky car and I was driving a sob so I was like you want to ride with me so I had to take him back and he was like are you busy and I was like I got a little time and we went on a walk down 53rd Street stopped to get ice cream I was wearing black biker shorts and this black and gold stripe top I never remember that it was a long t-shirt okay I remember that clearly because we wouldn't got ice cream and sat outside the ice cream place on the curb I had chocolate and he leaned over and he said can I have a kiss girl I see the movie now I don't know who the man is but I'm you the love the love the love story kiki palm as Michelle Obama I'm here for that moment okay my publishers are here you know they're working on that now they're going to start that I need the romance I wanted to be the love story yes oh that is so special I remember what I had on I mean your life has gotten has been so public I mean it can never really go backwards and I know I'm always hearing this you say this when we talked on my on your podcast when we talked on my podcast when we're talking right now you seem to have no qualms about protecting your inner world in your sense of self I wanted to steal that for the audience like how what is that process for you how do how does one protect their inner selves being so perceived and now we have it on the internet even if you're not an entertainer or you don't decide to be a public figure yeah every single one of us is being perceived constantly and once you are perceived or you are viewed you change right once you're you know who you are in your room alone yeah when somebody's watching you you become someone else so how does one preserve that sense of self you know it it's becoming more and more difficult with AI social media I mean you know just to put it in perspective kiki when when we entered the White House there was no social media there was a social media did not exist and thank God it did not right we had blackberries y'all remember the blackberry I mean they didn't let Barack as the president have an iPhone because it was a security risk right so I think first of all that helped a bit because social media was just starting right yeah we were the first presidency coming into being at the beginning of social media so I think that helped a little bit so I wasn't used to being able to know everything that everybody said about me right that wasn't a possibility right you you know what you got feedback on came through the press it was an article written and it would be an article right you weren't getting 24 hour news feeds you didn't have a comment section to listen to so fortunately for me I didn't even grow up needing that in a way that this generation does yeah so another layer to it you bring it up you know just another so when it became part of my reality social media I wasn't addicted to it right I didn't I didn't need it it wasn't on my phone I'm still not in the habit of looking at social media I'm on it but not of it you know what I'm saying and I'm always warning young people to very be very careful and monitor your access to that I mean it's just like you just don't need to give that many people access to your heart and your mind and the only way you can control it is to not be in it and you can be on it but don't have it on your phone and I just never did so I just didn't get in the habit I would I had a whole communications team I could get press clips I could get them I could get them summarized and laid out without knowing the depths of everybody's thought right and that's good and bad right you know if you get too much of the good you get distorted if you get too much of the bad you get distorted and I also knew that if people weren't getting me right I couldn't trust it to tell me about you I mean I wouldn't trust social media to tell me about my worst enemy yeah because it wouldn't be a clear depiction it wouldn't be real it wouldn't be right now yeah so how do I protect my space I just really protect it I don't I don't let just anybody into my space I don't listen to comments from people who don't know me I never would do that and I just I try to get my daughters just don't touch it it's like it's the dynamite right yeah so that's one way another way that I protect my space is who I let in it you know it's like my community my friends my people I mean Barack and I have been very good about the people who have been with us we bring them along you know Barack his best friends are still his guys from high school I mean he's got a crew of guys from Hawaii who are with him like this I've got girlfriends from law school to mothers that I raised my girls with those are my right or die people the people who know us outside of this before we were ever this and those are the people who I talk to and I'm having wine with who I'm breaking stuff down with you know those are those that's where I get my connection how am I doing I would get that from my mother I mean having my mother in the White House now Mary and Robinson will keep a person grounded because she wasn't pressed about anything and having her there that I could just sit down with and look in the eye and be like am I still the Michelle you knew and she would tell me the truth so I think it's who we surround ourselves with the company we keep and I keep expanding I mean when I find good people like you I scoop you up right so right there we get old enough where you start trusting your judgment right you I tell my girls you got good judgment so be open to new people because some of the best people in my life are people that I met during the White House years and beyond right I've made some good friends over the last 10-15 years and if I had been closed off to them I wouldn't know them but let me tell you as quickly as you let people in you got to be good with letting them out when they show you who they are and they will show you you know the older you get the more you recognize oh you don't you know you don't have me in mind right you're not on my team so you start learning to trust those instincts and you don't have to be rude about it I call it the slow ghost you know you just slowly let people out of your life you don't have to make a big deal a lot of you don't have to tell nobody off you just slowly disappear like a ghost so I'm hearing obviously keep a good circle around you that also helps you to maintain grounded and reflect your truth back to you we don't let too many people in again with social media there's a thing you just assume that that somehow that person's valid don't know you they don't know you I was just in Chicago and let me tell you the energy in the city was incredible everyone was just buzzing with excitement while I was there I actually had a bit of downtime so I booked this Airbnb experience it was a custom sneaker making workshop it was seriously so much fun first she takes you through her space and shows you exactly what a magic happens you get to see the whole process ask a million questions and check out all these different leathers and fabrics. But the best part, I got to customize my own pair of sneakers. I made them especially for IMO. And honestly, the conversation and the hands-on activity made it such a memorable part of the trip. Now, here's what really struck me. Chicago was absolutely packed, and I'm thinking, if you live in a city that draws big events like this, you could be making real money those weekends. That's the beauty of Airbnb. When people list their spaces, it allows travelers like me to actually experience a city like a local instead of just staying at a hotel. So if you've got travel coming up, think about listing your space. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/host. So I have found when it comes to making lasting changes in your health, it's about small interventions adding up over time, which brings me to bi-optimizers' magnesium breakthrough. 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Friends, relationships, career goals, big life anxieties, we get into all of it on the show. It's become a kind of therapy for me. But just to be clear, I am a firm believer in actual therapy as well. Therapy isn't only for moments of crisis. It's for anyone who wants more support, clarity or tools for navigating whatever life throws at them. Growth therapy can connect you with thousands of licensed therapists across the U.S. offering both virtual and in-person sessions, including nights and weekends. You can search for what matters to you, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability, and get started in as little as two days. One thing I really like is that there are no subscriptions or long-term commitments. You simply pay per session, making it easier to find care that fits your life. If there's something in your life you'd like to change, growth therapy can help you start. The therapist you want takes your insurance on grow, grow accepts over 125 insurance plans, sessions average $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com/IMO today to get started. That's growtherapy.com/IMO, growtherapy.com/IMO, availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. >> In terms of, you know, we're bringing up Sasha Malia, your amazing daughters, and young women in general coming up online, seeing so many conflicting things around beauty. I mean, I would be remiss not to connect that to what we're talking about with the look. How do young women properly define their value and their relationship to beauty? On one side they're saying, you need this thing, you need that thing, you need this makeup, you need this hair, and then the other end it's like, inner beauty, you know, but you need to have glass cans too, like how it's so much coming at them. >> It is. It is, and it's not right. It's not right. I mean, what I try to do to my, with my daughters, and a lot of the young girls in my life, I just remind them that they are being marketed to, you know, that this is, like this is about money. All right? Somebody telling you to buy this lip gloss, this, do this, try that, it's all, it's all your algorithm. So I just try to talk honestly and seriously with them about how the economy works and how the beauty industry works. I try to lift them up, you know, I, Barack and I tell our daughters, we've told our daughters from the day they were born, that they were beautiful and more importantly smart and worthy. And we just keep saying it over and over again, when I meet some young girls, I met some beautiful young girls backstage and all I wanted them to know is that they were beautiful and for them to keep it up and to be smart and to read, you know, it's just, I try to feed into them whatever is being sucked out of them on the other end, but it isn't easy. We don't set it up so that it is easy for young girls to find themselves in the midst of all of this, but I try to get my daughters to stay off social media to not read the comments, to do other things other than be on their phones. I also want them to feel good about playing in their beauty, you know, it's like having had the experience of being so looked at in the White House, they still have such unique style. I remember I was saying as soon as I seen them, I was like, I love your fashion, I was saying that's the same. And they're both very different. They're very different. You know, it's actually going to give you that bow-ho-sheet. Oh my God, yeah. You know what I mean? I'm really on it. Zoe Kravitz. Like, I live for their fashion, but I wanted them to play in that space. So I was like, yeah, try that, try that. You know, their dad didn't always understand it, sometimes he's like, why is she wearing those lashes? I was like, let her play. It's not going to be that important in a minute, you know? I mean, so there is also fun and beauty. You know, it's. I think it should be fun. It should be fun. It should be fun, you know. It's like striking a balance that, you know, I try not to comment too much. You know, if they look good, I'm like, okay, you're playing in that space. I just try not to judge it. Now, our deal when we were in the White House was that, because I understood how social media and the press would go after them, as like, when you're with us, that was really the only time that was the deal we had with the White House press corps, is that you cannot take photos or write about the girls in their private life, but if they were doing an official thing with us, okay, that's when you saw them at the Christmas tree lighting, or when we were seeing Nelson Mandela, or they were on an official trip. But they had to be dressed for that. I was like, you can have us say, but you got to work with somebody on what you're going to wear, because you got to wear a certain thing when you go see the Pope, you know? You can't show up with your belly out when you see the Pope. So I'm not going to leave that to a 13-year-old. It's like, no, you don't get to choose, because you don't know what you're doing, right? Yes. And you have to think about the look, what we aspect of it. You know, we had a deal that when you were on in your first child role, it was a cooperative effort in terms of what they dress, how they look, they had to say, but it had to be signed off on by people, like their mother, and somebody with some sense, right? Yes. But in their regular lives, as little girls, they chose their prom dresses, they chose what they wore to school, they chose how they did their hair and their nails, and I was like, you play all you want. And I wanted them to play and to get used to what their style was, and to make mistakes. You know, all teenagers look back on their pictures, and they think, oh my God, what was I thinking, but you need those moments. It's like, yeah, that was a little crazy. And I feel like I started playing more after, because I was always on some little dougie house or vibe. I mean, everything when I was a teenager, I always had a blazer on, I was really the VP. I was tied to that. When I look back on my pictures, all I was doing was, I'm an Oprah. I'm an Oprah. I'm an Oprah, I'm an Oprah, my first party. Like, go away. I don't know why I was so serious, Jeff. Did you get to choose all of your fashion or what you were to? I was very stressed as a kid. You know, because I felt so much responsibility, and I started to hear very early on, because the adults or people will come, my daughter looks up to you, and you, I'm watching you baby, and I'm like, oh no, the aunties, I got to, you know, so I was always trying to just, you know, but then it got to a point where it was a little too much black girl magic, right? Who's just like, oh, a child, I can't handle it every day. I was always at church, and I was just trying so hard to make sure that I made everyone proud that I was not living for me, and so I had to kind of redefine the little. Well, this is what I was talking about. I mean, that burden, it's like, mine, you know, I was a grown woman. I could be a doogie houseer if I needed to. I mean, you were growing up. We were trying to figure it out and I tried to do it. to do the opposite of that. I didn't, but that was also your job. You were also in the profession. And that was a choice that you made because you enjoyed that. Malia and Sasha didn't choose it, right? I think that was also, that's also a different thing. So I didn't want them to feel like they were carrying a burden with something that they had no say in wanting to be. And I think that's, you know-- And I love hearing you talk about that because you know I got my son, he's three. And he's going to grow up now with, you know, people-- oh, your mom is Kiki Palmer, whatever that means, and whatever comes with that. And so I love hearing you talk about responsibility and legacy with how you do with Sasha and Malia because it makes me think about how I want to be able to also articulate those nuances to my son, for him to have freedom to understand what it means, but to also never feel like what I've taken on is something that he didn't have to say on. So it was very empowering. And you don't have to be Michelle Obama or Kiki Palmer to feel that. If you are a parent that has a child that you feel is feels pressured to follow in your footsteps, we all, as parents, are trying to figure out that balance of letting our kids be who they want to be without them being mini-meas. So it's the same struggle, y'all. It's just that our struggle is on TV. Yeah. It's so true. I always feel like that, you know, we're all living the same kind of thing just from different vantage points. So I love how you, how you brought that down. I don't know a ton about interior design, but I've picked up a few tricks along the way. For our house, Kelly and I love keeping things simple with little pops of character and color here and there. And when we do feel like we could freshen things up, we always turn to wafer first. We napped this really nice jute rug and ivory from their Martha Stewart collection. And for about a week, I was making constant Big Lebowski references to how it tied the room together. But I stand by it. That's exactly what was happening. With wafer, I always know I'm going to get amazing bang from my buck. Their furniture, decor, and home essentials really last. And wafer rewards members get 5% back every day, helping you get even more value from your wafer purchases. Join wafer rewards today and get 5% back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to wafer.com to shop all things home. That's w-a-y-f-a-i-r.com. Wafer, every style, every home. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound to Zepatide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose weight and keep it off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepbound contains to Zepatide and should not be used with other to Zepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia, symptom type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you had severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gall bladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, depression, or suicidal thoughts. Before schedule procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonolurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor, call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com. [MUSIC PLAYING] What is the difference between to you assimilating to make it through an experience versus thriving in it? Oh, my goodness. What is a big one? You know, assimilating through, I think it's two is two self-conscious. I think thriving through it means that you really are in your purpose in the moment. Like, when you're in your purpose in the moment, nothing else matters. And let me give you an example. When I'm with kids, and when I was first lady, working with kids, what is was will always be my joy, my heart. I can break down now just talking about the value and worth of every child. Right, man. And when I am with young people, I am there. I am in it. It doesn't matter what I have on. In fact, the clothes I have on, they better not get in the way of that interaction. Because the more important thing is not what I look like. But how do I make that kid feel? And if I'm all stuffy and in some dress that can't be touched and can't be wrinkled, I am not in my purpose. Right? So in those moments, the clothes have to facilitate the thing I'm trying to do, which is connect with this kid right now. And if that means I got to get on the floor, you know, if I've got to get down to their level, if that means we're going to do a push-up together, or we're going to run around, or somebody's going to want to sit on my lap or give me a sloppy little hug, then the clothes have to be ready for that. And that's, I would tell my stylist that all the time, it's like if kids around don't put me in something precious, because you know the minute a child comes, I'm on the floor. I am doing whatever I have to do to connect. And I think that that's when you're no longer conscious. You're no longer self-conscious, right? Losing yourself in the purpose. Whatever that you use to, you know, or whatever, accumulating you to that point that got you prepared, once you're in it, that all disappears. That's right. That's right. Your self disappears into the work that's important, right? And when it comes to clothes, the clothes are not, they're never the point for me. You know, I love to look cute. I love a pretty dress. But if I'm in a dress and a child doesn't feel like they can connect to me, then what's the point? You know, if my dress is saying more than what I'm trying to say to some young person, then get it off of me. It's not serving me and it's no longer important to me, right? And I think that for me, it's children. I think each and every one of us has to find-- when we find that thing that is so deep in us, the thing that moves us so much, all the external stuff, how we look, how we move, all that becomes secondary to the purpose. And I think that for me is what helps me stay present. And not be self-conscious. Because if I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, and if I'm changing a life or I'm making a move, if I'm making somebody feel seen, especially a young person, then I don't care what somebody says about me. That seems like a great way to also figure out if you are, in fact, doing the thing you should be doing. Because maybe if I'm not able to lose myself in it like that, then it isn't for me to begin with. And again, we don't always all get to live in our purpose. I think we strive to live there. But again, reality sets in, right? These are high-class problems. I get to pick and choose now, right? And some most of us don't get to live in our purpose. We got to do what we got to do to keep it together. It is hard. That doesn't mean we don't strive for it. But I don't want to set it up in a way-- I know what real life is, right? I know that my father-- my father was an artist. My father got a scholarship to the art institute. He could have been a great artist. But some of his work is now up at the Presidential Center, a piece of art that I didn't even know he did. I didn't see it until it was there. My father was talented, gifted, he was an artist. He did not live in his purpose, right? But he made us his purpose. He made his children his purpose, right? And I think that made him self-conscious. I think it made him forget about his limp. I think it made him forget about the fact that he was a blue collar worker. I think it made him forget about all the things that he didn't have and couldn't get. Because his purpose was us, feeding into me and my brother. And there are a lot of people out there. I think most people most of our parents and our grandparents who don't get to do what they want to do because of racism, limitations, lack of opportunity, they don't get to live their purpose, and then we, their offspring, become their purpose. Well, what you just broke down was just so dope as well, because sometimes we assume that what we are gifted with is our purpose, right? We talent it. We can sing. We can do this. Our purpose actually could be something that is my children, or this community center, or this, I think that is so important, which you said, because a lot of times we're taught that value and purpose is predicated on how much attention it brings. Or how much money it makes, or how famous you are, right? That's new to this generation, right? So I think there are many ways to get lost and to become less self-conscious about the spaces that you're in. If you're going to a job where somebody is treating you badly, but you know that check is going to get your kids to college, there are a lot of people I know who put up with some crazy stuff because they're keeping their eye on the prize. They're not dealing in their own happiness or fulfillment or meaning. I know they're men and women out here today who are getting up going to work at jobs they don't like because it's putting food on the table and sending their kids to college. It is serving a purpose much bigger than them. How important is it do you think to put to have an end date on that? I ask this because someone had mentioned that to me the other day when I was stressed because you know me, I'm unfortunately always trying to do so many things in their job. Yes, and they've always got us being a mission and they were like, well when's the end date on that? What do you mean the end date on stress? I don't stress, but for instance, is there an end date on this job that they hate, meaning when I get to year three and I made X amount of the, do you think it is important for us to do that when we're in these situations that may not be that fitting for us where we have an end date. Look, by March, it's March right now, by August, I'm going to X, Y and Z. Do you think that's even a fair way to move? I don't, I think we all have to, what I try to figure out, what I have still tried to figure out is what is my happiness, mine, and I think we all have a different definition for it. What I have learned in all these years with all the powerful tables that I've sat in and all that I've seen, the thing that I know is that it has nothing to do with how much stuff I have, how much, how big a house, how much money is in the bank account, even though there is a number that matters, that makes life a lot easier. I have learned that for me enough, it comes when I feel like I have friendship, I have love, I have a good community around me, and I feel like I have given something to somebody else. I don't know that there's an end date on it in terms of the do, but at some point I have to be settled, I have to say I am enough, I have done enough, I am okay, you know, that's all an internal struggle, like the end, and we have to figure it out for ourselves, right? I mean, I know what a doozy. Because then you know it's one of those things where it's also tailor-made is what I'm hearing, we're all on our own individual relationship with that. But I think it starts with how we feel about ourselves. You know, I mean, I think we can work for all this external approval, somebody else to tell us that we're beautiful, we can wait and hold our breaths to have somebody else love us enough, you know, but in the end, the work is really with us on us, you know. It's the war, it's the finally sitting in your own head and saying, I don't need anyone else to tell me that I'm worthy, and that's, it's almost like the look is based on what we see when we look in an mirror. You know, that's a huge part of it is like accepting our own gaze and being happy with what we see, and it's amazing that when we get to that place, everything else seems to settle down around us, you know. Because I think we're caring that frequency, we're caring that energy with us, that it probably, yeah, just changes the game. And we're starting not to give about what somebody else says and thinks, and that takes a minute. You know, you earn that wisdom, you know, and that's why Kiki, don't be, don't get impatient with yourself. You 12 and a half. I am impatient. You know that. You are a baby. And some of this stuff, wisdom is for the old, you know, it takes time to go through some stuff, and at 62 years old, I am developing, I'm still growing, still developing some wisdom that, but it's all about how I see me, you know, it is that, it's that gaze of myself, right? Wow, wow, that is so awesome. Well, time is coming to an end. I want to, I mean, there's so many more things that I can ask you. We got to do a part two, three, four, five, like always. Yeah, it's ladies night, yeah, there's a lot more coming, you'd be happy to get on with it. Oh, yeah, they got a lot of fun stuff coming to the stage. This is going to be a good night, but before we leave, you know, I love play games, I thought we could play a fun game. It's going to play a game. Keep it, change it, leave it, okay. Keep it, change it, leave it. So it's a little rapid fire. I'm going to give you some prompt. Oh, Lord, I got to be rapid. Oh, Lord. You know, the rapid is always crazy, because like, honestly, how fast do I have to be? Really? You're going to tell me if you want to keep it, change it, leave it, and you know, tell me a little bit of why, maybe, okay, okay, here we go. The first one is power suits, keep it, you know, there's nothing wrong with a good power suit, especially if you can wear pants. I hate panting hoes. I am done. You know, it's always tear, like, why do you make them so thin, it's why they mess with us. They make us wear something that you can wear once. It's a dumb thing, dumb invention. Being the first, like, the first, you know, carpenter, the first, you know, black thing of president. Keep it, for sure. We wear a lady, I mean, like, we better be ready for some first. There's a lot of stuff we didn't get to do, so we want to keep the first. We still have, we got our ways to, we got a lot of stuff we're trying to get in. Yeah, we want to definitely keep that. A lot of people are hot on the first, but I feel the same way as you do. That's okay, let's continue to break down the word. We're prepared for it. We've been preparing for years to be the first, perfectionism, perfectionism, what was it? I would change it, change the meaning of it. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to do your best, but not placing everything and not making that be the reason for everything. I think change, what it means, you know, keep it, but change the, don't let that be in so many years. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I took that. That was me personally. Okay. Girl, boss, culture. Girl, boss, culture. Yeah, you know, I guess the way I would describe it is like, you know, just this idea of being, you know, needing to be a boss, you know, like, I'm a boss, I'm a boss of this or that, you know, the idea around that the best role, position is whatever a boss is. Well, I don't know, I don't know if I, I, I would leave that, right, because like you should be the role that is suited for you and not everybody wants to be a boss and that's okay. That's not always the best position. Let me tell you, being a boss sucks sometimes, you know, it's not all that it's cracked up to be. You know, I, I would, I would leave it. Yeah. Yeah. I feel you, I agree. Um, working twice as hard. You kind of said something similar to this with the perfection, I think I know what you might would say. Yeah. I, I, look, I would, I would keep it because I always think even if I work twice as hard, even if you don't see it, I'm still better than you. I, I still win, I mean, it's like going to the gym, right, like I'm still getting stronger. Right. You know, so what's like wrong about it for me? I'll use that muscle. Okay. Just three more coat switching, coat switching, I change it. I think it's a, it's a tool to have, but there shouldn't be a code we have to switch from. I mean, that's part of what we talk about when it comes to our hair and how we show up in the world. Yeah. As long, I want the code to broaden, but I do think there are times when you do need to show up in the way that you need to show up. Yeah. Or that's the translation of language in that moment in time, you know, it's like multiple languages. Um, protecting your peace. Oh, keep it. Keep it and never let it go. Ever, ever, ever. And then this is the last one. Reinvention after 50. Oh, keep it, y'all. Let me tell you, anybody over 50? Anybody over 50? You know. This time in life is the best. It is the best. You talk about freedom. That's so exciting. I would keep it. There's a lot of good stuff coming. I got 20 more years to go. It's take, take your time. But when you get there, let's talk. Because I'll be, uh, I'll be 70. Yes. I need to be over there with you in some islands somewhere. There you come on. Come on. Well, I just thank you so much, Mrs. Obama. Thank you, Kiki. And thank you to Essence for having me. I love you all so, so much. And I love you, Kiki Palmer. And I love you too, Mrs. Michelle Obama. Thank you guys. God bless you. And we'll see you. Enjoy the rest of your essence. [MUSIC] This episode of IMO is brought to you by Kologuard, a non-invasive colon cancer screening test. There are certain things in life you keep meaning to get around to. And for me, health screenings always ended up on that list. But I was surprised to learn that colon cancer is on the rise. 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