PASSION: Love, Poison, and a Wife Accused of Murdering Her Husband

Hi everyone, before today's episode, we want to tell you about What the Fact. It's a new show from Conor Tomlinson, who you know from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, and Carter Roy from Murder, True Crime Stories. Every week they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Conor's infectious energy will make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on Earth. Follow What the Fact, wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact is. This is Crime House. Okay Sabrina, before we dive into this episode, I have a question, or maybe a game. Let's call it a game. Red flag or green flag. Right. I feel like this is kind of divisive, but maybe this won't be. You're 17 on a glamorous transatlantic ship and a charming older man takes interest in you. But he's also 23 years older than you, so red flag or green flag. Red flag. Yeah, well, because I feel like there's a certain age where it becomes less of a red flag, but she's 17. Yeah. 17 is too young. Okay. I have another one for you, my turn. Your husband has a thing for dosing himself with arsenic. I feel like I'm supposed to say red flag, but I feel like there is an exception here in my mind, where it's like, what exception? What if he was in a dangerous field and the risk of him, he was a spy in the risk of him being the end. Every day. Right. He's microdosing so that if someone tries to poison him in the future, he won't die, because he's built up an immunity because this is who you're dating, a spy, but probably not. So I guess red flag, although I felt pressured to say that. Okay. But if these two questions were concerning to you, yeah, they should be. They're concerning to us. We promise they are. Yeah. But somehow, some way, they were not really concerning back in the 19th century, which is where today's story takes place. Today, we are talking about Florence Maybrick, a 19th century housewife convicted of poisoning her husband. But the story is much more complicated than that. Both of these moments just presented actually happened to Florence Maybrick. And these are just two of many problems in her marriage, unfortunately. Yep. So this is a case where, on one side, we have a cold, uncaring husband. And on the other, we have a wife who feels trapped in a marriage filled with double standards and wants an escape. But did she want that freedom badly enough to kill? Welcome to Crimes of Passion, a crime house original powered by Pave Studios, where your hosts, Sabrina Deanna Roga, and Corinne Vienn. Every Tuesday, we're exploring a different corner of the true crime universe, examining cases that left a permanent impact on society. This season, we're stepping into the darker side of romance. We're love turns to obsession where logic slips away and raw emotion pushes people past the point of return. If you're loving Crimes of, please follow rate and review us wherever you listen. It helps us build this community and we love hearing from you. To get early access and add free listening, subscribe to the Crime House Plus community on Apple podcasts. You can also catch us on YouTube where we include visuals that bring every case to life. Today, we're talking about Florence Maybrick. A young American woman, thrown into 19th century England high society, trapped in a miserable marriage, and ultimately convicted of poisoning her husband. When Florence first met her husband, James, she thought she'd found the man of her dreams. However, their marriage turned into a living nightmare, full of lies, deceit and resentment. And when James was found dead with traces of arsenic in his body, everyone blamed Florence. Did she really do it? Was Florence a calculated killer or a victim of Victorian misogyny? Like always, we have a warning before we begin. This episode contains descriptions of poisoning and death. And also of Victorian misogyny. Florence Maybrick was a controversial figure back in Victorian era England. She was seen as a resentful housewife who took the ultimate revenge on her unloving husband. But today, we're going to present maybe an innocent woman who was framed for murder that she didn't actually commit. But we want to hear from you, so let us know what you think at the end of the episode. Victorian England was stuffy. It was overly serious and extremely strict when it came to women's behavior. And Florence, she didn't fit into that mold. She was young. She was outspoken. She was messy in her own right. And when her husband died under strange circumstances, she was the easiest person to blame. Strange circumstances as in people believed he was poisoned with arsenic. Strange. Was Florence a lady poisoner? That's what we're going to talk about. And I looked it up, and while yes, there is a stereotype of female killers using poison to murder, the real stats that I think are important to remember is that males commit the majority of homicides. And women who do are more likely to choose poison than men are. But it is not the number one way in which women kill. What is the number one? Not poison. I was focused on the poison stuff. But I also think it's important to talk about the fact that back in the 19th century, England, people were consuming things that we today now know as toxic poisonous. Like arsenic wasn't candy back then. They were like snorting mummified brains. Yeah, literally. We should do a whole thing about that. Yeah, we are ones to judge, and we're judging. Right. And also, I feel like in 100 years from now, we're going to look back and be like, oh, you guys were consuming red dye 40 constantly. Yeah. That's crazy. So we can look back and be like, how are they doing that? Why are they doing that? But people of our era. Yeah. And so we don't know what we don't know yet. And those firecracker ice pops are delicious. But no, they also had arsenic in wallpaper pigment and in face powders. There was lead in canned foods, mercury in medications, strict nine in tonics marked for invageration. And that's just a name of few. So what do you think about lady poisoners? Because I love that as a topic. Yeah. And I have a whole book called like lady poisoners, I think we've definitely used it in some of our own designs before and stuff. You know what? It might not be a popular thing to say, but I feel like I'm kind of pro lady poisoners. And that is because the majority of women who are killed are killed by men and men that are closest to them. And they're always so violent. Yes. And it absolutely cannot be said for the reverse. Like most men are not killed by their wives. So I feel like in the case of lady poisoners, there's very rarely a lady poisoner who is doing it just to do it, it is usually to escape a horrible relationship that they're stuck in. Also, I'm not condoning murder in any sense, but when you look back in history, I just think there's so much intelligence to poisonings. It's a long game. Right. It's a slow kill. Yep. And it makes me think of like witches and women who helped save other women who were in bad situations. Oh my gosh. Yes. But again, we're not condoning it. We just understand it historically. Yeah. We understand it. Yeah. Okay. So with all this context, should we get into the case itself? Let's do it. Okay. Florence Maybrick was seen as a black sheep in Victorian society. She was American. 24 years younger than her husband, James, and didn't fit into high class society. Up behind closed doors, it was James, who was the problem. He was addicted to drugs, he had a short temper, and was a nightmare of a husband. So Florence was miserable. She was resentful, and she was desperate for an escape. And only a couple of dashes of arsenic could get the job done. According to statistics, the average person walks past 36 murders in their lifetime. Unlike in Hollywood movies, they're not easy to spot. They seamlessly blend into our everyday lives, assuming rules, as family members, helpful colleagues, or even the person lying beside you each night. I wanted to be out of jail, I couldn't wait till I got out, I was in there with someone who was clearly psychopathic. Using a basket of research and primary audio, morbidology is an award-winning, trick-crime podcast that shines a light on the darkest corners of humanity. Through our investigation, we have attained evidence, which we are not releasing at this time, which leads us to believe that Jolene is not alive. Turn into morbidology each week across all podcast platforms. Florence Maybrook sits inside a narrow stone cell. The air tastes a stale of rust and damp wool. She wraps her arms around herself, trying to study her breath. when her tried to. started a week ago. Florence was certain of her fate. A foreign woman, a scandalous marriage, but as the days went by and the evidence was presented, she'd felt something unexpected. A glimmer of hope. Witness after witness had raised more doubt than certainty, and in this moment, Florence, despite the exhaustion, allowed herself to feel something that she had restrained for months. So she sits on the wooden bench waiting to know her fate. The jury has been gone for less than 30 minutes. She's certain it will take longer. Her thoughts are interrupted by the all-too-familiar sound down the cord. Footsteps. Keyes chingling. They're coming closer. The guard is coming to unlock the cell. She wasn't expecting him to be this quick. The jury must have reached their verdict. So she stands to greet the guard who swiftly unlocks the cell door. The iron door grows as it scrapes against the dirt-covered floor with resistance. Her body tenses hoping that this is the last time she'll ever hear that sound. The guard offers a hand to help her up the stairs, but Florence shakes her head with refusal. She rises on her own. She will not give them the satisfaction of seeing her tremble. As Florence emerges into the courtroom, she takes in the crowd from beneath her thin, black veil. The room is packed with spectators and journalists, all one swirling mass, itching with their own motives. In Florence takes her seat. She folds her hands on her lap and inhale slowly and then judge emerges from his chamber. Followed shortly by the jury, all 12 of them, men, all solemn, all stiff, all of them avoiding eye contact with Florence. They won't meet her gaze. Not the jury, not the judge, and just like that, the hope that Florence was feeling evaporates, replaced by a deep sense of dread. A moment later, her fears are confirmed. For the murder of Florence's husband, James Maybrick, the jury finds her guilty. That's so much to say, but we'll get there. So yeah, on August 7, 1889, Florence Maybrick was found guilty and sentenced to death for the murder of her husband, James Maybrick. I seem so extreme. And once you hear all the details of this case, it's going to be even more extreme. And if you're not enraged, I am for all of us. Okay, so to better understand how Florence got here, let's go back to the beginning where Florence was born. She was born Florence Elizabeth Chandler in Mobile, Alabama on September 3, 1862. And she was the daughter of an upper-class southern family. Her father, William George Chandler, was a prosperous banker and civil war veteran. And her mother, Carrie Chandler, was a former New York socialite who was a little too familiar with scandal, which I both love and I hate for Florence because like growing up, the way that she did must have been difficult. Well, and then she could be held to her mom's same standards. Right. Sadly, Florence's father, George died in 1863 when Florence was barely a year old. And then her mother very quickly remarried, a Confederate officer who soon after died from wounds he received in battle and then Carrie later remarried for a third time. So it was like a lot of her upbringing was following her mother's whims. And bopping around her mom was just like doing her own thing. Right. But that's not to say that she didn't have a good childhood, so to speak, because she did grow up with a lot of opulence. She was very clever. She was musically trained. She was fluent in French. And she was raised to be very confident. I do love that about her. Like there were a lot of pieces of information that said that she could work a room and that it didn't matter who was in that room. If men were there, whatever she just like did her own thing. I mean, it sounds like her mom was doing the same thing. Right. So that's like a piece that I love that she inherited from her mom. They could have been hustlers together. Right. But she also just knew that it didn't matter what was deemed a superior. She was going to take up space. And as a woman back in 19th century, I just applaud her for that. But it is something that later infuriated the people of Victorian era England. Right. Because she didn't grow up in a traditional home. She didn't have traditional standards. Yeah. Her mom, Carrie took Florence and her brother traveling around the world. They went between the US and Europe. Her mom married several times, loved a party, etc. So definitely very different. Yeah. That being said, Florence did go on the grand tour, which was basically a way for families to basically like present their eligible daughters for marriage. Yeah. Which I can't even imagine having to do that. Like taking her around the world, being like, look at my livestock for sale. Yeah. Yeah. How many ceilings breadbly for her? Oh, but this is how in the spring of 1880, 17-year-old Florence found herself traveling with her mother, Carrie, from New York to Liverpool, England. In case I mentioned no. They traveled on the SS Baltic. And it is during this 10-day voyage that Florence meets James Maybrick. Unfortunately, at first, there were no red flags. And they got to know each other and got along really, really well. James was a 41-year-old English cotton merchant who had spent the last few years living in Virginia. And he took interest in Florence immediately. I mean, how could you not? She's a 17-year-old beautiful girl from the States. Yeah, but she's 17. I know. Well, I know. It was like, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Yuck. They spent days dancing, flirting, strolling the deck. It's very, very Titanic without the thinking ship and, oh, without the dying. Or someone did die. It just took a lot longer. Didn't happen on the ship. Yeah. You got thrown off the raft in one way or the other. Yeah. But you might be screaming at this point in the story. Okay. Well, this guy's 41. And she's 17. That's a 24-year age gap. Count. 24. Right? 24-year age gap. But it was the Victorian era. Even though, like, when I was thinking about this, I was thinking, like, how inappropriate it feels for a 40-something-year-old to go after a teenager, which is. It shouldn't just feel that way. It is. Yeah. But then I was thinking about the age of 40 and how it doesn't feel right now for our lifetimes and, like, how long our life expectancy is. But when people turn 40, you have an over-the-hill party. It's supposed to indicate you're, like, halfway to death. Right. And then he's going after a teenager. But, like, technically, wouldn't over-the-hill be 50, 51? How many people are living to 102? I guess that's true. I guess maybe 47. Yeah. Sure. Let's change it. Change the rules. Like, in the grand scheme of things, like, that's kind of, you know, that's the context. Yes. That's 40-year-old over the hill and you're going after a teenager. No offense to the 40-year-olds. We're very close to that, too. It's sickening. But by all accounts, if you want to believe the way that the story goes, Florence was also very interested. She was smitten. James was very sophisticated. He was worldly. He was unlike any other guy that she'd ever met before. And there are a couple things that I want to say about this. Florence is 17. No. Her brain is scientifically not done cooking yet. And she's on a grand tour basically being sold off to men. So, like, did she even have a choice? Was this the best option of all the other men of which she was being offered to? And you're also on a boat. And I feel like if anyone has ever been on, like, a vacation or something where you're like, you're, everyone has, like, the hotel crash. It's like mind. Yeah. It's like you're suddenly, you just your world becomes only the place where you are. And you're like, well, I have to make all my life decisions just from the group that's here. This is a child who went a lot of cruises. Alaska was amazing. Everyone should go. But I also do understand how this could be enticing for Florence because she's meeting this man, James, who is, yes, much older than her. But he's sophisticated, charming, showing interest in her. She's never had a stable father figure. She probably craves stability, right. And James Maybrick might present that opportunity for her. Well, and she's also seeing her mom remarry. So, I wonder if there's part of her where it's like, oh, well, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. You know, try try again. Yeah, try try again. Yeah. She's not thinking necessarily of the certain personality types that might trap you in a marriage. And it's not as easy to get out. Yeah. So either way, Florence is falling for him. And we can understand why James fell for Florence. She's 17. She's beautiful. I think it's also something to note that James was not lacking with options. People thought he was a very eligible bachelor, which is something that makes people hate Florence later. This kind of reminds me of Elvis Presley a little bit too, just like his old love affair story. He's older. That's true. I guess I don't know much about that story for teenager. So James and Florence's courtship continues after the ship docked in Liverpool. And 16 months later on July 27th, 1881, the two were married in a London courthouse. At first, they moved to James's hometown of Liverpool, where they briefly move in with some of James's friends, which is like such an interesting start to their marriage. And then I guess maybe it didn't interfere too much with their marriage canutling because nine months later, Florence gave birth to their first child, a son named James Jr. - I think it's like nine months almost to the day. - Damn, like they had sex the night of their wedding. - Well, it's so worthy of pregnant before then. - Or were they, I don't know. - How was pregnancy math back then? 'Cause it's also confusing. - Yeah. - So when James, Jr. was just a few months old, they decide that they should move again and they're gonna go to Virginia for a couple of years while James tends to his cotton business. But by 1884, James was feeling homesick, so they moved back to Liverpool and this time it was for good. They leased a nice house, they had a daughter named Gladys and they seemed really happy together. They were this perfect family, with a perfect life, at least that's what it looked like on the outside. But inside of the home, things were crumbling. - Because Florence was very quick to learn that that charming, lovable man that she met on the SS Baltic was not the real James. Shocker, that you don't know the real person. Which is interesting because people do say, like you should go on vacation with your significant other to like, that's a good test, but they did the opposite. They got a lot on an occasion, bringing back to real life is very different. - James was basically an old man. He was moody, controlling, deeply insecure and also very obsessed with his health. Like I think today he would be considered a hypochondria but back then it didn't really convert or like that was in a common diagnosis. - That's right. - You know, until health back in the 19th century. But he was always convinced he was gonna die or catch whatever new disease was out there. Which I understand the stress of it. Like my god, people were dying left and right. Willie Nilly. - Right. - Just like, probably so many people in his life probably died around him. - And he also had money. So it's like combined this terrible fear with the ability and the access to multiple doctors to the point where he, at one point, I think had six or seven doctors that he was seeing. And they weren't communicating with each other. He was just, Willie Nilly, I want this from this doctor, this from this doctor or maybe getting the same thing from two different doctors. - Yes. - Yeah. He is getting prescribed various medications and tinctures. - He's actually hurting himself. Like he's scared of dying but he's gonna be the cause of his own death. - Poetic. - This is like pay attention to these details. So he had like iron opium, which were strength restoring tonics. He also had this thing called fallor solution which is a medical arsenic tonic to improve his bigger appetite and sexual performance. He had strict nine, a pick me up to stimulate or treat digestive issues. And that's just to name a few. Like he had a whole medical cabinet. - Which I know that these are medicines. Like he's obviously getting prescribed but there is something about getting prescribed a tonic over just a pill where I'm kind of like, oh, bring back tonics. - Take your tonic. I want a tonic instead. - It feels like pinky up little treat. - Yeah, during this time, these were considered medications. And while they did know that some of these in large amount of quantities could kill you, they thought they had benefits in the right dosage. So here James is with his own like little medicine cabinet and unbeknownst to him or maybe knownst to him, they all have like these addictive habit forming or dependency forming side effects that are running rampant throughout this entire story. - Yeah, but all of this was quote unquote normal for the time, I guess. But even so, Florence seeing how much James was taking, she knew that this was a bit too far. But she didn't really know what to make of it. And unfortunately she didn't have many people to turn to talk to about this. She was thousands of miles away from home. She was on James's territory, his family, his colleagues, his friends, those were the people in his social circle. So it was hard for her to go out and like raise concerns. And she quickly learned that her presence wasn't always welcome. So that really added to her reluctance to say much. - And also just like the feeling of isolation and just being alone. - Yeah, I'd probably scary too to watch the person who is like your lifeline to life there also behave that way. - Right. - Women in Liverpool society whispered about her because James was apparently a hot commodity. Everyone wanted James. He must have been super sexy. He was this well-off bachelor. - Or he just had a lot of money. Who knows, probably that. And when he returned to Liverpool with Florence on his arm, the women who had hoped to be in her place were just, you know, they were outraged. They didn't think that this was the end of their chance. Instead they just saw Florence as a threat. - Maybe temporary. - Yeah. - The servants and staff judged her for being American and not conforming to the rigid expectations of upper class England. And she didn't have much luck winning over her husband's family either. - No. So James had two brothers, Michael and Edwin. And Michael, who was two years younger than James, was arrogant and largely unimpressed with Florence's American sensibilities. AKA, he thought that she was unrefined and made it very, very clear he didn't approve of or like Florence very much. I do think there's probably a little bit of jealousy of Michael of his brother. Like James Maybrook is the eldest. So he inherits everything, right? So Michael, who's the second oldest, probably has this like chip on his shoulder and anger towards his brother. And then anyone else who gets to benefit off of his brother's well-being. - Maybe he's in love with Florence too. And then that's just how it all manifests. - Well, interesting you say that because Edwin, the other brother, was the baby of the family. And also much closer and age to Florence, they actually got along. And to the point where I think like Florence made a comment once at a dinner party saying, if only I had met Edwin first. But after that, James like snapped at her, lost his shit at her. And Edwin realized like he can't be as close to Florence because it didn't look good with his family. - Yeah. - So the one person who kind of was nice to her, was no longer allowed to be as she can't talk to him. - That's such a bummer. - So basically after marrying James, her life and her entire world changed overnight. She was once this lively young woman. But now in James's life and everyone in his life saw her as a nuisance, saw her as immoral, unstable, and untrustworthy. But despite all of this Florence tried her best to be and conform to what everyone wanted her to be. - That's so bad for her. - Me too. And also life at their house, which was called Battle Grace House. It was very lonely. Florence's days revolved around supervising the staff, managing the house, maintaining the social calendar, caring for the kids, and all while basically being silenced by everyone around her and forced to conform. So her life very quickly became one of those slow, simmering tension and growing sense of isolation. - Also the staff at the house didn't like her either. It's like everyone in the world was poisoned. - That did not like her. - Which I almost feel like did James like it that way, because then she only had him. - She stifled her true self to play the part of respectable wife. She attended social events. She quickly learned the proper way to dress, talk, and socialize in her husband's social circles. But this was still not enough, and there was so much growing tension in her marriage. - And I can also relate to this from personal experience. When you have to self-abandon that much, it doesn't just go away. That resentment grows and grows, and eventually it's gonna come out in some way. - Yeah, and so maybe that was part of the, what people tried to present. Did she snap and poison him, right? So now that's just issues of her social life, but let's talk about the issues in their actual marriage. While Florence was expected to shut up, manage the house and basically look pretty. Her husband, James, was off having multiple affairs with numerous women. Numerous. On top of that, James's moods were unpredictable, and then in 1885 the couple started having some serious financial problems. James's cotton business wasn't making the kind of profits he had hoped for. And whenever Florence would try to be like, let's cut costs on other things, like move to a smaller home, or whatnot. James was like, no, no, no, no, no. We have to keep living our luxurious lifestyle, because I think in his opinion, it was more important how other people viewed you, like if people viewed your family as well off, and financially stable, the more money they would be willing to put into your business. Which I understand a little bit. Yeah. But not to the point where you're literally losing all your money. I feel like this is kind of the beginning of a lot of stories where it's like the men go on to kill their whole family, because they got in so much financial trouble that they couldn't get out. Do you watch White Lotus? I haven't watched the most recent season. So good. The wife is basically saying something about how she, her life is not worth living unless she's rich. And meanwhile, the dad is dealing with the fact that he lost all their money. Oh my God. Secretly, he hasn't told anyone. Yeah. Because James wouldn't listen to her, and James now, instead of cutting back their costs, would borrow money from basically anyone who would give them money. Florence was like, you know what? I'm not gonna follow the rules either. So Florence starts to spend money kind of recklessly, but like good for her if her husband's gonna do it, why shouldn't she? A lot of people have shopping addictions, yeah, but hers wasn't necessarily a shopping addiction. Well, it starts with shopping for the latest fashions where I'm the most beautiful jewelry, having the most pristine decor in China for their home. And it also became insane amounts of money at the horse track, which I loved that she was just betting on horses. And I want so badly for her to be this person who had such good intuition to need so much money at the horse races. But no, she actually was very unlucky. And very quickly, Florence piled up a massive amount of debt at the race track, all while keeping it a secret from her husband. Yeah, I feel like they at a point did have a relationship where they were just crossing paths and they didn't actually care about each other. Now, this could have been a terrible surprise and an issue that could have a massive riff in their marriage, as we can all imagine. And then in December of 1887, six years into their marriage, Florence discovered something that would level most women. She discovered that he had a long-term affair with another woman. And in truth, James was having affairs with several women at this time. And apparently, he had multiple children from these relationships. But at this point, she only knew of the one. Yes, this was probably devastating in some way to Florence, but she decided to use this as permission for her own misdeeds. Because if he could do it, she could do it too. And it wasn't like, oh, if he can have a bunch of affairs, I'm also going to have a bunch of affairs. It was more of like, well, I'm just going to do whatever I want with my life. Yeah, like keep gambling, buying nice things, like whatever. And so a less than a decade into their married life, James and Florence Maverick's relationship was more like a tit for tat of gandalous behavior and growing resentment. So it's like, James is doing that. Florence is doing that back and forth over and over. But I think there's a thing about unresolved issues. Like, they don't stay unresolved or stay hidden, buried beneath the surface forever. Over time, over and over, that resentment builds. And I think it might prove deadly to this marriage. And I think we mean literally. Oh, please, not that music. That music gives me nightmares from my childhood. Could we get something a little bit lighter, lighter music here? Are you a fan of true crime TV shows? And what about unsold mysteries? The show that jump started all of our love of true crime. I'm Ellen Marsh. And I'm Joey Taranto. And we host, I think, not a true crime comedy podcast covering some of the wildest stories from your favorite true crime campaign TV shows. All the way to unsold mysteries. Baby, you will laugh, you will cry. You'll think about true crime in a whole new way. And you'll also ask yourself, who gave these people mics? New episodes of, I think, not are released every Wednesday with bonus episodes out every Thursday on Patreon. And every Monday, you can listen to our true crime rundown, where we go over the top true crime headlines of the week. - So come and join us wherever you listen to your podcast. - James Maybrick should be out enjoying the warm sunshine. But instead, on this summer day in 1888, he's back in his doctor's office. It feels like he's been in and out of this place for months now. And that's because he basically has. Every day, James wakes up with a new problem. He's lethargic, he's winded, he has stomach problems, he complains of numb hands, headaches, a lowering sex drive, but let's go on. It is always something. And the symptoms might go away for a day, maybe two, but they always come back and worse than ever before. And today is no different. As James slumps in his chair, waiting to be seen by one of his physicians, Dr. Hopper, his body feels like it's on fire. His stomach aches, his hands feel like pins and needles. His head is throbbing like it might explode at any moment. But mentally, James is buzzing. He can't wait to talk to Dr. Hopper and to show him the package he just received from America. After what feels like an eternity, Dr. Hopper opens the examination room door and usheres James inside. It takes a while for James to get to his feet. His body feels ancient, every joint straining to move even an inch. And slowly, but surely, James enters the office. He sits down in front of Dr. Hopper's desk and he can tell that the doctor's worried about him after all James' face must have been white as a sheet from all the exertion of him walking in there, but that's no matter. Excitedly, James picks up the package he's brought in today and he sets it down. As he does so, the package jingles and clinks. Dr. Hopper raises an eyebrow. James chooses to ignore the doctor's reaction and he opens the parcel revealing the collection of bottles inside. He says, these medications will surely fix everything. One by one, James places each bottle on Dr. Hopper's desk. Hopper begins examining the contents, turning the bottles over and reading the list of ingredients. He picks up one called Feller's Solution, the main ingredient, potassium arsenic, also known as arsenic. I think we all know today that arsenic is a very dangerous poison. I'm gonna list the side effects that come from arsenic if you ingest it. It can cause loss of feeling in the arms and feet, nausea, sores, shortness of breath, and chest pain. And do you ever call how James could hardly walk into the office of his doctor? And he had a lot of tummy problems. And taking it at a strong enough dose, it will kill you. But it was used often and in a lot of things back in the 19th century. Like we said, paint, fabric, all sorts of household products. And there were a lot of over the counter and prescription drugs that included arsenic because it was like the antibiotic before real antibiotics really existed. Dr. Hopper had prescribed multiple things to James that included arsenic in it. All right, so like why would James have any hesitation and taking more of it? Or like getting a different version of it for America? Like, oh, he said that this will help me. Let me get a different thing. Maybe this is the brand. This is the type that will help me. That will help me. But I think in this moment, or there was a period of time where he was treating James, the doctor Hopper was like, "Oh, I should maybe be concerned." Because James is now bringing things back from America. He's seeking out other doctors, taking more than he probably was prescribed by Dr. Hopper. So he's warning delicately, James. But ultimately he couldn't make James do anything. The James arsenic felt like a cure all more than something that could really be dangerous. And he began to rely on arsenic medicines even more. Especially because S's other problem spiraled like his finances and his relationship with Florence. James fixated even more and more on his health problems. Like, this is the one thing that maybe he can control, right? He can get a grip on. And the more he brought new untested pills and liquids that promised to help him stay healthy, the more it was becoming a bigger problem. During this time, the medical field was full of untested, unproven cures for any type of ailment that a person might have. For someone like James, who was endlessly preoccupied with his health, there was just like an endless stream of phonycurels that claimed have all of the health properties, which still exists today. Yes, very true. But he was definitely the victim of every TikTok ad. - Oh, first time. - Basically who he is. Yeah, yeah. So if there was an atomic that claimed to protect him from say indigestion, then he was gonna take it. Florence took note of this. She was seeing how obsessive her husband was being and their medicine cabinet quickly became overrun with bottles of all shapes and sizes, each one promising a solution to a totally different physical problem. And it was really hard for her to know exactly what was inside of the bottles because some did list some of the ingredients, but a lot of them didn't. It just was the bottle and gave kind of like a vague cure. - Which makes me also just think that James was going to his medicine cabinet and not even looking at what bottle he was taking, but just like taking swigs of everything. - Yeah, so disturbing. But even if Florence didn't know for sure what her husband was taking, she did know that he had a specific love for arsenic because to him arsenic was the cure all. - This part is crazy. - He even bragged about taking poisons to anyone who would listen, unreal. And if they voiced any concerns about what James was doing, he would just change the subject. - He was outwardly boasting to his friends, to people of society that he was poisoning himself. Keep that in mind. Also do the doctors. - Everyone. - Everyone knew. - Everyone knew what this is. - Yes. - Which is why it's really upsetting when it ends up happening. - Yeah. - So to him, his health was the greatest concern in his life and something that only he could manage properly. But to Florence, her husband's behavior was extremely concerning to say at least. - Well, especially because taking all these medicines, we're having an effect on James' personality. He already is a moody grump, but now he's becoming way more unpredictable and Florence was concerned. Keep in mind Florence is not in a happy marriage whatsoever, but she's concerned. about James so much so that she goes to Dr. Hopper and she's like, "Hey, I'm concerned about James and everything that he's taking." Yeah. Again, another clue that perhaps she didn't kill him. Right. So she tells Dr. Hopper about her concerns, basically, like, tells everything about how many medicines he's taking and that his personality seemed to be changing a lot and that he, his health itself was not getting better and she was even worried she truly told Dr. Hopper that she was worried that all of this experimentation would hurt James potentially even kill him. She expresses that concern to a medical professional. Well, but lucky for her, he actually takes her seriously. Yes. So Dr. Hopper, he's like, this sounds terrible. I will promise you that I'm going to go pay your home a visit. I'm going to look in the medicine cabinet myself and he did and what he found absolutely shocked him because in addition to a host of drugs that included arsenic, Dr. Hopper also found multiple bottles that included other dangerous ingredients. Some drugs contained Belidona, which is a toxic plant that could cause hallucinations, short-term memory loss and irritability and phosphoric acid, which in small doses, it's pretty harmless, but if you take a lot of it, it can damage your digestive tract. So, which are all the symptoms that James is daily complaining about? He's poisoning himself from every angle. So this pharmacy, homemade pharmacy, is very, very concerning to Dr. Hopper like to the point where I imagine Dr. Hopper is like, I personally, as a medical professional, he didn't say this, but I'm just imagining, have never even seen a cabinet this bowl of tinctures. It feels like I don't know that they did this back then, but like now there's certain times where like if people are being really reckless with their health, like sometimes doctors will make you sign something saying like, if you do this again, I don't treat you or like I'll never, I'll never care for you in this way. That's basically what happens. So Dr. Hopper tries to confront James about it again, but it doesn't go well. And James is like, all good, homie. I've got six other doctors on speed dial. Oh, I'm going to. I'm going to shift it in from America. Yeah, I'm going to go to someone else who doesn't ask up unto questions. So now, was Dr. Hopper out of the picture? Florence is even more isolated than ever before, and not only is her husband increasingly difficult to be around, but now she does not have anyone left to confide in about it. He has an extremely short temper. He's snapped at her before in a moment's notice. On top of this, money is still really tight, and James is also unfaithful. And this is not to say that Florence was perfect, but she had her own vices too, which we'll get to. But at this point, Florence and James are in a loveless marriage. The tensions are very, very high and continuing to rise. And this new problem of like the health issues is impossible, to ignore because the vice is dangerous. Throughout the rest of the year, and well into 1889, James Maeper continued adding to his collection of potions and powders and pills and tonics. And as he did, his condition only got worse. Somehow, he didn't make the connection there. He had near constant headaches. He regularly lost feeling in his feet and in his hands, and he complained of constant abdominal troubles. All side effects of arsenic. It's just so crazy. So as James's condition worsened, it only further convinced Florence of one terrifying thought that without knowing it, James was killing himself. So in March of 1889, this is her second attempt to try to prevent James from killing him. She's trying to save him. Yes. She goes to the family doctor and tries to talk to him, hoping that this doctor would be a similar and sympathetic as Dr. Hopper was and hopefully try to talk sense into James. But this family physician waves it off. Doesn't care. Doesn't want to listen to a lonely little housewife and her concerns. He waves away Florence's fear. Like James is not going to die. And apparently the doctor tells Florence. But if James does die, at least you get to say that you did warn a doctor saying you were concerned. That's super helpful, man. Super helpful. So basically the doctor, like it's slightly morbid and misguided, but that it was a jockey throughout to maybe calm her. It's ironic. It is ironic. Joke. Yeah, especially because it's like with all of that, she still didn't get justice. Justice? Justice. Because two months after this encounter with the family physician, James Maybrick would in fact die. But by then, nobody would think that his death was an accidental self-poisoning. Everyone would turn on Florence, assuming that she murdered her husband. Something feels wrong at the Maybrick house tonight. The family's nurse made Alice Yapp tries to busy herself with her nightly duties. But there's no ignoring the argument happening down the hall. James and Florence have been fighting for basically their entire marriage. But on this spring night of 1889, the tension between Mr. and Mrs. Maybrick, it feels impossible to ignore. Alice has heard countless arguments like this over the last few years, but something feels worse this time. The pitch of their voices is more pointed, more violent. Without thinking, she lingers at the doorway to the nursery, craning her neck to hear better. Through the wall, she hears James scream out that the scandal will be all over town tomorrow and how he never thought it would come to this. Alice jumps back as the servant bell rings and one of the other maids comes to the door and is quietly lit inside. She presses her ear to the wall again and hears something about calling a cab for Florence. Alice's mind starts to race. What would the neighbors think seeing the lady of the house send away like this? So late at night. She doesn't think the Maybricks could tolerate any more gossip, certainly not after whatever happened at the race track today. Her thoughts are interrupted when the door to the master bedroom flies open and James and Florence emerge. They don't see Alice lingering there in the hall. But Alice sees them. As Florence gathers her skirts and rushes down the stairs, her tear-stained face tilts up for just a moment to catch the light. One of her eyes is red, the skin around it swollen and quickly forming a bruise. Alice doesn't know exactly what happened in that room. But one thing is certain, James had struck his wife. This is another part of the story that really just like irks me because everyone in the house is seeing how James is treating his wife. But everyone just cares about optics. But again, it's like, oh, well, she can't leave even though she was just hit because then people will gossip. Right. So this is a new development in their relationship. Yes, that James and Florence had been arguing for months. They had been unhappy for a very, very long time. But up until this point, apparently James had never laid a hand on his wife before. I don't know if I believe that because they wasn't a happy marriage. He was a cruel man. But I think because of the medicines he was taking, because of his unpredictability that came as a side effect of all these self medications, he was getting violent. Yeah. But Alice and the other maids do their best to calm the situation. Alice takes Florence upstairs while another maid goes and calms James down. Eventually, both James and Florence fall asleep under the same roof, although they did sleep in different rooms. I don't blame Florence. This felt very, very different and everyone in the house had seen it. So there's something about this fight that changed things permanently in the Maverick household. Both James and Florence knew that their marriage was absolutely falling apart. And the question left was, what do they do about it? In the 19th century, divorce was technically an option, but it was very scandalous. Men could divorce their wives for pretty much any reason they wanted, but the same was not true for women. A woman who divorced her husband basically doomed herself as a social outcast. And that's not all because if a woman left her husband before finalizing a formal divorce, she would lose the property that she and her husband had during their marriage. And if she had children, she would lose her children too. Crazy. Yeah. But waiting for a divorce to be finalized could take ages. In In Victorian England, there was only one court that handled divorce cases for the entire country. One. One. So the notion of ending this marriage formally was complicated. So they stayed married. James's temper got worse. He interrupted at a moment's notice. And so in response after this like fight that you painted beautifully, Florence would start disappearing for days at a time, leaving her children in the care of Alice in the North made. Keep in mind, we already may note of this earlier in the episode, Alice and the staff at the house already didn't like Florence. So now they're even more suspicious of her and disliking her more now that she's like leaving the house for days on end and leaving the children in her care in their care. They view her as unrefined, undeserving of her position. And this leads us to one of Florence's vices that we have withheld for some time because where you might ask was Florence running off to for these days on end. Can you you guys, so we'll get back to that in a minute. By the spring of 1889, James' health began to take a turn for the worse. His many strange symptoms were seen by the family doctor as proof that he did have chronic indigestion, rather than arsenic poisoning, which was pretty underwhelming of a diagnosis, given all the symptoms he was experiencing. But still, that's what the doctor decided. That's what he told James. And James was like, OK, well, now I need an entirely new regimen of all of these new medications to take. But James wasn't exactly one for restraint around meds, right? Glug, glug, glug. Glug, glug, glug. That's how I imagine he took his meditonics. Yeah. So now, on April 27, 1889, James Maybrick overdoses on his medication and sent his health into a newsdive. In a matter of a few hours, he starts vomiting. He loses feeling in his legs and is bedridden. And despite the issues in the marriage, Florence returns home and becomes a doting wife to take care of her husband. She and a rotating list of doctors tend to James day and night. But then this is where things really take a turn and not in Florence's favor. Right. So James is bedridden. And we know for a fact that James had taken too much of his medication. Fact. Fact. Fact. Underline, bold, all caps fact. But that's not the narrative that other people wanted to follow. Nope. People around James were very concerned about his health, because one day he would be terribly ill, but then the next he'd be chipper and he'd be feeling better. But then his health would decline again. So it was like, what's going on? As his health began to get worse, some other bizarre moments took place around the house. One day, Florence prepared a bowl of gruel for her husband, which was considered somewhat strange, given that they had a cook. And basically, the cook made all the meals. So why was she suddenly doing this? Right, like Florence wasn't known to cook. Like she wasn't right. And she wasn't doting on her husband at this point, either. Well, now she is, because of his illness. But I understand where some of the suspicions came. So when Florence took the dish up to him, the cook allegedly noted that the color of the gruel looked darker than it normally did. Sure. She tasted it and noticed the flavor seemed slightly different, too. OK, well, maybe she added less salt. Well, also Florence isn't usually cooking, so yeah, she didn't follow your recipe to the tea. Right, she probably screwed up half of it. Right. The cook said James wouldn't like this dish, but let Florence take it up to James anyway. Another day, James stormed into the kitchen to complain that his food had too much ketchup in it, and he didn't like it. The cook, again, found this bizarre, because she hadn't changed anything about his meal. So that's a meal that Florence maybe took up to him, but didn't cook. Yeah. They're just trying to find anything. They're trying to find anything. Well, it's him. He's declining and taking poison. Around this time, Florence told the house staff that she wanted to limit the amount of food her husband was given, and from now on, she would be the one to dictate his diet. But nothing worked. James' legs felt so stiff he could barely walk on them. He was achy. He was sweaty. He had really intense stomach pain. And in the last ditch effort, Florence bought a bottle of beef stock, which at the time was called meat juice. How disgusting. Meat juice. I'm prepared a bowl of this meat juice for James, but he never drank any of it. The cigarette James got, the more that the house staff and James' family started to cast a suspicious eye on Florence. So remember the brother Michael and Edwin, especially Michael, who was not too keen on Florence. Well, they come to the neighbor's home, and immediately Michael was like, you're poisoning James. Florence, you are banished from the room. So Florence is not allowed to take care of her husband. whatsoever. And even without Florence in the room, James' health starts getting worse. And Florence now is like, oh, they think I'm responsible for this. But also, I'm starting to blame the doctors because family doctors are privy to all of this. They're in the rooms. Why didn't they say anything? Right. So she is adamant that she has not done anything. She's also trying to claim like, we all know. And James has bragged about the fact that he is poisoning himself. Like, I swear, I didn't do this, but it didn't matter. People turned against Florence. I mean, they turned against her from the day that James brought her back from the SS Baltic. Yeah. And on May 11, 1889, after weeks of being sick, James Maybrick died. And immediately suspicion of foul play spread through the town, everyone pointing their finger at Florence. Not a single doctor was able to identify what James Maybrick was sick with, which made the Maybrick brothers even more convinced that Florence had something to do with it. She was responsible. James's brother, Michael, had the body examined in hopes of finding out something conclusive. And the doctors did find something. They found traces of arsenic in his body. Traces. Keep in mind, traces. Yeah. And we know James was obviously taking a bunch of medicine that had arsenic in it. And the doctors knew this, too. But their thought was the amount that James had been prescribed could not have killed him. So this was not their arsenic. This was some mysterious arsenic. Let me say a couple of things right here. James had at least six doctors, all prescribing him various things. He was importing medicine from other countries. And James did not listen to the doctors. He was not taking the prescribed amount. He was taking whatever amount he wanted. Yeah, he was the flavor of the day. And it is also very, very important to say this right now. The amount of arsenic found in his blood was not enough to kill him. There is literally no evidence that he was poisoned with arsenic. Interesting. Unfortunately, it didn't matter. The resentment against Florence had reached a pinnacle. And when they got confirmation, the arsenic was in his body. They accused Florence of poisoning her husband. So after the autopsy, Florence Maybrook's feet was basically sealed. She was promptly put under house arrest and later officially charged with James's murder. And this trial is an absolute circus madness. It was a murder trial with zero evidence of an actual murder taking place. You're like, oh, well, why would there be a trial if there was no murder or evidence of a murder? And yet, we already know the verdict. She ends up getting sentenced and convicted to death for a murder that there is no evidence of a murder ever happened. Just wild, because it's like everyone's ignoring the doctors. Like, I'm sure doctors had to testify and say this wasn't enough. Like, I only prescribed this amount. He was abusing the arsenic. But what's in his body wasn't enough to kill him. Well, that does happen. So like the trial, there is a lot of back and forth. And there is a point in the trial where people start to be like, oh, we are seeing that maybe Florence is not guilty. But there is one thing that does ultimately convict her. And most of this evidence was witness testimony. But the thing that really, really was the nail in the coffin was a letter. - The letter, the evidence of the affair. So we briefly mentioned this. But Florence did have some vices of her own and we know James was having countless affairs. Had other children with other women. But God forbid Florence also do the same. And with one person. - Yeah, that makes her a calculate killer. What a horrible bitch. - Yeah, they said it literally. - Yeah, so remember how we said that the staff at the Maverick House did not like Florence. And when she would leave for a few days at a time they were like very suspicious and thought that this was terrible. Well, a couple days before James Maverick died, Alice Yap, one of the housemaids discovered a letter. - Alice Yap is also the one who witnessed Florence come out of the room with a bruise around her eye. - So the house staff know that James hit Florence. - I'm sure they know of the affairs. The gospel right now. - They know all of this. But for some reason every single one of the staff sides with James. They all have this like tainted view of Florence and so many of them actually testified against her. - And just trial upsetting, yeah. - And this part makes me so angry at Alice because so it's a spring day in 1889. James is in the midst of his decline. He's bedridden and Florence is tending to her husband. She's very busy. So she gives Alice an envelope. It is sealed. It is addressed. It is sealed. It is stamped. It's ready to go. She goes, "Hey, will you please go mail this letter for me?" But Alice, not liking Florence. She claims it dropped in a puddle of mud. But I 100% think Alice just wanted to read what was on that letter. So she made up this whole story about it falling into the mud. She had to take it out of the original postage like letter envelope, repackage it. And she just happened to see the contents of the letter as she was doing this. No, she was nosy. She wanted to know. - She read that letter. - Yeah. And she was shocked at what she read because inside in the letter was a declaration of love from Florence to another man. So for Alice, everything suddenly became clear. This was the final piece to the puzzle. Florence was having an affair. It was now trying to kill her husband to get him out of the picture. - And this letter was read in court in May of 1889 as key evidence of Florence's guilt. Of course, we can all scream that a love letter does not equal Florence May brick being a murderer. But back then, it didn't really matter because people thought she was guilty before the trial even happened. - Right, they hated her from day one. - Yeah. [BLANK_AUDIO] I want to talk about the letter for a second, because yes, Florence was having an affair, with a man named Alfred Briarly, and they, in the trial, read this letter out loud. And it said, "Dearst, since my return, I have been nursing all day and night. He is sick unto death. The doctors held a consultation yesterday, and now all depends on how long his strength will hold out." "Em has been delirious since Sunday, and I know now that he is perfectly ignorant of everything, even of the name of the street, and also that he has not been making any inquiry whatsoever." So, that line is suspicious. You need not therefore go abroad on this ground, dearst, but in any case, please don't leave England until I have seen you once again, signed in haste yours ever, Lori. "I mean, could it just be that he didn't know of her affair?" Right. Yeah, it's not necessary. Like, "Oh, he's none the wiser to me killing him." Right. But because that context is not fully there, and everyone was looking for the context of Florence being guilty, that's what they interpreted as. So upsetting. But if we put everything aside, about how we feel, about how people treated Florence and sort of the double standard, and everything else that exists here, it does. It does seem like a type of admission. So the jury did take this as an admission to guilt, and despite the lack of evidence that James was even poisoned or murdered whatsoever on July 31st, 1889, after just 38 minutes of deliberation. So basically, again, that the jury and everyone involved had already made their decision. They found Florence Maybrook guilty. She was sentenced to death, and her execution was set for August 23rd, 1889, but there is a silver lining. Though her execution is set for August 23rd, but on August 5th, 1889, just weeks before her scheduled execution, the Home Secretary ordered that the sentence of death be commuted to servitude for life. She wasn't killed. Yes. Basically, after the dust settled a bit, the government realized that they couldn't actually prove that it was poison that killed James, but they still maintained that Florence had poisoned him, so they basically just changed her resent. Even though they couldn't prove that poison is what killed James, is that not the most contradictory sentence? It does make any sense. She always claimed that she was innocent. In the end, she only served 15 years before being released, but the life that she returned to was a far cry from the one that she lived before she went to prison. She had no property, no community. She moved back to the US where she lived as a recluse. She had a few cats to keep her company, and she never saw her children again. That breaks my heart. I think the children, at first, were living with a family friend, and when Florence was sentenced, her one thing was, "Please do not let my children go live with Michael, the brother." But I think they were replaced with the brother, and so when she got let out, there was no way to find them. So upsetting. She died in 1941 at the age of 79 alone, and to this day we can't say for certain whether or not Florence did, or it did not poison James, but I feel very certain, we can't say for certain, but I feel certain. Yeah, and I feel like we can certainly say James was poisoning himself, and that Florence didn't have anything to do with it. But also if she did, I don't really blame her, I mean, yes, again, not condoning murder, but James wasn't a good guy. She wasn't in the room for the last bit, if she was poisoning him. She was bragging about poisoning himself. Right. When people are being poisoned and they're removed from their abuser, they start to suddenly and miraculously get better. Right. It is sad to me how Dr. Hopper did testify on Florence's behalf, like if she did warn me that was not enough, but then there's a family physician who made that really, really gruesome joke, morbid joke of like, well, if he does die, at least you can say you told a doctor. He didn't help. How did that help at all? But I also want to talk about James because he was really not a great guy. Not only is he having countless affairs, treating Florence like crap and poisoning himself, but this is like the most wild part of the story, and also like what the heck was happening in Victorian area, England, but James Maybrick was actually considered a suspect or the Jack the Ripper killings. What? That is shocking. Yeah, he confessed to them in a journal. This is tough because it was in 1992, 103 years after James died that a metal merchant named Michael Barrett was working on the Maybrick home and claimed he found a journal belonging to the Jack the Ripper because the author of the journal never identified himself, but it had confessions to all five of the brutal murders believed to be the work of the Ripper in 1888, which is the year before James Maybrick died. And he found this journal in the Maybrick home. So while it didn't say James Maybrick on the journal, it was found in the home. I guess my one thing is like he was so ill towards the end that I do wonder, but wait. Okay. So he felt horrible. It is weird that sometimes he'd have like spurts of feeling really great. What if whenever he was totally fine the next day, he still had all of those symptoms and he was still being poisoned and like poisoning himself, but he was on the high of the kill. It's very jackal and hide. He's taking all these poison, which are altering his entire being, his mental state. And like when this came out in 1992, Ripperologists all around the world are like, oh my gosh, James Maybrick is Jack the Ripper. I'm blown away. Yeah. Because the timelines do line up. The journal entries were dated from May 3rd, 1889, a little over a week before James died. So like people were like, oh, is this a deathbed confession penned by the hand of a guilty man so James Maybrick in his deathbed is like writing this journal and then hides the journal in the house that's not found for 103 years. Okay. And then I need to go back to everything about Jack the Ripper and understand like when the killings happened because they also spent some time in America. Like was there, and James Maybrick did, but I guess like before his time, I'm like wondering if like the dates and travel and stuff like all perfectly line up with. Well, here's the tough thing. So in 1995, so three years after finding the journal, Michael Barrett apparently signed an affidavit. Apparently, no, he did sign an affidavit saying that the diary was a forgery. But then almost immediately after releasing that, he's like, I'm kidding, I retract that statement. So then people, I would say that. Yeah, people don't understand it. I would he say that in the first place and then immediately take it back. So we don't have an answer. We don't have an answer to was James Maybrick, Jack the Ripper, it's a mystery. But we do know that there was a lot of injustice to Florence Maybrick. Even professionals in Laman in modern day have studied this trial and think the entire thing is just blasphemous. Yep. They were not trying Florence for murder because there was no evidence of murder. They were really just trying Florence for what was viewed as moral failings as a Victorian era wife. It breaks my heart. Yeah. And I like can say with my soul and belief, I want to say a 100% conviction that she is not guilty and did not poison her husband. But then I have to like leave some room for doubt because what if she was Jack the Ripper? That would be the plot. She disappeared for days at a time too. Yeah. I don't know. But so without any real way to know the truth, this story of Florence Maybrick does remain a mystery. To some, she was nothing more than a vengeful wife who was driven to murder after a miserable marriage left with no other means of escape. But for others, her story is so much more nuanced than that. Florence Maybrick was a complicated person, frivolous, spiteful, and wholly incompatible with her husband. Yes. Who had a whole long list of faults and vices. But a terrible marriage doesn't always lead to murder. James Maybrick was fixated on arsenic as a cure-all for his growing list of illnesses, both real and imagined. Also illnesses that were being created by the Poisons you was taking. Right. So was it his obsession with poison that drove him to the grave or did Florence help him along the way? The court said one thing, but we say otherwise. Yes. So what do you guys think? Yeah, we want to know. Mommy's, let us know what you believe. Thank you so much for listening. Wear your hosts Sabrina Deanna Roga and Karen Vienn. Join us next Tuesday for another peek inside Crimes of Passion. And if there are any cases that you would like us to cover, please let us know in the comments. Here at Crimes House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crimes House. And if you didn't like, don't tell us. Don't reach out. Don't reach out and move on with your life and listen to something else. But don't forget to rate, review and follow Crimes Up wherever you listen to podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. Bye, Mommy. Bay-Nay, Mommy's. Hi, I'm Connor Tomlinson. You might know me from Love on the Spectrum. Here is my thing and I have been waiting my whole life for a show like this one. And I'm Carter Roy. And this is what the fact. Every week, three facts, each one with a whole story behind it. The worst years anyone has ever lived through. The golden age of pirates, the movies that almost never got made, the discoveries that rewrote everything we thought we knew. Carter sets the scene, Connor brings the facts. The tangents and the genuine belief that this is the most interesting subject in the world. It is, the wildest stuff is real and the real stuff is wilder than you think. New episodes every Wednesday follow what the fact on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod. I don't want to take a quick moment to tell you about the unbelievable. A new podcast from the history channel and rewind studios. Adapted from the hit TV show, every episode opens a cabinet of curiosities to uncover the strangest but true stories in human history, then digs into the historical record to show you exactly how and why they happened. Strange people, odd places, the killer, events. When it comes to history, the truth is always more unbelievable than you think. Follow the unbelievable on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or ever-you-listen-to-podcasts. Looking for your next podcast? Check out What the Fact. 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