PASSION: Groomed, Gaslit, and Pushed to Kill

Hi everyone, before today's episode, we want to tell you about What the Fact. It's a new show from Conor Tomlinson, who you know from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, and Carter Roy from Murder, True Crime Stories. Every week they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Conor's infectious energy will make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on Earth. Follow What the Fact, wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact on. This is Crime House. Welcome back, Mommy's. Shall we play another game of Red Flag, Green Flag? Yes, I speak for all of us, and I say yes, let's play. Let's play. Let us play. The case we're covering today is chock-full, unfortunately, of moments that work perfectly for this game. Today, we are covering the story of Susan Polk, a woman who married her own therapist, and then killed him, which, you know, that sentence in and of itself, kind of a red flag, right? Lots of them in there. Lots. Yeah, so I'll go first in the game. Red Flag or Green Flag? Mm-hmm. They're a great listener, and are always there for you at your lowest. But also, because they're your therapist, red flag or green flag. So out of context of this case, green flag, you want your therapist always be there for you. Right. Because we haven't defined that it was romantic yet. Right. Major red flag given the context of this case. Sure. Your spouse threatens to have you involuntarily committed during arguments, stating it is for your own good. Red flag. Major. Red flag. Yeah. Like, I want like a giant flag. Like, I feel like right now we're just waving little tiny flags. I feel like we need like a huge, massive, this episode's a walking red flag. Yeah. And unfortunately, these were real life scenarios that Susan Polk had to live with every day. According to Susan, her husband Felix made her feel crazy for their entire marriage, but the thing is, it started way before that. Because before Felix was her husband, he was also her therapist. And he was also her therapist when Susan was 15 years old. Yeah. For most of Susan's life, Felix had complete control over her mental well-being. That is, until October 13th, 2002, when Susan asked herself, was it better to be called crazy or labeled a killer? Welcome to Crimes of Passion, a crime house original powered by Pave Studios, where your hosts Sabrina Deanna-Roga and Corinne Vienn. Every Tuesday, we're exploring a different corner of the true crime universe, examining cases that left a permanent impact on society. This season, we're stepping into the world of romance, where love turns to obsession, where logic slips away, and raw emotion pushes people past the point of return. If you're loving Crimes of, please follow rate and review us wherever you listen. It helps us build this community, and we love hearing from you. To get early access and ad-free listening, subscribe to the crime house plus community on Apple podcasts. You can also catch us on YouTube, where we include visuals that bring every case to life. Today, we're talking about Susan Polk, who, as a teen, was referred to Dr. Felix Polk for anxiety. Despite the ethical issues, their relationship turned romantic, and a decade later, Susan became his wife. In 20 years after that, Susan would also become his murderer. A warning before we begin. This episode contains a lot of potentially triggering content, including descriptions of mental illness, domestic violence, malastation, grooming, emotional abuse, murder or suicide, and the endangerment of children. And also, we want to start off by saying that there is no debate as to what happened here. Susan Polk definitely did kill her husband. But if you think that means this case is simple, think again because it is far, far from that. This story lives in the gray where there are power imbalances, boundaries that are severely blurred and a relationship that is far beyond inappropriate. Right. And so the question we're asking today, like you were saying, was not did Susan kill Felix because we know she did. The question is, how did she and Felix end up here? And what decades of control, grooming, and emotional damage can do to a person over time? Yeah. I had briefly heard of this case prior to this episode, but I did not know the details and I wish it didn't exist. Yeah. Me too. It's very sad in the end. Yeah. But you do see this come up, I feel like, in media or just like in television and movies, like this sort of scenario is portrayed, and it's often like a horror movie where it's, you're made to feel like the killer is the scary person. But are they really the monster in the movie? Are they really? So when Susan first met Felix Polk, she was 15 years old. She was anxious. She was overwhelmed. She was looking for help. Yeah. And Felix wasn't just someone to talk to. He was her therapist. The one that she would confide in, trusted with her fears, her thoughts, her inner world. And at first, that felt like safety. Felix was there for the hard moments and he knew her better than anyone else because that was literally his job, but a relationship that starts in the therapist's office should never progress beyond it, but unfortunately in this case, it did. But that power imbalance doesn't just magically reset because you call it marriage. No. That imbalance, it follows you. And over time, affection blurred into manipulation. Safety turned into fear. And that mix, power, dependency and resentment would eventually explode into something deadly. A woman once revived a fall for more than two miles up because she crashed landed on a nest of furious fire ants. A 13th century pope once condemned black cats as the servants of Satan. A lumberjack once revived near decapitation by his own chainsaw. These aren't tall tales. They aren't urban legends. They're real events. I want to take a quick moment to tell you about the unbelievable. A new podcast from the History Channel and Rewind Studios, adapted from the hit TV show. Every episode opens a cabinet of curiosities to uncover the strangest but true stories in human history, then digs into the historical record to show you exactly how and why they happened. Strange people, odd places, peculiar events. When it comes to history, the truth is always more unbelievable than you think. Follow the unbelievable on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Ever You Listen to Podcasts. The courtroom goes quiet as 19-year-old Gabriel Pope walks to the witness stand. He doesn't look angry, he doesn't look nervous, he looks tired. The long, brutal days of the trial have worn him down just like anyone else. Gabriel has been sitting in the room for weeks now, listening to strangers talk about his family like it's a puzzle that they're going to try to solve. When in reality, it is the worst thing that has ever happened to him. He's tried to move on, he hates reliving it, but this trial has forced his hand. For nearly four years now, he's been in and out of courts, surrounded by nameless men and suits, heard countless testimonies and faced blinding camera flashes. Today, it's finally his turn to speak. One of the nameless men and suits asks Gabriel to solemnly swear to tell the truth. He does what is asked of him and then the questions begin. And it's in this moment that something becomes painfully clear. This isn't just a murder trial. This is a son being asked to testify against his own mother. Gabriel answers with care, like every word expelled is a piece of him lost. He doesn't understand how he got here. How does a family end up in this scenario? How does a child grow up to testify against his own mother? At the murder trial of his own father? Oh, so sad. I can't even fathom this moment for a child. I mean, let alone your father as murder, but now you have to stand up in court to testify against your mother. Yeah. That's a whole other element of this case that we will talk about. But I too had the same questions. How does a family end up here? How do they get here? So what better way to answer that than from the beginning? Let's do it. Okay. So unfortunately, a lot of Susan's upbringing is pretty vague, but here is what we do now. Susan Polk was born, Susan Louise Samuels in 1957. She grew up in Northern California, and sometime in her early teens, Susan's parents got divorced. And as many children of divorce, this deeply impacted Susan. But to the point where it caused a lot of anxiety, panic attacks, and she didn't have the tools or knowledge of how to process it and cope with these feelings, which led to her becoming seen as a troubled child, and she was acting out in school and wasn't behaving as well. well and performing as well in school. So when she was 15, her school recommended that Susan's parents seek professional help for Susan because this once bright cheerful young girl her light was dimming. And this is how 15 year old Susan would meet her future husband Felix Polk. Yeah. Let's just take a moment. Let's reiterate that for anyone who maybe spaced out in the past 30 seconds 15 year old Susan was about to meet her future husband because she needed to seek help from a therapist to help manage her anxiety. So really digging in here, her meet cute with her future husband was not what you would think of out of the bar. Well, it shouldn't be out of the bar. She's 15. Like at her meet you, you know, it's not on it's not on hand. It's not my space back in our age appropriate drink at a bar. No. Her meet cute happens in her therapist office because her meet cute is her therapist. Like she is entering a relationship with her therapist, a 15 year old girl in an adult man. Yeah. I feel like we should just keep reiterating it. But anyway, it's 1972, Susan is 15 years old struggling with anxiety and her mother sends Susan to a child psychotherapist named Dr. Felix Polk. Why don't you tell everyone, Corinne, how old Dr. Felix Polk was? 42. 42. Yeah. 27 years older than the teenager Susan. Yeah. This is going to be really icky. But before it got icky, Dr. Felix Polk was on the outside from her own else's perspective, a very respectable and well established doctor in his field. Yet along this of clients was wealthy, married with adult children, and was well versed in helping patients, and especially adolescent patients with anxiety. So he really did seem like the perfect therapist for young Susan, but that was far from the truth. Now, it's not totally clear what happened in their sessions or when things shifted, or when things shifted from the professional, client relationship to the romantic relationship, but sources do claim it didn't take very long. And the patient therapist relationship became romantic, even sexual pretty quickly. Susan was still very much a teenager, and Felix was beyond being her therapist. He was in a position of power. He was in his 40s and was married with children. Yeah. This is not romance. This is statutory rape. She was underage. She was vulnerable. She was seeking help for her mental health, and she saw Felix, her therapist, as someone who cared for her, who understood her, who wanted the best for her, and he totally took advantage of the situation and his power over her. Like we said, this episode is a walking red flag. Yeah. I feel like we were just going to keep saying the same things that are online. Oh my gosh. She was way too young. This is so messed up. Because it's infuriating. Yes. It feels like there should have been so many checks and balances to prevent this from happening, which naturally led me to look up the laws at this time. So in 1972, in California, the age of consent was 18 years old. So even with consent, this is statutory rape. No question about it. I know today it is illegal to have a relationship as a therapist with your client. It is something that you could get your license revoked. It is unethical, but I was curious what the rules and laws were in 1972. Unfortunately, that law did not exist back then. Given how much was going on in the world of psychology, I would have thought that that would have been something. Right. Well, I think, do we know when it came into effect? I hope it wasn't like 10 years ago. I didn't look up the date, but now it is a law. But in 1972, that wasn't. But all mental health professionals knew this was unethical. Everyone knew it was unethical. I almost feel like it was one of those things that felt like it didn't need to be a law because it was an unspoken thing that everyone knows. Right. It's kind of like the hot coffee thing where- Don't drink it, scolding hot coffee. You should know that, but they didn't put the sleeve on the coffee until someone burnt themselves with the hot coffee and sued McDonald's, I think it was for millions of dollars. Okay. But in defense of the McDonald's woman, the coffee was actually like way too hot. It was, yeah. It was, she shouldn't have been served. That coffee should be handed to you. Within a couple minutes, you should be able to take a step and go, "Oh, that's a little too hot for me without damaging your insides and ripping your flesh off of your skin." So that was McDonald's fault, yes, but a loss. If it, let's do a whole new episode of all about the McDonald's lawsuit, actually we should do that in the future. Yes. This did not exist in 1972, but people did know. Inherently, there is an unequal relationship dynamic here at play. A therapist has power. A patient discloses their most vulnerable self with a therapist, but the therapist does not exchange, return that in the favor. It's not a tit for tat relationship, it is therapist has the power and control, patient is the patient. Is the patient? Yeah, patient is the patient, but like kind of like what you were saying with it being this unspoken role, it's also not something that no one ever saw, right? This is something that therapists do experience. Even today. Yeah, yeah. It's called transference. The person who is in therapy starts to kind of unconsciously redirect some of their emotions and some of the things about their important relationships onto their therapist and sometimes I can manifest with admiration and romance feeling like you're in love with your therapist. Right, because it's this feeling of like, wow, this person understands me better than anyone ever has before. And I imagine for Susan, who's having a hard time coping with her parents' divorce and her parents are struggling to hold space for her. She doesn't know how to talk about her emotions. Her parents don't understand her. She's desperately seeking, I mean, I think of myself at 15, like you just want to be loved and taken care of and she's desperately seeking someone to make her feel validated. Yeah. Yeah, she becomes dependent on him to feel, okay, yeah, exactly. And no, we were not inside of this session. So we don't know exactly how things went down, but Felix absolutely knew what he was doing. He fed Susan's feelings with his own romantic and sexual advances, which was inappropriate on its own before you even factor in that she's a minor. He was also married with kids. It's disgusting. It's so gross. It also really does make me wonder how many patients Felix did this with, beyond suicide. Yeah. Like, I don't think this is the only time it happened. We don't know that. We don't know that. Do you watch the show? Nobody wants this. Yeah. Have you, are you up to date? Yeah. Okay. Well, there is one of the characters in it has a relationship with a therapist thinks that she's special, realizes it's a pattern for him. And yeah, I really think that granted again, this is like my own take on this. There's no other information to back it up, but I really do believe Felix knew what he was doing. He was unhappy in his marriage and was violating so many boundaries. He also apparently confided in Susan, 15 year old Susan, who is his patient. He starts confiding in and saying, like, oh, my relationship's not great. Like I'm unhappy. And he keeps harping on this fact that Susan is so special that she's older than her years and so wise, so he's grooming her exactly. And he also established himself as the only person who understood her, the only person who could make her feel safe isolating her. And the only person who could help her, and then he made her feel special. He made her think that he needed her as well, reinforcing dependency and emotional bonding, yeah, grooming her. This kind of reminding me of the Talha blonde case a little bit, too, which is like the way that the conversations went and just building that dependency and like, oh, we have to be together because we have this damage of our own, the only the other person can fix. It's trauma-monding. But one person doesn't actually have the trauma and they're just manipulating the other person. It also makes me so mad because I'm the biggest advocate for therapy. Like even this case is like, this is proof to me that people need to heal themselves and work on themselves. But it's also an example that you can't really always trust that they're, yeah, which is important to change your therapist if you feel like you don't have the right fit. But it's also like it's doubling down on that. It's like just also proving how vulnerable kids are. Like you're bringing one hundred child to this therapist and you're trusting that they're helping your child with their anxiety, which is exactly what Susan's mom thought. However, it did not take long for Susan's mom to figure out that there was something not right going on and the boundaries were crossed, but you're like, okay, yes, like an adult who is responsible. The mommy is. You would be. Go, mommy's. So Susan's mom finds out she's absolutely horrified, frightfully so. She called Felix the predator. She knew the quote unquote relationship was extremely unhealthy. She confronted Felix privately urging him to end the relationship and then she pulled Susan away from him, terminating the treatment for her entirely. And even though Felix did back off at least for a little while, the damage had been done and Susan was just so impressionable at this time and her being forced to stop see Felix. She was just like a fully convinced that she actually should be with him. She was in love with Felix Volk and this was her mom coming between her and her one true love. Right. Unfortunately, her mom did not file any legal case or go to the police about this because it was rape. But despite pulling her from the sessions, the damage I've had done, Susan was fully in love with him and that emotional bond didn't disappear. And again, I don't know the timeline logistics, but Susan kept seeing Felix, just not on a professional basis. Like, I think he would pick her up from school. Oh, I hate that. 15, because then you're like, how many more people could try to intervene? I know. And also Felix is still married. This romantic relationship continues. But Susan does graduate high school. She goes to college and she does eventually seek a new therapist, which I'm glad. And Susan confides in this new therapist about her relationship with Felix, which is still ongoing, mind you. And he's still married with children. And this new therapist is like, uh, this is not okay. Like, this is super dangerous. What do you mean you're telling me your therapist is in love with you and you're in love with your therapist? So she breaks confidentiality and she contacts Felix's wife to tell her about the relationship, which I kind of love the pettiness of this. But I also wish she contacted the police. Yeah. But she tells Felix's wife of this relationship that he has been having with this teenager, Susan. And after learning of the affair, Felix's wife files for divorce, which only means that Felix and Susan don't have to hide their relationship anymore, right? They're not sneaking around. It's 1982 now. It's 10 years after meeting Felix for the first time in his therapist office. And a now 50 year old Felix marries 25 year old Susan. It breaks my heart because I also think about all of these obstacles that are happening. Like Susan's mom pulls her out of therapy or as Susan probably perceives them as obstacles. But she's like, you don't understand. Like, I'm in love with him. She's so dependent on me. Yeah. She was 15. It is tough because it's like, she's clearly the victim here. And she's been so emotionally manipulated. And it's like, you see it in other cases too. I can't remember if it's from Russia or something, but there was a teenage couple that were, they're both teenagers, but like the one guy through acid on his girlfriend, I think after like a breakup and she had really severe damage to her face. Why does he have acid sitting around? Some sort of chemical or something. You know, 'cause it was like, well, if I can't have you, no one can. But then she forgives them and they get married. And it's just like that sort of dynamic and that relationship, it's abuse. Unfortunately, it's seen a lot where it's like, no matter what anyone else tells you, you're like, no, you don't know my relationship. Everyone else is wrong. I'm right. No one knows when I'm feeling. Yeah. No, and that's gonna come up a lot in this episode, like the cycle of abuse. But I don't condone kidnapping your own child or imprisoning them, but I do wish in this scenario, like I could be Susan's mom and just like take 15 year old her shaker and just like trapper in the face. Shake your child and trapper in the basement and keep her away from Felix. But it is tough 'cause it's like, you know, now she's 25, so there's not much you can do 'cause she's an adult, but for so much of that, she was under, well, not a ton of it, but for three years of it, she was under age. And so there were so many times where it's like, yeah, adults had known what was happening. And while maybe they couldn't have prevented Susan from still feeling that way, they could have done things to lock him up to get his license revoked. Yeah. The divorce, like how did that not come up in the divorce? Like no one reported it, lawyers involved. But it was just so many failures, I feel like. Felix does have money. He's doing well for himself. He's a respected type of like community. No, yeah. Much money where you're buying off people like this. I feel like he did have power and it worked in his favor. So either way, now 25 year old Susan marries Felix and now that they're married, the dynamics don't just like magically reset. If anything, that power and balance is like very much still in place and I think Felix wanted it, like that's in his favor. He wanted that to remain in place. But then they began a family of their own. And over the next few years, Susan gave birth to three children, all of them boys, Adam, Eli, and then the youngest Gabriel. This is so dark for me to say, but I'm glad that he had boys. I know. Oh, I hate that. But yes. Susan took the role of a stay-at-home mother. She raised her three sons while Felix continued to practice as a therapist, still seeing adolescence. Yep, young girls. Mm-hmm. And soon Felix and Susan felt like they needed more space. And so Felix, like you were saying, he did have the sizable amount of money. He bought them a mansion, which was kind of less of a mansion and more like a compound. They're like multiple houses, a pool, like it was massive. Yeah. How do you get that much from being a therapist? Should we change our courage? We'll be the adolescent therapist. We'll keep everyone safe. So he bought a compound for the two of them in a wealthy town of Arunda. And there, Susan and Felix raised their children with every privilege that their income could afford. So all three boys went to private school. They all drove luxury cars. They were just very materially wealthy and flush their money around. But behind closed doors, that veneer of a perfect life, let's start to chip away at the edges. Oh, so I picture them at family dinners. Or just like growing up, I remember asking my parents, like how did you guys meet? Like that's a natural question you ask your parents. Like how did they answer that? Oh my God. And when friends and their social setings-- If they don't think it's wrong, they probably just said it. But I don't think they said that they met in the therapist office. Like I think they knew it was wrong. How did your parents meet? College. College. My dad had a broken arm. My mom was-- it was her first college party. She was at his fraternity house. He was a sophomore. She was a freshman. That's cute. He walked up with a broken arm and said, your freshman, aren't you? Real man. But a normal me, cute. An age appropriate. Yeah. Anyway. So we know that there is a very clear power in balance here. I feel like this is the one with control. Susan's mental health was under his care. And as they settled into their new roles as a husband and wife and mom and dad, that power play reared at the ugly head once again. So now, all those years later, Susan was still very much under-feel like this control. And tensions were really starting to rise between the not so happy couple. And it wouldn't take long for something or someone to snap. [MUSIC PLAYING] We all experience petty grievances in life. A bachelor at party that resulted in a runaway bridesmaid. A neighbor who has trained their dog to poo in your yard. An ex-friend who writes a semi-autobiographical book about your friend group and then kills off your character. Maybe these aren't completely relatable, but they are all petty crimes we've investigated on our podcast. I'm Griff, your average biracial farm-raised queer actor and retired model who's living and looking for love and Los Angeles. I'm Kira, I'm an SNL writer, a movie writer, a comedian, and I'm the only person pettyer than Griff. Petty crimes is a true crime comedy podcast that exclusively investigates non-crimes, meaning real-life, low stakes, petty drama that's submitted each week by our listeners and ruled on by us. Some weeks, we're joined by comedian friends like Ego Wodum, Gianmarco Saraci, Chloe Feynman, Sarah Sherman, Jeremy Cole Hayne, Carl Tarte, Lacey Mosley. But most of the time, you're just stuck with us. If you're the type that tells your boyfriend to sh-- So you can ease drop on the T-Unfolding at the table next to you, you've found your people. Subscribe to Petty Crimes, wherever you get your podcasts. It feels like the fight always starts at the dinner table. Susan Polk sits across from her husband or face beat red. Tears are running down her cheeks. Felix looks back at her. His eyes pomeused, expectant, as if he's waiting for her to give in, like she always does. Ely sits between his two brothers, unsure where to look. This isn't the first time that their mom is cried through dinner. And at this point, they've lost count of how many times. It always starts the same way, though. Their mother suddenly accusing their father of something in the middle of oatmeal. And it's always without mourning. And tonight's accusation is a bit of a doozy. Susan is shouting now, lashing out at Felix, insisting that she knows what he's been doing, and that he doesn't trust her. He's paranoid. And finally, she makes accusation. That Felix has hired someone to follow her all over town. She said that she has seen the same car over and over again trailing her. Eli looks to his brother as Adam and Gabriel, and then to his father waiting for him to react. But he doesn't. As Susan shouts at him, Felix wipes his mouth with a cloth napkin, folds it, and sets it back down on his lap. He says nothing. Without their dad willing to take the heat, Eli tries to speak up. He and his older brother, Adam, are usually the ones to take charge in moments like this. Their little brother, Gabriel, isn't much help. He's only 14. He still really idolizes their mother, and he always takes her side, even when she's making wild accusations like this one. Eli, though, is older, and just like his father, he is getting tired of these antics. Stearnly, Eli tells his mom that what she's saying, it just simply could not be true. Nobody is following her. Dad is not paranoid. If anything, she is the one that sounds kind of crazy. Eli instantly regrets using that word. And sure enough, it triggers her. She begins yelling once again. She's not crazy. She knows what she saw. She's being gaslit by her whole family. Why don't they believe her? And Eli wants to disappear. But fortunately, his father steps in to back him up. He says, "Elay has a point." Susan does sound crazy. Felix continues, "Maybe she's so crazy that she needs serious help. The kind of help that only comes from inpatient care. Maybe someone should put her away for good. Maybe it should be him." That whole scenario, it's also like triggering for me because my family is nowhere near this. Thank goodness, but they are also not a family to model anything after like my biggest goal in life is to have a family that's nothing like my upbringing was like, but my parents just have these major fights around the table like this. To the point where my mom would get up from the table and like bawling her eyes out and my dad would be like, "She's just being dramatic." And I would gut up and go take care of my mom because I was like, "This is miserable." Into witness that as a child and feel responsible for anyone else's emotions or to just hide your own fear in that moment. So sad. And this is just an example of one of the many arguments that persisted throughout the Polk Home. So by the year 2000, this was constantly happening and then they got worse into 2001. As Susan's sons would later recall, it was hard to exactly know who was the instigator between Susan and Felix and even now the boys are divided, which makes me so sad. But regardless of who started it, one thing was very, very clear. It's very clear to us too. Their marriage was not in a healthy place. It was tumultuous. And it was a tumultuous place for these kids to grow up in because now they're also in this power imbalance where their dad is so strong-willed and putting the mom down in front of all of them. Well, and he also knows how to manipulate people. Everyone. Yeah. He's basically been practicing that in his own practice for years. For years. Right. But it's sad because instead of seeing both of their parents as like equals in a parent child dynamic, there should be a power imbalance. Like that is healthy. Parents should have more power over their children because that's you're raising them. But Felix is establishing that actually their mom is lesser than all of them. So Susan is just like truly being made to feel crazy. Right. There's a lot of internal disruption. And then also like I imagine like one kid might start to side with the dad and mistreat the mom. And then there's like the other kid who has to take care of the mom. Yeah. But like the two oldest boys sided with Felix almost all the time. Gabriel, the one that said child and the youngest, he was the one that seemed to have the most empathy for his mom. That dynamic does change. And we'll talk about like at the end how people feel today. And there's a mixed bag. So things in this home and amongst the family, they're only getting worse. According to Felix's friends, the growing conflict only made him become colder towards his wife. He treated her outbursts and unfounded accusations as kind of like a study and mental illness, which is kind of messed up that he's like treating his own wife as a case study. No, this is so much more reminiscent of like late 1800s, early 1900s views on women like yellow wallpaper type of stories where men were like, oh, your hysterical send you to the asylum. But this is 1980s, like two early 2000s for a moment. And I was like, yeah, but the women in marble head Massachusetts had it so good when they got sent to the asylum, they would go to the seaside. I don't know what happened behind closed doors. I say they had a good. They might not have. They were making pottery. But they were making pottery and like walking the beaches in marble head and getting like fresh sea air. And that was their treatment. And that sounded a lot lovelier than what a lot of other people experienced. But this is the 2000s. This is the 2000s. He's like, amusing about her mental diagnoses and he's trying to like come up with different things that she might be. And threatening to send her away, what types of therapy she could benefit from. Yeah. It's so terrible. But despite his background in mental health and him threatening, he never gets her health ever. So to him, theorizing about his wife's health was it far more interesting than actually doing anything to help her. And this just isolated Susan even more. Well, I also imagined that if she went to go see an actual professional, that therapist might help her realize the problem isn't her. It's Felix. Well, he didn't want that. From Felix's perspective, the only other time she's seen another therapist that therapist called his wife and told his wife exactly what was going on. Yeah. I'm just like picturing the word manipulation, like popping up with like a strict snack. And like a little jingle because that's how it goes. As far as we know, because this, like the narrative that you painted, the picture you painted of Susan believing that she was being followed is something really that did happen. She thought Felix was following her and having her followed. We don't know. We have no way to verify if that ever actually happened. But the true issue here is that Susan was looking for reassurance from her husband. Like she wanted connection. And instead, he hears this man that made her all but dependent on him and is now withholding that love from her to keep his power and control over her. This is the cycle of abuse. Instead of offering reassurance to Susan, he's treating her as a symptom, a diagnosis, and he's reinforcing the role he established in her mind decades earlier. And that role is that Susan cannot trust her own mind. Felix is the only one who can show her the way. Yep. So despite the fact that they're both adults now. Felix is pushing 70, Susan is 44, the power dynamic has never shifted in their relationship. During these fights, Felix would call his wife demeaning and phantomizing things like sick puppy, which around his children, he was basically teaching them that his mom couldn't be trusted and that she was lesser than them. She was just a little sick puppy, like we put her over here in world in reality. And Felix talked to Susan like she was a child, which baby in his mind, she always was because he didn't meet her at 15. And in a way like her growing up was obstructed. So like in a way, she still is stuck in there, being 15. She was groomed. She was groomed. But as you can also tell, like there are now some cracks to this dynamic where Susan is actively standing up and trying to push against the authority that he had still ingrained in her. But it's not working. He immediately shuts her down again, calls her crazy, makes her feel small. Well, she doesn't know how to have the conversation and how to confront her or him. So every time she tries to do something, it ends up with her having a quote unquote outburst at the dinner table and ending in tears. So she looks crazy even though she's voicing things that often could be very reasonable. Yeah. So she's trying to stand up for herself. He's making her feel crazy, makes her feel small again, which then sends her back to this like young little 15 year old girl who all she wants is to feel validation, to feel care, to feel loved. And then it causes more anxiety and self-doubt in her. It's this terrible cycle that would inevitably cause cognitive dissonance for Susan, where it's like on one hand, she feels like Felix treats me like I have a disease. But then it's taken over by, oh, well, Felix has authority over me and he's the only one who can help me. And those two feelings naturally like would tear someone apart and make you feel trapped. And Felix essentially just kept Susan feeling really small, their entire relationship. And he never made good on any of the promises to send her away or get her any help or anything like that because maybe he didn't feel like he had to because she was super submissive. Right? He got to live his life normally outside of the house. And Susan could not like she felt like her entire life was under his control. He knew what was best for her. It was all under his discretion and he could do whatever he wanted to her. And when the only person you rely on is the person who is belittling you, it's only natural to feel very trapped, isolated, lost, completely alone. And she didn't really know how to escape these feelings, her husband and the unhealthy marriage. Yeah. So as you can imagine, Susan is just like mental health wise at a very terrible place. You can't trust her husband, her children have views of her that she doesn't feel comfortable with. And in January of 2001, after at least a year of suffering through these fights, Susan consumed an entire bottle of aspirin and attempt to die by suicide. She did survive, but it's very easy to see how this kind of like reinforce the toxic relationship. And mentally ill, Felix is not and he's in control of her and the family. Whereas like in reality, she was just desperately trying to escape his control. Right. And he didn't do anything to help her. He just wanted her to be mentally dependent on him. It was so clear that he, yeah, he didn't actually care about her well-being. But so then she comes out of this, she like survives this suicide attempt. And now she's like more empowered and is like glad she's alive, but now she's like, I want a divorce, but Felix doesn't like that. And I do want to say that this next piece of information comes from Susan herself because we don't know Felix's aside. But according to Susan, Felix tells her that marriage is a permanent bond and that their marriage was supposed to last forever. Which is crazy. What are you saying, dude? Who's really crazy here? And she's my god. It's like he doesn't, does he forget that she knew he was married over and that he's already been divorced? That's so crazy. Yeah. It's crazy, he's crazy. Yeah. According to Susan, he would rather see her dead than have her divorce him. So if she tried to separate from him, she knew he would try to kill her. That's what she felt. But apparently this didn't stop Susan from continuing with the divorce proceedings. She wanted out of this marriage, and then this is where things get really ugly. By now, both Eli and Adam had moved out of the house for college, their older, and their 14-year-old brother, Gabriel, is alone living at the house of the parents. According to Gabriel, Felix was not the only one making threats. Apparently, Susan would openly talk about the way she would kill Felix. Around her 14-year-old son breaks my heart. Who was the one that sided with her when he was younger too? And she would talk about what the easiest way to kill Felix would be. Would it be to drown him, to drug him, to shoot him? Like, openly thanking these things. And his dad is also making these threats as well. So it's like both of the parents are just openly talking about murdering one another. Oh, God. So messed up. And it's like they live in this mansion if it's separated from everyone else. So it's like, who's here to help the kids? Yeah. It's so unfortunate. But unlike before, the issues between Felix and Susan did not stay behind closed doors. Multiple times throughout the year of 2001, both of them called the police to report domestic violence against one another. And when the cops arrived to the home, suddenly the stories would change and nothing would be like filed or everything would be dropped. Susan and Felix just waved the police away. They'd give an excuse. Everyone's emotional, right. And almost every time Susan and Felix would call 911, giving some sort of excuse as to why they didn't need to worry about them. Again, cycle of abuse. And probably going back to what you were saying about like, they did have power because they did have money. If the police are arriving to a house, it's like this giant mansion compound. And the people are like, oh, actually, it's okay. That call was nothing. We just got in a heated argument. The fact that they're just like walking away and being like, okay, we believe you in no more investigation. Well, legally, they can't do anything. It's two adults who are both saying to the police. Separate the adults. You would think so. Take one of them in and then ask the other one questions. Well, they would wave away the police almost every night except for one night. During one of these blow-ups, Susan started shouting at Felix. And in a moment of fury, she slapped him across the face in front of the cops. So the police have to arrest her. They arrest Susan. They briefly keep her in as it jail cell. And then Felix decides not to press charges. Susan's released and she returns home. Keep in mind, they're going through a divorce currently as this is happening. So it is very clear they are not getting along. And I'm like, why didn't you guys separate? Why don't you live in different places? It's not healthy for you to be together anymore. But they have a fortune all the time. Well, and so they kind of live separately as separate as they could get at this point. Because Susan was living in the main house and Felix was living in the pool house. So yeah, they were living in separate places but like two steps away from one of them. And Susan didn't want to leave the house because her kids were at the house and she wanted Felix to move out. But Felix was also the one making money and the one being able to afford the house. Susan didn't have a job, she didn't have savings, she didn't have anything. So she was truly entirely dependent on Felix. Yeah. So she started to realize like, okay, in our divorce, like when we get divorced, I'm probably going to lose the house and she thought that she was probably going to have to like sign over everything, start over with absolutely nothing. And so with this in mind, in 2002, before any decision was made about the house, Susan moved out and she set her sights on a new life in Montana and she wanted to get custody of their youngest son Gabriel because he was the only one that was under age at this point. Felix agreed to pay her a sizable monthly stipend to cover child support and alimony, giving her at least some semblance of security. That's why he told her. Yeah, of course. But when Susan, how does he let her go so freely all the set in? Nope. So Susan's in Montana and the second she leaves, Felix calls up his lawyer and changes that agreement that he had made of a Susan because he did not want her to have anything. And he knew he could get everything. So on October 11, 2002, Felix was actually granted full custody of Gabriel along with total ownership of the house and slash the alimony he had agreed to pay Susan by more than half. It's kind of world shattering for her. Yeah. It's like he tried to wait for her to go somewhere else and then like abandoned her there and be like, oh, you're screwed. Try to survive without me. Yeah. So messed up. So when Susan heard the news, she was not happy and the same day she called Felix from Montana and her rage was practically like seeping through the phone. She screamed every insult that she could at him. And Susan was already planning on going back to the house in Orinda to pick up her belongings in the next few days. So she told Felix the following that when she arrived, she was going to kill him for what he did to her. Did you know of volcano once blocked out the sun and accidentally gave a sprank in sign or that the most feared pirate in the Atlantic, the man who terrorized an entire ocean, may never have actually killed anyone? Hi, I'm Connor Tomlinson. You might know me from love on the spectrum. History is my thing and has been my whole life. And I'm Carter Roy and this is what the fact. Every week we take three of the wildest true things ever recorded and tell you the whole story. Behind them, the facts that sound made up, the stories that got buried, the moments that changed everything. Carter brings the history, Connor brings the facts, the tangents, and the occasional British accent. Pip pip. The wildest stuff is real and the real stuff is wilder than you think. The poolhouse sits at the edge of the property. Felix has been staying there for weeks even after Susan moved out. And tonight it's quiet and dark as Susan approaches. She crosses the manicured lawn without really thinking about how she got there. Her chest is tight, her thoughts are scattered, she's furious and she wants answers. Felix made her promise and then he took everything from her. Susan's heart aches as she remembers that at this very moment, Felix has made it so that she doesn't have custody of her children. She grits her teeth in pain and she looks at her hand. In it, she grips a canister of pepper spray. Makes her feel safe, even if she doesn't plan to use it. She studies herself before opening the door to the poolhouse. And by the look on Felix's face, she has just surprised him. Susan doesn't give him any time to get his bearings. She lays into him, screaming about his betrayal. I would dare he take Gabriel away from her. How could he slash her alimony like that? How is she going to survive? Accusation is just spilled out of her mouth. The past, the countless betrayals. Things she's never stopped carrying. Some of it's grounded in reality. Some of it isn't. But in this moment, it all feels true to her. With every word, Felix's body grows more and more tense with rage. And finally, in a burst of fury, he lunges at her. Susan fumbles for her pepper spray and sprays it in his face. But it doesn't stop him. Felix grabs her by her hair, throws her down hard. She hits the ground, scrambling. And he continues to hit and scratch her, overpowering her once more. She shouts and thrashes, trying to flee. And through the chaos, Susan sees a glint of a knife. It's in Felix's hand. She screams, riggling her body in a desperate attempt to get away from him. She manages to get a leg free and kicks as hard as she can into Felix's crotch, sending Felix and the knife to the floor. As Felix rides and pain, Susan darts for the knife. She grabs it. But Felix is quick. He's on top of her again, punching her and trying to snatch the weapon away from her. He seems desperate. Maybe even scared? Susan has never seen him like this before. Suddenly, she's the one with the power now. She has the weapon and she's going to use it. She thrusts the knife into Felix's side. And then again. And again. And again. And she doesn't stop until he's dead. And this is how Susan would eventually recall the events of October 13th, 2002, while on trial. But we don't know for sure what actually happened on that evening. Right. But what we do know is that after Felix was dead, Susan did not call 911. She did not move the body. She simply returned to the main house, washed the blood off of herself, went to bed, woke up the next morning, had breakfast with her son, and continued about her day. After her son left the house, Susan then tried to cover her track. She cleaned blood off her clothes. She washed and hid the knife that she had used. And then she drove Felix's car out to a train station parking lot and left it there. So there's really no telling of how long Susan was planning to not tell anyone anything. Probably hoping that it would just disappear, right? Not get a problem anymore. Also, there is like record that Felix, after the call he had with her in Montana, when she was like viewing and was like, "I'm going to kill you." I'm going to come back and kill you. Felix did call the police and was like, "I'm worried." But the police were like, "Well, she's not there, there's nothing we can really do." Like, but she's coming in a couple days. Ooh, and it took. a little less than 24 hours to find Felix's body. - Yeah. - So her son, Gabriel, noticed that she was acting a bit strangely and he said that she seemed distracted, distant, like her mind was totally summer else and it only got worse later that night. So Gabriel, he was supposed to go to his hand for instance, good giants game with his dad, but he couldn't find Felix anywhere. So he asks Susan, his mom, where Felix could be and Susan's face just went, what? Her eyes fluttered, her voice cracked. She said she had no idea where Felix was, but Gabriel was like, oh my God, my mom is lying, something happened. And so this is when he decided that he needed to go searching for his dad, he was gonna snoop around. Previously his dad had been living in the pool house, so on the evening of October 14th, 2002, Gabriel Poke walked to the pool house to search for his father, but when he stepped inside, Gabriel discovered a horrific crime scene. We cannot admit. No, and they're like, she let him. She let her child find his father murdered. A 15 year old child finding the bloody, brutalized corpse of his own father. And like, I don't care what happened prior to this. I don't, like it doesn't matter how terrible Susan and Felix were to one another or Felix screamed her, no child should ever have to walk into something like that. No, ever. It is terrible. I can't even imagine. So Gabriel didn't even care what his mom did. He calls 911 immediately. And this Patrick answered the call when the dispatcher asked what the emergency was. Gabriel very clearly stated what he believed happened. He said that his mom had just killed his dad. So he knew upon finding his body. And when the cop showed up to the house, Susan acted completely surprised. She claimed she had no idea where he could be, and she had no idea what they would want from her. And the officers explained to her that according to the 911 call, her husband was dead, and Susan didn't show any reaction to that. When one of the police officers told her that her son Gabriel is the one who found the body, she then screamed out, oh my God. And after that, police searched the house and found Felix in the pool house. Exactly where Gabriel had found him, and they arrested Susan for the murder. I mean, I do believe Susan was probably in shock in some way, but she also was trying to pretend everything was fine. For two days after being arrested, she denies that she had anything to do with her husband's death. But eventually her story does change, and she does finally confess to killing Felix, but she insists that it was self-defense. So she claims, like you said in the narrative, that Felix actually attacked her, that he had the knife, she was able to wrestle it away from him, and then in self-defense killed him. Which is the argument that her defense attorney plan to make. But as the trial approached, a million questions still hung in the air. If it was self-defense, why did she not call the police afterwards? If it was self-defense, why did she tamper with evidence? Why did she move Felix's car? And again, if it's self-defense, why did she have no injuries as if she fought with a knife? She had surface level cuts and scrapes, but nothing serious. And all of these questions were going to be addressed that her trial, which was set to start in 2004, but the proceedings were a total circus. Like the trial itself is almost as wild as this entire case. Susan was being charged with the first degree murder of her husband, Felix. The prosecution plan to argue that she killed Felix for financial reasons and as revenge for him cutting her off. They also wanted to show that Susan was mentally unwell, that she was delusional, and Susan's fate hung in the balance. But some of the decisions that she made were a bit erratic. First, she wanted to defend herself, but was persuaded to hire legal counsel. She hired and fired multiple lawyers before landing on the well-respected defense attorney named Daniel Horowitz. I also think it's crazy and also sad, poor choice of words, but the prosecution's full plan was to show that Susan was mentally unwell and delusional, which is everything Felix was doing her whole relationship, which in a way, if you were on that team, it's almost not to be cynical or manipulative again, but that is kind of a good defense for them because that's her trigger. So she might act erratically and do things to prove that. But the prosecution was trying to say that that's why she murdered him for that. She was crazy. So the trial was scheduled for January 2004, but just before, I think it was like a day before the trial was supposed to start and this is devastating, but also wild. Daniel Horowitz, Susan's lawyer, Daniel's life was murdered. So the judge declares a mistrial so that Horowitz can deal with this tragedy. And that story in itself is like a whole other case where it was, it ended up being a teenage killer in a satanic worship situation. But what matters is that the trial is pushed back and then Susan, who already was not wanting to trust a lawyer who already has trust issues and already wanted to defend herself, starts to like, oh, this is a sign that I shouldn't have a lawyer. And then she starts to like think that Daniel actually killed his wife. She starts to really push back any representation and she realizes the only person she can depend on is her. Which is unfortunate that this happened for her because the whole thing is for her to try to prove that she was not this crazy person who murdered him. It was like self-defense and he was the one that was abusing her. But if we look at other people in the past who've done the same exact move where they're like, I'm choosing to defend myself, Ted Bundy, which the verdict was guilty. He was convicted and sentenced to death. Green River Killer, judges intervened and he was forced to have professional counsel. And many others, but like point is, statistically it does not work in the person's favor. - No, I do also want to say like in understanding Susan, it's very clear she had snapped to a point where she's sick of being a puppet. She's sick of being controlled by men. She desperately wants to defend herself. Like that was what she was trying to do standing up. - She's not a sad puppy anymore. - Yeah, but she took it to a point where it didn't work in her favor. It makes sense that she has trust issues. But yeah, defending herself didn't quite work in her favor. And there were some moments where Susan argued her case with shocking clever ways, like people were like, oh, like maybe there's a chance. Like for example, she argued that Felix didn't actually die from 27 stab wounds, but from a heart attack. And a friend, the pathologist came up on the stand to back that up. But then on the flip side, it started to unravel like in other parts where she was defending herself. And it really unraveled when the court called the star witnesses in the case, her children. All three boys who at this point are now adults. They have to go on the witness stand and look their mother in the eyes. Both Gabriel and Adam served as witnesses for the prosecution, while the middle son Eli remained the one child who was called on behalf of the defense. It's like you were saying the dynamics did change. - I mean, I can't imagine Gabriel found his dad's body. I would not be able to decide with my mom. - So all of this is so devastating to watch. And can't even imagine what happened to be able to process that for any of these boys. But while she questioned her sons, Susan got really emotional. She was openly crying. She was asking them about their upbringing to Gabriel especially. Susan made a show of trying to discredit him, pulling up random memories of his childhood in order to show that he was untrustworthy. - Which is another reason that she never should have defended herself because that shouldn't be her job. She shouldn't have to stand up there and belittle her son. - Right, that's so horrible. But Gabriel remained unemotional through this entire thing. She asked if he was a happy child and he coldly responded that he had quote, "moments of happiness." He also regularly referred to October 13th, 2002 as quote, "The night you murdered dad." - Oh, which, as a jury, can you imagine how powerful and devastating that is to hear? - The son Adam was no gentler. During his time on the stand, he described his mom as being evil and notably Kuku for Kuku puffs. The press went wild with his lines specifically and even the judge himself laughed when Adam said this. - Yeah. - In response to that moment, Susan just like shook her head. She feigned the tone of disappointment as a mother and she asked Adam where he learned to lie so well. And like you said, Eli was the only son who tried to convince the jury that his mom was innocent. He claimed that Susan was never the aggressor that Felix was violent and short-tempered and he said that there was no question in his mind that his mother had acted out of self-defense. But this was just one small moment amongst like a much bigger case that it kind of got buried beneath all the other bizarre acts by Susan. But towards the end of the trial, Susan declared that she had one more witness to call to the stand herself. And this is also something that lawyers encourage people to not do. And her story was harrowing and brutal as she recalled all the ways that Felix co-washed her. But then she also started making up a lot of claims. Like she said, that Felix was a satanist, that he was a spy, that he brainwashed her children. So like she's kind of, Not making herself reliable. Right. Which I mean, baby, she wasn't. She first saw Felix for help with anxiety. I know. And then she got in this terrible situation where, of course, her mental health is going to decline. And, of course, without getting the help that you need, perhaps she did have a lot going on. It's shitty because then she becomes an unreliable narrator in her own story, where she is the victim. And she doesn't have an actual attorney to help, like, drive the narrative. She's just, like, letting everything out. She even makes a claim that she had a dream that was predicting the 9/11 attacks, but that Felix prevented her from going to the police. So she's, like, adding all of these details that are, if I were a lawyer, I'd be like, we're not going to talk about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is unrelated. You can turn all about that later after everything is over. And unfortunately, in the end, Susan was found guilty after a long deliberation in the jury decided to lower her conviction from first degree murder to second degree, because they didn't think the killing was premeditated, but they also didn't buy the self-defense argument. So for this crime, Susan was sentenced to serve 16 years to life behind bars. Susan almost immediately filed for an appeal which was denied. In 2019, Susan was finally eligible for parole, but that didn't go well either. She was actually removed from her parole hearing for being disruptive, because apparently she wouldn't stop talking over some of the members of the board. She kind of, like, accused members of the board of being, you know, in a conspiracy and she was rude to them, and they were all kind of like, you're not helping yourself here. I know. I feel so bad for her. She needs help and she's still a victim, even despite everything that happened. I know. So now, Susan won't be eligible for another parole hearing until May of 2029. So she's got a few more years. It's so sad because, again, I'm not a lawyer in any way, but like, I can see this case and I can be like, if she had the proper defense, they could have gone her off. Like, they really could have leaned into how he groomed her. And he's the one that broke her. It makes me think of the Menendez brothers case, which you always. I was thinking about it during this. But at the same time, like, they weren't showing mental illness and court. Like, they had a lot of clarity. Like, that is the case that pisses me off the most because those two boys should not be in jail. Because of the abuse that they've faced. But there's not a ton of evidence of the abuse whereas here, we have hard evidence. I really do believe that given the right defense, this case would have played out differently. Although, like, do we have hard evidence? Because we have. She has 15. Her mom intervened. Right, but that's the therapist intervened. But then you have decades of the two of the three kids saying that she's doing all this stuff. Yeah. So you've, like, two things against a hundred other things that the boys are catching. Take me back in time. I have no law degree, but I will defend you. No, but it's hard. It's hard. This is why I feel the same way about the Menendez brothers where you know what happened. Yeah, or even she could have gotten a lesser sentencing. And in no way are we condoning murder because murder is absolutely wrong. But I also think of the psychological ramifications here and everything that led Susan to where she was. Like, she felt trapped. She felt stuck. And my God. Like, what help is being offered to those boys who also lived through that. And through 20-some years of watching their father berate their mother. It's a sad case. So at the end of the day, two things are true. Susan Polk did kill Felix Polk. That was wrong. But she was also a victim of an equally egregious act. Felix Polk took advantage of Susan. She was just 15 years old, just a girl seeking help for anxiety and tools to cope with life. But instead, he groomed her into this perfect patient. And if he wanted to help her, he would have. He could have. If he wanted her to feel crazy, he knew exactly what buttons to push. Susan's mental health was his domain for better or more often for worse. Yeah, the cycle of abuse that was so toxic and long lasting that it threatened to destroy everything in its path. And in the end, as we know, that's exactly what happened. One death, but multiple lives left completely changed. Relationships destroyed. Trust completely obliterated. Brothers against brothers, mother against her sons. So yes, Susan Polk is a killer. But she is also a victim. She was preyed upon by a man that she later then killed. And again, nothing excuses that murder. But it is one of those stories that just makes you wonder what justice really looks like. And if there is justice in a case like this, it makes me sad. I know. True crime is sad. It is. Thank you all for listening. We're your host, Sabrina Deanna Rogan, Karin Bien. Join us next Tuesday for another peek inside another episode of Crimes of Passion. And if there are any cases you want us to cover, like the McDonald's Coffee or the Menendez Brothers. Oh, I already in my mind. I came up with a new season and a bunch of cases that I want us to do like after reading through this. So yeah, let us know in the comments. We want to hear what you have to say. Here at Crimes House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you liked what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crimes House. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Crimes of wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. Looking for your next podcast? Check out what the fact. It's a new show from Connor Tomlinson, who you know from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, alongside Carter Roy. Follow what the fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at what the fact caught.