PASSION: Astronauts, Affairs, and the Attempted Murder That Shocked NASA

Hi everyone, before today's episode, we want to tell you about What the Fact. It's a new show from Conor Tomlinson, who you know from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, and Carter Roy from Murder, True Crime Stories. Every week they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Conor's infectious energy will make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on Earth. Follow What the Fact, wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact is. It's the start of a brand new season, which means we get to play a game, a new game. Oh yeah. This season, we are covering crimes of Prussian! The kind of things that people do when logic and reason fly out the window and all you have left is pure emotion. So we are going to play a game that we're calling Red Flag or Green Flag. We're going to share a couple of moments from the episode and the relationships that we're about to unpack and decide whether it's a sign that someone is healthy and worth pursuing a green flag or whether you should run away as fast as possible from that person aka a Red Flag. And if you feel most comfortable playing this in your therapist's office, then please, please do talk to us. This one's a wild one. Yes. Today we are talking about Lisa Marie Nowak, a NASA astronaut who's a fair with another astronaut unraveled into a story of obsession, violence, and an absolutely crazy cross-country drive. It's out of this world. Truly. Oh, I like that. Punny. Punny. Punny. You get to decide, red or green flag. So the night before the biggest moment in your life, this person comes to see you to show support, even though they're not supposed to be there. Green flag, red flag. But that's hard because it's like what's the previous relationship? Like if you have a great relationship with your mom and you don't expect her to be there, she's not supposed to do that. This is a romantic. We're thinking romantically. But again, so like your partner is like living in a different state, not supposed to be there, but you love them and you want them to be there. And then they show up. Like that's a great surprise. Like that feels like a green flag. But if they're not supposed to be there for other reasons, and you're not in a good spot, and then they show up to try to like manipulate and take control of your day and your excitement, red flag. So in this case, it's showing up to show excitement and support. Okay. Green flag. Okay. I think green flag too. Okay. All right. I'm going to give you one. After being in a bit of a love triangle, they promise that they broke it off with another person, just to call you by that person's name when you work together in bed. If you say green flag, I'm scared for you. It should be red flag. I think there's no debate for that one. The lasing red flag. Yeah. Put your clothes on and say, fuck you. Fuck you. And leave. Leave. And it turns out these are two sides to the same person. Bill Ofulene, Lisa Noach's fellow astronaut and secret lover. And when another woman threatened to get in the way of what Lisa believed was an epic romance, she decided to take drastic measures. And that plan was wilder than you can ever imagine. Welcome to Crimes of Passion, a crime house original powered by paved studios, where your hosts, Sabrina Dianna-Roga and Corinne Vienn. Every Tuesday, we're exploring a different corner of the true crime universe, examining cases that left a permanent impact on society. This season, we're stepping into the world of romance. Where love turns into obsession. Where reason fades and pure passion pushes people past the edge. If you're loving Crimes of, please follow, rate and review us wherever you listen. It helps us build this community. And we love hearing from you. To get early access and ad-free listening, subscribe to the Crime House Plus community on Apple podcasts. You can also catch us on YouTube where we include visuals that bring every case to life. Today we're diving into the wildest cosmic love triangle, pun intended, Lisa Marie Noach. A brilliant NASA astronaut who found herself in a romance that went from star-crossed to straight up unhinged. In one moment, she was sharing a secret romance with a fellow space traveler. The next, he dumped her for someone new. And the heartbreak didn't just send Lisa back to Earth. It sent her spiraling, and Lisa was determined to get revenge. But not on her ex. Lisa fixated on the other woman. And how to get rid of her. Before we get into this episode, that definitely feels like an episode of Groo's Anatomy. But NASA and True Crime, we want to give a warning up front. This episode contains descriptions of stalking, violent attacks, and attempted murder. Attempted. So the one bright light in this episode is that there are no actual murders. Yeah, first episode. So far, no murders. But there is an attempt at murder, and that did cause lasting damage to the would-be victim 30-year-old at the time, Colleen Shipman. Colleen was a young woman who thought she was starting an exciting new relationship, but she didn't know that the man that she was dating had already created a tangle of secrets of lies and a very messy love triangle. And I feel like that's a good word for today's case, messy. It's going to make you mad at some points, at some of the people involved, and it's very much out of this world, pun intended. And you might wonder how it even is true, but yes, it is very, very real. I'm excited about this case. Yeah. It's kind of a passion in and of itself, I feel like those are the most fascinating cases because it's like everyone can see a little bit of themselves in the right person experiencing something. And I feel like there's some understanding of how someone can get to a certain breaking point. And I love stories. I know that there's no murder in here, but like women who kill, and women committing crimes, there's something very intriguing about it. Right. Because it's more rare. I have a whole book called Lady Poisoners. And every night before I go to bed, I just nightly reading, bedtime reading. And we, for a certain listeners of our other show Two Girls One Ghost, when people send us their wedding invitations, we send them a congratulatory postcard. But what no one has caught was that the background of our postcard that we send is actually only plants that people have used to poison their significance. That was a little easter egg. Yeah. Yeah. We're not advertising, killing in any way. No. Just want to make that very clear. Right. No. But we think the stories are fascinating. Yeah. Prior to February 5th, 2007, Lisa Marie Noak's life seemed picture perfect. She was brilliant, respected, and a NASA astronaut with a future that seemed written in the stars. She was the kind of woman that little girls looked up to. If that woman could have it all, a career and a family, but it would only take one day, one single day for everything to fall apart. Did you know the most feared pirate in the Atlantic, the man who terrorized an entire ocean for years, may never have actually killed anyone, or that the real Golden Age of Pirates was the most democratic workplace in the Western world. I'm Connor Tomlinson from Love on the Spectrum, and history is my thing. And I'm Carter Roy, and this is what the fact. Every week we take the most unbelievable true things in history and tell you the whole story behind them. Carter sets the scene, Connor brings the facts, the deep cuts, and the genuine belief that this is the most interesting subject in the world. It is. This is the history lesson. You actually wished you had in high school. Two episodes every Wednesday follow what the fact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or subscribe on YouTube at what the fact pod. A woman once survived a fall for more than two miles up because she crashed landed on a nest of furious fire ants. A 13th century pope once condemned black cats as the servants of Satan. A lumberjack once survived near decapitation by his own chainsaw. These aren't tall tales, they aren't urban legends, they're real events. I want to take a quick moment to tell you about the unbelievable. A new podcast from the history channel and rewind studios, adapted from the hit TV show, every episode opens a cabinet of curiosities to uncover the strangest but true stories in human history then digs into the historical record to show you exactly how and why they happened. Strange people, odd places, the killer events. When it comes to history, the truth is always more unbelievable than you think. Follow the unbelievable on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or every U-Listener Podcasts. It's a little after 3.20 am at Orlando International Airport when Colleen Shipman finally lifts her suitcase off the carousel. The flight was delayed, the baggage took forever, and although she just spent a wonderful weekend with her new boyfriend Bill, all she wants now is sleep and her own bed. She is ready to be home. She steps on to the airport shuttle, headed toward a dark, isolated lot where she parked her car. As the shuttle pulls away, she settles into receipt and watches the blur of lights outside, but she gets the feeling that someone is looking at her. And then she notices a woman in a trench coat and a black wig, and when she locks eyes with this woman, she looks away immediately as if caught. Weird Colleen thinks, but she brushes it off, it's late, it's 3 a.m., people are weird at 3 a.m., the shuttle stops the lot and Colleen steps off. So too does this woman in the trench coat and black wig. Colleen starts walking to her car and she hears footsteps behind her. At first she thinks nothing of it, but they stay with her, behind her, slowly getting closer, too close. She glances over her shoulder and that's when Colleen sees her. It is in this moment that she realizes the woman is unmistakably following her. Colleen's heartbeat quickens, she picks up her pace, but so too does the woman behind her. Colleen isn't willing to take any chances, she breaks into a sprint and then so too does the woman behind her. Adrenaline pumping, Colleen is in full survival mode, she needs to get to her car now. She sees it up ahead, she's so close, but the woman behind her is keeping pace, if not catching up. She fumbles for her keys, willing herself not to drop them, she reaches the car, opens the door, throws her bag inside, slips in the front seat and slams the door shut behind her. She hits the law, her hands shaking, heart racing, but it isn't over yet. Suddenly a banging on her window, it's the woman and she's trying to open the door. Colleen doesn't know what to do, the woman persists, and now the woman is starting to cry, begging Colleen for help. And there's something about the plea that makes Colleen hesitate, what if this woman really does need help, is someone after her, so Colleen slowly cracks her window open, just an inch. But before Colleen can ask what's wrong, the woman thrusts her arm inside the car with a small can and sprays Colleen with pepper spray. Blinded, panicking, Colleen slams a car into reverse and somehow drives to safety. She calls the police to report the incident, and seven minutes later, police arrest a woman, still wearing the wig and trench coat. But now, they know who she is, a NASA astronaut, Lisa Marie Noak. So you might be wondering, how in the Andromeda Galaxy did one of NASA's star astronauts end up here, pepper spraying, a seemingly innocent woman in the Orlando airport parking lot? It feels laughable, but it's serious because it got attacked. This is so terrible, but it's like, it's so ridiculous. The details of this case are just like mind-boggling, it's wild, it's a wild story. And this has actually been named the astronaut love triangle, and it's a situation that spiraled so far out of control that it's kind of crazy to think we're even started. But beyond the flashy headlines, the cheap disguises and the diapers, yes diapers, we're both wearing one now. We actually never leave these seats between episodes, we just pee ourselves. There were three people headed on a collision course, so let's go back to the beginning to understand how the astronaut love triangle blasted off. It was hard. There were a lot of moments where I wanted to add more, but it's so good, that's easy. I love a pun. I love a dad joke and a pun. Okay, we're going to start with Lisa Noak. Before she was an astronaut, before she was a Navy pilot, before she was the center of this bizarre love triangle, Lisa was a shy young girl with dreams of becoming an astronaut. Lisa was born Lisa Marie Caputo on May 10th in 1963 in Washington, DC. Her father was a Navy computer engineer and her mother was a math teacher. And Lisa grew up in the height of the space shuttle era. So she grew up watching the NASA missions, following them on TV, watching the launches with her family, and on July 16th, 1969, when Apollo 11 launched six-year-old Lisa Noak knew what she wanted to do with her life. She was going to become an astronaut. And she did just that. Yeah. Did you dream of being an astronaut as a kid? No. I wanted to be a veterinarian. That's very cute. I know. But I faint. That needles in blood. Pivot to podcasting. Yeah. What did you want to do? I wanted to be an actress. Oh, and look at you now. I wanted to be a cat lady and an actress. You're kind of not far. Yeah, you're truly a cat lady. And so much so that you're sneezing near me. Yeah. There's cat on your pants. We're wearing diapers and there's cat on our pants. What podcast is this about? Okay. That wasn't even English. Sorry. Going back to Lisa, who definitely excelled in English, she focused on science, math, and engineering. And she entered the US Navy Academy in 1981 just a few years after women were even allowed to be admitted, which is very impressive. This is one of my favorite parts of the story is that Lisa's journey to becoming an astronaut. She defied so many odds and there were so many things in factors against her as a woman. Right. She kind of was one of the pioneers, one of those early women to succeed in this. Yep. So Lisa majored in aerospace engineering and it was here at the US Naval Academy that Lisa met Richard Noak, a fellow midshipman. And the two started learning, get excited about each other, have crushes, and they'd be condating. Lisa graduated in 1985 and was immediately commissioned as an officer in the US Navy. And from the outside, Lisa and Richard, their relationship appeared to be great. They were the perfect couple, right? They were both the naval officers who were at the whim of their naval assignments, but they always seem to support one another and stay strong despite their time apart and being stationed in different areas. Really long hours, heavy training, so many relocations, but they understood each other. Yeah. Yeah. And the careers of the teachers. Exactly. Three years after graduating in 1988, Lisa and Richard got married. And another reason I love Lisa, marriage didn't stop her from pursuing her lifelong dream. She completed training as a naval flight officer. She clocked thousands of hours of operational flight time. She earned a master's degree in aeronautical engineering and a master's degree in space systems engineering. She's just like collecting master's degrees. In February of 1992, Lisa and Richard welcomed their first child, a son named Alex. So she's doing all this on top of having kids, which I'm like, yeah, Lisa. And I wrote, she's one of those people who makes you look at yourself and be like, am I doing enough? Like, yeah, literally, I just kind of space down and was like, shit. You were doing a lot. This is really impressive. You are. You will impress me every day. I would say the same to you, but neither of us maybe are equipped. We do a lot in the fields that aren't aerospace. We're not changing the world by any means. We don't set up space. We're done. I would love to go up to space, but I have no skills. But yeah, so Lisa, she seems to be juggling all of this with grace. And then on May 1, 1996, Lisa Marie Noak was chosen for that year's NASA astronaut class. So cool. And also such a big deal. And let's emphasize this because in 1996, NASA had received thousands of applications. Only 44 people were actually selected. So that alone is basically less than a 1% acceptance rate. So that's more competitive than Harvard. And not only that, but Lisa was a woman and there weren't really a lot of female astronauts at the time. Historically, only 11% of astronauts were women at this time. So Lisa's odds were not good, but she freaking did it. I also looked it up. I think 2025 was the first year that the number of women accepted actually was higher than the number of men accepted. Wow. Yeah. Oh my gosh, we've come a long way. We have. It's like a huge honor and an even bigger challenge, totally. And so after she was accepted, Lisa, her husband, Rich, and their now four-year-old son, Alex, all moved to Houston. So they're supporting her career. And this flight training, NASA's flight training, was a rigorous two-year commitment. So they all moved to Houston together. But between 1996 and 1998, Lisa dedicates virtually every moment of her life to her training. She participated in countless mission simulators, perfected emergency protocols, performed immersion trips and NASA's weightlessness simulation, which basically is a plane that plunges down for 20 seconds at a time to give them that feeling of being in space. But she did this like 40 times a day. Like how does your body even equip for something like that? That's wild. It is. And finally, in 1998, Lisa becomes an official NASA astronaut and is eligible for flight assignments. But that does not mean the work is over. And this is so interesting because like I didn't know most of what we're about to talk about when it comes to like NASA and what happens once you are admitted basically. So it wasn't clear when Lisa would get a chance to actually board a rocket to space. NASA missions are very competitive and they're very slow moving. So some astronauts actually wait decades to ever be able to go to space. Yeah. So she was awaiting a mission. in doing so Lisa had to maintain her skills and showed it to her. medication to NASA's broader missions. So she got busy. She learned how to operate a robotic arm that was used on space missions. She also participated in extremely brutal survival training in tense missions where she and a group of fellow astronauts were literally dropped in the wilderness and how to figure out how to survive. Which is crazy. - Yeah. What are these guys like Navy seals? - Basically, she has Navy training. - Yeah. - And in the middle of all of these growing responsibilities, Lisa also manages to have two more children, twins. Twin girls who were born in 2001. - I can't imagine. - Again, are we doing enough? - A lot of responsibilities piling up on one another. - And that's because it definitely was. So Lisa is juggling motherhood and also an incredibly demanding job. She's basically doing it all by herself because her husband Rich was also a Navy pilot. And in 2002, he was called back to active duty. So all of the sudden, Lisa finds herself acting, essentially is a single parent to three young children all while continuing the responsibilities she has at NASA and logging 50 hour work weeks. But the promise of a space mission feels like it's so close, like it's in her grasp. She's so motivated by it and she's very tenacious. She's a very relentless person, which we'll soon see how that manifests romantically. But the pressure, it starts to build, right? Like everyone has a boiling point and she is exhausted, she's overworked. She's lonely on top of everything else. And she wants some kind of relief or a release. - And then she met Bill Ophaline. Both Bill and Lisa are pilots and Bill is in the astronaut class of 1998. So he started his training just as Lisa was finishing hers, but they had a lot of overlap. These classes are small. NASA astronauts, oh no, one another. And throughout this time, into the 2000s, Lisa and Bill saw each other every now and then, keep in mind. At this point, Lisa is married to Richard. They have three kids. And Bill is also married with kids to a woman named Michaela. And so Bill and Lisa are truly just work acquaintances at first. But as they continue their work at NASA, their bond grew increasingly stronger. And like we have kind of alluded to, working at NASA is not like a normal corporate job. You're not just like clocking in, getting lunch, going home, getting cocktails, maybe for happy hours with your co-workers, no, no. These NASA employees are working long hours enduring grueling psychological challenges together, which means that these people either become hyper bonded or almost like extreme competitors to one another. - That should be a reality show, like the drama of. - This is the actual reality show. - This whole case feels like a soap opera. So opera, my jersey came out, sorry. So, ba-ba. But yeah, so Lisa and Bill become hyper bonded and slowly get to know each other a little bit more intimately. - Yeah. I like so can't relate to this because hearing about Lisa, just because you don't intimately bond with your co-worker. - Well, it's you. (laughing) I think we're as bonded as we can be pretty much. - No, but I'm just like, that sounds like hell to me. It looks so bizarre, but like to be so overworked and so overstimulated and like sleep deprived and trying to raise three young kids, I feel like the last, no offense to men, the last thing I would ever want is to be like touched by another person, like think me the fuck alone. I would like to just have a weekend completely alone. - Right, talking to absolutely no one, never seeking a word. - Yeah, just watch some reality TV. That watch this reality show. - Maybe Lisa should have done this instead. But at first Lisa was like, okay, well, you know, he seems like a trusted confidant, a work buddy, a friend. And it was easy for Lisa to share her thoughts with Bill because basically they had the same job, they were both overworked, he was overworked, she was overworked for the same reason. So like there was a lot of comfort in that connection. - And relatability. - Yeah, totally. And this was the sort of closest that Lisa had originally had with her husband, but hadn't felt for a long time. - Yeah. - In addition to the grueling workplace, Lisa faced a very tragic loss in 2003. In 2003 is when the space shuttle Columbia disintegrated on reentry. - So sad. - Killing all seven astronauts on board, including one of Lisa's closest friends, Laurel Bark. And this tragedy hit really hard for everyone for the world, but also within the astronaut world. And especially for Lisa. So she was having a really hard time understanding how to really process the trauma and the loss. And this basically just deepened the bond that she had with her astronaut compatriots. And that extended to Bill. Their bond was deeper and deeper. And then in January of 2004, their relationship took a romantic turn. - So in January of 2004, both Lisa and Bill participated in a survival training expedition in Canada. So they, along with a very small group of other astronauts were literally sent into the frigid wilderness of Canada with nothing more than whatever supplies they could carry on their backs. And their mission was to find their way back to base camp alive. So for 11 days, this group of astronauts hiked through the snow, sometimes traveling more than 12 miles before setting up camp for the night. The conditions were brutal. And the group camped in close quarters every night. So maybe it was the severity of their mission or the closeness and the frigidness of the tent. - It's a wild. It's like, what if they didn't make it? And you just lost a bunch of highly trained people or a mission that may never. - I'm sure they have a helicopter. - That probably. - What they experience in space. - I think a helicopter probably. - Yeah, I hope so. - So. - Then they're not just trying to break people or push them together in a cozy tent. - And that's what happened. But I think this does open up the bigger conversation that we'll have at the end of this. It's like, they're putting these people through such grueling psychological tests. - Yeah. - But where's the care that comes after the fact? And because that part is missing, I think Lisa leans on bill, Bill leans on Lisa, and they become bonded, potentially trauma bonded. - Yeah. - But something on this trip changed for Lisa and Bill. - Who, by the way, both have spouses. - And children. - Yes. - When they got back to Houston, both of them knew that they weren't just friends. They were falling for one another. Both of them were married. But to them, that didn't really seem to be a problem. It didn't matter. Because they wanted one another. And this romance felt so different. It felt so right. And it was the kind of thing that would change both of their lives. And this was true. Just not in the way that either of them expected. - We all experience petty grievances in life. - A bachelor at party that resulted in a runaway bridesmaid. - A neighbor who has trained their dog to poo in your yard. - An ex-friend who writes a semi autobiographical book about your friend group and then kills off your character. - Maybe these aren't completely relatable, but they are all petty crimes we've investigated on our podcast. - I'm Griff, your average biracial farm raised queer actor and retired model who's living and looking for love and Los Angeles. - And I'm Kira. I'm an SNL writer, a movie writer, a comedian, and I'm the only person pettyer than Griff. - Petty crimes is a true crime comedy podcast that exclusively investigates non-crimes. Meaning, real life, low stakes, petty drama that's submitted each week by our listeners and ruled on by us. - Some weeks we're joined by comedian friends like Ego Wodom, Gianmarco Sarasi, Chloe Fineman, Sarah Sherman, Jeremy Cole Hayne, Carl Tarte, Lacey Mosley. But most of the time, you're just stuck with us. - If you're the type that tells your boyfriend to shh, so you can ease drop on the T-Unfolding at the table next to you, you found your people. - Subscribe to Petty Crimes, wherever you get your podcasts. - It should have been another quiet night in 2004. The kids were asleep in bed. The dishes are done. The laundry is folded. But Michaela Ofulen sits alone in the dim glow of her husband's computer monitor, her hand hovering over the mouths. She's not sure when the suspicion started. Maybe it was the missed calls or her husband's sudden coldness. Bill used to be kind, funny, romantic. Recently though, he's been cold and distant. The Bill Ofulen who lives in her house now is like a stranger to her. Something must have happened. She even tried asking Bill what was going on. But every time he refuses to explain, reassuring her time and time again that everything is fine. But Michaela doesn't believe that. And if Bill won't tell her himself, then she'll have to figure it out herself. And she has a hunch that she might find some answers on Bill's computer. It takes only a few seconds to find out the truth. She clicks into his email inbox. At first, there's nothing unusual to just work emails, nasse updates. But then there's a name. It's when she recognizes Lisa Noak. Michaela opens the email. And at first, the words blur. Passion, love, sex. This is not a work email. This is personal, intimately personal. Michaela's blood turns cold as she reads on because she can't seem to stop. Lisa writes to Bill with the intensity of a love from a romance novel. It's explicit, raw emotion. And as Michaela scrolls through Bill's inbox, she finds more emails. Messages from Lisa responses from Bill. It goes on and on and on. Michaela can feel her face getting hot. with a mix of fury, shock, and misery. But she can't stop reading. Michaela loses count of the number of emails between Lisa and Bill. But eventually, she can't stomach reading yet another love note. She slumps back into the chair at her husband's desk. So here it is, the truth. Now it's just a matter of deciding what to do about it. - So clearly, Bill and Lisa were having a full blown affair. It started in January 2004, but it got really hot and heavy very quickly. And it was clear that they were spending a ton of work, time together, a ton of time outside of work. They were going on dates, they were going on bike rides. They worked out together. They were in a full blown relationship. - And they were having sexual intercourse. - Yes. - Yes, they were. But clearly, Bill was not really good at hiding disaffair because his wife, Michaela, discovered the emails and confronted him, which I'm glad that he was bad at hiding it. - Yeah, I am too. She confronts him. And his reaction is interesting. Bill does apologize, but not for writing the emails. He apologizes that Michaela, his wife found them. Like, I'm sorry you had to see that. - Yeah. - So that's not an apology that was really accepted. And in February of 2005, Michaela and Bill ended their marriage. Michaela took the kids and the house, but Bill did remain in his kids' lives. But Bill moved out, got his own apartment. And one of the first things he did was give Lisa noak keys. - Who is still married, by the way? - Right, yeah. So this is a love square that is now because Bill is divorced, a love triangle. - Right, but Lisa's husband doesn't know about it. - No idea. - So Bill is like, woohoo, I'm a free man, kind of like a single man, ish. But now he's like, okay, my girlfriend, she can come over whenever she wants. This is so great. We're having this like wonderful whirlwind romance. And now it can become even more intense. But Lisa's like, I can't just come over whenever. Like, I still have to sneak around. It's not that simple. - Right. The entire time she's keeping this affair secret from her husband, Rich, and Bill's divorce wasn't going to change that. She was still remaining married and just sneaking around. So Lisa came by the apartment as often as she could while also maintaining her marriage with Rich. He was back now from active duty and he was ready to settle back in with Lisa doing the domestic life thing. - You're right, this does sound exhausting. - It's like so tiring. How do you have the energy? And half the things that we're about to talk about, I'm like, who was watching the kids? How'd you just do this? - I know. - I am glad though in the case and in the discussion of it, the kids are left out of it for most of it. And that makes me feel happy. 'Cause divorce-- - In public discussion, but it's like, what would they actually go through all of it? - But divorce for children, at least they're not brought into the trial. - Yeah, sure, sure. - Yeah. So Lisa was trying to judge all these relationships. I think I truly, she had more hours in the day than the rest of us. We're also focusing on her work ambitions because going to space was still the priority, right? Like Lisa wanted that more than anything else. And in 2006, she got her wish. - After a series of delays and fall starts, Lisa and crew of six other astronauts were finally clear to take off on the space shuttle Discovery. Lisa's job on this mission was to bring supplies to the International Space Station and to test new safety and repair protocols. This mission was the crown jewel in Lisa's professional life. Because for decades, she had dreamt of this moment. Literally since she was a little girl watching Apollo 11 take off, she is dreamt of this. And now other little girls are gonna watch her take off and dream of that too. - Right, so special. And now it's finally happening. And I think Bill knew this too. And this brings us back to our game from the very beginning, Red Flag or Green Flag. So before launch, he comes to see Lisa in the crew quarters. At the time, no one knew that Bill and Lisa have been seeing each other. And other astronauts on the Discovery mission did note that Bill's presence was strange. They're like, why is he visiting Lisa? And also, I think they're kind of in this quarantine like other people aren't supposed to come see you before a mission. - Right. - But Bill being so proud of Lisa and excited for her does want to go give her like a send off. - Which is good. I'm glad that at least he had that response just given what we were talking about with like the competitive nature. - Right, and probably the jealousy because people wait years and years. And it's like, he's still waiting. - Right, it's not like it's going in chronological order who's picked either. It's not like, oh well, I know that I'm in the next one. - Right, so Bill goes to visit Lisa right before she takes off. And even though it was weird, he shouldn't really have been there. No one really makes a note of this. Or they don't say anything at the time because the excitement is enough to distract everyone. - On July 4th, 2006, Lisa and her crew boarded their shuttle. As the countdown began over the speaker, Lisa felt her excitement growing. She had spent her entire life planning for and dreaming of this exact moment. - Three, two. - Pretty good. - One blast off. - Well, I don't think they say I like that blast off. - But Lisa felt her body thrust back into her seat as a massive force of the rockets propelled the ship forward through the atmosphere, pushing harder and harder, forcing Lisa back further. Until weightlessness took over and finally Lisa was in space. - This is so, I'm like very excited. - Right now, like this feels, I can feel it. - There's so much magic in that moment. - Truly. - For her. - Truly. - It's heart-reasing and it's like, just it's both scaring and thrilling and everything that you have worked for. - And unfortunately, this is not a podcast about beautiful moments in people's careers. Now remember we mentioned diapers and attempted murder? That's gonna come back. - Yes. - But right now, if Lisa, she is in space. And over the next two weeks, Lisa and her fellow crew members executed their mission, restocking the space stations and testing the new safety protocols. After a successful 13-day mission, Lisa and her team were cleared to return to Earth and the reentry went extremely smoothly, which was really scary and important because this was after the Columbia Shuttle disaster of 2003 and the challenger back in 1986, like this is, you know. It's kind of top of mind. You send people off, but are they gonna be able to safely make it back home? So this was successful and it was celebrated all across NASA. Lisa returned to Earth a hero, one of the rare astronauts who actually got a chance to go on a real space mission. And just like that, Lisa had achieved her greatest goal in life. - And after she landed, Lisa gained a little bit of celebrity. - Mm-hmm. - She is this new returned astronaut. She starts making numerous public appearances, answering questions, talking to crowds all over the country, but she also had to return to her regular life. Like, hey, you went to space, which is like this crazy, literally out of world experience, but now you have to come back down to Earth and just return to life as normal. - Right. - Which is a weird psychological thing to have to deal with. - And then also it's like, how do you, if you wanna be up in space, but you've done it, where do you stand now as an astronaut? Like, do you keep trying to go on the next one? - Right. - Like, what's your plan? - I don't know. - But so she returns back to her regular life. Rich had taken care of the kids while Lisa trained for her mission. And now his expectation is for them to settle back into things. But suddenly Lisa felt the weight of the responsibilities of a regular Earth-bound existence. - Lisa found that she could not keep up appearances with Rich like she could before her mission. Because life at home is now becoming really tense. It was quiet, it was cold. And while things with her marriage were cooling off, things with her affair were heating up, at least in a way. - So now the thrill of her mission is gone. She kind of replaces the thrill with her affair with Bill. Their relationship felt more intense and more essential to Lisa than ever. And this is, to me, where I really feel like she trauma bonded with him, because the way that she almost describes needing him feels, doesn't feel like love. It's more of like a survival. - Well, I just feel sorry for her that she can't just like exist. Try it. - It does lead things to you. - She truly needs someone else or something huge, something that feels impossible or scary or like not understood by so many other people to like chug along. - I know. And spending time with Bill for Lisa felt like this way to relive her own journey to space. She got to remember the excitement, the anticipation of those days before the launch. But soon some things started to change. Bill is now approved for his own shuttle mission. And as the days come closer to Bill's launch, Lisa starts to notice something is off with Bill. He seems distracted, less passionate. Does it sound familiar to what his wife, Michaela or no ex-wife, Michaela felt? But Lisa's like, it's probably just the stress of the upcoming mission. And she's like, I don't want things to change. She wants his attention. So she's kind of like doubling down. - Right. - She starts showing up at his apartment all the time. She's calling him constantly. She's just becoming like super obsessive. Like claws gripped in, holding tight. - Yeah. - She's ignoring his coldness. And instead, just like truly throwing everything she has at this relationship. She's doning on him. She's doing everything she can to help him prep for his launch date. And then when that launch date came, December 9th, 2006, Lisa almost felt like she was in the cockpit of the Discovery Shuttle all over again. She was obsessively checking updates on the shuttle status. She was feeling really anxious. And even more so than she'd felt on her own mission. - Right. - During the 13 days that Bill was away, which is the same amount of time of her own trip to the International Space Station is almost making her feelings for him even stronger to the point where she's almost considering leaving her own relationship and her own husband. - Well, because she doesn't get to see him and what he's projecting, like in front of her. Like she gets time to make sure up and double down on her own fantasy of exactly where they are. Well, I also think it's interesting because this is the first time in this affair and this love triangle that Bill is starting to be cold and distant and kind of pull away and it makes her want him even more. Up in there. Yeah. I feel like that's a lesson learned for a lot of people. I'm just sorry that for Lisa, it didn't get to happen when she was 19 and instead when she was fully in her career, married and children. And unfortunately, while Lisa is doubling down, considering leaving her marriage, she doesn't realize is that while Bill is busy on his mission, he's also busy in his emails because Bill loves a sexy, salacious email exchange, especially from space. Except for this time, he isn't just sending them to Lisa. He's sending them to a woman named Colleen Shipman. That's right. Bill has not just been distant due to his mission. He wasn't busy. He wasn't stressed. He was doing exactly to Lisa what he did to his wife, Michaela, starting another affair. Lisa has lost track of the number of times she's tried to call Bill tonight. Five, six, maybe seven. She looks at the clock and realizes it's already passed two in the morning. She can't describe the pit in her stomach, the heartache. She survived days in the cold, sleepless nights, zero gravity, but this feels unbearable. Something isn't right. Ever since Bill returned from his mission on December 22, he's been different. Distant, cold. She hasn't been able to see him since his return as Bill and the entire crew were required to be in quarantine after return, but she thought she was going to see him tonight. This evening was supposed to be Bill's welcome home dinner, where everyone in the shuttle crew was allowed to invite one special guest to join them for dinner. Lisa was sure Bill would invite her, but he didn't. And now he won't return her calls. Well, he did return one. After she left Bill a message at 9 p.m., he called her back an entire hour later, and he was distracted, distant. They only talked for a minute before he gave some excuse and said he had to go. This isn't like him. Lisa knows Bill. She knows him better than anyone. And if something's wrong, she wants to be the one to comfort him. Why won't he let her do that? She dials him again. The phone rings and rings. Until Lisa hears Bill's pre-recorded voicemail telling her to leave a message after the beep. By now, she's practically memorized his old voicemail. But this time she doesn't leave a message. Lisa hangs up the phone, says back in her chair. She doesn't understand why Bill would be avoiding her like this. They're in love. They have a beautiful future to look forward to together. Lisa knows this like she knows her own name. So what's Bill's problem? Lisa glances at the clock on her desk. It's almost 2.15 a.m. Maybe he's asleep. Maybe he's depressed, worn down from the thrill of a trip to space. Maybe he needs time to himself. She could call him in the morning. Tomorrow's Christmas Eve. Maybe the festivity of the holiday will raise his spirits. But tomorrow, that feels like 100 years away. No. She wants to talk to him now. So Lisa picks up the receiver and dials Bill's number again. I'm so sorry for him. I know I do too. Bill did not pick up. So Lisa kept calling and texting, hoping the bill would pick up and call her nerves. Finally, Lisa was able to connect with Bill on Christmas Eve two days after he returned to space. Can you imagine two days, two days, you don't have the excuse of him being like, okay, well, he's married and he has to put on this facade and you know, there's like too many eyes on him. He's divorced. He has his own apartment. And he's telling Lisa that he loves her. And I know that Lisa is in a relationship so it doesn't forgive anything that she's doing. Yeah. Like Bill has been painting this picture to her. Right. I'd be like, what? Like, did you hit your head and say like, what happened? Right. You'd come back a different man. Oh my god. Like I feel the anxiety for her in this moment. So he calls, they talk on the phone for half an hour. And then again, on Christmas for about 20 minutes, whatever they talk about, it seems to be enough to comfortably set up it. And she's like back to viewing themselves as being in love. She's more sure than ever that they are meant for each other so much so that she actually finally decides, even though there's always other red flags that just happen, she decides that she's going to divorce her husband. And by this point, Lisa and Rich's relationship had grown so strained that they both knew there was no going back. As far as we know, Rich had no idea of the affair, which I also feel bad for. But clearly there's issues in their relationship. And the pair divorced in January of 2007, but Lisa doesn't spend much time mourning the end of her marriage. She's too busy fantasizing about the future with Bill. But Lisa had no idea that her dreams were about to be ripped to shreds in January 2007. Lisa, fresh off of her divorce, was working out with Bill in the NASA gym, one of the many activities that they shared together. But Lisa could tell that something was on Bill's mind. In the middle of their workout, he blurted out that he was in love with someone else, a woman named Colleen Shipman, who he had met two months ago and four to two months, months ago. That meant that Bill had been cheating on Lisa, and he was seeing both Lisa and Colleen for two whole months. That meant that Bill had already been seeing her before he went on his space mission and the whole time that he was on the International Space Station. While Lisa had been fighting for him, counting down the days from the return, he had been talking to another woman. Allisa did this mental math, and she also tried to follow what Bill was saying. I can't imagine being told that in the gym, too. And also, it makes me mad at Bill for so many reasons, but why did he wait for when Lisa got divorced to now end things with her? Because it's not exciting anymore. I know. I know. No. So she's not exciting. He told Lisa that things were starting to get serious with this other woman, which is such a slap with the face as if they weren't supposed to be serious with Lisa at that point. She wanted to pursue a relationship with her, Colleen. And that meant that things with Lisa had to end. Somehow Lisa manages to respond to Bill without losing her shit. But she tells Bill that she's happy for him and that she wishes him the best. And she tells Bill that her biggest priority is that nothing changes between the two of them. She wants to remain close friends, plus they work together. You know? There's. It's messy. Yeah. Bill seems to believe her. But what Lisa was really thinking was Bill is being ridiculous. He can't possibly mean what he said. And then also doubly confusing, despite the breakup, Bill and Lisa, their relationship doesn't change at all. They still work out together. They still hang out together. They do everything they used to do. So complicated. Right. So she's getting on this mixed messaging. Like for someone who's the responding like Lisa. Right. It's confusing. I mean, maybe they stopped having sex, but he's still asking her to hang out outside of work. They're doing everything that they were doing before. Yeah. The way that their relationship was like so fiery and had so much heat to it and had so many like secrets involved, you can't just go be friends. No. And so Lisa, because of this mixed messaging, is like Bill still loves me. He still wants to be with me. He's just confused. Whatever Bill said, it was just a momentary lapse of judgment. So Lisa and Bill, they continue to spend a bunch of time together like they always had. But Lisa wanted more of his attention. Over the month of January 2007, she called Bill nearly 70 times. She sent dozens of text messages that we don't really know how responsive Bill was. But clearly, it wasn't enough for Lisa. She wanted Bill all to herself. And as long as Colin Shipman was in the picture, she knew she couldn't have that. So Lisa decided to do a little digging. And what did Lisa still have? A set of keys to Bill's apartment. So on January 23rd, while Bill was away in a meeting, Lisa took the opportunity to let herself into his home. She wasn't sure what she was looking for or what she was going to find, but it didn't take long for her to find something. Oh, it's like, you don't want to find it. You don't really want to find it, but you do. She doesn't need, he told her that he's doing something else. Why does she need more confirmation? She wants to know about who this woman is. So sitting there on Bill's table is a piece of paper with a flight reservation on it. It is a ticket for Colin Shipman. And she writes down all the information. So basically it was a reservation stating that Colin Shipman was flying into Houston on February 1st and then flying back to Orlando on February 5th. So basically, Colin was coming to visit Bill for a long weekend. She's looking at this piece of paper, realizing, oh, this is serious. Like Bill is booking travel for her to come spend the weekend. Yeah. Like emails and flirtation and maybe emotional cheating. So Lisa rushes to Bill's home computer and she clicks onto his email account. And she read countless emails between Bill and Colin scanning through the messages, brutally similar to some of the things that she used to send him. Yeah. Notes of passion, love, building a life together, the future that Lisa wanted and thought that she was going to have with Bill. There are, you can look this up online, there are a couple of email exchanges from Bill to Colin and Colin to Bill. Oh, I hate that. when Bill was in space. So he literally, and I think he signed off one of his messages like sent from orbit, which is waiting. Is that even that? Is NASA not screening that? Like I feel, why do I feel like it's like sending something out from prison or like everything gets red? I mean, but he's not doing anything wrong. He's just sending an email. A sexy email. This, okay, so one of the emails read-- How do they have such good service in space? From Bill to Colleen, I can't get good at service in my apartment, but God forbid in space. I can send spicy emails from space traveling with the, what's it called? The Starlink? Yeah. But one of the emails it was sent from Bill to Colleen read, "I will have to control myself when I see you. First, the urge will be to rip your clothes off. Throw you on the ground and love the hell out of you." Another email from Bill read, "You must really have me wrapped around your finger that I can't even function without you here." I kind of have second-hand embarrassment right now. Like, this is embarrassing. It's also a little bit of love bombing. Oh, totally. Colleen and Bill have only seen each other for two months. Also, like, I don't want Colleen's email exchange to be exposed. Like, it would be something if it was like Bill and Lisa given what happened, but like sure. Colleen is innocent. The innocent party. Why do her spicy emails have to be the public on? Well, at least these are the ones from Bill. Yeah. Instead of blaming Bill, like, we all should be. Yes. The man with the pattern of cheating and secret affairs. And it's not even new. He's doing the exact same thing he did before. Oh, yeah. Copy and paste. Colleen's not going to be the final one. No. Lisa turned her convictions onto Colleen. Yeah. Lisa was so in love with Bill that she could not see the errors of his ways. To Lisa, this person Colleen was the problem. And if we know one thing about Lisa, it is that when she gets an idea in her mind, she is motivated and nothing gets in her way. She knew how to execute a mission. So she put together a plan. Lisa requested leave from work. So she had just recently gotten a divorce. So she basically claimed she needs a few days to take off, to process her divorce and, like, have some me time. She's approved for three days off. Instead of using that time to process her divorce, she gathers a series of maps, 67 in total. These maps plotted out a couple of things. One was the layout of the Orlando International Airport. Another was the trip that she'd have to drive to get from Houston to the airport. Others had the route from the airport to Colleen's house. So she literally has stalked this woman. She knows everything about her. She knows the details of her flight. Why do you need to know the entire layout of the airport? So it's just a little bit of a flight. And what gate it is, like, there's too much. I do think her plan is a bit scattered. Like, I don't think she really knew what she was doing, but she was acting in, like, passion and anger. And just like, she wanted to do something. Because it's not clear how much thought she put into it or what exactly she wanted to do when she found Colleen. What do you think based on the supplies that she had? - Yeah, that's a good point. Because here's what she packed with her. A wig, a trench coat, a mallet, some pepper spray, a BB gun, rubber tubes, plastic gloves and trash bags, and most notorious of all, papers. - Yeah, so in this case, like hits the news, people are obsessed with this diaper fact, which is a detail that so many people do remember about this case. 'Cause not only is it astronauts, it's like, then it's an adult with diapers. - I feel like the diaper thing is a, it has happened again in stories, but it's only with women. And I think that's because men can just, like, pee in a cup on their crazy drive. So according to the belief, and like what people analyze from the fact that diapers were found is that Lisa was so desperate that she wore adult diapers during her drive from Houston to Orlando in order to avoid stopping. So she didn't have to stop anywhere. And according to one of the arresting officers on her case, there were also two dirty child diapers in her bag that Lisa said she used to collect urine while she drove, along with another 20 to 30 unused diapers in her trunk. - Wow. - But there's also no photos of them. So I think like some people wonder if this was also exaggerated as the case went on. And also just to poke like a small hole in the whole diaper thing, you need to change a diaper. So what's like, pull over and pee. - Well, so then Lisa's lawyer later said that the reason they weren't left in the car is the family evacuated during a hurricane a few years earlier. Also as a parent, I would probably put extra diapers in my car just to be safe. - Right, like were they adult diapers? They're child diapers. - I think that's where the detail gets so muddy. But the whole point is everyone's focusing on the wrong thing here. 'Cause the diapers, while yes, is a interesting piece of the case. It's probably one of the things that was blown out of proportion. And especially because astronauts, like while on their missions are said to wear these diapers, I think it just like added to the astronaut detail of the story. - Yeah. - Well, either way, the diapers, even though they are fascinating, they're probably the least sinister part of Lisa's mission. Because on February 5th, 2007, Lisa drove over 950 miles, stopping as little as possible, diaper or not. And a little after 1 a.m., running on pure adrenaline and only a few hours of sleep at this point. Lisa arrived to the Orlando International Airport, where she waited for a Colleen shipment to arrive. Lisa planned to follow Colleen from the baggage claim to the parking lot, where she would intercept her. - Can I tell you a couple of little details? - Hmm, please. - I read that Lisa drove her ex-husband's car to try to not be caught, like if they were to trace anything back to her. If she wasn't driving her car, it'd be hard to trace that. - As if they couldn't be traced back to her. Like number one suspect. - Right, I know. - But also I want to add a couple anecdotes from Colleen's side of the story. So we're talking a lot about Lisa and Bill. We know that Lisa is now aware that Bill was having a affair. But Colleen knows nothing. To Colleen, she's dating this new guy, Bill, who's wonderful to her. They're falling in love. They're even saying I love you to each other. They're so serious in fact, that Colleen attended Bill's space launch with his family. So she's literally side by side with his mother at the space launch. - Like what does his family think? Do they know? - Well, there's a whole thing later where I guess Lisa sent a letter to Bill's mom. And Bill's mom was like, Bill, what the fuck? - Oh shit. - Yeah. But anyway, so to Colleen. - This is sad because that like is proof that he liked Colleen more than Lisa. - I know. They didn't even know who Lisa was. - Well, also he's been keeping Lisa. They've been keeping each other secret for so long. - Right. - But anyway, so Colleen in her mind, the relationship is just the two of them. She has no idea about Lisa. And the only inclination that there was at Lisa is that during this trip to then the weekend with Bill, and it gone great. Except for one night while they're having sex, Bill called her by the wrong name. Bill called her Lisa. - No freaking way. I would have thought it would be the other way around. - Isn't that crazy? - That is crazy. - But, but also like he was, his phone was probably being called 70 times. So he was thinking like, oh my God, is Lisa gonna freaking call me in the middle of this? - Yeah. I just thought that was an interesting little detail that speaks to Bill, perhaps more than anyone else. Aside from that, the rest of the trip went great. So Colleen is truly none the wiser about Lisa. She's getting home to Orlando, she can't wait to get home. That's all she's thinking. So Colleen might know very little about Lisa, but Lisa knows everything about Colleen. And around 3.20 AM, Colleen finally grabs her bag and headed to the airport shuttle with Lisa close behind her. The whole ride, Lisa tried to stay cool, drawing very little attention to herself, but also she was wearing a trench coat in a wig, so she didn't exactly blend in. - No, it was not like a good disguise. It was like a party city. - Yeah, like classic. - Are you trying to pretend to be a spy? What's going on? - Right. And Colleen certainly noticed her, but she just thought this was like a strained random woman, nothing else. - Right, she heard the name Lisa, but she didn't know who Lisa was. - One also, she saw this woman into disguise and she could tell that it was weird, but again it's 3 AM. - Yeah, yeah. - She doesn't know. She's like, that's weird, but it's not my business. Until they get to the parking lot, they both get off the shuttle and Colleen realizes that Lisa is following her, and then there's this pursuit to Colleen's car that took place and despite locking herself in the car, seemingly safe from this crazy woman chasing her, Colleen had a moment of empathy as Lisa outside of her car begged for help. - In a moment of pity, Colleen cracked open the window and that was a huge mistake because Lisa immediately thrust her arm inside with her pepper spray and started pepper spraying inside the car. Colleen's panicked, she puts the car in reverse and she peels away. She drove as far as she could to feel safe and then she ran to a pay phone and called the cops. - Well, that's like with the pepper spray in her eyes, probably, like in her long nose and she's hot boxing pepper spray. - Yes. - And then things moved very quickly after that. It only took seven minutes for police at the airport to find Lisa, who had basically been wandering the parking lot after this encounter. 'Cause I guess things probably didn't go the way that Lisa had planned, which we don't know what she planned, but they find her and they find her bag of suspicious supplies and they know that they found the right person. - At first, Lisa was charged with several things including attempted kidnapping, attempted vehicle burglary and misdemeanor battery. But on February 6th, only one day after the attack, the police tacked on. on attempted murder charges to. The authorities thought Lisa's bag was very, very suspicious, and not just that. They believe that the contents of the bag was proof that Lisa wanted to do something far more dangerous. - I mean, a mallet, BB gun, trash bags? - Oh yeah, this feels like a kill kit. - 100%. - If she was found guilty, she would be sentenced to life in prison. - But in the end, Lisa never went to trial. There are a lot of false starts, and ultimately Lisa took a plea deal in 2009. She accepted the burglary and misdemeanor charges while the attempted murder charge was dropped. All in all, the sentencing was pretty light. She got a year probation and 50 hours of community service. And she had to formally apologize to Colleen's face at her sentencing hearing, but she was also required to write a formal apology letter as a part of her punishment. I did try to find it, and unfortunately even our research team couldn't find it. So we don't know the contents of that letter. Also, it's not Colleen's business to share it if she doesn't want to. But as you can tell, this case did make headlines because it feels fake, like all of these details. It starts as a Pentagon love affair. At one point, I guess not really. It's like a square turn triangle, turn square again, turn triangle. It's messy. - It's messy. - Yeah. - And Lisa definitely took things too far. I also feel like we gotta talk about Bill Shady here, right? - Yeah. Bill's just as responsible. - So many people have affairs, but not everyone's response is like Lisa's. - Okay. - Good finding out. - Agreed. - And Bill did not face a kind of backlash in the public space, but both he and Lisa were punished by NASA. They were both discharged from NASA. Lisa was first fired, which is the first time in history that the NASA organization discharged someone from their astronaut corpse. - Wow. - Not only that, but the Navy discharged her under the conditions of other than honorable. A few months later, Bill was dismissed from NASA as well. And in the matter of a few terrible minutes, Lisa Noak's entire career, her entire life that she had spent so much time and energy building. This was gone. - Yeah. It seems like Bill's too. And then following the scandal, NASA decided to formally create a code of conduct for its astronauts, which up until this point, they didn't really think that they needed because so many of the astronauts came from the military, which has a super strict code of conduct. And so they didn't really think that this was necessarily, but after what happened with Lisa and Bill, NASA decided to make it official. And yes, it did include a section on personal relationships and other risky behavior. - Okay, but I do really want to unpack, in this case, the psychology of it, especially in NASA, did make some changes. But when it comes to becoming an astronaut, there's so much emphasis on the physical side of things. Survival training, GeForce requirements, spacewalk readiness, just the overall shape you have to be in to make it through the space mission. But then there's the mental side of it, which is, if not as hard, it might be harder. And your mind is being pushed to the limit just as much as your body, the stress of all this and everything that could possibly go wrong on a space flight. There's, I think we looked at a stat that astronauts are estimated to have between a 3% and 58% chance of developing PTSD compared to between one and 14% for the general population. To much higher risk. And developing PTSD puts you at risk of developing so many other dangerous symptoms and disorders, like alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, anti-social personality disorder. I also feel like when you're going through trauma like that, it feels like the relationship she developed with Bill was almost like an addiction more than it was a romantic love. It was like her ability to mentally survive was hinged upon Bill being in her life. - Yeah. But also like thinking back to some of her choices too, I wonder if part of this was personality because like she's choosing an extreme career path with totally extreme demands on her psychologically and physically. And so maybe some of that extreme and like risk-seeking behavior extends to also extreme behavior in relationships or emotional responses to things. Like we actually don't know anything really about her relationship with her husband. - No. - Maybe it started out very similar. - Either way, it is, I feel like it's a bummer because would having some psychological assistance throughout all of these trying moments have changed the outcome of the situation. - Maybe we don't know. - I'm just glad that there was an actual murder here. - Yeah, thank goodness for that. - But yeah, clearly like her and Bill, what they went through was incredibly intense of an experience and they went through it together and it wasn't just the training, it was like the fall of the Columbia disaster in 2003, the stress of going to space, the calm down of coming back from it, realizing you never ever get to go up again and then it was like what is your life, what are you trying to do? And this was definitely more of like an addiction stemming from Lisa. So we can consider it with a gavel in hand, not a healthy romantic love. - No, it's a red flag of our relationship. And then even NASA realized that they needed to do more for astronauts' mental health, that there weren't enough support systems in place to help astronauts deal with the traumas, either from the challenges of the space race to the challenger disaster to the Columbia disaster and then the associated issues that arise from the job in general. And so for decades, all that NASA had in place was psychological testing in order to be admitted into NASA. But then after what happened with Lisa, they did develop better behavioral health screenings for astronauts, including a series of psychological and cognitive assessments, anytime an astronaut returns to Earth. They also have better support systems to monitor mental well-being throughout their career, which good. - I'm grateful, unfortunately, a lot of, in history, generally, like even warnings on coffee labels, saying like caution comes from someone getting hurt. And then it's like, oh, wait, maybe we should implement this thing that prevents it from happening again. - It is interesting that it's like they had the sort of behavioral health in mind when admitting astronauts and then when they return from space, it's like, let's check you out physically. Did you grow an inch like, what's going on with you? Go, blah, blah, blah, like no care with mental health again. - Right. Or just like, what changed? Like, what's your outlook? How do you feel? - And then also, I imagine that as an astronaut, if you get back and you are having mental challenges, you probably feel inclined to hide them because you're like, I want to be able to go back to space or I don't want this to impact my career. So there's probably a lot of hiding. - We're kind of like world, or chattering. - World shattering to be like, I worked so hard to do this. And it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. And like, my whole life led to a moment that just ruined me. - Or you reached that high and you might never get it again. Like, what are you chasing now? - Man. - Thank God we're not astronauts. - Stick to podcasting. It's such a messy case. I mean, it's very messy. - I am so grateful that there is no murder, but it does seem like the intent was there. - Yeah. - This is a truly wild and messy case. It does make you wonder how far someone will go for love or in this case, how far someone will go for a obsession. - Yeah, well, and we have a number because for Lisa Noak, that was about 1,000 miles with possibly very little to no bathroom breaks. And we've already seen how thoroughly it affected her after that. But she's not the only one whose life changed forever from this. As we said, after the story went public, Bill became the second astronaut ever fired from NASA, which is wild. And although he wasn't discharged from the military, he was able to retire in 2008, the year after Lisa threatened Colleen Shipman. - As for Colleen, this blew my mind. She stayed with Bill throughout all of this and they actually got married in 2010 and now live in Alaska. So for her, it was real love. They're still together as far as we know. - I'm shocked, but I will say I'm not overly shocked because it did feel like Bill was unhappy in his marriage and Lisa was the step that he needed to help him break free from it. And then he could find Colleen. - Colleen. - I just still don't trust him. - But hey, maybe that was like a good thing. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But what we do know is that Colleen had a lot of trauma from this experience, but she did have a healthy outlet. - She expressed her feelings through writing. - She actually worked under the pen name CM McCoy and she published her first novel in 2015 and it's a paranormal romance, which is right up our alley. - We gotta read it. - But it was very clearly and she even said it was inspired by what happened with Lisa and in a quote, she said, "I'm finally folding the tail of the crazy astronaut into the pages of my life story." And I do think there's like an alien love in the book. We're gonna have to read it. - Yeah. As for Lisa, no, actually basically disappeared from public life entirely. And to this day, she refuses to take interviews, although in 2022, the representative told people magazine that she, quote, "is finally at peace and loving life." As far as we know, she's living a quiet, uneventful life in the private sector, which I do hope is true for her because I do feel like people shouldn't be fully judged by the worst moment of their life and have to live in that moment for the entirety of their remaining life. So I do hope. that she got privacy was able to be like, "Whoa, my God, that was really bad, "and I'm going to get some help." - Right, I'm sure she has looking back. She probably really regrets a lot of things. - Yeah, and it's unfortunate that it was so public and I know, potential harm- - But thank God no one died. And maybe this is the best thing for Lisa, as someone who craved adventure and excitement, maybe what Lisa really needed was to find a quiet sense of peace after her space travel dreams, after her fantasies, her obsessions, her fixations, Lisa Noak, finally had to come back down to Earth. (upbeat music) Thank you so much for listening. We are your hosts, Sabrina Deanna-Roga and Karin Vienne. Join us next Tuesday for another peak inside of crimes of passion. And if there are any cases you'd like us to cover, let us know in the comments. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crime House. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow crimes of wherever you get your podcasts, your feedback truly makes a difference. - Bye, mommy. - Bye, mommy. - Looking for your next podcast? Check out what the fact. It's a new show from Connor Tomlinson, who you know from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, alongside Carter Roy. Follow what the fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at what the fact caught.