PASSION: A Student, a Secret Affair, and a Murder Conspiracy

Hi everyone, before today's episode, we want to tell you about What the Fact. It's a new show from Conor Tomlinson, who you know from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, and Carter Roy from Murder, True Crime Stories. Every week they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Conor's infectious energy will make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on Earth. Follow What the Fact, wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact is. This is Crime House. Welcome back, Mommy's. You know, would you like to play another round of Red Flag Green Flag? Absolutely. You never have to ask. Of course I want to play. It also makes me reflect on my own life sometimes. Sometimes I don't want to look at the mirror, but today we won't. As a reminder, this is how you play the game. We're going to give you some real life examples from today's case, and you can decide whether or not they are Red Flag or Green Flag. So basically, if your potential partner did any of these things or exhibited these traits, would you run as in Red Flag, or would you be like, "Oh, let's cuddle, Green Flag." Let's cuddle. Today's case is one straight from the headlines, and it's also one close to home to us in Massachusetts. It involves an aspiring news personality named Pamela Smart, whose quest for a big break ended in tragedy. Okay. I'll go first. They're crazy about you. They shower you with attention, but their affection comes with conditions and you must do favors for them. Red Flag. Totally a red flag. Yeah. Love should never be conditional. It shouldn't. But I feel like it has been for so many of my relationships. Well, and also just like the showering and attention and being like something. It's love something. Exactly. Like, it's too much. Yeah. We need a slow infatuation building to romance. And it should not have conditions attached. Mm-hmm. Okay. My turn. Easy. They ask you not to tell anyone about your relationship because people wouldn't understand. Red Flag. Red Flag. Major Red Flag. You deserve to be put in the spotlight and shine, never be hidden. I just already don't trust this person because I'm like, well, what's to come of the relationship where you're already trying to set up the standard that you don't talk about what happens in the relationship outside of the relationship? And what's the reason for hiding? Are they hiding you or are they hiding you from something else? Double Red Flag. Yeah. To start this episode. And this whole case is Major Red Flag. Yeah. Well, are you surprised? It's true crime. The truth is the relationship at the heart of this story was never a healthy one. What looked like connection on the surface was something or more dangerous underneath. One person believed it was love, true love. And the other person saw the relationship as a means to an end. An end that would cost someone their life. Done, done, done. They called it love, but it turned deadly. Welcome to crimes of passion, a crime house original powered by paved studios. We're your hosts, Sabrina Dianne-Roga and Corinne Vienn. Every Tuesday, we are exploring a different corner of the true crime universe, examining cases that left a permanent impact on society. This season, we're stepping into the world of romance where love turns to obsession, where logic slips away, and raw emotion pushes people past the point of return. Make sure to hit that subscribe button to join our community so you never miss an episode. If you're loving crimes of, please follow, rate and review us wherever you listen. It helps us build this community and we love hearing from you. To get early access and ad-free listening, subscribe to the crime house plus community on Apple podcasts. And you can also catch us on YouTube where we include visuals that bring every case to life. Today we're talking about Pamela Smart. Since she was a little girl, Pamela believed she was meant for the spotlight. When the life she imagined didn't arrive, she found another way to take center stage. One relationship would change everything, and it would cost someone their life. A warning before we begin, this episode contains descriptions of home invasion, child grooming, statutory rape and murder. I feel like I'm simultaneously excited, but also very sad for today's episode. Yeah. It's such a big story that was sensationalized and made headlines. It's something that we heard about constantly when it was happening, but it's also a story of manipulation that ends in devastation. It's also a story of a woman doing something shitty, right? I was just going to say, it doesn't like perfectly fit the mold of so many of the stories we've told before. I think it is the reverse roles. I just get sad. I'm like, women were better than this, right? But it's a good example of how predators and terrible people can come in any shape and size. Yes. The Pamela Smart case, which is what we're covering today, has it all relationships, marriage, affairs, scandal, plotting, wiretapping, and, of course, sadly, murder. Oh my gosh. Who has the energy? Right. An unfolded lead to the destruction of many lives and also the murder of a man, 24-year-old Greg Smart. Pamela Smart always wanted to be a celebrity, but real life got in the way, a few wrong turns, a few mistakes, and Pamela's dream seemed out of reach. Until she met Billy Flynn, Billy would do anything for her. She asked him to jump, he'd say how high and Pamela knew it and she took advantage of this. She took advantage of Billy until it all blew up in her face. In the end, Pamela did become famous and she had her moment in the spotlight, but it was just not in the way she ever imagined. Dairy New Hampshire isn't the kind of town where homicides happen. Maybe a robbery are like a lost dog, a domestic dispute, but not murder. That is, until tonight. May 1st, 1990. Tonight, a dairy police officer swings his cruiser onto misty morning drive. A woman had called 911, frantic, sobbing. She told the dispatcher that a man had been killed. The officer parks in front of an unassuming looking condo, unit 4E. From the street, it looks identical to a dozen or so other homes that make up the neighborhood. The same shutters, the same beige paint job. But the officer knows something terrible is waiting for him inside, especially when he spots Pamela's smart on the sidewalk, surrounded by a few neighbors. She's facing her home, tears running down her face, and the officer steals himself. He climbs out of his car, pass the group of onlookers past Pamela and her tears stained face and straight for the front door of the condo. For the quick inhale, he opens the door, he steps inside. The foyer is the only room in the house with a light on. The left, there's a set of carpeted stairs that lead up to the second floor, and directly in front, a patch of lanolium floor that leads further inside the house, into the dark. Something is there, maybe 10 feet in front of the officer, split out on the floor, just barely visible in the shadows. It's a foot. Greg smarts foot. As the officer approaches, he sees Greg lying on the ground, his torso twisted away from the front door, like he was trying to get away from something, or someone. The officer inches closer, shining a flashlight down on the body, and that is when he sees the blood. The carpet is soaked in it, creating this red halo around Greg's head. And the officer can see the wound, the spot just above Greg's left ear where a single bullet had lodged itself into his skull. And like you said, Dairy New Hampshire was not the type of place where murder happened. New Hampshire seems so much more, like their motto is live for your die, which sounds a little bit intense. A little murderous. And intense, but like, there are some really quiet sleepy towns. Yeah. So it was quite shocking. And so the news of Greg smart's death spread throughout Dairy New Hampshire. A man was shot and killed in his home, and everyone is wondering how does this happen. And also everyone is worried that they are at risk. Right. There's a murder on the loose. And now the police are obviously determined to discover what happened. And that night began an investigation that does feel like a twisted game of clue. They said he the crime scene, and it appeared as if the condo had been ransacked. Drawers were pulled out, items strewn about the floor, and they were expensive electronics piled by the back door as if prepared to be taken. The family dog, a small shit zoo named Halen, was discovered locked in the basement. Greg's body was discovered near the front entrance of the home, its wallet, wedding ring, and valuables were all found on his body. And there was a candle stick discovered on the floor near his body. So at first they were like, is this the weapon, which feels very clue, a candle stick? But it was very clear, and it was ultimately determined that Greg smart had been shot at a close range execution style. It is kind of confusing because it's like his personal belongings are still on him. And if there's a bunch of electronics, he would think that this was like a, it almost seems like a home invasion, a dog lover. home invader, turned, murdered, which it's like, - Right. - Greg haphed upon this in the person panicked, shot him and then, you know, there was no intention to kill him. And that's why they ran and left everything and had no second thought about like, "Oh, I should take his ring, I should take his watch "because they're scared themselves." - Well, so that's what it looks like at first glance. - Right. - It would make sense that maybe Greg Smart came home and interrupted these intruders, these burglars mid robbery and it's like a botched robbery, right? But there's something that's not adding up. Actually, there are quite a few things that are not adding up. Firstly, Greg is discovered with all of his valuables still on him. If they're there to burglarize, why wouldn't they have taken any of it? - Maybe this was their first time ever killing someone, they didn't intend to, they're totally panicked. - But what contradicts that is Greg is shot execution style. So it's not like, "Oh no, someone came in, "willy, nilly, shoe, oh shit, we're caught, it is slow." It is like, "Oh, we're putting this person "down on the ground, coming up to them, "putting a gun to their head before killing them." That's not panic. - I mean, I know what happens in this case, but like if I were the cop here, I'd be like, "Oh, is there a duo?" And one of the guys is way more evil than the other and he started orchestrating it. - And why wouldn't he have taken more of the thing? - All to say, it's confusing to the police. You can rationalize, "Oh, it looks like this. "Who knows how you would act if you're a burglar?" Also, most robberies people don't carry guns. So that also is another element that the police are like, this is not totally adding up, but they're not ruling out the robbery. - And the candlestick, I would think like if Greg were home and he was creeping around. It's like was he the one holding the candlestick? Are his fingerprints on the candlestick or someone else's? - Yes, additionally, there was no force entry, which maybe during this time they left the doors unlocked. Who knows? - Yeah. - So like I said, they don't rule burglary gone wrong out. So they continue their investigation and they speak with Greg Smart's wife, Pamela Smart. And Pamela Smart is an emotional wreck, as you can imagine. Her husband has just been murdered and she is the one who had discovered his body, but she's also eager to speak with the police. And as she speaks with him, she gains composure. Seems to be like fine. - It's not like she's had a full day of being like, no, it's instant. - Yeah, but again, you don't know how people will act in traumatic events. - That's true. Some people are like, let's solve this. I know how, I mean, I've never luckily been in this situation, but I know how I react in really serious situations and I'm immediately composed and like, this is what I'm supposed to do. This is like ABCD and then I break down, but like to be able to flip between the two so quickly. - Yeah. This little, that's little sus. But according to Pamela, she had been at a school-related meeting and returned home a little after 10 p.m. Immediately upon entering the home, she saw it was ransacked and in disarray, and that was when she saw her husband Greg's body. Terrified and in shock, Pamela ran from her house, screaming that her husband had been murdered and her screams were still loud that neighbors come out to check on her and then another neighbor immediately picks up the phone and calls 911 reports that a woman is outside saying her husband has been killed. That evening, Pamela herself is convinced and also very intensely saying this is a botched burglary. - Oh, so she has her own theory and she's trying really hard to sell it. - Yeah. In the end, the true story of the events of May 1st, 1990 would be a lot wilder than a case of a robbery gone wrong. But to understand what really happened and how it all unfolded, let's learn more about Greg and Pamela Smart. - Pamela Smart was born Pamela and Woges on August 16th, 1967 in Coral Gables, Florida. Coral Gables was an affluent neighborhood just outside of Miami and it was the kind of place where people emphasized status, appearance, success. So it kind of makes sense like the direction of what Pamela wanted to do in terms of her own life. - Yeah. - This became vitally important to Pamela. Ever since she was a little girl, she knew two things about herself. She liked attention and she knew how to get it. Wherever she went, whatever she did, Pamela wanted to be and was center stage. She was naturally outgoing, she was beautiful, she was popular and her parents were well off. So she was relatively used to getting what she wanted. When she was teenager, her family moved from Florida to New Hampshire, oh my God, talk about culture shock and was here that she attended Pinkerton Academy and she had really good grades. She joined the cheerleading team. So again, everything she could ever want and I'm sure she was like the cool tan girl from Florida. - Yes. - Who serves? I don't know if she actually served. - But there was one thing the Pamela craved more than anything else and that was to be a famous broadcast personality. - It's always so interesting when someone specifically wants to be a famous blank, you know? It's not like you just want to be a broadcast personality or beyond TV, reporter, journalist, whatever. It's like, no, I want to be a famous, which I'm always like, well, where are your priorities? - Was it the same or do you just hope to be so excellent at something that it just, it was the fame? - It was the fame. - Yes. And it's also funny to me because like a broadcast personality in New Hampshire, like the news in New England is extremely different than the news. Like in Florida or like when we moved to LA, I remember while my parents coming out for the first time and turning on the news and being like, oh my God. Like the blowouts, the Botox, the beauty. - The skin tight dresses. It was like, you're watching an actual show. Like it was news, but it was also like entertainment. - Yeah. - And that is not what you get in New England. - Well, I don't think she ever wanted to stay in New England. - Yeah, she was forced to go to New Hampshire, but she was very determined to achieve this goal. And after graduating from Pinkerton Academy, Pamela decided to move back to Florida for college, makes sense. So she began in 1984. She began at Florida State University. She majored in communications, all with the goal, again, of becoming a famous TV reporter. And then naturally a broadcast personality. - Yep. - So it was here at FSU that her dreams started to really feel like reality. She dove into her studies. She even hosted her own radio show. This is like the most surprising fact to me about Pamela. The radio show was called Metal Madness. And she called herself The Maiden of Metal. - I love it so much. - She played metal music. - Right, that's so shocking. - I know. - The cheerleader who's a metal head. - I'm sure somewhere there's records of this radio show. - Like I would love to listen. What was she like? - I mean, listening to any college radio station is kind of, it's amazing. It's also a little trippy because it's like, it's so diverse and like whatever. - Music they want to play. - funky music. The person wants to lead into is their radio personality. - Well, now I always think of Robin from Stranger Things when I think of like a radio show. - Right. - Hey, sometimes it does turn into something. We know someone who had a radio show and then-- - Whitney Thor. - My big, fabulous life. - Yeah. - And into a TV show. So you never know. - It happens. - Two years into her studies. In 1986, Pamela returned home to New Hampshire for winter break. And this is when she met Greg Smart. - Gregory or Greg, as he went by Smart, was born in New Hampshire in 1965. And he grew up in a middle class working family and was more laid back, easygoing friendly. He didn't have the big aspirations that Pamela did. Like, you know, his dad owned an insurance business and it was expected that Greg would one day take over that business. - Yeah, it was more like realistic and local. - She wanted me famous. - Right. - And he was fine. - Were you voted most likely to be famous? - Most likely to be on a reality TV show. - Oh, most of it. - Yeah, okay. - Yeah. - I was going through some shit and it's cool. (laughing) - Yeah, which reality TV show is really the question? - Yeah. - Like what do people think? - He's like, yes, Greg is growing. He grows up kind of like his life is laid out in front of him. He's gonna take over his dad's insurance business, whatnot. But in 1986, when he made Pamela Smart, he's not that interested in that. He's still young and he is 21. He is long, curly hair. He loves metal music, shared interest. And he's just like more laissez-faire trying to enjoy life, not really quite ready to settle into that insurance life that is laid out for him. So the maiden of metal meets Greg Smart, 21 years old. He's two years older than Pamela. He's handsome. He's long hair. I'm gonna really emphasize the long hair here because it is important. - It comes important. - Yes. - But you're like, why, when you get there? - And she falls hard. And then Greg falls for her too. I mean, Pamela Smart is this beautiful, witty, charming, gorgeous woman. And she's got that edgy music taste. - Exactly. - Cool girl. - So Greg and Pamela start a relationship and by February of 1986, they are fully dating. But Pamela is still fully determined to taste her dream. So she goes back to Florida. They start a long distance relationship. - And Pamela, she manages to juggle all of it. So she's the long distance relationship. She has to finish college. She has her radio show. Everything is going to plan. In 1988, 21-year-old Pamela graduated from FSU with her bachelor's in communications. And despite still dating Greg, they managed to make it all the way. It was a new Hampshire working for his dad. Pamela did not make any plans to go back to New Hampshire. She was determined to stay in Florida, follow her dreams. I understand that. That's literally probably her only chance of. - And I also appreciate that about her because I feel like there's so many people who do give up their dreams for a relationship. And she's just like, nope, this is my priority. - Right, but he can move to Florida. - Right, what's keeping him? - Insurance. - There's not like famous broadcast positions in New Hampshire. There are insurance companies in Florida, but not his dads. - Must you be with daddy the whole time? - Okay, anyway, things didn't go as planned. - Yeah. - And up until this point in Pamela's life, things had been pretty easy for her, right? So she always got what she wanted. - Yeah. - And so she expected career wise, she's graduated, she has a degree, she has a look, she's got the personality, her history with the radio show. Like, right, she's got experience. - Everything's gonna fall into place. Like she manifested it. It's gonna magically materialize for her, right? But it was in fact near impossible for her to find a job in broadcasting. So she just kept being rejected, rejected, rejected. And that was really hard for her, because real life and the reality of being an adult just came crashing down on her. - Which I understand. And I think in my older years, my wisdom that I have gathered, it is one of those things where rejection should be seen as redirection. But Pamela was like really frustrated by this. And I think because it was such a difference from what she had experienced her whole life. - Right. Like the redirection part, like I wouldn't necessarily say just because you're getting a few notes means that you're not on the right path. - No, I mean, that wasn't the right company for you. - Oh yeah, yeah. But I also-- - I once heard you get 100 notes for every yes. - Yes. - So I guess like depending on what career, if you're choosing an extremely difficult career path, it's super competitive. I feel like probably FSU did any of this or if this was just fully on Pamela for not really like clocking it. But I feel like they should have put more emphasis on how difficult it is to actually get a career in certain positions. And like eventually prepare students for-- - Here's what I'll say about that. And I think this is just the world that Pamela grew up in. And a lot of this is hearsay and based on testimony, people gave after all the case unfolded, but there were a lot of people who suggested that Pamela was the type of person who didn't take anything less than she thought she deserved. So she wasn't necessarily the type of person who was like, she's not gonna start in the mail room. - Exactly. - Whereas that probably would have worked out for her. And those jobs probably were more available to her than, hey, oh, you graduated college, great. Let's put you on TV right away. - There you go. You're the new host of Good Morning America. - What? - Yeah. - So I feel like she just kind of was not willing to accept things that could have helped her along the path. - Yeah. (dramatic music) - A woman once survived a fall for more than two miles up because she crashed landed on a nest of furious fire ants. A 13th century pope once condemned black cats as these servants of Satan. A lumberjack once revived near decapitation by his own chainsaw. These aren't tall tales. They aren't urban legends. They're real events. I wanna take a quick moment to tell you about the unbelievable, a new podcast from the history channel and rewind studios. Adapted from the hit TV show, every episode opens a cabinet of curiosities to uncover the strangest but true stories in human history then digs into the historical record to show you exactly how and why they happened. Strange people, odd places, peculiar events. When it comes to history, the truth is always more unbelievable than you think. Follow the unbelievable on Apple podcasts, Spotify or ever you listen to podcasts. - Basically, after a few months with no luck, Pamela decided, okay, I'm gonna move back to New Hampshire. So by the end of 1988, Pamela is back in New Hampshire. She's close to her family. And for the first time since dating Greg Smart back in 1986, they're right next to each other. They can actually date in person. But Pamela still carries hope for her dream job. And while she carries that, she does focus more time and energy onto her relationship with Greg. And the two get married in May of 1989. They found a sensible two-story condo in the affluent town of Dairy and settled into their married life. And just a little side note, Greg's parents lived in the same community. - Oh. - Which is also tragic to think about when the crime scene happens. - Yes. - And then they adopted a dog, a little shit zoo, that Pamela named Halen after Van Halen. And they babyed it as if it was their own child. - The first born. - The first born. Life in Dairy was comfortable, but like you've insinuated so many times, it is not bustling with jobs that Pamela is after. - No. I don't think there's a single job Pamela would have wanted. - Right. And even if there are jobs, 'cause of course there's local nuisance up there, not the types of jobs that are gonna give Pamela the fame that she's after. - She's looking for glamour. - She's looking for stardom, the spotlight. - She would have loved TikTok. - Ah, I know. So now this is where things really start to stray from the path that Pamela thought she was on. And I think is a major turning point in the story and case. Without any major media jobs at her whim, Pamela accepts a position as a media coordinator/media services director for the local school district in Hampton, New Hampshire. - And in all regards, it's not a bad job. Like a lot of people would be very excited about this. - Yeah. And anyone who knows New Hampshire knows that Hampton does have things to report on. - Do they? I don't know anything about it. - So like the reputation like Hampton Beach, it's like a little bit easier. - Oh, okay. But they have a great seafood festival every year. - Interesting. - But the fact is about New Hampshire. - But so Pamela's job here would be producing educational videos for the schools in the area and she also got her own secretary. - Which, first job at a college, you have your own secretary? - Dang. - That bougie. I was the assistant to the assistant. Like that was my first job. But she obviously feels this major sense of disappointment. It's not the job she wanted. It's not giving her the visibility or the attention or the fame she wanted. She was supposed to be famous. She was supposed to be a star. But Pamela did do as most people try to in moments of disappointment. She tries to find the bright side. So she's like, if I work as hard as I can and really dive into this work, maybe it will serve as like a stepping stone and like a next step on the ladder to what she actually wants. - But her career was not her only problem. Her relationship, her marriage with Greg was not quite turning out how she expected either. So when she and Greg first fell in love, remember he was very free spirited. They had the same taste in metal music. He had long hair. - Long hair. - But then when they got married, he started to change, right? So he started wearing suits. - He's an insurance business. - He started throwing himself into the company and worse of all, he caught his hair. - Tragic. - According to Pamela. - It is not tragic, but like for a split second, I was like, well, part of me understands when people have beards and then they shave off their beards and they're a different person. - Who are you? - Yeah. - But it doesn't change your love for that person. It just takes visibly, there's an adjustment period to recognize this new face. - I feel like it served as a metaphor for everything else that was going on in her life. - Yeah, like this massive change. - Well, and also she wanted things to be a certain way. And if it like things didn't reflect her, like whatever she painted her dream life. - Her vision board? - Her vision board. - Short hair was not in her vision board, not her husband. - Not on her bingo card for the year. - No, and this is like such a small detail, but basically she was like, okay, he's just like every other person now. Like there's nothing special about Greg. He has short hair. - Insurance business now. - Yeah, he's like every other business guy. So kind of that passion and the excitement for life that she imagined him still having and them having together. - Yeah. - Learning his hair just shattered that whole illusion. He's just a basic, New Hampshire boy, a basic bitch. - It's just a basic bitch. - According to Pamela, right before their first wedding anniversary, Greg, see, this is why we shouldn't be laughing, leaving until now. - I know. - He admitted he was having an affair. Unfortunately, this can't 100% be confirmed because-- - Greg's dead. - Sorry. - To say so bluntly. - But according to Pamela, it is true. If he was having an affair and that he admitted this. So as you can imagine, another fracture to this life that she had built up and imagined for herself. - So Greg, he expresses remorse. He's so sorry. He's full of guilt and regret. And oh my god, what can he do to win her back? He promises to be better. He's gonna be a better partner. He's doubling down on all of this with Pamela. But Pamela is so hurt. As you can imagine. - Yeah. - And she isn't really sure how to process the reality of this disappointment and how her life's turning out. All she knows is she is not happy. - And at this point, Greg is really trying to button up his life and become a responsible adult. And he wants to build a future. That's why he came forward. He confessed to Pamela, according to Pamela. And he wants to start a family with Pamela. He wants to have a child. And I don't know how they didn't talk about this before getting married. Again, a lot of this story is shared by Pamela after the fact. So I don't know the specific details. But apparently they had never talked about it. Greg approaches the topic with Pamela and he's like, "Hey, I just cheated on you, let's have a baby." I mean, not in that way. But like, yeah, he's excited. He wants to have a kid with her and Pamela immediately shuts it down. She's like, "Absolutely not, I do not want children." - Yeah, it's not that she just doesn't want him with Greg. She says she doesn't want kids. - Right. - She's like, no. - Which maybe that was his assumption that just like all women want kids. - Sure. - And so he never brought it up, but like? - Yes, they did it for like a couple of years long distance, but like when she moved back, they got married pretty quickly right away. So they probably didn't have those tough conversations. - Yeah. - Although it's interesting, because like if he knew much about like being a very famous broadcast personality, a lot of them are working super early in the morning. So if you're having kids and your fast is leaving for work at 3 AM, it's gonna be something that you think about. - Well, I don't think Pamela ever like outwardly said this, but I do think that played a major role in like her not wanting kids is that if she had a child, she felt like she would have to give up her career or her dreams. - Yeah. - Which we know is not true. You don't have to give up your dreams and your goals to have children. You can have both. - No, there's just more planning that goes in doing what you're having kids. - Exactly. But either way, she didn't want kids. And now I think we can see by this time in her life, by the fall of 1989, Pamela is struggling. She feels trapped in her marriage. She feels trapped in an unsatisfactory job and just overall is in a life that she feels like she didn't sign up for. - Mm-hmm. - And it's around this time in the fall of 1989. The Pamela is asked to work on a project through her job at the school district and it's called project self-esteem. Which she needed. (laughs) Project self-esteem was a school-affiliated drug awareness and prevention program and operated in New Hampshire during this time. And the purpose of the program was basically to educate students on the dangers of drug use, promote self-confidence, and use peer-to-peer mentoring to educate the students. So it involved a lot of group meetings and planning sessions, presentations, outreach. So students volunteered, adult staff oversaw the operation and it was something to like, throw herself into to really get involved in, right? So her role was media coordinator. She was the perfect candidate to oversee this group. And she worked alongside the students to help produce the media related to it. So like a small little smidge. - Taste. - Yeah. - Of what she really wanted. - Just a little something to give her, to nibble on. - And I do feel like this is an important distinction to make because a lot of people confuse the Pamela smart story saying that she was a teacher and she was not. She was never a teacher to these students. She worked for like the school board and was an adult in a position of power within the school district. - Yes, that part is true, that is very true. But I feel like people play into the trope of like the teacher or student situation which she was never actually a teacher. So Pamela starts attending weekly meetings at the Winnecunnet High School to oversee the group. And it is here that the guidance counselor introduces her to the students in the group and there are a bunch of students. But there is one group in particular that actually take interest in Pamela and then Pamela takes interest in specifically. It's a group of sophomores. All of them 15. And when they first meet Pamela who's 21 at the time, they see her as this young beautiful woman. She's got stories of living in Florida, being a radio host and while Pamela herself like feels like her life is a major disappointment, these high schoolers idolize her. - Right, she's so cool. - So cool. And she likes to say music that they do. Metal music. At 21, Pamela is old enough to seem worldly but young enough to still have some of the same interests as the students. She loves metal bands like Van Halen, the Motley crew. It makes her seem edgy. And Pamela loves to talk to the kids about these shared interests. Also her license plate said Halen like she had like a customized plate. Like she loved Van Halen. That's also her dog name. - What's up with Daring and Ampshire? And everyone liking metal here. - Is that what other people do? - Well, I think it was same in music in '90s. - Yeah, I guess 2000s. And the 2000s I got my iTunes taken away from me because didn't understand like purchasing on iTunes and I bought the entire discography of Queen. - Yeah. - Two in a box. - I was a lime wire girl. - I turned the lime wire and frost wire after that. And then just broke my parents' computer. - Look, see, sorry. - Mark's expensive than two in a box on my iTunes. - Okay, so yeah, to this group of high schoolers, Pamela is a rock star. And I'm sure you can imagine how good this felt to Pamela's ego, where she feels like she's a failure. All of a sudden she's put into a situation where people are idolizing her. She felt important. And I remember when I was in like middle school and high school and I had this one teacher who was like super young, probably right out of college, the boys would propose to her like on a daily basis. - Oh, that's so uncomfortable. - Right, but they were like obsessed with her. - Right. - And I even had like male teachers that I was like, ooh, like he seems cool. - Or just like I feel like younger teachers too are, you feel like they're more relatable to you. And also they're more likely to tell you in life stories that you'll find interesting totally. - They're more recent. - Yes. So yes, Pamela is 21 years old. She is older and in a very different place. Imagine like 21 and 15 are, they feel like worlds apart. You're at a very different place in your life. - You haven't even reached the height that you will be in adulthood. - I was as tall as I am now when I was in like fifth grade. - Okay, but boys, this is not true for boys. - True. Okay, so amongst this specific group of sophomore boys is a 15 year old boy again, 15 years old. His name is William, goes by Billy Flynn. And he takes one look at Pamela and is gobsmacked. - This totally valid and innocent. He's 15, of course, he's allowed to have a crush. - Yeah, he can have crushes. - Yeah. - Adults can't have crushes back on kids. - Yes. - That is extremely inappropriate. But after meeting her, Billy makes every excuse to become closer and closer to Pamela. So we offer us to help out in the classroom, to do errands for her. Anything that could buy him a few extra minutes to talk to her and maybe be alone with her. Pamela is a loving the attention. I'm sure she knew all the rumors about like all the kids having crushes on her. - And probably played into it, 100%. - Yeah. - She wants more attention. Not just from Billy, but from all of the kids. She's eating this up. - And so as a part of her job, the school gives Pamela an intern assistant who is a student. So this is another 15 year old student named Cecilia Pierce. - I just so wish another adult was here. - I know. The thing is that there were other adults around. Cecilia idolizes Pamela. She also wants a career in journalism and saw her future self in Pamela. So again, even though Pamela doesn't see herself as the successful person she wanted, here are all these kids who are now like, oh my gosh, you're everything I wanna be. Which makes her be feel a little less shitty about herself. - Right. - So Cecilia, this job seems like a hurdle on the way to start them. She thought it was exciting. And Pamela loved how much Cecilia looked up to her. Cecilia's role quickly became less of an assistant and more of like a confidant in friend. And slowly but surely the lines between professionalism and friendship blurred. And again, like while Pamela wasn't exactly a teacher, she was absolutely in a position where she should be mentoring the children attending to their needs. But then she started opening up to them. It's like the Susan Polk case. - Yes. - Where the therapist started to confide in her. - His client. - And also just like the need for attention and whatnot. - It's upsetting because it's like she's 21. She's an adult. She shouldn't be doing this. These are kids. But at the same time from like a 15 year old, I can see them being like, okay, well she's the same age as my older brother or something like that, you know? - Yeah. But so while Cecilia starts opening up to Pamela, all of a sudden Pamela starts opening up to Cecilia a 15 year old. And she starts telling her everything. Very candidly talking about her passions, her dreams and her frustrations with her marriage. To Cecilia, that felt exciting. But I think we can all agree. No, I know we can all agree that this is not healthy. It is a violation of like what a teacher or a person in power should ever do with a child. - An adult, maybe just blanket statement there. - Pamela could not get enough from Cecilia or from Billy. And Billy's constantly hanging around, talking to Pamela, and similar to lines being blurred with Cecilia, these lines start being blurred with Billy as well. Billy also has long floppy hair. He'll do the hair would be important. When she looked at him, this 15 year old child, mind you, she saw the kind of guy that she thought Greg was when she first met Greg. And the more time Pamela spent with Billy, the more she started to think about her life as it currently stood. She was not destined to stay here, working in a high school, being a nobody. And maybe, just maybe, this 15 year old Billy Flynn could help her with that. - We all experience petty grievances in life. - A bachelor at party that resulted in a runaway bridesmaid. - A neighbor who has trained their dog to poo in your yard. - An ex friend who writes a semi autobiographical book about your friend group and then kills off your character. So maybe these are complex. completely relatable, but they are all petty crimes we've investigated on our podcast. I'm Griff, your average biracial farm-raised queer actor and retired model who's living and looking for love in Los Angeles. And I'm Kyra, I'm an SNL writer, a movie writer, a comedian, and I'm the only person petty earthen grip. Petty Crimes is a true crime comedy podcast that exclusively investigates noncrimes, meaning real life, low stakes petty drama that's submitted each week by our listeners and ruled on by us. For some weeks, we're joined by comedian friends like Ego Wodom, Gianmarco Sarasi, Chloe Feynman, Sarah Sherman, Jeremy Cole Hayne, Carl Tarte, Lacey Mosley. But most of the time, you're just stuck with us. If you're the type that tells your boyfriend to shh, so you can ease drop on the T-Unfolding at the table next to you, you found your people. Subscribe to Petty Crimes, wherever you get your podcasts. My school crushes are unlike anything else. Love and romance. New things, fresh, unexplored hormones are running unchecked, making you feel like every new feeling is extreme, it's urgent, it's all encompassing. Teenage love burns with a fire that is white hot. It's impossible to more, it's impossible to stop. The heartbeat's fast and wild like a runaway train, and that's how Billy Flynn feels every time he sees Pamela Smart. For months, he hasn't been able to keep himself from her. He lingers at the end of project self-esteem meetings to see if she might need him, maybe to carry her stuff to her car, mix excuses to stop by her office. All of his thoughts are consumed with Pamela's face, her hair, her eyes, her smile. He has no idea if Pamela feels the same way about him. All he knows is that for the last few weeks, they have definitely gotten closer. He's been helping him and his friends on a video assignment about orange juice. Half the time they work on the assignment, but mostly they just talk. The more they spend time together, the more Billy falls in love with Pamela. But he never makes a move. She is an adult, a supervisor of their group after all. And for now, Billy will take what he can get. So on this grey February day of 1990, he shows up at Pamela's office, like always, for the project. But when his eyes meet Pamela's, he almost forgets to breathe. Her gaze is different today. It's charged, intense. It's like she's looking at him in a way that he's been looking at her for a long time. After a few excruciating moments of silence, Pamela asks Billy the question that he has always dreamed of asking her. Do you think about me when I'm not around? Because I think about you all the time. But it is so inappropriate, and now at this time Pamela is 22. Billy is 15. Yeah. We don't need to say anything more. That in itself is wrong. It's actually illegal. This is so upsetting. Okay. So this is just awful, horrendous. Hate it. But yeah, here's Pamela in a position of power. No, she's not in a teacher, but she is working on behalf of the district and is supervising. She's supposed to be supervising this group of high school kids. And Pamela is married. Let us not forget. So it's wrong after wrong after wrong. These are just like major red flags. We should just throw the handcuffs on her already, but unfortunately, we do not. So now with this sentence that Pamela has stated out loud to Billy, 15 years old, she fully begins entertaining a romance with 15 year old Billy Flynn. Also, and before she ever like said and asked Billy, he thinks about her, she had already crossed the lines. She started hanging out with Billy and his friends like going to the mall with them in appropriate. Yeah, wild because she like cares so much about attention and fame and being thought of. This is like wonderful, popular, awesome person. And it's like, did the thought of like shame never cross her mind? Like I would almost think like the fear of being caught and the change of her image might deter her enough from wanting to do this, but it almost seems like she just was so. She was wrapped up in her own like psychological delusion. And I think she just got so obsessed with the attention that nothing else mattered. Kind of seems like a theme for the season, doesn't it? She clearly knew how Billy felt, which is why she asked that question. Yeah. And I'm sure everyone can imagine how 15 year old Billy felt because he was probably freaking out because he was like, oh my god, I felt the same way about you forever. I mean, the first thing he said was I'm in love when he saw her. This is so exciting. And the conversation that followed would change their relation dynamic forever. So it turned first very emotionally intimate so she would confess her feelings. She told Billy that she didn't know what to do because she's already married to her husband Greg, which lets this like highlight this because immediately she presents an obstacle to her and Billy actually being together. She is like, I wish we could be together, but my husband is in the way. Yeah. And Billy left the Pamela's office that day, feeling like he was floating on a cloud, right? He's so close to being with her. They didn't kiss or anything. They didn't even hold hands. But to him, the future is so bright, right? Like this is his future girlfriend. They're basically together already. And Pamela essentially told him that she feels the exact same way, just in maybe a little different way than Billy. Yeah. In her mind, I think. Yeah. There's a lot more strategy here. There's something else to play. And so now I think we could take a minute to talk about Billy Flynn because this is a really big deal for him. Like, he also didn't have the easiest upbringing. And so I think this attention from Pamela also gave him something he was missing for some time in his life. Well, and also like, let's think about his friends. He was very vocal. There's other people that are hanging out with them out like in the mall and stuff. And so he's probably getting a lot of validation and attention from his friends too. So we're all egging it on exactly like I doubt that there was much vocalized concern, right? And as we'll see in a bit like everyone in this group seemed to like really idolize Pamela. It's not just Billy. So Billy was born and raised in New Hampshire in a middle class family. And unfortunately, he did face a lot of abuse at the hand of his father who tragically, when Billy was just 13 years old, so two years before meeting Pamela, he died in a tragic motorcycle accident. So this fractured the like kind of already false version of stability he had, but it's shattered. His father is now dead. Now his mom has to pick up multiple jobs in order to make ends meet. And Billy didn't really know how to process the loss. And he didn't really have anyone to talk to about it or to lean on. So he began getting into trouble. He became impulsive, directionalist. And Billy's mom once reported that despite Billy appearing to be a great, easygoing kid, he apparently had a temper at home, like there was a darker side to him. He and his friends would break into cars. They would commit petty crimes. And they started goofing off in school to the point where and I really do appreciate this authority figures and school staff members did intervene, which is why Billy ended up in project self. Yeah. And I was just going to say, like if you think about the kids that could put in here, first, it was kind of like, Hey, you used to get such great grades. Like we know that you're dealing with the loss of your father. We can't force you to do this because this is like a volunteer based group, but please join us. It could be good for you. Yeah. So him and his friends all joined it. So psychologically from the ages 13 to 15, the adults and Billy's life had been in his mind treating him like a child, not really showing up for him in the way that he needed. And so when he starts to screw up and he meets Pamela, an adult who treats him like an equal and gives him attention, validation and purpose that he wanted, he becomes so willing to do what she asks of him. Is she an adult treating him like an equal or is she pretending to be a kid? That's also my question. Right. Does she seem like an equal because she's acting childish? Being super inappropriate and acting like a child. Yep. Anyway, Billy was not the only person who felt this way, right? So like we mentioned before, Pamela began to fully integrate herself into Billy's life. She was befriending his friends, hanging out with them all, hanging out with them. Just the image of them going to the mall together is crazy. Yeah. I could not fathom even if like a bunch of kids maybe feel like the coolest person in the world. I could not fathom getting my butt out of bed on a weekend to go hang out with them out of malls. I was going to walk through journeys like what? That's like you could anyway. No, I was living a happy hour at that point. There's no way. Okay. So of course, like obviously the integration into the front group, but then there was also Cecilia Pierce, right? So Pamela's intern who is a child, another 15 year old, there's Patrick, Pete Randall. There's Vance, JR, La Time, Jr. and Raymond Fowler. And they, like you were saying, all of them idolized Pamela. They are just so infatuated with her. And basically they seem kind of like desperate or like willing to do anything to be just as cool as Pamela. But I don't know if you can relate to it, but I can. Like when I was in middle school, like I just desperately wanted to be accepted and seen as cool. Like I feel like I, and also at that time, like you're still figuring out who you are. I'll speak for myself. Like you're trying to step into a role in a way. And I feel like I've been over backwards to kind of like make people like me. I wanted that. Yeah. You don't really, I can tell. I don't really do it. But like I can in a way, like I don't think I relate in the way that the kids at my school operated as much. I also want to. like a kind of hippie school. We really called every teacher brother first name and it like-- - The Vermont of you. - It was like semi-blurred because everyone was treated. But you already came in almost with the respect that he felt like he hadn't gotten anywhere in his life was already kind of built into our school district where it's like most teachers went by their first name. Like it was very much like I treat you like an equal and you're an adult to prepare you for the world to like hold your own. - Yeah, I mean also like even with my sister, like I was like so desperate, like be cool in the eyes of my sister. Like I was like, like love me, you know? - I'm pleased to say that would be like seed. - Yeah, so all these kids were feeling that way towards Pamela. - Yeah, we understand. She was older, she was cool, she was edgy and she was also giving them the validation that they so desperately wanted. So like she's feeding into it too, right? And pretty much every single one of these kids, all five of them would do anything to keep that validation from her. And it's so unfair too. 'Cause like if you think about the kids backgrounds that are like, yes, it's volunteer based so maybe not everyone has some hardships in their childhood but like a lot of the kids are going there to have this sort of like redirection in their life and she's praying on it. - Exactly. - So she basically manipulated them and their desire for attention and affection and use that to coerce them into doing whatever she wanted. So basically she groomed Billy and she groomed his friends. - All of them. - Yeah, all of them. It didn't even start with Billy. Okay, so now it's February of 1990. Pamela has made it very clear. She has feelings for 15-year-old Billy Flynn and she has also made it very clear that the only thing standing in the way is her husband Greg smart, planting the seeds. - Yep. - Her and Billy spend more and more time together but at first they don't cross any physical boundaries. I mean, all lions have been crossed at this point except for the physical. Pamela continues to complain about her relationship with Greg. She tells Billy that Greg cheated on her, that he's controlling and manipulative. So she's painting Greg as a villain to Billy and how is Billy to know anything else? - No, and he's probably just becoming more and more angry on her behalf or like you believe, what she's in thought, why would she lie to him? - And also now he's in a role of comforting her. Like if Pamela's crying to 15-year-old Billy, Billy who loves her is like, "Yeah, let me take care of you, let me help you. I'm so sorry, I wish I could fix this for you." - Yeah, I want to protect you. - And it seemed like the more that Pamela complained about her husband, the closer her and Billy became. Their bond was growing closer and closer until one afternoon. Pamela is hanging out with Billy at his house on his bed, listening to Motley Crew, and they finally kissed. - That is just like so wild to me. And like how did Billy's mom allow an adult into her child's room? - Unfortunately, she didn't know because remember Billy's dad had just recently died. She had two kids. She's had to pick up a lot of jobs, so I think at the time she was not home. - How did Pamela not feel so awkward? Like, oh my gosh. - That's the biggest thing about this. Like I cannot in any way put myself in Pamela's shoes. - No. Like her heart rate had to be increased, right? Like she knew she was doing something wrong. - She had to. - Right. - Unfortunately, there were no adult present enough in Billy's life to know about this relationship or tell him that it was dangerous and unhealthy and intervene. And also Pamela made sure that no one else knew. Except Cecilia or 15-year-old assistant, which we'll get to more on that. - Before she gets in she groomed. - Yes. - Either way, the relationship between 22-year-old Pamela and 15-year-old Billy is now like, fully violating all boundaries, all lines, and it is fermented. - Yeah. And at every step, Pamela would tell Billy just how unhappy she was in her marriage. That was something that came up time and time and time again. And how much she liked Billy. And it was impossible for her to picture a world without Billy. Like they should be together. And then in March of 1990, while Greg was out of town for a work conference, Pamela actually invited Billy and Cecilia, the two of them, over to her condo to watch a movie. So she, an adult woman with her husband out of town, invited two children over to her condo to watch a movie together. And even where she picked a steamy rated R film called Nine and a Half Weeks, about a woman who has a passionate affair with a man, and extremely inappropriate movie to watch with two underage teenagers. But obviously Pamela didn't care about that and neither did Cecilia or Billy, who were probably excited to watch a rated R movie. - Right. - Like there was like this thrill about it. Ooh, again, Pamela is so cool. She's letting us watch this. She's inviting us to her condo, like how sophisticated an adult. And after they watched the movie, Pamela asks Cecilia if she wouldn't mind walking her dog, Halen. So Cecilia takes the dog out of the house. And with Cecilia gone, Pamela brings Billy upstairs into her bedroom. She changes into lingerie and recreates the strip tease from the movie they had just watched. And I feel like we all know where this is going, but like major content warning. For the first time, she and Billy have sex. It was the first time Billy had ever had sex with anyone to let us be very, very clear. Billy is a minor. And the first time he is ever having sex is statutory rape. - I wanna throw up. - And this is why I said that part and you didn't. - I know, yeah. We've learned for past episodes that you have to say some of our stuff. - But for Billy, this is a sign that this relationship is the real deal. And it endears him to Pamela even more. He's like, we are in love. We are destined to be together. - What they didn't know at the time. - So Cecilia actually returned from walking the dog and she was kind of witness to this. She went upstairs, she peered into the bedroom and she saw everything. But clearly that didn't really matter because Pamela and Cecilia are friends, right? - Well, she invited her over and then like sent her outside, like walking a dog doesn't take that long. - Right, it's weird. She's like, Pamela doesn't care about getting caught clearly. - And also I just have so many questions about like, what did she want from Cecilia? Like it almost feels like the lines were about to cross there too 'cause she also was showing her the explicit film. Like why the two of them? Why did Cecilia need to be there at all? - It feels like a manipulative tactic to try to like normalize it to Cecilia. - But for what reason? - But to make sure she has control over Cecilia too. - It's just all wrong. It's just all wrong. So after this night, Pamela and Billy started meeting regularly to have sex. Their relationship escalated. And in a few ways, so basically we know physically it escalated, but also so did Pamela's grooming and the tactics that she was using. So she began to complain more and more about her marriage with Greg. And this time she really would emphasize how cruel Greg was. It wasn't just that she's unhappy. He's in the way of them two being together. It was, he's this terrible person to me and I'm scared and she'd cry to Billy and she would tell him that Greg hit her that he was threatening her. - Right, so now it's no longer just she's upset and unhappy in the marriage. She's painting Greg as even more villainous and dangerous. - Yeah, which like, that wasn't true. - Right, as far as we know. - As far as we know that, yeah. So she was lying. Billy would then encourage her to leave Greg because he's 15. It seems more black and white, Pam. Like if you're unhappy, if this person's scary and hurting you, leave, right? And she's like, it doesn't work like that. Greg made it very clear if she ever tried to divorce him, he would leave her with absolutely nothing and that he would follow her all over town and make it impossible for her to ever move on to ever have a boyfriend. Basically like she couldn't divorce him or he would ruin her life and like stalk her forever. So that was basically her reasoning to this 15 year old Billy as to why she couldn't leave. - And I think it is important to say that we don't know whether or not these are true. Again, because Greg is not here to tell his side of the story. I do think that Greg and Pamela, based on testimonies, they did fight a lot to the point where Pamela and Greg would like call Greg's parents and like complain about one another a little bit. So it wasn't the healthiest relationship in terms of communicating with another. - Yeah. - Well, and I'm just thinking about like on the weekends when you're normally wanting to spend time with your family or your spouse. She's going to the mall to hang out with 15 year olds. Like almost middle schoolers. Like they're barely into high school. - So all we do know is that Pamela was very unhappy in her marriage and wanted out of it and starts to tell Billy that he could save her. Only Billy could save her. Do you want to know how? Well, Pamela told Billy that Billy had to get rid of Greg for her. - Yeah. And so Billy at first is like, okay, this is just a dramatic phrase, right? Like this is just some weird joke. It's a joke. It's a dramatic comment she's making because how could she possibly be asking me to kill her husband? Like that's just in the movies, right? That doesn't make any sense. But now that is exactly what Pamela was asking Billy to do. In fact, she continued making comments like this. Even going as far as telling Billy that the only way that two of them could ever be together is if Greg is dead. So huge emphasis on him being killed and dead. Then a few months into their relationship, Pamela said she wouldn't have sex with Billy anymore unless he agreed to do the job of killing her husband. And that if he really loved her, he would do this for her. (dramatic music) - Did you know the most feared pirate in the Atlantic, the man who terrorized an entire ocean for years, may never have actually killed anyone? Or that the real Golden Age of Pirates It was the most democratic workplace in the world. Western world. I'm Connor Tomlinson from Love on the Spectrum, and history is my thing. And I'm Carter Roy, and this is what the fact. Every week we take the most unbelievable true things in history and tell you the whole story behind them. Carter sets the scene, Connor brings the facts, the deep cuts, and the genuine belief that this is the most interesting subject in the world. It is. This is the history lesson. You actually wished you had in high school. New episodes every Wednesday follow what the fact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or subscribe on YouTube at what the fact pod. This is why it's so strategic on Pamela's part. She took the time to basically make Billy fall so deeply in love with her that he would do anything for her. And remember Billy used to show up in the classroom, being like, what can I help you with? Can I carry your stuff to the car or like, how can I help you? What favor is can I do? And slowly over time Pamela would take and take and take and make it normal. Normalize him doing favors for her. This is like not a favor though. This is no, but this threat of losing Pamela is like so terrifying to Billy now at this point that he would rather kill Greg than lose Pamela. Right. Because now she's also like, like, I'm sure to him it's not about sex. It's about just like feeling accepted and intimacy too. So it's like she's threatening to rip away everything. Also he's 15. He has just had sex for the first time like already that is such a complicated relationship. And like the hormones and the like weight impacts your brain and the chemicals that are flowing. Like, and I'm sure part of him knew that there wasn't something quite right with this. So he's, yeah. Oh my gosh. But he said he would do it. He said he would kill Greg. So with that agreement, they begin planning immediately. I'm sure Pamela had put so much thought into this already, but she's like, and there are a lot more details and information regarding the specifics of the plans and the attempts that came forth in the trial. But we'll talk about them briefly. So there are three attempts that we know of. Pamela knew she had to have an alibi. So she looked at her calendar and she found an evening that had a school district meeting. So the plan was for Billy and his friend. Yes. Billy and his friend. It required Billy bringing in people to go attack Greg smart as he exited his vehicle while Pamela was at this meeting. Pamela tells Billy he needs a gun. So Billy recruits his friend Raymond to help him. When they couldn't track down a gun, they decided to use a hunting knife. But on the night of the plan murder, Billy and Raymond lose their nerve. They couldn't do it. Which of course, they know it's wrong. Yeah. But when Pamela gets home from her meeting to find her husband is still very much alive, she is furious. And as you can expect, and as Pamela has exhibited already, she turns it on Billy and she's like, clearly, you don't love me. You would have done this if you loved me. That's so messed up. Yeah. And I'm also just thinking about like, like his friends coming in, like, what are they? But they've already also been groomed by Pamela. Right. I know. But they they were just doing petty crimes before this. This is so much bigger. So Billy after hearing this and like being basically like berated and threatened by Pamela, right? The person he loves. He's now apologizing profusely. He promised he would do it. And this brings us to murder plot attempt number two. So this plan was a little bit more thought out. And it's actually pretty close to what eventually did end up happening. So again, the plan had to be executed on an evening where Pamela would be busy specifically with the school district. So there was another school district meeting. But this time Billy and his friends would sneak into Pamela's house before Greg got there and wait for him, rob the place and then kill Greg when he returns. So the thought is making it look like a burglary gone wrong, which in the very beginning, that is that the crime scene kind of read as initially. So on the night of the planned murder, Billy and his friends drove to the smart condo, but something was wrong. Greg was already home. So again, they had to bail on the plans because it wouldn't it wouldn't quite work out. Right. They were supposed to be there before Greg got home. Pamela, be serious. Why is Greg alive? So she again blew up at Billy. And now we are at April of 1990 and Billy is begging Pamela to give him one more chance because she's like, I can't believe you failed me twice. Like this is you clearly don't love me. She's holding sex still like she's very abusive, but she agreed that she'd give him one more chance if he promised to not let her down. I also just, I mean, it breaks my heart thinking of Greg being at home and two boys just pulled out outside and he's like going about his life normally. And these two boys were going to kill him. Yeah. Like this whole time like, I just feel so bad for him. True crime is rough. It is. Okay. So this brings us to the third and final and tragic murder of Greg smart. This time though, Billy decides he needs more help. So he brings in all of his friends, the same group that had already been groomed and endeared to Pamela. It's Raymond, Cecilia, J.R. and Pete, five teenagers all agree to do this for Billy for Pamela. And at first when Billy brought it up to Cecilia, she thought he was joking like she was like, what? We're not going to kill Pamela's husband. But then Billy told her it was very, very real and she doesn't shy away from it. Well, because also the narrative being pushed as she's in danger. So they're trying to save their friend. Yes. And also now Cecilia is almost like team Pamela and Billy because Cecilia views Pamela as a friend. They've been talking about her relationship with Billy. She was there the first time they ever got together. Like she feels really exactly semi responsible or like a part of the relationship somehow. So now the planning truly begins Pamela, Billy, Cecilia, J.R. Raymond and Pete put it together. Pamela again tells them they need a gun because the night was too messy. Plus Pamela didn't want Greg's blood all over her beautiful leather couch. Like this also just shows how selfish Pamela is. Cecilia said she knew where they could get a gun. She knew apparently of a woman who kept one in the glove box. And remember the boys used to break into cart. So like, oh, they'll just break into her car. They do break into the car. But when they open the glove box, there's no gun. So they're like, shoot, where do we get a gun? J.R. knew his dad kept a gun in their home. So he offered to steal it for the crime with that sorted out. Pamela instructed them once again that on the night of May 1st 1990, she would be attending a school meeting. And it was then while she was at the meeting, the teenage boys would sneak into Pamela's condo. She would leave the back door unlocked for them. They would ransack the place, wait for Greg to get home. And once he came home, they were to kill him and get out of there. She also told them once they get out of there, she would handle the rest. Her stipulations were as follows. Do you not turn the lights on and do not hurt the dog? Simple enough, right? Yeah, it's just so mind blowing that it does remind me a little bit of the slunderman case, like in the sense that these are still children who don't necessarily understand the repercussions of their actions. Well, I just keep thinking about how it took three attempts for it to actually happen. Like, there was so much room for people to have found out what was going on or someone to step forward, someone to ask a question. And the fact that it just was able to continue for so long, like, it does feel like Pamela was invincible and could get away with anything. Because I keep coming back to like, what was the true motive for her? Like, if she just left her husband normally, I think she convinced herself she couldn't, I don't know, because it's not like she cares about reputation, right? Because if she did, she wouldn't be raping a 15-year-old. I can't speak to the psychology because I do not relate to it, but I'm sure there is someone out there who has done a full psychological analysis on Pamela's smart. Right. Okay. So May 1st, 1990, around 8 p.m. while Pamela is at the school district meeting, Billy, Pete, JR, and Raymond climbed into JR's van and drove to Pamela's smarts condo. Just like they did the first or the first second time. Yeah. A second condo attempt, I guess. At around 8.30 p.m. they park outside the darkened condo and Billy and Pete make their way around back. Well, JR and Raymond are staying in the car as look out. They reach the back door, it's unlocked, because Pamela kept it unlocked, promised that's how they would be able to get in. Billy and Pete immediately collect Haylan, the dog, and put Haylan in the basement, which I am glad that Haylan was locked away, but it's just like this whole thing is so sad. It's so, oh, yeah. Just the whole, yeah, it's the whole thing. Everything about this case is setting and wrong. So the dog is now in the basement and this is when they begin to ransack the condo. They threw whatever they could find onto the ground, they pocketed a couple of pieces of jewelry, trying to make it seem like a robbery, trying to make it seem more legit. Billy and Pete also grabbed a few larger pieces of electronic equipment and they dragged them to the back door to make it look like they were in the process of removing them and then were interrupted, right? Because that's the whole thing. Yeah. Staging. Yeah. The boys actually found this part quite fun, because they haven't done anything technically illegal yet because they were led in by the homeowner. It also shows how detached they are from the reality of it. Right. Yeah, it's the theatrics of it all for them and like this part seems fun. So they get to throw stuff around, they get to break whatever they want, just teenage boys running them up in this condo with full permission to do it. Like that seems great. But by 9 p.m., the reality of why they're there begins to sink in. So they to finish the rant. and now they just had to sit there and wait for Greg to return home. Like, the amount of, I don't know the exact amount of time that they had a wait, but like, it feels like enough time where they should have been like, this is what are we doing? Yeah, we can't do this. They took their positions in the dark, Billy behind the door, Pete on the stairs, and they waited. I'm like literally thinking about when you play hide and seek and the anxiety you get hiding, waiting for your person to find you, like, that's the anxiety I have playing hide and seek. Right. The feelings, they must be feeling in this moment. Oh my gosh. Even the people sitting in the car and like, see him pull in and get home, like, yeah, I just can't believe no one panicked and, but like, again, you made the comparison to the slender man case, and it's like psychologically, like, they're just so deep in to this, like a new world and narrative that's been spun around them, but it's like impossible to backtrack out of it. Yeah. So while they're waiting, they're debating how to kill Greg. They consider bludgeoning him with a heavy looking candlestick, but very quickly, they abandon that idea and they drop the candlestick onto the floor. So this is before Greg has even entered the home. But if you remember from the original crime scene that you narrated in the beginning, the candlestick that was found next to Greg's body. Soon after, they hear Greg's car pull into the driveway and they hold their breath waiting. The second Greg opens the door and turns on the foyer light, Billy jumps on top of him and Pete is not far behind. In seconds, they have knocked Greg to the floor and they are like fully fighting. Greg tries to resist and according to the boys, even tried to give them his wallet because he truly thought he was being robbed and he was like, take it, please, like, take it. Also, you're not expecting it to be teenage boys either. I'm sure he was. Yeah. Oh, yeah. This next piece of information breaks my heart. It is one of those facts in this case that's like been up for debate. It does feel very dramatic, but apparently in the rush of adrenaline, Billy demands that Greg give him his wedding ring, but apparently Greg wouldn't do it. And he said, verbatim, my wife would kill me. Ugh, just that sentiment in itself is so tragic and like in his final moments, he is thinking of what his wife would think, which really explains a lot here, right? Yeah. So Billy and Pete weren't actually there to rob him. They were there for one thing to murder Greg smart. They had planned it for months, even made multiple other attempts that we talked about. And finally, here Billy was J.R.'s father's 38 caliber revolver in his hand. All he had to do was pull the trigger. I cannot fathom in this moment. I hope to never understand it. But according to Billy, he and Pete got Greg up on his knees and Billy pressed the gun to Greg's temple. And according to Billy, he swallowed fearful and he said the words, God, forgive me, and then pulled the trigger, killing Greg in one shot. Within seconds, he and Pete sprinted out the back door, racing to the van where J.R. and Raymond were waiting. The four boys sped out of the suburb into the night away from the scene. And they didn't just drive off in silence, like this sentence itself, I think, describes the mental state they were in in the lack of understanding of the severity of it, because as they drove off, they turned on Metallica's seek and destroy and jammed out to the song. Like it was any other night. Yeah. I know that this has nothing to do with this case, but like in a way, it reminds me slightly of Stranger Things, where it's like all these kids are dealing with the most traumatic thing ever. And like mass murdering a bunch of people in the name of saving their friend. Yeah. But that again, is fiction. Yeah. This is reality. While the boys fled, Pamela is wrapping up the school meeting, right? So she's leaving. She doesn't rush on her way home. It's a little after 10 PM when she finally does get home and finds her condo ransacked. The dog is locked in the basement and Greg's dead body is on the floor. Finally, Billy has followed through the plan that he had promised to her, right? But it's not over yet because she has to sell the thing. She said she'd take care of everything after the fact and now it's her time to shine. Pamela screamed. She ran out of the house. She was knocking on several neighbor's doors as she shrieked into the night that her husband was dead. She was distraught. She was frantic. She's crying. One of the neighbors calls the police hearing her. And as the officers enter her home, Pamela knew exactly what they would find inside. She made sure of it. Her husband's murder, just like everything else in her life, was perfectly organized and planned out. Or so she thought. I mean, the performance that she had to, like she walked inside. Because, keep in mind, before this, Billy and his friends had not followed through. So she's not really certain. She walks in, sees her husband's body like, it's psychotic to me. And to have to then be so numb about the fact that this person that you married and once were in love with is dead on the floor and then turn on this like acting. Because for all we know, there was no real abuse or anything that she could use as an excuse for. Yeah. So she thinks it's all perfectly working out. And her plan will go as she had thought it would. And yes, it did look like a botched burglary. But right away, the police can tell that there's something not right about the scene. Like we said in the beginning, the first thing that stands out to them is the way that Greg was killed because burglaries don't usually involve guns. And according to the dairy police, robbers usually aren't armed. They want to break in, get the stuff and leave. If they do have a weapon, it's usually a knife, not a gun. According to the responding officers, it seems strange that a robber would be carrying a gun at all, let alone decide to use it in an execution style slaying. And then the second far stranger part of this was Pamela herself. The second the police finished their search of their condo, she goes up to them insisting that she speak to them. She incites us. And obviously they're like, yeah, we were going to talk to her and get her witness testimony. But the way that she's so insistent on it, when she's supposed to be this like grieving person, right? Like, but now she's suddenly a part of this murder investigation from the gecko and has her own theory. Yeah, she's emphasizing the burglary gone wrong. And she tells them that the first thing she noticed when she went home was the electronics piled up against the back door. So it must be a burglary, which the cops are like, I'm sorry, the first thing you notice is the electronics piled up at the back door, not your husband's dead body, or like your dog missing, unless she let the dog out of the basement, which I don't think she did. No, she didn't. Yeah, just so weird and obviously investigators catch on to this right because it's super weird reaction. Like a couple of like red flags, which like at first they're like, okay, maybe it's just like her weird response to this traumatic event. Yeah. Her weird response is, is basically like the whole Amanda Knox case. I know. That she didn't behave and react in the hours and days after her roommate was murdered in the way that people expected her to, and so she must be the killer. Yeah. It is hard because it's like, it's hard to judge. Although the majority of people respond in a few different ways, which is like the psychology of it. Like, whole professions dedicated to understanding how people respond to this emotional trauma or how killers respond after murder and all of this. But anyway, so that was a detail that stuck out in the investigators minds. Yeah. And not once during the interview, did Pamela ever refer to Greg as her husband? She simply called him the body, which is so detached, so shocking. And it got weirder when two days later, the police came with Pamela to look at the condo so she could pick up some clothes for herself because it was an active investigation so she couldn't just live there and also had not been cleaned. Pamela did not seem to have any issue stepping over the large dark brown stain of blood on the floor to get to what items she needed in her home. And this wasn't just like, she stepped over once and maybe like blacked out, it was multiple times of her going back and forth over, yeah, where her husband had just been shot and killed. Right. She's your science of like suspicious behavior. And Pamela seemed incredibly comfortable with reporters and she starts talking to anyone she can after this tragedy of her husband's death, anyone and everyone. Because finally here Pamela is, she's on TV. She's the center of attention. She gets to tell her story. Everyone is looking at her and it is becoming a sensational story. Her face is literally everywhere. And even though the police were like, okay, she's a little suspicious and this was shady, Pamela had an alibi. A million witnesses for her alibi too. She's not just like, oh, yeah, I was watching a TV show and I had a call with my mom. But so the police were like, if Pamela did this, we need to collect way more evidence to actually prove it. Yeah. On June 10th, 1990, a little over a month after Greg was killed, the police found the murder weapon or actually it was handed to them. I appreciate this part of the story so much because it's like the thing that you had wished happened so many times before and the amount of time that they had leading up to the crime. Yeah. But still, it's happening. So in the days following the crime, J.R.'s dad couldn't help but feel like he had heard the names. smart before in their home. So then he was thinking about it and it clicked because the victim's wife was Pam smart and Pam was volunteering with his son and he was aware that they had been hanging out a lot recently, spending a lot of time together. So that had always struck him as strange. He was clocking that originally, but it got a lot stranger. As Greg's murder continued to get more media attention, he started noticing his son behaving really differently. So his son was now more rowdy, a lot more cocky all of a sudden, which is like extra weird if like your like mentors husband was just murdered. That doesn't seem like the appropriate response to that. So JR's dad was paying attention and he actually overheard him boasting about being involved in the homicide. So suddenly a horrible picture started to be painted for JR's dad and he knew the victim had been shot and falling a hunch. He went to go look at his guns because he overheard his son talking about being involved. His son's acting weird and cocky. He has guns. So he's like, let me go say, let me go check. And this confirmed his hunch. All of his guns were in the correct place, but one of his guns was very shiny and clean, way too clean. As if it had recently been cleaned and he knew he had not cleaned it. So he brought the 38 caliber revolver to the place and sure enough, it matched the bullet used to kill Greg smart and the police finally had their murder weapon. And what I appreciate about this and this is like, I can't even imagine as a parent like the complexity of this, like he's heard that JR got involved. He now knows like or sees this gun before bringing it to the police. He has the decision of like, if this is the murder weapon and I turn in, that means my son is involved and is going to get caught for this. Yeah. Like this decision of do I protect my child or turn them in. I can imagine is very, very difficult. Yeah. In a way, turning him in is protecting him because if you don't and that's true. Venus festers and he doesn't get any treatment for what he just went through. That's true. Does he just escalate and ruin the rest of his life? Or do you say something to your son and say, what did you do? And then you're killed in the middle of the night. Right. No, I am grateful. I'm very grateful that like this is one parent that really did step in. Unfortunately, it's late, but if anyone hasn't read the book defending Jacob, it's such a good one. Yeah. Okay. So shortly after JR's dad turns the gun in, the police arrest Billy, Pete, JR and Raymond. And it does not take long for the true story to emerge that the mastermind was actually Pamela smart. The only problem is they don't have any evidence to prove that, but they know how to get it. There is one person who can help them get Pamela. A teenage girl named Cecilia Pierce. Cecilia Pierce sits at a table staring intently at the telephone in front of her. Without thinking, she wipes her clammy palms on the front of her jeans. She tries slowing her breathing. Cecilia thinks to herself, it's just a phone call, just like a regular phone call, like any other day, but she knows today is different. Looking up from the table, she sees the small group of police officers sitting around her. One of them gives her a reassuring thumbs up, as I have to say, don't worry. Cecilia didn't want to do this. She was loyal to Pamela. Pamela smart was her friend, and Cecilia was determined to protect her, but slowly she saw the truth. Her mother and the police made her realize that Pamela didn't actually care about her. The only person Pamela cared about was Pamela. And if Cecilia didn't come forward, then her friends would take all the blame, and so too would she. So Cecilia folded and finally told the police everything. About Pamela's relationship with Billy, her plan to kill her husband, and how she involves not just Cecilia and Billy in the plot, but three other boys from high school. The police believe Cecilia. They know she's telling the truth, but they also said that they need more tangible proof. They need Pamela to incriminate herself. And that is where Cecilia comes in. They need Cecilia to get Pamela to talk. So she dials a number to Pamela's phone, presses the speaker phone button, and waits. Suddenly one of the police officers hits record on a tape recorder placed next to the phone. When Pamela answers, she's as talkative as ever. The Cecilia can actually hardly get a word in at first. Pamela launches into her complaints about how much she's been bugged by reporters, how hard it is for her to get work now, and how she hopes that they'll just leave her alone. Pamela is in a very chatty mood, and that's good, so Cecilia chimes in. Seeing what happened, wouldn't you rather have just divorced Greg and Pamela laughs? No, she says. Nothing was going wrong until JR started blabbing to his friends. If JR had just shut his trap, it would have been the perfect murder. Now his dad turned in the gun and things are royally screwed. Cecilia's breath catches in her throat. Pamela had just outright said the perfect murder. Cecilia steals the glance at the cops, who motioned for her to keep going. So Cecilia sighs, trying to match Pamela's frustration. She brings up the police and how she doesn't really know what to tell them. And Pamela interrupts Cecilia and tells her to avoid talking to the cops as much as she can. But Cecilia pushes back, but wouldn't that be more suspicious? Wouldn't it be better to just talk to police rather than hide from them? But Pamela's vague, elusive, and direct, careful to not implicate herself. And by the end of the call, Cecilia thinks they have enough. But police inform her, but they do not. If they want to implicate Pamela's smart, it isn't going to be over the phone. It will have to be face to face, which means the next step is far more dangerous. They need Cecilia to wear a wire and to sit across from Pamela in person. I mean, I cannot even fathom the anxiety and the pressure that Cecilia must have felt. Like in her mom, too, to know that she's sending her 15-year-old daughter to face a murderer. Right. Pamela is dangerous. And finally, also, Cecilia, the false version of Pamela that she once saw is no longer real. And so she probably has a lot of hatred for Pamela, but she has to go and pretend to be friends with her still. And wear a wire. Did you ever watch the interview, or like the police interview? I guess like maybe you could call it an interrogation of the Craigslist killer who was here in Boston. And his girlfriend, maybe she was a fiance at that point. It's really, it's so sad, but it's really fascinating to watch her sit down, the video of like, her sitting down with the police and going through like all of the details. And you see her go from like, disbelief and what's happening. Like, I need to get to him to like, to realize and like, fearing him and being like, can you help me escape? Yeah. So now, poor Cecilia has to face Pamela. And she knows that she has to like get this information from Pamela, or she herself might end up facing jail time too, which is like, both the circumstances are pretty shitty, but I'd rather go wear a wire, right? So Cecilia wore a wire multiple times with Pamela. It's not just once. She does it multiple times. She's instructed not to interrogate Pamela, but to like act like everything is fine. Let Pamela do the talking over the course of multiple in-person conversations. Pamela is very careful. She never outwardly confesses. She never states that she planned it all, but she did make a few mistakes. She spoke about the murder as a shared problem, as in like, we us, if they hadn't, we would be fine. We implies that she's involved. She also had knowledge that the police otherwise hadn't made public, like the gun belonging to JR's dad. She minimized Greg's death, focused on the media attention and damage control, like never once in any conversation that was recorded with Cecilia. Did she express remorse or sadness that her husband was dead? Not once. He was just the body, right? Yeah. She also told Cecilia to lie, and so like, despite no actual confession, the police through all of these recorded conversations were like, we have enough to implicate her as knowing what was going on and being involved. So on August 1st, 1993, months to the day, since the murder, the lead investigator walks into Pamela's office and does the most like badass arrest ever. He walks in, acting casual. He was like, what's up, Pamela? He's like, I have some good news. I also have some bad news. The good news is that we solved your husband's case. The bad news is that Pamela, you are under arrest for your husband's murder. Like how? Oh, I probably know. It's so good to say that. Yeah. Love that. How many times do you think he practiced in the air or in his head? Oh, so good. Pamela was charged with being an accomplice to first degree murder, and she was arrested there at school and taken to jail where she would wait to start trial. So now Pamela, Billy, JR, Pete, and Raymond were all in custody facing criminal charges. Cecilia was the only person spared from potential jail time, and that was really thanks to her in helping in the investigation. But with five people in jail for this one single crime, the lead-up to Pamela's trial was an enormous media friend. The story of the black widow murderress spread across the country like wildfire and all the while Pamela Still played the role of helpless victim. She pleaded not guilty to her charges She completely denied having any involvement in the death of her husband She basically like squarely blamed it on these boys Teen boys teenagers One of what she previously spent months telling that she loved him and that she wanted to be with him and it became very clear That she never actually cared at all about Billy on the way that he thought at least and while she professed innocence to the media And to anyone who would listen the boys decided to go another route. Yep. On January 28th 1991 Billy, J.R. and Pete all pleaded guilty to second degree murder They made it like an agreement. They were like we will plead guilty to second degree murder in exchange for testifying against Pamela, so just as like legal drug and if you want to know a conviction of first degree murder came with a mandatory life sentence in the state of New Hampshire But second degree didn't so this was like a lesser sentencing for all of them They all agreed that they wanted to have some chance to live part of their lives in society instead of spending the rest of their lives behind bars very understandable and Cecilia also agreed to testify on behalf of the prosecution So this trial is shaping up to be the doozy like it feels like they have all these witnesses who are going to help Confect Pamela and get a guilty verdict and it's also a spectacle This becomes one of the first trials in the United States to be fully televised Do you want to know what the first one was? Oh my god. Yeah back in 1979. Yeah. I just keep thinking about the project Self-esteem that wouldn't it's called great project self-esteem and if that continued on because this while it doesn't Say much about the actual project it feels like such a failure of the project that like one of the appointed leaders Yeah, led people who were there to be put on the right path into the exact opposite I'm pretty sure it only went on for two years So it probably did stop very shortly after this case in trial was Extremely popular with viewers all over the country. There were television crews and reporters on that descended on the Rockingham County Superior court In the small town of Brentwood New Hampshire where the trial was going to take place and everyone wanted the story Seeding was so packed inside the courthouse that visitors had to have tickets in order to be allowed inside. They literally had tickets for a trial Crazy the unlucky people who couldn't managed to find the way inside had to watch everything unfold Intellivision rooms in adjoining rooms There were cameras everywhere which Mount Pamela was all over the news. Yeah Sorry, I have to enter a first-second because for some reason like when you just said Brentwood it like clicked in my mind I was like wait a second is in this exactly where and it and it basically is Do you remember the New Hampshire barrel murders it happened in the 80s to 2000s or basically there was like a serial killer who murdered like women in girls or women in girls and put them in barrels It was in Allen's town, which is right near Brentwood. Anyway, so Pamela is now all over the news Which is I mean that's her lifelong dream right it's just not happening in the way that she ever found and she's on broadcasts Yep Dang the prosecution's argument was all about control So Pamela smarts humanipulated for impressionable teens into making them do her bidding Which I fully believe that to be 100% that's their argument. Yeah, if I was in the jury like absolutely guilty. Right. Yeah And it wasn't just that Pamela wanted Greg dead out of some sort of like dissatisfaction in her marriage The prosecution argued that she wanted to collect money from his life insurance policy So it was a 140,000 dollar life insurance policy which today is 333,000 and I do think so like one big question That a lot of people do ask is like yes these teenagers were infatuated with Pamela but like Was that enough to really make them want to do this apparently Pamela did promise some financial gain as well from the insurance which probably would seem huge to a teenager right But I do think they mostly did it because of Billy and because They idolize her it's also so wild. I mean New Hampshire is devine cheaper than like at the Boston area where we live But I'm like 333,000 dollars in today's money like What's that gonna get you right you get to go to college. Yeah, that's it Maybe anyway the case hinged on the testimony of these 14 ages so Cecilia J.R. Pete and especially Billy One by one they took the stand and they told the jury everything about their involvement about the murder Cecilia relayed the information she gave to the police including the moment that she walked in that day in the condo on Billy and Pamela having sex for the first time J.R. and Pete both admitted to their involvement in the crime they talked openly about many conversations They had with Pamela about the best way to go about killing her husband Greg But by far the most mesmerizing and upsetting part of the trial was unearthing the relationship between Billy and Pamela Which by the way Pamela was never charged for any crime involved in this relationship crazy Yeah, I wonder like legally why is it because like a crime was uncovered within the crime and you can only I have no idea Anyway during Billy's testimony he spoke with tears in his eyes Explaining how Pamela made it feel like the only way for them to have a future was if he killed Greg And even now even after everything He did still love her which is like hard to see how deep the manipulation goes and Pamela literally did not care about him at all He was just like she could have picked any of the four boys if anything she was annoyed by Him and like the boys talking after the fact. Mm-hmm. They were in annoyance. He called Pamela's first love He said that he didn't want to lose her But he also wanted to tell the truth about what happened So when it came to the actual crime itself Billy wasn't shy He even pantomime tau he killed Greg kneeling down on the ground in front of the jury and showing the angle in which the gun was held That was sad He described the moment he pulled the trigger And he mimed caulking a gun and pulling the trigger and Billy told the jury what he said that night right when he killed Greg smart God forgive me And then Pamela took the stand in her own defense and as you can imagine she painted a very very different story She didn't deny her sexual relationship with Billy because enough witnesses had Confirmed it But she said that she regretted the relationship that it was a wrong thing to do which I don't believe she actually thought that But in her version of events Billy and his friends acted completely on their own So basically her being like he was obsessed with me He wanted to be with me so he killed my husband The prosecution was quick to bring up the wire topped conversations between Pamela and Cecilia where Pamela basically admitted to nearly getting away with the perfect murder Pamela had an excuse for that too She said she pretended to know what Cecilia was talking about To further the investigation because she wanted to know what Cecilia knew which for the conversation where Cecilia could barely get a word in Yeah, that one. Yeah. I mean delusional As if the police weren't there as if it wasn't recorded Yeah, and she continued to say that if she was really guilty She would have taken a plea deal like the rest of them Which also means there's another layer of delusion here that she thinks that she could get away with it On March 22nd 1991 and after deliberating for 13 hours despite Pamela's attempt to sway the jury And the world that she's just this innocent party who lost her husband The jury found Pamela guilty of conspiracy to murder and she was handed a sentence of a life in prison without the possibility of parole In August of the following year the boys started to get their sentences Billy was given 28 years behind bars Pete Raymond and J.R. were given similar punishments Pamela tried and failed multiple times to appeal her conviction and as of this recording she is still behind bars and Tances are that she will likely stay there for the rest of her life The four boys though Pete J.R. Raymond and Billy had a little bit of redemption or some of them have In prison all four of them did receive their GEDs Billy became involved in the prison's ministry group eventually got his bachelor degree and was referred to as a model prisoner And eventually all four of these boys who are now men were released from prison with mixed results Raymond was paroled in 2003 But bound himself behind bars just a few months later for a smaller petty crime J.R. was released in 2005 and has remained in society since then And in 2015 after serving 25 years of their sentences both Pete and Billy were released and all four have expressed deep sorrow and regret for their actions But Pamela she did not admit any guilt until a decade later In 2024 14 years after her husband's murder Pamela admitted quote Responsibility for it, but she didn't admit any facts of what happened And then in January of 2026 so like very recently she filed another appeal to have her conviction overturned Wow, but Like all others this will probably be denied. Yeah, I mean, I just don't see how you could undo what was done Like how do you work backwards from all of the evidence presented and it took that long for her to actually finally admit guilt She doesn't feel guilt. Yeah, she doesn't Yeah, she just was told enough times by her team that she never need to change course and direction if she's going to get a different appeal outcome. Yeah. And this was her like, poor display of attempting that. Yeah. It's wild. I mean, hey, she got fame. She did. And she destroyed so many lives in the process. Yeah. It's so icky. Oh. I'm thinking back to Greg's parents who lived in the same condo. Oh, yeah. Like literally they're down the street from their son as he's getting murdered. Yeah. Interesting too, because it's like something like this happening in the 90s and then I'm still having enough evidence and things coming forward. But now, like I think about like if this case happened now, how many ring doorbell footage they would have? Like all of the attempted break ins or like whatever, like attempts before would probably find themselves recorded somewhere. For sure. These kids would be on Snapchat and TikTok, like giving away way more information. Yeah. So much harder to have less evidence of crimes, which is good because that means it's harder to get away with crimes. Right. So hopefully then prevents people from committing them in the first place. Yeah. So hopefully there are no more panelists. Hopefully. Happening. So the prosecution and Pamela smart trial was right. The story was one about control because Pamela loved control. She craved it in everything that she did. And it's how she got everything she wanted. It's how she destroyed the lives of a group of teenagers. And it's how she tried and then failed to orchestrate a narrative of herself as a victim. But she was not a victim to anything other than her desire for attention. And even now after decades behind bars, Pamela is still trying to pull the focus back to her. But this time, maybe for the first time in her life, nobody is watching. Thank you so much for listening. Join us next Tuesday for another peek inside another crimes of passion. And if there are any cases you'd like us to cover, please let us know in the comments. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. And if you liked what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crime House. Don't forget to write, review, and follow Crime's Up wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. Bye, Mommy's! [MUSIC] Looking for your next podcast? Check out What the Fact. It's a new show from Connor Tomlinson, who you know from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, alongside Carter Roy. Follow What the Fact, wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact POD.