Passing Our Faith to the Next Generation (with Laura Wifler and Amy Gannett)

Church becomes this stable home for our kids. And I think one thing I loved even as we've moved to different countries and at different times is when you walk in a church, you know these people, you know this meal, you know these songs, you sing them together and you feel home no matter where you are in the world. And that is a gift we're giving to our children. (upbeat music) - Hi friends, welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition, where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Melissa Krueger and I'm here with two friends today that I'm so excited to have on the Deep Dish. I'm here with our Whiffler and Amy Gannett and we are gonna be talking about a lot of things today, but just so I wanna introduce them both before we get in. Amy is the founder of Tiny Theologians. She's the author of several books. By the way, I just got a copy of the new Tiny Theologians Bible. It looks so good, so you'll have to check that out. And she and her husband are church planners in Greenville, North Carolina, which is just down the road for me and shockingly we don't get to see each other near as often as I would like. And then Laura Whiffler is a poet. She's the author of several books, the co-founder of Resid Motherhood and the founder of Kit Lit Lab. And she has a book on poetry coming out this fall that I cannot wait to read. I have not seen it. But if you follow her on Instagram, what I love about Laura is she makes words sing. And I feel like we live in a world where we have a lot of information, but not a lot of words that make us feel. And so I always love when I read her poems. And I love both these ladies. They have so much wisdom. And I'm looking forward to talking with you both today. We're gonna, I know we've had a lot of conversations on the side about handing down the Christian faith. And I know that you guys have had these conversations both of the areas you've been in in your ministries, you've thought about this a time, you've talked about it publicly a time. And so why don't we start this conversation actually by telling me where you are kind of in your motherhood parenting journey. So Laura, tell me the ages of your kids, kind of the stage you're in, and then we'll go to Amy. - Yeah, absolutely. So I'm in, I suppose the middle years of kids, I have an 8, 11, and 12 almost 13 year olds. So at second, fifth, and seventh grades, sometimes I think grades are almost easier to categorize. And our family does go to a public school here, which I think can be helpful to just kind of know what everyone's working with. And then of course, lots of activities. You're deep in the sports, hobbies, choir, jazz, you know, whatever, all the things that kind of middle school starts to bring, we're definitely pretty deep in all of those things. And yeah, it's a really, really fun stage. Melissa, you always have told me just how fun it gets and how crazy it gets also. And you have been right on both accounts. So. - You're in the like, carpool stage. That's what I think that is. - Yes, in the car lot. - Yes, exactly. - You are exactly. It's like car discipleship. - Yes, absolutely. - You are. - And Amy, what about your kids? - I'm in the little years still. I feel like our oldest is just starting to like peak out of the at home stage. So my oldest is five, about to turn six. And then I have a three year old about to turn four. And then an 18 month old. So Emerson, my oldest just started kindergarten. And we're at a hybrid school. And so she's homeschooled two days a week, private Christian ed, three days a week, and my little two stay home with me. So we're in a stage where it's like all together all the time, which I know in certain seasons a lot of moms would give anything to be back where you're all together all the time. But we've actually had to learn to navigate with a lot of grace because my husband, I'd both work, we both work from home and we keep the little ones at home without external childcare. So we're just all here. But I love all three meals are together every day. Our play is together every day. It's a really sweet, but also a really unique season. So because I'm the youngest of the moms, like my kids are the youngest here. I'm like somehow going to hijack this and make it my Q&A of you guys. Because I really do feel like, tell me what's ahead and tell me all the things. So I think I have more questions in this conversation than I have answers. No, no, I think what's so interesting, I love how this conversation is shaping out. Because my kids are actually all gone. They just left me this year. So I've got a 19 year old, a 22 year old, and a 25 year old. And it is interesting these different seasons, but discipleship never really ends. So it's happening when they're 18 months in city on the calendar, like we just saw with Amy's son. We saw a picture before we started. He was so cute watching her make bread. That's such an intense season of it. And then it has different levels of intensity when they're in the middle school years. And then it has different levels of intensity when we're in the moving into the adult years and you're parenting adult kids. Well, YouTube both grew up in Christian homes and Christian environments. What's something that your parents did that was particularly helpful as you look back and think about your own journey? I mean, that's something we all experienced. We saw what our parents did. Was there anything in particular that you look back and you said, yeah, I want to do that with my family. I mean, yeah, I always like to joke that my parents did gospel-based parenting before Paul David Tripp ever wrote a book on it. Like they were incredible and I'm so thankful. So there's a lot that I want to repeat from their example, but I would say one of the best tools they put into my own toolbox was just the ability to think and be curious and think deeply about things. And so as we got older, my parents really approached a lot of conversations with questions and really helping me think and apply the gospel for myself and always pointing me back to scripture. And they knew their Bible as well. So there of course is the whole, they modeled it for me. That's the first and most important thing. But because then they knew scripture well, they were able to just help guide me as I sort of floundered and tried to figure it out on my own and a firm where I got things right and course corrected where I got things wrong. But I think one of my most grateful things that, one of the things that I'm most grateful for is just that they approached different things with a level of kind of biblical curiosity. And so often I felt like as they were training me or correcting me in areas that I messed up, it wasn't about discipline. It was about, okay, what are we going to learn from this? And how can we apply wisdom here and the gospel concepts? And so obviously like I took that all the way. I think into risen motherhood and just those questions. And so it's been a good skill for me and one that I'm already working on with my own kids. - Well, I love that. - I think one of the things that my parents that the image that is stamped so prominently in my mind when I think about being young in my parents home is that whenever we would wake up early, we would find both of them in their own spaces, spending time in God's word. So that's like the image my dad bent over his Bible at the dining room table in prayer. And just seeing that this was something that was everyday. It was everyday ordinary faith. It wasn't Sunday faith. It was Monday through Sunday faith. But I think the element, like that might be the image stamped on my brain, but the environment in which they raised us was just one of enjoyment. Like they enjoyed life and they enjoyed God and they enjoyed their Christian friendships. They loved their church and their friends. And I can remember so many Easter's and Christmas Eve services where we were just having a great time. My parents were hosting 50 people and just having the best time enjoying their church and their family, their church friends and their family and the food that comes along with these Christian holidays and stuff. We just had this like environment of delight. And the faith was really unfolded into that. And so I think I grew up thinking this is the good life. Like following Jesus is not this to do list item. Just get disciplined enough. It's drudgery if you could just be sombre enough to live the Christian life you could do it. It was no, it was this life giving beautiful, delightful, enjoyable thing. And so that stands out to me as something I want to really model for my kids. I've recently heard a seasoned mom share in a public way. She said, her daughter did this interview, her daughter grew up and followed the Lord. And she said, why do you think, what do you think your parents did that encouraged you to follow the Lord? And she was really thoughtful. But she said, I think it was the French toast and the buttered pecans and the maple syrup. You know, like it was just the ordinary delight of living life with Christ. I thought that was so beautiful. And I really resonate with that when I look back on how my parents sought to invent faith into everyday life. - That's so good. I love that image of parental warmth rather than Christianity's drudgery, you know, which is kind of this image. I think sometimes we can have when we think of discipleship. Like, okay, everyone, in a line, recite your words. Bible verse and let's go your whatever and everyone's miserable and it's just been interesting to me. I look back on some of our family life that even was centered around the world were daily discipleship things. We left a lot. I mean there was just so much fun and and even what you were talking about community and food and fellowship and we live in a world today that is so isolated from one another. But what was interesting that was not my kids experience. You know they say their generation is one of the loneliest generations we've ever had. But my kids are kind of confused by that because they're like we're church all the time with all these people. And so it's interesting how just living the Christian life is an antidote to whatever the world's putting out. Whatever new thing you guys will face because every generation is going to have a little bit of a different feel on that. But I just always take such comfort that what scripture invites us to is really an abundant life not the life of missing out which I think is how sometimes it's painted. Well I love Deuteronomy 6. It's what I went back to a lot as a parent and I'll read it for us just so everybody can hear these verses again and it says and these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise. So okay put some of this family discipleship into real life practice. How does this happen in a busy home like Laura will start with you because you're in this season where just managing the schedule is probably enough to keep your brain very full. So how do you get family discipleship in? How do you do this? Talk about it when you go about your way. You're going about your way. So what does it look like on the ground? Yeah. You know I think number one it I love what Amy said of just it starts with the atmosphere and temperature of your home and the kids really picking up on that in natural conversations. You know it is not unusual in our home for my husband or I to be like hey kids like here's an example I'll give a practical example the other day I came to my kids and a lot of times you know I'm a very communicative verbal person and I will say yeah I know it kind of stinks that we have to clean these bathrooms but you know like let's just get it done and then we can go enjoy and I was saying that about a lot of things and really relating you know they're like yeah mom gets it this stinks but there was one warning where I was just convicted I'm like I'm a complainer I'm a grumbler this is actually not what God says the work of the home is the work of the home is a privilege and it's a joy and so I came to my kids and I was like hey guys like I was studying in my Bible and the Lord just brought conviction and I want you to know that I think I've been a bad model in this for you and that actually I am so thankful that I have a bathroom to clean because that means we have a family that is in this home and using it well and you know we have a bathroom that's really lovely and wonderful and so it's just that it's a whole idea of like be thankful that you have dishes to wash because you have that means you have you know food to eat or a family to serve and so that I think is a regular rhythm in our home of just showing what God is teaching us and what we're learning and it is tough to find those pockets of intentional instruction and I'll share in a minute about that but I think it really does start with these natural normal conversations that that was before school one morning I just came to the kids and I'm like let's just talk about this and you know my kids like it's been cool just to see some fruit even from them of like whoa I I complained you know I'm like that wasn't even my point but they kind of catch themselves and they're still at that really sweet age where I feel like they really want to please me and honor me their friends aren't quite their best you know model yet so I still have a lot of influence I'm so thankful but then in terms of like formal teaching you know I was thinking about this too of kind of understanding what kind of church you go to and the expectations that we can have of the church and I grew up in a church it was very intentional and heavily taught me Bible history and like I knew the stories I understood the meta narrative scripture maybe not that word but like it it did a lot of that heavy lifting for my parents I now attend a much larger church where that is just not as practical for their kids ministry and so I recognize okay I can either be frustrated by this or I can respond and react to the church that God has put me at and so I know that's an area of focus that while my kids are in public school and they're out of mega church we're probably not getting a lot of the story of Israel the lot of the story of the early church the history that is not just biblical history it's it's our history it's my kids history right and so that has been something where in the evenings we really tried before we turn on the TV to have a 10 minute it's it's a quiet time but I would almost say like it's more educational like we have been working through the Passover and it's it's lent season right now is we're recording this and we were like talking through you know like why don't we celebrate the Passover today and Easter it's just been very fun to have these conversations and I'm even like learning a little bit along with them you know I didn't go to seminary I don't have any formal education and so as their questions come up we're just talking and so I'll be like hey guys doesn't even remember what's the Passover hey does anyone remember you know why why what did Jesus do to eliminate the Passover like why did they have sacrificial land you know and so it's literally more teaching than I would say necessarily like the hard work that you typically think of a quiet time where it's like oh yeah I want let's pray in us the Lord for wisdom I would say it's probably more in the season of life that we're in practical hey I want you guys to understand your story as a Christian and that's probably how I'm using any intentional time we have and the hard stuff sort of comes in these natural car rides or you know before bed the little conversations that we might have where kiddo finally you know let's out maybe what happened but our quiet times are much more educational is how I would frame them for now it's actually exciting they're at the age where they can take that it's really fun and they're excited still about learning it what about Amy or little years yeah I mean you know because they're they're you know not too busy for it and they're not they're not bugging you about differential equations in algebra to right now so it's not yet the brain space is still there but Amy what about in the little years how do you I mean you're here's what's interesting you're with your kids all day long you know but in so it makes it sound like that would be an easier time but in some ways when you're together all day long I could see how you can be like oh we'll talk about that later we'll talk about that later and then it's just like oh I still got dishes to do and food more food to cook for these people again you know just goes on and on how do you get it in yeah I think when you're together all the time it being intentional can really easily fall by the wayside so because you're having conversations and my first two are those girls and so they get their word count in for the day by like 715 a.m. so we have had a thousand conversations you know by the time it's breakfast I mean we have just said so many words have been spoken so I actually think it's hard when you're together all the time to be intentional and so a couple of things that helped me but I wanted to share this first one of the things that I missed when I first studied this first you know I came into this first feeling like I'm gonna apply it to my parenting lines but I think the Lord was really specific when he first says that these commands are to be upon your heart we can't pass on something to our kids that we don't possess ourselves and so for God's commands to be on our heart not just on our mind not just I'm ready to teach my kids I know I know what I should impart to them but these things are supposed to be the heartbeat of our own Christian lives and so I think for so many parents and both of you model this beautifully in your own walks with the Lord but having a time where we are as moms spending time in God's word so that his commands might be upon our heart we have no capacity to know God's heart and know his word if we're not spending time in it and so letting our parenting then not be this sort of adjacent set of commands that we're trying to pass on to our kids as if it's an abstract thing but letting ourselves be saturated by them our lives be transformed by them Laura like what you shared with your kids is so beautiful because the Lord convicted you first his word was upon your heart and you shared that with your you brought it then to your children it's the overflow of that but in the little years two things have helped me really be more intentional with my kids when it when it feels like our day has a lot of words passing and it could be more difficult to be intentional two things about me one we have used a morning basket routine ever since my oldest was 18 months old when she couldn't comprehend what we were going through we would read little Bible verses we used little flashcards a little storybook Bible, we prayed together, we did some worship songs together. It was a really short, you know, 10, 15 minute routine at the beginning of our day, right after breakfast, you know, sort of breakfast, get dressed, brush her teeth, morning basket. My kids still do that every morning. And what's interesting is that it gave me this chance to say the things that I wanted to say, you know, if I had said, oh, we'll talk about that sometime and I realized that I said, we didn't talk about that. Here's a chance for me to be intentional with some of those things that I want to pass on to my children. But I think the person that was most formed in that process was me. It was my daily reminder that my primary disciples in my life were not somewhere online. They weren't even the women in my church that I disciple. They were my children. And it started my day on the back foot of being a disciple maker in my home. So that's the first habit that was really helpful. And I think for somebody listening that wants to start the practice of a morning basket, my best recommendation is just to start small because small is sustainable. You know, start the way you can sustain and so start with reading one Bible verse or getting a set of Bible flashcards or something like that. Doing one card praying together and singing one song together. It can be super simple. It can take you less than five minutes and the first time you do it, you're going to feel like that really wasn't worth it. But you're going to do it for a month. You're going to do it every day for a month and be like, I actually think the Lord is going to use this and you know what he will. He just, he will. He will use your faithfulness because he's the grower of the fruit, but he calls us to be faithful. And so in these little things, we can start small and be faithful over the long haul. The second thing that has really helped me is learning to respond to my children's small questions with big answers. A lot of times, we talked about answering the big questions, you know. Last night, as I was putting my three-year-old to bed, she asked a really big question, oh, how do we know that Jesus is always with us? You know, we had just prayed about bad dreams and I assured her that Jesus was always with her and she goes, how do we know Jesus is always with us? So I answered that big question, you know, big answer, big question, big answer. And then she goes, and mama, and mama, you know, like calling out the door, as I'm like, you know, going out the door, she's calling out and she's like, mama, mama, mama, and is your favorite color pink? You're like, did we, you know, like, okay, you know, not where I thought the follow-up question was going to go, but okay, here we are. That's a very three-year-old brain. So I think I've been better at answering over the years answering the big questions, but letting their small questions throughout the day lead to bigger conversations, just showing them that the Lord is at work in like the end gives us symbols all throughout our day to remind us of His grace and remind us of His goodness. Just this morning, my husband sweetly got our girls flowers for Valentine's Day and they are currently wilting on the countertop. And, you know, they're sitting in their water, but, you know, I filled those vases once and that is all they will get. So they will end up in the trash can in no time. But my daughters pointed out over breakfast. They said, ugh, our Valentine's flowers are dying. And I said, you know, they weren't made to live forever. And as I said it, I thought, here's an opportunity, a small question about their flowers, big answer. And I said, but you know what was made to live forever? You and I, we were made to live forever with God. And everyone who believes in Jesus gets to live forever in His kingdom. And my three year old responded, how do we live forever in God's kingdom? It's like, here's a great opportunity to talk about what it means to live as members of God's kingdom. So I gave her a short explanation. She went on to eat her yogurt, you know, like it was kind of like the big question before bed and is your favorite color paint, you know, it kind of passed. But it's all these little pieces that we just pray, Lord, would you use these little truths that are, you know, we really can't change their hearts. But this is your eternal word and your eternal truth. So Lord, would you embed them in their heart little by little so that over the course of their lives, you're really growing something glorious in them that we could never have fathomed or envisioned or imagined or produced ourselves. So that's some of the ways that it looks in the season of having little winter house. What I love about that answer is it's a whole category shift. It's being it's it's taking a small question that maybe seems that it has nothing to do with the Bible and turning it into a big question. And I think that's such an important part of discipleship as you go along the way. And I think that can only happen based on exactly what you both pointed to. The first discipleship relationship that's happening is actually ourselves with the Lord. The way to disciple horizontally is first to be vertically growing. In fact, this passage that we just read doesn't begin here. It actually begins with the command, love the Lord to go with all your hearts, whole and strength. Then it says these words that I give you are to be on your heart. And here's the thing I realize and I don't think I yeah, I grew up in the 80s. So it was really everyone expected to hate their parents and hate everything about their parents. She was just like all the teen angst in the 80s was, you know, on every TV show. But the reality is you realize kids love what their parents love. That isn't a popular statement really or even really understood. But the right reality is they're watching us and they do tend to love your sports team or love the sport you play or love how you're living your life. And even even when it's a hard relationship, whatever we're doing as parents is greatly impacting our kids, they're watching us. And so I don't think as parents, we ever can discount what our growing affection for the Lord is just doing the witness of that to the next generation. That's a huge part of discipleship. And that's just you continuing to grow. Because Laura, even what you said about feeling convicted in your own time before the Lord. And then carrying that on to your children, I can remember on that specific verse, I had a kid song that was do everything without complaining. And it was the sing song. I mean, y'all, it was one of those songs that you listen for your kid and it gets into your your mind. And you're like, can I get that tune out of my head? But it was so convicting to me. It was actually when you start to see as as you're discipling them, the Lord is going to disciple you and confront you with all the ways. Oh, I'm not doing everything without grumbling and complaining either. And that those things come back. Well, I have more questions for you, but I want to take a moment and we're going to hear a word from our sponsor. And then we're going to come back with some more questions. Welcome back. We're so glad that you all are joining us for this conversation as we're talking about how do we pass the faith on in a lot of ways to the next generation? How do we disciple the next generation in our homes? And I'm here with Laura, with Lauren Amy Gannett, and we're having just a conversation about all of this in real life. And so one thing I want to ask you about is church. And what is the role that church plays in discipling our kids? How how how much should we expect? What shouldn't we expect? How do we have a good understanding of the role of the church and our discipleship of our kids? Laura, I don't know if you want to start. I kind of hit on it a little bit earlier, but I think to even expand it more, but I want to hear what Amy has to say. I mean, she is a church planner over there with all the expertise. But I think the biggest thing that I have learned over the years is that, you know, just like I shared a little bit earlier about being a complainer or grumbler about my home, that I don't want to come into my church and have specific expectations on how they will or will not disciple my kids. And I think that I had that for a long time. I wanted it to kind of be just like what I was raised with. And for thousands of reasons, sometimes what we believe our ideal is just isn't possible, you know, and after running Brisbane motherhood, everybody has their ideas and desires, and you just start to learn as you are in leadership that there are good ideas, but there are a lot of reasons that I can't even explain to you why these things won't work. Not just because I want to be a no person, but it just really, there is a true element I think that I've learned of trusting my church leadership and that if I have chosen to become a member of this church and go to this church, then I can also trust them with their vision in this conversation specifically the children's ministry. And that doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to come in or have conversations or share my view, but in general, I want to come into the church with an energy of optimism and positivity and believing our church leaders understand what's best and to spread that around because I think what I see among peers and online and things is that I can just be so easy to feel like I'm going to just complain about this and I feel frustrated about this. And so either being willing to be part of the solution or also just in general coming with a heart that says I'm thankful for what I can receive here and then I want to respond to that in my own home and fill in the gaps. So kind of like I was sharing earlier with my church isn't isn't necessarily heavily focused on teaching through the biblical history of God's people. And so I was like, okay, that's something that I want to be able to fill on the gap with. And I can go to church then with joy because I'm not feeling like, oh, my family is now lacking in that area. I can be the solution to that. And I volunteer taught at my church for many, many years. And like, that's another way too. If you want to see change, go be a volunteer. And so I did that for years and years. And I taught a little differently than like all the other teachers. But it was like, hey, this is, this is what I'm hopeful to bring to the table. And so kind of being part of that solution. But being in submission to your church leaders, I think is really important. Amy, what would you add? Well, I think that's really good, especially the perspective of optimism towards your leadership. I think in church ministry, we call it presuming goodwill. So if somebody makes the decision that maybe you would have made differently, you presume that they made it with the best intentions for your kids. Like their desire is to disciple your kids. And to disciple all the kids got his brought. And they probably have information that you don't have. So being in leadership, I totally resonate with that. This leadership has just taught me, oh, man, the things that I was critical of in the past, there were probably so many factors that I just was just didn't have access to. Wasn't pretty too. So I am the kids ministry director of church. I run tiny theologians. I'm a mom of kids that go to kids ministry on a Sunday morning. So I have a lot of thoughts on this. But I think one of the things that the one of the things I keep coming back to is that Laura, what you said of going to church with your kids and saying I'm a disciple maker at home. And we are going to church together, even if it's imperfect, every church is imperfect. Every kids ministry is incomplete. We all have gaps. And so in I even as a mom, like, oh, I wish our kids ministry could do all these things. And then I put on my kids ministry director hat. I'm like, we don't have it in the budget. We don't have the volunteer power. We don't have that kind of curriculum or that kind of curriculum doesn't exist yet. So I think going to church as a family and then also saying at home, we are making disciples means two things. One, it is so formative for families to go to church together. There was a study done by the Barna group. I'm going to misquote it. Okay, there's a study done several years ago where they followed several families from like the young years through their kids first years of college. So it was like a very long time. And they tracked those kids whether or not they would own the Christian faith as their own or whether they walked away from the faith after they entered college. And they sort of surveyed the families where the kids held onto faith as their own in college. And the number one top factor that those families had in common was that they worshipped together regularly. One of the other top factors were that they ate dinner together regularly. One meal together every day. So I think those things just speak to time. I think one of the things that really weighs on my heart these days is in the busyness of life. A lot of families have made church optional for their family. So it starts by saying well, we have this other commitment on a Sunday morning whether it's a soccer game or a dress rehearsal for the kids play or something else. It starts that way. And then it's sort of it's like at this decline into well, church is what we do unless something else comes up unless there's some better opportunity, you know, a trip which is great family should go on vacation together. But it's like families then I think just don't realize how frequently they miss church. I think if people sat down and looked at their calendar, especially in the season of life that year in Laura, like where there just is a lot on the calendar, we feel like we're going to church a lot. But a lot of people, if they look to the calendar, might only go to church two weeks a month. And I think what I want to encourage families in is going to church can be really hard in the little years. It's hard to get all those kids out the door and everybody up dressed teeth, brush, get them in the car, get them to their classes. It can feel like this whirlwind for, you know, like 90 minutes, you know, it can feel very difficult to do that. It can feel difficult in the busy season to say, actually, we're not going to do games, soccer games on Sundays. We're not going to sign up for things that book up our weekends or on Sunday mornings in particular. That can feel really difficult. But the faithfulness of worshiping with a church, no matter how imperfect they are, is so formative for your family. The studies have proven it and the Lord says it in his word. So gathering together with other believers in and of itself is just so valuable for family life. So that's the verse. And the second thing is, you're church is going to have gaps and you're the primary disciple maker in your kid's life, you and your spouse, you are the primary disciple makers. And so they're going to learn different things depending on the church you go to, the different ways they disabled them. Laura, like you said, your church might not have teached a lot of the history. And they may not, and another church might teach them only that. And they will have other gaps, which is why it's so important for us to know the Word of God to know what it looks like to walk with the Lord so that we can say, Oh, this is what you're learning. I also want to disciple you in this way, or I want to carry the conversation forward. You know, you talked about David and Goliath in class today. I want to carry the conversation forward beyond courage. Maybe that was the emphasis of the lesson. But like God chooses people that the world doesn't choose and he uses them. Like, I want to carry that conversation forward. But in order to do that, we have to be people fully formed, you know, deeply formed by the Lord. And so I think it comes back to knowing and owning the responsibility to be a disciple maker, but walking with the Lord in such a way that whatever our church is teaching, we're building off of that. And we're using that as supplementary to what we're doing in the home. But again, I think we just can't emphasize enough that going to church as a practice, as a family, you communicating to your kids, gosh, I love our church. Gosh, I love singing. I love when our church sings that song. I love seeing Mr. Thomas every Sunday morning and giving him a hug, communicating that delight and joy in God's people. I think that is just so, I mean, dare I even say that attitude towards church and towards life in the body of Christ is more formative than whatever lesson or curriculum your kids have in their class. I think too often we think of church as informational. We live in an information age where we can Google anything really quickly. And I think what even studies are showing us is it's the incarnational nature, not the information. That's important. We need sermons. We need that. But if that's all churches, you don't need church anymore then because we have online resources, you can get information in a lot of places. But I think sometimes we forget what an apologetic it is to the next generation when they see an 80 year old saint with their hand up singing, I hold him or a brand new worship song or whatever the legacy that that's leaving. And then when we have these small groups in our home, so the church in some sense comes to your house and then my kids would see those people at church and they immediately feel like, oh no, these are my people because I was putting like beads on her neck the other day and dressing her up, you know, with my boa, you know, whatever I can remember my kids with always, you know, just they interact with the people who came to our home and in a world where we increasingly live far from our immediate family when we don't a lot of people move on a regular basis. I mean, it's just a very transient society church, but comes this stable, stable home for our kids. And I think one thing I've loved even as we've moved to different countries and different at different times is when you walk in a church, you know, these people, you know, this meal, you know, you know, you know, these songs, you sing them together and you feel home no matter where you are in the world. It's not a drudgery, it's not something we tend to think about what we miss out on. And I just, I remember, I just, I think sometimes we failed to consider what we have, what the richness we gain from them being part of a church in a really engaged way. I would encourage anyone listening as you think about these things. It's so easy to come and go really quickly. But I would say invest, have your kids served with you, especially as they age, in whatever you're serving in them, setting up chairs, if it's, you know, serving in the nursery, yeah, kids love to help. And I think we've all found actually when you serve, you feel more invested. And so as kids learn, oh, yeah, I can help with the worship team. I can help with the bolt pass out the bulletins. I can help with this team. It actually, it, it builds who they are to be part of a community. And that's a really, a really good thing. And I just want to say, I am on the other side of all those sporting events. And I am so glad we made the choice for church. And rather than the soccer field on Sunday morning. And you know, when you see your kids not even being. able to imagine not going to church on a Sunday morning in college. You just thank the Lord because that's so in their habits of life. It's like, yeah, I'm going to brush my teeth on the morning. Yeah, I'm going to brush my teeth on the evening. And of course, I'm going to go to church on Sunday. That is something that's worth fighting for. And again, some kids are going to make different choices. That's just going to happen. But if we can say looking back, hey, we did all we can to try to show them the church is a wonderful thing because honestly, that's where life long discipleship will happen for our kids. So it starts in our home, but that's their actual family for all eternity. And so we're just introducing them from our small family into the bigger family. Well, let me ask you this question. We all produce resources for kids that help. I think all of our goal is to help even families know how to disciple, you know, through books and stories, through resources. Are there any, like, if you can think of one resource that you have found really helpful in discipling your kids, like what I would say actually is kind of a surprising one. It was the Children's Catechism. It's, I think it's a Presbyterian thing. I know there are other Catechism's now, but this was the Children's Catechism. And here's what I can say. I loved about it. And it was a resource. It is all question answer. Who made you God? What else do God make all things? Why did God make you and all things for his glory? How can you glorify God? I love it. I'm, you know, guess who learned it? Mom, mom learned it. I could go to the first 12. But the thing I realized looking back, I didn't understand this at the time, looking back now, I realized it made discipleship a two-way street. My kids were talking. It wasn't just me talking. They had to give answers back to me. And that, we started that, like at two and three with them, starting that conversation, meant the conversation never ended. You know, and so I don't know if there are resources that, yeah, you're using now or you look back on and you're like, oh, this is one resource. I really love it. Yeah. Amy, why don't you start and then Laura? Yeah. We have a lot of written resources. We've traveled, like we've gone through so many storybibles. That's the era that we're in. We're just trying to read like the full text to our oldest and, you know, the other two are with us. But she's really comp ready for that next step. And so there's a lot of resources like that. But those can feel a little bit like what you're talking about. Melissa, where it's like, it's me talking to them, which is a great and essential part of discipleship. But one of the resources that we've come to love that makes us feel more shoulder to shoulder is worship music for kids. So we love slugs and bugs sing the Bible. We have that on all the time. We're memorizing scripture. My husband is preaching through the sermon on the mount right now. And I can hear it as he from the pulpit is reading the sermon on the mount. I can hear him read. And Jesus went up on the mountain. And I'm like, don't sing the song. Not from the pulpit. Like it's all in our heads. Like we can't, it's, we can't escape reading those verses without Randall in our brains. But it just makes that part of discipleship and memorizing scripture. We do memorize scripture using flashcards that I made for tiny theologians. And so we, we do those. But this makes it so fun and silly and we're dancing. And it's just such a different shoulder to shoulder experience. And my kids don't feel like they're being discipled in that moment. And so it feels just playful. And the spirit is different. So that's one that I'm really glad that we gave a shot a couple of years ago. And it's had some staying power. More what about you? Slugs and bugs. Slugs and bugs. They're great. And he's got so many volumes of singing the Bible and they're so great. They're so great. So Laura, what about you? I want to hear. Well, I mean, of course anything from tiny theologians. I have absolutely, and this is not even, this is before I knew Amy, I was buying her stuff. And so I'm so glad we're friends now. And I'm like, hey, I want this. Can I have this? And she makes sure to hook me up. But honest to goodness, tons of great resources over there. And I would say my kids are like just my oldest kind of aging out a tige bit. And so something that we enjoy and use at home a lot is it's called Lawn Story Short by Martin. I should look it up really quick. I want to give the author credit. But it's basically, yeah, fine. We'll put it in the link. Okay, great. And it is a 10 minute family devotional. It's a pretty thick book. But it's basically got the passage you read a little paragraph. And then three to five questions. And to be honest, nothing against the author. But we end up just, you know, we are floating away off the pages. We actually hardly use the content that is given. But it's been helpful because not only are you working through every Bible story and there, you know, it'll even fast forward. If there's a connection to Christ, you may hop into Isaiah. You may hop into the new the gospel. So it really does a nice job of every day, you know, you're working through the life of Abraham or you're working through the life of Moses or whatever story you're kind of on. But then it also points you forward to Christ. And I like it because it just stimulates questions in our home. And so I let the conversation go anywhere. And it almost always goes to heaven and hell somehow. It feels like, you know, we get, we get kind of fixated on, let's talk about Satan or let's talk about angels. And but kind of like we were talking about church of wanting church to be a great experience, I want my kids to just feel like we can talk about this. And I mean, literally sometimes I'm like, like somebody will say something kind of silly or weird. And I'm like, oh, the Lord's probably laughing right now. You know, like kids like God can handle humor, God can handle goofiness. He can handle our questions. And so it's really just designed to be a time where we can talk really openly. And sometimes I'll even come back to my kids the next day and be like, hey guys, one of my answers, I was thinking about that. And actually, I think I have a more true answer for you. And so then I'll kind of help them understand because, you know, the conversation's wild and crazy. And literally they will be like, can we do another? And I'm like, yeah, let's do another. You know, and sometimes I say, no, it just gets to be a lot. But they really enjoy just having the conversation. And I am not a stickler on, hey, we are talking about this. Hey, we have to stay focused here. Again, we very rarely actually do the questions. I kind of make up a couple and then let her rip. And it's been very fun to see where my kids go. And I will say, hey, yeah, mom, it isn't really no. But I think, you know, if I were to take my best guess or, you know, this isn't something that the Bible uses a megaphone on. And so I don't want to use a megaphone here. But if I were to guess, or this is kind of what my studies lead me, but other people believe these things. And so it's just fun because I think showing them what's important and how to where to drive their stake in the sand. And doing that in a very safe environment is important to me because I want my kids to maintain that continual life of learning and curiosity as they grow. And also recognize that there are some different opinions and that the Bible isn't always clear. And that's okay. Like, we are comfortable with things that are unclear or things that are mysteries of God. I'm, that's kind of my go-to is like, I don't know, it's a mystery of God, but, you know, and it just kind of like puts it over there for a little bit. So that's the main resource that I've found to be really a blessing. But I would say you have to do some of your own work with that. Don't just like be boring and read it off, but use it as a springboard. That's so good. I mean, in that moment, you're teaching them theological triage. Yes, like there's times. Oh, you know, Jesus is the only way. Big deal. You know, maybe some people get baptises babies, some people get baptises. Yeah. Like, is that? Yeah, they're starting to understand because kids are concrete learners. Yes. So they want black and white. Are they? You know, that's, that's what they want. And you start to realize there are some things that are very black and white. Jesus is the only way, but there are some things that, well, different people who love Jesus think differently on this topic. Yes. And that's, that's been a great part of it, too, of just kind of being able to say, well, because we love Jesus, we're going to do it like this. Or even, you know, we live very blessed in a cul-de-sac. And every house in my cul-de-sac goes to our church. Is that not the wildest? Not planned. And the last house kind of joined our church like a year ago. And it was like, what? You know, it's very, it's such a blessing. But also, we are all families that love Jesus. And in like various, we're in the same domination. And yet, we have different rules and different ways that that plays out in our family. And so that has just been really healthy to walk through. And I would just say these evenings where we're kind of sparring, you know, because even now my kids will be like, well, I think that God, duh, duh, duh, duh, you know, and just making stuff up or whatever. But it's been kind of good where I'm like, okay, we'll back it up, dude, you know, like if you think that where you find in that scripture, and it's just been very fun of a practice and a family culture in our home. Yeah. And, and I just want to encourage you both. I really think those conversations will continue because you're already creating an environment where it's, it's okay to have them. and that just welcomes more. I'll give you both of you one more resource. I just thought about it when y'all were talking, that you guys might like as your kids are aging. Have y'all heard of dispatches from the front? Yeah, I have. Is it a missionary thing? It's a missionary thing, but I forgot about this, so y'all were talking. So this is a thing. You know, you see a lot of families say, we wanna take a mission trip together. Well, you know, that's a lot of resources normally. Not every family can travel across the globe to see what's happening around the globe. So we did this. I mean, this is gonna make the cruders feel like the most boring family ever. But we would sometimes for our Friday movie night watch dispatches from the front and we would watch it and then we prayed for the area. But let me tell you, this made missions very exciting. It was like, oh, wow, you have to take that boat to get there and then you're going to, you know, and you get to see it up close and personal. And it opened my kids eyes to the rest of the world. So sometimes it's, yeah, what we can show them in God's word, but also what we can show them about God's word, a world, you know, as they look around yet, 'cause, you know, our kids are living in suburbia. And so sometimes you're like, there's a whole world out there that doesn't know Jesus. And that can be part of the discipleship that doesn't have to be, okay, we're gonna study the Bible together now. But in some ways, we're gonna kind of look at God's heart for the nations and things. And yet, it's a video, so it's fun. You know, one thing I feel like might be important to just add to this conversation too, is if there is a listener out there, that's kind of feeling like, well, I don't even know how to talk like this, or like, you know, me, Amy and Melissa, us three are kind of, you know, professional Christians, or however you want to say it, like this is our life, right? We love studying the Bible. We love getting to do this both in our work and in our home. But I just want to encourage any mom who's like feeling, they don't have the language or they don't feel, like it feels very uncomfortable. I would say I remember I was probably, my youngest was probably like a year old when I first remember trying to connect the gospel to everyday life. And it was something like my kid noticed a blue bird, like my four-year-old, like look, look bird, pretty bird or something. And I was like, yes, that's like your eyes, your eyes are blue, and God made your eyes. You guys, I felt so awkward. I mean, I said all that and I was like, whoa, you know, like it just wasn't my natural way of speaking, my parents didn't really talk like that. But I was like, I'm just going to try this because I hear all these wise women saying, like connect these things. And I would say it does feel uncomfortable at first. And so if you're new to this and it's like, ugh, it's totally okay. There is a growth in this that comes with practice, comfort that comes with this, with practice. And that's why a lot of times would always encourage moms of young children like do it a lot now because they don't judge you at all. But even if your kids are older, they're, you're starting kind of where my kids are, even Melissa's kids, like it's never too late to try that and start it. And you're going to fumble, it's going to be weird. Your kid might look at you kind of strange, but that is worth it for the long term benefits of being able to talk freely about the gospel in your home and to start connecting things to Jesus quickly. And I just can't tell you enough of the importance of adopting a really humble posture as you learn. And just being able to say, like I said earlier, like, oh, actually, this is more true. Or even if you say something and then you're like, that was kind of awkward, but I just, I just want to tell you about Jesus because I love him. You know, you can just kind of like roll through it. And it will become more comfortable over time, but don't think this hasn't come to us three without a lot of practice, a lot of mess ups, a lot of times of feeling really awkward. And we don't get it right all the time, but I do want to encourage a mom to just try and start and like know that there will be a day that it does come more second nature and it's worth the work. - I'm so glad you said that. 'Cause we unfortunately do need to wrap up this conversation. I have about 10 more questions that I wanted to ask, but we'll have to have you back to talk about some of those. But one thing too, and I think what Laura just said so important, if you just are looking for a place to begin, there are so many great children's books out there that can just start conversations that are fun to read. Laura's got great wins. Amy's got great resources at Tiny Theologians. And I just encourage you, just buy some books for your kids. Let them speak. If you don't quite know how to do it yourself, I just feel like there are so many more great resources that I know than when I was doing it, y'all was printing on like printers that were like, yeah, back in the day, trying to get my kids to memorize verses. Now there are so many great things. So we'll put some links in the show notes, but I do want to close. We always like to end with a fun question. And so this is what I love to ask people, what is a book you enjoyed as a child? Like it doesn't even, it doesn't have to be a Christian one. It's just a book you loved to read as a child that you maybe even want to share with your kids. - Well, mine does not a Christian one. So my favorite book growing up was Blueberries for Sal. Have you guys read that one? - It's so good. - I love that book. - Yeah, the illustrations are cool. - I do not know how, like when I first read it, but I just, it is like imprinted in my mind that was like the book of childhood. And actually it was really sweet when this spring my husband and I, we were not looking to move. We were not looking for a new house. And the Lord put one kind of right in front of us that was on the market. Friends of ours were selling it. And my husband was like, can we please go see it? And I'm like, I don't want to move. I love my house. I don't want to do any of this. So I felt like so much work. And we walked through the kitchen and what was on the bookshelf in the kitchen, but Blueberries for Sal. And it was just like the Lord was like, I got you, girl. Like it was just a sweet reminder from the Lord that he, how does I on me? You know, so I really, I think that's the sweetest little book. So what about you, Laura? - Is that a picture book? - Is it a picture book? - It is, it's a picture book. And the illustrations are just beautiful. I mean, it's just this really sweet story about Blueberry picking this little girl and her mom. And some bears that are Blueberry picking. So it's very sweet. - It is really cute. I didn't discover that book till I was an adult, but it's like on all the classic literature picture book lists. So definitely worth picking up. It's such a homeschool mom move that you just pulled right there. But I know you're only a part-time homeschool mom. Yeah, Blueberries for Sal. - I'm like earning my stripes here. Okay. - Okay, here's your public school mom suggestion. - Mine is tacky the penguin. Has anyone heard of tacky the penguin? - No. - Okay, so totally opposite of Blueberry's for Sal, it is this story about an odd penguin that like doesn't count correctly. And he wears a Hawaiian shirt. And he's on this island with all these pretty perfect penguins. And hunters come to try to lock them up. And because of kind of his oddness, he ends up scaring away the hunters. And then kind of everyone realizes that, you know, tacky is a special penguin that should be part of the group. And so I have not done it justice. It's funny. It's goofy. You have to read it with like a crazy voice. But I have read that like pretty much when I come into schools and can read, you know, for my kids cut mystery reader or whatever. I don't read my own books. I would, I feel too weird about that. I have one book I can read in the public school. But I'll often bring tacky the penguin and the kids laugh and it's good. But it's a silly, funny book. So yeah. - So you got a homeschool. You've got a public school. Mine, if you want to send your kid to counseling, this is the one. Because it's kind of a traumatic. But I realized, I loved it as a kid. It was called the little rabbit who wanted red wings. And there is, so there's this little rabbit. And I realized I'm like, to just start me on the whole envy journey, like I'm thinking about this concept of wanting what you can't have. I don't know. But she, this little rabbit sees a robin with red wings. She goes to the wishing well, wishes them on. Well, then she goes home. And her mother doesn't recognize her. So that's the traumatic. And since her way, so that's kind of this, I think, I think this is why it didn't do well in the market probably back in the day. You know, it was published in Britain. You know, they're tougher than we are. - They are tougher. - Yeah, they are. - They're like, we survived a war. You can deal with your mother getting you out with my type thing. - Yeah. - And so, but I kind of always loved the story 'cause it was such a good reminder. How you're made is who you're meant to be. And don't wish for something that doesn't belong to you. I mean, I think it's kind of, it maybe would be good for our age at some point. - Let's bring it back. It might do better in the Christmas market now. - I know, I know. Maybe if they couldn't find their way home and they had to do something with a couple edits and it'll be a couple edits. We can get this back in the market. - We're all children's book authors. We can figure that out. - That's right, we can wrap our brains around this. - The team is here. - Exactly. - Well, thank you, too. Both for joining us on the deep dish today. It's been so fun. I hope that the resources we've talked about the different conversations we've had about family discipleship. Hopefully, it will be less overwhelming. And maybe a little more simple as you think about it as you go along your way. And so we just hope that this conversation's been helpful. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for listening. And if it's been helpful, please consider sharing it with a friend. We're so glad you joined us.