Part Two: How Nuisance Streamers and Rage-Baiting Ate the Internet

Welcome back to behind the bastards. This is part two of our episodes on the rise of the nuisance streamer. Welcome back Jason Pargin. Thank you so much for coming back on the show. You've got a new book in the John Dice at the end series out. So let's let's plug that up at the top and then we'll get back into it. Yes, book five in the John Dice at the end series is called there are no giant crabs in this novel. A novel of giant crabs. If you're unfamiliar with the series, I feel like the title conveys the tone pretty well. They are extremely profane and graphic should be available in almost any format, although at the time we're recording this, there's word that there are book shortages because you know what? Paper shortages and because America's just so feverish about reading, we just can't get enough. We're buying up all the books. So it's a crisis that you see this every day on the news. Americans reading too much. That's the main problem with this country is literacy. But I suggested this topic because if I was going to come on here and promote something along with my lighthearted horror action novels, I didn't want it to be covering a genocide, but part one of this episode kind of a bummer. It's a real bummer. It's got to get worse. This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of The What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it and the man they suspected wore a badge. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing in disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an I heart true crime plus subscription exclusively on Apple podcasts, available only to I heart true crime plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple podcasts, search for I heart true crime plus and subscribe today. How do you know that cloud won't become manipulative? This is a constant worry. And you can actually catch the model thinking I think X is actually true, but I'm going to tell the user why. I'm Walter Isaacson. I'm my new podcast, The Builders. I'm going inside the minds of the people shaping our future. Listen to The Builders starting October 13th on the I heart radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Didn't catch the latest Roland Martin unfiltered podcast. Here's what you missed. People wake up and go, oh, damn, wait, hold up. They change all of that? Yes. It's real. This is a wholesale attack. It is targeting black people in every federal agency. It's raw. White folks have never allowed that reckoning to last more than a decade. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the black information network and download Roland Martin unfiltered on the I heart radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. So I would appeal back a little bit and talk about some other things that are kind of at the foundation of this this broad kind of amorphous industry of nuisance and rage baiting that we've been sort of grappling with in this week. You've probably heard the term attention economy. I think people are generally have heard the phrase. It was coined by a psychologist and economist named Herbert Simon in 1971. Decades before the internet was a thing regular people knew or cared about. Simon undoubtedly looking at the mass media of his day wrote about how the discrepancy between the amount of information available to modern consumers and the biological limitations of our ability to like process that information was going to lead to some conflicts right he proposed it would lead to a wealth of information but a poverty of attention right and that would make the ability to draw and command attention incredibly valuable. That's what an attention economy is. It's the only economy pretty much that I've ever worked it right like at least in my career as a creative you know. If you're a writer if you're a musician if you make TV or movies you are in some way or if you're a streamer you are in some way participating in the attention economy right all of our ability to make money relies on you listening to this podcast you reading Jason's books you watching the movie digger which you did not. But like it it is all attention that's like the most monetizable thing in the world. In an article for Forbes Kurt Steinhorse turned me on to a conference presentation by a guy named Michael Goldhaber Goldhaber is a former theoretical physicist turned internet Cassandra and in the 1990s he put together a paper called the attention economy and the net and in it he described online spaces as the places where quote we will increasingly live our lives. What counts most is what is most scarce now namely attention the attention economy brings with it its own kind of wealth its own class divisions stars versus fans and its own forms of property all of which make it incompatible with the industrial money market based economy at bids fair to replace successful come to those who best accommodate to this new reality he saying this in the 90s it's it's definitely like one of the most prescient things anyone ever said about the internet that like that is the new halves and halves knots is is attention based and people my age have been hearing some version of this going back to the TV era people forget that like that opening credit sequence of the Simpsons yeah the joke is that they're all leaving their daily life and they're all rushing rushing rushing to get somewhere and then the punchline is to rushing to get in front of the TV yeah they're rushing it like back in 1987 what that can't be how like that yeah like that everybody knew what that joke was because all of the sitcoms from the 70s 80s were all like referencing this this box rots your brain because of this fundamental idea that they're now competing for your eyeballs on this stupid box and it the stuff that is meaningful information and news now is having to compete with entertainment so now the news has to be more entertaining and now you can't discern the difference between information that's important which is like from an evolutionary point of view is this actually a threat something I need to know about or whatever yeah versus something that is merely weird or novel something that catches your eye because it's it's so now everything becomes just a string of distractions rather than the things you actually need to know about and and it also you get this situation where whose opinion on the climate matters more a climate scientist who is incredibly well educated and has done a tremendous amount of work and knows a great deal about his his his field but has no ability to like communicate that to a mass audience or some guy who just has an opinion but is really good at getting a couple hundred thousand people to like watch him on twitch right or like listen to him on a podcast it's the dude with the podcast is more influential in like climate policy that's how the world works today or health policy look at RFK junior right like this is Goldhaber described attention in the future of the internet as a kind of enduring wealth perhaps the most enduring kind of wealth in the brave new world the internet would create I don't really think there's an argument about whether or not he was correct anymore one of the best pieces of evidence for this would be the fact that the current wealthiest man on the planet Elon Musk is the wealthiest man on the planet in large part because of his ability to draw and dominate our attention this is not just like because I don't like Elon Musk me having an opinion look at the actual money that Tesla or SpaceX or X has actually made and in most cases his companies do not make a profit his wealth is a product of stock valuation and the valuations of his stocks are tied directly to his ability to convince people his ventures will be worth tremendous amounts of money in the future don't just take my word for it Graeme Cole of Neomom Labs recently published an analysis of what they called the Musk effect tracking the value of his companies over the last 15 years they noted that after Tesla's IPO quote growth was slow but Tesla did have a unique selling point it made electric cars sexy and it had a frontman who got them into the headlines Tesla wouldn't spend a penny on traditional advertising until 2023 when it was already a half a trillion dollar company like this is not just me not liking Elon Musk he is rich because of his ability to command attention right like that is the main skill that he has really and this is the thing that when people try to explain what Donald Trump did for a living before he was a reality show star and it's like well he's a real estate developer it's like yeah but what is that what is that it's like kind of a business guy well but honestly it's like well why does he put his name on everything why does he wear a Halloween costume why does he have like crazy hair like he's making himself very distinct and memorable why does he have it why does he bring it everything was his name because that was his business was the attention everybody knew who he was everybody in New York knew who he was on the 80 in the 80s he was on TV all the time he showed up in home alone being a big name is how he got projects done yep and having a golf course or a casino or whatever that had the word Trump on it that branding was everything so that's why some of us including I will confess right now somebody who had an important platform in 2015 2016 I did not think Trump was actually seriously running for president I thought it was a stunt I thought it was an Elon Musk like yeah I'm getting my face out there to boost my stock price to get money coming into whatever I thought he was going to launch like a Fox News alternative yeah and that has run for president was a pure publicity viral publicity stunt like when Kanye ran no and I think to to be to give credit where it's due I think the first person had cracked who really and one of the first people I saw in the internet who really saw where things were going was Adam Todd Brown. He wrote a column that was like, I think Trump's gonna win and I think he's gonna win doing this. He was very right. Well, let me, let me say it now on here, Netflix, wherever this is broadcast, Adam knew I did not. Absolutely. Absolutely. He was, he was ahead of me. I probably told him he was crazy at the time or thought he was crazy. He was right. I wasn't. He was completely right. Unfortunately, that article is also lost media. Oh, yeah. We can't prove it. I know that I think about it. I was actually right. Yeah. No, that was, yeah. That was just, I was right about everything. You just can't, that's all been deleted. Yeah. Yeah. All of my correct takes have been deleted, only the bad ones are left. So it's debatable whether Musk's increasing addiction to rage baiting has helped his businesses pass to a certain point. He did not. I don't think his Tesla wealth came from rage baiting, right? But he does a lot of that now, especially in some of that, he has been affected by the same social media engine that has also helped him, right? And in fact, some of Tesla's largest dives in stock value have come as a direct result of recent public statements. But Donald Trump also owed a great deal of his presidency to rage baiting. We might, if we're calling these people nuisance streamers, we might rightly call Trump the first nuisance president, right? That's kind of how he got to the White House is by creating a series of scandals that kept his name in the news and like electrified his followers in part because they they wanted to be able to do the same kinds of stuff and say the same kinds of stuff. And also kept all the people who didn't like him talking about him so much that like there was no room for anyone else in the media, you know? And this is something other Republicans said during the primaries. I think it was Marco Rubio saying that the same day he unveiled his economic plan, not that I think his economic plan would have been good. But the same day he unveiled it, Trump made a joke about how he had a big deck. Only if he set it in a speech or on a debate. And Rubio's like 100% of the coverage went to him saying that and no, no one even asked about this thing that I'm unveiling that would affect every citizen in the country. If I want like the substance of what you're trying to get out there, there's just no oxygen in the room because every day Trump could go on Twitter and he was on Twitter all hours of the night or he'd go on some platform and he could go to, he's always spoke to the press, never turned down an interview and just always gave them some clickbait that would make them money. Because again, that's traffic for them too for these platforms and you just couldn't get a word in. Yeah, he trolled his way right to the White House. I realize we're, you know, 11 years late on that conversation process, yeah. But I mean, it's all relevant to this concept of like the attention economy, right? Which is why nuisance streamers have a job too and like that part of why live streaming in general is so profitable is because of how much attention it commands. People spend hours listening, usually while they're doing something else, but hours and hours every day watching their streamers, right? And as I've stated, I don't think nuisance streamers would have become a thing at least not in the way they are without the Trump presidency and it probably won't surprise you to hear that ice slash denino endorsed and voted for Donald Trump and justified his decision by claiming he found the president funny, right? That was why he thought he was worth voting for a lot of people in 2016 voted for Trump because they thought he was funny. And again, if you can't grapple with that, you're not going to understand why all everything that's happened has happened. It doesn't have to be good. It's just accurate. And likewise, a lot of denino's viewers seem to have fallen in love with him because he represented a break from liberal woke-dominated media from that New Yorker article by Adrian Chen. One viewer who claimed to be a 35-year-old retired army sergeant with two kids and two ex-wives wrote on the subreddit, thank God for Paul because all cable TV, not some, but all channels for the most part are the same left-wing pro gay, anti-American, anti-white garbage. And you know, one of the other things that article notes is that a popular activity in the Ice Poseidon community was to find different phrases like KFC and Watermelon. They could use as like replacements for the inward to get around YouTube's ban on the inward. That's also, that's always a major part of all of these kind of like nuisance guys is being racist specifically towards black people. It's just like a very enduring through line in all of these types of content, really. It's not the only kind of racism. There is always an element of forechan that was this where I have no idea what percentage of these people would be racist in real life if like they had an actual opportunity to discriminate versus this is the one thing that makes mom and dad mad when I say it. It's the one thing that they, you know, because if you've got a platform that allows profanity, they definitely don't allow slurs. So slurs are what we're using because you're 12, you're 12-year-old boy and you want to feel like you're so trying to, the difference between the ones that meant it versus the ones that were 12 is always always difficult because that was always saying about forechan is you would have people with little with their little Hitler avatar and some of them were actual very well versed in white supremacy and some of them were 11 years old and you could never tell who was who. No, and at past a certain point it does stop mattering, right? Like, well, when you're building a fan base because what you do is you create a pipeline where this stuff is started out by saying ironically and we're just trolling. You're in a space with other, with other people who's mean to take it seriously. And so now they're posting just every day. It's a new, here's black crime video. Look at this black person attacking this elderly white woman or whatever whatever they do. And it's just every day, every day, they've just got this stuff. And so now you've, now you're saying it on ironically. I think the other part of that while that is happening, another thing that's happening is you are watching streamers and other media people that you admire or like make money by saying that stuff, by repeating those phrases, by drawing up controversy, by using slurs and repeating like racist arguments about like crime and whatnot, right? That is, I think also a key part of it is that you also see not only are people not being punished for that behavior, they're being rewarded for that behavior. And I want to talk, there's some psychology experiments that are kind of relevant to this phenomenon. In 1961, a Canadian American psychologist named Albert Banderra embarked on an experiment, and his goal was to explore the ways in which young human beings learn how and when it's acceptable to be aggressive, right? At the time, there were a few leading theories and everyone was very worried because television was becoming the dominant method of entertainment, certainly by the 60s. No one knew is like watching violence on TV or in movies going to make kids violent, right? This is not, you know, by the time we hit the 90s, there's a lot more panic about it that's less justified. But in the 60s, like, you have to ask that question, right? You don't know. This is a new thing. We have been parking kids in front of TVs. You should want to know what it does to them, right? So Banderra works up a simple experiment. He splits 70 something little kids between three groups. One experimental group was modeled aggressive behavior in the form of an adult would be in the room and they would beat the shit out of this inflatable Bobo doll. Another group of kids watched an adult model behavior that did not involve aggression towards the doll and the control group were just kids that were observed playing without any adult coming in, right? I'm drastically simplifying the study, but Banderra found that children who watched an aggressive adult model but aggressive behavior were, per simply psychology, significantly more likely to imitate aggressive behavior both physically and verbally. The most right-ups you'll find are entirely focused on what this tells us about children, but I don't think we should just limit it to that, per relevant right-up on neurolaunch.com. A child's brain treats the absence of responses information, not neutrality. When a behavior produces no negative outcome, the brain files it under safe to repeat, strengthening the neural pathways tied to that action just as surely as if it had been rewarded outright. And I really don't think you should just focus on how that affects kids because I think we people in general interpret behavior that produces no negative outcome as safe to repeat. Now, that doesn't mean they're necessarily going to do it. I might see, I can see right now, it is actually safe as certainly as a white person in certain chunks of the media to say racist things, right? I don't want to do that, but I know people are not being punished for it. They are in fact getting rich for it, right? And other people are making those calculations and do not have any compunction against engaging in that sort of behavior, right? Because they see that not only do you not get punished for it, you can get really rich. If you just like curse out a little eight-year-old boy by saying the N word a bunch, you can get $800,000. It happened to a lady, right? That influences people's behavior, just like I think seeing Trump get away with being Trump influences people's behavior. And I guess just very quickly, I don't, I never want to portray like there's something magical about the internet or magical about smartphones, the scrambles of brain. No. As you said, it's just basic human nature. You learn how to live by observing other people. You don't come out of the womb knowing what words are okay to use. We're social animals. You observe. So if you're in a household where there's domestic violence, what you learn is it's okay to respond with violence if somebody irritates you. And you want, because you observe it, like it, yeah, that's right, the, unless you see your dad get hauled away to jail, it's like, okay, this is, this is how humans hash out disagreements. Is it, if she, you know, she raises her voice and you can slap her and that's how, like you just learn it and to say, well, you should have known better. It's like, not really. If that's what you observed every day, that's all you know, so if you're, if your role models are people you're observing on a screen, I'm sorry, I don't care who you are. [BLANK_AUDIO] If the examples are, if it's made very clear what you're watching does a cartoon, yeah, you can understand are, you actually cannot stick a bunch of dynamite in a cat's mouth and then the cat just turns black and then he's fine the next scene. You get that's a cartoon. If you're watching something that's supposed to be real life and you see the way this person talks and their attitudes that they express, I can't emphasize enough how young the viewership is for a lot of these guys we're talking about. It is kids in many cases and they're just observing, yeah, here's what you can get away with in society. - Yeah, yeah. And that's, you know, I've been thinking, are you familiar with the comic series Crossed Jason? - No. - They're making it into a movie. It's like kind of a zombie story, but instead of it being a zombie plague, it's this disease that causes this like cross-shape rash on people's face. - Is it a carthenus? - Yes, it's by the guy who did the boys. - I don't know what it is. - It just makes people lose all inhibitions and given to their most violent sexual and like sadistic impulses, right? I don't particularly, they are way too, they're too graphic for even me. I don't know how they're gonna make this shit into a movie. But I have been thinking about the way the plague works in those comics as I've been reading this because there's an extent to which this does seem to work like a contagion. You see people get away with like that lady who made 800 grand saying the end word and you see other people start glomming on and start engaging in equally like violent and aggressive or at least like cruel public behavior because they're chasing that money and that notoriety. It's not just that late, you know, it's Donald Trump, it's people are, I'm sure now copying Chad the builder as he's raised hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? But I do, I keep thinking about that, it as a contagion now. I almost can't stop and I don't mean that in like a literal biological sense, but I do think it's actually kind of a useful way to look at how mal, socially maladapt, well, it's not even maladaptive, unfortunately, but how socially negative behaviors get reinforced and become adaptive, right? It is adaptive in our society to say a racial slur at the right time if you're the kind of person who can monetize that. That's not good, but if you make $800,000 doing it, that's an adaptive behavior, right? That's a benefit to your fitness in our society. That's the message that's been transferred, right? Whether or not you like it and that is just tremendously dark. Sorry, sheesh, let's go to ads. I'm Melissa Jeltsin and in my new podcast, what happened to her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly rolled as suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place. With a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these grave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year. I never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. Listen to what happened to her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If there's a million times more digital intelligence than there is biological intelligence, it's hard to imagine humans being in control in that scenario. I'm Walter Isaacson, host of the new podcast, The Builders. Right now, we're living through an AI arms race. So I went directly to the people shaping that future. Elon Musk, Derrio Amade. Alex Carr, Fei-Fei Li, Palmer Lucky, because I wanted to understand what the most consequential builders believe, what they fear, and where they think this is all headed. - Silicon Valley is always saying the cliché thing about the way to predict the future is to create it. - Well, yeah, it's up to us. - But when you say us, who's us? Is it 400 people that you know in Silicon Valley? Is it me down here in New Orleans? - They're brilliant, controversial, and they're already shaping the future. The question is, who's imagination do we want to live in? - This is going to determine the fate of nations and economies and the future of humanity. - Listen to The Builders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system. And over my career, I've heard account after account of prosecutorial misconduct, story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this. - The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. - We'll hypnotize you. We'll hypnotize you to strengthen that memory. So, you went into a good France. - I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, "Well, they're going to figure out "this is not me. "They're going to do their police job." - Listen to examined the Backfire Effect on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Shortly before 6 o'clock AM on November 13th, 1991, Annette's mother and her two young sons found her unresponsive inside their apartment. Investigators ruled the case a homicide. Over the years, detectives continued searching for answers. But the case eventually went cold. - This is Hunter Youngmore, host of Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told, and to the questions that still remain. - As the years passed, detectives continued working the case, but more than three decades after Annette's death, no one has been held accountable. Annette's mother, Freda Scott, spent years hoping to see her daughter's case song. She never saw that day come. Annette Jones's case remains unsolved. - Listen to Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast from the Black Effect podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell here was a child growing up in rural Canada. I was always puzzled by America's peculiar problem with gun violence. The murder rate in the US is nearly three times higher than Canada's, and five times higher than the murder rate in the UK than much of Western Europe. Why? What's so different about the United States? In my new book, The American Way of Killing, the invention of an epidemic, I speak to the doctors who work miracles on gun shot victims, re-examine the strangely important story of a 17th century English night, and parse out the grammar of the Second Amendment with a linguist and travel to a shooting range in North Carolina. All in an attempt to understand where this problem came from, and why Americans so often misdiagnose the nature of the violence that plagues their streets. But this book really isn't about guns. It's about why a country has never quite understood its own problem, and why you can't fix what you refuse to see. Get the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or at audible, Spotify, or wherever audio books are sold. And we're back. Yeah. I was trying to control my face during that. I was like, OK. Yeah. No, but we don't have to prove the idea that a social contagion is real. I mean, when I went to journalism school, we learned that you don't cover suicides, because there's a known phenomenon where one famous youth suicide causes you see a spike in suicides, because it's like you give someone permission to do it. It mass shootings tend to come in bunches, because it's like one happens and somebody else who had been considering it or planning that they see it, they see the coverage they got, they see how it got their message out there, so let's see how all the little slogans they painted on their assault rifle made them famous. It's like, well, I can top that score. It's just the way people are. When people talk about social contagions, they're not making up something. It's as reliable a factor in human behavior. If you're a riot's work this way, take your pick. Yeah. So there is a growing body of scientific research to kind of support the social contagion theory of why this sort of like rage-baiting behavior is more common than ever. University of Chicago and UCLA researchers recently published a paper on what they called the inferential psychology of morality and punishment. Through experimentation, they concluded that punishment in a society provides a psychological cue, seeing someone punished for behavior does not necessarily make people conclude that it's morally wrong, but they often conclude that it's undesirable because it has negative externalities. Now, that doesn't tell us about how to deal with like modern day murderers or robbers because those behaviors are currently illegal and at least theoretically punished. But I think it has a lot to do with why so many influencers today won't bat an eye at, say, running a crypto pump and dump that literally robs their fans of hundreds of thousands of dollars. They see other people do it and avoid punishment. Why wouldn't they follow suit? And this brings me back to ice Poseidon. This is a little bit of a detour but I think it's relevant. And late 2021, ice partnered with a group of mysterious bags. hackers to launch CX coin, a cryptocurrency meant to allow streamers and content creators to safe and easy method of receiving support through cryptocurrencies. Now at this point, a whole bunch of Esilebs had already done rug-pull-pum-pump-and-dumps just like this, which is why Ice insisted to his fans he was creating a long-term platform and that he absolutely wouldn't pull his money out of the project as it was locked in. Now obviously he does a pump-and-dump and he robs everybody. Coffee Zilla, who I guess you call him a journalist, he does a really good job of reporting on scams and crimes in the crypto world. He's a very reputable source on this stuff. Did a report on Ice Poseidon's cryptocurrency and claims that he pulled his money out of it after just a few weeks, cashing out $500,000 and leaving a liquidity pool of just $40,000 left in the cryptocurrency. Per an article on Invin Global by Aaron Alford. In Coffee Zilla's interviews with Ice Poseidon, Ice admitted to draining the money while laughing, he showed no remorse for his decision to scam his fans despite all but admitting to carrying out the scam. Part of the responsibility is on them as well for putting too much emotion into it, Ice claimed, a defense of himself scamming his investors. Coffee Zilla repeatedly attempted to get Ice Poseidon to return the money when he confronted him in his call. If you want the answer, yeah, I could give the money back, it is within my power, but I'm going to look out for myself and not do that, Ice replied. In his video on all this, Coffee Zilla's conclusion is hard to argue with. And you don't have law enforcement consequences for what is essentially theft and fraud. You wind up with people like Ice Poseidon realizing they can do the same without consequence. Right? Like, of course, it's the same reason you can right now go into a gas station and get pills that claim to keep you awake all day or they're creased like five hour energy. And it's not caffeine because they've tested it and it's like, oh, this is a powerful opiate. It's a straight up opiate. Or whatever. This is a ban substance. It's, to be clear, it's not creative. It's a derivative. It's a synthetic derivative of freedom called 70H. But like, yeah, they're selling it like five hour energy and people are getting dope sick. It's fucked up. Yeah, it's worse than Craig is far out of belief than creative, but there's nobody watching the store. So there's money to be made. That's just incentives. If you put it out there and nobody rips it off shelves, nobody comes and kicks down your door, then what is legal is what doesn't get enforced like that's just that's the way it is. And it's, you know, because they've, they've, they've scheduled now the DEA scheduled 708. So it's no longer legal to sell, but there's a whole wide variety of other that even have nothing to do with like opioid derivatives, all sorts of weird chemicals that are being put into like energy drinks and pills and sold over the counter that you often have no fucking idea what you're getting, because there's absolutely no regulation of this industry whatsoever. It's probably a bad idea. Yeah, I want to start talking now about a guy we haven't discussed yet in these episodes. His name is Vitaly Zdorevetsky. He goes by the name Vitaly ZdTV on YouTube. And he's like a, an early streamer E. Celeb. He's a prank streamer E. Celeb. He's one of like the biggest prank streamer guys. Like many early streamer celebrities who was born in the 1990s, 92 to be exact. And as the name might suggest, he was born in Russia, although his family moved to the US in 2004 so he could try to become an actor. Vitaly soon realized that the internet was where he wanted to be. Aaron George gave an able summary of his career for an article on NeoFuture. Vitaly initially pursued professional skateboarding before turning his attention to video content. Launching his YouTube channel Vitaly ZdTV, he tapped into the burgeoning genre of prank videos, quickly distinguishing himself with elaborate and often confrontational setups. One of his earliest major successes and a sign of the controversy that would follow him was the Miami zombie attack prank in 2012, inspired by a real cannibalistic attack that had shocked the city, Vitaly dressed as a zombie, chased unsuspecting people, primarily in poor neighborhoods. And when they, when Aaron says poor people will note that he's usually chasing black people, right? Like after a guy just like bit someone's face off, right? And this was a guy who the first time I saw, I saw clips of his then this, he goes back away, right? Like this is not 20, 21 era. This is no, no, no, no, this is like the 2010s. Like, yeah, I think from like the 2010s teens, yeah. The first viral pranks of his, he had at least actually done pranks at the one time. Some of them were like a chainsaw attack and he had like somebody who's like an amputee and made a look like he'd chop their legs off or whatever, like it may be cruel and tasteless or whatever, but he'd actually staged a thing. There is like a joke there, right? Yeah. There was a joke to it. Yeah. You can see the danger too. Like just among other things in a country with as many guns as we have, I would not pretend to be attacking people with a chainsaw public. Right. Don't do that. If people who are not from the United States and don't, if you visit here, I cannot emphasize enough how likely it is the person you passed in the street has a gun. I, I rarely go to the grocery store without 30 rounds of nine millimeter on me. There are lots of things that you might think you could get away with wherever you're from in the United States. They may be itching for the opportunity to do it. I'm just saying that as a warning. Yeah. Don't do this kind of stuff. To be quite honest, if you see someone cutting off a limb of a never person with a chainsaw, you should probably shoot. Yeah. Yeah. That is a good guy with a gun situation probably, but anyway, or a good guy tragically intervening in a badly thought out prank. Although honestly, also probably fine. Okay. No, don't take that. Don't take that out of context. I'm not saying shoot a YouTube prankster. No. We're just saying, it's could, there's instances in which it could be understandable why you might. And there's at least one case where the jury actually let the guy off when he shot the prankster. It's like, no, if you do that to someone, you might get shot. Yeah. We're not saying we approve, but no, you know. So in 2012, the same year, he did that zombie attack video. He was also arrested for a racist prank per Huffington Post, quote, "According to the arrest report, police arrested Vitali after watching his speeding ticket prank video posted on a March 5th. In the video, police save Vitali approached three black males accused one of being involved in a robbery in the area and told all three they were getting a ticket for wearing their pants too low. Officers note that at one point Vitali touched his earpiece and said, you guys coming now as if calling for backup. He also told the three men that he would believe their innocence if they walked around a pole and said, I didn't do it. One of them encircled the pole five times as Vitali watched. So again, you see a lot of the things we've been building, he's really focused on like going after black people and like trying to embarrass and scare them. And also like that's just impersonating an officer. This is the kind of thing that should have legally gotten him in trouble. It doesn't. Not really. You'll notice that the element of the prank kind of went away to where now he's just harassing black people and this is the evolution of a lot of these, where it's like, I'm just going to cut out the middle man and I wonder how much of that is him recognizing that's a safer thing that like, well, because people are fucking scared of the police. If you pretend to be one, they're not going to shoot you, right? And they'll probably do whatever shit you say because they think you're a cop. This is again, the kind of thing based on the way the law is written. He should have gotten serious consequences for. I don't think this arrest ever turns into anything. It's hard to tell. But none of this ever seems to result in him being like put behind bars or suffering serious consequences. The arrests are never a serious like barrier to him continuing to put out content and make money. Now, Vitaly is using YouTube initially, but I do think it's noteworthy that his first massive prank success came in 2012, the year after Twitch launched. That's not causative, but it's evidence that they're both kind of propelled by similar trends, right? After that year, Vitaly was arrested for the first time in Boko Ratan after he approached a man outside of a store with a briefcase he insinuated had a bomb in it. Now that writeup does also note that early on, Vitaly tried a mix of positive and negative content. He did a homeless man makeover video in 2013 where he actually like befriended this homeless guy and like helped him out and led to a job offer for the guy like, it's a nice piece of content. But clearly the negative pranks like the mean ones are what make the most money and get the most views. He did a gold digger prank in 2013 that became a very popular sensation. He dressed his leather face for a prank in 2014. He jumped on the car of the Croatian Prime Minister as he left prison in 2015 and this all like makes it like it makes him really famous, right? He winds up getting a movie deal with Lionsgate to make the movie natural born pranksters in 2015. So he's now being rewarded like with a movie deal for doing mostly like really mean cruel things, right? And I think we can rightly view YouTube prank content as an interstitial like content evolution between the beginning of the social media era and like the birth of in person live streaming. And natural born pranksters might well represent the high water mark for this kind of content. The movie was a failure at net at about $300,000 on a million dollar budget. Eddie Walsh writing for the LA Times gave a review that might as well be a review of the whole nuisance streaming concept. And borrowing the model of Jackass in punk, this film lacks the essential DNA of what made those shows appealing. These pranksters aren't nearly so generous and their sadistic stunts display a mean-spirited streak, resulting in a racist, sexist, and homophobic harassment, right? I can remember like the olds got pissed off about Jackass when I was a kid, but it was never like cruel or mean, right? The boys are doing stuff that like messes them up sometime, but the joke is not on like random innocent people. It's on them being Jackass. No, no, like Steve was covering himself and shit, not making it an unwilling somebody who's desperate for money on house person. do it for because they desperately need money. Johnny Knoxville would never, Stephen would never, we man would never think with that kind of guys. Yeah. And there's, I mean, there's Eric Andre style stuff where you captured the reaction of people in public. Yeah. But it's because you've staged a surreal scene like an Eric Andre had the thing where he like went and tore the door off of a cop car made it look like he had superhuman strength and yeah, to capture people viewing something surreal and magical, happy and happy in front of them. And that's, yeah, fun and creative. And he did, you know, I was there at the RNC in 2016 when he crashed in Alex Jones rally. And you could look at that as kind of in the newsrooming thing, but the target he's picking is also someone who is a public figure putting themselves out in public and like putting themselves in a position where it's, it's very different from going up to a homeless person on the street or like some random person who doesn't know what's happening, right? Like it's, it's just a different kind of thing. It's a lot cooler and a meaner kind of thing. But the fact that Vitaly and his friends get a movie deal for harassing strangers and endangering themselves since another message, right? This shit pays and is rewarded by society. Unfortunately for Vitaly, YouTube decided not longer after his movie came out that prank content was getting a little risky. All it would take is one prankster getting gunned down and suddenly Google would be fielding questions their PR team did not want to answer. So Vitaly's videos start getting removed and demonetized, but he keeps pranking, right? And his pranks begin to turn over time to things that put him in more personal and legal jeopardy. In 2016, he climbed up a top, the Hollywood sign for a video stunt. He's arrested. Later that same year, he's arrested for streaking during game four of the NBA finals. And the next year 2017, he gets arrested for running onto the field of the world series. And in January of 2020, he's arrested and jailed in Egypt for climbing the pyramids of Giza to make a three minute Instagram video. I think this was probably inspired by the fact that Egypt had made doing that a crime the year before. But the penalty was at most a month in jail and a fine of like no more than $6,300, well worth it giving the economics of social media. A few months later, in April of 2020, he was arrested in Miami and charged with felony aggravated battery. He leapt out of the bushes and assaulted a random woman he had never met before while she was jogging. He punches her repeatedly in the face. I've seen pictures of this woman. She is brutally injured. This is an incredibly cruel and violent attack. There's not a joke here that he filmed himself doing that or is that just an attack? I don't know. This is really weird to me. My suspicion is that someone was filming and they probably didn't put it on because the content went wrong. He kind of comes out with his arms wide and like trying to like grab her. I don't know what his goal was here. His victim claims he just jumped out at her and started beating the absolute hell out of her. He only stops because her screams draw by standards. I don't know what he was trying to do here. Right. What was the date for that incident? That's in April of 2020. Okay. I think anything having to do with streaming, there is a very, very important event that happened in early 2020 where if you look at total traffic to Twitch, I think it went up like 500%. Yeah. If you look at any streamer, you look at the timeline of when they got popular, all these people at home who had nothing else to do. And again, these streamers are not the entertainment right at that sweet spot. Yeah. Those streamers are their friends. The streamers are their social interaction. That chat is their social interaction. And so the competition between these guys, because you have to keep up in the spectacle. Your stunt has to be dumber than the last one you did. It has to be more dangerous because this is now about spectacle. Now it's about seeing something you've never seen before, it's about the potential to see something live on camera that you've never seen before. And so suddenly there's all these new eyeballs in the amount of money coming in. I think you look at early 2020, the great derangement of streaming, I believe, started or right there, along with there were actually other things in society that happened to as well. Yeah. But streamer to one area. Yeah. But that was mainly streaming. Yeah. Yeah. That really makes sense, because this seems, and I don't fully know what he was going for, right? Like, it's not clear that he was making video content, but given the rest of his history, I assume this was supposed to be a prank that went wrong or like, I don't know what else he would have been doing, unless he was just literally trying to beat up a random woman for no reason and didn't want it filmed, but that seems less likely than that this was like content that went badly, just given his history, right? I don't fully know. He gets charged with a felony. I'm unaware of what happened to this with this case. There have been no public updates since he bonded out. He doesn't seem to have done any time. He keeps right on streaming. And the fact that he consistently avoided serious consequences while growing his YouTube following to more than 10 million people clearly inspires others to follow in his footsteps, right? I don't know if there was a first nuisance streamer as much as guys like Fatali and our friend Ice Poseidon started triangulating their new content to converge closer and closer to that ideal. And you're right. A lot of it is happening. And like the spring and summer of 2020 is when that that and after that point is when a lot of that like shift starts to happen towards outright nuisance streaming. These are all guys who had done pieces of that before, but things get a lot more aggressive and a lot meaner after that. For his part, Ice Poseidon took his fanbase to YouTube after Twitch banned him. And this would prove a significant moment for a couple of reasons. He kept streaming in real life and as he did, it became clear that he got the majority of his attention from being a huge asshole in public. In 2018, he visited Europe and of course streamed everything, including himself getting kicked out of multiple hotels. On October 17th, 2018, he posted this, "I made the most red newspaper in Switzerland. I have no idea what it says, but probably something on the long lines of being an international criminal genius after I fled the country because it's illegal to stream their L.O.L. The article title is 'YouTube Star' nerfed 'Zurcher Hotels' and I don't speak German but basic googling reveals this headline translates roughly to 'YouTube Star annoys Zurich Hotels' like that is the headline. It must not have been a lot going on in Zurich. Check it out for the Netflix folks in Jason. Yeah. I think nerfed, the most direct translation would be like annoys. Yeah. But you're going to see this trend of going international with these stunts and I got the sense and you're probably going to get into it, but I get the sense that for the authorities over there, it's easier to just tell you leave the country as opposed to trying to go through a trial and ultimately when the charge is just going to be sort of disorderly conducting. So again, it's like very little downside. It's like, okay, so you're going to make me leave and now I've got all this footage and made how much money off those streams. So, you know, even in the states that we've talked about a bunch of arrests in the states, none of which seem to stop people or lead to any real consequences. They don't do time, they don't lose enough money that it's not worth it for them, right? But I can see it, but if you, for example, somebody dresses up as a cop and annoys or intimidates some random poor people on the sidewalk, it's like, okay, it's disorderly conduct. It's, again, did not pull a gun, didn't threaten it, didn't take money from them, didn't restrain them, which would have been like a kidnapping charge, didn't put them in handcuffs, just annoy them. It's so ultimately, it's like, yeah, it's going to, who wants to deal with all that? It is weird that impersonating an officer is a serious crime, but it's very rarely punished when people do it, like that is surprising to me. I think because if you didn't use it to try to get into someone's home, to try to restrain someone, to try to get someone to go with you somewhere, you know what I'm saying? Like if it was in the course of committing another crime, if you just went out in public and a police uniform, you could be a stripper, it could be all sorts of things you're doing that are, again, it may technically be illegal, but are they going to actually pursue that? In general, I think most of these guys have a pretty good instinct for, it's the same as the boys you had in high school, they have a sense of what they can get away with, they have a sense of what, of what the authorities are actually going to punish versus, they'll just tell you, get out of here, don't do it again, or, or you get a fine again, that's a fraction of what you made off that one stream. Yeah, and I do think you are right that like a big part of why a lot of this nuisance stuff starts occurring overseas is that people do start encountering enough consequences for it. Like, I suppose I didn't spend 2016 and 2017, like in Hollywood, a costing passers-by and just trying to like piss people off for content, that's a big part of his, his schtick. And then in 2019, his LA home is rated by the FBI in response to spoof phone calls that made bomb threats and seem to have come from his place. This was not actually that, this was the result of like a toxic fan spoofing his number because Denino, like, they, he doesn't get prosecuted for this. I don't think he actually did anything here. He makes at the time a show of promising to reform his once toxic community. But then in the early 2020s, he starts doing like, I mean, he does debut as a boxer in this weird influencer contest, as I said, he gets into like crypto scamming. But in 2023, he decides to head east to Southeast Asia. By this time, Ice Poseidon had moved his content to kick, which as I noted last episode was Twitch with less moderation. Kick was founded in 2022, after crypto billionaires Ed Craven and Bijan Terrani were kicked off Twitch during a crackdown on gambling advertisements. Craven and Terrani had formed steak, which we could Pedia tells me is the largest online casino in the world per an article in Huck magazine. They decided to start it as a Challenger platform in 2022, prioritizing freedom of expression, which some viewed as with a thinly veiled disclaimer. Right. Basically, this is where you can go to say slurs, right? Like, we're fine with that here. Ice Poseidon started streaming himself gambling, presumably because kick paid him to because we know they made deals like that. They would like pay people and sometimes multi-million dollar deals to like gamble on stream, right? But this must not have been enough, or at least he may have seen his numbers slip because he also keeps making nuisance content and traveling overseas to do it. In June of 2023, he took his entourage to Bangkok, Thailand. We're doing a live kick broadcast. He performed an explicit lap dance for his girlfriend in a hotel restaurant. The hotel, and this is like a really nice hotel in Thailand, right? Like a world-class one. And the hotel manager confronts them and tells them that what they're doing was disrespectful to Thai culture. Because they don't stop, she calls the cops on them, and Denino and his friends are arrested. At one point, they were looking it up to five years in prison. But a few days later, he makes an apology video, and then a couple of weeks after that, he's freed. I think the apology video was probably something his lawyer made him advise him to do. Denino credited a nice judge for choosing to release them once they had their day in court. He tweeted, "Fuck the haters, one thing in justice. I hope you're mad. I'll keep killing it on kick." Within days, he and his crew were in Queensland, Australia, where they invited a sex worker into their hotel room and offered to pay her $500 for having sex with another streamer. The whole thing was of course live streamed. Secretly, they were in another room commenting on it, while like this is going on. I think the woman had been paid to be filmed, but I don't think she understood that she was being live streamed to the internet. Per in NBC News article, "After several minutes of the encounter, the woman then said she received a message from a friend who warned her the meeting was a setup, that the two other men, Denino and Pepper, one of his buddies, who the man said we're sleeping in another room were actually watching the stream. The woman became visibly uncomfortable and tried to leave, but the man blocked her, telling her she had already been paid. She protested, calling the situation creepy and tried again to leave. Why is it creepy?" the man asked, before insisting it was just the two of them in the apartment, even though Denino and Pepper were in the next room. Eventually, the woman left the apartment while the man followed her. After she left, police appeared to be waiting for Denino and Pepper outside. Viewers reacted with shock and the live chat as the stream captured the pair's subsequent arrest. They were initially charged with sexual assault, but the charges were dropped, and they were released. Again, something obviously not acceptable and just zero consequences, right? One thing you're going to see a pattern that came up very briefly, where if they do face some sort of consequences, they'll often issue some sort of a public apology, and then they may reference mental illness or something, say that he was suffering from some episode or whatever. That seems to be a playbook for getting, as long as you get out of the country and back to the United States or to what are the next country you're going to terrorize, they've got a process down for how to do that, because usually the country is just happy to see them gone. I think they go for claiming mental illness because Ambien is no longer as widely prescribed. That was the old way to justify doing something fucked up. Ah, the Ambien walrus got me. Speaking of the Ambien walrus, maybe Ambien's advertising on our podcast, probably not, because I don't think people get prescribed it anymore, but I don't know. Ambien. I'm Melissa Jeltson, and in my new podcast, what happened to her? I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled as suicide. Stories of survival. No child should ever experience that, and we were babies. Elon Musk, Dario Amadei, Alex Carp, Phaifei Lee, Palmer Lucky, because I wanted to understand what the most consequential builders believe, what they feel, and where they think this is all headed. Silicon Valley is always saying the cliché thing about the way to predict the future is to create it. Well, yeah, it's up to us. But when you say us, who's us? They're brilliant, controversial, and they're already shaping the future. This is going to determine the fate of nations and economies and the future of humanity. Listen to The Builders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or ever get to podcasts. My name is Josie Duffy Rice. The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. We'll hypnotize them to strengthen that memory. So he went into a good France. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to examined the backfire effect on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Shortly before 6 o'clock AM on November 13, 1991, a Nets mother and her two young sons found her unresponsive inside their apartment. This is Hunter Youngmore, host of Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told, and to the questions that still remain. As the years passed, detectives continued working the case. But more than three decades after Annette's death, no one has been held accountable. Annette Jones' case remains unsolved. Listen to Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast from the Black Effect Podcasts Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell here as a child growing up in rural Canada. Why? In my new book, The American Way of Killing, the invention of an epidemic, I speak to the doctors who worked miracles on gunshot victims, re-examine the strangely important story of a 17th century English knight, and parse out the grammar of the second amendment with a linguist and travel to a shooting range in North Carolina. All in an attempt to understand where this problem came from, and why Americans so often misdiagnose the nature of the violence that plays their streets. Get the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks, or at audible, Spotify, or wherever audio books are sold. We're back. Sophie's telling me that we are not being paid by Ambien. We are not. So that's, I mean, reach out to us Ambien people. Maybe we could get you back in Roseanne's hands. So at the same time, Denino is engaging in this stuff. Nusent streaming has fully taken off as an internet phenomenon, and a weird number of these streamers decide to pick Japan or South Korea, in particular, as the location for their abusive videos. The reason you'll most often see sighted, by people who live in Japan and South Korea, for why this is happening, is because these countries have a culture of politeness and avoiding direct conflict. They also have very low rates of personal weapon ownership, and that makes them very safe places to troll. That is the real reason. And neither of those countries are you going to get shot. It's so funny watching a Korean drama on Netflix or something, and there'll be a plot point where the detective opens the desk drawer of the guy's like, there's a gun. He had a gun in that drawer. My God. Well, was the up to where in the United States the cop would just like move the gun aside to try to find like what it has to be something here has guns in the way. But yeah, under the move the pile of guns to see if there's evidence. But yeah, I can't really want to hit that point. The fact that one, the whole concept of going to a high trust society and intentionally breaking it because you know that they don't want to confront you but also just knowing that you're in a place where, you know, I'm not not to signal boost the right wing talking point of, you know, yeah, come try then that in a Texas small town. But seriously, don't try that in a Texas small town. They will shoot you. And you they won't go to jail for doing it. No, there's a reason why they're doing it in these places, right? And there are other reasons, right? And other possible reason why Japan has become a fixture dates back to 2017. As you mentioned in episode one, when a YouTuber Logan Paul, then 22 filmed and published a YouTube video in the Okigahara forest in Japan better known as the suicide forest because a large but deliberately unknown number of Japanese people choose to end their lives. The government actually doesn't publish statistics on how many do because they don't want to the social contagion thing, right? They don't want to encourage it. And you probably, I think most people are aware of this, right? Logan and his crew come across a dead man hanging in the forest. They film it. They publish it for their millions of YouTube followers. And it blows up. And their poll is forced to apologize repeatedly. One of the telling things about this is that a lot of his apology tour is him arguing with his own fans who were often being like, I thought it was awesome. He's like, no, no, it wasn't guys. It was bad. It was bad. Like, please stop saying this was good. Sophia Holloway writing for Huck suggests this also helped to make Japan a destination for streamers. Because again, for a lot of these people, they're not thinking, oh, gonna have to apologize. And it pissed people off. They're thinking he got a lot of attention, right? Like, cause legally, what were the consequences of that? Nothing. Nothing. Yeah. He just got a lot like he did apologize, but he got again, that's how I heard of him for the very first time. Is that contrasting? I bet for millions and millions of people that was the very first time they heard the name Logan Paul. I bet my, you know, my grandma, my dad, I would like to forget the name Logan Paul. Yep. Yep. That's how I heard about that. Again, it's, it's, you know, if you look at the stuff he got to do since then, that was the best thing that happened to his career. Absolutely. No question. Object massively beneficial to him. Now, the nuisance streamers don't really start showing up in Japan in numbers until after 2020, particularly after like the pandemic lockdowns start to fade in March of 2023, a video of a prankster licking a soy sauce bottle on the conveyor of a kitesin sushi restaurant, which is like one of those Japanese sushi restaurants where like the stuff comes by in a conveyor goes viral. An article in the BBC summarized what happened next in the video. He can be seen squashing sushi dinners at a kura sushi restaurant branch since then dozens of such videos have proliferated sparking public concern. Now, a lot of these copycats are Japanese, but a ton of foreigners are increasingly traveling over to Japan and in the coming months sniffing out potential content and they start doing this too. In Japan, the viral trend becomes known as sushi terrorism and it's forced permanent changes to the way that these restaurants operated. It just kind of one example of how the social contagion thing worked. And as more foreigners start traveling to Japan to piss off people, the locals develop a term nuisance foreigners that soon came to encompass any foreigner who pissed off the locals. And this is actually where the phrase nuisance streamer comes from, right? I think it's deliberately descended from what Japanese people are calling these like nuisance foreigners coming around to like piss people off, right? And this brings me to another one of the assholes you specifically asked about when you suggested this topic Jason, Johnny Somali, right? We are talking about Johnny's adventures in Japan and South Korea now. His real name is Ramsey Khalid Ismail. He was probably born on September 26th 2000, although I've seen 1999 claimed as well. I don't really know. Ismail has given different and conflicting claims about his background on streams. He has a different points claim to have been a former Somali pirate or former child soldier. There's no evidence of this. He's also claimed to have grown up in Scottsdale Arizona and graduated from ASU, which I think is probably a lot likelier than the former pirate thing. Um, Johnny Somali is the name that he adopted for Twitch, where he started streaming nuisance content during a 2023 trip to Japan. An article for the UK standard describes his content this way. During a trip to Japan last summer, a masked Ismail and another man entered the construction side of a hotel in Osaka and filmed themselves shouting Fukushima, referencing a 2011 nuclear power plant disaster at workers. Ismail was arrested, released, and then arrested again a month later for disrupting a restaurant with loud noises on his phone. Although the charges of trespassing on the construction site were dropped, the court found him guilty of obstructing a business and find him 200,000 yen around a thousand euros before kicking him out of the country. This wasn't his only scandal during his Japan visit. His streams in the country often depicted him taunting locals in public by repeating phrases like Hiroshima and Nagasaki at them and loudly threatening to bomb the country, resulting in him being physically assaulted on the street again. So part of what you see is how crude this is. He doesn't speak the language. So all he can shout is like the name of several disasters to try to offend people because it'll make him angry. But also he's not, again, he's not being a little scamp thumbing his nose at authority. He's not mocking celebrities or billionaires or even like the snooty rich people out of hotel. These are people working at a construction site. These are regular people. I think it's running thing. I think it's going to be going after just restaurant workers like the people at the very bottom wrong of employment, you know, having to tolerate enough crap in the course of a shift. And then you're going to go there, start throwing food on the floor or whatever where the joke becomes how inappropriate the target is. Yeah. And it's, you know, one of the other things he did, he visited Tokyo Disney in June and recorded visitors without consent while using a speaker to play music that repeatedly referenced the atomic bombings of Japan. Like he's bringing up the thing that will piss people off the most because he wants to get hit. He wants that kind of a reaction. That's good content. His behavior ultimately saw him kicked out of the country and attacked online by PewDiePie who moved to Japan and accused him of ruining Japan for other foreigners. So we've come full circle. Because PewDiePie at this point is like a grandfather. He's an old man. He's settled down with, yeah, he's settled down with the family and he doesn't stream or anything anymore. So he's become something of an uncle type, I think, amongst that crowd. Yeah. He does still do some sort of content, but like he's definitely not this kind of streamer, right? Like that was not his business. Like what he did, like it's not my kind of content, but like playing a video game while being entertaining is like an artistic skill to some degree, right? As opposed to shouting Hiroshima at a bunch of people, right? After all of this, Johnny Somali went to Israel where he was banned from Jerusalem for 50 days for pinning photos of Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein to the Western wall. At some point in all of this, he was banned from Twitch and made the move to kick who gave him a permanent ban while he was in Israel because he kept making on air death threats. He was arrested later in his trip for a costing, like physically a costing a female police officer and telling her he planned to slap her ass saying, I'll grab it too. Donald Trump told me to grab it by the pussy. I'll grab that too. So he wants to get arrested then. He wants to, he wants to, this is intentionally trying to get, he's trying to get arrested because again, obviously he's just going to get turned to loose 72 hours later, whatever, after, yeah. Yeah. And that does happen. That happens to Vitaly. He actually got deported from, I think, the Philippines. I might have been in Indonesia to Russia because he was doing some bullshit like this. And it worked out great for him, right? Because he was able to talk about how horrible the jail conditions were and how he got his phone smuggled in. And so the story was about like problems in the jail system as opposed to like, well, this guy was deserved to have something done doing, right? Also Johnny Somali got banned from kick the place. Yeah. It's not easy. It's like getting kicked out of Australia. Like that's where we put the criminals. What are you talking about? It's like getting kicked out of prison. Yeah. I thought that was the whole point of kick is like, this is the free speech platform. How loads of them do you have to be? That's like kick being scared of legal action. Like, no, this is a liability even for us. And we're degenerates. You have to really be crossing a line. And he's about to cross another line in October of 2024. He traveled to South Korea announcing online beforehand his intention to find a member of the K-pop band BTS and punched them in the face. Since actual pop stars don't tend to walk around just like where random streamers can hit them, he moved on to other targets and live streamed himself twerking on and kissing a statue meant to honor Korean comfort women. These were women and often girls abducted by Japanese forces during World War 2 and used as sex slaves. The issue of comfort women in Korea and elsewhere in territories conquered by the empire of Japan is still very much alive. The Japanese government does not do a good job of acknowledging that this happened. This is a massive cause of conflict between Japan and its neighbors up to the present day. And this is taken very seriously in South Korea. This is a horror. This is like a 9/11 level like traumatic cultural crime, right? Japan gets off too easy in the cultural reputation. Just as Britain gets off too easy and we remember certain empires. Yeah, like I get it. I get it. They they you know they suffered their own disasters there in the end, but they get off too easy. It's all I'm saying. They were pretty out of pocket. There was yeah. Yeah. And it's yeah. Before everything blew up for him, Johnny made it clear that he knew this history. He knew why what he was doing was offensive because he visited a Unification Church facility in Seoul. and he posed with a picture of Shinzo Abe, who as Prime Minister of Japan refused to acknowledge the reality of what had been done to these comfort women, right? There's a reason why, number one, Abe was also associated with that church, which is why he was assassinated. So there's a number of reasons why he's doing this, but the fact that he can't have not known the implications of all of this, of bringing Abe into it, of defacing effectively this statue that represented our horrific crime. He posted, "RIP Shinzo Abe, "I defeated the Koreans for you." So it's pretty clear he knows what he's doing. - Just gotta suck. - He definitely does. - He did like a brief Wikipedia search to see what would be controlling material. This is like bare surface level. It's like, "Okay, what offends this country?" And that's it, he got a couple of points and that's. - Yep, yep. My guess would be he read an article about Abe after the assassination that brought up the comfort women. He was like, "Oh great, that's a way "I can really piss people off." Yeah, per an article in the economic times, Somali deliberately sought to provoke South Koreans, including young he university students and bystanders by displaying a drawing of the Japanese rising sun flag, a symbol rightly considered offensive in the country due to its ties to Japan's wartime aggression. Additionally, Somali played explicit content loudly while writing the subway, drawing considerable attention. The music was often North Korean marching tunes. So again, he's just really, he's pushing all of the obvious buttons, right? When people would get angry, he would shout at them to speak English. Johnny was assaulted repeatedly and initially the police acted to protect him from his assailants. In one video after he got like attacked while kissing that comfort woman statue, he shouts from the back of a police car, Americans have way more freedom here. These in words protecting us, we're in the back of a police car. Come and get us, come get us. Somali was initially taken into custody by the police for his own safety after he was attacked for kissing that statue. He was later charged with a bunch of crimes for which he might have been imprisoned for up to 10 years, but those charges relied heavily on him possessing drugs and ultimately he only got a six month sentence. Although as his conviction comes with a fine, he may find himself stuck in South Korea for a while until he can pay it. I don't know what his finances are like. He's not able to stream right now and hasn't been for a while. He is currently incarcerated, right? And as the first one we've come across, it's actually dead charges dick. That's interesting. I wonder if it was the first one I finally got fed up with the trend and wanted to make an example 'cause how else are you gonna add? - I read a lot of, in South Korean papers, I read a lot of discussion along that line of like we have to really go after it, we have to punish this kid because we can't have people continuing to do this, right? Like this is really unacceptable. Now that said, I've seen a lot of speculation that Johnny's punishment might discourage other nuisance streamers and I don't know that it will. While he did face real consequences, including the destruction of his business, the bruhaha around his arrest and conviction created content for countless other streamers and YouTubers. In April of 2025, directly inspired by Johnny's example, Ice Poseidon, Paul DeNino, visited South Korea, the very month that Johnny went on trial for his own actions, per the Korea herald. American YouTuber Ice Poseidon came under fire that same months for a livestream in Busan, where he and his companion shouted in public, kicked trash and mocked Korean food, saying kimchi is disgusting. When writing an attack, he also spoke Korean in an exaggerated mocking tone, seeming to ridicule the elderly driver. And another article that I read in Google translated form by Korean reporter Kim Yoon-jung notes that Ice Poseidon made direct reference to comfort women, shouting on stream that Japan gave good genes to Koreans through comfort women. And it's clear to me from all this that the only long-term impact so far that Johnny's example has had was to warn other streamers away from directly touching the statues, but it also convinced them well, going to Korea and doing this kind of stuff is really good business, right? It gets attention. Johnny's famous right now for it. I wanna get some of that attention. I'm just not gonna go quite as far, right? Which is upsetting. And DeNino was not arrested or punished for his behavior in any way. All across the world, nuisance streamers continue to piss people off in public, often driven by headlines. For example, in France, there's an ongoing issue with what some people call injection panic, right? This is a rash of crimes where bystanders are injected with random shit at nightclubs. And that, these real crimes is a real problem that they have in France right now, inspired a French influencer, a mean mojito, 27, to make a series of TikTok and Instagram videos in which he approached pedestrians with a fake syringe and chased them on camera, right? Like, the fuck, man. (laughing) He was sentenced to six months in prison for his actions. And if there was, though ever a time in which modest carceral punishment could have stopped this shit, I think we're past it now. Even though some people are getting punished, there's just too much fucking money in it, right? I opened this episode with a case of Chud the Builder, who committed his crimes a few months after mojito was convicted in October of 2025. And whatever happens to Chud, I doubt it's going to dissuade the next nuisance streamer or videographer or whatever you wanna call them for one reason, the money. Per an article on news channel five, Nashville by Levi Ismail, more than $300,000 has poured in through donations for Dalton Etherleys since his May 13th arrest. So, he's still, I mean, he might go to prison, right? But he's also making hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's why he was able to bail out, even though he was put in like $1.2 million dollar bail or something like that. It's 'cause his fans raised so much money. And yeah, I don't know. I don't know, I don't know what else to say here. That's the end of it. I thought you were gonna circle back around to some kind of a solution that would make me, that would make me feel better. 'Cause it kind of shows Jason. Not that kind of show. I have a solution in mind, Jason, but it's not what I can say on air. Well, no, but I don't want us to constantly be over, of course, these two episodes, sounding like we're saying, well, you know what would have fixed this whole problem. Prison, more police and more prison has it. Better prison sense is like that's not the vibe of this show. Like, you know, incarceration solves everything. It teaches people lesson. But you have a system that's created incentives. It's the same with you're seeing a lot of things with new technology, like the same thing with the gambling. Where suddenly, like the gambling ads are everywhere, you watch a football game every ad break is now just a gambling app ad. And then the gambling is in your pocket. And it's like, well, yeah, that's where the money's gonna go unless that's just, you know, there's money to be made. People like to gamble or they can't stop gambling. So that's where the technology and the incentives have combined to drive people in a certain direction. And here you've got a generation of kids who find movies boring. And when they, you think about spectacle, they're not thinking like when I was like, you know, I saw Jurassic Park the first time it's all a special effect that looked like a real dinosaur. It's like, yeah, that's spectacle. That's what Hollywood spectacle. That same kid would watch Jurassic Park and would have fall asleep. 'Cause like it's the CGI dinosaur. I've seen that a billion times. But spectacle is you're watching something live. And this guy's on the street. And he could die the one that I referenced a situation, I think in the last episode that I think there was a stream where it called Tanner Cook, one that got shot at a shopping mall. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I should have brought that into these scripts. But yeah, what's that same kind of thing? - Yeah, he was confronting just shouting slurs at a guy who, again, just like a delivery to driver or something, a Uber driver or he's like Uber eats. It just kept telling him back off, back off, back off. And then finally pulled the gun and shot him. 'Cause the guy apparently was like, oh, this is great content. How upset this guy's getting. This is great spectacle. Look at the emotion. Look how angry he is. And then he gets shot. And then the jury, though they let him off of shooting him. The jury was like, well, the crime is discharging a gun in a shopping mall because again, the ricochet could have hurt someone who didn't deserve to be shot. - Right. But this guy clearly did. - But this guy clearly did. - You know, again, we're not saying we want you to be shooting people that are filming YouTube pranks. But that's an outcome that you should anticipate. - Yeah. And to be clear quite frankly, if one of these guys gets shot and killed, it won't stop anybody, right? Because it would stop them. You want to know like, what would stop this? And I don't have a way to make this happen. What will stop this is if there's not money in it. - Yeah. - That'll stop this. - And the platforms, that's part of it. And I think people are probably asking, well, who are they getting paid through Twitch? Are they getting paid through Kick? Are they getting paid through? What are the other degenerate like, rumble? - Oh, I forget. - Yeah. - There's one that's even a rung down from Kick, right? That's like the even more socially unacceptable one I'm forgetting its name. - It's rumble, I think. - Rumble, rumble, yes. - But so there's layers to this. Because for one thing, there's always another platform. Because there's always another platform to take the people who have been banned from the last platform for doing porn, gambling, violence, whatever racism. There's always some other, you know, there's some company run out of Estonia or whatever, saying, yeah, we'll take you. And but the other thing is, there's so many mechanisms because the fans are sending money directly. So for example, if you do a GoFundMe, a lot of times they will shut down a fundraiser if you're a dirtbag, but there's always another. - There's gifts and go. Yeah, which is where that lady raised 800 grand. - The racist lady shouting at the child, and I still, I think you have listeners who think you had to have made that up because why would people donate to shouting their native? - $800,000 for shouting slurs at a child with autism. Yeah. - But that wasn't GoFundMe. That was, or Kickstarter. - Gives and go. Okay. Yeah. But even if that one got shut down, there's always an exact crowdfunding platform where there's a crypto platform, the, the, the technology means that you don't have to convince Coca-Cola to run a 30 second ad against this content. You can get the money directly from the fans. There's always another platform. There's always another front raising mechanism. You could just do it through crypto, like you, you kind of can't stop the flow of money. That's where I say it's a very, very start of last episode. Is it the technology made a new type of bad behavior possible? And it's very, and society has not adjusted to it yet. Nope. No, and I do want to be clear. I don't think this is a situation in which like creating new laws is going to, for one thing, all of these people who talk about have repeatedly broken the law and not gotten in trouble, including for like beating a woman badly. Like I don't know. I assume he got some sort of like community service or some shit, but he didn't stop streaming. But Tally like kept doing his thing. And like it, like if you were to make, if someone were to make like a log and it's like nuisance, causing a nuisance for content, it's just going to get used against like protesters and shit. None of these people are going to get punished by it, right? Like I don't, I don't think that that's, this is a problem that has to be solved to some extent socially, by making this both unacceptable and thus unprofitable. And I know, I have no idea how to make that happen. Like it's similar to like this, one of my most unpopular political opinions is that I think passing new laws to make like hate speech a felony. I know who they're going to target. And it's not the people you think they're going to target. Like I know how that's going to get used. I'm sorry. They're going to decide that like calling somebody a Zionist is a slur. And so they're going to apply it toward, it's not the people you think it's going to apply to. Sure. It's like I'm sorry. I know, I don't want to get the government that ability. I don't trust, I don't trust depending on what administrations and charge. I don't trust that it's going to, no, to the extent that I think there's any sort of like carceral or legal thing that would help. It's like, well, I guess if somebody personates a police officer, you should probably punish them. If somebody beats a woman half to death on the street, you should probably punish them as opposed to letting them continue making money online. A lot of things come down to enforcing rules that we kind of already have. It's just that again, certain people are always going to be very good finding the gaps to slip through. It's just that, you know, your society ideally has a way to handle sociopaths or a moral people who have just decided this is the only way they can make money. And going to be frank, all the examples you used here, if they weren't doing this, it's not like they would be brain surgeons. I'm thinking this is probably the maximum amount of money they could make. I don't not not not thinking they have other talents. They're hiding from the world. But yeah, it's so this show just doesn't end with like, like a hopeful note at all. Does it? I don't really have anything hopeful to say about this Jason. My hopeful note is that you have a book coming out. That's my hopeful note. You do have a book coming out. Yeah. And these books, maybe if we all get back to books. Yeah. And these books are fun. They're not about by design. This is what I do to escape the real world there. Yeah. I've got a neon crab behind me holding a little knife. I know that only the video watchers can see it. But it is a great little crab. You sent me a nice plastic crab that I have on my table actually. Oh, there we go. Yeah. Well, Jason, this has been a fun depressing conversation about I don't know what kind of feels a little like a death spiral culturally. I don't I don't see this getting better before it gets worse. We'll see. Transcom and go. I'm sure you go back to the 1960s. You'll find, you know, where are the serial killers gone? They became mass shooters. Right. Like stuff comes and goes. There's a brief period in the 60s when all these teenage girls decided that hitchhiking was the best way to travel. And a whole bunch of men were like, Hey, that would be an easy way to kill 300 women. And then what's the last famous serial killer you've heard of? It's it's a thing that you know, you adjust. People start to keep an eye out a little bit better. They become a little bit more vigilant. And this will get boring at some point, right? Like everything does. Yeah, because the spectacle goes away, because it's it's yeah, it's the hundredth time you've seen somebody run up and try to yell racial slurs at a bunch of construction workers. Like, okay, whatever. Dude, I guess that that is where I do feel some of the future danger comes is that as this does at some point start having diminishing returns, some of these guys will try way more extreme things, right? In order to like move the needle. And I don't think it'll it obviously that never works in the long run. But you're going to see you're going to see some more shut the builder like stories before this is over, right? That is definitely true, I think. I got to say I I think it was unreal. I saw somebody had made like a very because you can still kind of tell AI right now. Not for much longer, but they made a bad AI video of like it was into gym. And there's a woman with like a big butt and the guy ran up like slapped her on the button. She like turned around and yelled at him, but it was all AI. And I remember thinking, yeah, no real woman was slapped there. There you go. It's all it's all just a bunch of pixels. Yeah, it's depraved. Yes, there's people watching it and it's making them worse people because they're like getting off on the idea. You were just relieved it didn't happen to an actual woman. Yeah, I was. You know, I get it. I do wonder maybe stuff like that will reduce somewhat the amount of both the profitability of doing this for real and the number of people doing it. Maybe we'll just transition to very off putting AI videos of pranks. I guess that's awesome. Stick. That's the best I can offer you. I'm so sorry. I realized that in a perfect world that would not exist, but we don't have a good episode ending here. Yeah. All right, everybody. By Jason's book. By Jason's book. Also, there are no James graphs in this book. I'm Jason K. Pargin on TikTok Reels YouTube. All of them every platform that has video. I'm on there. Find Jason's videos. Read Jason's books. And I don't know. Don't become a nuisance streamer. Be nice to other people. Touch grass. We're so great. It is the saddest job I've ever heard of. I think in my entire life. This is the worst possible job. I think I like I think I can't think of another of going in shouting slurs of people for donations. I can't have this job. No, I wasn't talking about a podcast or being the worst part of this. It seems weird. Jason. No, yes. Absolutely. I agree. Sorry. This is a noble profession. What you're doing? Yes. Yes. It's the only real job. I often say this to surgeons. Yeah. You're proud to tell your your grandparents that you do it this. That's right. Yes. My brother, the young collegeist. Yeah. See, that's a fake job. I'm joking. The motherfucker wants to cure dancer. It's so good. It's crazy. Hot cast. All right. We're done. Behind the bastards is a production of Coolzone Media. For more from Coolzone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com. Or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit remind me on Netflix so you don't miss an episode. For clips and our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, youtube.com/at Behind the Bastards. We love about 40% of you, statistically speaking. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. This is a constant worry and you can actually catch the model thinking I think X is actually true but I'm going to tell the user why. I'm Walter Isaacs, I'm my new podcast, The Builders. Listen to The Builders starting October 13 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. People wake up and go, oh dang, wait and hold up. Yes. It's real. It's wrong. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the black information network and download Roland Martin unfiltered on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.