PARIS JACKSON: “No Intervention Could Have Gotten Me Sober”

And we didn't get to introduce Kai. Oh yeah, he's laughing right now. And you have more animals you said? I have five right now. Who are the others? Yeah, I have three cats and I have another dog. What are their names? Kaivi is the main cune and then the other two cats are Canaan and Kairo. And then I have, this is Kai and then my other dog is Koa. What's the addiction to Kai? Well, I go like PK and the K has been one of my favorite parts of my name. I'm named after my grandmother, Catherine. So where did the name Kaivi come from? I mean Sage has fallen in with Kaivi Raja and I mean Sage King. Yeah, I love them. Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute. And I hope you're being a little patient with yourself because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon. Paris, welcome to on purpose. Thank you for having me. I'm so grateful that I got to listen to some of the album in preparation for the interview. And I found it captivating. I found it moving. I found parts of it painful and difficult and challenging in a really cathartic way. And I found parts of it quite nostalgic, which was really, really beautiful, actually. And something makes you feel like familiarity and positivity at the same time. And so thank you for putting it together. I wanted to ask you, obviously, the albums called "Happiest Day of My Life." And you've said that you feel like you're in the happiest place in your life at the moment. I do. The song title as well as the covering kind of everything is a bit tongue and cheek. And also it is cool to say that I am really happy right now. Talked to me about the tongue and cheek part and the part that feels like it's true. So the lyrics are, "This could be the happiest day of my life, but nothing lasts forever." And so it's kind of like a. I've always really enjoyed self-deprecating humor. Something was like a pessimistic view, even though in the last year I've really redirected my perspective. And I tend to look for the silver lining and I tend to look for the deeper meaning and things. And that has made me happier. I still do enjoy pessimism in a humorous way. I enjoy kind of self-deprecating humor and things like that. And so the nothing lasts forever. Second half of that line is very much just like almost making fun of my negativity. That's interesting. I feel like as a Brit, I can totally understand the self-deprecating humor part. Obviously the cover art is kind of the opposite of like happiest day of my life. It's kind of just, yeah, a little tongue and cheek. What would the happiest day of your life look like? If you had to paint an ideal day, what does it look like? Ideally, having gotten enough sleep. It's good. It's good. It's solid, amount of sleep. What's the solid amount of sleep? Waking up feeling rested. I probably need 10 hours. I rarely get it. Usually I get between six and eight. But as a female, I do need more. So if I could get 10, that'd be killer. My body usually doesn't let me do that. Same. I would do that 10 minutes. That'd be super sick. If I could do that. Yeah, wake up, have my coffee, hang out with my animals for a little bit. Maybe do something that is good for my body, any kind of like somatic or aerobic thing, like maybe rock climb or something. And spend time with friends. Something related to music, whether it's writing or playing or just practicing guitars, something like that. And then really bedtime. Some good food. Sounds like a perfect day. You told us about your happiest day today. Or did a day in your life look like when you were growing up when you were a young girl? It's funny because it's almost similar to how I live now, which is every day is very different. I know a lot of kids don't maybe wake up, have breakfast, go to school, do some kind of after school activity, go home, have dinner, go to bed. And that is like every day. My days were constantly changing. There was a lot of travel. There was a lot of just moving about, seeing new places, I was homeschooled for the first six grades. And anytime we'd been a new country, we would learn about that country that we were in. We'd learn the folklore of the country, we'd learn the legends. It really just depended on what city we were in, what country we were in. It's kind of hard to be like, oh, what was the average day that there was no average, really? This episode of on purpose is presented by Ultra Running. You'll benefit from having a little more space, so do our feet. That's why Ultra Running shoes feature ultra fit design, giving toes more room for comfort, balance and strength. They're perfect for running, walking or hiking, any pace, any level, they feel right from the first step. Go to ultra running.com/onpurpose and use code purpose 10 for 10% off. And it's altr running.com/onpurpose. What does homeschooling look like? What's your take on it? Do you look back at that experience and go, that was really positive. I liked being homeschooled. I saw value in it or do you look back at and go, hmm, I'm not sure I'd do that if I ever had kids or. I think there's things to take from it and things to maybe not take from it. Like most things. I really valued the sort of tones and specifics of a lot of what I learned through homeschooling, because there's a lot that I don't really agree with as far as the standard curriculum goes throughout the United States. I think there's something to be said about depending on which state you live in. Your history book is going to tell you something completely different. Seattle's very different from, you know, West Virginia. Yeah. Like you're just going to get different lessons. But also there's definitely maybe like a lack of social exposure as far as peers go. So I definitely had a bit of a speed bump and I kind of, you know, had it adapt very quickly when I started interacting with people my age. Yeah. I found that like I was born and raised in London and growing up learning about British history and even though I'm Indian, I'm only learning about what happened in India like years later and being like, oh wow, that was not in my history. I worked what's over and being just quite shocked by it about how I could have just completely missed that part of my heritage in history. And so you're so right when you talk about how much is lost in national curriculums or state curriculums, as you said. Yeah. That you just don't come across. Yeah. One of my favorite questions to ask people and I'll ask you often on the show is what's a childhood memory that you have that you feel defines who you are today or a moment or experience that you had that you look back on and think, yeah, that really showcases who I still am today. My first instinct is to be like all of them because all of the people that we need to help create pieces of me and bubblegla, but for some reason I am getting this one memory. This is a very short period where we were in LA and I was probably 10 and there was a hummingbird that we thought was dead. And I was really affected by that. I held it in my hands and my dad was like, no, there might be germs, but I was very like, no, I want to hold it and I want to mourn it and I want to be gentle with it and I want to love it. And it must not have been dead because after I cried over it and held it, I went outside and I was going to bury it and I opened my hands to look at it in a fluid way. And that was like a really beautiful even looking back on its spiritual experience, but just that kind of when I feel things, I feel so big and I feel so deeply and I think I've always been like that and I hopefully always will be because one of the most beautiful aspects of life is to feel the highest highs and the lowest lows. That sounds like such a healing experience. Yes, beautiful. Yeah, I forgot about that until now. That's so beautiful. I love that. That's such a special memory. I love the idea. I love it even more is because there's the famous teaching of the Buddha about, have you ever heard the story of how a monk in the monastery finds a bird that seems hurt and the monk wants to help it and the monk goes to pick it up and the Buddha goes, be really careful because if you hold it too tight, you might actually break its wings or hurt it. But then the monk says, but if I don't hold it tight enough, then it will fly away or it will hurt itself again and the Buddha says, don't hold it too tight or too loose. That's that idea of that balance in life of you can't hold yourself too tight or too loose and if you want to help someone, you can't hold them too tight or too loose. This idea of just finding that comfort, it sounds like you held that bird perfectly. Just the right. I love those stories. There's been a few parables that I've gotten from the Buddhist philosophy that I really, really love that have really just kind of guided me and some of my friends. You're the who's to say one, the farmer's parable? Yes, go on. I love it. I'm going to butcher it. But it's just this idea of who's to say what's good or bad. I really been in the last year, really been trying to practice the belief that nothing is good or bad. It's either light or heavy energy and heavier energies are harder to mulch, but it's still to divine. It's still for a reason and it's still whether someone believes in God or the universe or multiple deities or whatever the belief is, is that it's for a reason kind of thing. I can't imagine how happy the 10-year-old version of you was on the bad flu away. It was magic. Did you felt like you saved it and healed it? Oh, my God. I was sad. I was like, "I have magical powers." You do. I do think there's a healing energy to how a 10-year-old must have held that bird. I have a lot of apprehension with vocalizing some of my more woo-woo-beliefs just because I've been on the resumption. receiving end of a lot of skeptics. I have an interskeptic that lives in me. That's like, let's preface every story with I could be wrong, but that's beautiful. Well, I wanted to ask you about how, you know, when you think about memories like that, that come to mind at the same time, you know, when you're listening to your music, there's so much about, as you said, the heaviness of life. And I love what you just said right now about how life's not really good or bad. It's either light or heavy and emotional experience. And I think that's such a healthy way of looking at it. I think we're so quick as humans to label something as good, bad, right wrong. And I've been trying to use words like honest more. As I know what moments to be honest, I want them to be experienced. I want them to feel real, rather than good or bad, or right or wrong, which feel so conclusive and certain. When did things start to feel heavier for you in life? And when did you start to kind of feel the weight of that, that we feel in your music as you're expressing it? - Like eight, I'd say, probably about eight. Like I remember being so surrounded by love and playing hot wheels with my brother and then going into my room and being alone for a second and having that like sinking, like empty, just feeling, you know, hard to explain if you don't know what I'm talking about. But it's that has kind of been this sort of, I don't want to say companion, 'cause it's not the most pleasant thing, but it's been a through line throughout my life. This kind of almost chronic loneliness that I think definitely plays a part in alcoholism, drug addiction, depression, anxiety, things like that. - When you start to experience that, that young, I also imagine there wasn't really a vocabulary for that 20 years ago in the easiest sense. Like, did you even know what you were experiencing? - No, I didn't know what it was. I just know that it sucked, it sucked bad. And just having like unmanageable thoughts and feelings and as I got older, learning how to search outside of myself for things, people places things that could, you know, kind of ease that or help me manage it. And for the longest survival skills versus coping skills. - When you started to notice them at the time, what did you think it was? Where did you think it came from? And what did you do with those feelings? - I don't know. I mean, I was eight or nine or seven. I don't know exactly when, but it was just like a, yeah, I didn't know what to do about it. And then, you know, obviously, as I got a little bit older, I started trying things that would kind of band-aid it for a time, or if anything distract me from it. And that's what substances did for a long time. When did you first get exposed to drugs? - I mean, that's kind of a perspective thing 'cause alcohol can be a drug. - Yes. - So that was in my early teen years, 14-ish, I think. Weed, I don't really consider a drug, but I treat it like one. It is a plant medicine and it is so helpful to so many people, but because there's no way for me to be in right relationship with it, I stay away from it. And that was something that I treated as a gateway. I don't like the people call it a gateway drug 'cause I know for so many people it's not. It was for me. And then, I mean, yeah, by the time I was 19, I was on narcotics. - And did you just feel that, like you said, it was almost like something that numbed you, was it an escape? What did it do for you that you couldn't find anywhere else at the time? - Not num because I, again, I feel very deeply. So I think it just brought me to a more moderated. I could still cry, I could still kind of laugh, I could still, you know, I think it just made me feel normal. It made me feel more like managed. And it wasn't that it was like an escape. It was just, I don't like that word either 'cause a lot of people weren't talking about addiction. They used the term escape and I don't think that it felt that way for me. I think part of it was I just simply loved the effect produced by these things. And it just made me feel different than how I was used to feeling which sucked. - How did it then affect your day to day life? Because it sounds like it was helpful in the beginning at least. - Oh yeah, it's always fun at first and fun with problems and problems with fun and then just problems. It's typically that's the progression. - What is that come from? Is that a lyrics? - No, it's just, it's something that, you know, my friends and I've picked it up around. - It's so good, that's so good. I never had someone say it that way. - It's fun, then fun with problems and problems with fun and then it's just problems. Talk to me about that journey, that arc. - Hindsight's 2020, when I looked back on that journey, there were plenty of experiences that should have qualified as bottoms that would have gotten me sober, but it just wasn't enough and it's kind of that. It takes what it takes and it had to get to a certain point. For me, there were certain things I experienced that would have scared other people in the getting sober, but it didn't do that for me yet. It was a lot of this. - What was the experience if you can share with us that felt closest that you felt in your words, should I or could have got you to share? - I don't know so many. I mean, one of them that really should have, maybe done it, should have as if I should be the one in control, okay. Well, I blew a hole through my nose, which is, you know, public knowledge. I have a perforated, it's not deviated, it's perforated. So it whistles, you know, I show you after the cameras aren't rolling, like I'll shine a light and you can see straight through, you know, my nose and I freaked out, there's blood everywhere, I looked in my, you know, in the mirror and I saw it. And when I went to the doctor, he obviously knew what it was from because that only happens from, you know, cocaine, ketamine, just snorting drugs. And it was like, we can fix this. But if you keep going, it's just gonna happen again. There's only so many reconstructive surgeries we can do. So if you're not done, I wouldn't bother yet. And I remember having the thought of, well, I'm not done. That was one, I mean, I've had, you know, someone OD on my drugs that I had to breathe for for the, until the paramedics showed up. And they were like, if you didn't get there in time, he'd either be dead or brain dead. I mean, I've had plenty of experiences that were scary enough to have gotten me sober, but I just wasn't ready, you know, no intervention or traumatizing event could have gotten me there until I was actually ready. - In the way you described them, wondering when did experimenting turn into addiction fee? - I mean, I've always been the type of person to reach outside of myself and just become and consuming relationships with things. I mean, even now with, you know, over half a decade sober, like I will turn Pilates into an addiction. I will turn rock climbing into an addiction. I can turn meditation into an addiction. So the main focus in this last year has been, okay, how do I get into right relationship with it? One of the scariest and probably darkest moments of my addiction, which was still a year before I got sober, was I had been free-basing heroin and fentanyl. And you can't really smoke it out of a pipe because the effect produces you not out. And so if you have a glass pipe, it's just gonna break every time you get too high. And I had lost my voice for three months because I was using foil. And I didn't think I was ever gonna be able to sing again. For the first month, I couldn't talk at all. Like it was just this strained like whispery. And I didn't even pick up my guitar during that time 'cause it was like, well, if I can't sing and write, then what's the point? 'Cause I don't consider myself a guitar player. I know enough just to write. And that was several months of, yeah, not thinking I was ever gonna be able to do literally what I feel is my life, passion, and purpose ever again. - What did that feel like? - What's a good word for it? I don't know that it's hopelessness because hopelessness grants the gift of desperation, which typically leads to sobriety, and the right circumstance, but pointlessness maybe. - When I hear you describe these moments, I wonder what you now looking back, if you wanted people to know and understand something about your life during that time, or that you think would help them, what would you say, reflecting back now on that time? - I don't think I need to, because I do believe that it's through hearing other people's stories of recovery that I was able to open my ears and find recovery myself. And so it's almost like a word of mouth and giving of experience, strength, and hope to each other that helps us stay sober. This beautiful community that can exist. And I think for people outside of that, it's not really for them. And it is interesting. I've definitely spent several years where the sobriety has been celebrated. And it's been this amazing piece of connection for me and these people that I love so deeply. And then I'll see maybe someone's reaction that doesn't understand, and maybe someone's reaction that's on the outside of it. And there is a lot of judgment. There is a lot of like drug addicts. And that was definitely a bit startling for me. One of the first times I really experienced that kind of reaction because this whole time once I actually went from seeking recovery to being in recovery, I've started seeing it as my, this is my superpower. Like I now see that my experience can benefit from other people, my deepest moments of suffering. Once I transform them and alchemize them, they can become very potent pieces of medicine for other people. What a gift. And so that's been my perspective. And then when I hear the exact opposite from someone else, it's like, whoa, you know, it's very startling. I remember a few years back we had Tom Holland on the show and he was talking about his sobriety journey. And the reason I just saw him this morning and so I was thinking about it again and just how many messages we still get years later on with people saying hearing his story has helped them on their journey. And I can imagine with the same as you are sharing right now, I look forward to the messages you'll get and I'll get and that we'll get for the show that people hearing your story will help them because I think when you're in those moments, I imagine as you said, you feel extremely lonely, you feel depressed. I've heard people say things to me like you just feel like you shouldn't be there, things could be better without you. There's so many thoughts that kind of spiral in your mind. What would you say with the most common thoughts that came into your mind at the time? A lot of terminal uniqueness and I don't understand, kind of saying, which is almost humorous at this point because a lot of sober people that I talked to have had that at some point and that is what separates us. We look for the differences as opposed to the similarities and it is through hearing other people's stories. I've been in situations where I'm talking to someone that has never had a drink or a drug and they've never even smoked a cigarette and they're trying to tell me about my heroin addiction. I'm not going to listen to them. Like respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. So I'm just not going to take. But then I hear someone whose story is so much worse than mine or they've just seen more and been through more and done more. If they can get it, I can get it kind of a thing. It's a tricky line to kind of tread as far as talking about these things on podcasts or interviews and things like that because I by no means want to be like a spokesperson for sobriety. But sharing my story is something that has helped me. Hearing other people's stories has helped me so if I can pay that forward, absolutely. But I also like I don't want to be a spokesperson. I don't give advice. I'm not going to tell someone to not do a drug because I need it to to get to a certain point and thank God I did. So I'm not going to try and rob someone of their experience. It's very much like you go and do your own thing. If you need to go do research, that's your life. When drugs started to fast become a part of your life, do the adults in your life know this and try and intervene or help and support? I hit it really well. Even myself harm. I hit for a couple of years before my family found out. And that was like one of my first addictive kind of things. That was one of the first like compulsive addictions that I fell into was cutting and occasionally burning. I'm pretty good at hiding it in the beginning and then it starts to get kind of unmanageable. There were some people that tried to step in. I would deny it. I'd find a way out of it as we do. We're slippery, folk, addictive people. Yeah, I mean eventually I got through there was an intervention. I was sent away. It didn't do anything. I wasn't ready. I was still convinced that. I'm like, okay, we'll go because I need help getting off of heroin so the doctor can give me subs. But I'm still going to drink and smoke weed. Didn't think that that was going to be a problem, which it was. I know that time as far as I know you were sent to one of the senses in Utah. That was after suicide attempt. That was when I was 15. The rehab, my family sent me out of the rehab. My family sent me to. I was 20 years old, I think. The I Utah. That was after suicide attempts. CPS was like, you guys got a sender away because she's already been to the psych ward a couple times. What was the experience like at those centers in Utah? I think we've all had horrific stories about them and I've not personally interacted with them in any way. I wonder for those of us who don't know how would you describe them, what was that experience like? I mean, each one was different. I know some other people that have been to ones that were not as bad or worse. I definitely left with more PTSD than I went in there with and had nightmares for two or three years about going back after I finally left because I was there for a couple of months, I have two years. I was one of the lucky ones where we didn't experience physical or sexual abuse, but there was definitely a lot of psychological, emotional, spiritual abuse that happened there. Pitting the clients against each other, kind of a thing, learning how to like, oh, I can't trust my roommate. I can't trust my therapist. I can't trust anybody here because anything you say could put you on the lowest level and you can't really call your family and tell them because they're listening and they will call your family and be like, don't listen to her. She's lying to you and then you get a consequence for and you're on meds and you're zombieed out and it's just, it's rough. You have to learn how to kind of play the game if you want to get out. How's that meant to help anyone? Rehabilitation, I think, is a case by case. Whether it's like a young kid's treatment center or a drug addiction rehab or a, you know, jail or prisoner institution, like rehabilitation is kind of a case by case and I don't know that you can just blanket something and just cover everybody with one method. Did that affect how you trusted people there running life after that experience? Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. And it's a shame because I found a lot of beauty and finally learning how to trust. Talk to me about that journey with trust specifically. When you're in that position where you don't have you can trust your therapist, you've roommate the people who are meant to be helping you and supporting you. Yeah. How does one even go back to beginning to trust someone else outside of that space? It was definitely a lot to layer on top of an already existing issue with trust as far as people having ulterior motives and trying to take advantage and take. But I think it was just something that happened slowly over time. Yeah, time and consistency and I've been lucky enough to have some people that have just shown up over and over and over. Like my best friend of 10 years just shown up, shown up, shown up. In every situation? Yeah, I think it's for with the people that I do trust. It's something that takes time to build. I've heard this saying that it's lost in gallons and gained back in drops. And yeah, drop by drop. How do you define a good friend? Integrity. The integrity has to match a certain level. The humor is very important. And just the sense of home, I think. I've really waddled my friend group down over the last few years and the group that the people in my life right now are the most incredible human beings I've ever met. Just really high integrity, really loyal, really funny, just salt to the earth human beings that I can call and they'll they'll show up. And they can call me and I'll show up. I'm multiple people's emergency contact and I have a few on mine and it's one of the most priceless things. Money can't really buy that. Yeah, you want the friend who gets a call at 2 a.m. and they're there for you. Oh, I'm packing a bag. I'll be there. I'm so happy that you found that. I feel like everyone deserves that. Yeah. As you said, that feeling of home. Everyone's born in a home and then spends their whole life trying to find belonging. And it's a strange thing to say. It's like it's weird. You're born with families. You make friends at school or at some place and you're still searching for belonging the whole time. And so when you kind of find it as an adult, it's it's pretty rare in spectacular. What is it that then led to you wanting to even become sober? I mean, you're saying at 15 you've have a suicide attempt. Yeah, but quite a few of those. What led you to that? What led you to want to get to that place? Depends on which part of me you're asking. Because if you're asking the part of me that likes to take the zoomed out approach that's tapped in the source and is seeing the bigger picture, what led me to that would be a divine soul contract that I signed up for. And something that I chose to go through as a part of my journey. You're asking me that's like down here on earth, really experiencing it. Just untreated alcoholism untreated drug addiction, untreated mental illness. It goes on for long enough. It becomes unbearable. I appreciate the parts because I think we all have multiple viewpoints and stories or why we end up where we have and you're so right that there's there's the version of you like you said zoomed out that can see the bigger picture that can see the journey you've been on. I can see that that was a choice for growth and transformation. I not wanting to take anyone's experience away. And then of course there's the reality of it. What was the point that you were like, I can't keep living like this. I can't keep doing this to myself. There were many that led to the attempts. But when I got sober, it was I had like a month off a month and a half off of heroin. I'd like detoxed at home. I knew someone that had, you know, Suboxone and so we were going to take the the strips and we were going to detox on around but I didn't realize I was on fentanyl so I took it too early, precipitated with straws, like, you know, the feddy's got legs. So it was very much, I was like, okay, well, let me just see if I can get through this without subs because then I'm going to have to tape it off the subs. Let's just cold turkey this. But it wasn't cold turkey because I was still drinking a lot. I was doing, you know, coke and I was smoking a lot of weed. And after about a month of not sleeping because that's what happens, I was maybe getting an hour or two at night, maybe three if I'm lucky. And I had a suicide attempt that didn't work, which I don't know the signs of it. You know, I could be wrong, but I don't think as someone that had a tolerance whatsoever for benzos at the time having taken an entire bottle, mixed with an entire bottle of vodka, I feel like that should have worked. worked. And so when I just woke up hours later, that was one of the first attempts where I'm like, fuck, it didn't work. Because a lot of people are like relieved when it doesn't didn't work or they feel regret the second they, you know, attempt it. I was so upset when it didn't work. And then a few weeks later, I had like a proper bottom with alcohol where it was just like, my behavior scared me into getting sober. And it was for a long time went back and forth between this place of I can't be here anymore. And well, it's not my time. So I'm stuck here. And I can trial these methods, but they're still not going to work. And if that didn't work, then, you know, I would run through all these other ideas. And I would see how it would go south where it's like, oh, well, you know, I could try and hang myself. But then it's, you know, it's not going to work. And I'm going to end up like, you know, kind of paralyzed or like I would just think of all of these ideas. And then how would go wrong? And I'm like, I'm stuck here. Like, it's not my time. I'm not going to be allowed to leave unless it's my time. And so I have to wait it out. And I didn't know that there was this secret, very special third place of, oh, this is great. And we love being here. And, you know, the good or the bad, the light and the heavy, these are all things that are part of the experience. And I'm here to experience the entire spectrum. Like I'm here for the whole enchilada. I want all the feelings because that's what I'm taking with me when I leave. You know, it's all the feelings, all the experiences. I feel like that requires a lot of bravery and courage to accept that. I don't know if I can take credit for that. I think it's, you know, it's something that happened through, you know, spiritual experiences, really. Whether any experiences that made that clear to you, because I feel like the journey to subradias so many ups and downs, there was so many. I had what's kind of called like an educational variety kind of spiritual awakening that is not like a bone, light light experience. Like I didn't have this crazy fallout of bad hero booming voice kind of an experience. It was something that happened solely over a period of time. And I learned how to pray. And I didn't know what I was talking to. But I think it was just the willingness to develop something. Over time, I started with prayer and meditation and just getting into these practices blind and just being like, well, you know, I'm out of ideas. Let's try this. I started noticing more and more little coincidences that I couldn't explain. More and more synchronicities, more and more God shots that eventually piled up into a mountain of evidence of like, there's gotta be something, you know? And one of them was a really cool experience that I had. I think I had about three years sober at the time or I was about to get three years sober. And I had heard someone say, I think it was like a friend of a friend and say, like, oh, you're higher power or God or whatever you believe in. The answer or the universe, the answer to your prayers is never no. It's always yes, not yet, or I have a better idea. At this point, I had almost three years sober. And, you know, I did a prayer and I had like this, it wasn't like my life flash before my eyes, but it was all the times since getting sober that my higher power was like, I have a better idea for you. And it was very much like a, okay, keep trusting the process because life is becoming more and more expansive. Yeah, your song evermore is, I believe, inspired by that relationship with God and spiritual. And it's, you know, it sounds like a love song and I like being vague enough so that things can apply to everyone. But that is very much a love letter to source, you know, great spirit, God, whatever you want to call it. The thing that has a thousand names, the thing that is the unnamable thing, you know. Yeah, but you said you wrote it like a love song. Pretty much. Yeah, it's like, I feel like I could hear it in like a nighties romcom as much as horny and it's so like the sky is blue and like it's very, but that's sometimes how it feels. Like, you know, when I, when I really developed like a conscious contact with, with something that made me feel safe, it was the first time I ever truly felt safe. So it was like, oh, the sky is bluer. What did your prayer look like? What did it sound like? It's often changing and it depends on what it is, but typically it's kind of just giving, giving it over, being like, well, my best thinking landed me in some pretty dark places and landed me in the gutter. So why don't you take the reins, whatever you are? And, you know, I'll tap in right before a show or before I, you know, and it's more like, please help me set aside all these things, help me set aside like my need to feel pretty or funny or talented or all these like insecure, help me set aside my insecurities, help me set aside my, you know, these things that I see as needs. And, you know, just use me as your instrument, as I use my instruments, you know. If I'm here for a reason and if you gave me these songs for a reason, help me just play them. How do you make sense of this idea of handing it over, but then still taking action and responsibility, talk to me about that balance between surrender and sincere action or I think a lot of it has to do with putting in the work and staying out of the results. I think that's a big thing and not trying to control outcomes. I think control can be a tricky slippery slope. You know, I've been recently trying out different things, trying out, you know, more tools of like exploring similarities between like Christ consciousness and Nirvana also looking into the Dow a little bit and I really like the have the patience to wait until the mud settles and the water is clear to make decisions. And so it's kind of like, okay, let me take a step back, give it 24 hours or give it however much time really tap in, check in with myself. Does this feel icky? Does this feel clean? Does this feel good? You know, and then I also have people that I can counsel with. I have, you know, guides, I have friends, I have people that I can kind of lean on and you're like, I feel like this is where my intuition is telling me to go. And if someone's like, that's a bad idea. Then for sure, we're going to take that into consideration and add that to the pot of things that we know. But a lot of it has had to do with learning how to be in right relationship with myself. And just waiting for the right indicated action to arise, I guess. Yeah, I feel like it's a constant dance. Yeah. It's a constant dance to do that. And I'm guessing that, you know, talking about relationships, I was thinking about in your song, Stitched, there's a lyric that I liked. You said, how your soul was stitched into mine with your heart eating into mine. Talk to me about this lyric because fascinated by, we're talking about godly relationships, spiritual relationships, because then we have relationships on the planet. Talk to me about that specific lyric. I believe in multiple soulmates. I believe that, you know, a soulmate is not necessarily someone that you are in a romantic intimate relationship with. I think, you know, parents can be soulmates. I think siblings can be soulmates. I think, you know, your arch nemesis in this lifetime is a soulmate because that is a great lesson of yours. Maybe that arch nemesis was your mother in another life. Maybe it was your father in another life. Maybe it was your husband in another life. Like, that's just my belief. And I know it's wacky, but that's just, you know, what feels right and makes sense to me. And this song was written about someone that I felt like we had experienced every type of human relationship you could have in all of our other lifetimes prior to this one. And so it was a very deeply rooted one. And it was, it was not that I loved this person more than other loves, but it was different. It was very one of a kind and it did feel kind of like a just stitching, which, you know, when not cared for the right way can become very co-dependent, can be, you know, especially, ours was a drug-fueled relationship. And yeah, it definitely felt like his heart ate mine. I was going to ask you that what's the difference between a relationship when your sober versus when your drug related? Oh, I mean, well, that depends if we're talking about emotionally sober or simply physically sober because I definitely got into relationships when I was physically sober and didn't really have emotional sobriety. And that can become a consuming relationship in itself, where the person becomes the drug. That's not healthy either. Experiencing a emotionally sober relationship, again, has to do with being in right relationship with myself and has to do with being intentional with everything I do and being incredibly honest with myself and incredibly honest and transparent with people around me. I love how you just define the difference between physically sober and emotionally sober. A difference. You know, I know there's some people that will claim to be sober and then they're getting into this fight with their roommate. And it's like, it's awesome that you're not on drugs, man. Yeah. That's good for you. Yeah. What surprised you most about sobriety? All of it. And I said this one when I got five years sober that I did, which was like a year and a half ago, like I can't believe I almost missed it all because my life has has become so much more opened up. You know, I have more trust and more intimacy and more closeness with the people in my life and people rely on me, people can rely on me. And that's really special. Was there a time when you felt like you really let people down? Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. I feel like that might be the universal experience for people in active addiction. Was there anyone that you felt like you really let down? My younger self. Or than anyone? Oh, fuck. It's a good question. I've done a lot of so much therapy. I went into a really deep depression around three years sober and tried all the things like the conveyor belt of medication. Probably over a dozen I think the SSRIs, the MRIs, like all of them. And you know, within a span of 18 months, one to five different institutions, you know, Hoffman, on-site, the glass house twice, you know, ended up checking back into my rehab that I got sober at. I was like, "You guys have a bed. They're like, we have your old room." I was like, "Ground going right out, be there 20 minutes." And I've done a lot of of inner child work. I've done a lot of inner teen work because those two girls are very different. They want different things. They have very different approaches to life. It wasn't until kind of this last year, I've really learned how to listen, differentiate between which part of me is speaking, hear what the need is, and then learn how to meet it myself. Which in the past would be, you know, if it was little, little P grasping for someone to fix this, ease this, you know, fill this hole, right, void. And then, you know, teen P was very much like, "I'm going to wait for me, don't touch me." You know, so it's learning how to listen and be like, "Okay, what's the need? Okay, she wants space and doesn't want to be touched. Okay, why don't we go take 10 minutes? Let's communicate. We're going to take 10 minutes. We're going to take a breath. We're going to tap into whatever, maybe smoke, maybe give her a cigarette and meet the need ourselves, you know. You ask about healthy relationships and in sobriety. And that's been one of the biggest things that's allowed me to start having that. And also learning how to have uncomfortable conversations, learning how to step out of this comfort, say the hard thing, say the honest thing, state the need. And it's done nothing, but foster more intimacy and trust in all my relationships. What was it like to heal that relationship for your younger self and with your younger self? I think it's an ongoing process. I don't know that it's healed. It's more healed than it ever has been and it's an ongoing process. There's something really profound in being able to say like, "I got you." We got out of that mess. We got out. I got you. And I'm sorry. Does it feel good to give yourself that forgiveness as well though? Because it's almost like you're saying sorry, but you also are doing the forgiving. It's more grace than anything and I don't think it comes from me. It's more grace than forgiveness. I feel like when I spent my three years as a monk, I did a lot of healing work. I did that from age 22, 25. Amazing. 38 now. And two years ago, I went through something and I started to do therapy more in order to kind of look under the hood, proactively, to be like, what have I missed? Like what work have I not done? Talking about this idea of that you're never healed and you're always doing the work. And then something happened in the last 12 months and I was like, I was looking for this and I couldn't find it. And I had to go through something in order for it to be uncovered. And so it's just this fascinating thing of like, I thought I'd work through this pattern and I thought I'd look through every nook and cranny and every crevice and every little thing and I thought I'd been to every corner and figured it out. And then something happened. I was like, oh gosh, I missed it. And it was like this really fascinating experience of proactively looking under the hood, thinking I would be able to avoid something in the future, only to realize that it doesn't work that way. You know the idea of the wheel? Yeah. Of course. It's a spiral. Please explain. Well, it's yeah, for those at home watching. It's this idea where sometimes we think we're going around in circles. It's like, oh, it's this again. And it is, but it's different each time. And the idea is the more we go through it, the more we learn. And it's instead of a circle is more like a spiral. I know about looking under the hood and know about lifting every little chachki instead of leaving no stone unturned. And something that happened last year was I'd kind of just kind of hit this wall with therapy where I'm just like, I'm just going to take a break from therapy because I've been doing so much for so long. Recently I started seeing a behavioral specialist for my OCD because that's been like the main thing that I feel really needs to be looked at. I have, you know, thank God for mission with depression, you know, one day at a time and my sobriety. So I do things daily to keep my to maintain my sobriety. But yeah, I'd reach this point in my therapy where I'd kind of just plateaued because I looked under every stone. And, you know, I kind of envisioned it as like a trailer of like music here. Like I've got, and I've just looked on, there's not a single piece of dust on anything in there because I've looked at all of it. Now I want to learn how to just unhitch the fucking trailer. How do I, you know, that's what I want to learn. And I've also found that there's a lot of stuff that, you know, was born through experience. So it needs to be healed through experience. And that's a really beautiful gift that relationships offer us because if I have like attachment stuff, I have issues with attachment that's talking about it's not going to really do anything. It actually similar with with with addiction stuff, just talking about it with the therapist isn't going to do anything. I need to take action. There needs to be some kind of experiential process for healing to occur. This episode is brought to you by Walden University. Balancing work, life and big goals isn't easy. That's why Walden University helps working professionals get the W with tempo learning so you can earn your degree at your own pace while gaining practical skills through real life scenarios. You'll also learn from faculty with real world experience and have support start to finish. Walden University set a course for change. Ready to start? Visit WaldenU.edu today. Certified to operate by chef tempo learning available in select programs. What were those actions and experiences that you feel started to unravel some of that healing or the ones that you practice now? I'm constantly picking up and putting back down or swapping out my spiritual toolkit. That's the biggest thing. Therapy has been an incredible tool. I feel like I've taken bits and pieces from all of these institutions that I've been to because like I said, I went to five different institutions with five years over. I had five years over, I checked back into places because I'm like, "This, I'm not okay." That time was what inspired the album cover because I actually did do ECT. I was about to do that. I feel like there is something that I got from each experience because again, my belief is that everything happens for a reason. It's not that those things didn't work. It's that I'm taking what I can and taking what works and leaving the rest from each experience and from each modality and from each. There's certain things that it's just a very simple tool. Hand on heart, which shocker on my hands on and how are we going to breathe? Let's practice being gentle with myself. That's just a very simple tool that has carried me through a lot. The ECT therapy was because of a particular suicide attempt. Is that right? It wasn't an attempt. It was, I got very close. I got very, very close, like, like centimeters away. It was after I had felt like I tried everything. I mean, like I said, the conveyor belt of medication, five different institutions, CBT, DBT, EMDR. I had done somatic. I had done experiential. I talked to the empty chair. I'd held the pillow. I had beaten the things with bats. I had wall screaming. I had done so many things. TMS did help a little bit with the OCD, but they had no effect on my depression. The Stelligangli and Block was a very, you know what that is? It's like a shot of light came into a collection of nerves in your neck and it's supposed out with PTSD and kind of reset your nervous system. I got like relief for a week. And then I went back into the other side and got another week. And, you know, Hoffman gave me probably the longest hint of relief was I had like a couple months after Hoffman where I was really happy. And that was amazing. And something that I've learned with with all things is integration is the number one thing. If I'm not integrating the things that I learned from these places and these experiences, I'm going to resort back to how I was feeling before. So without integration, yeah, I kept, you know, just getting worse and worse and worse. And once TMS didn't work, my psychiatrist was like, he was like, it's not as barbaric as it used to be. They used general anesthetic. You're knocked out when they when they shock you, you know. For anyone who doesn't know what ECT is, can you explain what the experience is and how it's meant to heal? Yeah, you go in and I have a lot of metal. So I had to replace all of the metal in my face and, you know, with plastic earrings and, and yeah, you go in, you got your hospital gown. They knock you out, strap you down, put a bike in your mouth, electrocute you. It helps with the neuroplasticity in your brain. If I'm not mistaken, it still is the leading most effective form of depression treatment. I did nine sessions in three weeks. Is it painful? Are you not feeling anything? The first couple of times it is because they're still figuring out how much, you know, Tylenol are told all to give you afterwards. You know, I'm very anal about like if I'm going to be going under, what do you think? Are you giving me what are you not? I've had experiences where they gave me something that felt too good. And it's like, okay, let's daily maintenance, keep this a variety going. So I definitely ask multiple, multiple, multiple times. And I have OCD, so it tells me to. But yeah, I mean, the first time I woke up and it was the most sharp pain I'd ever experienced in the side of my head, like it was-- - And what is that pain? What did they tell you that is? - Well, I've been at soreness from getting electrocuted. I mean, that sounds so scary. - Yeah, it was in the side effects or not really. I mean, I definitely had days completely not in my head at all. I'd have friends visit me and I don't remember even seeing them. I don't remember them coming by. I have evidence that a friend came by because she brought me a bag of vapes just before I quit vaping. But I don't remember her being here at all. I don't remember the conversations we had. Amnesia was one of the primary side effects of that. Was there no part of you that was scared or you just felt that was the last resort? - I'm very much a lead with the chin kind of person. And so yes, there's some fear. The biggest fear is what if this doesn't work? There was definitely a point where I had to-- I just had to stop because I was responding to the treatments and it was working. But then there was a discussion of like, will you rather be on these two medications for the rest of your life or are you gonna have to come back once a month and continue getting shocked for the rest of your life? And I'm like, that's not gonna fucking work for me. And I think, yeah, little bits and pieces of everything that I got along the way over those courses last two and a half years, taking everything I possibly could and just completely flipping my life on its ass and being like, how do I do this in a way that is sustainable? And a lot of it had to do with holistic health. I do believe that a lot of Western medicine is educated in disease and not health. The disease is the focus. And so I'm like, how do I go the other way? And so it's a lot of-- to get my sleep in order was a lot of saffron and two kiwis before bed at night. That completely changed my sleep. Sematic exercising, pilates, like finding the hardest gym in LA and being like, I'm gonna do two sessions in a row three times a week, which I am a bit of an overdo at sometimes, rock climbing as much as possible because that is incredible for my body, incredible for my core, really being right with my body. It's meditative. It's a puzzle that I can figure out. It's highly rewarding. It's highly confident spousting. It's highly humbling. - You did that. I'll do the indoors. - Both. That's what I mean about humbling. So going from a top rope climber-- yeah, I'm a 5/11 B climber. That's pretty fucking good-- to like lead and then having to-- like losing a grade and having to build myself back up, switching to lead, and then going outdoors and being like, oh, I'm not a 5/11 B climber at all. I'm like a 5/7. That is very humbling and also so rewarding. That's been a huge part of my life picking up new spiritual tools. My animals are a huge part of my nervous system getting regulated. Figuring out which CPTSD symptoms are the most prominent. How do I work with those things? I'm a very big fan of energy work, acupuncture, traditional Chinese medicine, like just all the things that are health-oriented as opposed to, oh, well, this is a disease. Let's treat the symptoms. I quit vaping over a year ago. I did rolling cigarettes again a few months ago. Quick caffeine for like six months, which really helped the sleep. Process sugar was a big thing. And I still love sweets. I love sweets. Yeah, no, I will go to Air One and I'll get a chocolate cake. But I get it from there because they're not going to be using all organic products. So every now and then, yeah, OK, I'll do something so I have a sweet tooth. It's really bad. But where am I getting it from and what's in it? Is a huge, huge thing. I've used sugar as a drug for far too long. Yeah, well, I mean, it's eight times more addictive than cocaine. Yeah. And I think they did scans on what happens when you take a narcotic and how it lights up one piece of your brain and then sugar lighting up the entire brain. Is-- yeah. It's pretty shocking. I was really surprised when I saw that. And then also part of me was not surprised at all. And it's in everything. Yeah, I've definitely over the years until I developed a healthier relationship with sugar. Now I don't do any refined sugars like six days a week. But I was using it as a drug easily. Oh, yeah. It sounds crazy to say that because people are like, what do you mean by that? I'm like, well, no, I'm using it to sedate, numb, get through something difficult, relax your emotions, whatever else it may be. And just because it's legal doesn't mean it's-- There's a lot of things right now that are really cool. Maybe shouldn't be. How long have you been writing this album for now? I wrote a good portion of it during the depressive spell. Some of it was being recorded right before I went into VCT. So I had the idea for the cover like a year and a half ago. It was a long process. And then some of the stuff got re-recorded this year. And Stich was written within a span of 60 minutes, 59 minutes, while the new vocals on Maker were being comped. And it was very much like a "Oh, let's try and squeeze" is on the album last minute. And we did. And we got it mixed in time. So yeah, there's some of the songs are two years old. Some of them are a few months old. What was the most recent suicide attempt you had? The most recent attempt was right before I got over. Right. But I did get very close to actually going for it right before ECT. Which was about a year and a half ago. Yeah, somewhere around them. Was that scary to be back there once you're sober? You get scarier for the people around me. Because-- Because it's a familiar place for me. But it's-- I mean, it's scary for the people around me. And I have spoken to the people that were closest to me. And saw me the day that I almost did it. And I definitely feel like there's trauma there. And it's been a long but very rewarding journey getting to where I'm at now. And also with an understanding that that may happen, there's no predicting. It's everything's temporary. Nothing lasts forever. I think happiness is temporary. I think pain is temporary. I think all sadness is temporary. And so knowing that I may get sad again. And I may go through a dark time again. Hopefully we'll be bringing the information with me this time of there is a way out. You've done it before. You will do it again. Which I didn't have with me the last time. Really. I had experienced depression for a lot of my life but it hadn't gotten that bad before. So I do have this newfound understanding of how to get through it. And again, there's this piece of me where it's just like ringing on. If I got to go through it again, I'll go through it again. Because it's going to help someone. So the familiarity is actually helpful now. Almost. Yeah. I've been here before. Yeah. I know what to do. I know what my resources are. My spiritual toolkit, my friends, my support system. It's almost like when we do hard things in life and everyone's done hard things. Everyone who's alive and living today has done hard things. We just don't see them as hard. We just see them as our life. And so we just think we've lived. And it's really helpful when you can actually look at your life and realize I can do hard things and I've done hard things. And remember those when new hard moments come around. Do you actually feel a sense of empowerment to think I've lived through this before? And I think a lot of us don't give ourselves enough grace as you said and give ourselves enough credit. Because we just think, oh, that's my life. It wasn't that hard. It was okay. Yeah. But recognizing those moments gives us so much more fuel to push forward in tough times. Yeah. What's giving you fuel and empowerment today? What's like, what's propelling you forward? And now that you're on tour, the album's coming out like a lot of it is all these things that I've been doing almost daily to maintain my happiness and maintain, you know, being very intentional with everything is so rewarding that those rewards are just like, oh, this is going to keep going. But then obviously like the music is so rewarding. I'm on tour right now. Part of it is a very small headlining tour. And then the other part is I'm playing support for the Pretty Reckless, which is a band I listened to in high school. And I'm also playing songs from this album that I made for the version of me that was in high school that would have liked this stuff. Like she was very, she loved the Smash and Pumpkins that she loved Nirvana and she loved this very '90s kind of thing. And I'm like, here's, I got to make this album for her and anyone else that felt that way when they were that age or even now. And there's something very nostalgic about it all. And I mean, you use that word. That's one of my favorite things, even like my- I didn't even know that. Photography is a hobby of mine. And you know, every photographer kind of has their own thing. My best friend is a phenomenal photographer. She shot the album cover art. She shot all my promo. She shot the inside slip for the vinyl. And her primary thing is more like liminal space, kind of like back rooms. My thing is more like nostalgia. And that's just what feels good sonically, what looks good visually, what just kind of resonates the most with me. Why was it so important to have ECT on the front cover of the album? Shock value. Literally. Yeah. I don't know why I said no. I mean, it felt no stardew when I listened to it. And it was just, I was like, glad I shared that with you because yeah, just it was my niche. It was my immediate experience of it. Paris has been such a, it's been really refreshing doing it for like, I can tell that you're in the work. Oh yeah. And that's like really beautiful. It's such a endearing thing when someone's able to talk about the work, when they're in the work as opposed to before and after, which is what we kind of try and present as a western standpoint of the work. I always thought, as you said, that the work is cyclical and ascending and not linear. And never stops. It never stops. And so when I'm hearing you talk today, I feel like you've like taken us into a moment when the work is still churning and you are still processing. And I find that to be a true act of courage and vulnerability because it's easier to be on the other side, so to speak, even if it doesn't really exist. And they're like, this is what I went through and this is what I've learned. And it can sound kind of romantic and poetic, but it doesn't necessarily always feel true. Yeah. And also, I mean, it's like, did I get out on the other side of what that was? Yes. Yes. And in order to stay there, I have to daily implement things. I mean, it's the same thing with addiction. It's kind of like this idea of daily reprieve and not reprieve in the sense of relief, but reprieve in the sense of like the postponing of one's execution date of like daily, one day at a time. I am doing the things that I know keep me good, whether that is my mental health, whether that is my drug addiction, whether that is, you know, being a good friend, being a good family member, being a good sister, what are the things that I can do daily that are going to keep me good? And I could say, yeah, I made it on the other end. I can like chill out now. And if I go backwards, you know, cruising is a, in physics, it doesn't work. It means you're going downhill. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you either growing or dying. What's the one thing you'd like people to know about addiction? On a human level, if you don't share my beliefs as far as like, oh, yeah, we come down, we incarnate, we've chosen these things. I chose my name. I chose my parents. I chose my traumas. I chose my zodiac sign, whatever. If that belief doesn't align with you, then I would say, you know, that's not something people choose on a human level. Like my soul chose this thing, but I didn't wake up one day and be like, I'm going to be a drug addict. And a lot of the things that, you know, may not be the drug addict's fault at some point, it is, it is that drug addict's responsibility to clean up their mess, clean up their side of the street and, you know, make amends. Yeah, but it's normal. It's kind of like a tornado kind of tearing through a town when the tornado finally stops. So you're going outside and be like, oh, well, I don't see. You're looking at all the calamity and you're like, well, I don't see any problems here. You know, it's kind of like. Clean it up. At some point, there has to be, you know, responsibility taken, but fault, I don't know. I don't know about that part. And what's the one thing you'd like people to know about sobriety that they might miss? Both sobriety and healing are not linear. And that's a day of a time. Paris, is there anything I haven't asked you that you wish I did? No, but I want to say thank you for being so respectful and safe. And this has been a really special container. So thank you for facilitating that. Of course. Thank you. We end every episode of on purpose with a final five. Okay. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum. Okay. I'll probably get you to break it. Okay. I try. I try. Okay. Okay. And then I get too curious. Full sense. So Paris Jackson, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? There's going to be criticism and misunderstanding, regardless of what you do and what you say and how you are. Then you might as well do it makes you happy. As long as you're not causing harm. Great answer. Question number two, what's the worst advice you ever had to receive? Don't trust anyone. Don't trust anyone. That's the worst advice I've ever gotten. Because some of the most beautiful life experiences have come from trust because trust fosters safety and intimacy and intimacy and safety, fosters healing. I love that. Can I agree with you more? Such a need. Question number three, how do you decide to trust someone? Timing consistency. The anyway. Yeah. Listen here in tuition too. Question number four, tell me your most spiritual belief in your most skeptical belief or take one belief and debate them on both sides. My most spiritual belief, everything can be spiritual. The deepest, most painful, I said this early, the most painful moments of suffering in my life have been alchemyzed and once alchemy has become medicine, that's spiritual. That is a spiritual experience it hurts and it's that heavy, hard, mulch energy, but it becomes magic, you know. Am I least? You're my scapegoat or? Who's to say? Fifth and final question, parents, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Okay, I have three give these. Oh wow. Okay. People usually struggle with it. Yeah, I'm sure all three. I love all three. The first one is if you want to be a parent, you have to apply for a license. That is a brilliant law. I love that one. Hot tick. Yeah. Second one is I want there to be more regulation on the poison they're spraying on organic produce. And the third one is I want to match the laws that there are in other countries. There's other countries that some of the chemicals we put in our food are banned in other countries. I'm trying to match that. And I have a bunch of opinions on the school system, on the justice system, on, you know, rehabilitation. I have so many views on that. That's the difference. That's I will go for another hour. But yeah. There's a three of the best laws we've ever had. Now anytime ever anyone ever asked, like what did anyone else say? I'll just name all three of you. Yeah. Those are brilliant. Brought to you. I'm so excited for you. I'm excited for everyone to listen to the happiest day of my life. I hope it gives them that nostalgic, catholic healing feeling. Thank you for the trust. Thank you for joining me on my platform today and giving my audience an opportunity to hear about your story and your own words. And I hope this is the first of many interactions we get to have. So thank you so much. Thank you, Jay. Yeah. Thank you.