Paramount Merger Pause, Meta AI Optimism, and the Peptide Boom

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InGen is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes. Earn up to 10% back on hostages. And in 2025, InGen customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join InGen every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at InGen.com slash Vox. I like it when baller women have like a trophy husband. I think that's, we've been doing that shit forever. Why should you be the only one with a trophy? Trophy husband. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. Where are you, Scott? Los Angeles? I'm still in Los Angeles where it is 70 degrees and spectacular here. I turned the camera around. I'd love you to see the Hollywood Hills here, but it's fantastic. Yeah, actually, it's nice here in New York, I have to tell you. It's lovely. Yeah, I heard it was great. Really beautiful weather. I did a lot of stuff here in New York. Tell me about it. I went to see Jellicle. Jellicle ball cats. The first time I've ever liked cats in my life, which I do not like cats. Jellicle ball cats? Yes, they set it at a drag show, essentially. And now it works. Cats now works perfectly. Wasn't it always a drag show? No, it was like a bunch of people wandering around being cat-like, you know, with makeup, a lot of makeup situation. They were playing cats. They were actually playing cats. But in this case, it was a drag show and it makes total sense. And you're like, ah, I see. Yes. You're like, you know, voguing and doing all the stuff you've seen in the films and stuff like that and the documentaries. It was wonderful. And it was beautiful. It was joyful. The crowd was packed. Now, this show is closing because of the high costs of Broadway, but I have to tell you, it was absolutely packed and absolutely people. It was such a joyful experience. It was just a lot of fun. Nice. And what else? I can't be it. No, I went and visited an ex-president and an ex-secretary of state at their home this week. Oh, you're so coy because you're so important. I'm not important. I just am visiting. Yes. I can't mention who it is. I'm Kara Swish and I never name drop. I can't say why. I only keep people anonymous when it's obvious who they are and it's the ultimate name drop. No, I went and visited Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton at their home, but I was visiting Hillary on something I'm helping her with. Let me guess. Does it remind with podcasts? I don't know. We'll see. I don't know. We'll see. Can I give you and her some advice? Yeah, please do. She should pick the half dozen or dozen or three to six podcasts. She should pick the half dozen or ten podcasts that she really enjoys that are a little bit unexpected and be a regular guest. She shouldn't do her own podcast. Oh, well. Well, too bad. Why is that? Why is that Mr. 500 podcasts and won't stop making them? Well, yeah, but Scott Galloway needs the relevance and the money. She doesn't. Secretary Clinton, first off, at this point in her life, and I'm projecting, I don't know if this is true, I think she should be just doing whatever the fuck she wants and enjoying herself. And the thing is, you know- Maybe this is what the fuck she wants, but go ahead. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. I think she would have more flexibility, more relevance, and be less of a- I mean, there's just a lot of downside risk to her starting her own podcast with her name on it, quite frankly. And I think she can have her cake and eat it, too, and have as much relevance and impact by being a guest on various podcasts. But that's just my view. I think she's going to regret it if she starts it. Not that I know her, but I think a year and a half in, like, you know what this is like. I mean, you're a workaholic, but- So is she. Is that right? She's a hard worker. Yeah. Are you kidding? I can see that. That won't happen. That woman is like- that woman can, like, instantly tell you, like, a very detailed in triplicate explanation of almost any world event, and domestic. She's really quite a brilliant person. Agreed. Agreed. I think it's just the format and the cadence of it she wants to demonstrate that excellence. I hope she does something. I just think she should be appearing on yours and some other people. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see. I think she still has a lot to say, and actually, people have not met her yet, in a way. I know her, and others do. And so, you know, a lot of people still have a lot to say. And she's incredible shape, and so sharp. Yeah. She looks great. And she's very vibrant. Very vibrant. And so, we'll see how it goes. You know, it's interesting, because YouTube just signed Becky Kennedy's Doctor Very Popular on social for a show. There's a whole renaissance of things happening now, again, in terms of sort of reformulating television and everything else, that I think is really interesting at this moment. I think we were very early to it, and have done a very nice job figuring it out. We're pioneers. We're trailblazers, Tara. We're pioneers. We're trailblazers. We made it to California. We're the innovators in our seventh decade. It finally happened. No, but that's what I mean. I think it's just a really interesting time for substantive voices. I think post-Trump, there's a real market for smarts, experts, smarts, scientists, things like that. Well, I mean, if there's any one thing, it's that. These institutions and this middleware is going away. Yeah. And great talent bubbles through. I mean, that's the most positive thing I think you can say about these platforms and social media, is that people no longer need to give money to the DNC. They just give money to John Ossoff. Right, exactly. Yeah. And people don't need to go kiss the ass of some executive on the 45th floor of the Rockefeller Center to try and get on MSNOW. They can just go live on Substack. Yeah, it's an exciting time. It's an exciting time. It is an exciting time, especially with the reinvention of that iconic piece of culture, cats. Jesus Christ, talk about something I'm definitely not going to see. I'm telling you, I did not want to see cats, and it's amazing. Everyone who doesn't like cats loves this, and I'm telling you, it was joyful. It was beautiful. I don't like anything cultural, though. Do you? You're not. Come on, that's not true. That is not true. The Odyssey will be the most cultural thing I've done in years. It's true. The Odyssey and the World Cup. That's it. Yeah. My funniest one for the Odyssey, there's this continuing. There's this continuing discussion of it and what it means and everything else and all these sort of knock-on effects, and one, it's a movie about a man who finally faces consequences, which I thought was so funny. Anyway, there's a lot of really interesting discussion. I love all the discussion around the Odyssey. It's all interesting in different ways, and people are having a good time talking about mythology. They're having a good time talking about literature, about the movie-making itself, some of the stuff, the stuff he did, around the themes, around the arguments about the themes. I just love it. I love the whole thing. People are- Yeah, I'm going to see it. I'm going to see it on Thursday with my son. I'm excited for what you think. I can't wait. Yeah, I'm excited to see it, too. Yeah, because you're not part of the cultural conversation, if you haven't seen it. Anyway, it's sold out here in New York at the IMAX until late August at this point, which is really interesting. Anyway, I highly recommend it. I was either going to go see the Odyssey or I was going to go see Phantom of the Opera performed by, I'm trying to think of a politically correct term for someone who's incredibly woke. I can't go there. Anyways. All right. In any case, I'm having a great time in New York. New York is very exciting. I have lots of fun things to do this week. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today. Speaking of Hollywood, Paramount Skydance is pausing a Warner Brothers Discovery merger until legal challenges are resolved or until June 1st, 2027. That's like a long time from now, folks, whichever happens first. The decision comes after a federal court granted a temporary restraining order preventing the merger from closing for at least 28 days. Paramount is calling the pause a significant win, which it is not, saying it provides a direct path to a trial based on evidence. But investors do not agree. Neither does Kara Swisher. Paramount shares hit a 52-week low on the news. The delay could get costly. $650 million per quarter ticking fee begins in October. And if the deal falls apart entirely, Paramount would owe $7 billion breakup fee. By the way, Paramount just brought on Beth Wilkinson, someone I know pretty well as its lead attorney, very good attorney. She successfully defended Microsoft's Act. Division Acquisition. She's also representing Nexstar in its antitrust case. Beth, the company you keep. She's going to win. She'll win. Well, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see what's winning at this point, at this point. So talk a little bit about what you think. I have thoughts on it, but I'd love to hear yours first. Well, I don't think they have a legal leg to stand on. What they have is delay. And delay costs shareholders, employees, it's effective and they'll probably extract a pound of because in order. to win the deal. One of the things that Paramount Skydance offered in the purchase agreement was a ticking fee of $650 million per quarter while this deal sits in limbo. That's roughly $7 million per weight. So these Democratic AGs who are probably sick of a Republican weaponized DOJ have said, fine, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And they'll probably be able to extract something, whether it's guarantees of certain shooting within their state or spinning a certain thing. All of a sudden, less than no one is going to know who the California AG is going to be, right? They'll start getting a lot of time on MSNOW. So this is political. They'll get some awareness. They might get a pound of flesh. But I think ultimately, Beth will show, will bring up a bunch of expert witnesses in the form of economists who will say, yeah, emerged Warner Brothers Skydance is 8% or 6% of all viewing time versus Netflix at 9%. And YouTube at 13%. The market has already voted. Paramount, as you referenced, hit a 52-week low after celebrating what management called a legal win. This was such a Trump thing, trying to pretend this is anything but bad news. And investors understand something executives often don't, and that is winning in court can still mean losing economically. So again, the real competitor here isn't Skydance or Warner Brothers. It's YouTube, Netflix, TikTok, and increasingly probably AI-generated entertainment. And as usual, legacy media is fighting yesterday's war while tomorrow's competitors are scaling. But this is, again, this seeds economic value and advantage from the legacy players to the new guys who aren't caught up in court right now. And YouTube can just scale. Yeah, that's absolutely true. I don't think she's going to win at all, actually. Really? Yes, they don't. And look at right now, the price of Warner shares, $25. The delta between the 31 and 25, as Bill Cohen actually pointed out, is quite high. It's supposed to be about 4%. It's a lot. That's a lot. Investors have decided this deal isn't happening. That's what I think is exactly what's happening. Well, they want a premium. So what you're referring to is merger arbitrage. There's a whole class of investors who, when a deal is announced at, say, I think it's announced at 31 bucks a share, whatever it is, if it's trading at 25, what is that? That's about a 22% or 23% premium. They don't think the deal is happening. That's right. But what merger arbitrage guys do is they say, okay, I think it's going to close. If it doesn't close, I buy the stock now. When it closes, I got my 31. And it's hard to find 22 or 23% return. But what you're saying is, to your point, the market is saying there's now approximately, if I'm doing my math correctly, a one in four chance this deal doesn't happen. That's correct. And what would be interesting is what happens to the stock if it doesn't close? Collapse. Collapse. Here's what I think. This is what I think. All right, let me go. This is someone sent me a very interesting legal document, which I thought was great. They chose financial hemorrhage over legal. Legal precedent. This tells you everything about how they assessed their chances on August 3rd. They were going to lose on the preliminary injunction. They were absolutely going to lose on that. And that would have devastated the stock, devastated the stock. And you couldn't overturn it on appeal. This is something called abuse of discretion standard. And the merger would have been over if they lost on August 3rd. So this lawyer they had, a guy named Kessler, in hiring Beth, it's a great hire. She's great. She's terrific. I don't really care how terrific she is. This is, they have, I think they have decided, this is, let me read you this. Paramount blank. They looked at August 3rd hearing, two PI motions, two markets, A-list writer declarations, a judge who already tipped her hand and decided that no ruling was better than another bad ruling. That's a rational litigation decision and a catastrophic business signal. Peace guy isn't just scared. They've entered a survival mode and they're trying to control the bleeding. The question is whether the patient can survive long enough. And they're trying to control the bleeding. And they're trying to control enough to reach the operating room. And as you said, other competitors are scaling, including all these tech competitors and also Disney and others. They have all kinds of freedom to do things. They have this ticking fee that's very expensive. And at some point, the savings that they were going to recognize in this deal are going to disappear, right? That they were going to do through the coordination. And so Oracle stock is way off. This is what's paying for part of this. This is delay. You don't have to win at litigation here. You don't have to win at litigation. You have to delay the litigation. And Beth can push for, and she's going to try to do this in court, a shorter time span in between what's happening here. But it's frozen. It's really pretty much frozen. So she can say, let's try a scheduling. It's on July 31st. They want to get it this fall. It's not going to happen this fall. And the judge is going to set this schedule. And this judge doesn't seem in any rush. Now they've also forgone the appeal into the Ninth Circuit. That's going to take an hour. And they're going to have to do it again. And they're going to have to have to take until the trial is over. So you know that California and the group is going to appeal if they lose. It just keeps dragging and dragging on. And so I don't see how they get this out the door unless they have a settlement. And so another document I got, which was really interesting, and they said these are the most likely ones. One, states win at trial. Permanent injunction, merger blocks, guidance walks, paramount restructures, or finds a new buyer settlement Paramount offers structural remedies, divest the studio, sell cable networks. States accept or reject. Deal collapses economically, also possible. Ticking fees exceed value of Warner Brothers or Skydance, invokes termination clause, merger dies without a verdict. And then if Paramount wins a trial, merger closes after more than $1 billion in ticking fees and severe reputational damage near certain appeal by states. I just don't, I got to say, I don't know. She's a talented lady, but this is not, time is not on the side of Paramount here in that regard. So again, as I often do here, I'm just sort of flying on instruments and thinking out loud, but I wonder if the fulcrum here, so economically, if this goes on long enough, it will close because- It will close the deal. If it goes on long enough, but, and there's a big but here, the data, the only way this legally doesn't close when they chase it all down and they've had a chance to actually evaluate it is to prove it's a monopoly. And I think they're going to have a very difficult time, the AGs proving that, because essentially a combined Warner Brothers and Paramount would represent about 12% of total US TV watch time and YouTube currently stands at 13. And in terms of box office sales, a combined Paramount and Warner Brothers represent roughly 25% of the domestic box office. Now, having said that, if the fees, if this becomes economically untenable because of delay and ticking fees, they might just say, throw up their arms and blame Democrats. And by the way, this is political. All 12 AGs filing cases are Democrats here. The judge has decided this was a Biden appointee, but what's good again, what's good for the goose- But the Trump administration waved it through when lawyers of the Justice Department didn't want to. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. This is, if you're going to weaponize the DOJ, against us, whether it's cutting off fees to our greatest research universities with no legal precedent, if it's carving up TikTok like a political give back to your Republican donors, fine. You want to go that way? Or waving this deal through when lawyers of the Justice Department did not want it to go through many. I mean, there's a ton of examples, the FTC going after the view. I mean, it's just, if you're going to be ridiculous, folks, I actually like Democrats, punching back. At some point, I do think the merits of this case or the lack thereof will result in a judge saying, okay, this is going to close. The fulcrum, I want to get your view on this. I think the thing, if this dies, I think the reason it will die is if open AI continues to have negative momentum. Why is that? Oracle stock for a while about, I think it was 9 or 12 months ago, Larry Ellison became the wealthiest man in the world because they announced a deal for something like a trillion dollars in CapEx commitment from open AI to build out, help build out their infrastructure around compute and inference. Oracle stock is dramatically off. And if open AI begins, or the cracks continue to widen at open AI, Oracle has now become a tracking, a public tracking stock for open AI. And I got to think that the dad's piggy bank, which is Oracle shares are quite frankly, that's where this check gets cashed. And if Oracle shares come under enough pressure and dad goes, you know what? All of a sudden, this went from 5 or 10% of my net worth to 20 or 30%. And it's going to, quite frankly, I'm going to wake up in a suit that's uncomfortable for me at this age in terms of finance and debt. He might say, sorry, son, I don't, I can't refill your GreenLine credit card as I do because the Deliveroo and the Uber has become too expensive. I'm not using the metaphor for what I do. Yeah, it's down 52% in the past year. 52%. That's striking. That really is striking. Year to date, 39%. Six months, 32%, one month, you know, it's just headed down. You're right. I mean, this is what I had said. Remember I'd said this a couple of, this Oracle stock thing that I was paying attention to? That's besides the point. I think that they just over-indexed on their confidence. They were like, well, we got the Trump a roll over, we gave the EU some stuff they wanted, And then they were like, China said yes. I'm like, what's the difference? It doesn't really matter because these guys have a – what I thought Bonta did very smartly, and I agree with you, it's a different market. But the judge is also calling that irrelevant, the streaming market irrelevant here for this particular case. So I don't think they have a great way in with this judge. And I thought they were overly confident. They did not think Bonta would be quite so controlled because he could have done a get rid of CNN, horrible CBS. They did none of that. They did only a very specific, small, discreet lawsuit that will move, will delay this just enough. They don't have to win. They really don't have to win here. They just have to delay it. And the question is, how much will the Ellisons put up with to own this? That's the thing. How much – they're rich enough to do it. It's just a question of how much they want it, right, I guess, on some level. And, again, delays in dealmaking for Warner Brothers, delays – I mean, the asset becomes less. It's less valuable. They can't make any major deals now. They can't do any major things. And the other people will benefit. It's not a good situation. But I think we're in violent agreement here. And that is the legal merits here are important. But I would argue the legal merits all point to eventually this would close. But they can get in the way of the closing and force the Ellisons to perhaps walk away if they make getting to closing too expensive for them. And it's not only a function of the price and the expense. It's a function. It's a function of how much money the Ellisons have. In sum, if Oracle is down another 50 percent, I don't think this deal closes. If it's up 20 or 30 percent, I think they have the staying power to weigh these guys out and hire your very talented friend, who, by the way, has a very handsome trophy husband. I just want to point that out. David. He's dreamy. He's dreamy. She's going to be mad at us. Oh, really? Yeah. Every now and then I get a text from her. I like it when baller women have, like, a trophy husband. No, he's a very talented jerk. Come on. We've been doing that shit forever. Why should you be the only one with a trophy husband? She thinks we've gone too woke, I think. I think she does think we've gone too woke. Oh, well, let me. Word to your mother, sister. A lot of people think that. Anyways. We're woke-ish. We're woke-adjacent. Woke-adjacent. We're woke-adjacent. We wear one Birkenstock. Listen, this is a devastating business problem. It's really bad. It's not good. You know, this is, look, it's just, this is to me, they were too arrogant. They were too arrogant. They did. They didn't think this guy would come to play. It's going to, media's obsessed with itself. They're going to constantly report about it. Come on. It's an interesting case. It is interesting. It's all the tech people. It's media. It's tech. It's Larry Ellison, the satanic-looking Larry Ellison. It's so much good stuff here. Come on. It's a great story. It's a great story. And now they brought in Beth Wilkinson, the star litigator. She's going to get him in trouble. I had drinks with the guy who runs Warner Brothers Movies or one of the co. And he's just like the loveliest guy, this guy, Jesse Herman. Yeah, there's more. And he's just so nice. And I'm like, what's going on there? He's like, I just show up and I do my work. Do my work. You know, it's just like, I don't know. I'm just showing up, trying to find good ideas to turn into movies that people want to see. Yeah, I just, I don't know. I don't, I think, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this deal doesn't happen. This deal doesn't happen. But again. I'm going to. I don't. I agree with you. You might be right. I agree with you on the market, but I don't think that's what it's going to get judged on. This judge has already signaled that. No, no, no, no, no. There's no. Winning isn't winning. Yeah, but we're saying the same thing. This isn't about the legal argument. It's about the prospects. It's about Oracle's stock price, which is directly linked to the prospects of OpenAI at this point. So if you want to know whether this deal is going to close or not, tell me what the narrative is and the value of OpenAI is in. In six months. Yeah. That's it. Well, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see if they've got the staying power, you Ellisons. Boy, they weren't expecting this, I don't think. And also, let me just throw in one last thing. Guess what's happening in November, the midterms. This family does not look good during the midterms, given all the crap they were doing at CBS and all the statements about what they were going to do at CNN. They are going to run into a buzzsaw of Democrats on top of this, like, by the way. So just all down and to the right. So to the right, to the right. I hope so. I hope you're right. And they shouldn't have done the CBS mess. It brought ridiculous attention to a very small part of its business. It was stupid. I think that's accurate. That's absolutely stupid. I think they created a smoke where they didn't need to. They could have just let it run quietly and then done all their nasty stuff later. But they didn't. They couldn't resist. Anyway, the rescheduled White House Correspondents Dinner took place Friday. Jesus Christ, this thing. Speaking of media, what a story. Three months after a government forced the original net to be cut short, Trump opened by saying, this show must go on and condemning political violence. That was good. But quickly shifted to an hour of attacks on Democrats, celebrities, and journalists. Many of his jokes falling flat. And even Republicans didn't think it was good. Those attacks include personal jabs at CNN's Caitlin Collins. How dare he? Who was accepting an award for her White House coverage. Trump was also sat there as the Wall Street Journal accepted an award for its reporting on his ties to Jeffrey Epstein and that famous birthday greeting thing with the lady's vagina. You know how I feel about this Correspondents Dinner. I think it's just repulsive. And I had offered to pay for the scholarships because I hated it so much. But I covered it as a young reporter. I thought it was terrible 20 years ago. This was just bad. And, you know, don't come for Caitlin Collins, my friend. I thought she acted rather well, although I suspect nobody should have been there in the first place. But that's just me. Well, let's bring this back to me. I need your advice. All right. So this is a picture I'm holding this up for our viewers on YouTube. You and Caitlin. This is me and Caitlin. Notice what she's doing. Is she smiling here? Smiling. She's smiling. She's, oh, God. She's, in addition to being a very talented journalist, she's also a lovely person who smiles when appropriate. She smiles when appropriate. That is correct. And I saw this thing. I mean, the clips are everywhere. And I just thought, I think about our brand, right, the U.S. brand. There are a few things that have been worse for the brand than the White House Correspondents Dinner. Never. Yes, the worst. The worst. Well, first off, what better marks America than an event with our, you know, technically our most iconic journalist and the president in America? The mentally ill man with guns manages to interrupt the whole thing. And then we reschedule it, and we have this 80-year-old man making the creep. This wasn't even about insults. It's like, this dude is just so fucking creepy. It's like your grandfather whose doddering shows up and won't stop talking about his grandson's girlfriend in a very uncomfortable way. It's like, dude, just take your limp dick and just take it somewhere else. Oh, get out of here. It's so. Oh, God. I don't know if the clip, the air in that room was like, oh, fuck, God, this is just the worst thing. And let's go macro. The White House Correspondents Dinner is like Blockbuster holding an award show for who has the best DVD. No one gives a shit. It's like, come on. The institutions here, there's a theme across all of this. The through line is the institutions are ceding power to individuals. And to individual journalists who go on social media, this shit, this thing needs to be buried. Or at a minimum, don't invite the president. This thing just was so awkward. Yeah, exactly. Just have a nice dinner with you. I'm not a big awards person. I hate awards. I don't go to them anymore because I hate them in the first place. And now I've said, you know, I actually hate them. Why am I going? I have never, I've only covered this as a young reporter. I never went. I've gone to the parties. But I've always found it to be this little. Like, haha, laugh, laugh with the cabinet members, whether it's Obama people or whether it's Trump people. It's gross. It's gross in a way that really makes people hate journalists. And that was always my issue with it. It's like, it's fine for those cabinet people to go. It's like, whatever. They get to, like, influence journalists. But just dressing up and my issue, the whole thing was I knew he was going to do this. Everyone knew he was going to do this. So what's your choice? Not showing up, which I think is the best thing. The second one is, what if walking out in a tuxedo, how dare you, sir, makes you look idiotic. And sitting there makes you look. There's no winning for the journalists. They shouldn't have gone. Yeah. But yes, exactly. And that's the problem. They should have done a nice dinner or something for the winners. And the scholarships. But to sit up there and have him, like, hand out an award at the Wall Street Journal. The whole thing, it's like, we have lost so much standing. Globally. Everybody has. We just look like idiots. Oh, wait. They had to reschedule it because a mentally ill person with access to firearms interrupted it. So they redid the thing. And this president had to sit there and then make a stupid, creepy comment. It's like, how could we damage the brand and just look like a more strange, weird nation? I agree. And then laughing with him. And then the incoming president of it, Jackie Heinrich from Fox, like, laughed. And joked it up with him after he did the creepy. I mean, seriously. It's like, the whole thing is like, I don't, Jackie, I don't care if you're at Fox and you're conservative. That was gross. That was gross from a conservative or a liberal point of view. And not just Caitlyn. Like, and then using Dylan Mulvaney. Anyway, please don't do this anymore. When I said don't do this anymore after the shooting, I got so many, like, press people like, yeah, that's really unfair. I was like, go fuck yourself. This is bullshit. We shouldn't be doing this. It should be over. So, folks, just in terms of how precious broadcast journalists think they are, podcasts reach exponentially more people. Do we have an award show giving each other little trophies? There is one. Did we go? Oh, wait, we got awards. Never mind, I take it back. Yeah, but we don't, it's fun. Like, there's no president there. It was the Webbys. We got one at the Webbys. That was fun as fuck. That was a really good party. There was no president. There was no, there were all these cool people there. It was fun. And that's the only one I like, because I think it's an actually fun party. But mostly, no, right? Did we come to any? We wouldn't invite the president. We're not going to shake hands with the president. That's what we're definitely not doing. Anyway. Anyway, folks, Caitlin Collins, we love you. You did a great, let me tell you, she acted with a lot of dignity. She's a young woman, and she acted, I would have been, like, slapping him silly, but of course you would have been arrested then. But anyway, it's just terrible to put people in that situation. And putting themselves in that situation is not the best thing either. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Metta pushes AI optimism. Support for this show comes from Delete Me. Most people's personal data is just floating around on the Internet. And in the age of AI, we're especially vulnerable to scammers using it against you. If you've searched yourself and found your home address, phone number, or family member's name, you know it's unsettling. But the good news is Delete Me can help. Delete Me does all the hard work to wipe your personal information from data broker websites. It was named the top pick for data removal services by Wirecutter. I have used Delete Me for many years now, and all the recent reports have surprised me because of so much information out there about me and how careful I am with my privacy. And yet data brokers continue to assemble all manner of files about me and about family members and others that I am always shocked by when I see it. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me. Now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash pivot and use the promo code pivot at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash pivot and enter the code pivot at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com slash pivot code pivot. Support for the show comes from Engine. But if your team is. Still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500. When your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com slash box. Have you ever wondered who invented rock and roll or why Fleetwood Mac fell apart or what it was like at Motown in the early years? Well, do I have a podcast for you? My name is Will Anderson. I'm a songwriter, a musician, and a huge music history buff. And I'm so excited to announce my new podcast, The Monday Music Club. I teamed up to make this podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network because ever since I was a kid, I loved hearing and reading stories about classic artists, recording sessions, and music history. And I wanted to have a place to be able to take what I've learned and share some of those favorites with you. Every Monday, I'll be releasing a new episode and deep diving into a new story with experts and special guests. And it's going to be a blast. So if you're a music history geek like me or even just a casual music fan, jump in because I promise The Monday Music Club is going to be the podcast for you. Scott, we're back. Meta just launched a new campaign making the case for AI optimism with an ad showing Metaproducts as tools for human connection. The video is set to David Bowie's Five Years, which is a song about the end of the world. Now, let me be fair. Bowie did say later that he wrote it in hopes people would be optimistic, just so you know. Just so you know. I want to correct that. A lot of people were like, it was about the end of the world, but he was hoping to turn that around. But let's listen to a clip first. Some people will have you believe AI will make us less connected. That it's going to leave us behind. We couldn't disagree more. Call us optimists. Call us dreamers. Just as we've always done, we're betting on people. Make it stop. Jesus Christ, seriously, make it stop. Mark Zuckery shared the ad on Facebook writing, As we enter the next wave of AI, we continue to believe the future is for everyone. The message comes months after Meta told staff it was cutting 10% of its workforce and scrapping 6,000 open roles to offset AI spending. I would like your marketing, let me just tell you, I'm just telling you, this says midterms all over it. It's like, now we believe in people. Before we believed in giving Donald Trump money, but now, people. Thoughts? Marketing professor, put your hat on and tell me what works and doesn't work here. I know exactly what's going on here. Somebody really attractive who wears black has shown up and talked about intangible associations and emotion. And they have so much fucking money. And then Mark and the CMO there has convinced themselves this was a good idea. This goes back to the notion of, don't these people have friends? I mean, Mark, can you tell us how connecting people fits into teen girls self-harming? Or are you hiding evidence that one in eight British teens cite Instagram as a catalyst for their mental health? I mean, when I sat next to the woman you know, Dina Powell, and she wrote, she tweeted the thing and said, it's always been about connecting people, call us optimists. And the only thing I can say is, I don't know. The only thing I can think of was, sit down. I'm an AI optimist. You're, I mean. Come on, marketing professor. Meta's new ad has this incredible soft-focused family using AI glasses to connect more meaningfully. The stalker glasses, yeah. Yeah, okay. Nothing says intimacy like a $300 pair of glasses beaming your kid's birthday party back to a fucking server farm so Zuck can serve the moment back to you as a Nissan ad. It's just, this is so cynical. They are the last people to be talking about the upside of AI. They're going to invite so much criticism. I don't know who the CMO of Meta is. You're a fucking idiot for approving this thing. What would you do here? Because they have other ones. They have another video I saw about data centers. They're trying to turn that idea around that it does help people. It creates jobs, et cetera. They're now moving. And again. That's a good one. That ad is smart. PR and talent. Just very adroit, no ethnically ambiguous people pretending they're happy wearing these glasses. None of that shit, just communications around what is trying to call balls and strikes. Their program around vocational training and investing in vocational training. That is a great program. That is great branding. It shouldn't be an ad. It should be their PR team, which are some of the most talented people in the world getting that thing placed everywhere, but not running ads on it. This thing is so tough. It's going to take a while. I'm going to invite so much scrutiny around, okay, this is Jeffrey Dahmer running a Jack in the Box commercial. It's just, you just don't do this. What are you thinking of proving an ad saying that you're AI optimists and you're connecting? What the hell? They also cursed in it. I don't like when they curse in ads. I don't like it. Yeah. So I don't. I find. And I just, when Dina, she seemed like a lovely woman and she put out the ad. I just, the first thing I thought of my mom, I can't do this because she's friends with Kara. I thought, sit down. You're the last people that you should be claiming that you're AI optimists. But what do you do if you're trying to get back the, you know, look, I'm telling you, this is so motivated by what's coming in November and the payback. What do you mean by that? Because I think they're all like, let me just tell you, I, there isn't a tech company that suddenly hasn't hey-girled me recently. All of them. All of them. They're like, Kara, we haven't talked in a while. Like after the Trump thing. I'm like, you fuckers for like throwing in with Trump, you corrupt pieces of shit, like essentially. And now they're like, we need to talk because we believe in safety. Like I'm getting a lot of safety. We should have a meeting. You know, what you've been saying has really resonated with us. Like what you're saying about like corruption. I was like, aren't you paying the bribes? Like it's really, I just feel like there's an understanding that there's going to be payback right now. That's one. Two, what would you do? Like at some point, like I know people. I hate when I say this, but you know, how do you turn it around? Is there a world in which Mark Zuckerberg could do something to not seem like so villainous or maybe not? Maybe not. I don't know. I mean, I recall when Gates was villainous and then until the Epstein stuff, he was non-villainous, right? So what does he, what did they have to do to get, what would you, what would the ad that you would do here? Let's help them. Let's help them in their thing. Say they're genuinely saying we made a mistake. We want back into humanity. What would, or they can't be, or they can't come in back into humanity because they're doing all this other damage. I hate to say it, but it's the Rupert Murdoch brand strategy. Rupert just owns it. He's like, I am who I am. I work behind the scenes. He doesn't run ads trying to make the Murdochs more likable. He doesn't run ads trying to say, Fox, we're good for America. Well, there was fair and balanced, if you recall, for a minute and a half. But they just, quite frankly, they just, they just own it. And the reality is, is that the Zuckerberg brand in the, a brand is for the most part a very strong brand for the fall following reason. America has opted for shareholder value over competence and the well-being of the Commonwealth. We really respect and admire a company that's able to create this sort of shareholder value. Their products are amazing. I hate to admit this. I am addicted to Instagram reels. I think it is incredible. I think it's incredible. Yeah, I like threads, as you know. Their performance, their shareholder returns, the fact that they hire a ton of talented people and create economic security for them, the fact that housing prices are up 28%, in large part because Meta is making so many people wealthy. A lot of people have registered enormous shareholder gains. Do your thing. Go on background. Try and defend yourself. Fine. I think the vocational investment, I think it's $150 million, is absolutely genius. But having an average shareholder, I think it's a great thing. I think it's a great thing. Having an average shareholder, I think it's a great thing. Where the tagline is presence reimagined, that to me feels like them saying, we already have your face, your friends, and your location. Now we'd like to own your depth perception. I mean, I don't want, they should not bring attention. They have a need to be liked. They do. Shouldn't be running these ads. Yeah. They have a need to like, we're not villains. And I don't know what they could do. I mean, I don't want to be liked. Like, that's what I mean. I think wanting to be liked is part of this. And look at like, look at that interview Elon did with the financial, with the- Economist. The economist, Beto's. They feel like they're misunderstood and they only have a chance. He couldn't shut the fuck, I kept thinking, stop talking. You are like, you know, and she's so adept. She's amazing. And I was like, stop talking. Oh my God. Like, stop talking. At some point, I was like wanting to get him off the stage because I thought he doesn't even, know how awful he is, right? At some point. I think in the case of Meta, I think they do want, they do understand there's a shift happening, a vibe shift, rather significant. And they're trying to figure out how to be liked again. I'm not so sure they're ever going to be liked. I think you're right. I don't, I don't know. The advice, the advice is the same. They should take the advice from Albert Brooks to William Hurt. When William Hurt says, what happens when your reality exceeds your wildest dreams? And Albert Brooks says, keep it to yourself they should just continue to perform, continue to add shareholder value, go on background when they feel they're being treated unfairly. But to run this like sugary ad of we're here to connect people. No, you're not. That's not your aim. That's not what you're trying to do. They should just put wins on the board on things they can put wins on the board and like helping people get jobs, maybe giving money to like, well, you see teen girls, like they, we don't want their money, right? Like you're the ones that cause the problem. You're the ones that cause the problem. Or well, part of the problem, not all of it. But the economic growth, economic engine, incredible products, incredible shareholder value. I personally think it would be a good move at this point for these guys to self-age gate. Say we're not letting anyone onto the platform. I think they're going to do that. I think they're going to, they're going to do it the night before it's about to pass in Congress is when they'll do it. I think they're going to move into that space. I think, but then there's the beef with Apple and Google over that. Who, who decides age verification? That's another fight by the way. And Apple and Google aren't extinguishing themselves. In that fight either. Anyway, it's a really, it was a, not a great ad. It's not stick with the simple ads. We're providing jobs. We care about people's, you know, we're going to help this. I, you know, it's interesting because Mark does switch between, I want to be liked and fuck you. And I think fuck you is probably where he mostly lives. And he must, he has to become comfortable in that spot, but I don't think he is. I felt like, I felt like, okay, them spending a hundred million dollars to try and say we're is like your uncle showing up with a Ferrari to convince everyone he doesn't miss his ex. It's just, it doesn't ring true. I don't know. They're trying to make surveillance capitalism seem aspirational and likable. Yes, I know. They should get rid of the creepy glasses or like lean into the creepy glasses or something. Like, I just, it's really interesting. And I think they're going to, I think ultimately he's going to have to live with the fact, and this movie's coming out, The Social Reckoning, which I think is not going to make him look very good. So I don't know. I can't, I just hope a lot of the creators do like, what if ads were honest? Because this would be, we're bringing people together, usually to sell them creatine that they talked about with an earshot of a phone. I mean, that would be the real ad, right? Or to suggest innovative ways of self-harm or how 90 pounds and 5'10 is normal. That's how we're bringing people together. That's not funny. That's why am I laughing? That's not funny. You know what they should do is, you don't like us, we know, but we have some good stuff. Like, we're not, we're not, what can we say? We're not Elon Musk. We're not Elon Musk. We're bringing people together by elevating your aunt's conspiracy theories. I mean, I just, I can't wait for the- We should go in there and do a presentation. I think we're not Elon Musk is their best argument. So just, anyway, to be fair, the song is fine. I know people made a big thing of it. Actually, he was talking about a better future in that song, too. Oh, wait, I got another one. If you have to explain your joke, it's not funny. I got another one. You're a meta where you found your college roommate. Now, it's where you share your roommate's dad's post that Michelle Obama is secretly a linebacker. I mean, bring me in. Put me in, coach. Let's go in there. I'm ready. Let's go in and help them. Let's help them. They should have a sense of humor. That is one thing Mark has not had. Enough of his sense of humor. He does not have one. He's not going to laugh at this. Sorry, Dina. I tried. Meta, we're going to try and sell you something you searched about at 2 a.m. six months ago. Okay, stop. All right, we're moving on. This Trump administration- Moving on. Sorry, Mark. We apologize. Not really. I got one more. Based on my feed, the future is AI-generated Jesus holding six puppies while giving away free RVs. Literally, Meta, if you have any sense of humor, you will run my ads. You will run. I should do this on AI. Can't you create ads using AI now? Maybe? Yeah, yeah. Okay, I think this is genius. I should start a podcast on ads for Meta. I've got one. Meta, fucking elections since 2006. There you go. Nice. Anyway, all right, moving on. Donald Trump, we have to stop making these up. Donald Trump says administration is long. Launching a trade investigation into European Union after it hit Google with a $1 billion antitrust fine. In a Truth Social post, Trump accused the EU of robbing American tech companies. Trump claimed the latest fine was issued without explanation, even though the EU regulators said it stemmed from failure to comply with the Digital Markets Act, which we've known about for a long time. Regardless, Trump said the US is not a piggy bank for Europe and is threatening to hit the EU with substantial tariffs. His usual go-to is his tariffs, because those just expired, and he's trying all manner of ways to put new tariffs, and that's what he's on. You know, listen, Obama released a similar thing at the time of the original Digital Markets Act and the other act. So, you know, a lot of presidents do this, but, you know, the tariff way, he never did anything about it. Obama complained about it, as I recall, and was defending US tech companies. But thoughts on this? I'm so exhausted by all of it, because I have trouble understanding it, and usually the stuff that's boring is the important stuff. So, like, two decisions, half a billion fine for self-preferencing its own search. The EU has essentially become the de facto regulator for American tech, because America won't do it itself. So I'm a little bit, I'm of two minds here, and that is when the primary form of tech innovation coming out of the EU is regulation, that's not a great sign. It reflects poorly on both of us, quite frankly, I don't have a lot to say here, Carol. What are your thoughts? By the way, the new, I do have the new Meta tagline, though. We're not the same Facebook that ruined Thanksgiving. This time, we won't drink this time. I promise not to drink. I got a new job as an agent. I'm literally starting the new Meta agency, whether they like it or not. Oh my God. I'm the new Meta agency. Wouldn't it be cool if they brought us in? Bring us in, Mark, bring us in. We can help you. Put us in code. Put us in code. Put us in. Put us in. Pay us enormous amounts of money to insult you. Meta, we're not just ruining Thanksgiving anymore. Yeah. If you thought your drunk uncle practicing karate at Thanksgiving was creepy, wait till you see what the algorithm's going to feed you. All right, I'm going to very quickly dispense with this, and I'm going to say one thing. Let me just tell you, Meta, you really should have us in. You should 100% have it. That would show you understand the problem that you have. I think it would be really good to have us in. Hey girls, you know what I get? I don't get hey girl, I get hey, hey. And by the way, they don't call me. They're PR representatives. They're a comms person who shouts them. Hey, so-and-so is going to be in town. We'd love to grab a drink with you. Everyone thinks that if anyone offering me a drink, I'm there. Yes, he shows up. I do not hate you. He's an alcoholic and buying out for drinks. I'm like the less intelligent Christopher Hitchens. I'll tell you what I do when I get the hey girls. I go because I'm like, okay, sure. I'm happy to reengage with you given I was accurate. No, I want to find shit out. What are you talking about? Caitlin Collins. I see. She's the best. I love that Caitlin Collins. This is my credibility right here. I think she works hard. I really like Caitlin Collins. All right, with the EU thing, this has been going on forever. We don't do any regulation. They may be guilty of doing too much, but too bad. Y'all knew the fines that were going to be here. Do something about our tech industry in a way that satisfies European regulators. And if you want to operate there, you live by their rules. I'm sorry. And Trump can complain about it, but hitting with tariffs, his old trick, is ridiculous. Tariffs are bad for the economy. They cause inflation. They're a stupid way to hit back, and it's not going to work. So it doesn't matter. So I think it's just a wash in that regard. Remetta, you can keep making jokes all the rest of the show. All right, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the FDA loosens restrictions on peptides. Ooh, something Scott likes to talk about. We'll talk about what happens next. Scott, we're back and talking about the latest buzzword in wellness, peptides. I'm so tired of hearing about peptides from people after my show. People take them for everything from weight loss to anti-aging to muscle growth. They're the miracle drug. By the way, GLP-1s are peptides. Right now, people are getting on these so-called gray market online through longevity clinics, even TikTok, outside of the FDA approval process. But last week, a panel of doctors and pharmacists, all of whom are, you know, they're going to be getting on these so-called gray market online in the tank, voted to recommend the FDA ease access to several peptides that are popular with influencers, celebrities, and RFK Jr. That's in spite of government scientists warning about the lack of data showing these drugs are safe or effective. It's like nuts. The FDA isn't saying that drugs are dangerous. They're saying they don't have enough information, which they should get, and maybe not a good enough reason to restrict access, but approval would benefit telehealth companies, compounding pharmacies, and frankly, RFK's agenda. I will say that the FDA is not saying that drugs are dangerous. They're saying they don't have one quick thing since I didn't cover them in my show, but the gray market is so dangerous, and they are mostly made in China. It's a very dangerous thing to be putting in your body, and there still are very unclear studies on whether these things work, and there should be. By the way, there should be studies paid for by the government, which we use to fund these scientists to do these things. But just letting them out there among the people is such a mistake if we don't have, and I understand slowing things down is a problem, but sometimes it's for the best. And these things can be very, very dangerous in terms of where they're coming from and whether they're safe for use. Scott, go ahead. Peptides. Well, peptides is an overused term. GLP-1 is a peptide. And my understanding is peptide is just a series of molecules. I agree with you that, again, it's the same through line. It's a lack of trust in our institutions. We used to trust our institutions to tell us what we should put into our body or what we shouldn't, or that we had a smart FDA or a smart CDC that would help protect us. I had, then, with two actors on, when was it? Thursday, I think, or Saturday. Anyways. And they're both on this Wolverine stack, peptide. And I like this stuff. I take supplements. I'm on testosterone therapy. I was doing NAD for a while. I like to be out. I do believe there's something to this stuff, but I wait till there's a decent amount. I guess NAD is the most. And I also do creatine. As someone who does a decent amount of research, the peptide jury is not in, or these peptides, I should say. Yeah. GLP-1, they are. Or they're getting there. Oh, GLP-1, it's FDA approved. I mean, many of these GLP-1s are FDA approved. And by the way, every piece of research that comes out, the externalities are positive, which is the most unique thing about that. And we're getting real-time data of people using them. Usually, they're now done by doctors, much more so than at the beginning. But go ahead. Oh, by the way, the same ad agency that's helping, Meta, is rebranding Marlboro as a wellness startup, just so you know. Anyway, so finish your thought, your peptide thought. Again, I think it's this people deciding to do their own medical research and come to their own conclusions because an influencer tells them that Leo is on this thing. And actually, I don't know if he is or isn't. No, I get your point. Yeah. I do think there's something. I have never done. All the stuff I've done, I have never done it without medical supervision, meaning I have my blood drawn all the time now, and I do all these crazy analyses of it. And they'll say, you are low on these omegas, take fish oils. Fine. I'm a fan of intervention and being thoughtful about plussing up the gaps in your nutrition or whatever it might be, especially as you get older. Between the ages of 20 and 50, your body's pretty goddamn good at figuring out what it needs. Unfortunately, it starts to die because the majority of us are supposed to be dead by now. So some intervention, I think, makes sense. This stuff feels cutting edge to the point of buyer beware. I don't. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree. I have a lot of people that are like, it works. I'm like, does it? Do you know? Do you know there are studies? I'm like, actually, no, no, there aren't. They're very inconclusive. And my worry about them, and they should be studied, absolutely. Is where they're coming from and where you're getting those things. And you wouldn't. It's sort of like getting like, here's some milk from a guy on the corner. It might be good, it might be bad. And so a lot of it does come from China, especially these compounding agencies. And there are no strictures on how they are. It's like eating poop lettuce. You might have a good meal, you might have exploding diarrhea. And it's too dangerous to do it. But everybody, I get so yelled at. That's the one thing of peptides. And I'm like, I'm sorry. It would be great if they worked the way they say. They also are ascribing far too many, like it's a solution for everything, which is all these supplements. They're not. Sometimes they're a very small little addition to your life. Sometimes, like GLP-1s, they are truly groundbreaking. But to say they do everything is just unproven. And you have to stop pretending so. Every person who comes up to me, I'm sorry, you're incorrect. And you shouldn't be putting things like this in your body without medical supervision. Or, or scientific proof. Sorry, I'm on the scientific proof. Anyway, that's the way it is. That's the way it is. But, you know, meta now with more peptides. All right, Scott, one more quick break. Hold on, hold on. New tagline. Facebook, where nuance goes to get beaten to death with a folding chair. Isn't this ad, isn't essentially this ad just the broadcast embodiment of an abusive ex-husband Zuckerberg seeing you and whispering in your ear, baby, I've changed. Baby, I've changed. Baby, I've changed. Here's the thing. Why don't our listeners write in their taglines for Meta to help them? Well, it's also, you know, it's disingenuous as a brand guy. These ads are absolutely beautiful. But the thing is, their actual product in terms of design, it feels like Craigslist fucked QAnon. It's like QAnon, QAnon, QAnon. Let's re-brand that. Baby, I've changed. Baby, I've changed. I'm a new man. Baby, I've changed. Take me back, baby. I just love you so much. You forced me to hit you. We should not be laughing at that. No, it's terrible. You're terrible. You're terrible. We're terrible people. Anyway, I'm sure we'll get lots of letters. Anyway, why don't you all write in and tell us what you think the taglines for Meta should be, and then we will read them. Anyway, see if you can do better than Scott, who just doesn't seem to stop. All right. Look at him, the marketer in him is just energized. All right. One more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. I think I'll go first. Go ahead. First fail was the story came out in the Post, which I was, the Post news side is doing a great job, I have to say. This is the headline, police vetted dubious allegations only after Buttigieg was separated from children. The people, this is the Pete Buttigieg kids were taken away from him for a time and questioned in a really terrible way by authorities. They were investigating these allegations made and the former cabinet secretaries was separated from his four-year-old twins. And now the Michigan attorney general is investigating how the accusation led to it. And it turns out that the Post talked to the woman who did it and she seems unhinged from what I can tell from the interview and didn't really understand it and basically, I think, made it up. And nobody was checked, like the, I think it started in Indiana and then he was supposed to be in Alabama, but none of the authorities before they took the kids away checked on the source of the information. I have said this again and again, Chasten and Pete should sue these people for what they did. And the damage is done to their kids. Like, unnecessarily without any checking, but because of these ideas around gay parenting, which you know was part of it, because this woman essentially did not think gay parents, gay people should be parents, from what I can tell from this interview. And I have to say, it's just, it's mind-boggling that our authority, I get it, one crazy lady's going to make some allegations. That happens all the time in this world now. The fact that the police and others didn't vet it is really, it's just such an incredible of Michigan authorities. So I just, it's such a fail, such a massive fail. Massive, enormous, repulsive fail, I have to say. And my win is I have this beautiful show, This Cat's Jellicle Ball. It's closing soon. I recommend people go see it. Just beautiful. It's so kind and human forward, speaking of something that is human forward, and funny and just everything Broadway's great at. And I just, Clara dressed herself up in this beautiful spangled fierce dress and this wonderful fascinator hat. And it was just a wonderful thing. So I just love when people are out at the theater and in theater, in movie theaters and things like that. And so I can't recommend these lovely, joyful, beautiful, artistic, human-centered stuff that's coming out lately. And it's really, it does, there seems to be a shift where people just want to get together or celebrate real humanity, not in meta ads, but in that way. So I would say get out and do something with a lot of people and have some fun. All right, that's my win. Go ahead. Well, my loss is the White House Correspondents' Dinner. It should be canceled or they need to reinvent it. It was the one I'd built to fake a truce and it couldn't hold for two hours or it hasn't been able to hold for two hours. And the tell here was during this ridiculous, weird, creepy rant on a respected journalist. The whole room just went so silent. It felt like you could cut the air with just ick. Terrible, terrible for our brand. Anyways, we covered that. That's my loss. White House Correspondents' Dinner. Whoever the governing organization is has to realize, like, this is over. It should be canceled or not done for a couple of years and they need to reinvent something else. My win is it's not getting very much coverage, but what's gotten a decent amount of coverage is Ukraine with their incredible supply chain and drone and AI technology has been going after oil infrastructure. What they've done, which I thought, is just genius, is they've gone after something that has hit Russia perhaps even harder and that is they blew up the Wild Berries factory and it ends up, basically, Wild Berries is the Amazon of Russia. And this supposedly has caused more rage about the war than a million deaths and casualties because the reality is the majority of the soldiers and the fatalities are that toll on families has been levied against kids and families from black families, black, we've got a term, rural Russia. And the elites don't really care, but you start fucking with their ability to sell their fashion into people in St. Petersburg. Supposedly, this has just outraged all these creators and all these small business people and also has had an impact on the front lines because a lot of people were buying kind of basic military equipment and gear. And I thought it was just so interesting that they decided- And Putin's on the run, it looks like. He looks like he's hiding away, too. Right. Right. Right. At the same time. People, well, A, supposedly he's paranoid and B, he's very, he's very scared. This is so, I thought this was so interesting. They want, what are they doing? They're saying, okay, we've shown we can kill a thousand people a day. Russians don't seem to care. The Russians, arguably Russia's core competence, it's an incredibly educated populace, an incredible, incredible appreciation of culture and the arts and technology. A lot of very redeeming qualities about the, about Russian culture. But their core competence, quite frankly, is they're willing to endure more suffering than any, than any society in history. We lost 400,000 people in World War II. They lost 20 million. And they were ready to keep fighting. And, but what they've said is, okay, we're gonna hit you where we think it hurts most for you. And that is going after your ability to order shit overnight. And I thought it was just such genius. You know, I think Ukraine is not only showing, I mean, they're, they're essentially, they've said, okay, we're bringing the war to you. And it's just interesting how they've decided to bring it to the Russian populace. So instant visible pain versus sanctions, kind of year long, you know, year long impact, if you will, or years long impact. I thought it was very innovative. Anyways, my, my, my fail. - You know, this would happen. This would be like, if we, if we declared war on Canada, they would get us eventually. You know what I mean? Like they're right, right next to each other. They've proven very strong. Although there's, you know, there's been some back and forth with, he fired, fired one guy, one drone guy, and then everyone got mad about that. And then he ended up firing another defense minister in Ukraine. There's a little bit of back and forth there, but can I note something else that he was doing that I thought was rather clever? So he's now going to the MAGA right to talk to people. Did you see Laura Loomer? Who was so anti-Ukraine and pro-Putin went there and interviewed him as suddenly his biggest follower. Like he's so great kind of thing. I think that's also very clever. His, even though he has his own issues internally with corruption and everything else, he's been very adept at also appealing to the MAGA base here, which I think is probably very smart. - Yeah. It's, I mean, you gotta make some motions. You're like, why, why should anyone care what Laura Loomer thinks? But at the same time, anything that gets press that highlights even the crazy, crazy's have recognized that it's in our best interest to support Ukraine, I'm, I'm here for. - Yeah. - So yeah, have at it, Laura. And next, maybe next you can do a segment on how the greatest innovation in history is vaccines. - Yeah. - That's the one I'm waiting for. - She suddenly is going to be pro vaccine. Anyway, those are, those are good ones. Those are excellent ones. Oh, by the way, I have one more quick win. Everybody go see Ride or Die with Octavia Spencer and Hannah Waddingham. Oh my God. It's. - What's that? - It's a show on Amazon and it's hysterical. It's two ladies. It's so ridiculously, it's such a ridiculous conceit that they run around and they're spies, but these two couldn't be the best pair. And they look so different and they're so different in general. And I have to say it's hysterical. Ride or Die. - It's called Ride or Die? - Ride or Die. And I love Hannah and I love Octavia. I think she's one of my favorite. It's Hannah from Ted Lasso and she's amazing. She's amazing. She's, I love her. I love them both. - Oh, the one, the Hannah that was in Game of Thrones? - Yes, she was in Game of Thrones too. Yes, that's right. - Yeah, yeah. - She's very good. - She's amazing. She's a tall drink of water. And Octavia is incredible too. Just incredible. Just incredible. Go see it if you wanna enjoy yourself all day long and twice on Sunday. You'd like it, Scott. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, this week on On, I'm talking to actor and comedian, Jeff Hiller. He's in two of the buzziest TV shows of the last year, Pluribus, where he just got an Emmy nomination for just a guest role. He's amazing in it. And Widows' Bay. He talked about why people are drawn to these shows. Let's listen to a clip. - These are dark worlds, but it's not like our dark world. You know, it's like we can figure it out. We can pull apart the lore and figure out this mystery. Whereas we don't have that kind of control in our own life because there's, I mean, every time you open "The New York Times," it's like, "What? That happened?" - Anyway, he's a really great guy. He's sort of a character actor and I love characters. There's so many great character actors in all these shows, including, and also Severance, same thing. Just really nice to see all these shows do so well. And he's terrific. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to "Pivot" and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. - Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, Todd Wiseman, and Christine Driscoll. Additional assistance from Kate Gallagher, and Brad Sylvester, and interview this episode. Thanks also to Dubrow, Ms. Saveria, and Dan Chalon. The Chakra was Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow "Pivot" on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to "Pivot" from Vox Media. We'll be back later in the week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. Have a great rest of the week. - Support for the show comes from Enjin. Running a small business, means every dollar has to work hard. Enjin is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. And in 2025, Enjin customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than a thousand businesses join Enjin, every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at enjin.com/vox.