Paige, Geno, and the Ugly Parts of Winning With Tyler DeLuca

[MUSIC] Welcome to the Ringer WNBA Show. I'm Sierra Zoki, and I am joined by one of my favorites, Tyler Diluka, of No Cab Space. He's already aweshocksing. I'm blushing. I love it. I'm blushing. [LAUGHTER] Wow. Tyler, you have one of the most expressive faces. It's like one of the things that makes it so fun to watch. Yes! Yes! [LAUGHTER] Thanks. Yes! Oh my goodness! Yes! Oh, jeez, yes! Oh, me! Oh, me! [LAUGHTER] I'll just so happy to be here, you know. Just so happy to be here. Oh, for anybody who's watching this on video, if you aren't watching this on video, you've got to tune in because I've made him read within-- not even-- I don't think we've been able to-- I'm going to call him much. I'm going to incredibly pale. It doesn't take much, admittedly. So, like, you know, like-- But, you know, I'm just so happy to be here. You know, that's why my favorite podcast is in two. Oh, my goodness. So, just really happy to have here. I love opening with a mutual glaze. [LAUGHTER] I will continue it, too. So, one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the plot is because I have been thinking a lot about Olivia Miles' MVP case. And you made this amazing video for no cap space about Olivia Miles in the ways in which she kind of resemble Spider-Man. Olivia Miles Morales, one might say. [LAUGHTER] But I'll let-- before we get into the "Links vs. Valkyries" game, I thought just another fantastic "Links" win. Another reminder that it really is the "Links vs. Everybody" else against the "Links vs. Valkyries" team that can kind of-- they can make them uncomfortable in a way that other teams can't, but it ultimately doesn't matter because the "Links" just have all the answers to the test. There I say, Olivia Miles has all the answers to the test. But tell the listeners about this video that you made. Yeah, so, I mean, obviously, Spider-Man is a bit topical right now, just in general with the movie. But I'm a massive Marvel fan. And I don't know what kind of-- it just kind of struck me. And I was like, I heard there was so much Spider-Man stuff just on my feet and everything. And so I just kept hearing, with great power, there must also come great responsibility in these different forms. And it just kind of struck me that nobody in this WMBA season is having to go through with that and deal with that in the way that Olivia Miles is in terms of what that phrase ultimately is, is a young person who has been gifted this power, if you will. And is now being handed the keys to operating that power with the consequences of everyone surrounding them. And I'm like, the Minnesota links, we're not supposed to be this, at all. This is like when you're thinking about the preseason and what the expectations were, I know my expectations, and I think this was kind of the general expectation was like, if they could just be in the playoffs when the Fusa Collier comes back, like, you're good to go. And so it kind of started there where it's like this responsibility has been not only just taken and accepted, responsibility given by Cheryl Reeve to Olivia Miles, but she's ran with it in a way that was never anticipated. And so like, I kind of just grew from there, and it was kind of just a fun video, but like ultimately it's rooted in that, you know, in the aspect of like, this is a young person that was overlooked. This is a draft class that was, had no clear number one pick. She obviously was not the number one pick in this draft class. There was like, you're thinking about what it's sandwiching between Caitlyn Page, this draft class, then it goes ju-ju and Sarah Strong. Like, you're talking about pretty clear number one picks across the board with all these draft classes. And yet, this was the one that I think solidifies that these drafts are only going to be more important going forward, and there's really not going to be a down draft given the amount of talent influx that's happening just across the women's game. But also that there is like a legit guard revolution happening across the entire WNBA. And so I did it in different ways and drawn the connections in different ways between Spider-Man and Miles, but ultimately it's rooted in that. That there's a responsibility that she's taken and absolutely ran with the link to season. - You managed to get to a number of the truths about what is amazing about the Olivia Miles experience without having to stretch the metaphor at all. And in ways that I hadn't necessarily thought about, first there's the fact that yes, she has been bestowed this responsibility for running an offense for a team that has title ambitions. Cheryl Reeve went on Megan Rapinoe's podcast and she was talking about how by the end of training camp, she had shifted her mindset from, okay, Olivia and Courtney Williams will share the point guard responsibilities to having a conversation with Courtney and just basically being like, look, eventually Olivia is going to be running the team. Let's just skip to that part right now. And Courtney obviously was thrilled. She got to be a scorer again. There wasn't really any issues on her end, but her ability to step into their responsibility. And the fact that the things that she does are so unique to her style and her, what makes her uniquely talented as well. You have the shot. I was after watching your video, they gave out her jump shot. Like Olivia Miles has the most casual, low-arking. - Just kind of flings it up there, right? - Up there, jumper that we have seen in a while as far as one that is actually accurate. And it speaks so much to what makes her fun because everything she does, it's in her own way. That's what makes it so amazing to watch her. And also what makes her difficult to guard. Like nobody else has the afro and the glasses. And it makes for easy nicknaming, obviously the spectacle as well. And then you also get into the trash talk aspect of it too. But wait, before that, 'cause you had this awesome comparison to like, there's like, I haven't seen the movie yet, but they're in this lab. And they're trying to recreate the web shooter, right? - Oh yes, yeah. - And then Spider-Man just like does it. And that's so, like the way she passes. Like nobody passes like her. Like the behind the back passes, the ability to freeze the game and then just find someone in the middle of the paint is incredible. I've never seen someone do that more consistently. I do believe she's creating more layups for anybody than anybody else in the league. And then the trash talk aspect of it too, where it's like, yeah, Spider-Man's a bit of like, a shit-eating grin type of superhero, you know? It's just like this young sarcastic type of like, I'm not really like, I'm gonna outweigh you and I'm gonna also make you feel like an idiot because I'm gonna let you know that I'm smarter than you. And I don't think Olivia is that mean about it, but I do think that like, you can't separate that from the flare and like what makes her special either, right? Like she said, like, look, like I'm not looking at trash talk, but I am also a young player and you're not gonna punk me because I'm a young player. - Yeah, no, across the board, like you cannot detach the personality from the way that she plays. Like it would, she would simply not be Olivia Miles. Like the passing, everything that comes with her, it would not be the same if she wasn't actively throwing the goggles up and then put the binoculars on and you know, like holding the three fingers up whenever she makes a three and is absolutely loud about it and is like unapologetic about what that is for her. And I love the fact that she's leaned in. Like this is, it's so interesting because I think that like, this isn't new per se. Like we saw Olivia Miles in college. Like we've seen the passes, like we've seen the personality, but like it feels like it's been so empowered in the WMBA and it's like, it's just normally the opposite of what you would think of when like a rookie is going into a professional lead just across all sports. Like you would think that those things kind of get watered down a little bit and maybe they grow back into those things but like generally that's not what happens in terms of like it growing and crescendoing in the way that it has here. So again, it's just, it would be, imagine one game you just turn the game on and it's Olivia Miles and she's like just throwing regular chess passes and like just walking back to the bench. Something would feel seriously wrong. Like it would be like, it would, it would completely take away like the player is fun, but it's also genuinely instrumental to the player that Olivia is. Like that, that personality that she plays with is the only way that she can play and it's incredibly entertaining, but it's also genuinely productive to what the links want to do as a team. - Yeah, there's a, there's a combination of like flash and function, like their style and their substance to what she does, which is why I think the Cheryl revelation chip has worked out so beautifully as well, like she kind of is the perfect mentor for her and I think I have to give her credit too for like not trying to tap down any of that as well. Like she is very much allowed Olivia to be Olivia and I think that's really important. She, if she lost those things, like there are certain players they operate on fun in a way. And if they don't exist in that feedback loop of like being able to engage the crowd, like Caitlin's like this where you could feel it early in this season, she felt a little bit bogged down. She didn't necessarily have the confidence in her shot. She was trying to get into that back into that place of like riling up the crowd, but it, it felt like she was, like she was pulling in. putting out an energy that wasn't necessarily being received back. And now for the most part, we're back in that space with Caitlin, but they have similarities in that way, where they need to be operating in that way. Yes, they are basketball players first, they are winners first. That's like their ultimate goal, but they are also show women. Like it's important to them to play with that flare. And it's something that, so I've been thinking about, I've been thinking about the Olivia Miles, I'm in Canada and I can feel that my Canadian accent is back. Okay, I was just thinking about it. (laughing) Like you can take the girl out of Canada for her back. But I'll drop some y'alls in here for you here soon. Don't worry, I got you. I love it, I love it, I love it. Yes, I've been thinking about Olivia Miles's MVP case a lot. And I think the case against her is that the eight one, the production is like not on the same level as it is with Caitlin or Asia, right? And number two is this sort of unmeasurable aspect of the benefit of being drafted onto the Minnesota links. Like I think it's really, really difficult to measure that. I don't even know what to do with that part of it, to be honest. In a way that almost makes me want to ignore it. (laughing) I don't know what to do, I don't know. I don't know why I'd think how to think about that. I don't have a previous sample size, I don't have Olivia Miles in a different system, I don't have her being in a system that frankly, let's say she's in the system that isn't five out even. Like I think it's funny, like the early season case against her is that like, oh, the game's easy for her. Like she's not guarded the same way. I don't really think that's a good argument. Because I'm not getting with that. I just, I think that she, when you are unguardable and when you are so multifaceted, you simply cannot be guarded in that way. Like she does not get trapped on a lot of pick and rolls. You know why? Because when she does get trapped, she generates 1.4 points per possession, which is ungodly. Like, you don't want to do that, I don't do this. (laughing) That's fine, like that will be fun. Like, you know, like if you put that on a larger sample size, that would be the greatest pick and roll performance in the history of sports WNBA or NBA. So obviously teams aren't going to trap her. She has this way of freezing the game. Like when I used to cover the NBA, Ron Adams used to talk about this with Dremont Green. Like the players who can see the pictures of the game better than anybody else can manipulate it. That isn't anybody else. The ability and a split second to take a snapshot of what's happening and then just adjust. So Olivia Miles, when she reads that a trap is coming, she reads us, like she reads us very quickly, whether it's rejecting the pick, whether it's having the pick go the other side. She's very good, I think, at commanding her teammates, which is really impressive for Oroki as well. Or she'll ask somebody else to come up. She'll have a Caleb McBride come up. And yes, she has fantastic teammates. Frankly, I think everybody in the MVP race who isn't Brianna Stewart has fantastic teammates. Like I feel like the teammates are always used again. And I hate that conversation because it's like, you're just diminishing somebody else to make the case for who you like. When we're talking about the teammates aspect of it. So I always just get a little bit frustrated with that, like Asia, Caitlin, Olivia, all have like Hall of Fame level teammates by their side. All have teammates that you could look at and be like these are MVP type teammates. It's their healthy for the course of season. Anyway, I digress. Like Olivia can take a snapshot of the game and just decide, okay, well, this is what's necessary. Yeah. I mean, it's a spidey sense. Like that's what I created it to in the video. And like, it's not only like one, I think her, the confidence in her three point shot completely changed the game. Because like the whole idea was like when she first was kind of rolling, it was like, okay, we'll make her shoot. And then they did. And then she made it. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, that's kind of it. You know what? Her ability to read the defense, but also manipulate the defense, but also make decisions at the last possible second where it's like you already think that she's decided to do something else, but the entire time she knows she's doing the other option, like it's remarkable. And you know, in terms of the MVP case as a whole, like it is to me, I always go back to stat standings and storylines. It's kind of like three lanes that I judge. MVP or national play over a year type of things. And the stats don't fully, you know, back it up to your point in the sense of like Caitlyn is, you know, top three in points and assists. And Asia is just dominant in her scoring and she's leading them blocks. Like you have like those like marquee, like just easy to point out, like stat leader stats to point out. But when you get into the standings, the links have obviously just, you know, been at the top of the lead. I mean, it's been the links and everybody else for the course of this season. And the storyline aspect of a rookie going in doing this, again, in a draft class that was, this isn't Caitlyn or Paige coming in and doing this. That was like, this is a superstar already. That's not what was happening here. And I do think that like when you factor in the preseason expectations, like, this is not supposed to be happening. And like, I guess I understand to a degree, like, oh, the situation in the teammates and, you know, the production surrounding her. But like, we weren't saying that preseason. You know what I mean? We were, we were saying that preseason 7-3-8 seed, yeah. Exactly. Like, it's like, just hold on until she gets back. Like, it was, that was literally the only requirement. Like, and, and so like, I struggled to get behind that argument in the sense of like trying to reject the Olivia Miles case because it's like a complete opposite of where we anticipated them being when fee returned and she hasn't slowed down really much at all since fee has come back. So I understand that this is a very good team. This is a team that has a lot of talent on it. But like, in terms of making the case, you know, whether she's like leading the MVP race to the different conversation, but like making the case, I don't think it's difficult at all to make it. And I don't really subscribe to the idea, like using the teammates to bring that case down, given what the expectations were preseason. Yeah, we could be wrong, you know, about where those expectations, you know, we were wrong about that. But ultimately, those were the expectations. And so trying to flip that into like, oh, well, this is a stacked team. I'm just not going to get behind that, given what the dialogue was preseason. I get that, I get that. That's a really good point. I forgot, like I almost forgot how we were talking about Minnesota as well, right? Yeah, because we were so wrong. We were so incredibly wrong. We were deeply wrong. I think that is, if Olivia wins it. I think that what it would remind me the most of was, is like Steph Curry's first MVP. Like Olivia is ninth in scoring seventh in assists. And she's number three and plus minus behind only her teammates. But when you look at her actual on-off numbers, the impact of when she's on the floor versus off the floor is genuinely insane. Like it is one of the best in league. Asia is better. Asia is obviously incredible. But I think that it's very similar. Like when Steph won, he was eighth in scoring and seventh in assists. And ultimately, the next year he wins unanimously and he's leading the league in scoring. And it made me sick. Like, okay, if Olivia doesn't win it this year, the only thing that's standing between her and an MVP award is scaling up. And scaling up is something I think is going to be very easy to do, just given how unguardable she has been. But she's 17th in the league in usage when Asia and Caitlin are number one and number two, respectively. So how might be the best miles argument I've heard? Is the usage honestly? Like it's like, that might be the best aspect to make the miles argument awful. That's crazy. It's insane. I've never, for someone to have that level of impact and also be able to be off the ball as much as she is and then to be as effective as she is when she's on the ball. Like she's, she's only a few free throws away from having a 50, 40, 90 season. Her efficiency is just fantastic. And I was thinking about this during the Valkyrie scheme. She goes like eight for 10. What was it eight for 10 with 20 points? Yeah, it was just stupidly good against this defense. Things people don't do against the Valkyrie's defense. She's had like three or four bad games this season, completely, right? Like people were like, "Oh, why don't you talk about Miles Flauch?" She just doesn't have a lot. Yeah. Like she just doesn't have a lot. Like it's different than talking about Caitlin, who the highs are very high and the lows are very low. So you kind of have to talk about both of them. With Olivia, it's just been so consistent. And I think it's because she can kind of throughout the course of a game, song with everybody. And she doesn't solve the first game. She'll solve you the second game. So she does this against this Valkyrie's defense. And it made me very excited about what's going to happen to playoffs. Because like, I'm going to cite Dremond again. He used to talk about there are 82 game players and there are 16 game players. Meaning there are regular season players and there are playoff players. So Olivia's production, her numbers, might not boat itself well for the MVP award, which is a regular season award. But boy, am I excited to see how she dissect defenses in the postseason. And I think the postseason, when it really becomes about the chess match and solving things, that's when it was really going to be time for Olivia and boss to shine. And last that I want to point out on Olivia is she's a better half court player than she is a transition player. Which is insane. Which feels insane. That's it. That's absolutely. Yeah, it's crazy. Because think about the playoff aspect of it. I think there's a fair assumption and worry, if you will, about like rookies and during their first post season, right? and like it's an interesting aspect and like when you have coaches that are able to now scheme against these players, a little bit mild is gonna be scheming against another team along with this ridiculous Minnesota coaching staff I might add, so like her mind and her ability to your point to learn on the fly, and like if it's not in the same game, like you're not gonna do the same thing twice to her, like it's been remarkable just to like actively see that calculations like happen in real time, like you can literally see it sometimes in a possession to possession, where if she like turns the ball over in one way, you're probably not gonna see her turn the ball over the same way for the rest of that game, like it's truly remarkable just like seeing something happen and immediately pivoting, learning, adjusting, whatever that looks like to not allow that same thing to happen again, like it's insane, like there is, again the three point shot was like the one thing, not that she was like a terrible three point shooter by the time that she left college, right? Her last two seasons, she was able to grow that percentage and grow the volume, but like it certainly wasn't a strength, you know, like going into the W, like it wasn't something that it was like, she is a three point shooter. Again, like the first question everyone asked was like, well, make her shoot, that what happens? It doesn't matter what I make her go left. It doesn't have the answer, yeah, right? Which still is better than making her go right, but it's not like she's better than most players that go to the right hand dominant, go into their left. Yeah, it really is just like one of these players where it's like, it's amazing how fast she's turned into, like you could only slow her down. You're not gonna stop her and being one of those players. 'Cause like that's a high mark to reach. You know, like there's very few players that like truly reach that mark. Like Aja Wilson is one of those players, Stewie is one of those players to be like, you're not going to just like completely shut them down. Like they're going to get theirs at some point. Yeah. And for miles, it might not always be, it might be more play make than, you know, than scoring at times, but like, she's gonna get hers. Yeah. And she's gonna help others get theirs. And it's amazing that she's already become that type of player where you like, there is just no like, this is the game plan for this player. There is not one that exists to like fully stop what Olivia Laos can do on the basketball court. It's ridiculous. No, you can't. You can't. And it reminds, like I think a lot about Helio Centrism. And I feel like what Miles is doing is like kind of the platonic idea of Helio Centrism, which is this idea of like, the game in the offense revolving around one star who can simultaneously score and make plays. And this has become very popular in the NBA. And it has its flaws because it creates offences that are too dependent on the, on that one player. And it can kind of make the offense predictable. I think what Olivia does is she takes all the best aspects of Helio Centrism. And I think one of the best things about Helio Centrism is it reminds you that in offense, in basketball, like, look, the defense is just trying, like, the defense is only as good as the options that the offense gives you. And if you have a player that gives you no options on what to do defensively, you're screwed. - Yeah. - And, and like, not only Miles, but the links as a whole, like, I find it hard to recall a WWE NBA team that has options in the way that this links team does. Like, no matter like really where they're at offensively, like, like watching a Valkyrie's game, it was like, the Valkyrie's were doing fine. Like, they were not playing bad defense. It just didn't matter because there was always another pass to make and the links were always able to make. Like, it was, it was remarkable. Like, where, like, that game in particular, like, obviously, like, it's not hard exactly to, like, be like, hey, the links are really good. You know what, that's not exactly the hard to figure out. But like, that game in particular, like, just, it felt inevitable that the links were going to find production offensively in that game because of the way they were able to move the ball and the way that they're spaced out and the fit of these players around each other. Like, it just, I don't know where to poke a hole in this links team as a whole and so much of that has to do with what Olivia Miles has been able to bring as their point guard and like, the head of the snake people are offensively. It's, I mean, again, it's just, I don't, I don't know where the solution is if you are trying to stop this team. - It was really interesting to watch the Valkyrie's defense and the way that Minnesota was made a little bit uncomfortable by it, especially in that first half, shot clock violations, Gabby Williams gets a steal on Miles, makes her uncomfortable with the ball in her hands in a way that you don't usually see with Olivia. And I think that this is a Minnesota offense. It's like kind of used to searching for the perfect shot. And you can't really get the perfect shot against a Valkyrie's. So I think, you know, as a game progress, they realize like, we have to take the good shot. Like, Dorka, if you're cutting and you kind of have a shot in the paint. - Goodness, I know exactly what you're talking about. (laughing) Yes, please just lay the ball up. - Just lay the ball up. It's okay, it's all good. Like, it's a good shot. You're not gonna always get perfect offense against a Valkyrie's. But the Lings offense is good enough that we're still gonna get good offense. What did you make? 'Cause I wondered if like, this is not giving enough credit to K-Mac for being a stone cold killer. 'Cause like, I want sure to do the night night in the building that Steph Curry built. And I was like, oh man, they're kind of taking on Olivia's identity a little bit. - Yeah, I think you're behind that. I think you're behind that. Yeah, I think K-Mac in particular has been a player that she had a shot away from that. But like, I mean, how could you not? Like, I mean, how could you not at least get some degree of what Olivia Miles is as a player, especially in that environment too. Like, in ball hall, like, and you're able to go in there and win again against a team that still has not beat you yet, like, and it's kind of like, this is your king? Like, this is who's number two? Like, absolutely, yes, night night. Like, you know, like, I feel like it's hard not to do that. And like, the links have every right to act like that. You know, like, so it's kind of the perfect combination of like, who I think Olivia Miles is as an individual. I think it's, I think you have like, not maybe not to like, the flashingness and like, on the court, like, you see like, in the consistency of it of Olivia Miles where it's like every game, like, she's probably gonna stun on you at least once. You know, like, yeah. I don't know if every player on the links is like, is like that, but like, it's not cool. It really is exactly quiet. It's not like, like, Caleb and Brian isn't quiet either. Like, like, Fee has grown into, I think, having a little bit more of that edge, like in the past, like, three years or so, right? Like, I think that, like, Miles, I think is like, the, the most fiery of that, but I don't think that this is like a new thing in that manner, like having that personality. And again, when you're the best and it's clear, like, absolutely, you know, like, like, having that edge, I feel like it's the best thing you can do to maintain what you are right now at the top of the league. So I think it's partially Olivia Miles might maybe, I think the Nell Strong more attention to like the team as a whole that might have that edge, but yeah, I think it's, I think it's been there more, more than anything. Yeah, you know what? I don't know if there's anything more Olivia Miles coated than doing the electric slide after a win. Yeah, I think you're right, yeah. I do appreciate the alchemy, though, between like Olivia Miles and Defesa Collier, who I think approached the game very differently. Like Olivia Miles, she like charms and controls you in a way. Like she's dancing on the court. She's talking trash and then, like, B is like, she's just terrifyingly all business. Like she's gotten through the defense, like a hot knife through ice. And it's just like, what are you to do? What do you do with that, like, pick and roll combination? Lasting on the, this is what you said kind of made me think about the protests that were happening, happening outside the game. There was like an anti-trans protest outside of the links Valkyrie's game. And it was like, I think it was the first one that wasn't at a fever game. And it struck me as such in interesting venue to try to do that. Like you were talking about the Bay Area. You were talking about Minnesota taking on the Valkyrie's Cheryl Reeve and Natalie Nakassi are both asked about it. They are both like 10 toes down about what like the WNBA is all about. And I like, you have this like sort of like culture war where I feel like that what's going on, it was like kind of a perfect metaphor. Like what's going on outside is trying to penetrate into what's going on inside. When I think about that game in particular, I am so happy I am on the inside. Like thank goodness, right? Well, like you are 10 people protesting outside. That's a rena and what is going on inside? I mean, goodness gracious. Like there's no way you stood there and felt cool. Like there's no way you're like, oh yeah. Like I chose the right thing to do this evening. Yeah, like everyone's just like walking by and going like, oh you're right. Like I mean, like, all right, go Valkyrie's again. It's like I mean like, like what? Like it's just, yeah, I'm glad to be inside. It's like this video I saw once of like, there's like these two people like making content out like beside a pride parade. And they're like, they're like ripping a pride flag and like throwing in the garbage and like literally nobody is watching them at all. Like and they're like, trust me. People are like, a lot of people. It's going to be embarrassing, so stupid. The shame has to say in this some point, surely. Like, really? Yeah, oh my gosh, okay. Let's take a little break and then we'll switch gears. All right, we are back and Tyler, I bullied you into watching the Yukon three-part documentary. - You made it. - You made it. Okay, you didn't bully me. - I bullied you in the way that Gino bullies his father. - You coached me to greatness this morning. - Yeah, are you ultimately grateful that I asked you to watch it in this interview? - Yes, thank you. What's I finished the documentary and I got to the end of my Yukon documentary career, I knew now everything was for the best, you know? Everything, everything was for the best. So yeah, what an interesting look into everything that is Gina Horiama. - Yeah, it felt like a Gina Horiama documentary, which I am not against, like you can-- - I was thoroughly sports entertained. I was entertained. Maybe not like the best documentary, like there's like other parts of it, like I wish we could have got more of the studio and what not, but like in terms of like, Geno, the human being, I was thoroughly entertained. I truly was. - Geno is, I think, just one of these rich characters that you can explore through so many different lenses, which is what makes him such a fascinating vehicle for a documentary like this. But the thing that I think is caused the most discourse is the final episode, where it really dives into the relationship between Paige Becker and Gina Horiama in that final season, where he pushes her to a point where he says, look, I took a risk and I said she's either gonna quit or she's going to change. And he had felt like losing did not hurt her enough. So in his words, I tried to hurt her like losing her. And it turns out that after this film session, after their lost to Tennessee, which you know that Geno takes personally, it lost to Tennessee, he singled her out in this film session. And basically like broke her down to pieces. Like he questioned her character, he questioned her willingness to be there for her teammates, which is a place where if you wanna hurt Paige, that's where you hit her. Sarah Strong talks about this, like she's still disturbed by it. She was like that, like she was like, the way that she responded in the documentary sounded like she was still kind of disturbed by what went down there. And then you find out that they don't talk for a long time after that. Like they share no communication. It is Geno and Paige both going into these practices, but they are not talking to each other. And I thought it was really interesting because I think the way that people are reacting to it, I think it gets at this fault line between how the sausage is made and how people want the sausage to be made, especially in 2026. And you are seeing alternative ways to win, right? Like you see what Corey closed it in UCLA. However, at the same time, if you watch some of the documentaries about UCLA, if you watch that UCLA documentary, you see some of the ways that she spoke to Lauren Bette and that team when they had disappointing performances. It's not all that different from what Geno is describing, right? And you actually get to be in those film sessions in that documentary, which I thought was really interesting. So it's like this interesting thing of how bad is Geno in comparison to other coaches. Is this just part of what is required to win at this level? Like I think one thing that people should always keep in mind is that none of these people are like you or I. Like I don't care how competitive you are. I don't care how much you want. I want to be good at my job. You want to be good at your job. We both care a lot about what we do. There are different levels. There are different levels when you're a Div 3, Div 1. There are different levels when you're a WNBA. Steph White brought this up when like the moment happened with free January and Caitlin Clark. She wasn't specifically referencing that. But there was just like a sort of like look like you guys, you guys have no idea what it's like to actually be in these competitive environments on this level. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of me on this phone. And I don't think it's a type of thing where like there's one right way to look at it. But I think it's an interesting prism through which you can talk a lot about what matters and what wins. And there are certainly moments that I look back at now when I reflect on that Eucluncies and a little bit differently. But I think ultimately this is something that Paige Becker said in an interview. I believe this interview was, I believe it was with Yahoo. If I'm wrong, I will correct myself in the show notes. But she basically said like this is from the director in an interview where he asked her, why did you tell us all of this? And she said, I don't want the kids who are looking out to me to think it's easy to just go out there and win a championship and hoist a trophy and have confetti fall on you. This is incredibly hard. And I think Geno too, he's at this age and his career. I think like part of the reason he was so open about this, I think he knows it. People aren't gonna react well. He's also passed a point of, he's such an interesting character because he leans into this idea that he understands he's not gonna be likable, but he does care about it. - Cares a lot. - At the same time. So yeah, it's interesting. And I think that ultimately though like part of the reason they wanted to make this documentary is they just wanted us to know, you know. - Yeah, it's such an interesting thing because it's so funny to me how obvious it is why Dinaturasi is his favorite. - Yeah. - Because everyone else in this documentary, I mean, from beginning to end of like the era is covered, everyone essentially for lack of, you know, just for paraphrasing. It's, I didn't know why Geno was the way he was, but then when we won, I got it. Dinaturasi got it from day one, before we're getting there. During recruitment. Like there's clips of her like as like a high schooler being like, "I'm ready to go play right now." And it's such an interesting look at Geno and because you have the obvious connection with DT, you know, from immigrant families. And then like just the background's like, "Where are those families come from?" I mean, there's so much of like, both working class, both with the parents that had to sell 100% so much. - It's so much, I think, you know, I can attest to this, like both in environments where I think that sensitivity is not the first thing that is considered. I think people like feelings are not the first thing that is considered. And they're, you know, there are pros to that. There are cons to that, but it is what it is. - Yeah. - And in that way. - He's like, I'm an Italian Catholic. I have to be never. - Well, well, shout out to my family and Philly. Like, you know what I mean, I feel you. You know, like, I get you, like, it's this thing where, I think that with the page point in particular, the thing that rocked me honest more than anything. And as I was going into this documentary, I think I was looking forward to most, was the mic that moment of the hook, when after page wins. And Geno says, I love you to page. And page says, I hate you. And it felt like both of them sang the thing, the other side of the thing that they couldn't have said, probably, because I think that Geno had been saying, you know, he'd been delivering the hate to page and delivering that to her doorstep. On the flip side, page, like they show with the moment of her, like, slapping Geno on the ass, and stuff like that, like, mid game. And it's like, this love that like, has never publicly been shown to Geno. Like, it was like, Newsy Geno's face in the clip, he's like, what the hell just happened? And they did the flip. And I think it was like this moment of like true honesty between the two where it's like, page has like, like, there was like real like, like, I don't like you. You know, like, and a lot of times over the course of this journey, I don't like you. And Geno could never really show the love that he wanted to to page. I feel like because he felt like he had to be hard on her to go and get the results that they did end up getting in that final year. And it all just kind of comes back to like, I almost wondered in my eyes, like, how Diana Terossi changed Geno Aureama because there finally was a player that understood him. And like, from that point on, could you make another player? Like, could you coach them into that? And I don't think that's something that, like, I think it's something that DT and Geno were just, it's their background. It's what they were built with, right? It's the foundation of who they are as competitors. That's why they're so alike in so many ways. And that hug just, it kind of rocked me because I was like, okay, what did they say? And it's that. And it's quick and it kind of passes by. But they both, it felt like true honesty in that moment where I think there was an understanding of where both sides came from within it, you know? But it's so interesting to me because I think to your point about the other coaches around the country, I don't think that this is like incredibly different. Now, Geno might be the most public about it, you know? And like he certainly has never hidden his emotions by any means. But like, for example, in my years covering college basketball, like Vic Schaefer's been a coach I've covered a lot. And Vic Schaefer is a hardass, like in a whole lot of ways, you know? And like we've, I've heard about the practices where it is not, it is tough in those practices. And yet the relationship I saw between him and Roy Harman over the course of her college career was closer than any I got to cover up close in person in that way, like at conference tournament. So like, I think there could just be multiple truths to like what these moments can be as a college coach, where there's going to be times where like, these players are going to hate you, you know what I mean? Like that's part of it I feel like. And if they always love you, you're not doing your job well. I completely agree. And so like it's an odd balance. And like obviously like there's just more, like you have more focus on mental health now compared to like the 80s when Geno was first getting rolled and stuff like that and like there is adjustments and not to say about these coaches are perfect by any means, but it is just I think built into the DNA of being a college basketball coach that like these moments of just like real deal pure negativity are kind of part of the job. And ultimately kind of have to be in my eyes. Yeah. I'm really I'm stuck on the point that you made about Diana because Diana and Gino I think are one completely different side of the spectrum of what basketball means to them. Then what it means to pagebeckers. So would Gino and Diana you know talks about this in the documentary the Torah there's so many great companion pieces to this I would say the Tarasi documentary is a great companion piece to this and then also this interview that pagebeckers does with her sports psychologist it's on YouTube and it's called I think unconditionally unaffected where again I think it's like in part and parcel with like her just wanting people to know she is vulnerable in a way that I've barely seen an athlete be vulnerable and I think she want she just she's really I think she you're a fan of her she wants you to know this is not a cakewalk like this this will this will push you to the point where you wonder if you were capable of this you know um but I think Diana and Gino they were outsiders in American society yeah and Gino was an outsider in women's basketball and I think Gino was kind of addicted to being an outsider like I think I think you attract yourself to dynamics that you're trying to resolve like I wonder if there's a level at which Gino ended up coaching women's basketball because he felt like such an outsider a basketball was a way that he proved that he belonged yeah and I think the really like the basketball's role in these like Italian immigrant communities from that time I think it's like a very interesting thing to just be explored and I like that could be in its own documentary as well like you know like press marriage Pete marriage is dead and the way that he pushed him and you know like it really was like to be good at basketball was a form of acceptance in the mainstream society for for for a lot of immigrants at the time um and then for page page page talks about that this in the interview that I referenced um for page basketball was a safe space away from like a kind of like a family unit that was a little bit um where she wasn't necessarily I don't want to put words in her mouth so you can want to interview but where maybe she wasn't necessarily getting what what she needed out of it um and it became a form of like you know basketball is a form of family for her like her teammates are her family she cares about the team more than she cares about anything else those are just two very very very different entry points yeah and I think it culminated in the Tennessee loss because Diana would not lose to Tennessee like and she would not be okay with the way that those two talked about Tennessee I think encompasses exactly the point that you're making and look Tennessee in fairness very different school like I think it's I think for page it's more myself here in the U.S. South Carolina Iowa right like those of the three schools that she was probably thinking about the most with Gina would never really stop being Tennessee yeah and the thing is like page she's just not like that mm-hmm and it's so funny actually when you think about it because thinking about that Tennessee game there's probably the high water mark if Kim called Will's tenure in Tennessee to actually win a game against Japan and ironically it probably but like fueled there are dribbles title run yeah like yeah that's so funny like and I said I'm seeing fans how they feel right now so like you know what I mean like yeah don't take the complicated hard ass coach that win yeah no seriously like it's the complicated hard ass coach that loses that stuff yeah no it's it's it's it's it really is interesting to me like and I really think that the Tennessee aspect of it all but I think could really tell the story because when you hear about Geno talk about Pat you hear DT talk about Tennessee just as a whole and and again it is different because Tennessee she's at a different level than with you know now than what they were then but I think you get like a little bit of that like when when page talks about talking about it kind of being like the the new dynasty and whatnot and in the in the documentary but like even then it's still different just in terms of like Geno literally says like yeah Diana would probably tell you to your face she's gonna stab you in the throat and choke you out and I was like you know I mean yeah you know and like that's just like that's they're just so wired together and I again I think that there's a little bit of like basketball mortality that was faced in Paige's final season both you know Paige obviously being her final season and and not wanting to be you know the superstar Husky that didn't win you know because like that's just has been the standard like not only winning but winning a lot you know has been the standard but you also I think have Geno in that where I don't know if if how confident Geno was where it's like I'm gonna be back you know and I'm going to have like this this player like this type of player again in this way to go in and and and do that and so I think you have a coach and Geno who hadn't won in a while and for especially for you can't stand and you know and the luck that's been had yeah you know like this it's it's like I think because he talked about like the the numbness to a degree of like what winning became during like the studio where like it was just you know 111 games straight you know and I think that that lost the Mississippi state and then the years that followed with the injury luck and just how they could not feel the team let alone you know I drew like national championship team just due to injury I think it got to a point where it was a need and it was something where it was like I'm willing to do anything to go and get this and what it and the becoming was that risk that he took in that film study that day and ultimately I guess it worked out you know they're they go and win it right and but it is just very different in like I just I cannot get out of like the D.T. aspects of this and how it compares because D.T. was just naturally like that so it was easy like the genuine ever had to challenge her in that way and even like you know like you you think like Shay Rauf for example like and and Subaru like these were players that were like already kind of just came in talking cash to be honest in a whole lot of ways like they were ready to go you know well did I say that was the demise of that for of that stack team first year before the 100% you know and and so like it's just it's different it's a different era it was an era that at that point people were questioning if Geno could win in like I mean like it had had been seen yet so like it just it was a really interesting like chemistry combination of what ended up becoming you know a national championship team so like mission succeeded you know like at at the end of the day but the way that they got there and you know the the inner workings of that relationship between Geno and Paige versus Geno and Diana is just incredibly interesting to me like that's that's something I'm really like that I haven't been able to shake off since the last episode yeah it's so interesting and he would compare Paige to Geno as or Paige to Diana yeah Freud and slip my geno and it's interesting like there are moments there are seminal moments in Paige's career where I think that you know leaving aggression on the table her her most obvious of that being the final four in 2024 against Iowa and Katelyn Clark and who did she have put her ultimate foil like the player for whom aggression and confidence and fearlessness has never been a problem in Katelyn Clark and Katelyn Clark who it was clear that Katelyn Clark as somebody was kind of was on her mind coming back from her injuries as well she talked about this with Suburgian reference Katelyn Clark in particular but it was I think tough for her to be we having an injury in this moment where you know this this person who has you know historically she'd been her friend in high school and then you know as freshmen they come into the league at the same time and Paige wins freshmen of the year and Paige and Yukon be Iowa and then Paige is hurt and then the entire universe of women's basketball flips and Katelyn Clark is at the center of it and the meantime Paige is like re-happening or trying to get you know like that is that is I think a really really tough thing to to go through right and I think that whole that impacted her in a way where I think that I don't know if this is something that she always had but you know she talks she talks a lot about running her own race some learning to run her own race after that but I think public perception was actually her biggest enemy it wasn't genome it was what people were saying about her she talks about like you know going to check social media after these games good or bad Derek Derek Derek say interview interview watching I'm like oh my god she's talking about a friend of the show your colleague Shawnee who was like the biggest team troll all the time I'm like oh my god I'm like you made her great every tweet that pulled up I was like oh my god is it hurt like I'm like looking like through like the blur around like is that like do I recognize this to me like do I like I it was it was like I was like I had a moment I was like oh my god I kind of like often I was like oh my god like it's just no way this is actually happening right now as I'm watching documentary but like yeah you know like but and and I know it's interesting because like you have the public aspect and I think that I think kind of what in my eyes made her just like you know so much is that I think Gina brought that public aspect in the house and by the media exactly and like it's the same critiques and it's the aggressiveness like I'm not surprised that Gina was saying the same stuff that a lot of people were saying outside like I don't like it was the critiques of page beckers were never about like the skill it was always about the aggressiveness like that was and and showing up like in those you know clutch time big time moments like that that had always been the discussion around paid. on top of and like her injuries. I think we're the kind of two main lanes of discourse generally speaking over her college career. And I think Geno challenged her on that. And it's like you add in what is already just a massive amount of noise that's happening on social media. And at least around your teammates and everything, you can kind of block that out to a certain degree. Geno brings that to the film study. And brings those same talking points generally speaking. Like I'm not surprised at it absolutely. Like the impact that I do on page. I mean, also I think about now knowing that they weren't really in conversation, but then spending like these interviews in the first quarter and half time being like, yeah, no, things are going great. I just need page to shoot more. Like I feel like he and honestly became instead of communicating with page Vya, the media, knowing that that page would probably see the things that he was saying. And that he was putting fuel on the fire of the thing that was burning her. - Yeah, it's incredible. Like if nothing else, like it's his own way of doing it and everything, but Geno knew how to operate with his players, largely speak. Like whether it be like the trip to Italy and they're playing outside of the heat and like that offense takes us to a national championship. Like and he was okay. It's so interesting how okay he was being the villain to everybody. He was okay being it for this team. He was okay being it for the public. He was like, and he admits it too. Like there is this degree of like acceptance that he wanted and he wanted to be the best because like it's undeniable that you are accepted if you are the best, right? So like, but there is the both sides of that where I think he always craved that acceptance, generally speaking, but he also was very much okay with like, I will be the asshole here, especially if it means we win the national championship. - Well, there's also a level of self-acceptance that I think he's gone to. His point in his life too, where it's like, I don't think he's no, he can't run away from the part of himself that needs to win. He can't run away from the part of himself that makes an enemy out of Pat Summit and now it makes an enemy out of Don Staley. Like he doesn't know how to operate in any other way. He doesn't know how to have like somebody's face on his like bulletin board. Like I just think that's always who he's going to be. And look for us as sports fans. It makes for great rivalries. Like that women's basketballs needed that foil with Pat versus Gino, right? Like I think that was necessary in that moment. And then with someone like Paige, it's like, I don't know, like I think it's interesting. Like by the time that they actually got to the final four, it was like the evolution was complete. Like she had become the player that he always wanted her to be. And I think there's been repair in that relationship. I think that she has a lot of gratitude for what ultimately happened. And she just couldn't be shaken by then. Like I won't. - Yeah. - We don't have to fester on the 40 point game that she dropped on Oklahoma. More than any other Yukon player in a game. More than Diana Torasi in a game. And then by the time the final four rolled around, it was like a coronation. It was like we're just bearing witness to the thing that they had spent the season building. And more than even preparing for March, I think it prepared her for the WNBA. And you know, this Dallas team where she has to put the team on her back. And she has like had moments earlier in the season where she had completely internalized that. And I think it's still leading the league in fourth quarter scoring. But it was doing that in a way that was just clutch win, after clutch win, after clutch win. And then she kind of comes off of that a little bit. And but you also have this game like yesterday against the fever. And I think it's so interesting. Like if what happened with Caitlyn and her with the intentional foul and Caitlyn getting upset about it happened to Diana Torasi. Diana Torasi would have spent half the entire half time seething and then would have come out completely guns blazing. And I think frankly, I think Paige is at this point where that's not who she is and to try to lean into that would be performative, especially in a game in which the wings were already destroying them. And in a game in which it was clear that the fever's game plan was to not let Paige get off. Much in the same way as the wings game plan was not to let Caitlyn get off. Like that game was not really about Caitlyn in page, but I think it was about in a sense like, Paige isn't going to like, like in a way that I think like if it was Olivia versus Caitlyn even. Like I think those two would have gotten into it. The first matchup that they had, like with Paige and Caitlyn, they were trying to go shot of her shot a little bit. I think in this game, I think, you know, Paige hits her with the calm down, which is fucking hilarious. - A hilarious by the way. - Watching the whole way. - Incredible content. Like, I mean, go on. - I'm going to break the fever down, like be a Plymouth game, be a jet ship. I think that's how Paige wants to win. - Yeah, and like, and that's okay. Like, I mean, like ultimately like that, like that's, there's not necessarily anything wrong about that. It's just not Gina's way. - No. - You know, it's just, it's just not the way that he, you know, he had wanted to do it. - Yeah. - And, and in that game, like, there was other ways to win. - Yeah. - And like her other teams were there to, you know, her other teammates were there. - Yeah. - And so like, it's not like, as someone who has certainly had, like my, my fair share, especially when she was talking about like the, you know, the, the aggressiveness of Paige and, you know, versus her being maybe too passive at times and whatnot, like, I absolutely think that this is a better team whenever she is aggressive. Like, I mean, look at July. - Oh, absolutely. - Compared to, you know, like, like, I want Paige Becker's to shoot the ball, to have the ball on her hands, the playmaker, I want her to be the end all be all as much as humanly possible. Like that, like that, she's that damn good. Like I, she's, she's remarkable. - Yeah. - And so like, there is always, I think going, for me, at least individually, it's always going to be a bit of frustration, like when that doesn't happen, because like, I know how good you are. - Yeah. - Like, you know, like, just, like, just going, just going to be that good, you know? But like, that's not who Paige is. And like, on nights, like, against, how it was against a fever, like, you don't have to be that, you know, there's times where they might lose games because she's not being that. But last, you know, last night with that fever game, it was not a game where she had to go on be that. And, and that was to the benefit of the wings. As opposed, like, having, you know, just, in generally speaking, a star about, like, tries to force their wings to the game, you know, and, and, and ruining the flow of her other teammates and whatnot, like that, that's not something that happens for Dallas, because Paige isn't that type of player. - Yeah. - And, you know, there's, there's pros and cons to that. It's just not the way that Gino generally operates. - Yeah, it's, it's so funny having this drop at a very tense moment in the UConn extended universe as well, which I think, I think, Jose Fernandez is like a member of as well. - At this point, at this point. Yeah, he had, he had a, he had a spin-off show at this point. - He didn't really is, like, this is a spin-off. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But, um, I wonder if photo would have been received differently, but let's, I mean, let's talk about Jose a little bit here, and AZ as well. So, AZ is, unfortunately, out for the rest of the season. She's undergoing an arthroscopic right knee procedure. She is going to miss a duration of the regular season, however long the wings are in the playoffs. This sucks for AZ, who has had, - Yes. - After a two-year stint of being mostly injury-free, this is the same knee where she tears her ACL and MCL in 2019. The same knee that she tears it again in 2023. And she also had the right knee sprain in, in 2024 as well. It just sucks. Like, thinking about all the extra work that she's done and the ways that our bodies betray us, it's brutal. And, you know, prior to the injury, she'd been playing basketball with very few breaks for nine straight months. And when she was healthy, she was playing a ton of minutes. She also defended more possessions per game as a primary defender than anyone in the league, not named Sonya Citron. She was also Dallas's best rotational wing defender as well. Like, frankly, if she was healthy, she would have been in all defense conversations, for sure. And it has sort of created this conversation around Jose Fernandez. But like, you know, I think the Dallas fans had an issue with the way that AZ was being used at the start of the season anyways coming off the bench. And frankly, I think that, look, I, for AZ, it's unfortunate because I think for the rest of her career, she's gonna be compared to Olivia Milo's and maybe I'll often just being taken with the number one pick. And I think that a lot of that does sort of end up hiding what is great about AZ as a player. And the potential that she was starting to tap into, like, I think the thing you have to remember about AZ is that like, before all the injuries hit, she was a number one ranked player in the nation. Like, she was the one that was supposed to be next. And there's still so much on tap talent there. And in this Dallas team, like, you were starting to see the things that make her great outside of the three-point shot. But then there was also the sense that she was being overtaxed and underutilized as well because like she was like, I was looking at this up yesterday. She was 50 first in the WNBA in spot-up three's attempted. This is the second best pure shooter that we have ever seen playing alongside a playmaker and Paige Becker's and another one in Jess Shep, both of whom put pressure on the mid-range and the rim. There were so many times that AZ was open this season where it was like, guys, what are you doing? - There's that's a excuse me. Like that, I mean, it's just, it's barely an excuse me. Yeah, I mean, it sucks. Like, it just does. 'Cause like, now, like, I think that we were, I think once we got past the draft, like, 'cause like, you know, the injury concerns like past stuff, I mean, that's like, you know, and like, valid piece of a discourse you know, in terms of like who you're choosing to draft, right? - Absolutely. - And I would be wild to not consider it. - Yeah, 100%. And so, but I felt like we had largely kind of moved past it, you know, generally speaking. And so it sucks. Yeah. The other thing too is just want to add on the injuries stuff. Yeah. Olivia also had an ACL tear, page of an ACL tear, Juju was an ACL tear. Mm-hmm. Yes. They're injured. Like, yes. Easy has particularly been hit with like these injuries. ACL tears, women's basketball are just a problem. It's the thing. And it blows, but it's a thing, you know. So like, it's, it's a, I hate for like, you know, we're kind of talking about the outside noise and everything on the page. So I hate it for easy because like, you have the Olivia Miles comparison. Like, I, you have now your, your injury history is now going to be a topic I think going for, I mean, like, I don't really see how you shake this with it being the same knee. You know, like, it's going to be a thing that sticks around, you know, in a perfect world, like with this, like the type of procedure that this is, I'm, you know, I just hope that it gets cleaned up and like we're kind of done with, you know, the knee that you're in a perfect world, obviously. Yeah. Definitely open that. Yeah. It's like that this is happening again because easy, it's, I still think she was like a completely valid number one pick. I still think that like if Olivia Miles was drafted a Dallas, this would be a very different Olivia mile season, like just due to the situation and what the role would be and whatnot. And I, I think that also with AZ to your point, like, it is such an odd balance of like what we're seeing, what we were seeing her being asked to defensively was insane, like it was, there was a lot to be asked of her. There was no room protection, there is, there's, you don't have like dominant perimeter defenders around her while you are also not utilizing her best asset, which is her three point, and she was able to like go and make her shake, especially early on this season with the mid-range and show more of that and, and, you know, and just more variety than I anticipated her having in her offensive bag just like at the beginning of her W and B career. I thought it was going to kind of be, hey, spot up three, like, let's, can you be the best three in D player in the league, you know, it was kind of like my initial like that, that's kind of the mark here and, and like, let's see, let's see where you stack up in that manner in your one. Like that, that, that, had you like stacked up well and that, that would have been a success to me, honestly. Yeah. And I thought we saw more variance than ever, than I ever expected in, in your one, in that manner. And yet, I, I think there's some very valid complaints, you know, in, in the way that she was used in everything and from a minute's perspective, like, I think it's tough because, Josef Hernandez is there to win basketball games and like, AZF being on the court is their best chance of winning basketball games. And so I think that there's that aspect of it where it's like, when it comes just like to the pure minutes played and whatnot, like as, you know, the, the toll kind of started to be taken. It seemed like, there's a balance to that, that is, that is interesting and like, you, you got to win games, you know, and, and it's very, very clear that the wings are much better when AZF is on the court versus when she's off the court. And so, yeah, that's also, you know, part of the organization, if, you know, in reassuring Jose, my eyes of like, you know, you don't have to, like, you, you're, you're, you know, basically, like, if you don't play her, you know, but it's, it's an odd balance and it, it, it, it never, it never looked fully at ease or, or natural, actually, I think it's excited. Yeah, I think it's different being a college coach versus being a WNBA coach. I think part of your job is a WNBA coach is to be a manager as well. And you have to consider the short and long term implications of things. So having her come off this college season, then bringing her off the bench to start and then once you're not bringing her off the bench to, to have her playing these insane minutes was just like a lot to me. And look, I like Jose Fernandez. I think there's a lot that he's done well this year is a coach. I know that he bristles, like, but I also think that like, for example, he got a lot of heat for the awoke, queer comment that he made where he was like, well, I'd like to see her block more shots. I think, you know, in the light of like this Gino documentary and the way that these players function sometimes, I don't necessarily know that you can divorce that comment from a walk having a career high seven blocks and blocking like every Indiana starter last night. And essentially giving Dallas fans like new hope because things were looking very, very bleak. I think that there are definitely some things that he's done really well this season, unlocking Jessica Shepard. I do think that like in July, he did get paid to be aggressive in the way that, you know, she needs to be, he has her shooting more threes, which is I think is like really important to her evolution as well. I think for year two for Jose Fernandez, I think he really needs to understand that like being a W and B coach and being a NCAA coach are two very different things that require different slides of hand require a little bit different bedside manner and require more long-term thinking because you're also balancing a lot more games in a shortened schedule as well. And then you have the marathon of the playoffs for which Dallas is like, now it's so it was so funny like the way my mind shifted like watching the Dallas versus Indiana game because of a lot where who is definitely coming into her own Maddie Sieger, so I think it's underutilized. That's another player that I think needed to be utilized more as well. Like yes, you want to win every game, but the season is a marathon. Like you have to think about your long-term growth as well, like those are the things. But before the game all I'm thinking about is, okay, easy is, easy is out and it would take a minor miracle for the Dallas wings to be able to get out of the playoffs, to be able to get a top four pick in the draft just because of like the way the seeding is right now. They have like 99% likelihood to make the playoffs and I was like, that sucks. Like, you're basically going to be just like, just like, fodder for them in a soda links to chew on in the first round. I still feel that way in a lot of ways, like I feel like the team that could sneak into the playoffs ahead of you is the Portland fire, we have to play Golden State three times in the last few games. So like it's just kind of a tough one. Strange things happen, but it would take a miracle. However, I feel like I feel like wings fans needed this a lot of queer performance. Oh, desperately. Yeah. I so I've never seen like I was on like show on the timeline. I saw Indiana fans like, yeah, we won Indiana win and I saw Dallas fans be like, yeah, we won Indiana. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Hold on. I was like, then I saw some Dallas fans be like, I could never wish that. I was like, that's real. That's ethical. Right there. I can get with that. No, I mean, it was like literally with like every walk career block, I like sat up a little bit higher. I'm like, well, what if you know, like, what if you know, like just, it's got like a little bit more excited. Honestly, they're the biggest, what if that they can have is avoiding the Minnesota links in the playoffs. Like if you could jump up to to seven, if you could jump up to six, then what does it look like? And like, could you potentially power your way past the first round? And just, I mean, if you get, we're officially back on the Aureka Global Wally experience with Daisy Fudd out like the good, the bad, the ugly, the great, like it's all going to be here. And if you get the good, you get the great, like against, you know, a golden state or Las Vegas, it's a lot different than getting that against Minnesota. And so I think to me, the hope that's restored is that you aren't just going to like continue to build out this gap of, of you as the eights versus everyone else in like seven, six and five. And try and just get into a more favorable matchup because the links are just owned the wings and the entire season realistically as they have done a whole lot of teams across the WMBA. So like, if a lock we're could power this team to a seven seed, then that completely, you know, even though I still, you know, I might not pick them to win, but it completely changes the outlook of the possibility of winning versus, you know, a golden state or Las Vegas instead of Minnesota. Well, at the very least, it's a good building block for the future because I think that Jess Shepard's defense, I think it does sort of like create some long term questions. And I think if you can have a lot queer cleaning up for her while also spreading the floor, not only does it make Jess Shep a more awesome one offense as we saw in this Indiana fever game, but then also it's like land who I just feel for her like I just think that's somebody who like just needs to hit reset, like hopefully she comes back, rejuvenated the season after. But like to see Maddie Seagrist in those minutes to another floor spacer, another good defender as well. It's definitely a good positional defender, seeing that combination has like a really good game and yang that I think can work that definitely gave Indiana problems, but could also be a blueprint for, you know, making a little bit of noise in the first round, but really just like being able to set a foundation. The biggest question now becomes how do you keep a lot queer and Maddie Seagrist when you have all this money tied into a real battle? You know, I think that's the problem is that you don't think that you do. You have to put away. I don't think you do. I almost feel like I feel like you have to find a way. Maybe they can trade the biggest pick and attach it to somebody's salary and try to do it that way, because like I just feel like you look, you decided to bring a walk back. You've like invested all this in her, right? Like and now you have to find a way to keep her like you just do. And if it does cost you a draft asset like so be it that's just kind of how I feel about it. Hey, like and I think teams are going to be after the services of both Maddie and a walk. Like those are those are two players that I think are going to be big free agent to targets as they are both young and highly competent and modern at what they do. And there's just so much more meat on the bone with both of them, but Dallas does need to do everything they possibly can to keep them, especially I mean, honestly, you could look at like this pick not conveying to number top four as a potential silver lining in the fact that like the the salary that you take back with that pick. I mean, I'm sure they'd rather just have a high 2027 traffic, but the salary that you take back is a little bit is a little bit more favorable. Last thing I wanted to talk about, Kelsey Mitchell broke the record for consecutive games with a 20 point performance with 21. Unfortunately, it came in a loss. I felt like was a schedule. will loss for the Indiana fever, not a great Indiana fever game, but I did want to give Kelsey Mitchell her flowers though because, look, honestly, selfishly, I had a bunch of stats prepared for when this event happened and I still want to throw them out there. Go ahead. Do you call it out? Call it out, so. But I think that Kelsey Mitchell has been the most consistent Indiana fever producer on the offensive end. Like Caitlin is the best one. Alia is who they turn to when they have to go to their half core offense the most, but both of how the hell is a play is more contingent on teammate performance, their ability for their teammates to finish off of their passes. And they are more like high, high ceiling low floor type of players like you saw this with Alia the last night with like, you know, just not being able to finish. The confidence seems to have been a little bit in the three point shot as well. And then with Caitlin, as we know, it's like the highs are high, the lows are low, right? Kelsey Mitchell is just consistent. Like she is there no matter what and her ability to get unassisted buckets is I think something that's so important to the Indiana fever's offense, like when they need something to stabilize them. And that's what she's basically done in the last two years, like she has been the stabilizing offensive force. And so over the course of the last 20 games, she shot 50% from the three point line, 53% on three pointers off the dribble and it makes it I don't see Kelsey Mitchell miss a lot of three pointers off the dribble, right? Yeah. And she's not averaging 20 points through this stretch. She's averaging 27. Stupid. Like it's stupid. It's ridiculous. I mean, it's funny last night in our no cat space, like subscriber discord. Someone goes, what would a recapie if she was consistent and I let you just go, Kelsey Mitchell, like she would be Kelsey Mitchell, like this is this archetype of like shooting guards that we've had where you know, it's, you know, your, your maybe breeze, your plum, you know, maybe to a lesser degree now, she's a bit more combo guard at times, like when we see her, especially in LA this season, like, but like this is like the prime form of, like this, this is like the deon waiters of the NBA, like archetype, like that column. And it's like the best version of that, like it's, it's remarkable what she's doing. I mean, I just somehow talked about with with Greer on, on no cat space a lot, but like her, her signature move being her first step is ridiculous. Yeah. But you think about signature moves and basketball, like in like what normally it's some, you know, it's a fade away or you know, it's a, it's a crossover. It's what, no, Kelsey Mitchell was literally just faster than you and then she's also ridiculously skilled in scoring the ball. And there's nothing you can do about it. Like you are going to blink at the wrong time and Kelsey Mitchell was going to be passed. And it's, it's something that I just, I haven't, I haven't seen like athleticism used in this way before so effectively. And it's, it's a remarkable watch. I mean, like this, this tear that she's been on, like, this is now like, we're approaching half the season for this streak. Like that, that's what we're at now. And to your point, that the consistency of it has just been awesome, like it, she is, she is an offensive system in her own right just by having the ball in her hands because it's just how effective of a score she is. So, I mean, this has happened in a loss, you know, like in terms of like the celebratory aspect of it, but like 37 points is ridiculous. And to, I mean, it's unguardable. Like, I don't, I don't have the answer to this. I mean, this is a smaller player as well, like it's not this, there's, there's, there's aspects to kelvin Mitchell where it's like, yeah, you probably shouldn't be able to do this. And yet, every game, she does it, it's, it's, it's amazing. It's awesome. The crossover to the first step to the double crossover and she's just lost you and she is a wide open three. It's incredible. And then there's also the finishing ability too, like to your point, like some of the things that she does as a smaller player, like some of the passes that she catches from Katelyn, like cutting one way and then finishing on the other end of the basket, reversing it in, the finger rolls as well, like just the touch that she has around the rim, the creativity, it's incredible. It's just incredible. I was having this argument with a, with some, with a friend of mine offline about Kelsey Mitchell's MVP kiss. And for me, it's really hard to put Kelsey Mitchell in the MVP conversation because it's so rare for us to give an MVP to a player who is only elite at one thing. Like historically, the MVP has gone to somebody who is really good, like top level at two or three things at once because like that's also the way that you make the most impact as well. Like when you talk about Olivia and Katelyn, it's, it's the passing and the scoring, which allows them to be like this heliocentric force with Katelyn, like the passing in the way she is the offensive engine for like their transition attack. It's just like she runs that team, right? Asia Wilson, don't even need to explain it, right? Like the, the scoring hub, all of it, like the rebounding, the defense. And but I'm kind of wondering like, okay, you can use that as a case against Kelsey. But can you also use it as a case for her? Because how often is it that someone is so elite at this one thing and shows up in the moments that matters and ends up being for a team that has needed it, the stabilizing consistent force? Like maybe there's a argument to be made that what Kelsey Mitchell does is particularly important on this Indiana fever team. Yeah, I think there's because of how ridiculously great it is and now historic like with her scoring. I think there's absolutely a case to be made. I think if I was like to nominate a fever player like for the MVP running as something I go with Katelyn because I like had to nominate someone. And it is like for MVP in particular like, it's like I want more general impact on like everything, you know, and if it's, so like I think it's hard for me to make the case. But ultimately the scoring is is that damn good where it's like if there was ever going to be a player where you made a case off of pure scoring, nobody has had a case like Kelsey Mitchell has this season. So like I think that there's, I think there's a way to make the case. I don't think it's one that like I can subscribe to like personally, but like, again, if there's ever going to be a player where you're making the case off of just pure scoring, no one has had a case as strong as this one. Kelsey Mitchell. Well, the crazy thing is I was looking back at like players that have won the MVP that are kind of in the ilk of what Kelsey is doing and the only one that actually comes close is Diana Tarrassee. Yeah. I also think if the MVP leader was like Asia's still averaging more points on the season. That's true. So I think that like if Kelsey was just like leading the way, averaging, like, you know, kind of how Asia was honestly for a lot of the season where she's like four points, five points, six points above the rest of the league in terms of her scoring averages, then I think you can really get into it. But when she's not leading the league in scoring as great as this stretch run has been, I think it's a bit harder to make the case. That's true. Also, honestly, if you're Indiana, like I don't know if I can think of a better one, two punch that I want to have in my back court, right? Like those are those those are contrast in their game that actually make them great compliments to each other as well. Like they are kind of the perfect, the two perfect teammates for each other. And when it's working, it works like Caitlin hits a logo three and then Kelsey hits a step back three and then Caitlin comes down and she had somebody with the pass and Kelsey runs a pick and roll with the league boss and you're like, Jesus Christ. Like, what do you do? Like they have they have such a perfect alchemy of being different enough, but then also being able to work really well together in the same offensive system as well. It's just it's pretty beautiful stuff. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. It's, I mean, the best offense for a reason and Kelsey, which was a large part of that reason. Absolutely. Yeah. Tyler, thank you so much for making the time. Is there anything that you want to plug before I let you go? Just no cash space. Just as a whole whether it's on YouTube or if it's on the website, no cash space, WBB.com, like we're we're making it happen. Support, uh, support independent creators, support independent coverage of a woman's basketball. So yeah, just just NCS across the board. You guys doing great job. As always, I love the live in Miles video. I love these like longer essays that you're doing on video. Like you're honestly, you're one of the best reaction people ever. Like I love going to you like right after a post game, but seeing you flex out this new muscle. It's been fun. I'm really enjoying it. I'm really, really enjoying it. We're trying to some new side. I love it. It's great. I love that. Um, and it's tough because I also think that some of the things that like, um, especially in like the media landscape with like the algorithm being the way that is some of the stuff that like you really pour into will not get as much engagement or as much views as the stuff is that it's just like you reacting to something right after a game. Um, but I don't think that's not a reason not to do it. Yeah. That's what I'm learning. That's, that's, that's what that's what we're actively pursuing is, uh, for, for, for the love of the game, if you want to go and go and talk about these things. Exactly. Yeah. It's just fun. So that's what. Yeah. Exactly. And that's ultimately the reason why you're doing this. And I can feel, I can feel the love of the game when you're doing these essays. Like you did a really good one about the, um, French team in the Olympics and their rise as well. Or just like the French general, the general rise and I think that if anybody is like trying to get hyped for Phoebe, you should watch that as well. That was really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're making my face right again. I want to make you blush at the start. That's how we book, like we bookend this. You know, thanks. Watch at the beginning and the end of the podcast. Thanks. You're like, woo. Yeah. Anyway, thank you so much for making the time today. I appreciate you. As always, thank you to Stephan Anderson for producing and we will be back next week.