Outkast's "Ms. Jackson"

Hey, one song nation. We're off this week, but we'd like to revisit one of our favorite early episodes of the pod our episode on Miss Jackson by hip hop legends outcast. That's right, Diallo. This is the Grammy award winning song that Rolling Stone plays at number 55 on their list of best songs of the 2000s. Outcast isn't just for my hometown. We grew up in the same neighborhood. This one's very special to me. So until next week, enjoy our one song episode on Miss Jackson. Woohoo! The music you're listening to right now is by Andre 3000. It's off of his new album, "New Blue Sun". And if you're wondering why I am using my NPR voice, it's strictly to point out that some of you actually fell for that. Some of you actually thought that that was music from his album because you have not listened to it. You're telling people you've listened, you haven't. No, as you can tell from what lecture is now playing, we're going further back in time to the year 2000. This episode of one song goes out to all the baby mamas, mama mamas, baby mamas mamas mamas, mamas all the mamas and all the babies. That's right. On this episode of one song, we're apologizing a trillion times and talking about Outcast's seminal three times platinum, billboard chart topping, ode to complicated relationships. That's right. We are talking Outcasts and the song, Miss Jackson. If you're nasty. Different Miss Jackson. Oh, for real? I'm actor, writer, director, and sometimes DJ D'Ollarittle. And I'm producer DJ and songwriter Luxury, aka the guy who sometimes frequently often even talks about and even whispers about interpolation. And this is one song. My friend, I am so excited to be talking about not just Miss Jackson, but about Outcast. I mean, this is I've been waiting for this episode. I am so stoked too. We were phone around earlier, but I was playing it in the style of jazz food because Andre 3000 announced that he was dropping a new instrumental album called New Blue Sun. So perfect timing. We've had a chance to all culturally. Yeah, I feel like I'll cast this back in the public eyes back out there in the zeitgeist and what a perfect time to talk about. Not just their crazy career path. Right. But in particular, the stankonia album, you know, which is sort of like at the halfway mark of their career. So I think, you know, what better timing could it be? All right. So let's talk a little bit about Outcast. I'll talk about stankonia. First of all, just to set the stage on how like central this album and the song is to hip-hop culture, if not global culture. Stankonia, not only was it three times platinum at this single, Miss Jackson was the first outcast single to hit number one. At the 2000 and one Grammy awards, it won two Grammys won for best rap album and Miss Jackson won for best rap performance by a duo or a group. And out of the pantheon of all time albums, it's ranked 64 on the 500 best albums of all time. Not just best hip-hop albums, just best albums. So Diallo, I want to start by asking you this, Miss Jackson drops in 2000. So right around hip-hop's 25th birthday, what does this song say about the evolution of the genre of hip-hop? It's so interesting. I feel like it's a group maturing and it's also a genre maturing. Like if you think about it, like this song is about, you know, the sloppiness of breakups, you know what I mean? Like, or, you know, having children out of wedlock, you would one would assume, like, you know, this is, there's no surprise here. Andre had been in a serious relationship with the Erica Badu, the Miss Jackson and the song is based on her mom. Right. But I mean, it's a very mature thing to be right. I mean, like, if you think about it was literally only, okay, this is 2000, 15 years earlier, you still got like, you know, run DFC. It's like that. That's the way it is. You know, you still got Curtis. Well, like, these are great songs. These are essentially like party songs. You can break it. Oh, pretty rocking. Yeah. Some bragging going on. My Adidas, my shoes are better than you are. Like this is literally talking about the intricacies of a relationship. So it's almost bizarre that, you know, hip-hop has been around for 50 years. And exactly the halfway mark for hip-hop, you know, you've got this great, you know, flowering and maturing that had been kind of coming along throughout the 90s. I mean, like, I feel like the 90s is when hip-hop starts taking on more complicated subjects. And albums like the miseducation of Lauren Hill, you know, outcast records, you know, there are more and more people, you know, trying to sort of expand what the genre can talk about. We're talking about expanding the genre. We're literally talking about that moment at the source awards where expanding that the geography of hip-hop. You want to talk a little bit about what happened in 1995 at the source or those who know me know I'm from Atlanta. You know, outcast when he was at the source of words saying, you know, the South has something to say, like, you know, we heard that and we had been supporting outcasts. I want to take a step back and just talk about Atlanta real quick. And, you know, Atlanta sort of an interesting city from on the hip-hop map at the time, you know, you basically had two camps. You know, I figured like this is the inside of you because you're growing up. You are in Atlanta. I went to high school. They're older than me, but I went to high school with the goody mob. You know, I mean, I went to the same mall as outcasts, goody mob, the same mall noise. Oh, we all went to Rembrandt Mall. And actually, that's something I want to talk about too. So real quick, the hip-hop map is that Atlanta at that time was between three places. We had Miami bootieshake music coming, you know, for Miami. We had West Coast and I'm going to lump, sorry, Texas. I'm going to lump the Texas rappers like Scarface and Rapalot. You know, you had, you know, the West Coast rappers and NWA and Dr. Dre and that whole sound. And then of course, you know, some of us, I feel like in white schools, the punk's didn't get along with the new romantics. Well, in my high school, they were clearly camps. Like, they're the kids who listened to West Coast and Texas, you know, for the lack of a better turn gangster rap. And then there were, you know, sort of my click, which, you know, we were, we were nerdy. We got the homework done, y'all. And we were more into day lost soul. Backpack. Yeah, there was a lot of back. You know what group from Atlanta gets forgotten a lot as a rest of development. Um, right, you know, like, yeah, the way that those guys not the first are they like, they outcast are not technically the first. The rest of the elements on the radio. They've listened Atlanta had rappers and I'm glad you bring this up Atlanta had rappers. But, you know, like as far as establishing in Atlanta sound, I don't know that we had that, like speech and arrested development. They felt very much like they went to, you know, more house and Spelman, like the way we call the Atlanta University, you know, the AU schools. Like, and I had people of my schools who, who dress like that and they had like digable planets down there was a guy in my high school. His name was Hashim, but everybody called him grasshopper. You know, like, there was, there was like that. They dressed like hippies a lot. They dress like there was a lot of. He was so wise, was that a karate kid thing? What is that? You know what? Like everybody he tried to rap me and my friends. We all tried to rap. We still have those raps committed to memory. I'm not going to do them today. But, you know, like, it was really like half the kids wanted to, you know, be about that inductive. You know, be about that NWA type life. And the other half were really about like that day last soul and try to call quest type life. And, you know, a rest of the film was there. We had a group called y'all so stupid. That was very like very few people remember y'all so stupid. Shout out to y'all so stupid. Shout out to parental advisory, which was a group that was sort of in the same click as a outcast and they went first. They were inspired by tipper gores warning. Well listen, I'm telling you PA as they were short. If you listen to that first outcast record, he gives a lot of shout outs to PA. Because parental advisory was in that same. These are all proto proto rap groups out of the dungeon family click and they they were more tri city. We're talking about the dungeon in a minute. We're going to talk about very important. They were more tri cities. I went to maze. If you know the difference like maze was sort of like more middle class tri cities was still a little bit still a little bit wild, but like we all congregated at linux square mall at Green Briar mall. And if you know the history of our part of Atlanta. And I know I'm being verbose, but I got to get all this stuff out. If you think about our part of Atlanta. It was white until literally 1961. It was almost solidly white and then one black family moved into Peyton forest. And by the way, the dude was a doctor and a D David. Like ideal. Is this guy? Is he like a famous neighbor? Clinton Warner, I believe. Dr. Warner and famously moved into the Peyton forest area. Wow. Every white family in the Peyton forest neighborhood. Which is the case. It's all part of cascade heights where all of us are from. They panicked. They actually built what was known as the Atlanta Berlin wall. And it was a wall that was to discourage any more black families from moving into the area. After very man is man is very impressed all the time. Wow. But black families continue to move into the neighborhood, including my family, which moved there in 1974. I went around yet, but like we moved into the cascade heights area. Our family did in 1974. But that's 1974. 1970 1962. I think he moves in. I saw a report by 1963 by July of 1963 over 160,000 white people had moved out of Southwest Atlanta. Jesus Christ. There were only years in a span of three and a half years. You went from it being an all white neighborhood. By everything, but the law itself to only 15 black to only 15 white families left in that neighborhood. It changed literally overnight. It was like a textbook example of white flight. And I bring all that up just to say that growing up in Southwest Atlanta when I did late 70s. It was just like it was like a black mecca. It was like it was middle class. It was black. black we still the white people didn't take their golf course we had to golf courses in our area you had these beautiful homes with like these long lawns and it was 100% black and the reason I bring all that up is to say that if you're black in an all black environment will then suddenly you're not known as like the black guy does that make sense and so at my high school the jocks were black and the nerves were blacks the bullies were black the bleed were black and I look at Andre and I look at his path and you just realize that this is what happens when people sort of are allowed to be more than just their skin tone and when they're able to say okay what's really going on inside with me you know it makes sense that one guy is sort of like a street guy and another guy is like this amazing artistic poetry poetry guy right it makes a lot of sense because in the cultural stew that is Atlanta you can be as you know you can be whatever you decide to be but they're also friends and they're also there also friends and they're also playing each other sentences you know two sides of the same boy and they're also met in the mall which is the hub of social activity in Atlanta Atlanta was a very special place to live if you were black growing up in the 80s and the 90s it just was and it sounds that way yeah cities a little bit different now but it was that unique cultural stew that we all grew up in that allowed for us and TLC and eventually the TIs and the ludicrous isn't this whole wave of Atlanta artists to just blow up and do their thing I mean like I feel like only Atlanta could have produced us when it did so just before we get into the song we take a quick step back talk a little bit about the history of the band and it actually starts it's funny little fun to call my band I always think I know groups they're a band they're duo they're a group of this red band they're a band well it's funny because they're they are almost called the misfits like that that's crazy really funny to me because obviously outcast misfits 80 aliens these are all of a theme like these guys felt like outsiders but once they found out once outcast found out that there was already a band called the misfits who sound like this by the way once they found out that that band existed already they're like we have to find another name here well I think they they they were clearly talking to a lawyer at some point because I think the reason that the K is in the name is because that there were some motorcycle enthusiasts with some black members known as the outcast motorcycle club oh really right that's why the K is in there right but they had they had an idea they had a concept for this for the for their artistic entity whether or not we'll call it a band or a group or a duo so the story of the band is it's 1992 we all talked a little bit about organized noise this is a group of three dudes Rico Wade Ray Murray and Sleepy Brown who basically and I think it was Rico Wade's literally downstairs basement but it's barely it's barely a basement there's a dirt floor so they call it the dungeon the dungeon and this is where they start to make music and there's a place that they can go yeah hang out and hang out and I think another family kind of unit and I and I don't think that Sleepy Rico and Ray have gotten their flowers I think organized noise is almost like the sauce like we all know but like your typical person walking around listening music doesn't always know that these songs how the music is made behind this thing from TLC's waterfalls to ludicrous's Saturday like all the like they've produced so many that's right yeah anyway that's right well you're absolutely right and this is where this is where outcast as like teenagers literally as we're Andre and Antoine as like literally 17 18-year-olds dude I was learning how to write music and make music together and I this probably is good a point as any for me to bring this up the first time I ever saw outcast music I actually went to the store to buy a Wu Tang CD and I was just going through the the bins as people typically do and I remember pulling out a CD where the guys had on Atlanta they had on Atlanta braves hats and I was like what and I look on the back and they had a an inter I didn't know at the time I don't think I knew it was an interlude but they had a thing that said welcome to Atlanta it was like the fourth track on the album or something like that there's something playlist I had never heard of using to seeing the word Atlanta I was not used to it I bought it unheard I bought a CD I did not know the band I was like they got something on here called welcome to Atlanta I'm down and I was immediately blown away I just this what's so interesting to me is that it's it's I'm not the first to say it but the geographic aspect of hip hop the story of hip hop being such a geographic story and if you've seen that great Netflix hip hop evolution series like every episode is about we start in New York and then we go you know there's Atlanta there's New Orleans there's every single city gets its own gets its own episode because every single city has its own story and every single story has very significant differences in what happened every city and I was just going to say just to finish that thought while there is clearly an equivalent in other genres like I definitely didn't grow up thinking about rock and roll being although of course Metallica was a local band I was kind of proud of them faith no more I had some sense of the bands that were like local bands I really it wasn't a big part of my consciousness in the same way like I certainly didn't get excited that when I saw that a band was from San Francisco in the same like the Jefferson airplane from San Francisco whatever who cares like a little bit of pride but it didn't have the same significance to me that clearly hip hop the geographic centrality of hip hop yes there's something about hearing the local guys wrap about the very representation it's connected it's I know what that is that's that's me I feel connected to this band I feel connected to this they they they had so much love and that you know again shout out to arrested development shout out to y'all so stupid it was really outcast organized noise mr. DJ who was sort of like the Alicia he Muhammad of outcast this DJ does not get mentioned a lot third or fourth guy but he's in the crew that he's the third guy technically especially in the in the days of that first album goody mob they they they establish what the dirty south sound was going to be like they're like you know as much as Seattle was established by Nirvana Nirvana and what's the other one there's another one Pearl Dan how could I mud honey something trees screaming screaming trees there's Seattle Grunge band right as much as those Grunge bands said this is a sound of Seattle I feel like outcast and goody mob and all those guys said this is the sound of the south distinctly the South not Texas not Miami but everything else Alabama so that meant a lot to you because especially in this moment as we've been talking about Atlanta before prior to outcast it exists a little bit culturally in the radar we tried arrested development but suddenly it explodes it's huge it's great you're proud and you recognize these individuals as people like you recognize the art they're making it speaks to you on many many levels not the least of which is that you're from the same place they are and how exciting is that it was a very exciting time to be from Atlanta another important thing about organized noise is that they're teaching outcast about songwriting and production and one interesting thing that they're doing that's a little different it's not the first time we've got on the on the west coast we've got Drey and the whole death row crew doing alternatives to sampling based music sampling based hip hop but organized noise particular are really focused on how how much instrumentation can we add how much can we grab the some the talented base players from the community bring them into the studio and work with them yeah and recreate ideas and they are definitely interpolating and they're not not sampling but the sampling becomes more of a sonic thing it's less of a hole taking a hole to bomb loop of something and looping it they're doing something completely different I mean the chronic the chronic cannot be overstated how huge that I mean the chronic is like the atom bomb of hip hop because chronic is the atom bomb and it's the reason why they convince LaFace wreck like literally a face to sign outcast because they're uncomfortable it sounds like L.A. Reed and LaFace records are not like they're it's not their expertise these are R and B guys these are like pop radio guys yeah and arrested right and organized noise keeps coming in and saying hey look we got these great these two guys outcasts are going to be the next big thing and L.A. Reed is not aware of not comfortable with not familiar with hip hop until the chronic comes out sells a billion copies he's like I don't know much about this but you guys keep telling me you got a hip hop act that's going to blow up I'm going to I give here's the here's the green light I'm telling you as an intern in the summer of 1995 yeah after outcasts first album is actually out there you know like it's out there people are happy about it like the city of Atlanta's happy about outcasts you still got the sense why is outcast on an R and B label and was also also surprised we had a legitimate rap label in town we had So-So-Dev which had a little house right at the corner of Piedmont and Peachtree which ironically is like walking distance to the LaFace artist either the LaFace offices on Peachtree so like they were within walking distance but they were like worlds apart because So-So-Dev was we already knew germane to pre who you know he had like I want to say he had a relationship with a MC shy D and DJ Smurf and like these were the guys in Atlanta who were making Miami-based records but then they had a huge huge crossover success with Chris Cross like Chris Cross is John like if you were alive in 1991 and had a radio you heard jump several times an hour like jump was such a huge thing Chris Cross became such a huge thing so I imagine that between Dr. Dre's selling all that he was selling and then this guy on the street down the block selling we got a record we just got a cross our fingers and jumping off - Now, they were probably like, "Yo, we gotta get on this." - Jumped in the ocean. - Right, gotta get some of this rap money. So they do, and they put out this 1993 comp of very La Faye's Christmas with "Players Ball," which is ostensibly a Christmas song. - Oh, it's funny about it. - It was beginning to look a lot like-- - Like what? - It's beginning to look like every step. - Exactly, right? - It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas. - It just, it tricks you right off the bat with that pretty eye. - Just Andre came in strong. He was like, "I'm already gonna reinterpret it." - Let's play it. - You know, let's go for it. - It is the version on the album. He's got the "Slaybells" on his heels. - I mean, I love that version, but when they took it off the "Slaybells" and re-did it, I like this version better, personally. - No, okay, so this is what I want to talk about. - He's cool. - This is called "The Extended Remix." - That's right. - This was very hard to find. - So, okay, so the version "Slaybells," first off, I had all three versions, but let me tell you, the version that you just played, not only is it most people's favorite, but it was extremely hard to find. That's not the version that got a lot of blood. - It's not on the album. - It was the one that got the most play, and it was in the music video and all this stuff. The version that you play, which goes by a couple of names, but I usually see it "extended remix." Sometimes it's called "extended TV remix." That was a really hard find. I had to literally go on the nascent web and find it because it was on Japanese pressings and stuff like, but no, trust me, anytime you could break that one out at a party, which I eventually did find the 12-inch once I started DJing, that was the version that we all love, love. And it is because of those piano chords, they're so sweet. - Jazz. Absolutely. They're freaking beautiful. Beautiful chords. - They're like deep house chords. - I love them. - Yeah. Well, as soon as you said that, about 19,000 laptops fired up and put on garage band. - Right. - So this leads us all to 2000 and the fourth album, Stankonia, which coincides with the artist's growth, the band growth, the worldwide popularity of Outcast has gone from being two teenagers in this dungeon to now they have their own studio. They're ready to break out. They actually buy Bobby Brown's studio. - I heard that. They said they waited outside for Bobby Brown for like days on in. - And he's older to them. They renamed it Stankonia. - Stankonia. - I didn't know the, the only part, you know, Stank is stank, you know, funky. But like, the only I was always like, that feels like a place. It feels like kind of like-- - It's supposed to be both a place and a putt. - But literally, it turns out to be the title of a poster in Andre's bedroom called Plutonia. It comes from Plutonia, which is a futuristic city. So a place I imagine you can, I think it's probably all those things. - No, no, that was the end. - No, but I'm saying like, Stankonia sounds like I'm gonna put that stank on ya. - No, that was what I always thought it was just a pun. I think it's clearly a pun. I don't know why. - It's a pun in a place. That's all good. - That's all good. - This is also at the time when Outcast is saying like, they're like, "Stank you very much." Like they say that a lot in the interviews, but go ahead. - I love the puns though. I love the wordplay. They're gonna get into it later, but even Andre 3000, the new record, all of the song titles are so funny. It's probably the flute album. He's a funny dude. - Very funny. - A lot of him are between both of them. - A lot of him, right? - And I wanna talk about that at some point, because I do feel like a lot of times, you know, people are like, who's better? Paul or John? - Yeah. - Or Mick and Keith. Or, you know, Guy or Thomas to the real heads. I feel like Outcast is strong because, you know, as much as Andre kills it whenever he does guest versus, big boys have some amazing guest versus of his own. I like the two of them together because there is a, you know, the same way I'm like Atlanta wasn't competing with itself to see who's gonna be number, like, I don't give the sense they're trying to occupy each other's lanes, you know what I mean? - They respect each other's creativity. - Yeah. There's so much mutual respect there. - They bounce off each other. They love each other's brothers. And at this point, they're ready to start producing for themselves. They gradually started acquiring other skills. Andre is there like learning to play guitar and it turns out that he starts to write the song we're about to talk about today on guitar. And they bring in a third guy who's there are touring DJs. That's David Mr. DJ Sheets. - There's been there from the beginning. - Been there from the beginning. Three of them formed the Earth tone, 111 production crew. So together with David Mr. DJ Sheets, they formed this Earth tone 3 production crew. And that is the new core operation. They're still working with organized noise. They actually do four songs on this record with them, not the least of which is so fresh and so clean. - An amazing track. - Of course. And they are taking cue from what they've already learned. They're bringing in live instrumentation from Atlanta club musicians and they're making their new record. They're making Stankonia. Which brings us to the song of the day, Miss Jackson from the fourth album, Stankonia. Let's talk about it. - Yeah, let's talk about it. First of all, I thought Miss Jackson was the, you know, it's just the passage of time. I thought it was the first single off this album. B-O-B was the first one, "Bombs Over Bad Dag," which I really liked that song. But apparently critics loved it and audiences were like, "I'm kind of weird, even for our cast." And didn't really respond to it, even though it's got a really upbeat, drive-y sound. But it's Miss Jackson that captured everybody's attention. - Yeah. - So let's talk about it. We have the stems and what is the first stem from this song that you want to play for us? First of all, can I just say I'm excited that we're doing a hip-hop song with pure stems. - Right. - Like you said, it's not a lot of sampling. There is some sampling. - There is some sampling here. There's some creative reuse of recorded material. - Yeah. - But if you will. - But let's start with the stems. What's the first stem you got for us? - Okay. So let's start with the drums because the song starts with that famous reverse sound. And this is what it is. So this is Raj Kala playing the Kongas, and I'll play it for you as it is in the mix first and then I'll play it backwards so you can hear what that is. Here's how the song starts. Reverse in other words, forwards. Here's what was actually performed. Wow, that's nice. - Yeah. It's just a guy playing the Kongas and that can play backwards. That's what gets a. - Yep. - Yep. That's Raj Kala playing Kongas and then having, and then the tape will slip backwards, okay? So we got that and then we've got our beat. Let's listen to that. If you can hear there's another backwards element there that I had. It's a backwards I had. So the mix you've got. - Yeah. I was like, what is this room? Is that? - Yeah. So that's the full beat right there, going to the whole top. That's incredibly dope. - Incredibly dope. - Wow, that's really cool. - All right, and then if you think that's cool, listen to this. This is on bass. We have an actual performer here as well. And what's cool is, like, this guy is a legend in his own right. This is bass guitar as performed by Aaron Mills from the band Cameo. Now I'll bring the beats back in. With those backwards I had, the backwards tongue is all together. When you know that it's. - That's so good. - When you learn that it's Cameo, it's like, oh yeah, of course that's how it works. I want to hear candy. - That's here somewhere. I got candy queued up right here for you. - Oh, there you go. - That's so cool. It's man. I blew. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You really feel like you have an idea of what the. - What? - We're Andre and I want to say Andre and Andre. We're Andre and big boy, we're their hymns are at while they're making this album. - Yeah, it's so funny to think about Cameo specifically because those guys are funny and crazy and bringing ideas from all kinds of different sources to the funk, right? - I mean, I think humor is strong in the outcast family. Is it strong in Atlanta? Is that. - I think I'd listen. I'm always glad to say. - Is this an Atlanta set for humor? - There's something. Hell yeah. I'll never forget when Andre got out of the song with Kesha of all people. He was like, "I call it Kesha 'cause she thinks it's good to her," you know, like, yeah, that was like some low-hanging Atlanta humor fruit and nobody beat him to it. So, you know, Andre, he was always going to come with some jokes. - He's always coming with some jokes. All right. Well, let's move on. We got some piano as well. There's another live performance. This is from Marvin Chan's Parkman. I don't know why his nickname is Chan's, but this is what Chan's, when Chan's gets on the synth, this is what Chan's like. - The music can only have one Marvin. - All right. So, here he is playing piano. - I mean, I always thought that that was brutal. I heard that the first time I was like, "Oh, they incorporated the wedding song." That's all he's playing throughout the entire song, too, it was just that loop. And it is the wedding march. - But it's also got that, you know. Yeah, it's got a little part at the end, so it's not just, but it's brilliant. - But that is an interpolation, if you will, although technically it's more of a reference. It's not a canon indeed. What is that? - That is the bridal chorus from Richard Wagner's 1850 opera. - Shout out to Wagner. - Long arenas. Long out of copyright. - A lot of the balconies. - Long out of copyright. So, it's not protected. Anyone can. You can write a new song using that, if you like. There you go. Exactly. And that also shows up, by the way, in the guitar part, which Dre is playing himself in the background. This is a little harder to hear, but it kind of cuts through the mix every now and then, especially at the end. But here's Andre 3000 on electric guitar. [Music] And that's happening throughout the whole song. [Music] What's cool is that it's not a loop. He's just playing it over and over again. So, it gets a little different every time. And he's not like, he's not Jimmy Hendrix. So Cass has always- A little wonky in a good way. They start at one place and throughout their whole career, it's such a, it's just like the Beatles in the sense that like, even the casual observer can see, oh, the group that they are in 2000, or the group that they are having forbidden by 2005, is not the same group that put out Southern Playlist, the Cadillac Music in 1994. It's just not the same group. And you're on the ride with them. You know, like, it's like, no, why should they stay the same? I mean, let them go wherever their imagination takes place. I'm excited to talk. We're going to continue through the stems. Obviously, we're going to get to the vocals and everything else. And I can't wait to get through all of that, but I also can't wait to have our big conversation about the current stuff that he's doing. And I'm so excited about- We can talk about that. On the way 3000's creative journey and his creative like- And I want to talk about Big Boy because I feel like he has had a journey of his own. Listen, after the break, we'll be getting deeper into Miss Jackson. So we'll be right back. Let's get back to the stems. What you got next for us? The synths, that kind of high-pitched keyboard, just the three-chord thing that goes through the entire song. It's actually credited not to an any individual, but it's credited to Earth Tome III as a whole. And here it is. That's it. It's really simple. The keyboard is in a bass mode. But can I say that is some sheer synth-perfect- That is some synth. That's some depot mode. I really like that. And some- actually human-like, I'd say more than depot mode. Depot mode would be a little more intricate. Play it again. Play it again. Let's hear it one more time. I'm hearing a lot of human-like in that. orchestral. You know what, orchestral. For the tone. For the tone, you're right. It's OMD. For the sound. For some of you here. It reminded me of this just because we're talking about it. By the way, I was like softly as if I pay piano in the dark. Like, I wonder if he was thinking that when he played that. Because we have a podcast and it's fun to play music. It just reminds me of this. It's just a chord. Sorry, Jackson. I will yield. Never make it make a dotica. I apologize. Me and your daughter got this thing going on. You say it's poop and love. We say it's real strong. It's like a human league. Like the potential for the human league outcast crossover. If anybody's still doing mashups first off, you're 20 years too late. But try that. See if it works. So those are your sins. We've never heard all the instruments. And if you'd like to, we can get into the vocals. There's a lot of fun. I love to get into the vocals. Tell me. Tell me about these vocals because these are these lyrics are outstanding and grown up. I was actually thinking it might be a fun way to do this. Is there a vocal in particular? Because there's so many great lines. I'll start with one and then I'll bounce it to you. You pick the next one. So I'm going to start with a. Let's hear the. Let's hear the baby's mama's intro thing because that's just that's one of many. I have to set the whole thing off. Okay, here we go. Yeah, this one right here goes out to all the baby's mama's mama's. Mama's mama's. Hey, baby mama's mama's. And then there's this. I know. Go like that. I mean, it makes the song instantly a classic. You know, we were talking about how, you know, technically Andre's first line in any outcast song that was ever released was, you know, it's beginning to look a lot like what? Like it immediately grabs you. Yeah, and this one is the same way. It's like this one goes out to all the baby's mama's mama's mama's. Like he. Yes, it's almost like in a pre tick tock age, he understood that there was a certain brain algorithm. And he's like, man, you get three seconds to get me. Yeah, yeah. I saw the DOC talking about working with Snoop on nothing but a G thing and he was like Snoop, you know, you got to say something at the top of this song that's going to immediately draw people in. Yeah. And he was like, and with that advice, Snoop wrote one, two, three into the foe. He was like, counting like everybody knows what's going to come next, but how are you going to reinvent counting? Like, like good rap songs, they draw him from the very beginning. That's so true. Yeah, that's such like an innovation of the medium. I mean, like we don't, you don't necessarily have that like, like Beatles songs aren't like one, two, John. Here I come. Like that might have been a good idea. But that might have worked. That might have worked. Right back in the day. Paul and John, they let some money on the table. Just like. They should have spelled it out J to the O to the H to the N L E N O N. I mean, they would have worked. Just spell your name. All right. So now it's your turn. What lyric would you let me isolate next? I think like the second half of Andre's verse on this song. I, you know, I think when Erica Badu said she heard the song, big boys verse, she did not like. Yeah. She thought it was like rude and disrespectful. A bit aggro. And, but she said when she heard Andre's part, she was like, it felt to her anyways, like, truthful. So I think with that in mind, maybe something that plays like the second half of his verse. Because there's one line in particular when he says, and yes, I will be present on the first day of school and graduation. Like that is such a mature line. Like going back to what we were saying earlier in the episode about hip hop is maturing at this point. But like that line, like it's so pregnant with like a relationship that must still be maintained. And yet everybody's compromising. Like that line kind of blows me away. That's beautiful. Right, right. Yeah. I love it. Let's, let's get technical with Andre's voice because he has such a rich voice just when he's talking. Like when you hear him in interviews, you're like, oh, yeah, that dude. I guess if there was no such thing as rap, maybe he would have been an announcer. You know, I mean, like he's got such a rich voice. And yet I do hear some effect on that. Yeah. There's a delay. Is that what that is? That delay. Thoughts of he asking what happened to the fill in that is reverb. There's reverb. There's reverb, which gives it that feeling of being in a church. Yes. And then I always think like a big hallway. And then at the end of the line, you can hear a little delay tail. Thoughts of he asking what happened to the fill in that hurt and me had. I pray so much. Actually, it's most, I take that back. That's all reverb that we're hearing in this mix. And there's something about his lyrics. You know, I think about this a lot because there's some rappers who I like them. But it's hard for even me lifelong. It's hard for me to understand what they say. His enunciation is so clean and clear that I've never had a doubt when I really listen. What Andre was saying. And yet it's still super complicated and syncopated and all the rhythm. I'm reminded of a line on TLC's album, the last song on crazy sexy cool. I believe it's a song called something wicked this way comes. And he says, I remember back in the time when the only signs we had with pickets. You know, like just from the from the start, he's hitting you. Yeah. You know, and then he goes into, you know, Jeanne's killing brothers for colors. Things that we wear for fashion. Other brothers use it for a reason to be blasting. Like it's just it's well pronounced. And yet he still hasn't loses Atlanta accent. I'm going to keep coming back to Atlanta. Like the Atlanta accent is not the Mississippi accent. It's not the Texas accent. It's not a North Kaka lack accent. It's a very specific accent. It's a very specific exit that I can fall into. Hey, hey, if I need to fall into that exit, I can fall into that exit. Oh boy. You know what I mean? Like it's just another yellow. Hey, listen, I grew up there. You know what I'm saying? And now let's listen to the iconic hook with all of its different hook sub hooks. This is the hook with like multiple sub hooks within a hook. I'm sorry, miss Jackson. Ooh, I am for real. Never meant to make your daughter cry. I apologize a trillion times. Okay, now you have to rank the hooks. What is the top hook within a hook of that hook? Oh, interesting. Is it the who? I mean, the who is infectious. I think you got to have it all. I think it all comes together because if you take any part of it off, it's almost like outcast itself. If you take away big boy, it's Andre, which is amazing, but it's not outcast. I don't want it to be the burger. I want the bun. I want the ketchup. I want the pickles. I want it all. I want all those layers. By the way, speaking of layers, I hear at least two Andre vocals in the mix. Like a high and a low. I won't be able to separate them, but it is interesting because I feel like nowadays almost every rapper has a singing voice. Yeah. But like, this is still, you know, this was probably recorded in 99. Like, with the exception of Lauren Hill, I feel like not every rapper may be most deaf. Lauren Hill and most deaf are rapping and singing in equal parts, but this is a new look for for outcast. Like, you know, he's singing a lot. Well, it's funny. You mentioned that because the other part I wanted to play for you, which is a really fun little moment. I think this is after the first chorus. It's really sweet. And he is, he's kind of doing a little bit of everything as you say. I'll just play it for you and then we can talk about it. That's like a Beach Boys kind of like that was crazy, right? That was a pit sounds. You know, I think what's cool about that is that how many times have you heard that song, and I did not hear that other part of it ever because I was just, I was literally the part that was on the beat, you know what I mean? But like the. Yeah, I like that's on a very different part of the beat. That was super cool. Yeah, yeah. He's playing with counterpoint and he's maybe listening to the Beach Boys or talking and he's talking. There's a lot going on there and it's a way of having multiple different vocal ideas, almost like a Mariah Carey song, right? We were joking on the Mariah Carey episode. We talked about how there's this sort of church like moment where we have four or five different melodic lines that are playing off of each other. And in the mix, it doesn't feel chaotic. If you just listen to it out of nowhere, it's like, what is this chaos? It makes sense because over the course of time in the song, it's built to that moment. Also it's building, building, building. He was obviously going out with and had a child with Erika Badu. There's something about his falsetto flourishes that sounds like Erika Badu around that time, you know what I mean? Like that. That's interesting. You know, I mean a rimshot baby. You know like, she rubbed off on him. Well, it also reminds me of Sleepy Brown himself, who's doing hooks like that in their previous, in their previous songs, right? He's doing his, he's doing his Curtis Mayfield-esque kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, there's no way that they could, right? By the way, shout out to Big Rube, who was a major part of all those early outcast records. Yeah, it's interesting because they were obviously in the studio with organized noise. And the same way I'm saying, some of that Erika probably rubbed off on Andre. Some of that organized noise, clearly rubbed off on them when it came time for Andre and Big Boy to produce their own song. Yeah, because when you're in the room with someone creatively and you see them doing it, yeah, it is the representation matters. That is like, oh, that is something I can, oh, I can do that. I can try to do that, right? But let me also say, because I don't think it's said quite enough, especially in this world of Andre's flute album, that Big Boy is such an important part of Alcast to me. Because again, it's like, it's like the two sides of Atlanta. There's like the very down to earth side. And there's like the aspirational artistic side. And I think that's why Alcast means so much to us. And that's why so many of us really loved Big Boy just as much as if you're a real Alcast fan, you love Big Boy. And that's why I actually like to see Big Boy shout the daddy fat stecks. He had a lot of work that he did solo. He did work with artists in the electronic. I mean, like if anybody has ventured out into electronic music, it's actually been Big Boy. He's just left foot. He's just left foot. He's done a lot. And so I would ask anybody listening to this. And he was one of the first people, I mean, people forget when Janelle Monet, I first heard about her as a member of the Dungeon family. So, you know, like, I feel like he's also been a good steward and he's done features with artists who were up and coming. And killer Mike. And killer Mike. Killer Mike is like the second generation Dungeon family, I guess future would be the third generation. You know, like Dungeon family has had some some amazing careers launched out of that click and we should never, ever, uh, under estimate or under appreciate. Let me ask you how often how often should we not do it? Should we never, ever? Should we never, never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever? Not at all. That's your that. On the oak tree, I hope we feel like this forever, forever, forever, forever, forever, forever, forever, never seems that long until you're grown and notice that the day by day ruler can't be too wrong. The other thing that Andre does a lot in his versus that I really appreciate is he's got a very sort of like, why sort of like sense of like beginnings and endings. Let me explain that. One of my favorite, this might be, this might be my favorite outcast line of all time. It comes from elevators. He talks about running to that guy in the mall that he hasn't seen a long time. Yeah, you know, but he's standing there facial expression looking silly and at. And like he talks, he says, um, the line that he says, uh, sort of like this thing about the day by day ruler can't be too long. Yeah, he talks about when the record gets to, oh, it's not elevators. It's a Rosa Parks. When the record gets to skipping and slowing down, I hope you can still say them brothers had their crown, but until then, what's that fuss? Like he's very much talked about. There may come a time when there is no outcast or people aren't checking for outcasts. He comes back to that often almost as much as like two pock talked about dying or getting shot like two pie taught a lot about that. And and and Andre talked a lot about there, there may come a time when there's no more outcasts and I've always been telling us. Yeah, he was saying for a long time because we're gonna, we're gonna get into this more in a minute, but before, you know, but there's a lot going on in Andre's creative brain. And he is looking to do things that are interesting to him exclusively. That is his life's mission. And of course, he needs to feed his family, of course, he needs to keep shoes on his feet. He's got ambitions. He's got an element of him that enjoys fame, but there's also something that drives him, which is just purely exploration and creativity and improvisational creativity at that. And that to me is what why I'm so inspired, especially by his most recent moves, after giving up the greatest hip hop act of all time, according to many and certainly according to the like sales of speaker box in love below and go on to do what he wants to do with his days, you know, even though that he put success down and he left it there and everyone wonders why. Well, because he's driven by creativity. And listen, I appreciate that. I think that look, I listened to the the flute album over the weekend. A friend of mine was like, yo, this album going bang the spa. And I kind of agree. Yeah, I think he went to he's not that's not a joke to him. He's like, he gets it. He knows what this is. He's in on it. But let's say I will say this, if you really loved outcast and you are missing outcast and this obviously does nothing to make you not miss outcast. I mean, like I give props to I give props to Leslie Jones who did an extended riff at the Daily Show like, what are you doing? Like I totally get where that comes from. Not because we don't appreciate artistic change. It's just that if outcast is or was what it was for me, and presumably Leslie, just your favorite hip hop group. There is a part of you that that a that a rhymeless instrumental flute album. It only sort of exacerbates your like desire to like hear from him, you know what I mean? I remember 2007 outcast by that point had broken up and Andrei personally had like an amazing year of features. He's on the walk it out remix with, you know, DJ on keys and throw some D's on it. He's on that remix and crushed it. He's that was the year that he came out with that epic other flow he did about marriage on the International Players Anthem by UGK like 2000. It's like the second outcast broke up. He was like on he I think that's the year he did his verse on party would be on say, you know, like he was coming with all these amazing verse at diverse at diverse. And there's a part of us that misses that I don't want to belabor it because again, I think that we're unified in thinking that like an artist needs to go or an artist needs to go. But you you've heard this from me before. In my opinion, outcast is very much like bath punk like they came out with albums and they define genres and they defied genres. And then they broke up. And then you just had to just resign yourself to the fact that no, there's not going to be another outcast out there's not going to be another dead punk album. Oh, one of the members is coming out with an album. And it's all classical music. Okay. I hear that. And this is the narcissism of fandom though. Like it's totally narcissists. Totally selfish already. Like it's totally selfish. In other way, there are enough outcast albums that we can always go back and revisit those in fact hear it anyway. I'm going to suggest anybody who has never listened to Southern playlist. They kind of like music, you know, even though there's some lyrics in there that are probably not cool by today's standards. Go back and listen to a young Andre and young big boy. And you'll still hear a lot of what you appreciate in later outcast records. It's not that these groups outcast and dead punk don't leave a musical legacy. It's just that, you know, there is a part of us that would love to see the band get back together and just do one song for us. Yeah. All right. So, D'y'all, this is the first time you've heard this song this way broken up into those isolated chunks. How was that experience for you? Did it change? I got to say appreciation for this. Yes. Look, I always knew there was something different, different sonically happening with outcast and almost any other group that was out there. I think somewhere in the back of my brain, even though I didn't understand, you know, music creation back then, the way I do now, that there was probably some more live instrumentation. I didn't realize the live instrumentation. Yeah. Looking back now, you know, 20 years later, more than 20 years later, it does feel like, you know, that was one of the things that made their production special. It makes the text different. Yeah. in a hip hop song and a rap song of this era, especially, you know, it changes the nature of the musical bed itself is definitely different. How it was made was different. It's performed not only as it performed, but there are no loops or very few loops. The percussion, there are loops in the beat. But the rest of it is a human playing through for three minutes, which is significant 'cause it's the sound of a band playing and there's something amazing that I will defend as much as you will to the end to agree about sampling. And what loops you can feel, the feel of a loop, the feel of a loop is its own special thing. The feel of craft fork, metronomic precision, daft punk, but also the feeling of a band or performers performing is a special thing too. I think part of Alcast is that. Loved Alcast, I loved the way their music sounded different. They knew anything else, not just on the radio, but almost anything else in hip hop. So yeah, we support live musicians and we support from machines and we support interpolations. We love it all, a lot of ways to skin a cat or to make a song, which is why skin a cat? That's a strange expression. Please don't skin cats out there. Shout out to not skin a cat. So it's been 20 years since Ms. Jackson was released. Longer action. No, a little bit longer. Yeah, a little bit longer. Where does it stand for you in the hip hop pantheon? Quarter century later, look, I personally have a hard time comparing or like coming up with like a top 10, anything because ultimately we're comparing heart and I tell my kids all the time, like, not everything has to be a freaking tick-tock list. What about within the outcast catalog? But within the outcast catalog, look, I love this song. It means a lot to, you know, outcast fans are assisted, like by this point, you really know that these guys are maturing because they're coming with deeply personal material that is not, like you said earlier, it's not bragging, it's not descriptions of street life. And like, no, this is like, hey, this is what's going on with me today. So it's way up there. I mean your top three, what is your top three outcast? My outcast top three, man, I'm on the spot. Okay, here we go. Number one, gotta go with players ball that remix that you played earlier. It is absolutely one of my favorite songs of all time. I would say number two, I'm gonna say she lives in my lap just because it is a song that could not have been on Southern playlist of Cadillac music. Like to me, that song and all its wonderful atmospheric goodness is like a truly just an amazing song. Shout out to Rosario Dawson on it. It's just an amazing song. It's just a great song. She lives in my lap. It almost sounds like Prince. I love the story about, we don't have time to get in today, but after they did the reunion show at Coachella, Prince called Andre to like give him advice and basically rate the show. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, who gets calls from Prince like that? And then my number one is a very bizarre song, considering that I really love outcasts for their rapping, but it's the spoken word masterpiece. Spodiodi, dubillicious. But to this day, there are so many classic moments in that song from a masterful big boy, mine. The post office saying, call you back 'cause you had cloudy piss, 'cause you felt a drunk test. That's what you thought about. And then Andre's description of a night out that goes drastically wrong when a fight breaks out. And he says, one dude got his shirt off saying, now who want a hollywood coat? Which listening to, I always thought he said hollywood Cole, which I thought was the most bad nickname of all time, but he says hollywood court. Which someone reminded me. I was like, once he said hollywood court, I was like, oh, we used to call the projects in Atlanta. A lot of times they had names like court. So there was like Kimberly court. And hollywood court was a particularly bad one. I want to say it was over near Niskey Lake, which was really nice. Like that was where some black folks had houses on a lake. Like I briefly dated a girl over on, lived on Niskey Lake and we went out on her boat. But like, but some of the projects that were over there were like really rough. And hollywood court was one of them. To me, Spodiodi musically, it's been sampled so many times. They've done house remixes of it. But to me, like, and I think why to finish out this answer, my favorite album, standalone album by Alcast. I want to say it's a love below and speaker box. But it might be a Quimini. 'Cause a Quimini was more than ATLians. - I feel like it's a lot of people's favorites. - A Quimini was just a-- - It was masterful. And there's so many good songs on that album. So, you know, again, I hate comparing art to art. It's not what I do. I think it's better in sports than in the world of art. But yeah, I think Spodiodi takes the top spot. And I think a Quimini takes the top album spot. All right, man, help me in this thing. - All right, well, I've been luxury. I am luxury. I continue to be luxury. In spite of my illness, I am still producer, DJ, and songwriter, luxury. So I am. - And I am actor, writer, sometimes DJ. And forever, ATLian, Diallo Rill. - That's right. And this has been One Song. We will see you next time. Peace. (upbeat music) - Yeah, I like this. (upbeat music) - I'm sobbing this Jackson. - Woo! - Can't not do the woo. - No one can't do the woo. - No, no, you can't. You can't. - Not the woo. - When it's time to woo.