Our Favorite VMA Performances of All Time (with Jake Cornell)

welcome to pop pantheon the podcast where we completely overanalyze all of your favorite pop stars and then rank them in the official pop pantheon this is your host dj louis the 14th and today we have a couple quick announcements to make up top here the first of which is that we are currently soliciting mailbag questions from all of you so if you have any questions about pop music about pop pantheon about russ and i politics ai whatever's on your mind you can send them to pop pantheon pod at gmail.com we prefer voice notes but you can also send us written questions there and they might get answered on an upcoming mailbag episode of the show also exciting news we're going to be doing a live chat in our patreon chat during this sunday's vmas russ and i will be in there during the entire show so will all of your favorite uber engaged pop pantheon listeners and pop fans so it'll be a really fun place to hang out while we're watching this show that is shaping up to be pretty well boring so far but we're hoping for some good additions to the lineup and afterwards russ and i are going to be trying to go live on patreon to share our reactions to the show this is going to be a new thing so bear with us through any potential technical glitches but it's going to be fun so if you want to be part of that and you're not already subscribed to patreon you can do that by clicking the subscribe button to patreon you can subscribe at patreon.com slash pop pantheon the last thing i'm going to plug is that gorgeous gorgeous halloween is just been announced and will be on october 30th at the sultan room in bushwick we're doing a full venue takeover there's going to be drag queen karaoke there's going to be costume contests it's going to be really fun and it's going to sell out really quickly so grab tickets for that in the show notes of this episode or by going to gorgeous gorgeous party on instagram and i'm going to end all of my housekeeping there i am here with you guys i am here with producer of the show russ martin russ hello hi louis it is great to be here okay and we also have a really special guest in the house it's comedian jake cornell jake hello welcome to the show hi i'm really honored to be here really couldn't be more excited now jake i want to settle a score before we get into this and it's related to this hat that i'm putting on right now oh i'm in pain oh my god the pcd merch for the tour that never was now the reason that i'm putting this on is not to gloat or threaten you or to say that i'm holding your item hostage here it is to tell you that it was not me who committed the act of stealing but our mutual friend lindsey weber is to blame okay here's the thing is that no one stole it i forgot it at the beach and then lindsey instead of texting me that i left it gave it to you and the truth of the matter is i'm not going to matter is i medically need the hat back no and i want you to have the hat back and frankly i didn't need it that bad that's the thing it's like what was really annoying me about the not the act not that you were accusing me of anything but that anybody would have the impression that i stole this pcd merch from you is the idea that like i just saw it sitting there and i was like i can't live without this so i'm willing to rob jay cornell i didn't think for a second yes but really lindsey was just like shoving it in my bag and i said okay fine and i just kind of walked away with it was that like the best use of my judgment maybe not maybe i should have insisted and said hey you need to get this back to jake but i just wanted to make sure that we you know there was no i don't want to enter this chat there's no anything between us there's absolutely no beef and there was never beef because the only beef was between me and myself because i was so angry that i had forgotten it because i wore it there because i was like there are only like a few places where the pcd forever trucker had that is a von dutch ripoff that is exists for the tour that never was where the openers were supposed to be and i was like to be lil mama and maya yeah lil kim lil kim and maya now that's a big distinction i conflated them in my defense i was recently at a liberty game with lil mama so i've had run-ins with both recently two equally important female rappers in history i mean they've both done a lot of incredible work that's true but to have merch of a tour that never happened is like really exciting and i used to not be a hat person but i've grown my hair out and now i kind of need hats because sometimes i need to leave the house before i shower and it's like you kind of have to cover up the situation because the bedhead can be crazy and when you're bald you always got to put shit on your head so i really understand totally it kind of reminds me of my sky ferrero masochism t-shirt yeah exactly it's like from a different timeline that didn't happen the last thing i'll say on the hat is that friend of the pod omri roland did offer me his firstborn to give him the hat and i declined because i said that's not mine to give yeah and i really appreciate that yeah i will say speaking of limited i tend to fidget when i do podcasts especially when they're on the computer and like just play with things on the table but because i don't want audio to pick up i just realized the thing i'm fidgeting with is the song i caught in the air from the charlie xcx concert like that i just looked down as we were talking about this and i realized like that is what i'm fidgeting with is this charlie xcx song it actually looks really fun to play with and also like it probably wouldn't fit me personally so all i could do was use it as like a sim yeah i mean it's teeny tiny that's a great catch i'm glad we've plugged so much merch for so many artists today yeah anyway we're here for a really exciting episode we're talking about the vmas and we're going to be talking particularly about our favorite vma performances russ has pitched me on this episode a lot of times over the years and i've kind of like hemmed and hawed about it but i'm actually so excited that we did this because going back through all of these performances over time was so much fun and actually made this assignment like much harder than i was expecting it was going to be because i think we all have this thing where it's like there's certain ones that stand out in our minds britney with the python britney and madonna kissing madonna and the wedding dress that like stand out and when you think about the vmas you think about these few things but you go one layer deeper you go two layers deeper and i started to have so many memories of so many amazing performances and ended up with like a long list of like 15 of these so jake tell me what was it like preparing for this and like what what did you think of the assignment i loved the assignment i similarly felt well one it was really fun because last night i was hanging out with mutual friends of ours andrew spina and bill like i was hanging out with them and we did gig i'm music video night specifically with like i was looking for my fifth slot i kind of had i was able to fill four really easily and then my fifth slot i was kind of overwhelmed by so we watched a lot and then we kind of it was a really fun debate about like what is like the rubric by which you are judging vma performances how much do you weigh your own personal taste versus what you think is like the most like influential vma performances it was a very fun assignment and process to think through and there was like kind of this interesting challenge i don't know if you guys felt this way of like negotiating like not wanting us to all have the same five so then feeling this need to go esoteric but then also being like but the ones that are hits are hits for a fucking reason absolutely it was interesting to navigate that as well to pull back the curtain a little bit louie and i have cheated and we know each other's lists okay so for the most part we know 90 of each other's lists so that we don't have complete crossover we we don't have a complete crossover we don't have a complete crossover did a gut check to see are we gonna have the same top five exactly could that be a really boring episode it is not going to be exactly that but there were some that i was just like i'm sorry we're gonna have to cross over because like i can't have a list that doesn't include this one 100 your point about like what's iconic and what are your favorites are interesting like did you come up with some sort of rubric to distinguish that i would say a factor i added in that would i maybe three is like lore around them or like for example like did they kind of change how the vmas were viewed or like did they change the format of a vma performance and i think i weighted that heavier that made me like a performance more if i felt that that was part of what the performance had done i guess you could say and there was a little bit of personal bias as well of like what affected my life which obviously this is a list of my favorites so that yeah it's weighted well as well so yeah i guess those were like the two outside of just like the top five but i think just like viewing art as art and being like what do i like you know totally totally russ what about you when you were making your list what were you thinking about how are you weighing you know like one thing that i wanted to throw out to the peanut gallery is like my grand theory that the vmas have been washed for so long at this point that it's like even when i see good performances from recent years and to your point about the context jake like i'm still like yeah but it's existing in a context that makes it less iconic somehow to me like russ thought up to me at one point like a certain performance from recent years that he thought was like really good and even like potentially like hung with the best of them and i watched it today and i was like i do like this performance but it doesn't hit the rubric of vma classic to me because vma is has to be more than just the performance it's like the reaction it's the provocative nature of it it's the originality of it it's how it gets people to gasp and clutch their pearls in a certain way and it can start to feel empty when the show is devoid of context in some ways it feels like a simulacrum of the past and also now that all celebrities are able to put their entire image online at all times and curate them it's like the vmas are no longer a tool by which artists are making a statement you used to not see videos of like every artist's tour right so like if you didn't go see a tour like you wouldn't see like what the tate mccray tour looked like so like the vmas was like the moment where tate mccray got to show you like how she performs sports car live that was part of what the vmas were for where now i've seen like the full tour of every artist i'm interested in you know like i haven't seen zara larson's tour i know all of the beats of the performance and i'm thankful for it But if this was 15 years ago, I wouldn't have known about Zara and the bringing people up on stage and the Lush Life dance until it happened on the VMAs. Do you know what I mean? Totally. There's a power there that doesn't exist that has deflated it a little bit. Absolutely. That's such a good point. It used to be the place where you got access to these performers. Yes. And now we don't have that. Russ, what were you thinking about with your list? Well, bringing that up, even in the heyday, though, in the heyday of the VMAs, we also had the American Music Awards were big. The Billboard Music Awards were big. There was musical performances sometimes at the MTV Movie Awards. There was a whole ecosystem of live televised performances that we have much less of now. And the VMAs stood out in the same way that the Grammys stand out. And I sort of think of VMAs and Grammys as polar opposites of televised performance, sort of as the two genders, if you will. One is this staid, park and bark, orchestra-backed, serious version of the thing that you do. And the other is the most iconoclastic, shocking for the purpose of being shocking, take-your-clothes-off sort of a shenanza. New favorite word just dropped. Absolutely a shenanza. I've just been saying stuff lately. I don't know. Here we are, where we stand. I think that iconoclastic. I think that iconoclasm is really important for these performances because it's not vocals, for example. Some of the performances that I think are great from VMA history don't include a microphone. So it's not necessarily what you would value in a performance that you went to see even live or that you saw on another television program. So there's a different texture to it that had to do with the VMAs place and MTVs place in youth culture specifically that doesn't exist. Now the VMAs are on CBS, which is a network for the olds, if there ever was one. That is so crazy. It definitely reflects the ever-changing lack of vitality that the VMAs currently have in the cultural landscape that they are just being subsumed into becoming another award show on a major network with no real sense of identity. And frankly, going back through these performances, it really just reminded me of what a hub the VMAs used to be. It used to be genuinely so exciting. And I think we. We're all around the same age, just lived through an era where MTV really was like the place that we gathered around popular music and culture. And it was like where things happened. And like for a long period of time, it felt like every year at the VMAs, like things were happening that were truly memorable and have gone on to define pop culture up until the present day. And I would argue that like not really since Miley Cyrus and the foam finger has something happened at the VMAs that has truly sparked like debate. Culture like we can argue whether that performance is actually like good or bad on its own merits, but it's the last thing that did with the VMAs were really built to do, which was to like shock the world and create like an iconoclastic youth culture moment that like shook the table and made everybody talk. You know what I mean? And that goes back to Madonna rolling on the stage in the wedding dress. I feel like you can kind of like bookend the VMAs relevance based on those two performances in a way. Both kind of. And they had similar things going on. There was sort of like an in-your-face provocateurism to them. That kind of ended at that point when monoculture also was winding down and MTV was winding down as anything vital. So anything else we want to throw out there, Russ, before we get into the actual list making? Yeah, I would love to hear from Jake any outfits, any stunts, any scandals from VMA history? Because VMAs, I think, are not just about performances. They're also about the stuff that happens. Do you have favorite moments from VMA history that weren't stage performances? Courtney crashing the Kurt Loder-Madonna interview is. I mean, that's so gold standard. Yes, it is. The moment of Madonna tracking the compact as it goes over her head. For the listener, I'm like miming it. But like, that to me is so iconic. Jake, thanks for coming on the show. That is the correct answer. Yeah, literally. I was going to say. I mean, that is like the answer. Yeah, Courtney Love is in desperate need of attention right now. Yeah. Yes. I would like to posit Fiona Apple, the world is bullshit. Oh, yes. I remember watching that live and just being like, now that's a fucking diva. And also Diana Ross jiggling Lil' Kim's tit. That would be number two to me is going to be Diana Ross jiggling Kim's tit. I was quite young when that happened. And I remember seeing Lil' Kim in that outfit and like could not believe that that was like allowed on TV. I was like, you can put a boob out like that? Because like, it's like something like covering the nipple makes it okay is like societally true, but there's actually no logic to it. So as a child, I was like, I don't understand. Yeah. You know, part of the VMAs raised on Detra that's also been ruined by our contemporary culture is that like, we used to be able to be shocked. And I feel like given like who the president of the United States is and like what we all are imbibing all day on social media and everything, like, it's just like not that easy to shock the world anymore. Like we were more innocent as a people. So like seeing something like that truly blew our minds. Sorry, to that end, we have to say Meat Dress. Oh, Meat Dress for sure. Meat Dress was so iconic. I think Meat Dress was the most shocking. Most shocking to me ever. Yeah. Meat Dress. And I mean, we'll talk, we'll probably talk about this at some point, but obviously Madonna and Britney kissing also scandalized me. I mean, that was like, I was like, holy shit. Yeah. I'm going to go ahead and tell without spoiling anything. You've already mentioned two of my five. You've already gone through two of my five videos. I want to know if you're about to shake the table with something that I've been debating over text with Louie. Don't spoil it. I'm so curious about this list. Lou, what else do you have to say? I was just going to say Macy Gray announcing her album on her dress. Actually, the entire 2001. Ceremony is really interesting to me because it happened five days before 9-11. So it's like this kind of like capsule of a moment. Isn't the release date of Macy Gray's album like 9-11? No, it's September 18th, but the VMAs were on September 6th. So it was like, it's this weird moment of like watching the world before like the world changed forever. And then the other, the last one I just think like really feels like pretty pertinent is Kanye and Taylor. Obviously that event kind of like changed the course of pop history forever till the present day. Totally. It is funny because like my instinct is to kind of roll the eyes on that because it was talked about for so long. Yeah. But when you actually do think about the influence of Taylor's career now. Yeah. That was like Gwyneth Paltrow sliding doors. A hundred percent. Our entire pop culture, like the Cardassian. I mean, there's so many things you can trace back to that particular moment. It's like actually kind of crazy. But yeah, there were so many. I mean, like when I was looking at lists of the moments, like, like Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie making out, it was just every year, like shit was happening. It's like such a house lawn thing. Cause like, I'm like, what? Like now it's like, nothing happens on these things. Oh, fucking Rose McGowan's dress with Marilyn Manson. Oh yeah. That was iconic. That was so good. Yeah. All right. So there is 42 years of VMA performances and we are not trying to holistically go through each of those. We are looking at this list making process as a matter of personal taste. We have in broad strokes, laid out some of the things that we are each looking for. I put together over 30 on a playlist and we have gone through some of those. Shall we get into our number fives? Yeah. Okay. So I'm actually panicking cause I didn't rank mine. Rank them live. Okay. Russ, why don't you jump in and go first? Okay. I am going to start off with a woman. A woman who has already been mentioned. One of my favorite pop stars of all time, Lil' Kim. So Lil' Kim featuring Missy Elliott, Da Brat, Left Eye, and Angie Martinez. Not Tonight, the performance of the Ladies Night remix. Let me see you do the bank head. Come on MTV. It's time to get it. I got all my sisters with me. Come on. It's night time. And I'm on this time. This is ladies night. Oh, what a night. Oh, what a night. I was thinking about how to get hip hop into this list. I think that there has been a lot of really strong hip hop moments. I thought about maybe doing the Aerosmith Run DMC, which is a really big moment for hip hop in the development as a genre that is at the center of American popular culture. But I am for the girl. And it's got to be Lil' Kim for me, the performance. Just like she looks so fucking fierce. Left Eye comes out on a couch held up by men in a high pony. She has a chain between her breasts, like linking her nipples together. Da Brat is full butch and comes out dressed as a male gladiator in a chariot. The whole thing is incredibly directed. It's this like early high point for female rap. I love them all together. It's like, I don't know. It's such an important moment for women in the genre coming together and then being celebrated for iconography of like African futurism, which was a huge part of the 90s. Missy Elliott arrives via the audience. The whole thing is just full of joy. And I think that every VMA performance should be above all else, like really fun. And this performance is so dynamic and so much. fun, like colorful and shiny. and exciting and cool and divalicious great performance and i knew you were gonna pick this one because this is so rust-coated beyond belief but like i'm really glad that that you put that there and also highlighted i think the central role that hip-hop played in mtv's story because i think that that's something that gets almost like underrated when we look back especially at our era of mtv we're constantly reminded of kind of like the big white faces that seem to define the channel at that time britney christina n-sync backstreet boys like those are the marquee names that get brought up a lot but truly simultaneously and during that like there was so much hip-hop that was such a big part of the trl era of mtv i mean i guess this is maybe just before the trl era actually but like i think a lot of you know our generation grew up as one of the first you know truly indoctrinated with hip-hop as part of pop music and i think mtv really did play a pretty key role in that crossover and songs like this obviously were part of that and obviously some of the most innovative pop music was coming out of that genre space so that's a great performance jake what do you got at number five okay so you could argue that i'm cheating with my number five but i would defend my stance because my number five is technically four vma performances i know what it is however it's the 2016 rihanna four-part mtv performance yeah amazing oh no this is eligible okay great i thought you were going with like some sort of doritos stage or something no you're good no 2016 rihanna was not like the host but did this weird thing where she performed four different multiple song like medleys throughout the course of the night and it was 2016 so it was like prime auntie era i think rihanna has not gone down in coolness since auntie like she is still loved so much but like the shift in rock and robin i'm using her legal name the shift in the perception of what like culture thought of her like pre and post auntie is so night and day she went from being this kind of like in my circles i felt like and in like the pop culture that i was reading and consuming this like high volume in terms of like the amount of music like she put on an album every year and it was like catchy and for the masses but no one thought of her as like this great musician like i feel like she it did not come with like respect it was like not that she was in the kia asylum by any means but she wasn't treated with any sort of reverence as though she was an particularly incredible vocalist dancer or songwriter and then in one album she kind of proved that she was all those things and she made an album that was interesting and unique and then i think these four performances are so interesting because i'm looking at the list of them now so like in the just to quickly go through them the opening quarter was a mash-up of don't stop the music only girl in the world we found love and where have you been which to me is like kind of showing the songs that were kind of massively consuming very popular but maybe not respected as much and but now in this new light we're seeing them being like wait she's kind of fucking incredible then we get the rude boy what's my name work mashup which is getting close to this and then i think the best of the four for me that needed me pour it up bitch better have my money to me that's when she changed everything and then she finished with stay diamonds and love on the brain which i just think it was a cool use of the vma is to kind of almost celebrate this reclamation of her public persona almost yeah you know it's such a good pick too because i think it summarizes beyond just kind of like the interesting crossover rihanna did between sort of like her like more lowbrow perceptions in her early career lowbrow to high brow is that is the exact language i was grasping for that entire time so thank you of course but also i think one of the things that defines rihanna and that we will always remember her for is that she has like fluid versatility with genre like she was somebody that could like effectively evince so many different types of music with equal cool factor which is like extremely difficult and so few pop stars can really do that and when you look across these various performances we have like an expression of her dance pop era we have expressions of her caribbean music we have expressions of her hip-hop oriented music and then her ballads and we can sort of like see how fully effective she has been in her music and i think that's kind of the thing that's kind of the thing that all of those modes which in some ways i think as a musician is her legacy as a pop diva maybe there's been no other pop star that is as fluidly without ever seeming craven or that she was reaching outside of her like purview been able to be so many different things across her musical career yeah and there was what's also interesting is that they're not really like i'm looking at them now and i'm kind of thinking about my memories of like when rihanna was really putting out music and maybe i'm wrong here but it's not the way artists often do it when they're where they'll kind of come forward and be like i'm doing this this album like this is my caribbean album you know it's like it wasn't like loud or rated r like she never was doing that's the other thing about rihanna is that rihanna has never seemed cloying like she's the least cloying pop star of all time she has always seemed unbothered she just was like i'm rihanna and y'all love it and we were like we do and even though she does have this huge swath of genre she moves across it was never presented as like this is what i'm doing i'm doing this i'm doing this i'm doing this i'm doing this genre it really is throughout the whole arc 100 and she had also evolved so much as a performer at this point i think like rihanna has someone that was someone that like people kind of dinged a little bit earlier in her career for not being a totally dynamic on stage presence and by the time she got to this point i mean what was so cool about her in these performances for me is that she's able to translate her swag into like a dominating stage presence without needing to be beyonce or needing to do like beyonce performed at this award show too and did an entire medley from lemonade in a way that only beyonce obviously could where it's just like this virtuosic like mind-blowing thing that's like totally superhuman but when rihanna was so good at it in this period was like without like trying to be something she was not she just learned how to kind of command in her very like specific as you said kind of like i don't give a fuck unbothered rihanna way that was like so particular to her and then these are some of the best expressions of that on stage i think totally okay so for my number five i've tried to fight so much but with this i just like couldn't fight my biases and like a lot of my performances that i picked land in the band of like things that were just so meaningful and iconic to me so like there were so many things i cycled through and like i knew about in retrospect or that i loved like looking back like prince's 1991 performance of get off where he shows his ass it's like so amazing obviously nirvana performing lithium in 1992 is like so iconic but like they don't have like deep personal resonance for me like the five that i chose so the one that i chose at number five kind of in standing with russ's treatise on hip-hop is missy elliott nelly furtado ludacris timberland and trina performing get your freak on and one minute man in 2001 now missy elliott obviously one of the greatest like show people in like modern pop history like nobody knows how to like pull together an entire like musical world quite like missy elliott does from like the adventurousness of the production to the videos to the dancing to her look i mean she is just like one of pop's great image makers i would say of the 21st century i mean get your freak on the video and you know one thing i want to talk about with the vmas is like the interplay between the performances and the videos used to be such an important part of these things like whether you were just imitating the video or drawing on aspects of the video missy elliott's get your freak on video is its own amazing dave meyer's creation but she recreates a moment from the video where she like descends holding on to a chandelier from the top of the radio city music hall but like what makes this performance so quintessentially vmas to me is it's just like shock after shock after shock like you first think it's just missy elliott and timberland performing get your freak on which would be enough i mean get your freak on is a crazy enough song on its own and they're dynamic enough on their own but then all of a sudden out comes nelly furtado of all people to do her like quacky remix but say how she comes out loose what does she come out of she comes out of a thing there's a statue of missy elliott's face on stage it's giant it's absolutely massive and a tongue pops out and then the tongue is a slide and nelly furtado and this is nelly furtado pre like promiscuous girl say like this is like still like quirky freak this is whoa nelly yeah this is whoa nelly nelly furtado so that's one thing so you're shocked by that so i'm already like whoa this is so fun because that's what vma's performances used to be like like you'd be like what's coming next you know what i mean like if the madonna christina britney thing is like which also included missy elliott is like the ultimate example of this and then all of a sudden ludicrous comes out and they're doing one minute man and they're wrapping that and then trina comes out and they're doing that and like then they switch into like this other thing like it just was like this non-stop cavalcade of things like where you're just like whoa whoa whoa and then it ends and missy's dedicating the performance to alia who had died like three weeks earlier so it just like again in talking about context jake like it's the performance itself it's the music in the performance it's the music's role in mtv it's the artist's role in pop culture it's the music's role and then it's like the broader context of like what this can speak to in this monocultural way that it just never could in these days about like serving as a tribute to this big thing that happened so it just like encapsulated a great moment of mtv incredible performers at the peak of their game and then all of the context that the vmas could bring into being and the shock factor that kind of like whoa whoa whoa whoa moment that i think is kind of quintessential to vma performances that are great Okay, Russ, back at you. Okay. I had to put this somewhere, and it is going to end up in my number four position. One of the greats of all time, Lady Gaga's Paparazzi. So this performance was a star-making moment. It was a moment in which Lady Gaga leveled up on the national stage. And the VMAs used to provide a platform for star-making moments. The show doesn't reach enough people or have enough impact to do what this did for Gaga. This song had only been out for two months. It's during this initial rise. She's definitely had some success. Just dance is big. She's had poker face. But this is the moment, in my estimation, when Lady Gaga becomes a pop superstar. She showcases in all of her oddities exactly who she is and who she's going to be at least until the mid-2010s, this initial 1.0 version of Gaga, who is, the mic's on. Big vocals. But nobody notices it because there is a lot else, including her kind of having a suicide at the end. So by the end of this, she is dripping in what is, upon reflection, kind of realistic blood. Like, it's pretty good movie magic blood. It isn't campy blood. It's not silly, like, bright, shiny, glittery red, apple red blood. It's, like, real gory. We're a few weeks away from Halloween blood. And the best part of this performance, maybe, is the audience reactions from the celebrities who are just freaked out by whatever this is. And she shook the table. That's what you are supposed to do. She shook the table of pop music. And it's up there with the grades to me. I want to jump in because I also put this at number four. This is one where I couldn't resist overlapping with you, Russ. I thought about, like, trying not to put this on. Because I was like, I don't want to, like, have too much overlap. But I just couldn't resist it. I'm just like, this is without question, like, everything the VMAs are supposed to be. And what I love about it, too, is that, like, Lady Gaga is the last, like, generation of monocultural pop star who got to study the VMAs and then actually execute what they're good at before MTV and monoculture died. Like, she was able to take that, everything Madonna had done, everything Britney had done, everything about the past performances that was so iconic, resynthesize it through her very unique, one-of-a-kind performance. Because she couldn't reshock by doing exactly what those two had done. She found a way to do it that was completely singular and use it to become a superstar. Which is, like, what the greats on this show have done. What the great performances from Madonna rolling around in that wedding dress on Forward have been able to do with this show is use it to make them stars. And she did it with a song that is a commentary on becoming a star and did the performance on the commentary of being a star. And I just love it. As you said, Russ, like, she got everybody talking. And that was what made the VMAs so much fun in a way that just, like, no matter how good the performances can be technically in the years that come after them, like, they just don't feel as iconic to me because they don't have that element of star making and, like, getting everybody talking about them. And that was what made them so fun. I mean, I'm going to tell you guys right now. It's my number one. And I knew that it would be on all of our lists. Like, I knew it would be on all five of us. I knew that. It is my number one. In the way that you guys couldn't not put it on the list, I was just like, there's no world where this isn't my number one. It is by, I'm not joking, hundreds of views, my most rewatched, probably Gaga live performance and VMA performance. Like, this was the thing that made me a Gaga stan. I still return to it to watch it. I think not to be so, like, film analysis, but I think it's part of it is the fact that it is so fundamentally not for the male gaze. Right. It is weird. You're dancing. She is wearing weird shit on her head. She is bleeding from her fucking chest. I feel like with this performance, I feel like gay kids all over the world were like, this is for me. Like, I'm not supposed to be attracted to this woman. She's not trying to tell me that I should want to fuck her. She's telling me, like, I'm your fucking freak mom. Like, I feel like that is, like, exactly the moment. Someone's riding a dirt bike by my house. It's like they hear that I'm talking to, like, much against the straight culture and they're, like, shitting on my life. Like, specifically, like, I remember feeling that way. Like, not necessarily with that language, but being like, this is for me. The way that, like, the choreography, like, to you said, like, with them cutting to, like, it might be Diddy. I don't remember. But there's, like, someone who's, like, watching it just so deeply, like, they're being like, what the fuck is this? Because it was for the audience for that kind of performance was, like, largely not in that room. And I think that that was really cool. And it is that it set the temperature. It set the temperature for Gaga's entire trajectory. Like, I think her, the reception, not that I think, like, I think she was already on that path. But I'd like to think that the reception to that was when Gaga was like, I know where I'm going. Like, I know, yeah. She became Lady Gaga on, in that stage performance. Like, we became Little Monsters and she became, and, like, that. And she became her. And that is, like, and I almost feel like that is, like, the genesis of Fame Monster is, like, oh, now that I do it. I get it. I'm going to do, like, a six-song, like, redux of, like, the album we're on to, like, crystallize it. And then to bookend it, the meat dress is the next year. And when she wins Video of the Year for Bad Romance, she announces, speaking of the queer iconicity of Lady Gaga, she announces Born This Way and sings it for the first time in the meat dress. Yeah, because, like, I mean, I remember, like, I know, like, all, do you remember, like, when, like, right after this performance, like, when those, all those, like, the photographs. Those shoes that dropped, like, in the Fame Monster era that we were, like, looking at on Oh No They Didn't. Like, trying to, like, get, like, listen, listening to Monster, listening to Dance in the Dark. Like, that, oh, take me back, take me back, take me back. It was the best. It was, it was truly amazing. It was an incredible time. Watching superstars come into form, as the VMAs used to be a venue for, was just, like, it's, it's such an amazing thing to, to see. I mean, maybe Coachella plays this role sometimes, like, for someone like Sabrina Carpenter in her recent years. But, like, I don't think the VMAs are playing host to this. These kind of viral clips of festivals are, like, the equivalent of, like, what the VMAs used to do. That's a really good point. That's actually so interesting. Because it just happened with Slater, too. And Audrey Hobert. It is kind of like the festival is the new VMA. That's really interesting. Yeah, it's true. It's, like, the place where all of a sudden we watch people come into form. And that used to be what was exciting about the VMAs. But, Jake, you got to give us your number four pick. Okay. So, this is one of the most iconic VMA performances of all time. The only reason it's my number four is because I'm obsessed. It's, like, cultural impact and, like, the narrative around it. But it is, like, in terms of VMAs, it's not this big, bombastic, high. It's Madonna like a virgin. Like you said, it kicked it off. Do I watch it all the time? No, because it's not this, like, it's the opposite of Gaga paparazzi. Like, there's no special effects. There's, like, three people on stage. But what it did, like, I, like every other gig I have, listen to Yossi Salek's 20-hour Madonna podcast. I do understand the full context. And, like, I have deep appreciation for it. So, that is my number four. Yeah, I'm really glad this is here. Because, really, it's kind of incredible to think that in, like, 1984, before this show had any identity, she basically defined it. And then that was what it was. Like, that was the standard bearing thing from that point forward. Like, it just speaks to her power and visionary nature as a performer. And I don't know that she even knew what she was doing. And, in fact, like, I devote many pages of my forthcoming book to this performance. And it's not clear from what I was learning in my research that she was even that, like, cognizant of what she was inventing. And some of it was a mistake, like the rolling on the floor and all that kind of stuff. But it still is such a great expression of what this show could do. Because it's, I think, similarly to the Gaga performance. And this is where I think this performance gets misconstrued a little bit. I think this is also not for the male gaze. Like, people were so worried about slut-shaming her. But the whole thing about Madonna's kind of sexual provocations that I find so interesting is that, like, they're provocations by nature. They're not actually meant to be, like, sexy, like, I'm trying to entice you, man. Or most of the time, they're not. They're meant to kind of, like, throw into your face ideas of female sexual agency and why it upsets people that watch it and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. And when I watch that performance and then reading all the reactions about her being a slut, I'm like, wow, this went over everybody. It got the job done. I mean, it made her a superstar and it's lived on in infamy. But it's just funny how people frame that performance as, like, being slutty. And it's not slutty to me. If Lady Gaga was ignoring the male gaze, Madonna would. Madonna was antagonizing it. Exactly. That's a great way to put it. And the performance is just such an incredible expression of what she does well. And, like, to see her so young being able to do that is just, like, it speaks to why she's the queen of pop without question. Yeah. I'm really glad you chose that. Going back to it, it was just so clear how compelling. Camera loves her. And she has this absolute commitment. Like, she is out there by herself, but she is going for. broke, and she seems fearless even when things go wrong despite the fact that i think she's like shitting her wedding dress in this moment the talent has nothing to do with singing or dancing the talent that madonna has is being fucking madonna and that's like maybe the first time that that is the thing to the listener when you watch this you have to like take a minute before you watch it to really put your heads your mindset of like this was madonna before she was madonna so people were like who is this bitch yes and it's beginning of peak of aids so all of this sexual provocateurism is happening in the context of a lot of panic related to sex so i think that that's always like an important context to hold madonna's sexual provocations in the 80s and the rest of the show is male rock bands yes right i didn't put a lot of early performances on the playlist but i went back and read all of them and like 80 percent of the vmas you can't see them in the video but i think that's a good thing to do because it's like for the first 10 years were rock dudes and to that point that is even further evidence of how much this performance fucking changed this show yeah okay russ what do you have at number three controversially i have chosen michael jackson i mean what can we say this performance is fucking iconic it's so good the performance in question is the 1995 medley that michael jackson does is a tour de force of everything that made live performances for michael jackson incredible everything comes together it has movement it has costumes it has lighting he is one of the most iconic performers of all time because he understands that standing and being a silhouette is more powerful than standing on stage and letting them actually see you sweat there are incredible shapes here there's dramatic pause we have lost the art of dramatic pause he knows how to stand and bask in the applause mid-performance there's contrasting colors like the red glove against the black suits you know great singing as discussed not like necessarily the biggest hallmark of vmas and this is one of the first that i noticed mj is like not singing through a whole bunch of this he holds his mic like 30 seconds in the first 10 minutes which is like a speed dash medley of all of his biggest hits yeah i kept thinking watching that like all of those beyonce mega performances are built off of this model you know what i mean like this sort of like bang through one minute of each song mashup thing that she ended up perfecting so much in these latter vma performances are completely drawn from that moment yeah and there is the obviously the vanguard award itself is named after michael jackson is it still no so they did rebrand it around the time it became a moon person okay the moon person during that moment but he was the first recipient and that was that was the first one right that was his that performance was the first time that they gave the award and did the sort of like capstone performance thing that's my recollection yeah you know what russ i really considered putting this on and if you hadn't i would have i mean like what can we say he just invented so much of what we think of as like modern pop performance and in 1995 he was still fucking slaying it down he looks like a young white man during the performance it's a very interesting evolution of his uh cosmetic surgery journey and there's so much to be kind of freaked out about michael jackson at that phase but like it's just unquestionable the entire dangerous section is just like so i mean it's just masterful choreography it's just incredible okay jake what you got at number three number three i have the britney christina madonna missy yeah thank god i think it's like again it's like i promise i have a more esoteric one at my number two but kind of it's actually laughable that i call it doesn't need to get esoteric this is obviously should be these are great picks well and it's interesting because it's like obviously like you kind of like can't go four months without seeing that britney madonna kiss like as a gay guy in new york like you will just like encounter that somehow if you don't it'll play on the back of your eyelids at some point but like watching the full performance it's fucking awesome yeah like you're seeing so much of like pop happen like the way that like you're just watching like like britney's dance dancing christina's belting like it's just it's so many things are happening it's all there's something so like deeply darkly poetic about knowing what is going to happen with all of these women and that they're singing hollywood like there's something so layered about it and but it's still entertaining to watch and like to like the younger listener you cannot imagine how big of a deal it was when britney and madonna kiss no it was world stop it was world stop it was on the news like i saw it on the news with my grandparents it was literally the cover of all of the papers the next day i have strong recollections of newspaper covers with the kiss yes oh my god it was the hugest deal and also we weren't very comfortable with displays of i mean we can talk about the complex nature of the queer baiting that's going on in this performance but for better and worse we were not used to seeing on national television to women kissing i would say that queerness was so taboo at that time that there was no such thing as queer baiting right a hundred percent i think it is impossible to queer bait when queerness is that reviled like you cannot call that queer baiting queerness has to have some sort of cultural cachet in the mass media to call it queer baiting and like at the time it was like well if they kissed and they must like girls a little like it was like so i mean it more i mean it more in the context of like madonna knew how explosive it was going to be to see these two the two of the three of them technically it's tactical it's tactical oh she was it was it's absolutely tactical and i i said to russ yesterday on text message i was like this isn't my favorite vma performance of all time but i think it is without question the most iconic vma performance of all time because it gets everything done that a vma performance should do in the sense that like first of all it's homaging the original vma performance it starts with britney and christina wedding thing so you're linking the history together it serves as a torch passing between i would argue the two most iconic vmas performers of all time in madonna and britney and you have all the context that is surrounding you have the shock factor in the kiss you have all the context that's surrounding it the reactions from the audience how explosive it was you have britney and justin you have britney and christina's rivalry playing out on stage it cuts to justin it cuts to justin after the kiss and that's after they broke up but yeah that's after they broke up you have the you have christina being ignored which is its own sort of interesting like facet of the hierarchy of new pop girlies it was like a gay guy fun fact to be like did you know christina also kissed madonna like it was like people didn't know people no people did not know you really didn't know in my mind there's like 12 year olds listening to this and i'm like you don't understand yeah this was before youtube so you couldn't go back and watch it like they were playing clips of it on the news because that was the only way to see it was if katie correct showed you like it's fucking crazy i remember where i was sitting me too like i remember sitting on the edge of my parents bed and i was like fucking my mind was blown i was like oh my god i can again it speaks to a kind of adorable naivete in like our culture like i don't know that a what was i at that time 15 year old would be shocked by something like that in this day and age whatever the equivalent thing would be we're just so inundated with shocking images all the time that i think that that zaps some of the power that this would have had you know what i mean they would literally have to like not to be crude like to shock a 15 year old today the way they would literally have to fist each other like yeah they would have to fist each other i'm not joking i don't even know if that would shock them as much as that shocked us like we were actually naifs like we were so innocent it was crazy it was crazy right and then you have that rolling thing where like all of a sudden then it's a missy elliot performance which i think is so quintessentially vmas like it just literally like just all of a sudden we're doing missy elliot like it is everything a vma's performance should be let me quickly hit you with three cut lines the red eye which is inside the chicago tribune lip sync the daily record tongue in cheek and the daily star lesba friends lip sync is breathtaking that's breathtaking speaking of lip sync though i was actually thinking about the like lack of microphones being on on some of these performances or even in the frame and i do think that also speaks to the connection to the music video i mean these were expressions of music videos which are iconically lip synced so i think that that in some ways creates a permission structure to make sort of live little music videos on stage in a way i would yeah i would say next to the macy's thanksgiving day parade vmas is the most lip sync forgiving like event a hundred percent okay so at my number three i picked another jackson i picked janet jackson's performance of that's the way love goes and if at the 1993 sarah ceremony let me tell you something there's nobody more breathtaking than Janet Jackson in this particular period from the abs to the face card and what I love about this performance beyond the fact that these are two of the greatest pop songs of all time to me with honestly some of the best choreography ever executed in music videos then reinstated in this stage performance what I love about this performance is its simplicity which is different than I would say from a lot of these other performances that I've picked which are all about kind of the spectacle this has spectacle but it's pretty toned down compared to a lot of the other VMAs performances Janet is just in like high-waisted jeans and like a kind of like bralette you know it's not overly like production oriented but it speaks to just like star power on like megawatt display she's definitely not singing either this is definitely lip-synced but I was noticing that like they definitely did a re-recorded lip-sync which I love the a little extra effort that got put into that and she is just absolutely the most like seductive powerful creature in her very particular way like she's shy she's kind of inverted there's not this like sort of like blah look at me sort of vibe that Madonna has you know in everything she ever does and we love her for it it's this completely opposite sort of like held quiet but like explosive purring sexuality that I think is just like such a great expression of star quality like she is just there on stage radiating magic radiating superstardom performing some of the most like inventive and cool singles of the time period and the choreography to the if stuff just happening in front of your face like again it's one of those moments where it's like every single pop girly that came after her like studied this particular thing and like that is what female pop performance became from there forward like her coming into her sexuality which is what this performance and album represents and I think it's just like it's just like it's just like it's just like it's just is also such a key tenant of so many like post Janet VMA girlies from Britney to Christina to everybody that we talk about Tate McRae anybody you talk about afterwards is walking this trail you know Janet prior to this era had been kind of like a buttoned up tomboy she had been kind of like the little sister character so her owning her like sexual power in this way and that journey of female pop stardom from sort of like cute to sexual being is just like so like de rigueur now for them all to walk and like he or she is kind of like being the greatest expression I think of walking that and this performance just encapsulates that it's absolutely intoxicating every time I watch probably my most revisited I'll tell you what after this recording of all the songs we talked about I'm the song I'm gonna have to listen to first is if it is one of the best songs ever yes it's so good like truly one of the greatest pop songs ever made and she's one of the greatest performers to ever perform and just like a great example of what it means to be a superstar to me all right Russ we're getting to the top here what do you got at number two the number one artist that I associate with the VMAs is Madonna the number two is Britney Spears I struggled to figure out which Britney performance that I was going to choose you can really just watch each of the performances from Britney at the VMAs and you can see the arc of her career I did really like her very first one she does recreate the music she does recreate the music she does recreate the music video yeah that's the one where it's her and NSYNC together right and they're in the locker room with all the people and she does baby one more time baby one more time but it's I'm a slave for you a big thing that I thought about is am I thinking of the best or the most iconic and with the VMAs those things are really impossible to separate and this is one of the most iconic it's got to be in anyone's top five list as most iconic the image of Britney and the snake is one of the most enduring we have used it for the illustrations for our Britney Spears series when you think about iconic images I think that is the only one in the history of pop pantheon that comes from the VMAs I'm a slave for you it's an everything in the kitchen sink performance it is quite literally lions tigers and bears oh my the backup dancers are like stage musical broadway version of the lion king but like make it sluttier she gets so close to the audience with the snake I don't understand how this was a performance that got okayed by their lawyers the early 2000s was a different time it was that live anything can happen what if Britney Spears pulled out a snake and I would be just as gagged today if Tate McRae pulled out a snake and maybe she should right maybe live animals are still the frontier that would shock us like Tate McRae come riding out on a tiger and like that would really give it to us yeah and also just like I mean Britney at that moment just like eve escaping the garden of eden the imagery of that the cages everywhere you know Britney's you know whole career being this journey of is she free is she not free you know it's just like such a fascinating like it was just so whether it was thought out or not it's just such a well like trod imagery representation of like everything that made Britney fascinating her this giant phallic creature around her I mean it was just like God she was just pissing everybody off and she what I love about that performance is she seems to be loving it like she seems to be really enjoying pushing everybody's buttons in this way it's so rare in the eras after that that we really got to feel like her joy in performing because like pretty soon after that it started to feel like she didn't love doing what she did anymore and I think that like that's part of what makes that performance so electric too is there a performance between slave for you and gimme more the one you just talked about is the one that's in between it yeah and that's kind of that is the arc is like she's getting sexual she kissed Madonna and then it's like yeah look she partied too hard and now she can't like it's like that was then the art yeah right I would argue the gimme more performance is iconic I think that's inarguable it's as iconic as so as the other ones maybe not for the best reasons that she would want to remember but it's truly iconic it stands up okay Jake what do you have at number two my number two is Beyonce ring the alarm now there's a lot of reasons that I have this year but mostly I have like a conspiracy theory I think that this is like this was like the beginning of the Beyonce we have today there was like a MTV behind the music MTV documentary about this performance like about the lead up and it was like the first time we were like really brought into like Beyonce's Virgo perfectionism her like run it again do it again that's not right do it again and a huge part of the documentary is that they're not getting the harness off in time she gets flown in from the ceiling and they can't get the harness off in time oh I remember that I was thinking that when I was watching it back for this like there's this whole moment where you're like is something wrong they don't get the harness off in time during the live performance she for the first pre-chorus like the the whole like she the bring the alarm I've been through this too long she gets through all of that before they bring a camera on her they're just doing audience shots because she's not out of the harness like and you can tell the rest of that performance she's fucking mad she's furious like and it's just so funny to watch we were watching it last night and it's like you can tell she's furious and she's channeling that anger into every day of her life and it's like she's like she's dancing and she's being perfect and it's so funny knowing that those dancers know they fucked up and they're like I can't fuck up again and like everyone is just they're doing all that like Janet choreography and it is so perfect like it is so laser point and it was the beginning of being like oh like Beyonce is a machine in the best way and like I will never doubt her talent I will never doubt her ability like who am I to I'm like this she is the one in that regard and I think this is the performance that made me realize that. Also a great song to channel rage into it was the perfect vessel for that also I mean the crank back dance breakdown is one of her most iconic dance moves ever where she does the inspector gadget thing where she leans all the way back in a way that seems kind of not humanly possible to do and then like mechanically lifts herself back up is just like that's a very Michael Jackson-esque kind of like Ripley's believe it or not sort of move that's like so iconic to me. It's like a little rhythm nation too right? Very rhythm nation. Yes very rhythm nation great pick you know I'm glad that you brought Beyonce up because I considered pretty much every Beyonce performance and they're all amazing they're all so good and I didn't end up putting Beyonce on this list only because like I really could have put I mean that one the original crazy in love baby boy one from the first one her revealing blue ivy I think is maybe her most iconic moment on the VMAs you know the medleys from both the self-titled and Lemonade are like so good. So amazing like it's just I think what I ultimately decided is that like Beyonce's most iconic moments to me and iconic performances just like aren't those like it's homecoming it's the Super Bowl it's you know all whatever there's just like a zillion other things that like whereas like as Russ said the two people that are defined by the VMAs and that the VMAs define for me are Britney and Madonna and when I think of their most iconic performances of course they both have iconic moments and performances. That are outside of the VMAs but I think that like some of their most enduring iconography comes from that moment and like I. was thinking that watching Beyonce single ladies performance which is also fucking incredible her VMAs performance of single ladies is so electric and great but I was like do I associate this song and this choreography with the VMAs no I associate it with her performing that routine a zillion times and the video so like that was the only thing that steered me off of Beyonce which like frankly I would be happy to include them here it's also because Beyonce like back in the day like Beyonce was performing live on television like all the time and so that's kind of part of it is like there are better examples like if I'm gonna watch her do an award show for me it's that billboard one with the ball it's the fucking billboard one girl but do you know what my actual favorite like live show Beyonce performance is pause the podcast get on YouTube she did run the world girls on French x-factor bitch it's so good it's like this red stage her and it's back when she had the whole all-female band yeah she's all in white she is having fun like she is having fun like it's it's like the four era when she's not always in the persona of like I am the boss like she's smiling she's having a good time that that performance is incredible but it's the billboard one you're right like her VMA performances it's not that they're bad it's just that like she's actually knocking herself out this list by having done better shit on other shows it's just like her most iconic performances to me are just not the they're all that billboard one is so incredible it's so good I was like at parties in college like stopping the party to make the whole party watch the billboard performance 100% and like homecoming is the single greatest live performance of all time period televised live performance that we will ever witness as human beings okay so with Britney and Madonna in mind they the one that I chose at number two is Britney's 2000 performance of I can't get no satisfaction into oops I did it again again I would have been just as happy with any of the ones that both of you picked I think all of the Britney performances are enduring and like incredible each for their own reason for some reason this one to me I think in the same way that I think about paparazzi with Lady Gaga is like this is where Britney like was at like kind of came into being Britney to me like I almost felt like I was watching before my eyes a superstar like reaching the zenith of her impact like again there's just this mischievous look in her eye when she hits the floor at the end of this performance at the end of this performance and I think it's just like I don't know I don't know I don't know after she's like ripped off the thing and it's funny because we think of this performance is so scandalous now and it's another one to me where I look back on it now and I'm like this is so standard like she's in like you know a little bralette and her pants are really low slung but it's like every teenager you see in the world like dresses in some version of this kind of attire now but we were we were scandalized by this and there's just something about the performance in fact even just her like appropriation of the Rolling Stones song is just so funny to me like just like you know thought of as trash thought of as like pre-fab music industry product and just watching her kind of like coo her way through like you know a rock great in that way just felt so subversive and awesome to me and then to watch her turn it into this show of like burgeoning like enraging female sexuality you know there's so much rage in Britney Spears right like there's so much like that's part of what like kind of endears us to her and it makes us fascinated by her and you're just seeing her with like the flames of hell like bursting around her and everyone is judging her and everyone is projecting all of their fears onto her and she's just like kind of owning it living it and having fun with it in this way in that performance and it's just one of those moments like she and Madonna kissing where I remember sitting in front of the tv in my family room and watching it and just being like I will defend this woman until my death when that it's that gay guy tweet of like you know we all get assigned one woman who we decide will like defend until our dying day like that that performance to me is the moment where I was like this is my protectorate like this woman is my ward I remember feeling watching it I distinctly remember when watching it I couldn't believe that there was something beyond what had already happened in the music video because the oops video was so unreal and like I was because again no youtube I was sitting in front of the tv begging for it to be played in some context over and over and over again so then a new version that was different and better and but like just I was like I can't I was like this song is the greatest song ever written it's a truly and it actually and it really is the greatest song ever written and like I just you know it just makes me sad looking back on it because there was so much fire in this person's soul and it's like I mean we don't have to get into the tragedy part of it but it but it just it's just fucking like the like that is a star like that is a super duper star right there so I just love that one all right number ones boys we know Jake's already unfortunately Jake's got spoiled for us but Jake that was a great song and I love it I love it I love it I love it I love it thank you I appreciate it I knew putting it there what would happen but I had I had to be true to myself and I happen to know that Russ and I picked the same number one so we can kind of wrap up together wait I want to guess wait can I try to guess hold on yes go yeah yeah yeah it's gonna be I'm gonna be like fucking mad at myself because it's like I oh is it vogue it's vogue what else could it be it's vogue let your body move to the music me picking like a virgin was like I'm not gonna do vogue I'm glad you did because now we get to talk about all of the amazing ones but like this was like when we got the assignment I knew from yeah it's like it's gonna be vogue I mean Russ you want to give a treatise I'm sure you have one sure I sure do I think of this as a changing of the guard on the VMA stage in this is the moment in which you transition from rock and roll dominating the culture of MTV in the 1980s into the 80s are over bitch this is the fucking 90s where Madonna Vogue it's a full stage production it's essentially a different art form than what had been done the previous decade there's certainly some dance oriented stuff in the mix I would shout out like Paula Abdul as one of the people that softens the ground for this she has a great 1980s dance pop performance on the VMAs but this is dances theater this is pop spectacle she revolutionized innovated and forever changed the format with this performance the level to which this is still being referenced is kind of stunning it is on the mood board permanently she is lip-syncing to herself she does not have a mic she does not touch a mic there is not a quote-unquote Britney mic anywhere to be seen she completely disposes with the artifice of the format by saying well I'm just gonna dance to my song it's a breaking of the fourth wall and it's pretty incredible in its moment during a moment of rock and roll authenticity during a time in which people were getting slammed for accusations of not singing live on tour in performances this was her giving a middle finger to the norms of the day she's hitting her marks but the dance is still going on and she's still going on and she's still going on and she's still dancing it's a New York City ballroom scene there is very valid critique of how Madonna has interfaced with the black and brown queer culture in this moment I see them as the stars and I see them as sharing the stage and sharing in the shine of this performance the formation that they land on at the end of this performance the shimmy when they move back and forth across the stage the opera glasses just like I love everything about this performance it's everything and I just want to also just like say everything you said and like the genius visual aspect of this entire thing I mean we're already dealing with like voguing which is such a rich culture that is interpreting so many different facets of American culture through a black and Latin queer lens you know everything from old Hollywood glamour to art deco whatever that's the videos doing all of that stuff right the roll call of the movie stars but then to then trace that back to like you know Louis the 16th era for the first time in a long time and I think that's the most important thing that we're able to do is to have a space where we can have a space where we can be a part of the dance and have her be Maria Antoinette and have all of these queer black and brown dancers be dressed in the sort of French aristocratic attire and then to be reinterpreting because you know voguing and so much is sort of like a reclamation of white spaces where black and brown queer people were actually not invited so they're creating their own ecosystems to sort of re-own or reimagine themselves in these spaces and what Madonna is helping to do and facilitate by doing this sort of visual representation is creating yet another space to sort of reimagine these bodies that I think is just like such an amazing thing and then the other part of that is it's just so fucking fierce like she looks so cunt in that little with her powdered white and the tits up and the big hoop dresses the men look so sexy in the kind of like you know again like Louis the 16th era the shoes the stockings the waistcoat it's just like again it's just those things of like Madonna was so good at this like she was just so good at conceptual pop like it's just no one's done it better I don't think the use of that and giving it to friends French glamour specifically is very specific and pointed and cool. One thing I love about it, and again, gets into the sort of context question is like, how do you take what people loved about the music video and then give it a new spin? And I also think this performance, the Britney performance we just talked about, all the Britney, like are kind of like adjacent to their music video worlds, but kind of re-imagining them in a new way, which like, again, is something that we can never do on the contemporary VMAs because nobody cares about any of the music videos anymore. So it's not, there's like that whole part of it's been ripped out too. So anyway, that was just like such a fun exercise. I have to say, Russ, thank you for the assignment. Does anyone want to throw out just like random ones that just like, we don't have to get in depth, but just like ones that you considered? I would just say a couple that came to me that I kind of had forgotten about. I did think about Miley and Robin Thicke just because it's so iconic. TLC No Scrubs in 1999 was really, really big for me. I love that performance. Kanye's Runaway in 2010 is pretty amazing with the ballerinas on that big white stage. And Marilyn Manson's The Dope Show in 1999. Which, shout out Lindsay again. She reminded me of like, incredible song, like just totally like burned into my brain because I was kind of scared of Marilyn Manson and had a lot of fun revisiting that one. Any others? I would toss into the pile Eminem's The Real Slim Shady, where he starts it in the street and it's all of the guys lined up dressed in what very quickly becomes his trademark look. And then they all walk into Radio City Music Hall together and they fill both of the. the aisles. That one is excellent. And then No Doubt doing Spiderwebs Electric on the marquee. So it's up on. They're using the marquee of Radio City Music Hall as like a balcony and they're all squished in there and it's the full ska band and she's ripping it and it's very like, is she going to jump from up there? But there is a. Remember when Gwen Stefani was so cool? Yeah, we can't, we can't, we can't, we can't. How far we have fallen. This very Sunday night, you will see performances that are surely going to immediately enter the canon by Shabuzy, Gunna, Sienna Spyro. Bella Kay. Good God, good God. However, we will be roasting all of those in our Patreon watch along. You can get the Patreon chat by downloading the Patreon app. Even free members right now can get in there and use the chat. So if you are listening to this, give that a go. You can also use a web browser to get there. Jake will be performing if you live in any of the following cities. San Diego, Los Angeles, Chicago, Tacoma, and Spokane. jakecornell.com for tickets to his stand-up shows. Jake, how can they find you on social media? You can follow me at jakewcornell on TikTok, Instagram, or Threads. And I'm announcing a bunch more tour dates very soon. So you can, you know, there'll be places to come see me. So please come see me. Fab. Thank you so much, Jake. Guys, this was so fun. It was so fun. It really was. It ended up being way better than I even thought. Also, obviously, everybody let us know your favorite VMAs performances in the comments. And we will see you next week. Bye, everybody. Bye. Bye.