Othered in Canada

[MUSIC] Hello and welcome to New Canadian Voices, the local immigration partnership podcast about newcomers to Canada. My name is Damila La Unime. This is a show from the National Local Immigration Partnership Secretariat. In order to better support the needs of newcomers to this country, the local immigration partnership model or lip model has been in place for over a decade. Leaves are localized organizations designed to help newcomers settle in on the right of levels, from finding work to language learning to community building. Now this podcast is another way we're helping to build compassion and communication around immigration challenges. But partnering with various lips to bring these seasons stories to you. In this season of the show, we'll have open and honest conversations with people who have come to Canada under the different immigration pathways, from people who immigrated under the PNP to express entry, which is the economic immigration pathway. To refugees sticking asylum in this country and so much more. Now, episode by episode, we take a critical look at the systemic barriers. And oftentimes, the share racism that newcomers face when they arrive, and kickstart their journey of settling in their new home. We also turn to experts to help us understand the immigration system in Canada and what can and should be done better, support new comers and set them up for success on their journey. So come along with me. I am originally from Colombia, Colombia, South America. I came to Canada over 20 years of old as a refugee because my parents where my particular, my father was a human rights activist because of that, he was started by right wing groups in Colombia. So we ended up leaving the country. It's a long journey, but we came to kind of since then, I've been working on different projects around social justice. In particular, migrant justice has been a piece of work that I've been connected to. I am fortunate that I'm connected to different migrant communities, although I would say that I'm very connected with the Latino, Latinx kind of migrant community, but I'm also being fortunate to build relationships with different asperas and different communities from the world, whether it's people from Sudan and people from Somalia, people from Afghanistan, Palestine, see, or yeah. And it has been very fortunate and honored to be able to work with a broad range of people from the migrant world. And this is another show I was fortunate enough to have some experts inside on the systemic issues that immigrants and refugees often face. Jorge Salazar is an activist and educator. He's the project director at the Inner Activist, a leadership education program. And he also works with the refugee-likelyhood lab at Semen Frazier University in British Columbia. He'll be with us across the first half of a season. I spoke to Jorge about some of the context behind the experiences that you hear our guests describe. I don't know if this is offensive. If white people can see themselves in the kind of immigrants migrants that they are accepting, they treat them differently. That's right, but I would be curious why do you think that might be offensive? I think that's a good conversation. I would like us to think about that. We are so careful as migrant folk. Because I see you as a sister, like we are people, right? We're the people. And we always so careful around this, but you didn't say nothing really like pushy. You're not talking about taking anything down. You're talking like, "Hey, it looks like white women culture in Canada. They like to keep it away. They like to see themselves with whiteness more than they like to see other people as human." Which is not that everybody's like that. I think we all, it's important to understand that this dynamic is our systemic. It takes a lot of work, a lot of awareness, leaning into this dynamic to be able to understand how these things happen. This is not, this is on one person doing. This is culturally something that happens. And I'm saying, and that's why I wanted to ask you about this because I think, yes, white people who have most power in Canada do this. But also, we migrant folk do these too. I worked for over 20 years in the field of migrant justice. I was talking to a friend yesterday about this. I was like, "Oh my God, I've been working in the field for over two decades. It's a long time. And I'm pretty young." But then I was realizing that when I worked, we're 15 years ago with migrant youth because now I work mostly with adults. I remember asking young people about their engagement with people who might be undocumented, who have precarious status. And we all consume the story of like, we have to check these people because they might be dangerous. Like the whole discourse on how borders are constructed is violent inherently. Because it forces everybody within the border who's now protected and hurtfully drive to try to protect that border against other vote. And some people are well-consuming people at home or not. And how with the stingwitch that needs to be on part, needs to be a conversation. Now put yourself in the shoes of someone at the beginning stages of the immigration system. You want to come to Canada to build a life. For, you know, one of many reasons, maybe you're a refugee or a school worker. Or maybe you have sponsorship. Like half-first guest Nubia. I've been living here in Orson Cooper, NBC for 10 years. How do you find yourself in Canada? Where are you from? I'm originally from Brazil, my family, whole families from Brazil, my parents, grandparents. And I met my husband online and we met in Brazil and then we moved here. It was our plan. We dated for a while and then we ended up here because he's from here. Here as in Canada. Canada, yes. Perfect. So boy, me, it's girl in Brazil. You move to Canada. And, you know, you're moving to start a new life with this new person. You're supposed to have that support system. He's from here. What was it like moving your life to a new country to start this brand new life? What was that like? It was interesting. I think in a way, the beginning was a mix of scary and a lot of excitement. That opportunity to start something new. And I heard so many good things about Canada. And I knew so much about Canada. I thought I knew all of it. And I was very excited. It was, my move was very planned. He came back. We lived in Brazil for a while and then he came back to Canada. And I just stayed there to make sure that I said goodbye to everybody. So what I had to sell. So I had that process to really believe that I knew what I was doing. So I'd say that the beginning was very exciting. It was mostly exciting, then scary. And I was in my 20s. So I was a young adult. I had a lot to look forward to. Okay. So you said that you heard a lot of good things, right? What was some of those good things? This era type of the "Hopelite Canadians" are. That's something that I had heard of. But I also saw when I came here. How organized the country is safety, how safe it is. When you settled and you started taking in some of these experiences, you're in this new place. What was some of those things that quickly jumped out to you that no one had pulled you about, of course you had heard that it was beautiful. But what was some of the things that no one really told you about? What's out for this is probably going to happen to you. Racism, for sure. Something that I was not told about. I was not warned. The microaggressions that you might experience. Like everything else seemed like I had a good idea of what it would be. But microaggressions, racism, those were things that I was mostly told the opposite and I expected the opposite. That's why I was puzzled when I started experiencing certain things. It was hard for me to really realize what was going on because I did not expect them to happen. Tell me some of those microaggressions. What happened? Was someone looking at you weird? Yeah. I think going into a drug store, the most common place and half that feeling that you're being followed. But then you don't really see it happening to everyone. You don't really see it happening to people that don't look like me. Nobias reflections speak to an experience that a lot of newcomers can relate to. That feeling of being offered. All three needs what happens when a core group of people treats someone to put it simply as the other. If you were a treat that person like different from them, you can feel other due to your race, your economic background, your sexuality, your accent like mine and there is the goes on. Many new arrivals to Canada have at least one point of authoring that makes it harder for them to reconcile their old identities with their new Canadian ones. So you were shifting away from who Nubia is to be to be coming the Canadian Nubia. Yes. And not because you wanted to, but because that's just a circumstance. Yeah. And feeling like I had to, if I wanted to be a successful Canadian, whatever that really means, I'd have to change myself a little bit more to be closer to somebody who's not me. Look more, sound more like someone who's not me. And did you feel like you were losing your identity? I wouldn't say that I felt like I was losing it. I think in a way and one benefit of moving here is that I started learning about my identity way more than when I was in Brazil. Because you don't think about identity, right? Like you just are period. But when you're other or when you know that you're different or when, you know, when everything seems normal to someone and you're like, wait a minute, I don't get this joke. Then you start knowing and learning who you are. So I didn't say that I lost my identity. I definitely changed. But I think that I've been learning a lot more about my identity here than I would have if I were in Brazil. I think it would have taken a lot more muscle for me to really realize like what is identity. It's an interesting exercise when you're away from home. And when you get that opportunity to really see like, okay, so this is how I'm different and this is what I bring. Novia says that at first she hardly noticed any issues at all with how she was being treated in the Canadian society. And it took a little while to begin to see some inequalities that play. I think that for me it was about two years. First two years I was very busy getting settled trying to get a job studying and just trying to understand what's going on. After those two years then I had the job like I knew I'm here. Yes, I'm here. I'm staying. And that's when I started noticing things. And when I started feeling more lonely, I'd say, letting those connections that I once had. And even experiencing the weather because it's different. There are so many things that we experience when you move, right? Like it's not only the physical connections, but it's also your body going through physical changes related to the weather and it was getting dark. And after the two-year mark, it's when I started realizing that things were not perfect. Because that's what you think. Like when you're leaving and you go into a place like Canada, yes, my life is going to be perfect. I knew it wasn't going to be like 100 percent perfect, but very close to it. Not 100 percent because I'd be away from my parents, my friends, but it would be quite close to it. But then you start realizing, oh, people actually matter quite a bit that being geographically close to someone is quite important. So I started realizing what my priorities were and what was important in life for me and how some of the things that society seemed to value quite a bit. They were not. They didn't matter that much to me at that point and how I missed the end also. And I think that the other word is that belonging. That sense of belonging. I knew I didn't have it. And I think that's what makes it tough. Yeah. So just before we go to the issue of belonging, I'm finding a community. I want to ask you, of course, you, it was nice. You are in this new place and also no one told you that there's a lot of racism in this country. I remember that also one of the things that we have talked about before is the fact that when you were coming to Canada, you had this illusion that there's no racism in Canada or it would be all fine and then they are amazing. What led you to that conclusion? How did you come to that conclusion? So in Brazil, my husband, Canadian, my Canadian husband said that, oh, there aren't many black people in Canada. And I don't think there is any racism there. He really told me there isn't racism against black people in Canada. And I had come here many times and I learned about the racism that existed and it still exists towards against indigenous people. And that's why I questioned him. And he thought like, oh, because of the history, because there aren't black people, I think, and people now, their minds are more open than there isn't any racism. But of course, today, he, and I know that he didn't know the history of Canada even. But people in Canada that our families here that have been here for generations. Lots of people think that all because someone is black, they are newer generation. They are not Canadian, but there are many people that have been here for a long time. And there is history of racism in Canada in many parts of Canada in many things that happened, not recently. From a long time ago, so we're learning, we're getting educated and he's getting educated. I think today, if I went to a different country and somebody told me that, I would say, okay, you're wrong. I'm not as naive, but I was back then. And I think he was as well. And I wanted to believe that, because in Brazil, there is racism. Like, I think there is most countries in the world. I don't know if there is any spot in the world where you won't find racism, sadly. But as a young adult, I really wanted to believe that was possible. That having a reality where the color of your skin doesn't matter, that the texture of your hair doesn't matter. That your features say nothing about you. That, you know, like who you are is what matters. That possibility to me was, you know, such a beautiful dream that I think it was very hard when I realized that was not the case here, that I didn't have that sense of security that I had that safe that I felt safe before when I arrived that was false. How did you deal with it? I'm still dealing with it. Yeah. And I think that I'm getting more mature over time. And my response to myself is educating myself and trying to understand racial matters and understand how the society works and what I can do to be anti-racist. So I'm trying to educate myself and at the same time try to learn more about myself and be proud of who I am and really respect diversity and really respect difference and value how much better we are when we're different. So I can really speak how it speak up and really change things even if a little bit, even if in my household, even if I'm just changing myself, I don't know, like I just want to educate myself more and also listen to people, listen to different people with different experiences as well and learn. Remember what Jorge said about immigrants being treated differently, according to how close they are to whiteness. Nubia sees this treatment on a personal level. There are many black people here who have been here for a long time and again, there are people from all ethnicities who have been here for a very long time. So looking at someone or so just having that idea for people right now at home to or anywhere wherever place they're listening from. If they close their eyes and they picture a Canadian, what is that, what does that person look like? I probably see a white person. Exactly. And that's something that needs to change because when we do that, like when we have that picture, then we assume that everybody else is, we start having biases and we start discriminating against people. When we use that, when we use that picture of who the Canadian is to rank people because sadly, like immigrants are treated differently. They are treated sometimes as depending on where they're immigrating from as less than if their language, if English is not their first language. It's all those ranking things like to get a job or to have opportunities. I think people need to start changing that. And when someone discriminates you that way and asks you automatically without knowing a thing about you, goes directly assuming that you're not from here or whatever. It shows a huge, huge bias and it needs to change. People need to change. I know. I know. Let's talk about finding community and belonging in this. How have you founded? Do you have a circle of friends? Do you have people that you can turn to, you had said earlier about how difficult it is to be away from your family? I think that one thing that has been very helpful for me is to keep my connections in Brazil alive, very alive, that's where I get my strength from, is family and friends just continue to communicate with them. At home, speaking Portuguese to my kids, that's also amazing. And also, I made a decision that my kids would grow by language when that I only speak Portuguese. these to them. I think that these diversity and racial issues, it's a little tricky. There are lots of people that will tell them about your experience and they look puzzled at you. They look like, "Oh, what are you talking about?" And I even had professionals that I, when I started telling one professional specifically, and I was talking about it was a job coach. And when I started explaining my situation as a black immigrant, she responded, "But you're in Canada, right?" She responded that what my husband had said 50 years ago that there was no racism in Canada. And this was pre-pandemic. I think it's changing now. People are more aware, but before the pandemic, especially, but still happens, you can't really talk about everything with everyone. People won't understand your experience, but it's not only about not understanding your experience, they are not necessarily going to be open to try and listen. And I think that's what makes it harder for me specifically to have this sense of belonging and say, "Hey, I do have my people." Or sometimes they make excuses or they're just like, "Oh, you're overreacting. Get over it. Absolutely." And that's the worst, right? Like, not having your experience validated. And for many years, I accepted that. Every time people made excuses, I accepted it. And I started making excuses myself. I thought, "You would experience something?" And I'd say, "Oh, no, that was not that. It was something else. That person was just having a bad day." You know, it wasn't it. So I started making excuses for people. And I was internalized at the same time. And that was so damaging because I would make excuses. And then I'd internalized the aggression. I'd internalized the racism. And I would become smaller and smaller. And I wouldn't even hear my voice, listen to my voice. Yeah. So it's very dangerous when we make excuses or when we allow others to do that. Yeah. You wake up one morning and you're like, "Who am I? Yeah. I don't even know who I am. I don't know what I'm doing." Let's talk a bit about your career. What do you do? I'm an executive assistant. I have a bachelor's in international relations in Brazil. I studied a lot about immigration and research about Angolan refugees in the city of San Paulo. Have you experienced any of this in your work? Like, any racism, any authoring, finding work? How was that? Yeah. When I arrived here, I really, I was ready eager to find work as soon as possible and just get going. I had a few interesting experiences in the beginning. So looking for work, one thing that was interesting was that I applied. Like, it was a job for me to look for a job. I would wake up at 6. What a bad nose. Stop looking at 6 p.m. from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. I remember that one time, one person called me back to tell me that I didn't get a job, which nobody usually does, right? Or didn't get an interview. I used that opportunity to talk to the person and ask, "Can you tell me why? Can you help me understand why?" And she said, "When I look at your resume and I see that you don't have Canadian experience, like that already put you out basically." And then I talked to her and then she said, "Now that I'm listening to you, I can see that you have potential, but I couldn't by looking at your resume." So she basically told me, "Yes, we have a bias here. We see that you're not Canadian and you are already out." And I appreciated her honesty, even though I knew it was covered. It was really bad, but she was basically telling me what others were. They also thought that way, which is very sad. So many of us don't even get an opportunity to go and have an interview because of our names, because English is not the first language of the country we come from, because of course, if I had come from England, for example, I'm sure that I would have been called, right? I don't have the Canadian experience, but I would have had the British experience. So it's very interesting to see how you can be discriminated against even before people see you. So that's, I think that's one thing that said, believe many immigrants face and will continue to face while if people don't change their mindset in terms of biases, I think that really needs to change. I wanted to say that I have experienced in the professional area. They were very weird for me to understand, for many reasons, and today I understand that it's like I live intersectionality, like it's I'm very clear someone who's at many intersections of life, and red as black, woman, English is not my first language in an amnemigrant. Those things when I experience microaggressions or when I experience things that don't sound very, don't sound okay, I never know where they're coming from and why I'm experiencing them. So the more I read, or I hear about others experiencing the same things and I start being pointing and thinking, okay, so that wasn't my progression. One day, I, one experience that I had was in the organization I work for. I don't really do presentations, but I had an opportunity to MC an event. And this was a few years ago. I think, yeah, it was definitely before the pandemic. It was something hard for me to do, but something that I was very proud of myself for doing. And again, full-grown adult, when I finished a woman younger than me, a white woman, she says, oh my gosh, she looked so cute up there. And I, I was puzzled. I was confused. I was annoyed. I was like cute. And I like, I'm not, I don't, I'm not young. Like I am sure, like a young adult, I can say, like, I don't see myself at a young adult, but some people could think that I'm a young adult, sure. But she's clearly younger than I am, like a few years around the same age. But now to say that I look cute when I'm in that position, presenting something. It was very, I've failed in a way that I couldn't really understand and explain. And then I read books and people talking about, like, black women, lots of times being in centralized, like people looking at them as kids, or not being able to really level and see. So these little things, they happen every day and all the time, then you can't really understand. Anyway, so things like that happen and you can't, you don't really know what to do with that. At that time, like, I was a few years younger, three years ago. At that time, it was like, okay, I wanted to, I was proud of something that I had done to hear that I, from another woman that I was cute. It did not sit well with me. For me, I'm on this journey where I want to grow. And now I leave things like that with the other person, but as I said before, I used to internalize things. And I know that many of us end up internalizing. And the old me would rather say, I don't want to present. I don't want to do this because I don't want to hear those things. I don't want to deal. And this is just an example, right? I've heard other things, like, as not here, necessarily, but in different places, as a black woman. Like every time you've stepped in to outside of your comfort zone, there is someone telling you, hey, you're not supposed to be there. I asked Nubia, you've asked her everything she's experienced. She'll do it again. Well, she comes to Canada with a husband. She had a second chance to decide. And someone who's trying to be an incredible love. So I'll have to say yes to that, especially because I love him and I love my kids. So I have to say yes to that. But I would definitely have done a lot of things differently, a lot of things. Again, I don't think I would be able to do any of the things differently because I had to go through certain things to think the way I think today. And I would have come with a different perspective, like I read, I would respect myself so much more. I would not have tried to change so many things. I would have focused on different things and I would have set, called people out more, even by asking questions. As I said, I think that's a great way for calling them out, so they can listen to themselves. Like I, I've heard so many offensive things. And sometimes it's against somebody else, which I absolutely hate because I say like, okay, you're talking about, you think that it's okay to talk about a different ethnicity to me? Yeah, it's not okay. Period. Like it's, I don't, I really don't get that. When people think that it's okay and it's just not. But I think I would have had, and I would definitely not have internalized so much pain and so much hurt and like I would have let go of a lot of stuff. A lot sooner. Yeah. And it's so much work. It's so much work. Nubia's story speaks to a lot of difficult feelings that many immigrants share. We feel displaced from our old homes. And oftentimes when we arrive in our new home, we feel alienated. Now Jorge says, it's more than just an individual experience. We're trying to unpack the complexities of the human experience, who is not part of the dominant Western culture. That's important to this thing, which is, So we're talking about years or years of survival and oppression and being exploited for our resources, etc. So there's a little trauma there that contains our understanding of the world. Our next guest, like Nubia, carries her own culture very close to her heart. But also trying to adjust and evolve within a new environment. I am originally from the Eastern part of India from a province called Bengal, and my mother-ton is Bengali, which is one of the 10 most spoken world languages today. That's Bashali Mitra. She remembers her first day in Canada very clearly. I came to Canada in 2011 or guest. I migrated to Canada from the UK where I was an international student. Her studying in Bristol, journalism, and worked there for a tiny bit, but decided to move to Canada. Just was, I think, feeling a little bit more adventurous and had a partner at that time who had a job opportunity with the UFA as a postdoc, and I was looking for some more opportunities and packed up a suitcase and kind of like, yeah, move to the priories. Didn't know a single person. It's very adventurous. And yeah, I've been working in Canada just in Edmonton since then. I work as an inclusion advisor with an orth American violent gas private company in Edmonton. And before this, I have worked with the government of Alberta in different equity portfolios and also with the City of Edmonton's arts and heritage agency as equity advisors. I love Edmonton. I love the city. This is the only city I have stayed for over 10 years in my life. I've been kind of like brought up in boarding school since age four. So you know, that my great piece has been very inherent and moving from one city to another. So I think I have a lot of love for Edmonton. And I hope this can be pretty six, ten, three can be in my home for a very, very long time to come. Nice. So you spoke a little bit about being originally from India and then you moved to the UK before deciding to move to Alberta. So what was the experience of being essentially an immigrant in the UK? So I was an international student in the UK and I'll tell you a small story and you know, being from India and this might sound really not so postcolonial but you know, this is a reality that you know, if you are in India, like you're more into you with the British education system. And that's how colonizers have left a lasting legacy and mark on as rates. So so many of our cultural programs, education programs and how we are brought up and taught in the universities follow a lot of the English way of doing things, right? So I did not have a lot of adjustments that I had to make in the UK particularly when it came to language and accents and you know how the ways of working and it just to be mindful like I was an international student, so life is very different. You are within, you know, a lot of your peer bubbles from other countries or a large portion of South Asian students. So but still like I think the culture shock, the weather shock was quite there. The UK and Bristol is a very progress city just like Edmonton. I think it was a culture shock for sure but a system shock not so much but I can share a very funny story when I got down to London, he threw airport and my grandma had bought a huge umbrella for me because it rains there in the UK, right? So she bought this like a really beautiful umbrella from this very Bengali umbrella store, family generation of umbrella store, where you say, okay, if you're going to the UK, you need an umbrella so I'm going to get you an umbrella and that doesn't really fit in my check-in luggage and so when I got down to he threw airport and after doing all the immigration things for hours and hours and I get to my baggage clean area and then all my bags have come but my umbrella was missing. So I went to the border services agency asking them, "Hey, where is my umbrella?" and I kept asking for my umbrella and I wouldn't, I think I missed my bus from the airport to Bristol because I was chasing after my umbrella and that was so special to me, right? Because my family bought that for me and I wanted to have it but down the airlines they somehow they misplaced it and the border services were of no help of course, I understand, you know, they had other bigger problems to solve than being worried about my umbrella. So you know that was a bit of a shock to me, I was from a small city where my dad knew everybody so I could get around, you know, asking the word of mouth and like I was so in so his daughter so you know I could, that small town connection and you land in lead-throw airport and like boom that was my first international travel as well outside India and I was like in my 20s early late 1890s and like you know so I was a huge shock for me, I think that umbrella story like you know it's a different world, everybody is not going to think their priority as my priority so it's been a very symbolic story in my life since then. But Shali has emigrated a couple of times and lived within many different cultural contexts. I was curious to hear her perspective on this idea of all the ring that I had explored with Nubia and Jorge. I think being othered you know it's it's a very emotional experience and you don't know as an individual when you are othering someone or you are feeling othered right, my stand on it on the otherness is coming from a racialized immigrant woman's perspective, there's twin two billion Indians so you know my stories might not be similar to others right. I think one of the biggest struggles I faced and I still continue to face is we are brought up very different society it's a very collectivist society it's a very it's a society which you know where there's a lot of being than doing we do things in different styles right like our ways of working, our ways of communicating, our ways of friendships are quite different than the North American individualistic societies right it's challenging to find meaningful friendships at times where you know we come from a world where things are a little different right like we don't friendship is not that calendarized you know you don't have to send a calendar invite or you don't have to organize things so much it's a lot spontaneous and it's a lot casual it's a lot that's how emotions work right so and when you're coming into a new country in your 20s and you don't know many people and you're starting to build that network and you're especially for me I don't have my mom and dad here and many of my friends have and my partner have heard this face so many times that they've gotten bored I think oh you don't have your mom and dad yet that's a give it but like you know just just it might sound cliché but like when you're trying to establish yourself in a new home you know how does how does in your ways of working back home how you cultivate friendship how you cultivate your social integration and how you establish yourself beyond your work rate is so important so in there is that constant feeling of otherness that goes on how how you're communicating that and like you know so I've been lucky to have some really good friends who have state friends mentors and then state friends in the last 12 years but you know there's a lot to think about when you think think about the word integration or otherness? - Let's talk a little bit about the other aspect of being other and the realization that you are essentially and outsider in a new community when you just move here. I know that, and this is something that we would chat about and you briefly mentioned how independent the society is here. In places like India and from Nigeria, even in Nigeria also, we have a very collective society. People do things together. You have your families, generations and generations. You have parties and all of these things. It's a very inclusive society. And your identity is also formed based off of different things. In Nigeria, it is your religion, not the color of your skin. In India also, I believe it is your language, right? Or what part of the country that you're from? If it's the minority, if it's the majority. But in, and tell me if this was your experience. Did you, you know, upon arrival, like when you moved to Canada, did your identity shift to become, oh, she's a South Asian woman or she's a racialized woman? Because for me, that was my experience. I immediately became a black person. I'd never really thought about myself as a black person until I moved to North America. Can you speak a little bit about that? Yeah, and you bring up a very, very interesting and good point to me. And I definitely have gone through that phase. I'm brown. And I didn't really have to think about my skin color when I was in India, right? Because that's who we are. We are all brown people. My, my parents, my household has always observed all major cultural observances in India. Be it weed, be it the valley, be it Christmas. It's a very secular household. And I think that they're Hindus, right? And I think I took my privileges of being from the dominant major religion, granted. So there's different dimensions of diversity. And there's different aspects that I was unconsciously aware of when I was in India. But color was not a dimension. I was definitely made to feel my gender when I was traveling in public transit in India. Where should I put my backpack? Can I just put it in front of my friend so that I don't want it touching in that area? Like it's a different body being a woman, especially in public transit in India. And again, I don't want to stereotype the situations, but there are some really horrible lead experiences there. But color was never a theme until you came to the West. And especially my experiences in Canada where the government forms or the dialogues in society where you're-- I guess for lack of a better word, you're boxed, right? And with that box comes certain generalizations of what this box is expected to do, right? So I was not a South Asian in India. I'm a South Asian in Canada, right? I'm a Bengali. My diversity dimensions of my identity in India is Bengali, a woman for sure. And then a Bengali, my language, linguistic identity, my religious identity, Hindu, even though I don't want to be clubbed in that religious identity. But just because how the government operates, I am clubbed. And club doesn't upper class Hindu. But when you come to Canada, those dimensions of diversity doesn't exist. It's your color. And I think we're getting a lot better in talking about our mother tongue. So that's an emerging diversity dimension that we are seeing in the current conversations, right? But yeah, color definitely is a new identity. Since I have become more aware of my skin color since 2011. And why is this classification a problem? You know, I don't know if I would call it a problem, but it's definitely the challenge. I wonder how we can get off from that boxed identity and just be able to see a human being with an intersectional race, like, lens, right? I am a product of my geography. I'm a product of where I went to school, who my parents were, which religion, even unconsciously, like, you know, I was made to be part of, or where I was born, right, in between each and who my friends were, what the university I went to, what kind of exposure to literature I've had, and all those things, my gender, my sex, and, you know, the unseen disabilities that I have. So these all makes me who I am, you know, and many more beyond that waterline and unseen characteristics of what a person sees, right? But I think a person who is, especially a government person, like, you know, who is wanting to provide you support, like, as a newcomer, right? So when you have, like, so many people moving into this country and the country needs immigrants to have a steady source of its guilt and unskilled, don't let you use that term, but like, you know, it's labor force growing. So I'm thinking how they would have to start with some generalizations on their part, but what ends up happening is on the street that that generalization goes into stereotyping. And that's when this challenge starts, right? Like, generalization is okay. Like, you are doing that on a very statistical way, but, you know, when you start the everyday people will then start stereotyping it, right? So I'm wondering, that's where the challenge lies. And how can I, as a person, as a newcomer, break that challenge to talk more about who I am as an intersectional human being? - But shelly is pointing out something very important here. During the process of immigration, we are ordered and generalize that every turn. Made into statistics and stereotypes on government forums. Of course, we want to integrate into a new environment, but it can also feel like we're losing part of our identity in order to become Canadians. It's a complicated feeling. Luckily, Peshali says that she hasn't had to face it completely alone. - My experience is very exclusive to Canada. I think there's some really, really interesting things happening in Canada. I wish they could be more, but I think there's some really beautiful strategies in terms of inclusion policies that's coming out of Canada, which I'm very, very proud of. You know, it's not perfect. India is not perfect, but it's done my whole right. And I would love it to bits and pieces till the day I am. I'm a Hindu, so I will be cremated. So the day I will be cremated, and I will do the same for my new home in Canada, right? So it's a beautiful mess. And I think I'm very privileged to be a newcomer here, to figure that mess out and have had some solid, solid people as allies in this journey. And some solid people that I would have loved to change some mindsets with. So you lose quite a bit of your identity, but you know, if you have some strategies to hold on to these identities, you don't necessarily have to lose them. And I have figured that for myself, like how to hold on to my identities. I am going to protect my identity. I am going to protect my accent. I am never going to give up my South Asian accent. I'm never going to give up the way I speak English. And I will always be very proud of my mother tongue and make it a part of introducing my mother tongue to the people that I'm meeting for the first time, because that is who I am. It's where I come from, where I have landed in 36. There's a lot going on in a person. and identity than what's visible. And I think I take that on us on me, depending on my energy level of the day, which is very important to interact with people who are meeting for the first time. (soft music) (soft music) Most of our guests in this episode and even the season of the show have a one point during their settlement process how to share some of their identity to become, in quote, more Canadian, to help them fit into this new reality of living in this country. But even sharing some of their identity has not saved them from being bothered, from being treated like they do not belong here. Are there other people perhaps with a different skin color or different intonation, a better than them? It's the 21st century. And unfortunately for many of us who for some reason or the other, not called Canada home, these are the issues that we deal with day in and day out, being avert. But for me who is also a newcomer and is dealing with these issues, I'm reassured by people like Deshari who as you heard earlier says she is going to protect her identity at all cost. Oh boy, did I love it when she said even her accent? I mean, it's her accent and why should she be forced to change it for anyone? I'm also reassured by people like Nubia who is rediscovering herself. After all the microaggressions that she has had to experience in the last 10 years being in Canada, she's now saying no to internalizing these aggressions, the racism and all the damage and pain that it comes with for you, the person on the receiving end. She's instead talking about it, calling it out when necessary and bringing up her kids to be proud of their identity and of who they are. One Nubia did not completely lose the essence of who she was when she moved here. She absolutely felt of that. She was made to feel different and feel like she did not belong. You heard the story with a recruiter whose bias was on full display because of this Canadian experience that we'll talk more about in the coming episodes. But she has made it through and so has Bishali and so have I. Well, I'm still actually trying to make it to the other side. And that's why we tell these stories. To not only tell you the truth and correct the myth that the immigration process in Canada is seamless, but also we want to shed a light on the issues and barriers that newcomers continue to face in this country and perhaps prompt some positive change in the process. (soft music) Many thanks to all his salazar, Nubia Budal and Bishali Mitra. New Canadian voices is produced by the National Local Immigration Partnership sectariat in partnership with sighted media productions. Funding for the podcast is provided by immigration, refugees and citizenship Canada. A manager producer is Ren Bangert. I'm your host and editor, Damila La Unime. Until next time, thanks for listening. (soft music)