Optimal Hooftrimming | Jamie Sullivan

Welcome to the Dairy Farmers of Canada's Proaction Podcast series, Pads to On Farm Excellence, where we discuss priority topics for Canadian dairy farmers. My name is Stephen Roach. I'm the Director and Principal Consultant for an Animal Health Research Consulting firm called Acer Consulting, which is based in Guelph, Ontario. I'm part of a team that's working with the dairy farmers of Canada to help showcase Canadian dairy farming stories, industry updates, and the latest science, advice, and perspectives on high-priority topics that relate to proaction. You'll find this channel features a number of different series, from animal care to biosecurity and beyond. This podcast series features conversations, with farmers, veterinarians, nutritionists, hoof tremors, and other farm advisors, researchers, and many other industry stakeholders. Our next discussion takes place with Jamie Sullivan, a hoof tremor from Manitoba, an owner of RippleView Hoofcare. I sat down with Jamie to discuss his perspectives on what producers can do to get on the path to zero lameness. He discusses the importance of good record keeping to help benchmark and achieve goals, as well as what producers can do to make hoof trimming convenient and safe for everyone so that early intervention is possible. So, let's jump in! Welcome to the podcast, Jamie. It's exciting to be able to chat with you and learn a little bit more about your perspectives on lameness and hoof health specifically. Yes, Steve. Yeah, thanks for the call. I was kind of excited for the opportunity, and I think this is a really neat way to talk about lameness and just bring awareness and some options where we can improve on that. So your name, I think for many, is one that they've heard before, because you're quite active on social media. I think you've got a really great following when it comes to talking about lameness and proactive approaches to managing it, but for those that might not have a full sense of who you are and where you are, Jamie, can you give us a little bit of your background as it relates to lameness in the Canadian Deer industry? Yes, I'm a host, you're in Manitoba, based at a Carmen, just a small town outside of Winnipeg. I actually originally grew up in the barn in Ontario and where I started my trimming business back in 1994, so I've been in that just over 25 years. Ended up in Manitoba, mainly because that's where my wife was from and where we ended up moving here, but another opportunity, I kind of went trimming part kind of a little bit and was a sales manager for Althe Genetics and initially in Ontario and then they needed a spot at a Manitoba, so where my wife was from, I kind of fell in love with that West and moved out to Manitoba because of the sales manager's job with Althe Genetics and then eventually got part time the whole time when I did go as a sales manager, but eventually my passion was full-fals in lameness and went back into trimming full-time in Manitoba back in the early 2000s and so most of my life has been trimming feet and I learned a lot of the sales manager how to help farmers and probably shrink in my trimming business where I am now and got quite involved with the Hook Trimmer's Association and some researchers and just like our industry. When I first started it was mainly pieced all cows and trimming for shows and cost fires and a lot of cows were pasture based in the summer yet and now most of my clients are either monthly or weekly and probably close to 60 percent cows are milked in robots and probably 75-80 percent of the cows like Trim are milked through robots so the majority of my work is done with robots and the computer on my shoot is probably just as important as the knife on my hand to improve of health with my client so. Okay, Tim, what a change over a long career and excited to get a bit of a sense for some of the insights and experiences you had but pretty amazing that over 25 years how much the industry has changed. Yeah and it's as I say technology and research has helped us a lot and I hear you're just talking with a group of people not that long ago but when I first started we always said Langness was kind of 25-30 percent on industry average and we're still sitting at 25-30 percent so I know our cows we kind of demand a lot more out of them but you look like man we haven't actually seen a lot of improvement on Langness even though we know a lot more and the cause and the risk factors and how to improve we we still are kind of sitting at that threshold so. Yeah so we still got work to do. Yeah so it's that's why I say it's kind of exciting to have some of these podcasts and pro-action and some of the things that dairy farmers in Canada are doing I think is going to help us start to change that and lower that number quite considerably I think. Right well so let's jump into that so you know part of this podcast in the conversations we're having with a variety of people is to not just get a sense of what we can do about Langness but try and uncover a little bit more about why well why we haven't seen that 25 or 30 percent change all that much and of course lameness is caused by a whole host of different factors but at the core of the issue really is is hoof health and so Jamie from a trimmer's perspective talk to me about lameness what do you see out there what are you experiencing or handling with most when it most when it comes to conditions. Basically it's we kind of got to break Langness down into two categories one is you know the effect the infectious lesions like digital dermatitis footrat interdigital dermatitis which is basically digital dermatitis has a few names I carry words strawberry strawberry words and and even the interdigital dermatitis is basically just the same at that typical kind of heel work we see. Right and those both lameness issues are more of kind of a hygiene in that aspect and then there's the non-infectious lesions which mainly are solsers and light line disease. When we look at lameness it seems like a big kind of you know where do I start but it really breaks down even some of the research that we've done it breaks down to you know hairy warts digital dermatitis is number one almost 40 percent of the cause of lameness and then it's solsers and light line disease so it's once you start breaking it down then you can you know kind of come up with a game plan and where do we need to come up with protocols and set things up so. So you I like that breakdown and and of course you know infectious lameness tends to be a big conversation especially from that trim risk perspective. What do you see as some of the biggest culprits or put in other way risk factors for some of those specific issues you just mentioned? And as far as just on the infectious size of the disease. Sure or why not why don't we just open it up and do both. Yeah so I think the main thing is a cow doesn't come you know a herd isn't 0 percent lameness and then you know tomorrow it's at 30 percent so I do have some sympathy for the farmers that it's you know how do you have 30 40 percent and not that everyone has that in your herd but it's a gradual process and when you're working with the cows every single day you may not kind of see that early lameness case until it's you know it's an obvious case and then it's as we say there's so many risk factors it's kind of okay where do I start where did this happen and a lot of time when I've heard this come into a higher lameness it's you can you get it under control and you kind of trace it back. The UC comes down to you know either an expansion or some kind of big speed bump in the day-to-day operations which kind of took your attention away from some details and then um sometimes you realize there's a problem it's a big problem and it's like okay we're here do we backtrack and get this back under control. So what is it about hooves in the farm environment that make this such an issue why why is it so easy for for things to to get out of control if we're not sort of keeping on on top of things. I think it may need even if we go back to my career like when I said I first started it was mainly you know I followed it before the class of fire and teamed up the feet and you know it's kind of whole heard trims are getting ready for shows and a lot of times they're autumn pasture which is you know that the natural environment for the cows so if the foot does get a little bit on them out of balance and she's walking on natural ground or the ground's got a bit of give and she doesn't have to have that foot perfectly balanced to stay healthy but when we bring them indoors which in the long-term benefit for the cows we can control the you know the environment factors as far as you know heat stress and all that kind of stuff and bugs it's actually better for the cow but she's walking on a hard surface so it doesn't take much for that foot to get out of balance before she becomes lame. Something that usually analogy if we have a bit of a stone in our shoe we can walk for a while and even kind of almost hide that symptom that I got something in my shoe bother I mean and then but if we did that day in and day out and walking on concrete then you know an event you're going to start having knee problems or hip problems or foot problems or a bruised heel or that's what our cows are doing every single day so. And it can just it just gets you know well it can worsen pretty considerably pretty fast if we don't do anything about it I suppose. Yes exactly. So what are some of the most frustrating aspects of lameness from your perspective you mentioned that we you know all this time you know over your career you know we've talked about lameness we've we've identified it as an issue you know what is it that we're not focusing enough on it on farm or are we doing things and we're still not seeing the results and is that where the frustration lies. Yeah I think I'm coming from a trimmer perspective and hopefully when we finish this podcast I think it's not going to say I don't think we take lameness as much as a priority. I don't want to say that it's in a negative way that our our farms don't care about lameness because I don't I know I don't have a farmer that you know doesn't care if there's a lame cow. Sure. But it's taking that priority and our farmers are busy and we usually don't have an excess amount of help and you use a bit of an analogy it was a large client of mine that was very progressive very well managed and we kind of got we had a bit of a keelwork digital dermis tightest problem which we got under control pretty decent and then also we started to see a flare-up again and I can't say hey what's going on here we have to get these foot baths working again properly the way we had and the farmer came where in the discussion said you know Jamie come here and you just have hope health lameness on your mind but you know as a farm they have to deal with lameness have to deal with employees you have to deal with you know other health issues and they're they're a little short of help they're having you know some cell count problems and that's where the focus was and in the meantime you know some of the employees kind of blacked off a little bit on foot baths so he said they you know they addressed the somatic cell problems and now they're focusing back on to the hope health and the foot baths and stuff like that so I think it is tremors and advisors we do have to realize you know there's there's a lot of stuff going on the farm so how can we make it easier for our farmers that's when you know another issue comes up that there's you know we don't slack off in another part of the area as far as lameness and stuff like that I really like that that comment because it's so easy for advisors or really other farmers even you know whoever's coming on to that farm it's so easy to sort of pick out here's the things that need to be changed or need to be improved and it's you know again so easy to overlook all of the other things that that are maybe going right or all of the effort that's being put into managing so many things right and yeah there's only so many time so much time in a day and trying to manage every one thing it can be a real challenge. Yeah and that and it was a pleasant comment it wasn't that the you know my client was upset that I was directing a foot bath and it's just a comment that you know stuck with me ever since that you know if I see a problem I can't just say hey what are you doing wrong here we got to fix this is like okay there's a problem here how can what advice can I give my client that'll make life easier so you know we do adjust this problem and it doesn't happen again. Yeah and how can you fit that into an already overloaded schedule that you know is is is rot full of habits and routine that you know are there for a reason. Yes exactly. So what do you feel are some of the best practices for treatment treatment and control of lameness so we've got an issue you're going into the farm and and you're talking to your client and we're saying okay how do we get things under control if it's a digital dermatitis issue you know what are some of the things we're looking at from that standpoint. Okay so we take a digital dermatitis just kind of the example then and as I say now with the computers it's easy to you know kind of track this or see a trend that's gradually increasing before it's a big problem but it is digital dermatitis and we basically know it's kind of a hygiene and a preventive thing so I always when I talk about lameness more and more I'm trying to compare to mastitis so if we're in a parlor and or robot and the robot says you know you know we're seeing a increase in somatic cell or they're pre-stripping and we're seeing mastitis on the floor of the parlor then we don't wait till tomorrow or the next day to treat that mastitis we do it that day and we don't treat mastitis by just dipping your extra when we take you know the milker off we actually have a treatment protocol with our beds and you know putting in the proper antibiotics and withholding and I think we we need to start doing that with lameness if we see a cow that's in the parlor and there's a wart you know most of the cows just leave that parlor and you know and run them through a foot bath or we've got to start increasing her foot bath which we do if we're seeing an increase in digital dermatitis but that wartha we see it's like mastitis and actually shouldn't even be going through the foot bath we should be treating it with a proper protocol that we've set up with your trimmer in your bed and treat that legion and then okay now that we're seeing an increase in legions you know do we need a foot bath more you know what's the concentrations is the foot bath level right as far as volume you know if there's been a scraper issue and that's why the hygiene is not as good so it's a matter of treating the lameness that we see as far as that wart with a proper protocol and then you know how do we prevent it and as far as digital dermatitis I actually put out there as a goal either you know no more than one ulcerated legion per 100 cows per month or you know you're okay with or your whatever your management is and you're treating one cow a month for for mastitis we really shouldn't accept seeing any more than one ulcerated or painful dd legion a month yep yep good point does does anything that you've just said change for some of the other types or causes of lameness and it's still the same thing as they say if so if we go over to the non-infectious you know it's more of an environmental issue so if it's so ulcers it's kind of a standing issue is what we're we're finding so if as they say three reasons are digital dermatitis and then it's usually wanted to it either your farm has a increased number of soles or it's causing your lameness or it's white line disease you're going to have a bit of bulls but if your majority non-infectious lameness legion is sold or then we got to start looking at cow comfort or cows laying down that you know 11 12 13 hours a day that we know they need to be healthy and if it's a white line issue then we got to look at trauma issues is there some slipping going on are we you know are we handing our cows a little too fast do we need to work on some cattle handling there's some broken concrete or broken flats where they're you know they're causing a trauma issue on that outside protective wall in the hope from coming up with white line abscesses. So as a broad sort of recommendation when and how often should producers be getting a trimmer in to to look at some of these things it's kind of a farm by farm bases and as they say we've brought a cow in off pasture natural environment now she's on hard concrete or some farms have rubber but you know we don't necessarily want rubber everywhere it's just to kind of prevent lameness because they say we don't want our cows to stand and we want our cows to be in the part milking or to the robot milking to a feed bunk and then we want her laying down for you know minimum 12 hours a day and a lot of times my clients have rubber everywhere which we think well we're going to try and bring that comfort back in as far as standing on soft rubbers that are concrete and if it actually sometimes increases or a lot of times increases lameness because she is going to stand on that rubber longer because it is more comfortable than concrete but we don't want her standing and want her laying down and especially if the stalls aren't perfectly measured for that cow and she's going to get bang I got a bang my I got a bang my hips and everything to get down into that stall well I'm going to stand on this comfortable rubber a little longer before I lay down yep so it kind of depends on where but so where I start with most of my clients is that we want to pretty trim our heifers before calving at least six to nine weeks if possible just to get that foot in shape before she comes into that concrete because remember the heifers when she comes into calving to come through that first calving we know transition does it's fairly stressful on any animal but especially a first lactation animal and then she's got to go compete with a bunch of other cows and you know find her pecking order so if her foot is in balanced we're already know we're going to stress her out so if we can do those heifers before they cap get that foot in proper shape it's basically getting on a good set of running shoes before you start running an marathon then she's going to we're going to prevent some of that lameness and then after that once they're in that lactating herd I like to start at 80 days and know for their first trim before they get into that real peak production just make sure there's no issues get that foot rebalance and then and then do a trim before dry off and actually before you dry them off so it's not you dry them off and then you put them into your dry off pan and then bring them back again for trim it's nice to if we can prevent as many movements as we can once they're dry but when they go into that holiday period they just have to take their break and and put all their efforts into growing the calf and getting into another productive lactation so if we switch over to and we've already kind of addressed some of these but if we really look into how we prevent these lane these conditions that we've been talking about what then is the advice Jamie where how do we change our mindset from a preventative perspective I think this is our herd you're getting larger I would say my average herd size now is probably trimming more cows or herds that are milking three four five hundred and getting up to a thousand cows so we really need to prioritize our icon trim slots most trimmers I think we can capably trim about 50 cows today and do a real good job from you know the first gallon to the shoot to your last gallon the shoot so that they really need to prioritize those trim slots so I think a lot of times especially we get into a higher lane this and and we do we have to take care of those lane cows but I do a lot of time with real chronic cows that have had a severe lane this issue and there's some permanent structural damage that we're never going to get a hundred percent sound we're spending a lot of effort on those and then we start missing some root teens and preventative trims like those pre-fresh heifer trims for those 80 days and milk trim and it's and that's why we fall behind and there's actually been kind of actually down they through some research projects that you don't necessarily we have a lane this issue when we have 30 percent lane this is a high number a number we have to improve but if you take out the lane cow dodo those 30 percent that's a new lane case have never been laid before in their lactation or previous lactation a lot of times you're actually only down to five or 10 percent new lane cases and I'm doing more more when I'm trimming that I'm blocking those severe hemorrhages or early ulcers because we know if we leave it any longer there's actually going to be the pito bone actually changes actually basically kind of gets bone spurs on some bone growth then we have a sharp pito bone that's causing damage from the inside and then we have the outside factors so we can start doing more preventative trimming putting blocks on those severe hemorrhages isn't early ulcers talked to your vet about also administering any inflammatory at that time so you think of it when there's pain or an allegian on a foot you get inflammation and it's very similar if you have a concussion and if your brain is swelling and you got your hard skull around it if you have a soil through a white line in inflammation you have that hard wall we have inflammation and there's nowhere for it to go so if you can get the lesion trimmed out to get a block on it to give that infected claw some rest and then some anemone and inflammatory so the inflammation doesn't last too long then we're going to prevent that permanent damage to the pito bone that's really interesting too I mean it speaks to how important it is to address these early cases or these first cases because if we can if we can correct that we really prevent changes to the actual hoof itself which I'm sure is going to increase the risk of having issues down the line yes and there's one or they've been probably doing this for a good couple years through some you know lena symposiums we first start talking about you know we got to start treating these lesions earlier than what we are and treating them aggressively with blocks earlier than we have been I have a progressive larger that we started doing that and we really don't see those you know tip of what people call you know you see the ulcers and there's some more delicate procedures to trim out the ulcers of the white line we really don't see that and they've actually just gone through an expansion with Becca delayed which usually happens and we get into some overcrowding which normally would see a huge spike in lane that's but since we've been aggressively doing routine trims and putting blocks in those early hemorrhages or severe hemorrhages and ulcers that we're not seeing those chronic lane cows that most of the blocks that I'm putting on when I'm trimming they didn't come to my trim shoot because they were lame or noticeably lame by the farm staff they were just on that you know first lactation 80 day that's their trim protocol and she's getting in and I trimmed her in the severe hemorrhage and we put a block on her and she just there's no different production than we taking care of the lesion and she's walked along and you know there's no permanent damage she's not going to come back later lactation or most likely next lactation with with a lane this event and that's when we really start lowering those those numbers of lane this in the herd. Right so you you often talk about and I see a lot of your posts on social media talking about the path zero lameness is zero lameness achievable? I'd say definitely yes if you asked me 15 years ago if I would have I heard that averaging 45 kilograms on 900 cows I would say that's impossible and I think zero lameness is possible. Now does zero lameness mean that we're never going to have a cow limping in our herd? No that's unrealistic but I think we should be able to have more days where there is not new lane case that we need to identify that you know a cow comes up lane just like a cow comes up with my status we treat her immediately and that lameness event does not last that long you know basically either we catch her before she's very noticeable lane like she's probably feeling a little bit of lane this but she's not you know that local motion you know three definitely not local motion four yeah we're actually treating before they're physically lame and and being that loss in production and like seeing that loss in profitability so yes I definitely think zero lameness I don't care if you have 10 cows or a thousand cows it is definitely a goal that we can achieve. So given that how can producers how can people listening right now work with their trimmer to set themselves up for success? So in other words as a trimmer what would you like to see your clients or what are some of your clients doing to really improve or enhance your relationship and your ability to help them achieve that path to zero lameness? I think the first step is my best clients are ones that don't accept lameness. A lot of times my clients have fallen in the biggest panic said oh you got to get here as quick as you can I got a lane cow and I get there it's like it's it's that early lesion it's one that most a lot of people may not even noticely see that they're laying just because I say we all have busy schedules and especially the farm staff and as they're you know going to the barn because they got to you know go feed the cows or you know it was that trying harvest out here and then until this year and they got to get out to the field so you're going to the barn rather quick and you don't see that mild lane case. My farmers that are close to that zero lameness or at that zero lameness more days and not they notice those cows and get them treated right away so and my progressive clients are a lot of them even if I think every farm needs to have a I call them a first responder someone on farm that can treat that lane cow in between your trimmer visits but even if not I think every farm should have some kind of trim shoot you know on your size and how much trimming you want to do on your own depends on how elaborate a trim shoot that is but I can trim it on my regular clients during the day and have another client fool me and say I have a lane cow and I have to wash and disinfect my shoot set up my shoot trim the cow take my shoot down set up down and re-wash it again and get home it's probably not going to happen it's not feasible I can't provide that service you know probably at an affordable rate but I can stop in on a farm that has a farm shoot I'm away home from my regular client and trim a lane cow you know in 10-15 minutes we can have her looked after and back on the road and I get home the farmer goes on to their own business so I think we really need to look at you know how can we either have on farm staff or provide a quick easy way that your trimmer or your vet can come in and deal with the lane cows in between your regular trim visit I think I think your trimmer appointment if it's monthly you know every two weeks or weekly it really needs to be on those routine to you know 20 30 50% of your day but your trimmer's there on as weekly or by weekly appointment is dealing with lane cows then yeah we're not going to get to you know below over our industry averages now right yeah and so one thing you've mentioned a couple of times Jamie and I I thought I'd just sort of bring it up is is record keeping and and establishing benchmarks in you're even within your own farm that really help you to one get a sense of where you're at and to track progress and maybe a set goals with your advisors to help manage that I know you do this quite a bit can you give us a sense of of how that has really aided in a tool because we really you know with pro action with many other programs record keeping protocols is a huge component and and there's a lot of moaning and groaning about needing to do some of these things because it's more paperwork but you know there there many of these things are in place for for an important reason because they can offer a lot of value when it comes to making decisions it's setting goals what's your perspective with there and what's your recommendation for your clients when it comes to to record keeping yeah I really believe I've had a computer system on my trim shoot I think it's been since about 2008 I use host supervisor there's a variety of different ones out there now and the nice thing it's more and more just recently host supervisor can now interface with dairy comp right there's one thing for my host supervisor to be able to print off a report but it's like anything else like most offices have a whole lot of paperwork and most farms now have some kind of farm management system and more and more mice host supervisor system and most I think other systems if they're not they they will be or should be in the future that we can interface so that can quickly go back into the farm management system whenever they're using it that's dairy comp or you know there's a handful or more a different kind of management systems out there so that it's you don't have to shuffle through a whole bunch of papers to see where your issue is you can quickly pull up some grass or dynamics or pen for the issue is if saying you have a lane tell it's like me going to the doctor and saying I'm sick give me something to make me feel better we have to know what that lane this is is it a soil so there's a digital dermatitis is it a white line is it thin soils because we we can't come up with a protocol to fix the lane this problem if we're just saying it's a lane tell we have to figure out what what is that lane tell right no different if I go to doctor and say I'm sick give me something well do I have a flu or do I have bacteria is it common cold it's you know maybe it's something more serious than that so we got to look at it that way tooth on it oh record it's pretty tough especially the the way our herds are getting bigger and bigger it come up with protocols and then once you come up with a protocol you need some kind of number to measure from so for at this point we change this to see where it's changed if we can't measure that accurately how are we going to know if we're making improvement or not especially because some of the changes and the improvements we might get from those changes don't occur overnight right yeah it's exactly so it sort of just wrapping up here Jamie what would be your one piece of advice for Canadian farmers who are listening what would you like them to know or to think about as they approach a lameness on their farms I get first thing I'm going to say is make it a priority um you know make it set that goal zero lameness or if you're at you know I'm give you're at 50% lameness and you identify that you know half my herds that is some kind of lameness event right now and two months I want that down to 40% or 30% and then you set that goal and then you make a plan and you take action and I think it's important too that you know you don't change five different things at once because then you're not sure really what's what was it that was causing that so I think the big thing is make it a priority um treat lameness like you do mass status don't know this cow is a war today you want to parlor aspirin list because Jamie's coming to trim here in two weeks makes a re-gitter in the trim tube you know let's take action today either have farm staff trained to do that or have some kind of facility that you can quickly call your veteran trimmer to take care of that cow today and on the flip side for advisors who are listening other trimmers veterinarians and so on any comments for them um i'm going to say the same thing cake action like even though you're the nutritionist or the farm bet or you're the equipment salesman servicing the robots we all none of us can be successful if there's lane cows in that barn so if you see lane cows you know mention it to the farmer find out who the trimmer is um you know start a conversation and just hey have you noticed there's you know maybe a few more lane cows under was two months ago if I was in there you better remember to our farmers and the farm every day so sometimes they don't know those those cows that are grabbed you getting lane and it's good to have that independent set of eyes that don't see those cows every day that yeah obviously you're two months ago servicing your robots and you know your ex-cows list is way up and you know if I start looking around you see some more lane cows so you know make that contact with the trimmer your vet and your trimmer your nutritionist they should all be connected through WhatsApp or text messaging um and then stick down with the team and say because a lot of times you've been a nutritionist and feed some lane this issue and says you know farmer joe you should do this to get this under control and then the vet comes in for herd house they seem to have some more lane cows you should be maybe doing this to look after that and then the trimmer comes in on this trim visit this man i'm putting a lot more blocks that you need to do this and we probably just gave that farmer three different pieces of advice and he's gonna get it and get hay done and he's got you know he's gonna go get hay done because he doesn't know what's direction the goal so okay it's down as a team and come up okay this is where the priority is and we may have to give a bit of give and take as advisors which one i think is first priority be and let's look out to that first it's come up a game plan for a common client and then see where we go from there and then we'll address the other stuff as we see improvement good yeah good advice keep it simple and and try and get everyone on the same page yes exactly great well Jamie thanks very much for for taking the time to chat with us quite a bit of advice there and some good insights that i hope our listeners will be able to take in take home and apply either in conversations they have with their staff or their advisors and and and maybe change a little bit of their mindset as they look towards you know preventing and treating controlling lameness on their farms moving forward yeah just a final base you do have lameness it's it is quite as if it gradually you come into a higher lameness and once you take control of it it's actually quite amazing a lot of times how quickly we can turn that around and it's basically just stopping the snowball going down the hill one direction and getting it going the other way and once you get your lameness under control and get protocols up it's actually trim day isn't a stressful day anymore it's actually pretty pleasant for everyone yeah that's great all right well thanks again Jamie really appreciate it thanks for listening to the dairy farmers of Canada's pro-action podcast series the focus of this project is to try and help Canadian dairy producers make informed decisions about animal care on their farms and support them in striving for continuous improvement for more information please visit the dairy farmer of Canada website dairy farmers.ca and don't forget to like and subscribe for more content this podcast was narrated edited and produced by me Steven Roach thank you to our guests and to you for listening the project is hosted by the dairy farmers of Canada and partly funded by the Canadian Agricultural Partnership a five-year federal provincial territorial initiative thank you for listening