Oprah Reveals How One Person’s Belief CHANGED Her Entire Life

It was a challenging time. I'd already been raped at nine. I was being sexually assaulted by a family member and another family member. He did not know that. None of my teachers knew that. What those lunch-room conversations allowed for me was validation that bad things were happening to me but that I wasn't a bad person. That somebody saw that I was a good person. That's big. One of the most powerful people in the entertainment industry, a global force. What an own. Oprah! People cry because nobody's ever asked them, "How are you?" Were you okay in there? Every day his little check-in with me was a way of saying, "Are you okay?" But also, I see something in you. And I know you can do better. He said that your curiosity defined you. If it defined you then what defines you now. The interest in validating people and their own growth. That's what gives me tingles all over. I could start crying right now. I feel the gratitude for the life that I've been able to live. Wow. I always say, "Oh, bra, I have a bachelor's degree in general studies and a PhD in pain." Oh. Can you tell me this? And if it's improper, then let's take it out. But this is probably going to surprise you. Really? When did you begin to believe in yourself the way he did? Well. [MUSIC PLAYING] [INAUDIBLE] David, that guy's here. He's here for the person you believe to me. Before we start, allow me to thank my friends at Canva. This podcast is possible because they believed in us. Canva has a two-step plan. Go build the world's most valuable company and then do the most good at Canva. They give their product free of charge to schools and nonprofits because they are on a mission to create equal opportunities that empower people all over the world. Welcome to the person who believed in me. I'm David Begno. In this series, we sit down with remarkable people, big names in their field. And we talk about the person who changed their life. For me, this podcast is about big people talking about the person who believed in them before the world did. And our first guest on this podcast is none other than Oprah Winfrey. None other than-- And for me, I must say, there is no more meaningful guest, especially to start this with than you because of how much the show and you changed my life. Yeah, I love that beautiful letter you had. Collegor feet for me. Dear Oprah, as I launch, do good and with this podcast, there's no guest whose presence means more to me than yours. A profound part of who I am, both as a human and as a storyteller, is shaped by watching you live your truth and introduce the world to people living there as to the Oprah Winfrey show. The life lessons I learned from that show laid the foundation for this project, the person who believed in me. Thank you for believing in me and for saying yes with gratitude. David, oh, so well written, too, Mike. Beautiful. I will save it forever. You know, I have letters from everybody that I've talked to in the world that was important to me. And I have boxes, boxes, boxes of them. It's my treasure. From her early days as a student with big questions to becoming one of the most influential voices of our time, Oprah has spent her life helping others see their own words. She built a career, a global community on empathy, curiosity, and connection. But behind every great journey is someone who said, I believe in you. And for Oprah, that person was a seventh grade teacher who noticed her curiosity opened a door and helped her to step through it. Over the next hour, we'll explore how the belief took root, how it continues to ripple through everything she has built since. - Hmm, that's good. That's a good intro. - We're gonna start with this. - Oh my gosh. (laughing) Oh my gosh. - Do you remember when that was taken? - Yes, that's Mr. Abrams on the Oprah show. - Mr. Eugene Abrams. - Mr. Eugene Abrams. Wow. You know, I was thinking I did not have any record of, I knew I was gonna be talking about him today. And I told Nicole, my comms, and you know, look in my Lincoln high school book and see if there's one of those little tiny pictures of the day, 'cause I thought that was the only photograph. I have never seen this. - Yeah. - How did you get this? - From his daughter. - From his daughter. - From his daughter. - Wow. - In fact, watch this recording. - Wow. - Oprah, from the time I, my father met you, he would come home with tales and he would say, there was chaos in the cafeteria. There was all this noise, but there was this one bright, bright young woman sitting there. And he would tell us that he'd give you a book. And then the next day you would come home and you have read, he read the book overnight and would discuss it. He knew you were special. He knew there was something about you that separated you from all the other students in that cafeteria. And that's why he worked so hard to get you into Nikole high school. He saw something in you and he said, you had it. And he would always say, it, there was something about you that just stood out. And then you would help people. - Oh my, dear Jesus. That is Judy. - I helped you. - Oh my goodness. Now, this is such a full circle moment for me because when I was building my school, that's what I looked for. - In South Africa. - In South Africa. When I was building my school in South Africa, I was looking for the girls who had it. And I never described myself as having it, but I was looking for the girls who had that same quality that I knew that I had growing up that's really indescribable. You either have it or you don't. It's the ability to be resilient in the face of challenges. It's the ability to see the world as you believe it can be and not necessarily as what's around you or what people are telling you. It's the ability to believe bigger than what people see for you and being able to hold onto that vision for yourself. And when I went from school to school, trying to pull girls out of like little, you know, schools underneath the tree where there's a hundred kids sitting on the ground. And I would say, I'm looking for the girl who has it. I'm looking for the girl who has it. And the fact that he saw that in me is pretty incredible. - Speaking of schools, do you recognize this place? - Yes. (laughs) You know where this came from? - The yearbook. - The yearbook, The Quill. - Yes. - 1967. So I was only there for seventh and eighth grade. - Right. - And it was Mr. Abrams, this man, who used to see me just as his daughter, her name is Judy. - Judy. - Judy, said he would see me in the cafeteria. And there would be kids throwing spitballs and yelling and screaming and crazing. I always hated the lunch hour because it was just so much chaos. And I'm an introverted heart. And so I felt. - Which people find hard to believe. - I know. I'm an introvert who knows how to have extroverted tendencies. But I am really, I gather my strength, I gather my sense of being, I gather myself in the silence of myself. And have always done that. I think because I was raised on a farm with my grandmother in solitude with just my grandmother and my grandfather who I now believe must have had dementia. But he was just a shadow in that house. I never had any real contact or really real memories except he was just always lurking in the background. And so it was my grandmother and it was me. And I became very content making up stories for myself with myself based on stories that my grandmother was reading to me and then I later learned to read myself. But yes, I am more introverted than I am extroverted. You had gone from, was it Nashville? So let's set the scene. Before seventh grade, you had gone from Nashville to live with your mother in Wisconsin. So here it is, I live with my grandmother till I was six. Move to Wisconsin for kindergarten and first grade. Because I got myself moved in the first grade, you know that whole story. So kindergarten and first grade and then moved back to Nashville, moved to Nashville with my father for the first time. So I'm like meeting my father for the first time. Vernon Winfrey. Vernon Winfrey, then Nashville. Remember back to Wisconsin. Wisconsin. And then back to Nashville. So the time you go back to Wisconsin, you're living with your mother Vernita Lee. Yes. And you go to the school. It's seventh grade. Do you remember your first memory of Mr. Eugene Abrams? My first memory is always in the cafeteria. 'Cause I guess he must have been given cafeteria patrol. So I don't remember him as a teacher of mine. He wasn't a teacher of mine. He just was on duty, patrolling the wild and crazy cafeteria. And would see me every day. I'd be the kid sitting in the corner while all the other kids did the one, all of their crazy stuff. I'd be sitting in the corner with a book. Of course, that is the way to be completely ostracized by your fellow fellow students. And he, I remember he would just walk by and time and again. He would always speak to me and he would ask me, "What are you reading?" And sometimes he would give me a book. And then I would go home and read the book. I would devour books. Books were my companions, my friends. It was my way of seeing a world beyond my own world. Because at the time I was living with my mother in Milwaukee, she had two other children, my half-brother and sister. And we were on welfare and doing the thing that you do. You're just trying to survive and get through every day. And just having someone to see me and appreciate the fact that I was a reader and not to be made fun of for being a reader. Because I was a lot in my community made fun of for talking the way I talked. Oh, you're trying to act like you why you talk and why you talk. And so having somebody appreciate that or value that was really important to me. So I started to look for him every day. He's going to come again in one day. He just stopped and said, "You're not like all the other kids." You know that, right? And I said, "Yeah, I can't know that." And he said, "I am going to get you out of this school and I'm going to put you into school where you can actually be really challenged." And that's what he did. So we're going to come to that in a moment. There was a quote from him where he said, "I gave her a book and she came back the next day and she had read all of it." Yeah, I don't remember what that book was. No, but all of it. Yeah. But because that's what I would do. What do you have to do when you're a kid? Would you go and like seek him out after that? Like you see him and get out? Yes, I would. Yes, I would because this is a thing. I wanted to read this to you. I brought this little poem I wanted to read to you. Okay. It reminded me of this because another one of my great mentors is, you know, I know most people think I'm going to talk about Maya Angel. Maya Angel who believed in me before. But by the time I met Maya, I already had a pretty strong belief in myself that I was going to be okay. But Mr. Abrams, at the time that I met Mr. Abrams, I still had not gone through one of the worst phases of my life. I was actually being sexually assaulted at the time that I met him. And so having a voice, a voice outside of yourself saying to you, "You're okay when you have that going on and all the stuff at home going on." But here's a poem I wanted to read to you from that Maya Angel who had written, it says, "Line thinking last night, how to find my soul at home, where water is not thirsty and bread loaf is not stone. I came up with one thing and I don't believe I'm wrong that nobody, but nobody can make it out here alone. All alone, nobody. But nobody can make it out here alone. There are some millionaires with money they can't use. Their wives run round like bansches. Their children sing the blues. They've got expensive doctors to cure their hearts of stone, but nobody, nobody can make it out here alone. All alone, nobody, but nobody can make it out here alone. Now if you listen closely, I'll tell you what I know, storm clouds are gathering. The wind is going to blow. The race of man is suffering and I can hear the moan because nobody, but nobody can make it out here alone. Damn, I've never heard that Maya poem. Wow. Isn't that a good one? Wow. That's a good one. And it's so true. Wow. None of us, no matter where you are in your life, made it alone. There might have been a Mr. Abrams who was prominent and you saw that person every day. But I think every word spoken, like Maya also says, my favorite teaching of hers is that your legacy isn't one thing. It's every life you've touched. Every word spoken that allows a person to see themselves in a better light helps them. Not feel so alone. And I remembered, you know, you heard me tell the story of when I was just a little, what I was speaking in Nashville and I was, I think it was eight years old at the time. And Tish Hooker, who was the wife of John J Hooker, who was running for governor, came up to me. They were, you know, campaigning for governor and they were doing all the black churches. And she stopped me after service and she took my hand, my chin in her hand and she said, my, my, you have such beautiful brown eyes and such beastung lips. Now I used to hate my lips. I used to feel like my lips were too big and my nose was too wide and I was doing everything to try to minimize that. And her telling me that I had such beautiful brown eyes and beastung lips allowed me to see myself differently. And I never forgot that. And I was eight years old, which was it. So whenever I see little girls and oftentimes little girls who everybody else doesn't say, oh, that's a pretty little girl, I will purposely go up to that little girl and say something to that little girl about her beauty, about her charm, about her brains, about her being intelligent, about something because I know it's an impression, even from a stranger, it leaves an impression that lasts. I thought you might want to know, but this podcast is at the heart of a company I founded called Do Good Crew. I've spent 25 years telling stories. It used to be the bad news and now I want to focus on the good news. The everyday heroes who are doing extraordinary things. You can join us. We do live events, but we also have a newsletter. It's free. And you can sign up for it by going to www.TheDoGoodCrew.com. Am I understanding you to say that Mr. Abrams came into your life and believed in you at a point when you had not yet been rooted in believing in yourself? Oh, I didn't know anything. I was telling you, I was being sexually assaulted on a regular basis. I had already been raped at 9. I felt like I am just some, I must have a scarlet letter. There must be something about me that attracts people to abuse me. What I now know it is is that people see that you come from a broken home. You don't have a strong family life. You are a lonely kid. You are an introverted kid. That's the kid they're going to look for. They're not looking for the strong, outgoing, you know, I will tell on you in a minute kid, they're looking for the kid that looks vulnerable. And so now I realize that is your own scarlet letter that you're wearing when you are being preyed upon by people who are looking to do terrible things to children. So Mr. Abrams coming into my life at this time when that was going on and there was just, you know, many times I, we didn't even know if we were going to, you know, something that I'd come home and the lights weren't on. The electricity had been turned off because there wasn't enough money. My mother was working as a domestic while also, you know, on welfare. And it was, it was a, it was a challenging time. What did those lunch room conversations with him give you that you weren't getting someone? Oh my God. Don't make me, I'm not going to cry. So what those lunch room conversations allowed for me was validation that I wasn't a bad person that bad things were happening to me, but that I wasn't a bad person that somebody saw that I was a good person. And allowed me to feel seen just to feel seen. And I, I recognize as do you in all of these years of interviewing people that whether you do a story on them or not, just spending time with people and asking them questions about their lives. I mean, there used to be a time where people would say, well, how do you get people to cry like that? Why do people come on your show and cry? People cry because nobody's ever asked them, how are you? You know, nobody actually says, how are you really doing? Are you okay? It's, it's, it's why a couple of years ago, a few years ago, and Elmo said, is everybody okay out there? Everybody went nuts because everybody isn't. There's a damn puppet ask. Damn puppet ask is everybody okay? And it's because most people, particularly in our world, I think we do a lot of communicating in terms of social media, but nobody is really asking, are you, are you okay? Are you okay in there? And what Mr. Abrams did for me every day, his little check in with me was a way of saying Are you okay? But also I see something in you and I know you can do better. He actually said to me, I know you can do better. You can do better. You have the potential to do better. We used to have lunch together all the time back when I was 13. I had then moved from Nashville where Mrs. Duncan was my teacher. Two Milwaukee Wisconsin. The first man is the person who is responsible for getting me into one of the best high schools in Milwaukee at the time and still is. When integration of public schools there was just beginning and officials had opened the doors for 16 black students. And this man, Mr. Abrams, was the man who made sure that my name was included. Mr. Abrams, come on here. Mr. Abrams! Hey! [Applause] Good to see you. Good morning, Joe. I remember sitting in the cafeteria at Lincoln High School every day. What was I doing there? Asking questions. You were the most curious 13-year-old I ever ran across. I was on a project for the university in your junior senior high. And you were the funnest lunchtime. You always had a book and you always had a question. Yeah, I do remember. Always reading during lunchtime. Okay. And you always came up with a question and the average student would ask the question to put answer number seven down on the paper and you were just curious. So Mr. Abrams was an educator from the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. And he was conducting university research when he first spotted you. That's why he was at the school. Oh, he wasn't a teacher. He was doing research at the school. That's what to me makes this so incredible. Mr. Abrams was essentially passing through. Oh, my God. He worked from the university and this little girl was someone who stuck out to him in such a meaningful way. I did not know that. And a quote from him was, you were the most curious 13-year-old girl I had ever run across. Wow. I had ever run across. So in his research, he sees this girl starts to recommend books, starts to ask questions and then himself gets asked, hey, we need a few black kids to send to what a white school. And he said, I know the kid. I know the kid. I know the kid. You got to take this girl. Yeah. Her name is Oprah Winfrey. Yeah. And then you went to this school. And you were in a bus to cross town. On the bus were some domestic workers, some mates. And you were quoted as saying at one point, that was when I realized I was poor. How so why? Well, I think as long as you're in an environment where everybody is just like you. I mean, everybody goes to the same grocery store and you're eating the same things and you're basically dressing the same. It's just life is just what it is. It didn't occur to me that I was considered poor until I was bused to the suburbs. It wasn't like busing, you know, like kids were actually put on buses. I actually got on the bus every morning with all of the domestic workers, a city bus, a city bus, a school bus, not a school bus. And sometimes my own mother would be on that school bus. Had it to work. Had it to work because the school that I went to was in the suburb of Fox Point where she worked for this Jewish family. And so, and that was, that was embarrassing to me sometimes. Like when my mother would be on the bus with all the other maids and then I would be getting off of the school, going to the school. And I didn't want people to know at the time that my mother was a maid. Now, I am, I can honestly say that I am proud to come from, you know, a history of domestic workers because what else was available to an uneducated black woman in the 50s and 60s and early 70s. And my mother, my grandmother actually expected that that's what I would become. You know, I've told that story of my grandmother saying you better watch me now because one day you have to learn how to do this for yourself. This she was hanging up clothes and I knew that is not going to be my life. But my grandmother had no greater expectation up for my life than that I would become a domestic worker. And so that's Oprah what fascinates me. So the experience you saw of your grandmother was being a domestic worker of your mother. Where was it that you saw something that was bigger than that that led that girl to become this woman? Well, you know, I was when I got into my father, the notion of what you could be changed, but it didn't grow to extend to the idea that I could be anything other than a teacher, which I always thought it was going to be a teacher because of not because of Mr Abrams, but because of my fourth grade teacher. Mrs Duncan who by the way was on that when you had Mr Abrams on the show. Mr Duncan was on to I know that was that was so good. So Mr Duncan was my fourth grade teacher who I not only did she I don't know if she believed in me, but she certainly recognized that I had something going on for myself. And because of Mrs Duncan, I always wanted to be a fourth grade teacher. I really wanted to be an actress, but my father said no daughter of mine is going to that's not going to happen. Forget that because Hollywood is casting couches and forget that that is not going to happen to a daughter of mine. So I had just decided to give up on that dream. And then there's this you know, fateful moment that I'm in the misfire prevention contest. That fateful moment. And I had no I had no thought had never thought about what I would be other than a teacher. I thought well I will major in speech and drama and I will teach theater because I can't be in the theater. And it was my 16 year old self that had turned on the today show that morning and I saw Barbara Walters. And when I was in the midst of this contest being asked a question about what do you want to do with your life? What do you want to be when you grow up? All the other answers had been taken that already been two girls that said they wanted to be teachers. So I really just was just trying to think of what search and what can a woman do? And I said I wanted to be a journalist and tell stories in order to help people to see their lives differently. I don't know. I'm a channel that answer. And so seeing a Barbara Walters. And you know, I remember also when I was in Baltimore and already started my career in television. And I had said to an agent that I had in Baltimore that I just wanted to have my tape submitted David. Would you please submit my tape to Good Morning America so that I could substitute for Joan London. Wow. And this agent said to me, I'm not going to even do that because they've already got a black person. I go, no, they don't. They really don't. And they said, well, they've got Brian Gumpel on in BC. But he's on, he's on, he's on Channel 4. He's on NBC. They go, well, there's only going to be one. And so he would not submit my tape. I need to take a moment just to thank Canva for backing this podcast. Their support is what makes these conversations possible. Canva's guided by a clear idea. Build something incredibly valuable and then use it to do real good in the world. That's why they provide their tools free of charge to schools and nonprofits, helping to create equal access and opportunity for people all over the world. Before we get back to Mr. Abrams, I also want to bring up where Dennis Wanson, when he puts you on the open screen show. Oh, yeah. I'll never forget the story you tell about that where Dennis said, I'm going to give you this show during Come True. But I want you to do two things. Don't change who you are, what you look like and how much you weigh. Yeah. I want you to just stay the same. I know. That's what America loves. Yeah. Well, it's so interesting because I had been brought to Baltimore and in the midst of this great big campaign of what is an open, an open, I was on the, I was set to anchor the co anchor, the six o'clock knows for a year. The same year the Barbara Walters was doing it with Harry Reesner. We know. Yeah. And so, oh my gosh. I remember that was the biggest, well, you two young, come on, I'm a student of broadcasting of course. So, yes, that was the biggest thing. But six o'clock in Baltimore, that's where they told you we're two emotional reading the news. That was too emotional. And I was also told that my nose was too big. I didn't say that. Nose was too big. Your eyes are too far apart. You need to do something with your hair. The whole thing. The whole thing. And, you know, even at the time that I was being told this. It wasn't I was doing an interview with Trace Ellis Ross for Hulu about black women in hair. That I was telling her that story. Which is a good watch by the way. Yes. Yes. And I was telling her that story, David. And she said, wow, that is just such a misogynist, you know, racist thing. And I was like, it had never occurred to me. You didn't receive it that way. I did. I never, you know, what I thought it was about me not being pretty enough. I thought, see they wouldn't say that to me. - So you believed it and you thought you still in the truth? - Yeah, I thought he was. - Wow. - Yeah. - Wow. All right, so Mr. Abrams, you end up getting accepted to the school, you get bus crossed out and somebody paid your tuition. - Who did? - I don't know. - Do you still don't know today? - I don't know who paid my tuition. - And Mr. Abrams didn't know either when he was on the show in the late '80s. - I didn't even know there was a tuition. I thought it was a public school. - I thought it was a public school. - I thought about Mr. Abrams again when I started my school. I thought about giving kids, because me providing a whole school, where everything is paid for, which I still do to this day in South Africa, was his version of taking me out of-- - Wow. - Lincoln and putting me-- - That's huge. - Yeah. - That's huge. What I also love is I read that he never tried to stop you from the questions. He didn't try and mold you. He encouraged you to keep asking. But what I wonder is, were there other people who thought, "My girl is such a pest. She won't shut up." - Oh, yeah. I mean, I was one of those kids who was made fun of for my curiosity and my speaking-- - Because the kids at that age did not think it was cool. - They did not think it was cool. - Right, right. - And they did not think, you know, just even speaking, you know, having your verbs agree with your subjects was cool. - Addictions, yeah, addiction, all that stuff. All that, all those things that were important to me, as a reader, as a person who reads, and also a person who read out loud. So I loved reading out loud to myself. As Maya always said, poetry should always also specifically be read out loud. And so, having somebody like Mr. Abrams, which I now have a picture of, was fundamental. Was just fundamental. I think all of us have, I believe in guardian angels. I believe you have ancestors and spiritual guides and all that. But I do think that people come in the form of the flesh here on earth to be a part of our life's journey. And different people offered different things. - I have to tell you what this offered to me when I did my research. One thing I loved about the Oprah show was no matter how famous you were or how wealthy you were or connected you were. You always conducted yourself in a way that made us see something of ourselves in you. And I remember that note that that woman from Ann Arbor, Michigan wrote you in 1987, where she said, "Oper seeing you be the best of yourself makes me want to be the best of myself." - Isn't that my epitaph? Isn't that just it? - There is nothing better. - I just feel to this day there's nothing better. And so when I read what happened with you and Mr. Abrams and the lunchroom, I saw myself in that, not because I'm a voracious reader like you are. But because teachers were my refuge, I grew up gay with Tourette. And so if I wasn't being teased for being a freak show because of the Tourette, I was a fag and a queer and all that. And in Deep South Louisiana. - Why don't you assist each of the consciousnesses? - I was all of that. And so in Deep South Louisiana, being gay was worse than being the freak show with my Tourette. And so every day, every day, I would go and take refuge with a teacher who would let me sit in her classroom during lunch. And it got to be so much that the teachers would say, "David, you can't come in here anymore." And so I would go to the next teacher. - Wow. - And just ask if they'd let me sit in. They didn't have to talk to me. But just, and that's where adults became my safe space, my safe place, because the playground was not. And so in a way, you also were a little bit of a loner in that lunch. - Oh, yeah, very much so. - And I thought, "I'll be damned if I don't see myself in Oprah's pain at that time." - So. - I never knew that. - Because I haven't shared a ton of it. - I never knew that. - But yes. - I want you to know. - And Mr. Abrams was actually by refuge. I didn't have a classroom to go sit in. - Yeah. - But every day he would come and talk to me. And I just, I'm stunned to know that he wasn't even a teacher there. He was there doing research. - He was leaving their full time. - What was his research on what? - That's a good question. - Yeah. - You stumped me on that one. - Okay. - Here's a great question. - Well, I knew that I had the ability to communicate. Oh, I tell you what. He was another person who, I don't know if he believed in me, but his name is Wentley Fips, who has been a friend of mine now for four decades. But Wentley Fips, I was doing something backstage at some event in Baltimore. It was like 78. And Wentley Fips came up to me. He's a wonderful baritone singer. And he said, "God has impressed me to tell you. God has impressed me to tell you that you will be speaking to millions of people in your lifetime. And you will have great influence. And you will make a difference in people's lives beyond anything you have ever imagined." - How old were you? - I was 28. So, like 1978. So I was 74. I was 28, right? - Sometimes that goes to one person's ego. - No, you didn't go to my ego because I said to him in Baltimore. - Here? That's going to happen in Baltimore. And he goes, "God did not tell me where it's going to happen." But God has. I mean, when somebody stops you and says, "Young lady, you may speak to you for a moment." Yes, he goes, "God has impressed me to tell you." And I was like, "Now that resonated with me because shortly after that, I was doing this show called People Are Talking." He was like a psychic, something person, said something very similar to me. Like, "You're going to be speaking to millions of people." And again, I was like, "On the show in Baltimore, I was sick and I happened. I don't see it. I don't see it happening." - You never forget people saying stuff like that. - Yeah. - I have some favorite Oprah quotes that we're going to get to in a moment. Just a couple more questions before we wrap up Mr. Abrams. He said that curiosity, curiosity defined you. If it defined you, then what defines you now? - I would say the interest in validating people in their own growth. I have real interest in validating people in their own growth. That's what defines me. That's what makes me. - There is still this wonder that isn't you. How do you keep that alive today? Because a lot of people would have either burned out or would have said, "I had a great run." But you're still doing meaningful, moving, influential things today. - Well, I think one of my greatest assets is that I have learned to live in that present moment thing. I have learned to live in that moment. gratitude for the life that I've been able to live. I am in constant awe. You know, there's this wonderful spiritual that the Hayley Jackson used to sing, how I got over. That's going to be at my, that's the last song for me going out. How I got over, my soul looks back in wonder how I got over. And many times I'm walking around my property in Manacito and I will look up at the lawn or I'll be walking along the road, which is now all graveled and whatever. And I think about that dirt red road in Mississippi that I used to walk on. And the journey, David, from Mississippi, rural Mississippi, no running water, no electricity, outhouse to here, where I am now in my life, in that in that particular space in Manacito. But just where I am in my life, the journey from my grandmother's front porch to my front porch is, it just leaves me in awe, wonder and just great gratitude. And I often think that it could only happen in the United States of America. Well, you've been vocal about how great you think this country is. Yeah. Yeah. Rapp wrapping up a couple of questions. There was so much pain in my younger life. There was so much pain in your younger life. If you could go back and relive that life, would you want to erase that pain? No, we're not. No. There's an old song that Maya used to sing. She used to say, I wouldn't take nothing for my journey now for my journey now for my journey now. I wouldn't take nothing for my journey now. I wouldn't take nothing for that journey because every piece of it, even the, you know, sexual abuse, the physical abuse, the feeling alone, the feeling isolated, the feeling that nobody cared has created a deeper sense of empathy in me for other people. I mean, I would not have had the, I so agree. The wouldn't you agree? I so agree. You just wouldn't have, I mean, look at, look at the stories that you do around the world here. It's why I am where I am today. It's why it's absolutely. I didn't graduate from an Ivy League college. I didn't have a famous last name. I had, I turned, I always say, Oprah, I have a, I have a bachelor's degree in general studies and a PhD in pain. And that pain is what has allowed me to sit at tables like this one with Oprah Winfrey. Oh my God. But isn't it true that nothing is wasted? Not a damn thing. Not one thing is wasted. I would want to replay it again. Yeah. But I would not erase it because if you erase that, you erase this. I know Sydney 48 and I used to have this conversation all the time. Oh, I did. I love him. About how you change one thing. You change one thing. And you throw the whole thing off course. Yeah. Amen. Yeah. And so, you know, my being, you know, abused as a kid and all that I endured because of that, the secrecy and the, you know, the shame and the feeling of betrayal and all of that has really helped me and deepened me as a human being in understanding what that feels like for other people. And it is brought about compassion in ways that I would never have had it. I just wouldn't have had it. You just wouldn't have, you wouldn't have known. I will tell you what I've to, we're not going to do quotes because I, you've already heard them. You're quotes. So I'm just saying to you what I say to everybody. Okay, what? I was 18 years old. I was in my underwear. I was laughing at Louisiana and I was running around and the live your best life season of the Oprah show console. And I was a closeted gay kid. And so there were jib shots going through the garden and pastel colors. And I remember thinking myself by myself, this is the gayest shit I ever see. And by the end of the episode, I'd cried, clapped, jumped up and down and run around in the apartment. And at four o'clock, every day from that day forward, it became my church. It became the place that was safe. It became the place where I heard self-help things that I had never heard. And it became the place where I saw the window to a world that I wanted to pursue. Really? So I just want you to know that. Oh my gosh. Can you tell me this because I often wonder, and I don't know if I've ever had this. But what's it like to know your gay and have to hide that? What's it? What's that like? Are you? Are you? Are you always wondering somebody's going to see it or think it? This is probably going to surprise you. I was okay living in the closet for the rest of my life. Really? Because the dream of being who people thought I couldn't be was more important to me than living authentically as a gay man. So I was happy to put that away. Remember, I had never seen a gay man on national television until Anderson Cooper said, I'm gay. I had never seen a gay man. So I was like, it's okay. As long as I can be a story, I mean, I dreamed of that. I we switched to six like movies. But you were saying earlier though that kids called you, you know, the worst names. All the worst names. Yeah. So they're calling you those names and you believe that you are gay. So do you believe you are the names that they're calling you? No, no. I knew better. And I don't know why I didn't go into drugs and alcohol or try to take my own life. I just had a sense of belief in myself when nobody believed in me. I mean, I was the kid in the corner of the room, which is why when I walk into a room, I often gravitate to the person in the corner. Yeah. Right. But for whatever reason, Oprah, I think based on a faith in my family, I knew that I wasn't I wasn't what they said. Yeah. I knew that. And I often say if I wrote a book, it would be called, how television saved me from myself. Because when I wound up on television at 18 years old, the same kids who bullied me, their mothers and fathers would come and say, did you see that? Bag no boy television. Wow. He's good. And it changed the conversation at school from that bag to, oh, he's on television. And so television for me was a lifesaver before it ever became true journalism. It's rescued because it changed the conversation from Fag and Freak Show to Oh, honey. He's on TV. He's on TV. That's impressive. Yeah. I got to finally be impressive. What did your family know that you were gay? My mother at two years old asked her friends. David walks around in my yellow canary high heel shoes. Do you think, do you think he's gay? And they say cities two years old. Their bright colored shoes. Like, why? You know that song by Alabama, the country band called Mama knows Mama always knew. And I wish I could have opened up to her. But I didn't. And it caused a fractured relationship. We're close and we're wonderful. But I could never open up to them. So I would go home and everything was, I lived a lie. Everything was perfect and good. How are you doing? I'm great. I'm great. But it was awful and it was tormenting. And so what happened was at 18 years old, I had a teacher who said, what are you running from? What are you running from? And she looked at me. I told her my whole story and she said, that's all fine. But you have to change your roadmap. Because if you keep driving down those same roads, you're not going to get out of this fortress that you built around yourself. Was she a gay teacher? No, no. Strait is can be. Strait is good. Strait is good. Wow. Interesting. Interesting. So who was the person who believed in you? That person. And you know what I heard? It's the book you and the doctor wrote. What I heard was in that moment, what I heard was not what's wrong with you. Yes. I heard her say, what happened to you? And then all of a sudden it was like, and it came out. Wow. And I don't have any attachment to the pain and the trauma anymore, right? Yeah. But that trauma ended up becoming my testimony. Yeah. Ah, yeah. That's right. You turned that into a testimony. I love it. So from the bottom of my heart. All right. Mine to yours. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm Oprah Winfrey and the person who believed in me was Eugene Abrams. This show was created by me, David Begnau. Our executive producers are Ellen Rockamora and Olivier Delphaus. Our associate producer is Griffin Hamilton. Our booker is Sully Block. Director of photography is Foster Parks. Our theme music was created by Slippstream, post-production and edit done by Longway Digital. This podcast was brought to you by our friends at Canva. If you're interested in more stories about people doing good in this world, go sign up for our free newsletter at www.theDouglas.com.