'Oppenheimer' With Sean Fennessey | Nolan Revisited

hello welcome back to house of r i'm joida robinson that's the beautiful luminous malia rubin joining us today it is the man the icon himself the atomic bomb of cinematic discourse sean fantasy thank you thank you for having me oh my gosh thank you for being here for our long-awaited out of order oppenheimer podcast meta non-linear storytelling here on house of r yes this has been much like the launch of the bomb rescheduled at least three times but we're going to make it happen today yeah due to rain and another a number of other things okay so we are going to get to a lengthy healthy discussion and close our nolan rewatch right observe the north american dad 50s great polo collection he enters his vehicle information on carvana an offer appears in minutes remarkable he squints reads it again smiles and says dang dang that's a good offer the highest form of approval no haggling no hassle no one called him boss he's still on the couch astonishing sell your car today on carvana.com pickup fees may apply this episode is brought to you by the home depot black friday is happening now at the home depot and they've got just a tree for your style space and budget make the holidays merry and bright with artificial trees starting at 49 then make it your own with ornaments and trimmings for every holiday style find your perfect tree at the number one christmas tree retailer and get low prices guaranteed on all your festive favorites at the home depot exclusions apply visit home depot.com slash price match for details after this all right program reminders what do we want to tell folks uh about what's coming up well we're continuing to cover lanterns the show that we're quite enjoying so those pods will be dropping on mondays those deep dives you picked lanterns in the house of our hype draft good for you yeah watch the premiere enjoyed it didn't see episode two okay into it i will continue to watch it have you ever seen a more handsome person than hal jordan in specifically hbo's lanterns i mean i know he's a long time paramour of yours um yeah i like the man i think he's handsome yeah you know i aspire to such rugged but but but unfussy masculinity i'll never quite get there but it'd be nice if i could just put on like a suede jacket i kind of like your fussy masculinity thank you thank you many people are calling it that put in the market on it it's pretty good uh in addition to lanterns next week i believe the second podcast is buffy season five wow part one at long last we will be resuming our buffy rewatch so that's a thrill that's exciting it's true for that i've seen full for love so my life is forever altered we did do our look ahead for the rest of the year uh at the live show in baltimore and there's a lot of great stuff coming wildwood made it very high on my hype list uh for this fall i was invited to a screening and i dropped your name and i said joanna robinson will need to see this film with me they said great i'll let you know about that after the recording okay i like uh um sean yes wait hold on we're not gonna blow past our trip to baltimore so i you know i've not spoken to either of you since you you traversed the baseball stadium and one of you i sent you through a first pitch you i yes you did and i left you an instagram comment but we're gonna talk about it in person we've known each other for 13 years god damn it i left you an instagram comment i knew we would be face to face and that's how i want to have this conversation okay so okay i've still only seen the first pitch yeah from the angle that the orioles shared on instagram which is to say i did not see home plate yeah so what how did it go what happened you know what they told us is they don't usually shoot how it connects just to you know keep people guessing that's the standard though i think that was that was edited by by our beloved jomie i think oh okay you know with with taste and care um unlike danny heifetz who just posted the whole thing on his instagram is that true yes you can see the hype is cut heifetz was an angel throughout the whole night and then i was like damn man you really put me on blast here um you know the experience of was wonderful the pitch itself it was it will be better next time when i'm invited back to do it again i when would that be next year we're we're camping house of our night at oriole park at camden yards an annual tradition we'll see if anybody on the receiving end of that uh they nodded enthusiastically when we mentioned it maybe that was them like being like yeah there was passion in the room in real time yeah um i i spent you know we like to prep here at the podcast so i i would not say that i prepped the way i wanted to which would have been every day for six months i feel if i had done that i would have been really dialed in exactly where i needed to be because as you know it's not just about building up arm strength it's about mechanics consistency release point yeah it started to started to practice just like a couple like a week and a half couple weeks before and it was just enough to enough time to tell me i had left enough time for it yeah and when i would adam went to the park with me it was lovely it was actually really fun like should we keep playing reveal the park nearest to my home on a public podcast sorry you know i've got to realize you're such a star i know you're throwing out first pitches behind the scenes photos on instagram and then people can very easily identify it if they care right next to your comments we should we should create a ringer-esque gawker stalker but just for parks it's a good idea it's a good idea because we're all famously out and about yeah well those of us with children have to go all the time unfortunately please put your children on a gawker stalker sean and bill and i learned on the about last night rewatchables just mere days ago that there is a apparently a robust thriving booming ringer intramural sports experience that none of us have been invited to participate in they've got we've had a basketball team oh yeah i know about this have you been invited to play no why would anybody invite me i'm not fun why would anybody invite me to do anything i thought you were gonna say you're not yeah but i don't know what the fussy masculine and easy energy you want to bring to intramurals i think you'd be well i for years i did play on the intramural basketball team here and then i retired i remember the back pain the lower back it was very hard on my body that was a tough playing with 25 year olds and i was like oh my god i'm gonna play on the intramural basketball team my back also hurts uh but that's just also because i'm getting old so the quick answer to the how did the actual pitch go i was very worried as joe and all of the bad babies who joined us at this wonderful event at oriole park at camden yards because we did the pre-game live pod at the warehouse yes incredible experience we went down on the field we got to take pictures incredible experience did the pitch incredible experience you know steve beslow my dear friend yes i i could hear the bad babies cheering i knew adam had sort of vowed to take my parents into a place where they would be able to see both the field and the jumbotron but i will and joe was right there on the field but i wasn't expecting i turned around and my beloved steve one of my best friends in the world was just had made his way down behind home plate and was right there and i got all weepy and it was just very like wonderful and emotional and surreal and great got out there i'd been really nervous in the run-up because every time adam and i went to practice the first throw no matter how many times we did it not enough times but no matter how many times always a spike 10 feet in front of me to the left every time because i was trying for extra distance and would you know so i'm like all right don't spike the ball i told the room at the live pot and you get a couple warm-up throws in you're fine but the first throw always a mess i overcompensated released early and so because i was so anxious about holding late but i cleared that i got had the distance to reach the place and that was that to me was the most important thing didn't spike it didn't come up short but wide right yeah wide right okay yeah so if it were right-handed hitter it would have been behind him and they would have thought that i like tried to hit him in the spine but but missed okay um yeah she did connect on all of her warm like i did i requested to warm up on the sideline before i saw that yeah i don't want to say this then but i had a sinking feeling because you know the like the rule of show business is like if your dress rehearsal is great sure the like oh no yeah and i was like oh no she's hitting all of these enough to it you gotta try to get the arm a little limber it was a very humid day there were storms there was a tornado warning nervous for her beforehand no i was just excited she was incredibly supportive mallory had laid enough track that she was so beautiful so beautiful very deep and meaningful she was like i'm just gonna spike it like she was really prepared to spike it into the dirt spike felt to me so she wasn't like nervous about whether or not she was gonna make it she had like come up with a whole routine of what she was gonna do yeah shook off the catcher twice yeah then you know did her little challenge i saw you immediately called for abs yeah she plotted that i saw did your hop over the foul line a cr approved bit which is how i knew it was worth trying i knew she had a whole routine plan and i was just i just got emotional she was like walked out there like yeah and then i walked into your arms and they like said her name over the announcer and you could see her on the jumbotron it was just my high school it was really fun oh wow it was great it was really sweet it was an honor and jimmy and i were just sitting there and i just started crying it was really really sweet it was really wonderful it was a very cool day for my family they were super hyped my dad was just like over the moon also joe got to meet my family she got to meet some of my best friends it was amazing and then because people who had bought this was a really cool event people who had bought tickets to the jumbotron and they were like to the live show we all had like a dedicated section in center field so we spent the whole game meeting the the meeting the listeners meeting the viewers and hanging out with them um you know i didn't see a pitch of the game the orioles got their asses kicked uh lamentably by the yankees however they bounced back and then took the next couple from the race so why did they yeah they did why didn't you see a pitch of the game because we were just hanging with the bad babies the whole time we were just we were in a throng of the bad baby community out in the wild it's a wonderful thing to get to experience and then people are making line friends they're to watch them meet each other you know i mean it's just a delight it's great it was a wonderful experience uh and we're looking forward to house of our night at camden yards in 2027 and you were interviewed by kevin brown yeah so And he hopped on the podcast, too. No kidding. He hopped on at the very end. It sounded like he maybe he fangirled out a little bit. Well, Kevin is a big fan of The Ringer. He's a fan of House of R. He's a Sean Fennessey and Big Pig super fan. Nice. And so while I would consider Kevin. He's great. He's super talented. He's amazing. While I would consider Kevin an actual genuine friend, like one of my dear friends, someone I adore. You know, I know that our friendship is just a it's just a plot to get to you eventually. And I'm OK with it. I'm available. His dream in life is to participate in a big picture movie draft. Wow. His dream in life. Baltimore movies. Are there enough? You know, I've been plotting a baseball movie draft. Let's do it. I'm inviting myself as well. Well, you were you were on the list. You were on the invitation list. Well, I'm number one. Me, too. Like number one. Spoilers. Well, now that you're all in. I do love baseball movies. Are you adopting the Orioles? Have you considered that? She has a custom jersey now. I do. Oh, I think I saw that. Here's my hope is that if we make this an annual tradition, we get to start collecting. Because they put 26 on the back for the year. Then we get 27, 28. Actually, they just back collect one every year. Wow. We need to be invited on a City Connect night so that we can get the custom City Connect. So, oh, City Connect this year. It's just fucking amazing. I'm not familiar with them, but I reject City Connect on the premise. I don't. I'm just not a fan. Well, I mean, I've seen the Met City Connect, so I bet. They're pretty rough. Yeah. Let me ask you this. Why didn't you respond to my text where I sent you Pete Alonso's Player Weekend bat, which had a Maryland crab, blue crab. And it was all about the Eastern Shore and being just being in love with Maryland and Baltimore and this new community. Yeah. Yeah. And you did not reply. Well, my enthusiasm for your experience only extends so far. I'm happy you had this wonderful day that you got to experience it with Joanna. Same. And your family got to be there. Yeah. Pete Alonso was a member of my family for many years. That's right. There were a couple people in Mets gear. And I was like, why are you wearing Mets gear? And then I heard about the whole Pete thing. They said Pete. Yeah. I mean, it's not Pete's fault. No. You know. He's wonderful. He should have been retained. No, I just heard that it might be a note of sensitivity among Mets fans. I do feel bad for Mets fans. I feel happy to have Pete in my life. He's wonderful. And he has 30 home runs. It's great. I mean, the main point is that. That's what he does every year. The main point is that I understood your Instagram comment when you left it. There you go. Yeah. I know. Now you're in the loop on baseball lore. He did not embrace me to answer your Instagram question, but he's embraced the city of Baltimore and the state of Maryland. And then his wife threw out the pitch a couple days later. No kidding. He caught that pitch. She seems like a nice gal, too. What's her name? Wonderful family. Kelsey? I think that's something like that. Remember your family, but you don't know the wife? All right. Oh, man. Great stuff. Speaking of great men and their wives that are also here, let's talk about Oppenheimer. Spoiler for history, I suppose. Indeed. This is the last of our Nolan movies. So all Nolan movies are on the table, including The Odyssey, which we have all seen. I would say if we want to make reference to The Odyssey and you haven't seen The Odyssey yet, you should know the story of The Odyssey, but we might talk about it. This film was directed and written by Christopher Nolan, came out July 21st, 2023. Budget $100 million worldwide. Box office, $976.7 million, nearly a billion dollars, an incredible, outrageous achievement, a pile of Oscars, just the film of that year, undoubtedly. She said with some resignation. No, you know what? And I told you this already. Every time I rewatch this movie, I like it more. It's nice to hear. You say it like I'm doing it for you. That's what you said last time. I'm on this movie's corner. I'm a fan. I'm a big fan. When will you show the same grace to Inception, you know? I've certainly given it a lot of looks. I've tried to evolve my thoughts. Because we were supposed to do this a while ago, I did all my prep then, and then I rewatched it a couple times the last two days also to remind myself because my memory is bad. And again, every single time I rewatch it, I admire it more. I think there is a lot. There's obviously so much going on here, but it's an interesting movie. It's an undeniable achievement, and it is so rich with ideas and intellectually dense that every time I watch it, I discover something else, and every time I read an in-depth essay about it, I enjoy that experience. But I think I do still admire it more than I love it because I don't feel sort of emotionally moved by it. I feel intellectually stimulated by it, and there's nothing wrong with that, but that's just sort of where I land with it. Yeah. Sean Fennessey, tell me about your love of Oppenheimer. I think that's a completely reasonable opinion, and I wouldn't want to take it away from anybody. I don't. Well, you can't. I'm not. Well, I mean, don't dare me. I think. Don't listen to a prophet. It's interesting that you frame it that way because I don't know that I really have thought about the film in that dynamic, though that's a very common dynamic that people have with movies, which is sort of like, did this movie work for me personally on an emotional level? And also, is it successful? And what is it attempting to try to do? I don't find Chris Nolan to be a terribly emotional filmmaker. I would say The Odyssey is a pretty big breakthrough in that respect for me with his movies. I find him to be extremely structurally interesting. I think he's capable of great depth and imagination, but I find a lot of the emotional mechanics of his movies to be like a little tight and British. And so this movie to me is a kind of a fascinating breakthrough in that I feel like he's really trying to reckon with something that has recurred in all of his movies, and he kind of breaks through on that thing, which is this idea of sort of like, you know, we spend so much time figuring out if we could, we didn't think to ask if we should. And that's a hard line through all the movies. You know, it's, you know. My number one, The Prestige, that's what it's about. The Prestige is about that, and Following is about that. You know, this guy who sort of stumbles into a world of intrigue and doesn't really think about the consequences of that. Memento is about the. The inability to see what the consequences of your actions are because of something that is sort of blocking your ability to see it. Insomnia is, should we get room darkening shades? Exactly. All of these. But specifically, like, I can't sleep. You know, I'm not able to sleep, and it is causing my mind to worry. Like digging, you know, you quoted Jurassic Park, love to see it. Digging too greedily and too deep. That's like what a lot of his stuff is about. Mallory, what was your journey through these rewatches of Oppenheimer, and anything you want to weigh in on? On that sort of, like, emotional versus. We've talked about this, but, like, the chilliness of Nolan, for some people. Where do you land on that after this Oppenheimer revisitation? Yeah, I mean, you know, I love the filmography. I love Nolan's movies, as we've talked about now, over the course of a year plus, which has been such a joy, you know, to go through slowly and non-sequentially out of order. All of his movies. And it's fun because it started very authentically with, like, the Batman Begins and Inception anniversaries last year. And there's the idea of, like, you know, then we'll do the Prestige. Because we want to. And should we keep going? And it has felt weirdly meta and apt, albeit genuinely unintentional, to take them in this order and in this way. And I think, you know, Joe, this was maybe how we justified it to ourselves in real time. But it actually does feel kind of nice to look back at Oppenheimer after The Odyssey, given what a massive achievement and culmination, you know, of so many of those core areas of emphasis, the focus and through lines across the entire filmography that Odyssey felt like. And to then study Oppenheimer. You could have done this in an anticipatory fashion. But given the ending of The Odyssey in particular and how much of it is about legacy and guilt and shame and interrogating the great man idea that is so central to so much of Nolan's, you know, preoccupation in his work, this actually feels like a nice way to do it and to look back. And also because it was the big awards, you know, breakthrough and darling and The Odyssey until Dune 3 comes in. And just that's the only thing we're all talking about, you know. It feels like it has a chance to. Really dominate the discussion as well. You're not an Elsinore truther? There's still time. Okay. Give it time. Who knows? I think I'll be seeing it pretty soon. I'll let you know. When we did our. So I didn't. I've said this before, but I didn't participate in real time at the theater in Barbenheimer and the Barbenheimer extravaganza. Halo had a surgery that weekend. We were watching him for like multiple weeks after that. By that time, I was like, I'll just watch this movie at home. So I actually never saw Oppenheimer in movie theaters, which is like not ideal. Not ideal, obviously. I think I saw it like four times. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, now certainly I think in the last year, I've shifted a little bit out of my. We have a big TV and nice speakers and room darkening shades. Like I can watch movies comfortably at home. And boy, it's really great to be back at the movie theater with my friends. You know, I think after the like 2020, 2021, 2022 anxiety has like abated a little bit. So I have not seen this movie in that setting. When I watched it for the first time, it was months into. Not only. Not only the Barbenheimer like cultural zeitgeist animating moment of this real unique shared experience, but people talking about Oppenheimer like it was this incredible achievement. And I don't think that was the ideal way to go into seeing it. I quite. I admired it and respected it. And I think when I saw it the first time, I really appreciated and liked the first two hours, but was like pretty baffled by the third act relying and resting so heavily on the straws trial. Nothing about that opinion. Has changed no matter how many times I've revisited it. I still find the balance of the film and how much of the focus I understand the logic and rationale behind the choice. And I think that in terms of the portrait of inadequacy and the strivers compared to the people who actually achieve and like which of those things is frankly more dangerous in terms of the impact it has on the world. I understand all of the reasons to structure the film that way. way and balance the story that way. It's just not as interesting when you shift into that stretch. at the end because the first two hours are so riveting and gobsmacking re-watching it multiple times this last year i have found myself so swept up in the first two hours of it like i think the first two hours of this movie are among the great achievements in the nolan filmography i when we did our when joe and i did our rankings um a few weeks ago i had it at six and like the thing about the nolan ranking you're going through 13 movies they're all good like they're all good to some extent and through for me 10 i think through 10 i was like i actually really like all of these movies you know there's a degree of generally agree with that i mean you know dark knight rises has some some flaws yeah but it also has bane and he fucking rules i love i love bane he fucking rules it's funny like the the this criticism that you just shared which i think you share um and i know amanda shares because she brings it up every time we talk about on the third act is one of those things where i'm like for the big spectacle movies we tend to hand it over to the other people and we're like oh my god i'm gonna have to do this again and i'm like oh my god i'm gonna have to do this again and i'm like oh my god i'm gonna have to do this and we've like a lot of the flaws where we're like oh yeah but this movie has bane it's a fun batman movie but for whatever reason like the hang-up i think with oppenheimer among some of its if not detractors people who have notes for it it's a very similar kind of note that i think you could have for almost all of his movies which is perceptionally there is some kind of like structural flaw where he's like reached too far like he has done this incredible thing yeah and well yeah you know there's something to that i think you know that he's really interested in these really ambitious people that really reach for something beyond themselves and much like batman um and so this is the rare case i think where maybe that hang-up doesn't bother me because i'm very very interested in the core idea that creates the friction between the three acts and the two story structures between the straw structure and between the oppenheimer structure and that idea is very simple which is you mentioned the idea of this driver and this idea of ambition and there's two strains of ambition one is for power and one is for ideas and sometimes ideas start reaching towards power and whenever power starts reaching towards ideas we get a mess of a world and he seemed to be genuinely interested in the mess of the world like kind of what happened that seemed to animate his interest in telling the story i just love that idea i think that's pretty sophisticated and it maybe doesn't make the movie as fun in the in the final hour but it's a it's i thought it was pretty deep no absolutely i think it's incredibly deep you know his you know most repeated inspiration that i saw uh was amadeus obviously one of my prestige also has a lot of amadeus dna in it but there but it is like a more evenly balanced and amadeus it is in many ways a salieri movie actually and this in sort of chasing that amadeus energy i think the straw stuff is so much weaker in a way that makes it feel unbalanced i also this is just like not my favorite downy performance and also unfortunately for my guy alden aaron reich he is just saddled with a lot of just saying the thing one of your biggest critiques of inception which is just sort of like uh you know when we try to compliment tenant we like to say uh you know he said just like you know just feel it don't try to understand it right and so when he is making his sort of like uh and you this is one of the first things you said when you came out of the odyssey where you're talking about the rapid edits and cuts in odyssey which is of course here as well this sort of like montage approach impressionistic eisenstein-esque like approach to storytelling and it works so well and then you just sort of sort of like grinds to a halt for me a bit when alden aaron reich has to say like well so it was you well you know like no doubt in the drawing room trying to tell you who did the crime and that's that's like that's like the ideas that you outline i think are incredible but the execution and yeah i can i can forgive a flaw in a diamond for sure i think you're absolutely right and i i can't really quibble with it i think the other major influence which you guys have cited here too is jfk and that's really more the jfk stream where jfk is like jfk is this kind of wild frenzy of ideas but whenever the film flashes to black and white it's attempting to create this kind of heightened docudrama experience and that's it's a it's a borrowed style and so he's attempting to fuse this wild editing impressionistic style that you described which i love and i think this to me is the pinnacle of that the first 40 minutes of this movie is so breathtaking yeah i and i i could tell within the first five minutes that i was going to fall in love with it and and seeing it you know it's so obnoxious but seeing it on imax on the big screen and hearing uh goranson score immediately and the raindrops falling and i'm thinking about that and that moment when he's sort of thinking about um the mechanics of bomb building and throwing the glass and looking at the cubist paintings and his mind kind of turning around art and science together i felt like that was a huge step forward or he had like kind of like i said kind of cracked something but he also wanted to have this idea about america and so he's thinking about presidential assassinations and so in this attempt to kind of create a stew like he has a better handle on some styles than others and i think this idea of like creating a story about america is so successful when you get things like the gary oldman scene or what matt damon is doing this whole movie like to all of that yeah all of that stuff really really works for me i do like the alden aaron x characters uh just called senate aid which so for him to get the following the blonde treatment that's pretty great says a lot yeah what do you think it is uh we've been sort of talking around this for a little bit but like i've been really bumping on his sort of like what i'm calling his ingenue problem as we have discussed sort of the weaker elements of even the films we love like say the ariadne character in inception uh etc etc there is this sort of like type of character i would say i think tom holland is one of the weaker parts of the odyssey uh it is it does not have to be gender but alden aaron reich i think again i love alden for him is really tough in this movie and so do you have any thoughts about what it is about this archetype that is that is not very successful in nolan films well i mean i think you could make the case that penelope carries some of that load in the odyssey as well where where there are long stretches of the movie where they use these characters to allow other characters to explain to them what's really going on in the story and so they they're meant to seem one they're not what nolan is really best at which is sort of men and or women but mostly men of action you know people who drive the action of the story that's something that he really leans into he's like a real student of david lean in that respect where his kind of his protagonists are these sort of like um swashbuckling uh adventurous types and the counterpoint to that always has to be somebody but like who's like oh tell me more how does this work sir and that's a little bit different from the dead wife problem but there's a sort of a correlation there where they're sort of like but it's like let me create these kind of motivating factors and let's also build characters who can help our hero explain what's really happening here again one of the reasons why i like tenant which sort of like is dispensing with that and calling the primary character the protagonist instead of a side character senate aide or you know a single named woman who doesn't really have any depth yeah i think you know one of the things i i so love about nolan's movies this has been one of the really fun things to talk about in a track because the films are very distinct from each other and he plays across different genres but there are these uh this is an aspect of a threat across the tapestry and his movies his style it's like so utterly specific right and there are details and aspects not only of his craft and the way he makes films but of each story that you're like this is only inception it can only be inception right i'm an interstellar definitively but then they're also in tandem with that functioning as fables right he is interested to your point from earlier and like uh through a specific lens of his style a broad assessment of human nature and human capacity and so i think the tendency to put characters like that in the movie is like there's a function to it you know the kind of like gentle useful innocence of meeting and wanting to understand is that always effectively rendered in the films like no but i understand what leads him to put characters like that in the movie i get a laugh and it is interesting to you know we talked about this a little bit on the odyssey pod tell me about my dad yeah it was we talked about this a bit on on the on the odyssey pod but like if you just compare a couple of the most recent odyssey adaptations you know with christopher nolan's odyssey and then the return like the telemachus characters among the most differently and distinctly rendered right there's like a violence and a rage to the telemachus in the return that is just like not present in nolan's version of it so yeah i i wonder if that's like a mileage may vary viewer to viewer person but i think that's a good point i think that's a good point i think the fact that it's very consistent in the movies feels purposeful i want to go back to sort of how we got here uh in the first place with oppenheimer which is you know the story has been told a million times with the fact that robert pattinson gave christopher nolan a book of oppenheimer speeches uh after they made tenant together of course uh oppenheimer is mentioned in tenant um the fact that it started with the speeches so uh one of our listeners um sam who sends like the really really really really incredible long uh email about the speech scene in oppenheimer which has like you know incredible uh analysis of it but i it helped me really appreciate in my last rewatch the way in which you know the thumping of the feet on the floor is executed auditorially at these key moments leading up to so the way in which that sort of impressionistic montage storytelling leads you to this is this is the beating heart core of the story it could be the test if you decide but i think most people believe it is this speech scene that he gives after the bombs have been dropped. And I was thinking about it as sort of like, this is the snow fortress. This is what's inside the safe of the snow fortress of Oppenheimer's mine. And it keeps sort of like calling to him throughout as he's sort of explaining things. And then we finally get there and it is so horrific and incredibly technically executed. But I love the idea that like the germ for this movie was because that speech as it exists in the film is lifted directly from, you know, the language is what Oppenheimer said. So for Nolan to have read that speech and then sort of been caught on this idea of like, what could he have been thinking when he said this? And of course, like American Prometheus is, you know, the blueprint for this movie. But just like that, that scene coming from that book given to him by Robert Pattinson and sort of like building, sort of how we were talking about with Lantern early this week, like starting with one image and sort of like building out this entire labyrinth from there to get to this thing at the center of the maze. So just to be clear, the one image that the film built from was not the poisoned green apple. Big Apple War movie for us because the red apple consumed in full in real time, the green apple with the cyanide injected sits there untouched for long enough that Oppie can pull it away, not commit a murder. Notable. I really didn't think you could surprise me anymore. And the fact that you said that instead of Cillian Murphy sitting naked in the chair, and you've restrained yourself from mentioning it thus far into the podcast is really impressive. You know, I just feel fairly sure we'll be making that a meme, you know, photoshopping Sean's head onto that image and putting it on our Instagram. Do we have your permission? If only I could be that svelte, that lean. Do we have your permission to do that? Whatever you want. At this point, I'm out of control of the memes. Did Bill love to put your face on movie posters for rewatchables? He did. He was sort of a meme innovator. I mean, he literally had a poster of you in his office. The silent judge. The silent judge. In the old pre-COVID days. An Imagine TNT series in which I was some sort of lawyer, I guess, who was solving cases silently. Sitting there in meetings, silently judging. This is a reference to the fact that frequently things were uttered in ringer meetings. And I was like, I'm not sure if that's such a good idea, but I never said that out loud. But you could tell. But you could tell. It was very disapproving. What do you think, in terms of like there was an idea, what do you think is at the core of, this movie? Regret within accomplishment. You know, it seems to be the big concept. And the scene that you were just describing is really about that. It's about trying to find a way to communicate that without having Oppenheimer say, what have I done? Without having to, you know, straws. I have such doubt. And Ehrenreich, you know, they get to sort of over-communicate some of the consequences and circumstances. But Oppenheimer, even in a sort of quasi-courtroom function in the film opposite Jason Clarke, like, isn't actually able to honestly communicate through most of that discussion because he's protecting himself and he's trying to navigate his own safety long-term. And so there's something really interesting about the kind of, the restrained pain that he feels in the almost immediate aftermath. I mean, this is kind of skipping ahead to one of the categories, but my favorite shot in the movie is not of the Trinity test. It's not of, you know, the raindrops falling. It's specifically Oppenheimer being hoisted on men's shoulders after the success of the Trinity test with the American people. The American flag waving behind him because there's just like a scintilla of regret on Murphy's face. And, you know, it's such a special performance in this movie. But that's, the movie kind of turns on that specific moment where it feels like they've accomplished something and then this is where everything is about to go downhill. Yeah. And it's just, it's a brilliant piece of filmmaking and it's nice that, you know, Nolan can't help but kind of announce his themes and intentions throughout his movies, which I usually bump on. This is a case where, like, that's not an understated sequence that you just described, but it's not overstated either. It just is appropriate given the magnitude of the story. And it does make the moments, I mean, especially with Oppenheimer's character himself, in part because, you know, as the movie says out loud many times, you know, the most important man who ever lived, like, this is such a consequential thing and you understand that as a viewer, but also just the Killian Murphy performance is exquisite. Like, it's gorgeous. The expression on his face, that shot that you're identifying the hoisted on the shoulders, you know, the fact that we, especially with this American movie, but sports fans the world over, you associate that with, like, celebrating the win and that is the headspace that some people in that moment are occupying. But, like, it almost feels like over the IMAX lens, there's an x-ray machine and you can see the twisting of the gut just because of what he's conveying on his face. So then when you have a moment, like, I really like the Jason Clarke performance in this movie. I do too. I love him. And when Roger Robb is, like, berating him, you know, 220,000 dead at least, yes, any moral scruples about that, he does say terrible ones, but it's two words. It's not a grand speech in that moment. There is a gentle, quiet delivery and we have seen the moments that you're both identifying that make the truth of that even inside of the machinations of what will you do or not do to kind of preserve or protect your reputation. You shook his hand, you know, the way Kitty is talking about the teller handshake, et cetera, and then the payoff, obviously, at the salmon dinner of not shaking it. We understand that. We don't need him to say it. Mm-hmm. But then the moment when he does say it doesn't feel like did you need to say it like some other moments can because we understand it in full and the fact that he is acknowledging it is the point. Something that really unlocked for me in my latest rewatch, which was this morning, was. This is a three-hour movie. Time to wake up this morning. We started this about at 9.30. We did not sleep last night. We did. We had a late friend of the fest 10 o'clock screening. No kidding. Yeah. So we both. How'd it go? I would say got to bed at 2 o'clock but didn't go to sleep and. Was it Labyrinth? It was Labyrinth. It was Labyrinth. I've never seen the movie. It was great. My first time ever seeing that film. Oh, I love Labyrinth. Yeah. So good. Wonderful stuff. Yeah. It was really fun to show. I love Ludo. Big Ludo fan instantly. Was Bowie playing in here earlier? Synced to the. No. Labyrinth film? No. But it's nice that you thought that was the case. You just feel like Bowie is. Maybe you just had that energy. Oh, yeah. Was he the Goblin King? Don't people usually say I have Bowie energy? You do have Bowie energy. Absolutely. I wish. You 100% do. Tesla? Something that. A layer that really. Bring it back. Nice job. That's true. Nice. A layer that really struck me this morning was like among the sort of like genuine what have I wrought sort of regret which, you know, we can chase through all of Nolan's movies. There's also this other fascinating layer inside of this story which is, you know, in terms of the like calling it the Trinity Test or I've become death destroyer of worlds the clear God complex that exists for Oppenheimer and then the moment that the creation and the decision around the creation is taken out of his hands Yes. and the bomb is shipped off to Washington and he's like should I come and Damon's like whatever for essentially. But, you know, and he, you know, he's repeating to other other scientists it's not up to us what should be done but you can tell that there's like I feel like the film is trying to say and this is not a great revelation necessarily but like I feel like the film is, like, yeah, does he have profound regrets? Yeah, that exists for him but also like maybe how much of this is his ego and the fact that he got to like sort of like play God justify the increasingly dangerous steps he was taking towards his end goal and then he was not at the end of the day the ultimate decider on what was done with his creation and so there is this and then and so then he becomes then there is this hypocrisy inside of his advocacy against the thing he created because because he's no longer the one who gets to decide what we do with it. Yeah, and I think it's quite subtle because some of it is that general feeling of loss of control where anytime you've worked hard on something and it's no longer in your hands I think that's very relatable. Oh, of course. And then there's also something that is of much greater consequence which is moving from the theoretical to the actual makes things real. Yes. You know, and men of science, women of science are the ones who often live in the theoretical, you know, like I'm married to a mathematician, my father-in-law is a math professor, like these are, I know a lot of people whose minds are occupied by concepts but not necessarily like practical executions and so I mean, I love, I'm interested in people like that, I love people like that but they don't often think specifically about the pragmatic next step and this is a move And then Michael Angarano's like here's a slideshow that shows you exactly the consequences of your accuracy. Exactly. Well, and like, you know, I think we've all been talking, many of our colleagues and fellow podcasters have been talking about like, well, what's next for Nolan? You know, he's done Oppenheimer, he's done The Odyssey, like what movies, who's going to interest him and draw his attention next? And like that specific thing and the way the movie constantly returns our attention to that idea of like theory can only take you so far and literalizes it, the relationship between like Oppie and Lawrence from the word go, right? Nolan is somebody who is interested in big ideas and we hear across the movie studies, I have been thinking about this for 20 years. Oh, this was the first story I ever wrote. Oh, I just had to wait until I could return. But you also, so you understand why the theory would interest him, but you also understand why that part of like what happens when you go beyond theory for a tactile technician like he is, like somebody who is so not only focused on his craft and expert at it, but like serious about pushing it forward, right? And about, about thinking about what's, what, what, what, like how do you build a team? You know? What happens when Warner Brothers, Who's your editor? Who's your cinematographer? What happens when Warner Brothers gets to decide who's your distributor? Who's your distributor? That's how your movie is displayed, you know, at home. You understand why he's interested in all of that. Talk about I finished my work of art and now it's out of my hands. Exactly, yeah. This is fascinating. On this sort of, to tie a bow in this idea of the architect of your own misfortune, the what have I wrought concept, you and I were talking about this a little bit off pod where this theory coming out of Oppenheimer that people really cherished was this idea that like the central metaphor, the big regret of Christopher Nolan's life that he is reflecting back in Oppenheimer's story is I made Batman Begins and I brought, you know, the age of the superhero cinema and that ruined Hollywood and that's my big regret. And you and I were both talking about, like we were talking about this, I think right before Spider-Man and we were like, A, it's a little interesting and it's kind of funny, but we both don't think that is like has to be the, that can't be the only answer, especially when he reiterates it again in the, I'm like, he's not so torn up about having made Batman that he had to make two massive movies about it. So do you have any theories? It's also just not true. Like they were making Superman movies, superhero movies before the Dark Knight. Yeah, and Ulti. They were, but I don't think you can, I don't ascribe to this theory. I do not think it is why he has been telling this story. I do think there is a difference of pre-Nolan Batman, post-Nolan Batman. Yeah, of course. Definitely changed. I think there was. It was a cultural shift. I think it's amusing conversation fodder. Yeah, yeah. If the idea crossed his mind, I wouldn't be shocked. Yeah. It being the primary motivating factor for making a movie about J. Robert Oppenheimer. That's like, it's a bit of a stretch. I don't know. I think it's, I think that intellectual dynamic that we're describing here is the thing that is most interesting to him, which is sort of like, well, to quote another superhero, with great power comes great responsibility. You know, like there is something in that conceit that keeps drawing him back. And like that's in the prestige, that's in Inception, right, that's in Cobb, that's in Interstellar with the idea of sort of like taking a great leap towards something and then we're having that deep regret about having missed your children's lives, you know. So, you know, what the, I don't know if there's a single answer for why people do things and I sometimes get caught in the rabbit holes of psychologizing why filmmakers make certain decisions because I'm so interested in the choices that they make. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know Christopher Nolan. I've never met him. I don't talk, I've never talked to him before. Seems to come from an interesting family. I don't know what could possibly be motivating the desire to discover this, but I do think that there's something really interesting in the kind of dyad of Dunkirk in this movie, which is, you know, he's a British-American man. And he's told one World War II story through the prism of a sort of British dignity, which has these kind of flashes of vulnerability. You know, speaking of Cillian Murphy, his character in that film or some of the like emotional outbursts when they're trapped in the ship. But for the most part… That's sort of a stiff upper lip tribute. And I find Oppenheimer to be this like emotional break, like American breakdown. You know, it's sort of like once America comes into that war and the literal megaton power that they bring to world conflict and that they bring to the way that they've kind of shaped the world stage over the last 80, 85 years. I say they as if I'm not a member of this country. And I'm sure that maybe some personal push and pull that he feels between those two ideas and that he is very much an American and very much a Brit and that this world changing conflict is something that fascinated most people who were born in the 20th century. How could you not be interested in World War II? So, you know, that's one thing that I think about with him and the fact that he came back to a World War II story so quickly after making Dunkirk is of note to me. Yeah, I think it's interesting, too, to think of Dunkirk and Oppenheimer as on opposite sides. Of the coin in terms of the individual and the collective and which one is more central in the focus. Like, certainly aspects of Oppenheimer are about the collective, both in terms of like nationhood, but also in terms of like the scientific community or the political community, any number of things of that nature. You know, the family unit, right? The idea of giving all of the wives the jobs and bringing the families to Los Alamos, etc. But it is so much about J. Robert. It's called Oppenheimer. Oppenheimer. Yeah. Yeah. And it is about this person and his impact on history and his. What's more American than that? The rugged individualist nation. Even, you know, Groves, Damon's character showing up and being like, the reason I'm here to talk to you is because everybody just had bad things to say about you. And I needed to understand that. It's so much about the you. They have Dunkirk is such a, you know, we think, I think, lovely. Yeah, exactly. And again, there are aspects of that and Oppenheimer is like all of the physicists. Pulling together to try to solve this problem. Can the American physicists who have made their way here beat the Germans, beat Heisenberg and his crew? But, you know, then you have moments like not the famous Einstein Oppenheimer scene that ends the film, but the one shortly before that by the car. You know, and Einstein saying to him, like, you don't think I understand this? Like, I left my country. Never returned. You serve your country well. If this is the reward she offers you, then perhaps you should turn. You're back on her. That is like quite different from the Dunkirk perspective. It is. Anything you want to say, Molly Rubin, about the sexual content of this film? Oh, yeah, I'd be delighted. Okay, great. I just think Horny Nolan is really welcome and I'm glad we got it. You know, I mean, it's this and Carrie Ann Moss spitting in the beer in terms of like. I know you find that very, very horny. Freakiness. The cut from the. Gene Oppenheimer wiggle room flirtation into them fucking tits out. If you've been watching Nolan fans for two decades is a real show. It's like. Wow. And then the fact that we get the now I am become death destroyer of worlds quote for the first time. While they're fucking is just really something memorable. Great stuff. I think that when Robert meets Kitty, you're married to Dr. Harrison. Not very. It's pretty horny inside of an old movie. That's great. That's great. The dual nude armchair. Them sitting, you know, naked, cross-legged. Gene and Oppenheimer in the in the armchairs. Important to you emotionally. It became iconic for a reason. I think it was funny because, you know, we talked about this a lot when we talked about the Odyssey. The fact that despite the source material involving, you know, Odysseus like fucking his way home. It's a very like sexless. Version of the Odyssey. And so that was fun to think about in terms of coming back to Oppenheimer because I was like, oh, maybe an Oppenheimer. He turned a corner. Yeah. And he was like, I would like to put more sexual content in my stories for some reason, even though I have not been really doing it before. But that's not the case. And so then then you're sort of like, OK, so then why this story? And I think it goes back to what you were outlining, this idea of like American power and this idea of, you know, American. Greed or warmongering and how that is tied up in sort of like rapacious appetite. And so the fact that like sexual content is part of that and the way in which like the death of Gene and the dropping of the bomb are like the blood on his hands and, you know, and connected in the edit. Yeah. Very distinctly. And so the way in which like sex and violence are connected makes sense to me why this is the one story that is thus far in his. Career that he has decided to put like explicit ish sexual content. I think appetite, the word you just used is is perfect. Like there is a hunger. I think there's also just something humanizing about it. Genuinely, like, is it titillating and salacious when we're in the interrogation room scene and suddenly Florence Pugh is there? You fucking Gene and Oppenheimer are fucking and Kitty is watching. It's like I have not seen something quite like this in a Nolan movie. Yeah, of course. But the idea that a character, this this actual person in history who is doing this. This unbelievably consequential thing. And you have other moments in the movie that achieve this. Like, as they say, you couldn't run a hamburger stand like I couldn't. Right. But the idea that there's something like messy about his sex life and his yearning and his need. And also just there's something human about. Impulse, lack of impulse control, being led by your desire, but also, of course, then the self-obsession, not only the melding of the of the violence in the edit, which is very striking and I think notable on the. You know, the great man front, but like the fact that and there's the you know, we feel empathy, I think, on the like you carry guilt based on how you've treated other people front when we watch Robert sobbing beneath the tree in New Mexico and Kitty finds him, but also the fact that he's like, I did this my fault, my fault. What happened to Gene is my fault. Me, me, because everything I do has an impact, the ripple on everybody else in the world, individual people in my life and also the world at large, like the movie ending on a shot of. Atmospheric ignition, this threat that looms over the entire film, every individual relationship that he has, there's a version of that atmospheric ignition from his perspective to you. And so the sex is kind of a way of unlocking that. Yeah, there's something I have a lot to say about you guys are saying so smart. Love the show. You're welcome. Anytime. So we'd love to have you. I think there's an interesting intellectual conflict with how people receive this movie because, you know, you've already said the phrase a great man a couple of times and it is obviously a man about. A man who did something quote unquote great and it is a very narcissistic. portrait of a person oh yeah and everything that he does has this very upsetting ripple effect whether it be on a single woman or on a community of people or on friends of his who are part of a socialist communist community or his colleagues in science or his family and his wife and his children or the american president and the american idea like he has this kind of corrupting quality yeah so like on the one hand you would say well that's not a very noble portrait of a person like this is a person who created kind of great shame and great violence in the world yeah and but then there's also something so empathetic about killian murphy as a performer and so clearly like an admiration that nolan brings to the achievements of this great mind and not just the mind who is able to sort of formulaically solve something but build a team and execute something collectively yeah so one of the reasons why like i think i reject the general like well this is a great man movie like as though it were a movie about like a john ford movie um that has an uncritical look at someone who raped and pillaged across the american frontier is because it's all you know it feels like on any given day while they were making the film nolan had a different perspective on who what oppenheimer represented and who he was yeah and to me that friction is really exciting and really interesting to think about and it speaks to i just think most people that i know which is like even the closest people in the world to you make terrible mistakes or do things that they deeply regret and wish they hadn't done and so i'm not sure if i'd necessarily like to me this isn't gandhi right gandhi is a portrait of a movie of like a man who did effectively no wrong i i both agree with you but then i kind of then my thinking comes back around to the other side because on the one hand yes there's so many moments in the movie like that moment you're talking about when kitty finds him crying over dean yeah and she says you don't get to commit the sin and get us to feel sorry for you because it has consequences like that could be the thesis of of the movie right so it's just sort of like uh he's he's a great people throughout the movie tell him he's one of the most important man right yeah um but also we watch him feel uh you know his soul get rotted out from underneath him because of what he did so you're so nolan is saying then there's the moment when oppenheimer says is anyone ever going to tell the truth about what happened here yeah um in terms of his uh encounter with jason clark that that whole thing and then you could just almost hear christopher nolan from off camera being like i will you know and then like and then we're supposed to be like cheering for strass when he gets his comeuppance like he's the villain of the piece so then there is this way in which just by the con the dint of the construct of the film it valorizes oppenheimer and like there's a ton of people who don't who didn't even really know who oppenheimer was so just by existing as a piece of art it elevates him that's my point it's both yeah it's it really is both it's like i think oppenheimer can both be seen as this complex figure who did things that um without enough consideration that he let his ambition lead him but that also he was railroaded by a bureaucratic state that effectively like fucked up the 20th century in america right so to me the dynamic of both of those things being true is part of what makes the movie very exciting for me yeah um and doesn't draw me back and doesn't make it feel like it's a movie that's like a fusty 1982 hollywood claptrap kind of awards prestige movie like it is to me it feels much deeper than that well you mentioned of course lawrence of arabia and um i saw i told you this that i saw this uh as part of american cinema tech 70 millimeter i mean they show it every hell yeah uh all the time every year uh whatever but i saw it uh again on the big screen this summer so thinking a lot about that portrait complicated portrait of a of a man and not such a nice man to you lawrence exactly yeah uh but i think it's a really good movie and i think it's uh you know peter o'toole so handsome so charming but then you're like dear god and he's also like dear god oh my um you know and then i also i saw jfk for the first time i had never seen it and so thinking about it uh as and it's that is such a one of the messiest films i've ever seen in my entire life and i was like kind of shocked by how messy it was because i think i had this sort of like more stayed idea of what i thought it was just sort of like i think kevin costner and i like i know what like the courtroom moments were a total fever dream understand how insane it was and so thinking about all those other ingredients in this do was was really fun and i'm so glad i had just freshly re-watched this when we watched the odyssey but i could sit there in the in the theater and be like the trojan horse is the atomic really fun i you know obviously the the term american prometheus that we've already mentioned a few times comes from the text comes from the the um the source text that uh nolan adapted here but the way that that is incorporated into the film you know it's the the opening uh language in the in the first few visuals we get uh neil's saying you're an american prometheus the man who gave them the power to destroy themselves and they'll respect that then your work really begins so you i think we understand why nolan is drawn to the account like american prometheus you can feel that pulling him in magnetically like whether he wanted to be pulled in or not because the idea of the prometheus like the tight right the godly titan who is the the way that and this is kind of you know joe has tracked over the um as a you know a jonathan nolan lover the differences of maybe onto your emotionality point and i think i'm i'm slightly more drawn to some of the emotional beats and like like inception for example like i find that movie to be deeply moving but like the other side of the or the related aspect of are these movies always like um pulling on your heartstrings is there's an intellectual rigor to them and like the way that he is saying that nolan is clearly interested in just uh what is the capacity for achievement you know what is the capacity for achievement and so there is there are those moments where it feels like there's admiration undeniably i agree joe but even still there's always a little bit of a tether to i'm like studying this scientifically almost like well how are people capable of these things and if you are one of the people who's capable of those things and what is your impact on the world and then how do you feel and because he thinks he's one of those yeah i mean think about it practically one of the interesting technical takeaways from the odyssey was that this is the first feature film ever shot completely with imax cameras and the only way to accomplish that was to build these sound blimps around the cameras yeah so that you it effectively would not be too loud and you'd be able to have dialogue sequences and you could hear dialogue of course an issue in many of nolan's films i will note also oppenheimer it's uh one of the great achievements of that movie is you can hear it everyone's saying to each other um yeah because it's more of you know it's a talky movie it's a much talkier movie than almost all of his films but the idea of him pushing the that format so aggressively and pushing the technology needed to execute that format in full to deliver to audiences his perception of the grandest stage is really interesting to me because you know one of the drawbacks of that technology is that final sequence which i love in the odyssey of uh odysseus you know stringing the bow firing the arrow and then taking on all comers is wonderful and very exciting and the second time i watched it i was like oh this is quite herky jerkily edited because it's very hard to shoot action of this scale with cameras like this and there's a lot of questions going forward about whether or not he's going to do this again because he may not be able to you could not shoot the action intended with those cameras at least not with in any consistent um long sequence you know it's his very modest version of like we spent all this time time trying to figure out if we should we never thought about whether or whether we could we never thought about whether we should and like he also likes to kind of bump up against the limitations of his own design so i do see even if i can't personally psychologize some of the things i do see a lot of the strategies that he brings to movie making into the characters that he is most fascinated by and that's a fun thing that he does like most filmmakers you can look at their work and they also have these recurrences but they're not so easy to make and they're not so easy to make and they're not so easy to make and they're map like you guys have been talking about him for over a year now you can see it's not just that he likes the same couple of story ideas it's that they're like resonant in all these different directions through every movie that is very fun to kind of pick apart which is one of the reasons why he's really the filmmaker of the century that he's like somebody that people love to talk about and they love to think about on that note and then and then i do want to get to our superlatives but i i was thinking a lot about you know you you made this great collaborative list of the best nolan everyone's nolan list is different yes and beautiful in their own way yeah it's very special no i was i'm not i'm not here to bury your list i think i think what is you did that in real time yeah you're like this is an outrage and you guys owe me a blood debt yeah i also look took my hands off the wheel big time in that one i was like this is this would not be my list at all but it's almost like like an enneagram it's because the stories are being kind of retold again and again and again to decide which version of that story which are again the same themes over and over again which one like you know plucks this the string of your particular bow and resonates with you i think is really interesting and like thinking about again some of the movies feel emotional to me and some of them don't but they're they're always rife with these ideas yes and so it's sort of like okay what is the what is the most central idea and why is that you know resonating with me there's this great brendan hodges um essay about um it was the one on oppenheimer where he says um about Nolan films uh they are the dream catchers of universal fears shared between him his characters and it seems us the wide audience and so what I love about that is like what is the what is the core fear you know Chris when he was on here talking about Dunkirk was talking you know his his most beloved Nolan film was talking about this this repeated theme of trying to get home right and how he's like all of Nolan films are about trying to get home or when when Rebecca came on to talk to us about Tenet and she was talking about the family unit and how Nolan's preoccupation with like reuniting the family in the family unit and so I was like why the prestige for me and I was like oh like those feelings of like competitive inadequacy and like you know competition and like will I ever be satisfied with my achievement I'm like oh yeah that's the thing that sort of like animates me and so that's what's so great about the repetition inside of Nolan is it's a repeated story again and again but slightly focused in on one corner or another it's refracted you know and you bring a lot of your personal experience I of course am a great man and so Oppenheimer is my pick I get it I've always thought that about you all right should we do our our uh our categories our superlatives production wow graphics sheesh um I feel like I'm on who wants to be a millionaire yeah you are you're welcome here at the Sycamore complex anytime soon we'll have sort of the lighting change like a dozen who wants to be a millionaire I would love that for us okay we're doing our Oppenheimer top 14 it was going to be top 15 but then uh we saw the odyssey so we're no longer doing that looking forward at the odyssey category uh so we're starting uh as we often do with why so serious funniest line or moment of this incredibly hilarious movie uh Sean fantasy would you like to go for it yeah I mean my favorite quote is the quote that you have for a later category but I'll just utter it now which is amateurs seek the sun get eaten power stays in the shadows which is of course not uttered by Oppenheimer um and is not true and is sort of the the inverse thesis of the movie in a lot of ways you know that power feels the need to rise you know and that one of the reasons why the third act of the movie works so well for me is because power and ambition and ego are intertwined in such a unique way and that there's no person like Oppenheimer who very quietly just like does his work and achieves something special and I think that's a really good quote I think that's a really good quote I think that's a really good quote I think that's a really good quote and gets no credit and we never hear about him again and the same is true for ambitious drivers like straws um and it's also just uh it's a very amusingly delivered line in the movie that doesn't sound like anything anyone would ever say yeah and that is a that is a constant in Nolan movies where people are frequently saying things where you're like what'd you say like why would you say it that way um so I'm a fan of this one I don't uh would you say Krumholtz's character Robbie who like quietly like takes over uh Oppenheimer's role um is he sort of someone who just sort of quietly and effectively does his job and is sort of always has a snack on the warm moral center of this nice orange loves fruit important love him um I you know David Krumholtz just announced that he uh stepping back from acting I know but then he like came out and was like just kidding I'm not yeah we'll say it's hard to know I he didn't say he was retiring right he said he was gonna step back and he was like I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know step back but uh I hope he I hope he doesn't because he's wonderful in this movie and in many other movies um yeah I think maybe you could say I think that that's that's more to me that that part of the story is a sign that one he was a part of a large scientific community and two that as soon as someone in a meaningful role steps away there will be someone there to fill you in right away like no hole is too big to be filled uh but I love that it's him and not someone who you know not like teller or someone else who we sort of like resent uh Mallory um I have uh a few lines that make me laugh early in the movie that kind of fall into a bucket of like delivered in casual conversation to rib the other person that really make me chuckle in this movie so they're of a piece the the the the straws um no I'm not trained in physics or anything else I'm a self-made man and Oppenheimer says I can relate to that really yes my father was one just absolutely kills me the entire straws Oppenheimer so I'm not trained in physics or anything else I'm a self-made man and Oppenheimer says I can relate origin scene is you know it's just barb barb barb and it's such an effective setup not lowly just a shoe salesman actually incredible stuff I also quite like in the Oppenheimer gene chevalier sequence that I'm sorry I read it in the original German iconic hysterical just the very kind of like organic way that he's able to and it does help us feel that superiority you know because you have the adoration that people look at but then they're like okay this guy's like full of himself um and then I like when he's on the other side of that one grows uh you know uh I'd like to see um well if that's how you treat lieutenant colonel for the have this dry clean with nickels I hate to see how you treat a humble physicist if I ever meet one I'll let you know ouch it's good it's not a like laugh riot movie but there are some amusing lines and the rhythm of the language for people who are supposed to be that smart kind of has to deliver some rejoinders like that some singers that feel like they land and I think the first hour in particular has quite a few what about you joe oh no I mean I do think I my real answer is that entire Strauss Oppenheimer uh you know back and forth I'm gonna put a snarky answer instead and say but the biggest laugh for me is always when poor senate aide played by Alden Ehrenreich has to say uh Kennedy John F Kennedy it's the corniest moment of the whole movie and it's very funny let me I agree it's very corny if one of the reasons why I love JFK is because I saw it at a in the film as a kind of American gospel sure not understanding history at all and not being yet taught about JFK's assassination well I think a lot of people yeah and I think of this movie in a similar way where like if I had seen it when I was 13 I would have been like what John F Kennedy who I just learned about in school yesterday you know like there is a kind of and I've said this many times about Noel like there's a kind of adolescent glee with a lot of the writing that he puts in his films where it's like a little dopey and it's a little like overstated you know no I'm sure the moment when he was like reading American Prometheus or whatever and he's like wait yeah JFK was involved in this draw searing do you guys think that's a little breadcrumb though like tipping at interest in a future JFK story for Nolan the way that the Oppenheimer quote was previously would welcome it I don't I just feel like we've had so many JFK we have stories I want we had gotten a lot of coming um what if wishbones episode about the odyssey had stopped Christopher Nolan you're right or the return your favorite movie that you talked about you know Ralph Fiennes shows this dick what am I gonna do um how'd that go great great what did you do with that information I looked at my I looked at my television and I paused and I kept looking and then we hit play and I said to my husband can you go back once more and he did oh that's nice Adam's the best um one of the things this this genuinely makes me laugh it's not a funny line but it's just the way Damon says it as Groves when they're trying to recruit the various scientists and he goes why why how about because it's the most important fucking thing in the history of the world how about that it's just incredible this is so it is really funny isn't it the bitchiest he's ever been on screen oh man yeah it's between that and cantaloupe right if only he wore the tiny shorts in this movie okay you either die a hero you live long enough to see yourself become the villain who is the real villain of this movie Mallory Rubin so I mean obviously we've already talked about this it's it's not just literally straws and that character but specifically um through the lens of Nolan assessing Oppenheimer it is the idea of inadequacy right where does your insecurity lead you and like if you feel uh feeble in comparison to somebody who is achieving other things then what do you do so like when Kitty has that line you know the truly vindictive patient is saints so the lowly shoes man a shoe salesman not lowly you know that look on his face that you mentioned the isotope of all the like the things that we cut back to or forget about forward to many many times the isotope with a beer bottle and you do you know it's a more useful than a sandwich and then that lingering look on straw's face like this guy made me feel embarrassed and so I am going to destroy him and engage my every decision I make for the rest of my life and my career through ensuring that he can never impact policy again because impact policy is not going to happen again and so I'm going to destroy him and engage my every decision I make impacting policy means that he is undermining and dunking on me both publicly and just every minute of like every conversation that we have the um you don't know scientists like I do counselor they resent anyone who questions their judgment especially if you're not one of them like the way that he is projecting in that moment with that line he should be thanking me well he's not so so so good um I think the best the the the real bow on the line is that he's not this idea of like you are uh so desperate to be the one everybody looks at and calls great and calls accomplished when he keeps talking about straws keeps talking throughout the film about this einstein moment in the moment by the pond and what did he say what did he say he couldn't even meet my eye and then senate aid all that aaron rex said you know since nobody really knows what they said to each other that day is it possible they didn't talk about you at all is it possible Well, they spoke about something more important. It's just that even though that final stretch. That's a terrible line that Alden Aaron has to deliver. Is not my favorite part in the language and deafness of the dialogue is not the best in that stretch. The idea behind it is quite effective. Oh, yeah. I don't think about you at all. He's Ginsburg, you know? What's your answer here? Well, the movie isn't a nest full of vipers, right? You've got William Borden, the lawyer and hack who's brought in to lie about something that Oppenheimer didn't do. You've got Boris Pash, the incredibly menacing and dangerous military intelligence officer that Casey Affleck plays. You've got, obviously, Strauss. You've got Edward Teller, who sort of betrays Oppenheimer ideologically and even practically. You've got Roger Robb, who's the vicious, I guess, prosecutorial attorney. You've got Heisenberg, you know, who's sort of a traitor to the idea of science and working with a corrupt empire. I think there's something really interesting in Ernest Lawrence, the Hartnett character, who is a compatriot and a fellow traveler in some ways but not in others. And you'll encounter someone. You'll encounter someone like this in any career, or somebody who seems to be on your side. And when things are good, they're with you. And when things start to turn, their allegiances wilt a bit. And it doesn't mean that they hate you or you hate them, but you're not all in it together. And I think this movie is an interesting portrayal of, like, a lot of different kinds of loyalty or the absence of. And so I don't know if there's any one true villain throughout the story, even though Strauss is so demarcated to be the bad guy. But rewatching the movie last week, I'm thinking about using someone like Hartnett, who was meant for this big, fancy Hollywood career and kind of flamed out. And was always a good actor and an interesting actor and one of those classic, like, Brad Pitt character actor and a leading man's body types. And he's so tall and so handsome and he's so, like, on the side of right and this is what the American cause will be and your attempts to unionize this shop or your inability to really. communicate to the military that you understand what's really at stake here with this story shows that, like, compromise is kind of at the heart of all of this. And it depends on how much of an ideologue you are, I think. As I get older, like, I'm much less of an ideologue because I think that's impractical. And, like, I'm just trying to get to the second half of my life in many ways. And so you find a lot of people. And so, like, I do relate to Lawrence in some ways, but I also feel that the movie is kind of ungenerous towards him in a very subtle way, in a movie that is not very subtle. And that's such an interesting I'm glad you brought him up because he is a really interesting, interestingly deployed character. And, like, I find it I always find it fascinating revisiting it to see that in a movie where, like, there's a routine conversation among different parties and characters about who can you trust? Is there a spy? What don't we know? What information is making it out the door? Even something like Oppenheimer eventually having to give up Chevalier's name when he tried. It's so hard not to. The idea of, like, when do you have to bend? Where Lawrence, even though he's doing all of the things you outlined, he never hides his intention ever. He is in some way, like, the most forthright and true character. He's like, I'm telling you to your face. I can't put you on the project for this reason. I'm telling you to your face. I've been to those Berkeley meetings. You shouldn't go. Now, we don't have to agree with him. And I'm sure many people are appalled. I'm sure many people are appalled by the morality of his stance. But the fact that he's not trying to hide it from Robert or other people is interesting. And then building toward the fact that, like, he, when he shows up, when he's called to. That's the moment I respect him the least. And then he, like, shrinks out. That he, like, was going to do it and then he, like, leaves. Got shamed into it. Yeah, got shamed by Izzy. Case of colitis. And then slinks away and is like, ugh. Yeah. Dummy. What's fun? So, like, a couple, I want to mention a couple things. I love how you talk about the, how the casting of Hartnett himself tells its own story. And, of course, like, everyone. I said this. But the way in which he, Nolan, casts all these familiar actors in, you know. So, even down to, like, Jack Quaid being here or whatever. Helps us, orient us so we don't get lost in the sea of millions of characters. Such a smart idea. It's really, really smart. Lawrence is so funny because growing up in the Bay Area, the Lawrence Hall of Science is, like, where you, like, you go and you see all the. Like, it's this, like, place you go on a field trip. And so, every time they say, like, Lawrence, I'm like, it's named after Ernest Lawrence. I was like, the Lawrence Hall of Science. The Lawrence Hall of Science in the Bay Area. But, like, he's such a nobody, nothing, not accomplished character. But, like, is the name I knew better than anyone else. I mean, but, you know, like, he's almost probably a person who could sustain his own biopic. You know, given his own accomplishments. But he's sort of a necessary tool in Oppenheimer. The other thing this movie does that I love is as we revisit scenes, the way in which, like, other characters are revealed to have been in the room. Just the camera didn't show us. The camera didn't show us earlier. You know, the big one is, like, when we move the flower arrangement. You're like, Dane DeHaan, what are you doing here? Whatever. Jump scare. But just sort of, like, turning around the table, you're like, oh, Lawrence was there in that scene or whatever. Or, like, the big one is, like, oh, Strauss is, you know, like, et cetera. I'm going to give it to not a person, but just the concept of restless ambition. And that hits a number of people on the power front and on the pursuit of ideas, you know, Jurassic Park front. Okay. Are you watching closely Most Exquisitely Gorgeous Shot? I'm going to go first here and give it to – it's a superhero suiting up moment. And it's after Ravi, Krumholtz's character, says, they need us for who we are, so be yourself, only better. We see Oppenheimer take the military uniform off and put the hat on and pick up the pipe. And just, like, as the light is streaming in and he's standing in front of the window and the gorn's in score, he's going crazy, like, it's – and then he walks out. And in the screenplay – He had that shit on. Yeah, he had that shit on. In the screenplay, which is told in the first person, it's an insane screenplay. It's great. I pull on a jacket, run a hand through newly shorn, close-cropped dark hair, put on a pork pie hat, pick up my pipe. And then exterior Los Alamos under construction moments later, I walk the main drag like a sheriff, nodding at construction workers as I pass the iconic J. Robert Oppenheimer. So, this is – This idea of, like, Nolan and the concept of costuming, which we've talked about since following, like, this is the thing of, like, sort of what does it mean for Guy Pearce to be wearing that suit in Memento or what does it mean for, of course, Batman to suit up or, you know, all of these various moments. And I think about Nolan himself. Sean is very responsibly, like, restraining himself from psychoanalyzing Christopher Nolan. I love to psychoanalyze Christopher Nolan. And, like, the fact that he has, like, created his own directorial uniform, you know. Did you see those photos recently of him in shorts at Universal? No. Studios? He was, like, at Universal Studios. For shame. And I was just like, nothing for shame. Was he playing, like, a game, like, a pick-up hoops game? No, he was just out at the park and he was a man who was, like, it's oppressively hot, I want to wear shorts. But I was, like, where's the overcoat? I don't – I know. I don't – like, Christopher Nolan needs to be wearing an overcoat and a crisp white collared shirt. Like, he has his own uniform. Well, he wasn't at work, right? If you're not at work. That's what I'm saying. But at work, no shorts. No shorts at work. This is a long-standing fantasy role. Oh, okay. All right. But at play – At play? At play at City Walk. Okay. I think that guy loves City Walk. He does. It's his own base. He's always there. It's wild. It's so hard to get in there. Weird. Do you think he has his own parking spot? I don't think he has to go through security. Yeah, he must have his own parking spot. Sean, what's your answer here? I already mentioned it, which is that image of him being hoisted and the American flag positioned directly behind him. And, you know, the sort of, like, false promise of the future and a lot of how the second half of the movie is really about. Right. Like, destruction of lives and the soul. Just that? Just that. I'll go with kind of an obvious one, but just the light wave, star explosion, atmospheric ignition, collapsing star, black hole, gravity well, interstitials that we get – that we cut to throughout the entire film. Not only because – especially, like, bending light. I'm not a physicist. I'm not a quantum mechanics. I'm not a scholar, a physicist. You're not? I'm not to the list. But not only because they look cool, but because I think it also then further unlocks something that the movie does kind of amazingly well, which is actually inject a lot of quantum mechanics, physics, science without ever tripping you up on that at all. Mm-hmm. At all. They're talking about black holes. They're talking about splitting the atom. They're talking about this – the nuclei, this and that. Teller's running his calculations of uranium, plutonium. Heavy water. Oh, my God. They made a mistake. And you're like, don't need to understand any of that. You see the big fireball, and you're like, got it. You don't even need Mr. DNA to explain it. Exactly. You don't. Yeah. No, always will. They do have the – I can't remember. It's the uranium – The marbles. The marbles. They do have these kind of visual signifiers of accomplishment, of sort of reaching a point that is also just, like, very simple, straightforward, but so simple and straightforward that most people wouldn't think to create storytelling that is able to communicate to you. Yeah. Like, we've made progress. Like, especially in a movie with so much montage that you can kind of, like, stack the marbles over time. It's very, you know, elegant little piece of storytelling. So it's marble stacking and then suddenly Peter going from being a baby to, like, walking around and then there's another baby. Like, little things like that. Time passing. Inside of just the Los Alamos stretch, because obviously we have Cillian Murphy looking quite different across time because we're covering many years. But always handsome. Just amazingly so. Those cheekbones. I also love, to your point about that, I love learning how much of that was done practically. Like that in the behind the scenes, you can see the lights that they were just sort of like moving in front of the camera in front of a shot of Cillian Murphy to give us some of those images. I can't remember to forget you the scene you think about the most, Sean Fennessey. I think it's the Trinity test, right? I mean, it's the best scene in the movie. It's the most ecstatic piece of filmmaking I think he's probably ever made. It's an event. I was skewered on the internet when the trailer of this movie came out and I was like, we know this story. Why do we need this? Very foolishly. And then loved the movie. Did you know everything about straws, though? No. And of course I didn't know everything. I was like, what the hell was I talking about? You know what's fun about getting older is like sometimes it's really fun to be wrong. It used to really embarrass me and now I'm just sort of like, you know what, this is so human. I feel the exact same way. Specifically about this where I was like, how nice that my own ego can be lapsed by my wonder and excitement about something because it would have been the former when I was younger. But this one in particular, the whole point of a movie like this is not that you know the information. It's experience. It's experiencing someone's perception of the information. And the Trinity Test is just bravura filmmaking and thrilling. Yeah, it's incredible. That's my runner up. I think like you said earlier, there are kind of two contenders for this category. It's Trinity Test or the post-bombing speech. And that's my pick. I think that sequence in the gym on the bleachers with the chanting and the stamping and we've cut elsewhere to the feet pounding. The bleachers and we know the hold that moment has on him moving forward, you know, in the super meeting later when we're cutting to it. But the way like we have the actual language of the speech that you already outlined, Joe, but then like, you know, the flash of light and the ash falling from the sky, the way that the sound is just sucked out of the scene. So you see these screaming, cheering faces, but you don't hear them anymore. We're hearing like the heartbeat we're hearing. And then, of course, the cut to the face, you know, the flaking. The flaking skin on Christopher Nolan's own daughter's face. We're not going to psychoanalyze Christopher Nolan. It's all right there. Stepping into the burnt body on the ground. And then amid the cheering and the celebration, the euphoria on this horrible moment and the guilt and shame, you know, that basically is the final stretch of the odyssey starting to creep into Oppenheimer right here on Oppenheimer's face in real time. And then you start to see like it's not not everybody's cheering. Somebody's sobbing. Somebody's vomiting. Like there are people who. Realize what this means. And then we cut right from that scene to the time cover. The father of the atomic bomb. It's just really, really, really jaw dropping. So that's my pick. But I did consider Trinity test because I agree. It's amazing. Those are both perfect picks for some reason. The moment that even when I was more critical of this film and I am before I learned how to stop worrying and embrace it is the meeting where it's decided where in Japan they'll drop the bomb. Oh, yeah. And James Remar, who comes back as Teresa. And the odyssey says, I've taken Kyoto off the list. I honeymoon their honeymoon there. And so just sort of the like absolutely poisonous, arbitrary nature of like, you know, it's great cultural significance. And also I honeymoon there. So we won't kill everyone who lives there. There's a fascinating real world resonance there, too, which is the James Remar is married to a Japanese woman. No, I didn't know that. It's just a fascinating choice. Yeah. He doesn't speak English. He does this with an accent thicker than sauerkraut sauce. Most baffling. Most baffling accent. Easy pick. Are you giving it to Brana? I know for once I'm not. I think every time. Yeah, it's been Brana every other time. But is it a Safdie brother then? It is my guy, Manny Safdie as Teller doing his best Hungarian here, I guess. Urge them to continue my research on the super is the line where I'm just like. What's going on here? And I actually think I actually think his performance as Teller is great. There's the. Just the right. He's striking something really specific there from the minute he they want to keep him at Oppenheimer's like, like, keep him out and just barges right in. You know, everything totally about the performance is great. But the accent is confounding to me. Yeah, I think that would be the go to for most people. I do think Jason Clarke attempting like a semi New England prosecutor is like it's it's there's some moments that I noted that. We're a little strange in a perfect emotional performance. Killian Murphy is sometimes and my girl Emily Blunt is sometimes both are quite mannered from the UK. All right. No one cared who I was until I put on the mask. Best use of a Nolan verse regular. I'll go first. I mean. I would not have thought of dust Malkin as a regular, but and, you know, he's a. A. A very famous figure amongst horror movie fans and has appeared very many a lot of horror movies over the years. And he's often used as like a goblin in movies, you know, like a like a boogeyman. And he's a real American boogeyman in this movie. He really is the person who like is potentially going to fell one of our great minds. And I had just forgotten that he is so important. Is it in Dark Knight or Batman? Dark Knight, right? As the Joker Allegiant dressed up in a police uniform. That was like his first sort of I think maybe his first big mainstream part or was it really maybe something. So that I mean, that's that's a very interesting little Nolan esque callback. So I like that. But he I mean, he's great at this. Like he's got a huge troop now. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I do like that. His first role. That's amazing. Fun fact. He's got one of those faces. I don't know. The pick is obviously killing Murphy. It's like hard to make the I can't really talk myself into making any other case. But I will say. I really like I admire the commitment to getting is like we're going to get Gary Oldman in here. We have to find a way. This cast has a thousand people in it. And that that scene in the Oval Office is so good. But also, obviously, the address and other moments. That's another outrageous accent in this movie. Yeah. I mean, it's been fun for us to track. And as you know, my answer, as much as Brana has been in the accent category, my answer has often been. Yes. Killian Murphy, because I'm such a huge Scarecrow Jonathan Crane fan. I love the way in which Killian Murphy. And we. We talked about this with Damon as well. This sort of like showing up for small roles and being rewarded with like the big, shiny center stage. That's Melchion starring role. When? Yeah. That's my question. Yeah. Are you going with Jefferson Hall here? Are you going Tylan Lannister? I'm going to go with Damon. I just like. Yeah. I love how Damon is used in this movie. He's great. I just think he's. And like the way he looks in this movie, the mustache. And also just like what you learn about Groves in terms of like the performance he's putting on. Mm hmm. You know, and then Oppenheimer's like, um, I looked into you. Yeah. He went study engineering at MIT. Like, this is weird. So like the performance inside of the performance inside of the performance of Matt Damon. And also just like the meta nature of Casey Affleck also being here is just quite fun. I think. All right. Amateurs seek the sun, get eaten. Power stays in the shadows. Said by one Mr. Straws. Stealth MVP of this movie that not enough people talk about. Difficult movie. For this category, given how many aspects of this movie have been literally awarded with an Oscar, but also celebrated in many forms. I'm going with the size of the cast, specifically the commitment to incorporating that the volume of scientists who the film finds some way to name or give one line to. Like, I tend to forget when I come back. I watch this movie and I'm like, yeah, Jack Quaid's in this movie, you know? Josh Peck is here. Yeah. Which wolf brother is that? Josh Peck is here is a great one, you know? Like, is that that guy from CW show The 100? It is, you know? Like, they're all here. And the thing that I think it achieves is just giving you a real sense of how many, despite this movie being so fully about Oppenheimer's, we've talked about how many people had to contribute to this and participated in this. It's like the film's version of that Groves-Oppenheimer exchange. Where it's, like, hard to put a price tag on it. It's like, not really. Just, like, add up all the bills, you know? Hard to give you a sense of how many people were involved in the Manhattan Project. Put, like, 400 of them in this movie, you know? So, I think it achieves something that is necessary to balance out centering so much of this on Oppenheimer himself. Sean Fennessey. I didn't know you could do that. You could answer questions by saying the totality of something. Pick anything you want. You can do anything you want with these categories. That's cheating. You can also just be, like, the editing. The cinematography. Oh, okay. You can do anything you want. Yeah, I didn't think about it that way. I am doing anything. Yeah. I was going, see, I was, that was when I had first, but, like, you know. She won an Oscar. I know. But people don't say her name enough, I think, so. She's wonderful. I interviewed her for this film and is just, like, the most normal, down-to-earth person. And this just, I think editing Christopher Nolan's movies, they sound like hell to me. Probably challenging, yeah. And this one in particular is just, the tonnage. It's insane. And, you know, you talked about it with the size of the cast. I mean, there's just so many speaking parts and there's so many intersecting and interweaving plot lines. and film stock styles and the music and the way that it has to kind of match perfectly with so many of the images that are created and so I think that's a great pick I mean I was just going to pick David Krumholz because I just think he's the heart and soul of the movie and I was going to pick Krumholz but my memory and I think it's just because I'm in like a certain or three years ago I was in a certain corner of Twitter like my memory was like so many people were like Krumholz should have won the Oscar like instead of Downey I was one of those people yeah Krumholz should have won and it's one of those things where it is kind of a little microcosmic snapshot of how the Academy Awards were where like there was never a moment not even a second where David Krumholz was even going to be nominated that was not on the table because this is a very mechanized system where when this movie came out it was very clear that Downey was going to run and that he was going to have his moment and if it wasn't going to be Downey or if there were going to be two nominations the other one probably would have been Matt Damon and then you get on the list and like maybe Krumholz is third or fourth but you know I think it's kind of important over time to continue to give performers their laurels even if they're not recognized by the Academy and it's very common for bigger stars to get their awards in supporting categories when they've been overlooked you know but Downey should have won for like Chaplin like 35 years ago you know what I mean it's one of those things where like why did that not happen then I don't know do you think he'll win again for playing Victor Von Doom I don't but you know what who knows if Downey had won for The Judge which is what he wanted to have happen that one year or what if he had won for that documentary he made about his dad oh yeah senior yeah that he was really like there were these like he's running he's running years and then it was like he's running and he has a path to it but like we were talking about this with like this year as we talk about Anne Hathaway versus Samantha Morton like is this a moment this is the exact same race the exact same race is Anne Hathaway getting her second Oscar and when she came out on stage at D23 I was just like Jesus Christ she's brought down the house until yeah the entire stadium erupted for her like seven months pregnant yeah until she drops that baby like she is going to be on every single stage um that's all about whether she picks supporting or lead or whether whatever they pick we were discussing that but and my question was like what if the critical groups start because in supporting I really feel like those critical sorry I always talk about the Oscars but like those critical group awards when they start gathering steam behind like a Patricia Arquette or something like that like it can go so like if Samantha Morton starts winning those the narrative could change and if Krumholz had like started winning those critical group like yeah it's possible like Regina King and Beale Street like that kind of a thing like those things do happen yeah um it's why part of why Amy Madigan was able to like you know make it all that way so that was one for sure that's like the one path if Samantha Morton like starts cropping up in those that's the one path she could have otherwise it's and to your point category for the record I like Downey in the movie I think it's very overstated his performance because I think he doesn't really know how to act anymore but um it's not I find it's appropriate for the movie because he is written as a villainous type so I like him in the scene scenes with Oppenheimer yeah like I think those scenes are really good um I just it might be more of a writing issue but to your point like I think he should have won for Chaplin or a number of other things that he has done in the past that I'm delighted he has an Oscar um okay you're waiting on a train a train that will take you far away best dead girl moment we just had to do it we had to do it it's one of my favorite categories Kelly Murphy being fucked by the ghost of Florence Pugh uh inside of a hearing uh it's gotta be it's gotta be either that yeah or as we already talked about um Oppie flashing to the hair in the bathtub as uh Roger Robb is just berating him about whether he would have used the H-bomb like consequences of my action dead girl moment I'm with you on both of them those seem appropriate that seems right or putting his daughter this has been just yeah or that melting off of his daughter or something like that just a classic category that's a good one as well uh it's just something he loves to do and we were like it's not gonna happen in the Odyssey and then it did okay um they won't fear it until they understand it and they won't understand it until they've used it clear as great man moment we've already talked about a lot of this uh when Sean raised this earlier but anything you wanna I'll just rapid fire read a couple um emblematic quotes sure to kind of put a bow on the discussion we've had all pod Lawrence because you're not just self-important you're actually important Chevalier you see beyond the world we live in there's a price to be paid for that easy when you speak they hear a prophet oh my god incredible Oppenheimer himself are our work here will ensure a peace mankind has never seen uh Sillard you're the great salesman of science Oppenheimer himself calling it divine power uh and then uh straws with you know great envy and jealousy saying because it made him the most important man who ever lived Robert built that damn place he was founder mayor sheriff all rolled into one I really like the scene when he comes to teach and Lominitz is his first student and only student in the class and he immediately starts lecturing and you kind of see Oppenheimer's mind come alive and you know it's paradoxical and yet it works like that scene too where it's sort of like this guy's smart and he's smarter than everybody else and he's gonna tell you why he's so smart as a sort of like lead up to a lot of the moments that you guys are describing I love that Sean an idea is like a virus resilient highly contagious the line that hits hard is three years later maybe it is it's paradoxical and yet it works which is like I think it maybe the best defense of this movie that I could make which is like something that is as overstated in the third act as it possibly is should kind of pull this thing down from with inside it but I still like it like I'm still it still it still turns me on fusion and fission baby that's right I'm tempted to go with Bohr's algebra is like sheet music the important thing isn't can you read music it's can you hear it can you hear the music Robert but it's been a category title for us so that makes me feel like it's disqualified because we've mentioned it now 13 times already on other podcasts but whenever I hear that line in the movie I feel the Goranson's score oh my god I know it does which I think it's called can you hear the music it gives you it gives like you a chill watching it so instead I will go with my guy Teller and his flawless pitch perfect accent J. Robert Oppenheimer sphinx like guru of the atom nobody knows what you believe do you because I think nobody knows what you believe do you is actually quite effective and pointed in a good way what about you Joe our guy Chevalier you see beyond the world we live in there's a price to be paid for that or when Oppenheimer is talking to I can't remember his name the scientist who he calls a fellow traveler where he's like they need us and he's like until they don't right so this idea of like going in tandem with the great man ideas is sort of like they will worship you and they will build you up and they will be equally excited to tear you down like that is part and parcel of the whole narrative yeah I love that you think darkness is ally you're ally but you really adopt the dark I was born in it molded by it most devastating moment this was one of the easier categories for me it's kind of obvious but but I do just think the end like the Einstein Oppenheimer scene Albert when I came to you with those calculations we thought we might start a chain reaction that would destroy the entire world I remember well what of it I believe we did and then the meme the meme face and then the atmospheric ignition it's like that's a good ending to a movie it is and so I'm like the 30-ish minutes that preceded I'm like and then at the end I'm just like Godfather 3 pulled me back in it really hits hard that was also my answer that's a great answer I'll go with it can you hear the music Robert most unforgettable Goranssonism Zimmerism really works better than Goranssonism Ludwigism Ludwigism you know I saw him at Tartine across the street the other day here? yeah our Tartine sheesh sorry not to call out Ludwig also interviewed him for this film Lovely Man genius yeah he's great you're the best well I did you're the greatest can you hear the music is my answer this is the the you referenced this montage earlier it's when it's not just science but it's also modernist art and it's also he's reading The Wasteland you know it's just like all of the cultural moments that go into the ideas that are sparking and coming alive well yeah I mean it's a very haughty thing that if not done well can seem so pretentious but I love haughty I do too I mean I wish more artists would aspire to these things that like the intersection between art and science is real and that form breakers no matter what the medium inspire people and obviously Oppenheimer's very inspired by or Nolan is very inspired by Oppenheimer in some ways and he's very inspired by these great artists and figures who you know a man staring at a Picasso and realizing it doesn't have to be I know perceptionally exactly what you think it is is a little much but I do like it like it did hit me I did I was I felt very forgiving of it despite its obviousness I liked it a lot I'm going with the final prep stretch before the trinity test and this has actually been my pick for the can you hear the music category in a lot of movies the Zimmer ones like when the score functions in a Nolan movie like Clock you know the ticking you can feel the ticking of it the anxiety the way that it heightens that feeling in your chest and in your gut this is really like an astonishing example of that the way that there's like a almost Geiger meter like sound effect incorporated because of the fear and the terror the role the incorporation to the pairing with the score of the natural elements like the thunder the rolling in of the thunder and the clouds the flapping of the sheets you know priming us for the bring the sheets in music and then I'm like is that a fiddle maybe it's not I don't know but just even the choice of instruments is very effective and surprising it's amazing let me think Goranson said about sort of which instruments he chose is that they wanted to make you know and I love when they talked about this with the Odyssey but for this that they wanted to make almost like Peter and the Wolf style that the violin is the sound of Oppenheimer because because it can go from beautifully melodic to like horror movie screeching yes and sort of like so it can just like you know be both this like act of creation and then just this act of horror at the same time Sean Fantasy anything you want to add here? no I think it's that first sequence it's not the first sequence it's the sort of like after he's been challenged by Niels Bohr and he goes into this like state of intellectualizing about fission and fusion that I think is probably the score moment that resonates the most for me two more to go and then we're done with the Nolan rewatch how sad okay for me I think this is the end of a beautiful friendship actor who has yet to return to the Nolanverse but should this was much more fun when we were doing like way earlier basically these are actors who have not been in the Odyssey yeah exactly but I'm gonna give it to Krumholtz who I said Krumholtz who has quit acting but I guess has since walked that back but Krumholtz should be in everything and like would I put Krumholtz in the Odyssey? sure like Guzamo I love you but Krumholtz? as Eumaeus? he's wonderful that would be fun I don't know I think Nolan needs to try to write a movie told directly from the perspective of a woman and I think with Florence Pugh it would be interesting this is my pick as well let's get Pugh back let's get Pugh back in a Nolan movie you don't think if he finally makes a movie from the point of view of a woman it's definitely gonna be Hannah Hathaway it's gotta be Hannah Hathaway like she's put in her time I know it's her time yeah I just think there's gonna be a second woman in that movie that would be shocking oh what maybe it could be would they talk to each other? never would they talk to each other about anything other than a man? not only can they not be in the same room they can't be in the same time they will both die so don't worry about it yeah I just I feel like Florence Pugh is one of the very few like under 35 female movie stars in America and has had kind of a weird five years where I don't really you know no shots of Thunderbolts which I like fuck off this is Yelena Belova HQ right here it is and I like her and I liked her in Spider-Man a lot but like she's there's more there I've watched a bit of East of Eden it was good oh okay like what she's doing that's TV it's a TV show yeah but come on she's a movie star why did she make a TV show? unbelievable because Silk is unbelievable come on come on she's supposed to be like our Barbara Stanwyck man like she's like brassy and tough and smart and sexy and like a very classy movie star type that I love and I think she brings again a lot of gravitas to a weird part like Jean has written very strangely in this movie stuff she has to do while wearing no clothes is would be questionable I think with most actresses and she I think makes what is very unbelievable on the page I think work in the film and so I like to see her get a little more to do same I look forward to you walking back your brisk merging of East of Eden when you're like I finally watched Andor and guess what it was a masterpiece I know I mean two of the formative voices in my life right East of Eden is Steinbeck yeah and George Lucas yeah sure okay Tony Gilroy and Zoe Kazan like yeah I love Zoe Kazan I know you do alright Mallory pew pew as well pew pew pew alright some men just want to watch the world burn the most Nolan thing about this movie I don't have anything to add beyond what we've already covered today I mean it's a astonishingly edited movie , filmed, scored, practically effects enhanced non-linear exploration of a great man confronting his impact and legacy on the world and it's you know I guess maybe one thing worth talking about given that this and Odyssey were back to back it's just like Nolan's era of adapting history or historical works versus like original storytelling that's interesting do you think he'll stay in that stretch for a while or go back to like the tenant well if we get our JFK yeah JFK told from this perspective of Jackie as played by Anne Hathaway I'm in I'm interested you have my attention I have seen the film Jackie starring Natalie Portman I love that movie yeah I do too very interesting movie I what he does next is fascinating to me yeah you know he's he's hinting around at making a horror movie which I think would be a lot of fun based on what we saw in the Odyssey yeah the Odyssey is a horror movie in terms of like those germs of the next movie being in the movie it'd be really great though if he was just like I'm rebooting Nightmare on Elm Street like he's obviously not gonna do that I I think this is kind of the summation of the style right yeah and a lot of the things that I bumped on in previous films I felt more forgiving of in this movie I think maybe because stylistically and narratively it felt like a step forward and also like it's a true story and and didn't doesn't seem to take very many liberties with the truth in a way that a lot of movies like this go under the microscope so yeah when you Sean Fantasy if there's a storyteller that hasn't worked for you and then they do something that hits for you you know and you're like you know what Nolan movies aren't really for me and then you see off and you're transformed but that will see that that's a misnomer about my relationship to Christopher Nolan and I've been saying this like a thousand times but I was all in on Memento I saw Insomnia in theaters I liked it I really liked the prestige and I always said that to me the bump was where most people were like wow you know Dark Knight Inception that's like the greatest thing that ever happened to me because I was 14 when those movies came out and I understand that perspective I have my movies like that as well but Inception in particular was a movie that just didn't really labyrinth yeah I mean it happens well my question was and this is not about changing your score of Inception I'm trying to think of who's a director who like made five movies that I didn't like and then their sixth movie I did like you don't have an answer for that I mean I guess my it's usually the opposite it's like Zack Snyder like I really was interested in the first couple of Zack Snyder movies and he really went off the rails I think I find here's what I'll say that like I guess the entire body of Nolan's work just enhances all the previous films for me and this rewatch project has you know and so just sort of like being able to think of it as one large story and so when you when you have a stretch of Nolan that you appreciate and then he sort of like goes off the rails for you commercially whatever it is and then he like comes back around to a sort of haughty intellectual space that you love to exist in does it like reflect a shine back on some of these other films where you're like that didn't really work for me but I see how these ideas have been percolating inside of them and you need them to get here I don't know I mean it's been it's been I rewatched Inception and Interstellar during COVID just in a real like I'm having a family I'm buying a home like having this kind of like maybe I should revisit some of my strongly held opinions and in both cases I kind of landed with those movies where I had always been which is like like some things about it don't like some things about it the things I don't like about it I find it very hard to certify loving the movie and I love a lot of movies it's not that uncommon for me to love a movie and I want to love most movies but and I don't think either of those movies are cynical at all I just think they're a little immature and I don't think that his most recent run of movies are immature Tenet is like a big experiment it might be the most immature movie he's ever made but it's such a fun experiment that I can't help getting caught up in it we love a swing we do we love a swing these last two though they're they're movies made my I'll say made by a man in the second half of his life who's who's no longer aspirational and more just trying to use the powers and skills and tools that he's figured out how to work with and and to try to make something a little bit bigger and like dare I say like more lasting and meaningful right whereas James Cameron took the same opportunity to be like what if hot cat blue alien people fuck well yes and no but I mean I'm more forgiving of those movies too because he's like we are living amidst an ecological disaster and I'll make a parable for our times about this disaster and about the military industrial complex which I had previously valorized you know uncomplicatedly in the past Sean don't make me reconsider Avatar I can't do it I you know you can still hate it you got really you got really close right there that was impressive I don't it's the same thing where like I think a lot of these guys when we start when they start thinking about their legacies they sometimes take swings that are very self-serious yes and that can really backfire Nolan is the case for me where it's really working he's like what like what is my life all about yeah and how can I see it through yeah these people to me is more interesting than I've made a third Batman film sure but that had Bane in it I know you guys remember Bane I get it I like Bane Bane rules I'm gonna end by returning to this again this you don't want the last words of the Bane rules 15 month project to be Bane rules guess what you can end on that we'll come back to it something to think about Ciara incepted this idea of like trying to go home right and I've been sort of thinking about it and so thinking about it as it returns to like how it pertains to Oppenheimer and the Odyssey of like not just trying to go you can't go home again so this idea that Robert Oppenheimer took his idea of heaven which is New Mexico this like very nostalgic place and made hell of his heaven like turned it into an inferno and then made you know in the same way that Odysseus is like I broke the world I can't go home again I'm trying to go home I don't really want to go home because I've forever changed our society and I can't go home again so like these last two really being the you-can't-go-home-again movies. Mm-hmm. I think that's incredibly interesting. So I really like that. That's a beautiful observation. I love the way that. But also Bane rules, you know? Also Bane rules. It's something to think about. Your body. Robbie, our guy, is he like. He voices that in a way that inside of this question of like, what have you brought in the world? Like also, what have you. What has the impact been on your own circumstance and the thing you cherish? When Robbie's like, you drop a bomb and it falls on the just and the unjust. I don't wish the culmination of three centuries of physics to be a weapon of mass destruction. Like, what are you doing inside of your own life too? And what is the cost of that? I don't know. There's something I think quite honest about that, that that maybe has more of a hold on people. We wouldn't like to think it, but that probably has more of a hold on people than what is the cost of the thing that you did to the world. And Bane rules. And Bane rules. Sean Fantasy rules. You guys rule. Sean, thanks so much for doing this. What a project, what a podcast. Thanks for joining us, bud. When will you come back? Will you come back to talk next year about Oswald with us? Well, sure. I didn't bring my Oswald trading cards for Sean. I'm sorry. Did they show a trailer for that series? Yeah, a little, like a cute little clip. And they gave us trading cards. They're commemorative from that night only. And Joanna got one and was like, I'm going to give it to a stranger. Did Favreau speak of the Mandalorian and Grogu? Did it come up? It didn't come up. He did come out and he said, this is a really personal project that I'm going to do. And I went, aren't they all, John? And it was the funniest moment of D23 for me. It was really good. Thank you to Sean Fantasy. Thank you to our team of scientists, Carlos Chiriboga, Scott Lee, Jacob Cornett, Arjuna Renggut-Powell, Jomia Deneron, all played by Oscar-winning actors like Rami Malek and Casey Affleck and the rest, Gary Oldman. Thanks to Christopher Nolan for making great movies for a couple decades that we get to watch and talk about. I've always been saying that. What a treat. Always been on the right side of history. And we will be back with Lanterns episode three on Monday. See you soon. Bye. Fan rules!