Operator Peter Rosenfeld, SOC

Speaker 2 Welcome back to the OP. On today's episode we will be discussing David Fincher and not moving the frame prepping before your shoot, being the Ricardo's Gone Girl and of course that age-old debate monitor or eyepiece. Just a little bit of business before we start. There may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. Make sure to check out our website, the op dot IO, especially the breakdown where operators talk about everything that goes into the making of a shot. And read the musings for discussions about everything from quick tips to larger concepts behind operating. I may or may not take a couple of breaks during this episode, but I promise you none of them will be longer than 22 seconds. Finally, if you are enjoying the podcast, please follow us, like us, talk about us, and share us with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back and enjoy the OP. Thanks for listening. Speaker 1 Like it? Up, Nice and quiet, and let's roll. Speaker 2 Victor, 30E, take two. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the OP, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I'm Dave Kumadi's your host, and we are here again in Panavision, Woodland Hills, who have, they have so graciously allowed me to use their theater. So it sounds better. So I'm very excited about that. We have a great guest here today, Peter Rosenfeld, an A camera Steadicam operator who has done more than 80 feature films including but not limited to Spider Man, No Way Home, but seemingly all of the Ant Man movies on some level. Chicago, Gone Girl, American Sniper, The Social Network, The Notebook, The list goes on and on. Let me see if I Peter, if I got I got all this right. In 2011, he was nominated for the SoC Camera Operator of the Year award for Social Network, in 2012 he was nominated for Cowboys Versus Aliens, and in 2015 he was nominated for both Into the Storm and Gone Girl. He's worked for directors such as, but not limited to, Oliver Stone, Clint Eastwood, Nancy Meyers, Katherine Bigelow, Sam Raimi, David Fincher. And as earlier in his career as a news cameraman and documentary cameraman, he covered the massacre of students in Beijing's Tiananmen Square and sent to Iraq to cover the Gulf War. And he filmed the collapse of the Berlin Wall. He's done a little bit of everything, and I'm really excited to have him here. Peter, thank you for being here today. Speaker 1 Thank you for inviting me. Boy it does sound good in here. I can understand why you want to use this place. Speaker 2 It sounds so much better than my daughters bedroom. Speaker 1 Even my own voice sounds good in here. Exactly. Anyway, thank you for having me. Yeah. Speaker 2 So, Peter, Peter, tell me your story. How'd you get here? Not, not how'd you get the Panavision, but how'd you get? Speaker 1 You mean the career, the career story. Speaker 2 Tell me, tell me the career story. Speaker 1 How much time have you got? Speaker 2 Yeah, a couple hours. Go for it. Speaker 1 No, I'm going to condense it all. I I started as camera assistant. I'm Canadian. I started in Montreal, Canada as a trainee and then a second assistant, and then things were busy because it was driven by tax breaks. It was written, you know, by labor tax credits, something we all became very familiar with later on. And then and then I discovered that those things can change and that one year the Canadian government took them away and the industry collapsed. So I bought AI, bought a film camera ACP 16. Speaker 2 Oh my gosh. Speaker 1 Wow, 16 millimeters. Speaker 2 When was this like, 1980s? Speaker 1 Oh yeah, It would have been in there. Yep. And I started just shooting newsreel. I started shooting anything, anything I could. And one thing led to another led to another eventually. I found my way in the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and became a a cameraman for them. Eventually became part of their documentary unit and and then they opened up some overseas bureaus, a foreign Bureau in Moscow. We had never had representation. There was just like a radio reporter, but they got visas back in 1988. And they offered me the job of working overseas and and that started a whole other career arc 'cause I went to Moscow for two years. Speaker 2 How old were you at that point? Speaker 1 Let's see, I would have been 28 or something like that. Speaker 2 And did you, Did you speak Russian before? Speaker 1 You. No, no, I learned it there. But The thing is, you know, I didn't want to be one of those people that go to these foreign countries and come out of there after several years without speaking the language 'cause then you only get so far in terms of your life. Speaker 2 You mean like an American kind? Speaker 1 Of. Yes, sadly. So I had a, you know, I had a language tutor there. Tatiana was her name every, every, I think twice a week or three times a week, 8:00 in the morning, Bang, Bang, bang on my door of my apartment. Be that. Beat that. Come time for Russian language. I opened the door and it's like, oh, Tatiana, we didn't finish until 2:00 in the morning last night. It's OK. Did you do your studies? Oh, God. So we would go in the kitchen. And yeah, so I had like, you know, I I learned Russia. I mean, my vocabulary was never really that perfect. But I could get on with what I needed to. Eating, working, dating. Those are the things. That's the vocabulary you need. The big three. Yeah. So I was in Russia for a while. I was there. The rise of Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin and all that kind of thing. I really hated living there, but that's mostly due because of the just for the life that you have there is very difficult. You know, it's hard to get things. It was difficult to move around. The conditions were pretty horrible. The we flew all the time from one end of the I've been to every single Republic or former Republic. I've been from Vladivostok to Lithuania, from Siberia to Azerbaijan. Speaker 2 Was it interesting at least? Even if it. Speaker 1 Was it was really interesting for the journalists because it was the biggest story in the world, the breakup of the Soviet Union? Union was a big deal for me as the cameraman. It was like the beeper would go off and they'd say you're going to Baku in Azerbaijan tomorrow and they go, great, what time is the statue of Lenin coming down? Because I'd like to have breakfast before that happens. Can you find out? And it was really I I got to be so jaded because how many times do you have to see the Lenin statue get pushed over? So, so that was kind of like the Russia thing. And then that when that was done, I guess they kind of liked working with me. So they offered me the China Bureau. And I went to China just in time for the crackdown in 1989 in the massacre in Tiananmen Square, which is a whole different thing. And then and then I ended up staying in China for, well, I guess it was two years of contract work for the CBC, which was a joint BBCCBC thing. That was each contract two years. I was there for four years for them. And then I stayed on as a Steadicam operator because I bought my first Steadicam while I lived there. Oh, wow. Knowing that I wanted to get out of news and current affairs, it got started getting a little too dangerous, started having. Speaker 2 Did you buy it in China or did you buy it from here and I? Speaker 1 Bought it here. I took the training here, but then I was still under contract to you know, so that was on my holiday. So I went back to China and then I remember we were we were filming on the set of a of a movie in China called Farewell, My Concubine and the The The Cameraman. His name is Gu Chung Wei. Oh, I can't believe I still remember that. All that stuff. Speaker 2 So you were you were doing a new? Speaker 1 We were doing a new star. Speaker 2 We were working for the documentary, you know, doing a documentary for a British program about about this film, the film, OK, so was this your first time on a, on a quote, UN quote film like set? Speaker 1 No, no, because previously I'd worked as an assistant. Speaker 2 I worked as a camera assistant. Speaker 1 Sorry. So I I, I, I knew the the the protocol and stuff but we were just doing a documentary and I've I was sitting beside Gu Chung Wei and. And just to make conversation in my limited Chinese, he spoke no English at the time. And I said, oh, you know, I actually have a steady Cam. And he grabbed my arm and he went, you have a steady Cam. I go, yeah, he goes, where is it? Well, it's in my apartment. What apartment? My apartment here in Beijing. You have a steady Cam in your apartment in Beijing. Anyway, one thing led to another when I finished my contract. He reached out to me and I started working on some of his movies. Speaker 2 Were there just no people with Steadicam? Speaker 1 I was the one that was it. If you wanted Steadicam in Asia, there's one number to call. Speaker 2 That's amazing. Wow. Speaker 1 And in fact, I trained the guy who kind of replaced me when I left. So I did like 3 movies back-to-back. But I like to say that often Steadicam operators start with, you know, music videos or commercials and they ease into it. My first day as a paid Steadicam operator where I was on salary. It was a night scene, a crane step off with 200 extras carrying torches through this village and take one, take one. I step off the crane and you know, rookie mistake. My knee hits the bottom of the sled Boeing. Everything goes, everything goes dutched and I go, I'm sorry guys and they go no problem. Back to 1-2 hundred people. And it's not like they had Larry Mcconkey to call they all. All they had was me. Speaker 2 So, so don't upset the Steadicam guy. Speaker 1 Yeah, just whatever they whatever you want, Peter, And it's incredible. And then so the learning curve was really steep and was really interesting. It was kind of lonely sometimes, 'cause I was the only English speaking person on a crew of 90 or so film people, so. Speaker 2 So it was kind of, yeah, some parts of it were tough, but did you have an interpreter with you? No, I had this is kind of at the back end of the whole China experience cause I'd already been there for four years so and my language skills in Chinese were better than they were in Russian cause oh, OK, so you could get by you just. Speaker 1 I could get by, yeah, I could talk to my crew. And the problem, of course in China is that everyone has, they're all have different dialects depending on where they're from. And even if they're speaking Mandarin, which was the dialect that I could speak, the accent that they would use, and when speaking Mandarin? Would often throw me oh wow. So and I'm hearing I'm thinking like, well, I'm. I'm hearing bits of Mandarin, but it's not making any sense. I would have to turn to someone who goes, I know why you're not understanding it. Speaker 2 Oh wow. I had no idea. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. The thing is, you can rehearse the questions, but you can't rehearse the answers. That's the thing about learning languages. So that's so. But. But you know, I did OK and I did fine. It was exhausting at times to always be thinking in another language while you're working. But but. But yeah, so that was China and then and then after after I finished a few movies there, I I came back you know, to this country and to Canada and then to here and and started working as a camera operator and AB camera operator doing Steadicam, doing day calls on Steadicam that eventually started working the A camera. And that's the story. Speaker 2 That's that's a great story. Well, let me just ask you because we're going to talk about feature films and whatnot, but documentary wise, are there things from when you were doing documentaries and and and and and news that translate to the storytelling devices I guess or or things that you know about in? Speaker 1 Film. Are you saying that there's anything that I dragged over from my documentary? Speaker 2 There must be some, but I'm wondering. Speaker 1 Oh, there's tons. And a lot of it is stuff you don't even really think about too much. But certainly there are more scene. Some scenes lend themselves to that kind of skills, others don't. I'm thinking now of a movie we talked about just in your prep. You asked me about it Into the Storm. That was a tornado movie, mostly handheld with a lot of action and, you know, a lot of stuff happening all off the shoulder. So yeah, a lot of those skills just kind of like, you know? Speaker 2 Come flowing back again, You don't even know that you're you're using them. Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, it's easier than doing it for real, 'cause I know that if I whip to the right, I know that there's a car that's going to flip over there. And if I whip to the left and there's going to be an actor's going to end to the frame and there's going to be something building that's going to collapse in the background. So it's kind of rehearsed in some way, but just the the kind of like the idea that you're just composing on the go, framing on the go, picking your focal lengths rapidly, you know, thinking of the. The edit, which you didn't really have to do on Into the Storm, but yeah, a lot of that stuff pulled over from documentary work. Speaker 2 I haven't done a lot of documentary, but I've really enjoyed the documentary work that I've done. But the the thing that was the biggest thing for me was I was in. I was in Haiti 3 weeks after the big earthquake in 2010. I was there for two weeks being part of a documentary that was already going on for a while, and they had gotten the OK to come because it's about partners in health and you sort of couldn't not tell this. It's a big, long story. But one of the things that I found that was interesting was I'd I'd be on the story, whatever the story was, but I'd constantly sort of be looking around to see if I'm missing something else and and instantly trying to judge what that was. So does that part of it translate over to your sort of Spidey senses? Of what else? Speaker 1 Particularly with unrehearsed action, you know, when you're doing something that's somewhat unrehearsed, then definitely the spider sense as you call it, what's happening, you know, like, OK, so I'm on this, but I think that might be interesting over there. So I'm going to wait till this happens and I'm going to swing over. I'm going to get that. But I think that in general there are lots of skills that transfer over but you know you you have help a lot of help in our world. You know as an A camera operator you have Dolly grips that say hey look over there to your right guess what's happening you know. Speaker 2 So you have a lot of help like that when you're which you which you didn't really enjoy as a as a one man band. We talked about this before. You're pretty much, you pretty much solely work as an A camera operator. Speaker 1 Yes, pretty much, yeah. Speaker 2 Now what? What do you think is the difference between a good a camera operator and a great camera A great a camera operator? Speaker 1 Well, it's a different question. It's it's it's a difficult question to ask because you really the your role is defined by what the director and the DP expect of you. So some directors want to be able to talk to the operator themselves. They want to be able to talk about their idea for coverage and staging directly with the operator. Some work through the DP and that's the way the DP likes it. So. So the answer is complicated because it depends on the personalities involved, whether you've worked with them before and what their expectations are of you. I think a great camera operator sees. Outside of the frame sees the area around the frame understands coverage, understands cutting, understands organizing the crew and involving people so they feel happy and organized so that you know you you have their back, you support your team and that they support you. So I think you know to define what makes a great camera operator are and you know this David. It's so it's so many different skills. Some of which are obvious, like you need to be a good camera operator, you need to have some sense of framing, you need to have some sense of how to move the camera, when to move the camera, how to work with the Dolly grip to make all that happen seamlessly. All that stuff is important. And then there are other elements that go in there too, like you know, management skills and and and diplomacy and working with other camera operators and and making sure that everyone feels like they're involved. But they're still all pointing in the same direction where we all have our our eye on the on the ball for what the what the end result has to be. So, so it's it's. It's a, it's a different. Conjunct different confluence of many, many different skills, But it isn't always obvious what they are at the time. And they're different on every movie, which is actually the best thing and the worst thing about our job. Because on some movies you're like on all the time. You know, you're basically doing, you know, a lot of the blocking and working with the creative people to figure out how to cover the scene. And then you know, you come home every night and you're just exhausted because your brain hasn't stopped working for 15 hours and then. Other movies, you know, you're you're just expected to be there doing the camera operating and not really involved in shot construction and anything like that and and that's easy for a while and then it becomes like Oh well you know be nice to be more involved in this so, so it's different on every movie and I think the the answer I hope I'm giving you a good one is that. It's hard to predict what that is, you know, and what they're going to want from you. Speaker 2 But I know that's that's perfectly fair and a great answer actually, because I, I I asked, I always asked the question and really there is no answer. Some people have different ideas and whatever, but I don't think there's any bad answer for it. But but you you brought up something that's interesting to me, which is there are those shows which I personally prefer where I'm heavily involved. I'm like a big cog in the machine and and the director's asking for, you know, input on this and storytelling and working with actors and whatever, I enjoy that. But then there are the jobs where you're just the guy who who frames it up and and does the move and whatever. And as you said, you know, that's cool for a couple weeks maybe, and then you start to get maybe a little antsy about it. How do you do you, do you have a mental game that you play or do you? Do you? How do you? Do you? Do you try to fill that mental energy with something else or you just sort of go, well, I'll get through this, it'll be over and I'll move on. Speaker 1 I think I could answer to that question would just maybe be a story with David Fincher, cause David Fincher is a is a director who has a very strong visual sense as we all know. He's very specific on what he's looking for and the first movie I did with him was the Social Network and and I and I knew that, you know, it was going to be he tends to fire a lot of camera operators and I figured you know I was I was texting my wife from Boston thinking I don't know if I'm going to last because anyway don't plan on anything so but. But I do remember there was a point in the making of The Social Network where, you know, Fincher sets the shot. He's very specific. You know, my role is very well defined. And I remember looking at a a shot somewhere in week two or Week 3 and going, oh man, you know, we could do better than this. And I got up and I took a deep breath and I walked over to Fincher, who was sitting on his chair reading something. And I said, David, can I interrupt you for a second? And he looked up and I said, listen. This shot sucks. What I should do is raise the table on quarter apples. I can raise the camera a little bit. We can raise everything. I could put on a slightly. I'll go to a 40 from a 35 and I'll see right out that window and I'll have all of hard Harvard in the background. And he raised his hand almost like a Pope. He raised his hand to shut me up because I was. Speaker 2 I was going on and on about what I was making your case. Speaker 1 Yeah, and he goes and and and, and later on I began to understand that that's his way of saying shut up. Go do it. Speaker 2 You've made your case. Speaker 1 You made the case? Speaker 2 Yeah, you're wasting my time. Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh, asked and answered. That was the thing he kept telling me. So he'd raise his hand, asked and answered go do it and I would do it. And then from that moment on, it was a different kind of relationship. Because then he kind of understood that I'm on his team and I'm only going to say something when I know it could be better. When it's a Gray area where it's either or, I let him do his thing because he's David Fincher for God sakes. But when there's a a point like that where you're setting up a shot and you realize this could be better by doing this, this and this, I pitch it to him. So. So I think your question is. What was your question? Speaker 2 I don't remember. I'm just fascinated by this, David. Finch, but I I think your question is when do you fill that, How do you fill that gap when it is sort of a book? Speaker 1 So like I guess it's the answer to the question is incrementally right. Like I didn't walk on set going, hey guys, I got a different idea here. I think we should do this. That would be wrong pretty much with any director. So. So with with Fincher, I just kind of like did my thing and then and then there was an opportunity to contribute, I pitched, he said. Go do it. And then from that moment I was able to from time to time add something out of, you know, some a flourish or maybe a movement that he was unexpected, you know, to do something within the shot. But but generally with Fincher, I I like to say my experience with him is that it's probably the hardest work of my career, probably the toughest movies I've ever done. But it's the most rewarding. And I when I finished Social Network, I I said to my wife, OK, I would did that one. The movie is great. I never want to do another one with that guy. I'm done. And not because not because there was any meanness or any. It's just such a high level. The bar is so high that that it's you're expected to be so precise. He would give me instructions like when Dave Comedy stands up, I want you to boom up and split the exit sign with your right frame line. So you're you're constantly in the firing line almost totally. And if I, if I did the boom up and and pan over and I and the exit line behind you was not on the frame lines, you would cut, you would cut and he would say Peter, that's not your frame. So that kind, that level of precision is is exhausting because you're on it all the time. However, as a viewer I love the way he shoots his movies because the difference. Here's the difference. The difference is the camera never moves unless it's motivated, unless there's a reason for it. You never have the camera moving around it in the middle of a shot because the actors not moving around or adjusting themselves the the the camera frame remains static. Never moving actors move within the frame. However, when you do make a move, it's deliberate and it's there for a reason. Speaker 2 Well, and it's it's it's moving because it's telling the story, not because it's accepting something or fixing something or something like that. That that's one of the things for for younger operators. When I talk to younger operators, and I myself was there and I, you know, I'll ask you whether you were there, you know, when you're first starting out. It's it's you're not quite sure what a good frame is maybe or or you're not sure what a not that there's a perfect frame but you're constantly questioning yourself. So there's that thing of I don't know, maybe I should bring it over a little bit or whatever. But then you you, you, you eventually learn to trust your instincts I think. And it's one of the things that. A buddy of mine, Jeff, always says you know sliders don't have to slide. Speaker 1 It's like no, you have a slider on it should be for a reason and and whatever, but it doesn't mean that you can just 'cause you have a fluid head on or a gear head on. It doesn't mean you have to adjust. Speaker 2 It it's exactly right. And if it's not telling the story then it's the wrong thing to do. But but yeah it's that it's interesting that you say that because I I could see how it's like even though he. Even though he's not doing it to test you constantly, he's constantly testing you. So you're even though you're an established operator, you've been around for a long time. I mean, I think it's safe to say most shows don't ask for that level of exactity. Speaker 1 No, no. But the thing that's different with Fincher, I remember when we started Gone Girl, which is the film he did after Social Network, and he invited me back for some reason. And and I remember in the first week or something, I was just sitting there on the Dolly and David was beside me and I said, hey, I want to ask you something. How much of Social Network did you reframe? Because because because what he does on all his movies is he reduces the size of the capture area, leaving a lot of look around on the sensor that you're not using. And he does that for several reasons. But one is to be able to recompose slightly. And also he does it because he wants to have the ability to maybe go a few degrees wider or tighter or whatever. So so he wants to have flexibility in post. So I asked the question and he looks at me straight up and he goes all of it and he walked away and and I at first I thought should I be should I be wounded, should I be like you know how do I take that and and and what I what he meant though is he's probably making literally micro adjustments in the framing. That nobody but him would ever, No one would ever know. And in fact, when I saw the movie, I I can't. I. Was going to say that I was going to ask you there was nothing in there. Yeah, there was. Oh, I didn't frame it like that. There was never that moment. So he makes those adjustments. But the thing about Fincher is, because he leaves himself a lot of look around, you're operating at with a safety net. In other words, if my frame's locked off on you and all of a sudden you lean aggressively over to the right, if I pan to accommodate space, I basically screw him up because now he cannot reposition that in post because I have a move in there. So what you do, and this is what I tell the other operators when they show up on on a Fincher set, is you hold your balls really tight. You realize that you're miss framing that that that the frame lines are maybe touching your shoulder and and you realize you're miss framing, but you have to hold the frame as hard as it is because he is going to fix it after. Speaker 2 So essentially, it doesn't move unless he's told you that it moves. Speaker 1 The camera only moves if it's deliberate. Yeah, it doesn't move to accommodate and doesn't. Speaker 2 Move to accommodate. Speaker 1 So if Fincher says cut in the middle of a performance, all the actors look down. Why? Because they want to know if they're off their mark. Speaker 2 Like who? Who dropped the ball? Speaker 1 Yeah, because I can't accommodate my frame. Is my frame. So if if they're off the mark, then we're going to go again. And if it's me and Ben Affleck looks down to see if he's on his Margo, Ben, Ben, It's not that. It's me. Speaker 2 I I I'm Spartacus. Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm Spartacus. So and and but the look it gives his movies. If you turn the sound off and watch any of Fincher movies, you'll understand what I'm talking about. That that the camera is extremely extremely sedentary. It's almost like a witness. The frames are perfectly composed, and yet when there's a move, there's a reason for the move. Yeah, there's. Speaker 2 No question about it which is I mean you have to respect that and it and it it it like you said, it's designed and when you watch it, you understand why it was designed that way and it has the feeling of something that was designed. Speaker 1 I mean that's his thing that's, you know, the the antithesis would be like, you know, Clint Eastwood who it's all shot off the Steadicam and he doesn't care. He wants me to follow the puck and adjusting, Sir, that's a Canadian expression. Follow the puck. You're going to hear that. Hockey. Yeah. So he wants me to to to recompose on the go and to, you know, that's that's the way he makes his movies. So it isn't really about that. So, you know, that's the wonderful thing about being an operator is that you're working with people who have different sensibilities about composition, about movement, about lighting. You know, sometimes it comes from the director, sometimes it comes from the DP, sometimes it's just a function of the two of them, Sometimes it comes from me. But it initially it becomes this, this kind of nucleus of ideas and creativity, and it's different on every movie. And that's the greatest thing about it. Movies last for me four months or so. I do about two and a half a year, and everyone's different. Every single movie is a different thing. Speaker 2 Is there is there a movie that you've done that you're most proud of. Speaker 1 You know I've been some question before and I've never really I've never really been able to answer it because I always think well I'm kind of proud about that one and you know Chicago won all these Oscars and I guess I'm proud of Chicago and and but I as a camera operator it's my work with Fincher. I I think that for for me will always be a high bar in terms of, you know what, what I feel my own style because I love that style. I love the the camera, not fishing around, not swimming. I love the fact that the frames are so well considered. There's a reason for everything, Yeah, There's a reason for everything. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best movie ever made, or maybe the one I'm most proud of. I don't know. Sometimes. Sometimes it's the conditions that you work under that make you proud of of what them. But those are, again, we're seeing outside the frame. The audience doesn't see the pain. Speaker 2 Exactly. So well, hopefully. And how many movies have you done with them? Speaker 1 2. Speaker 2 2. And on the second one, did it get less exhausting? Speaker 1 And it was less stressful for me because. Because I understood. I understood. Yeah, yeah, it was less stressful for me and and I understood him, you know, more fully. And of course, you know, I had Jeff Kron with there who has been a friend to me and I've been his operator for so many years that that I knew I always had someone there to back me up if something went down. But I never really needed it. I mean, yeah, the second movie was easier for me, as easy as a Fincher movie could ever get because, you know, Gone Girl I think was 115 shooting days. Oh my gosh. We went from September to January, and the last four weeks were six day weeks. Wow. So you can understand that a lot of work. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work, yeah. Yeah. We shot a lot of takes of pretty much everything, yeah. Speaker 2 Talk to me about when you have AB camera operator, what do you what do you expect from your B camera operator? What do you tell your B camera? How involved are you with your B camera operator? Speaker 1 Again, that's A that's different on every movie and what's expected. But the B camera operator, for me it's it's always great if in many ways what people don't get about the B camera position on a movie is it's in many ways more political than my position. Because you need to as an operator, you need to be present, you need to be there, you need to see the blocking, you need to understand opportunities, see where the A camera's going, notice what lens they're on, understand editing a little bit. So, you know, thinking, OK, what can I get that will integrate well with what Peter's getting, But however, you can't be so there so present that maybe the director looks over and goes, oh, there's there's the B camera operator there, Let let's make sure you get something. And now all of a sudden the DP is like going, wait, wait, woah woah woah. I haven't even thought about how I'm going to light it yet. You know, like, so so you can't be too present, but you can't not be there. You can suggest things, but how you suggest things is also very political. Do you put them to the DP? The DP may react like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want to consider AB camera at all. Do you pitch them to the operator? Well, that might be a good idea. If the operator has a very good relationship with the creative people on the movie, then then maybe that's a good way to go. Do you pitch them to the director? Maybe. May ask? Maybe no. So a good. A good the camera operator understands the political ramifications of everything that they do on set. Of course, in addition to that, they have to understand, like we said, editing about what makes a good cut, what shot works well with the shot that we're doing. They have to have a good understanding of lighting and what the DP is trying to do. So if they're they, they won't even pitch a shot that's lit flatly if that's something that the DP is clearly not leaning towards. So, so there's a lot of skills that make up that job and it's too easy to think, oh, it's kind of a junior position and anyone can kind of do it. Not really you you really it. It is kind of a learning job, that's true. You can watch and learn a lot as AB camera operator, but you have to have a certain amount of experience and set skills to pull it off. Speaker 2 It's funny because I always thought that that every B camera operator could potentially be an A camera operator, but I know many A camera operators who probably couldn't be B camera operators anymore. Do you know? Speaker 1 Yeah, maybe I don't. Speaker 2 Know if they could, they could pull back. Speaker 1 Pull back as much as is necessary like you said, because it's it's it's like think it depends on the individual it. Speaker 2 Depends on the individual, but there's some people I know who's just like no, you wouldn't be able to. Speaker 1 You wouldn't be able to. I did a movie called Gangster Squad where, you know, we're crewing up. Dion BB was the cinematographer and we were crewing up for this movie and and I was having trouble finding AB camera operator who I thought Dion would trust and you know would fit well with everything. And and I and I got out of the blue. I thought Steve Campanelli his movie just got shut down. I wonder and I've known Steve we're both from Montreal. I've known Steve my whole career and I called him up and I go, Steve, I know this is a reach but would you think you would want to be the B camera operator on on this movie. He goes, oh shit yeah, let's do it. And I had a great time and and Steve, you know whether his ego was bruised or not, he fit right in and. Speaker 2 Knowing him, it probably was not. He's just, he's just a great guy. Speaker 1 And a more recent example would be, I did a movie about a year ago or a year and a half ago called Being the Ricardos and and once again, you know Jeff Cronowith was the DP and we talked about B Camera and Aaron Sorkin was the director and we knew that Aaron wasn't really kind of a visual oriented director. He's more. With them on West Wing, I know him well, exactly so smart guy. But I have great Aaron Soren stories that are not that are not that are okay to tell. But but again, we we, we we just inquired and Wukash Yellen was happened to be available and we had actually done a movie years ago. My first movie with Peyton Reed actually whatever 15 years ago. But I have not crossed paths with Wukash because he's on his own path trajectory and a camera operator and I am too. So. So Wukash came up and it became evident that the way we shot that movie was going to be completely different, the way I've shot every movie ever that I've ever done. Because Wukash was such a great creative input. He was so well, you know, the man, right? I mean, he's so well loved and all of a sudden, you know, and we would have very little time to block things out. So who, Cash And I would sit shoulder to shoulder during a blocking rehearsal for the director, Whisper and whisper and go. I think Jeff is putting lights over there. So if I get her coming in the door, you could be waiting here and maybe pick up her close up, let her step into your frame. And he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe I'll do a little pushing. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. You do that too. OK. And we would work this all out, you know? And then by the time, you know, Aaron goes, OK, guys, how long for you? And Jeff goes, I need about, I need about an hour. OK. And then Jeff turns to us and he goes, what are you guys going to do? And I go, here's the proposal. Yeah. You're gonna where are you putting your lights And we put OK, so I'm doing. I'm thinking about doing it. So we did so many of those shots as handoffs. Speaker 2 That's that's great. Speaker 1 And I I think what you know, he added so much to the movie and that was really different because Ukash is just who he is, you know, he's full of creative energy and and and really had a good relationship with the cast and so that's fantastic. So that's fantastic. Every movie's different, but that one, that one definitely had. Speaker 2 I'll tell you, I remember on West Wing we had one scene and I I I can. Sort of see the scene, but I can't really. But I remember asking Aaron afterwards because I was really impressed with it. Oh, you know what? It was the the president was having a his his weekly physical or monthly physical or whatever he's supposed to get. And the the doctor had just had a baby and he said to him there are two things you got to teach him because his mother won't and one was some sport thing. And the other one was, he said, and you got to teach him how to whistle because his mother will never teach him how to whistle. And I remember going up to Aaron and going, that's such a great line. Like, where does that come from? He goes, I don't know, I just hear this stuff. And I said out of curiosity, when you're writing this, do you see? These scenes. And he goes, no, I can't see any of it now. I agree this was years ago. It may have changed. Speaker 1 No, it hasn't. Speaker 2 But I and I'm thinking like, well, you know it's in the you know it's in the Oval Office. I mean, but he said, no, I can't see a stitch of it but I can hear every piece of it. I was like wow, that's really amazing. Yeah. But he's. Speaker 1 I mean he's a great storyteller but he needs there parts of him that need and he's actually there isn't such a big ego there that he feels like he needs to be the smartest guy in the room. Like if Jeff or myself come up with a different way of shooting it, I I I like telling this story on on on on being the Ricardo's. There was a scene where Nicole Kidman's walking down the corridor and I needed to get her from a certain part in the corridor to the front door of her dressing room. And there's dialogue there. And we did a rehearsal and there wasn't enough dialogue to last the length of the walk. And it had to be that length. So I was kind of like looking like I am now, like my browser furrowed. And I'm trying to think like, how do I do this? Like if we don't see where she enters frame, then maybe I can shorten the whole thing. And and Aaron comes up to me and goes, Peter, what's wrong? And I didn't realize that I was showing my thoughts on my face. And I thought, Oh, well, Sir, actually, can I be honest? Of course. Well, I I don't really. Nicole stopped her dialogue before I got her to the entrance of the of the dressing room. And we need to have her stop here so that it we can cut inside and meet. He she meets Javier Bardem there and they walk in and he he looks at me and goes, what are you saying? And I went and I kind of stopped and I'm on my mouth kind of hung open. He goes, are you saying we need more dialogue? And at this point Peter shuts the up because I'm thinking like, holy shit. Speaker 2 Are you saying somewhere? Speaker 1 I didn't think I was going, oh, and he goes, that's not a problem. And I kid you not. Here's what happened. He had his laptop, like the one you have here, and he drops to the carpet in front of me. He drops right down to the ground, opens up his laptops, and he opens it up and he finds where he is. And then he looks at me, He goes, how much? And I go how much what? How much time do you need? I need. I need 8 seconds. OK. He starts typing. Everyone's looking at me and I'm like, sweat is starting to break because I'm thinking, I've never done this in my life. I've never asked a director to write more dialogue to accommodate a shot. And he goes, great, great. OK, 9 seconds. Here we go. Hey, Nicole. And he brings over Nicole. They look at the computer. She looks at the new dialogue. We shot. The first take, it was perfect, but that's that's how Aaron works. He's. Speaker 2 Mine is there's there's different connections that happen in there that most people don't have. But I I, I thought you were going, we were going to go with Peter wants you to say these new lines. Speaker 1 I mean, you know, thank God he didn't do that. He didn't do that. But he but the director sitting cross legged on the floor in front of the whole crew. Doesn't surprise me with him and he's taping away going. Speaker 2 And especially the thing that I remember specifically, like when he's writing. He's he's in a different place. He's not even in the room anymore. It's like it's a it's yeah he has there's a savant thing there. Speaker 1 There's no question and that's why his the only other shows. Without using too much of your podcast time, the only other story I would say about Aaron is that there was a few shots in the movie where we ran single camera and sometimes I would do them and sometimes who Cash would do them and but oh by the way a week into that movie I went to the director. Sorry, I went to Stewart the producer and I said Stuart, I want to change my screen credit on this movie. I've never done this in my career. I don't want to be a camera operator. I just want to be listed with Wukash as camera operator and and he said did you approve this with Jeff And I go I'm going to but I want that. Can you make that? Can you make sure? And then and then in post production, I actually called him to make sure he didn't. Speaker 2 Get as you can see that. Getting a loss. Speaker 1 Yeah, and it didn't. He said no, And then that's how the movie showed, because Wukash was not AB camera operator on. Speaker 2 That I know and everybody. It's funny because people, there are some movies where. Speaker 1 There's completely an A and AB camera operator, and then there's some movies where there are two that wasn't operators. That wasn't, that's great. So I walked over to, I had nothing to do. Wukash was operating 1 camera setup and I walked over to the director's video village just to watch the shot. You know I had my, you know just stood there behind the chair and action and they start performing and Aaron is looking. He's got the he's got his headphones on and he's staring down at this at his computer. He's looking at the script. He's not watching what happens. And and then he always says cut great. And I said Aaron, Aaron, what I said you weren't you weren't watching. Oh Oh no. But I yeah. But I watch sometimes and I look at the script supervisor and I go, does he watch and and and she goes, and she smiled kind of guilty and she goes, I think he watches sometimes and then Aaron starts, well, Peter, what's the problem? I mean, if there's a problem, you would say something to me. Speaker 2 Right. Speaker 1 At the end of the day, and I go, well, that's correct. And of course, Sir, I would say something to you, but maybe there's subtleties in the performance that I'm not seeing. Oh, I completely trust you guys. I couldn't. I couldn't make my point. It's just the way he is. So he he. Speaker 2 Basically something beautiful about that. Speaker 1 He obviously felt comfortable enough with you that it's like, I know, but we're not making radio. Speaker 2 No, I know. I understand that. I understand that. Speaker 1 I want the directors input because the directors input steers the ship, it controls the direction, it controls the emotion of the of the entire. So a a director may say, you know what, I think we should be tighter on that moment. Or, you know, if you're an experienced camera operator, that you need the input visually of the director because they're the only one that sees the whole thing of course, as an entity. Speaker 2 But but like you said at the beginning, every show is different, right. So my guess is you probably took that conversation and went back on the camera and went, OK, I got to start thinking about this a little differently because the thing that maybe normally I wouldn't bring up because they're watching. Yeah I I may now have to bring up that happens and and and I you you've been in this long enough to know to to to have done this as well. It's one of the things that I've noticed that I fight a lot with digital because with film I would bring up almost everything because it was like, well transmission might have gone out maybe they didn't see it. In other words I didn't, I didn't count on them seeing exactly what I see. And now there are times where I'll go, well they saw that and then and then I'll go I just better my, you guys saw that right then. No we didn't see that. Speaker 1 We got to go, OK, so but but do you fight that sometimes of knowing that they've got this 39 inch monitor or whatever it is where you know what I have to say it, it doesn't change the way I think about my responsibility. I know you and I have had this conversation before and other venues because I have a very, very strong feeling that the the camera operators, the the the gatekeeper, you're the last, you're the point of no return. By the time it happens, it's if you see it, it's already too late and it's and it can't be fixed because it's been recorded and people will say as you pointed out, well they're all in front of 30 inch monitors and you know, everyone can see that. But The thing is, they're all looking at different things. Or their phone Every. Oh, yes, let's assume for a moment they're looking. But the props guy is going to be looking at the, you know, the props, The director maybe be watching performances and might be into the movie and looking at Nicole Kidman going, she's awesome, which she is awesome. So there everyone's looking for our Jeff. Maybe the cinematographer might be concerned about something in the background. Maybe he's working with his gaffer to change something on a second take. You never know what's happening there. The only person, the only person who is literally in charge of the whole frame in a general way, is the camera operator. So I don't assume for a second that someone noticed this thing or this thing. I always reported. Always. Always. Because you just never. Speaker 2 Know I'm the same way, but but like I said, sometimes I especially at the end of a long day or whatever, I find myself having a fight, being lazy and going. They must have seen that night and I walk back and just double check or what? Speaker 1 Yeah, I know it's tough. Speaker 2 It's tough. It's tough because you do, you do also get that mental burnout by the end of like, you know, you're firing a little slower and and and whatever. Speaker 1 And also there's a danger there of if you go to the director too often with those kinds of things, they're going to, oh, don't worry, it's just Peter talking about something in the background, you know? So sometimes your concern needs to be steered toward maybe another department or maybe the DP or something, because you know the director isn't really going to process all these. Speaker 2 100 percent, 100%. Speaker 1 Are there ever, any times when you're on these movies where you're looking through the IPS and you're just like, I can't believe I get to watch this all the time. All the time, really. There are moments, there are moments in my career where I've just, like, I've been on the eyepiece and I just, I can't believe I'm witness to this. And I don't know. I mean, like, I hope you're not going to ask for examples, but but there are, there are times where I'm transported and I'm no longer operating, which is not a good thing. I should always be conscious of what I'm doing and and and not seeing the performance because I'm thinking of a lot of other things. My responsibility is bigger than what the performance is. But but yet there are times when I'm just like looking through and I'm watching the movie and I'm lost in the movie, you know? Speaker 2 It's the look to me that always means it's working. Speaker 1 It's. Completely, because either if their performance isn't doing it, or if something else in the background or some extra or my operating isn't doing it, but it doesn't always mean it's going to be a great move. Speaker 2 No it doesn't. It doesn't. Speaker 1 It means that that performance at that moment, at that time, is stunning. And and and and life changing because you're seeing someone give such an amazing, amazing performance. But it doesn't necessarily it. Speaker 2 Just means it has the potential to be a good movie. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. It's going to be a good scene in that, in that movie. Speaker 2 So, so tell me about working with with. Tell me working with a Dolly group who's not your normal Dolly group. Because like, we all have the people that we work with all the time, and that's a relationship. But what? What happens when you show up and it's a totally new person? Do you? Do you? Do some testing out to figure out what they know, how they know, whatever. Do you how do you deal with them? How do you deal with them if they aren't quite up to what you want? Speaker 1 Well, I don't think you can do any testing out because it's not like there's gonna be a Dolly Grip training day or something. Speaker 2 No, I meant, I meant more of like figuring out where their level of expertise is, how to find out what that is so you know what to expect from them, I guess is the point. Speaker 1 Yeah, I think I, it's a good question. I think that there's a feeling out process with a new Dolly grip where they're beginning to understand how I work and I'm beginning to understand what their strong points are and their weak points are. I will. Usually I will. I mean it's it's again, it's a political thing too, because generally the first thing that happens when I get a call to do a movie, literally I put the phone down when I decide to do a movie and say yes, before we've even cut the deal. The next phone call I make is going to be to probably Brad Ray or or one of those Dolly grips I work with. It'll probably be to the key grip. So, and I'll say, hey, look, it's Peter Rosenfeld. I'm going to be your camera operator. I'm really happy to be working with you. I'm really looking forward to this movie. It's a great script. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. And then say, hey, I want to talk about Dolly Grip, because sometimes what happens is that key Grip may may think, Oh well, this is a perfect movement, time to move my guy up and give him a chance at the a camera. And that for me. When they say that, there's usually a yellow alert light going off and I'm thinking, well, if you're going to move him up to a camera, you're going to do it on something other than this movie. You know, like I'm happy to have him there on B camera. But so. So there's this political thing that needs to happen where you and the key grip need to come to. You know if if if none of my people are available and if I'm not comfortable what he's pitching and there's nothing else and and you're now shooting somewhere that doesn't that they can't bring someone in or whatever the case So directly to answer your question there's a period of a couple of days where I'm kind of getting a sense of it and usually I get a sense of it really fast whether they're going to be a a journeyman or whether they're going to be a collaborator. You know, because Brad Ray and Johnny Mag, those guys are collaborators. Like when I watch a full on blocking but blocking rehearsal with the cast, I'm Brad and I are standing shoulder to shoulder and I often go Brad. How are we going to do this? Well, he says what about putting a remote hidden on the Dolly? Then you don't have to worry about that part. OK, good. I can't keep watching because you know he's done so many movies and why not draw upon that experience? And I don't always go with his suggestions, but I would have to say 90% of the time we're on the same page, 90 more than that. So if you're working with a Dolly group who's not a collaborator like that, or who isn't really at that point, maybe they will be, but they're not there yet, then they're what I call it. I don't know if I'm using the term correctly, but they're kind of a journeyman where they have all the skills, they know what to do, they know how to level track, they know how to you know everything. All the mechanical skills are there, but they haven't gotten to that Zen level of Dolly grippery. And storytelling and storytelling. That's a gall about storytelling. So, So I think that it's a it's a warming up process. I may sometimes will simplify shots or maybe convince the director I said, well, you're going to put a cut in there right when this guy comes in the door. Yeah, well, let's let's let's cut there because I think we should say, you know, I I wouldn't try and do too much unless it's a request, but I wouldn't try and pack too much into a dance floor move. Keep it simple as best I can. Honestly, to be truthful, there are times when I put the steady Cam on for a shot that maybe I should have really been doing on a Dolly. But I'm confident in my own skills and I thought, I can't take a risk of this going bad. You know, I'm just going to do it on a steady Cam. I see you nodding. So, you. Speaker 2 Didn't know too. Speaker 1 So, so you know, there are times I don't like sliders, but there are times I'll go on a slider because I just can't really, you know, trust that it's going to happen when I when I want it to happen and. Speaker 2 Yeah, well there's that weird thing that that sometimes you are stuck in that position where it's not the person you want and and this person has maxed out. Or or in this period of time, they're not going to get to where you need them to be. So then then you start backwards engineering. Speaker 1 How do we get exactly what I need, but but not throw someone under the bus or ask someone to do more than they can or or whatever and be political about it and be nice about it? Which is a big part of it, right? That's a huge. Speaker 2 Part of it and and and there's also I've I've been in I think one situation before where it's been I couldn't have the person that I wanted and they wanted to move someone up and I talked to him and I I mistakenly felt that they were ready. And then it was sort of like, look, I also don't want to you to be destroyed by this. Like you're not quite there and you probably will be. And I think since then actually he is. But there's protection there, right? You don't want to, you know, people can only be as good as they can be. What what about, what about crane shots? So, So what it's interesting that you were saying, you'll ask, you'll ask him what, what does he think? Because one of the things that I tend to do is in my mind, I'll go OK, like specifically with crane shots, but Dolly shots also. I'll sort of think in my mind, okay. So I think the base should be over there and my controls will be over here and we'll swing from here to here. But then I'll, I'll talk to my dollar group and go, hey, this is where the camera, what the camera has to do. What do you think we should do just to see? Because if we're on the same page, I know we're going down the right Rd., but maybe they've got I haven't thought of something. Speaker 1 I do the exact same thing. I run it through the Dolly grip. You know if it's Brad then I'll run it through him and I'll say it feels like or I'll just say where do you think the base should because we need to be there and then we need to be there And he goes, well we can do this on a pickle and then we can over here and we can put it, you know they'll he'll he'll already be thinking of. Speaker 2 This and nine times out of 10 you're both on the same page. Speaker 1 Nine times that 10 we're both on the same page. And the and the few times where we're not on the same page. I'm probably going to go with his thoughts because Brad's done so many movies and he's such a good Dolly grip and he understands and he's probably more right than I am. So and there isn't always one right way to do it. You know as you know you can you can set it up sometimes in different configurations but and part of the things you know for us are you know was swinging and backpack compensating and there are other options that are available to us that maybe don't involve that sure. So I think that if if it's a situation where I don't really, um, again, I'm not working with a regular Dolly group who I know, and it's someone who's just kind of like learning the thing I may be a little more specific about. No, no, no, no. The base needs to go here because you're going to do this and then all of a sudden we're going to be stuck. So you can't put the base there. May be easier to put the base there and you're going to have to build and level the steps over here. And I'm sorry, but but I'm sorry, but that's where the crane needs to be. So I I will do that sometimes. But again, it depends on what you just said, you know, the relationship you have with the dollar group and how much trust there is there. And you know, I know that the guys I work with regularly, they're not going to. They're not. We're not know. Speaker 2 There's a level of respect there. There's no question about that. Yeah. And and the other thing that I'll find is sometimes I'll put in there and I'll go look. Everything you're saying is right. But I have a feeling that once we start this shot, we're going to end up tacking that on or having to do this. And I want to be ready for that because I can just see where this is going. Speaker 1 That's true that that that's another thing from your earlier question about what makes a good camera operator is you're thinking one shot ahead, sometimes two shots ahead. I will always ask the AD at least 15 times a day. What's after this? What? What are we doing after this? Oh, we're going to do this one here. And what is that? Oh, he's going to come in and be OK, Good. And now I have information that I can spread to my crew to help. OK, you know what? Listen, Build the steady Cam with the 27 mil on because that's what we're going to rehearse with. And that's the next shot. So we better get that going now or let them know outside the crane works for this shot. So just trying to stay one shot ahead of everything helps the AD to keep the day going to make sure and it helps your department knowing that, ah okay, great, let's start getting that stuff off. You're going to move your carts in two shots, so start thinking about where they're going exactly. We're going to turn around over here and all that's going to be in. Speaker 2 Shot Talk to me how, how, how do you work with the idea? What's your what's your what? Speaker 1 What's your such a critical position on a on a film set. The AD can make it a pleasure or or can make it miserable. I know you, you've done so many projects and you know exactly what I'm talking about. In both places, you know, the the most important thing for me with an AD is that they're they're kind. They don't blame people. They don't, they don't say, well, you know, we're going again because props didn't bring in the right thing and just that's not important. We're just going again, you know? So it's I I think it's a question of collaboration and respect for the crew that the AD has a lot of pressure, they're under a lot of a lot of different constraints that we may not even be aware of. Actors have to leave catch flat, whatever all that stuff that's in their world. So I have respect for them because what they're doing is really tough. I always said it's the toughest job on the on the with the exception of possibly a focus pulling ad is the job you don't want. Because if a film goes really, really well, no one says afterwards, oh, that job was so well, a deed. That was a great adid film, but if it's a disaster and goes over budget in the studio, the 1st place they're going to look is how did this go on set? Did the ad make the best use they can of their of their time? So to to what I look for in AD is collaboration, is kindness, is the ability to maybe consider other needs other than their own. You know, like if we do this now, then we can wrap all this stuff and I can send those guys home because we don't need the crane for the last three shots. If we just change the plan and do this now, we can then be done with this whole set and then they'll go, oh, right, OK. But maybe it's no good because maybe the an actor is leaving. Whatever. But the the point is that, you know, I work very, very closely, or at least I like to with the AD to help them as best I can. Not just in little ways like what it, what's coming next, but also like tell me about tomorrow, like where do you think we're going to be tomorrow? Well, we're going to start with this shot coming in. And that helps me too because now all of a sudden in the middle of the day I can start briefing my team, Hey, tomorrow, first thing up is going to be Steadicam. It's going to be A2 camera shoot. The other camera will probably be on a Dolly. But so all good stuff, so they all, you know, it can all work a little more smoothly. Speaker 2 And I I think the key to all of that, even with all these different departments is basically. Saying you, you're sort of letting them know, look, I'm thinking about what your problems are as well, even though it's helping you in the long run, but you're you're sort of putting them out there so that when you do have a problem, they can, they can step in and go. Now it's my turn to help you back. Exactly. That's kind of, I mean, it's sort of stacking the deck in a weird way. Speaker 1 I mean, you have an advantage when you're working in series because you're going to have the same AD. For you develop a relationship, good or bad, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas in movies, everything gets mixed up, and and and even even movies with the same AD are going to be different because the director is different and the studio is different. And so even if we may have worked together before, it'll be a different situation again. So what? Speaker 2 What Talk to you've worked with massive actors and and you've I'm sure you've worked with method actors. I'm sure you work with the actors who are telling a joke and then they call action and they turn it on and whatever. What what what? What could you tell younger operators about? Getting actors to trust you. Working with actors who maybe aren't hitting their Marks and you need them to hit their marks. Discussing when to talk to the actors, when not to talk to the any of that. I mean, I know that's a massive 12 hour discussion. Speaker 1 That's a massive question. I think the most important thing is to to be smart about it, Try and get a sense whether they're, when they're in performance, if their method, if you can't really talk to them too much in the middle of takes, in between takes, I should say. But I think that for a, for a lot of actors, they're looking for, they're looking for a reaction. They're looking for someone when, when, when the director says cut, usually the first person they see is the one right behind the camera. And and and that relationship is, is more important than you think because we're really the first viewer. We're the first audience member #1, even though everyone else has seen it. The actor only has eye contact with me. And sometimes just getting off the camera and and smiling and going, you know, maybe a little thumbs up or maybe or like some, you know, like that was great or or whatever or or even just saying really, really good, we're good here. So the actor goes, OK, so he pees good, he's good. So if we're going to go again, I don't know if I can do that again. If we're going to go again, then it'll be the director that's going to want that. So even that's important, knowing that they have confidence that the shots been captured correctly, that nothing is incorrect. I think that the the relationship between a an operator and A and A and a an actor is really important. And it's a relationship that sometimes gets a little bit jambled because of the fact that sometimes now we're on remote heads. Which is another reason why I always try and operate where I can see the set. I never try and be in a place where I can't see the set. Speaker 2 I've never understood that. Also is like there's this new thing where even if you can't see the set, like if you're outside or there are lights, people box you in with these with these flags if you can't see anything. And I'm like, first of all I I I'd rather not be able to see perfectly and see the set then yeah, I I don't. Speaker 1 I take them away. Yeah. I stopped them from happening. They the grips don't do it anymore because if it were outside and there's a really. Speaker 2 If you can't see the monitor, you can't see the monitor. Speaker 1 Yeah, but but I don't want to be closed off. Yeah, I want, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And usually if I'm working with the Dolly Group, who I've worked with a lot, they'll know they know where to put Peter right here in this court. They learn pretty quickly, yeah. But to get to to completely dig into more of what you what you asked me, because there's good stuff in there is how do, how do, how do you tell an actor they've missed their marks? I mean, if you just say you're not on your mark, it can be interpreted as somewhat rude. Again, it depends on the actor and depends on who your relation into the relationship between the operator and the actor. But. Speaker 2 There's also The thing is you want to be very careful to let, to not let them think that this whole scene is about the mark, because it's not, you know, even though they're important. Speaker 1 So that's always usually the the first thing I would do is I would, I would walk over to them. I wouldn't broadcast this across the set. And I would say something like, is there anything I can do to help you with hitting your mark? Oh, I'm not hitting it. No, not really. You're kind of ending U over here, and it really, really works better for us. If if you could be around here. Oh well, what? What can? Well, I can give you a little sausage so you can feel it with your foot a. Speaker 2 Little mini sandbag. Speaker 1 A little mini sandbag, Yes, thank you. Not a sausage, you. Speaker 2 Know you do a sausage. Speaker 1 I don't know. Little mini sandbag, so you can feel it with your foot or or maybe I can move a piece of set dressing there so you can feel it in front of you that I don't that's out of frame and and they'll appreciate the fact that you're handling this one-on-one. They'll appreciate the fact that I want to do something to help them hit their mark. Rather than say, can you please hit your mark? Fincher can say that, sure, but not Peter. For me, it's more delicate. You're working with, you know, big actors and and, you know, usually it's just a question of, hey, you know what, Denzel, when you come in the room, it would really be helpful to me. Oh, you want me here? Yeah, not here, no. Well, can you make it work over here? Let me work on that. And sometimes you do because maybe there's a reason why they want to be at that new position. They feel more comfortable. And at the end of the day, it's really about performance and it's really about, you know, performance capture exactly. So if Denzel wants to be there instead of there, then. Now I go back to the DP and go, you know what? He's going to be 4 feet over to his left. Can we adjust for that? I can on the camera, it's not a problem. I still have a good background. But how are we doing with everything exactly? So sometimes you have to reverse engineer it. If he wants to be there, then let's just move the mark there and. Speaker 2 No, but that's it. That's also a really interesting point is you go up and you start talking to them and you immediately try to read where this is going because. Speaker 1 If it's going to a place where it's like he's clearly going to hit that that position every time, then it's then you might as well bail and stop right there. Speaker 2 Because otherwise you're just building up walls at that point. And there are those actors who it's just like and and some of them will even. Do something differently just because it's something different as opposed to as opposed to that. So you don't want to you don't want to build that up and then so so then what do you do You go back to the DP and you go, look, I I've, I've tried to make this mark work. I just don't think it's going to happen. Speaker 1 And and how do we, how do you want to move forward? That's exactly what I would say. I use those words. I tried to make this mark work. I don't think it's going to happen. I think we should adjust the shot slightly to make it work where he wants to go or she wants to go. Speaker 2 It's it's a game and and then specifically though if you're working with someone who is method and then for anybody who's who's listening, who doesn't know what method is, it's basically they are completely in character. They are not on a set. They are. They are. I can't think of they are the characters in the movie. They are the character in the movie. Speaker 1 The last thing in the world do you want to do is be talking about the, the, the physics of of. Speaker 2 Shooting the mechanics of shooting movie. So, so if something is so specific like you, this person needs to be here because if they're not here, when they turn and point back there, we're not going to see what they're pointing through that window or you know, something so specific. How do you, how do you, how do you speak to them? I'm asking because I'd like to know because I've been in those situations and it's always like, oh, I'm going to try this. I'm going to try that. It's it's a little weird right? Speaker 1 I try and I try and make it seem like it's it's our problem and and we all have to solve it together. You know I can't solve it completely by myself. I need to solve it with your help. Again reading the Room is super important but if it's an actor who seems flexible and and it isn't working out then again you know I'll come off the Dolly. I'll walk over and say I need I I could use your help on this one because you know oh and and here's Peter asking me for help. You know so they again that's what I'm I'm talking about such a a really connection between the operator and the and the and the cast because there needs to be trust. They needs to be like how many times have you seen a performer look at their reflection in the filter on the front of the lens and check something. And when that happens, I noted, because I know they might be insecure about something, like maybe it's her hair, or maybe, you know, maybe it's an actor thinking they might have some some they had to bite the. Broccoli and they just had a doughnut. So they're doing something in the. Now, of course they don't realize that everybody is seeing them do this. So I try and discourage it because all the monitors show them doing this. But I noted because I think, ah something's going on here. He or she is a little concerned about this. So now you watch it for them and then you know if there's something to be done. You can either call for their makeup artist and always, always call for the makeup artist by their name never makeup or say to the ADI need to see makeup wrong. I need to see Carol. You do? Yes, please. Can you ask Carol to come and see me? And now that's a great. And now the makeup artist for the movie star comes to you. Hey. And of course, day one. I would have introduced myself to all those people. Those people are super, super important. More important than you realize. My wife is a makeup artist. I learned all about it. So I will then talk to them and say, hey, you know what? There's a little something going on in her teeth. Just check it out when you have an opportunity or it's a hair thing. I noticed that when she looked down, the hair fell down, covered her eyes and she was shadowed on her eyes. I couldn't see her eyes. Can you help us at all with that? And now, and of course, the actor probably sees this going on, right? But they see how it's handled. It's handled delicately between me and another person. And that person who is the person in charge of touching them will go and then say hey, we need to and then blah. Speaker 2 Blah blah. And the other thing you bring up a really good point is is makeup. Hair and makeup are are so are so incredibly important for so many reasons, but one of the biggest reasons is is they usually have the ear of the actor. Speaker 1 They have the enemy. Speaker 2 And if, if hair and makeup trust you as an opera. Greater than chances are good the actors going to trust you as an operator. But the thing that I hear you saying in all of that to me is it's really when you get to that point, when you've got you're working with someone who's either tough or whose method and you don't want to, you know, mess with their head and in the moment, but you need something. It's all that trust that you've built up to that point where they realize, like, you know what, Peter's not going to ask me this unless he absolutely has to. So whatever I'm going to have to do to break slightly to figure that out. I want to help him because. And you said something that that resonated with me because I I remember once where an actor came up and was looking at the filter to. I think it was actually something to see if there's something in her teeth. Yeah. And. And I immediately went, oh, don't do that. And she goes, no. And I said no, no, look, everybody's looking at you. And so I, I took the onboard monitor and I turned it off and I said here, you can look in this, this looks sort of, you know, this will reflect you. And she goes, oh, thank you. And and immediately she was like, oh, this is someone who's protecting me, you know, because the last thing I wanted. But I mean, I I had my eye up in the eyepiece. And of course, before I knew it, I'm looking at like, you know, this close up of her teeth. Right. But I think that's, that's really what it's all about is like from day one you're sort of going not in a whole 2023 space, but that you know this is a, this is a safe space like where you are here and I've got your back and and hopefully they have yours as well, right. Speaker 1 You know, it's it's hearing that we all have to realize that the actors position is different than anything else on set because we all hide behind our jobs. We all have our own issues in our lives. Okay. I'm having a bit of trouble at home or whatever, or my car is not starting, whatever it is. But the actor bares their soul. They're vulnerable. They're there, and they're all insecure. Different levels of insecurity, some desperately insecure, some only a tiny bit. But they all need reassurance because they're there. They open up their guts, You know, they're revealing themselves to the camera. If you think about it for a second, you know, hey, Dave, come on. I want you to sit down and I'm going to put a camera on you and I want you to think about something terrible in your life and start to cry. So now where are you going to go for that? Where are you going to dig that out. That's really really personal and and and so having respect for that understanding that that that position requires many, many things we will never even come close to understanding and and and and really those are the things that sometimes make the movie fantastic or make the movie lackluster because there isn't that little something that you would expect in a performance. So performance capture, that's what we do. But we also it's there's performance support. You know what I mean? So you have to be there an understanding of what's happening in front of you. So it's, yeah. Again, it's about relationships and it's everything you mentioned, but it's an understanding that they go places we never, ever have to go. Speaker 2 And just throwing in from point of view of like a tip for younger operators, I think that also comes to, I mean, hopefully you're never screaming across the set for whatever, but but when there's a quieter scene, when there's a more important scene, whatever. And you know you you turn to your crew and go, look I don't want any talking here. Everybody's going to be quiet. I mean you should be hopefully anyway but this is this is a really serious scene so let's like you know let's just all be on our best behavior and and not be and and I don't care if it's a technical problem let's take it offset. We don't want to like bring it into this. And I think all of that adds up right to to where they go of these people understand what I'm I'm having to go through here right. And so then then I think when you're doing that big Steadicam shot and at the very end. You just can't make something work and you go, hey, is there anyone chance you could turn this way? Because it'll just, like finish the they'll give it to you because because you were there for them. So yeah, there's so much stuff about that. One of the things I ask all the well I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you one first because we've talked about this. Speaker 1 Tell me about looking through an eyepiece on digital cameras versus looking at them on. Speaker 2 Come on, go, go, Peter. Speaker 1 You know the reason, the reason Dave is asking me this question is because he knows that this is a, this is a thing of mine. It's a, it's a, it's a pet peeve. I have which is. Explain it for people who might not know what we're talking about. In the transition from film to digital. One of the one of the benefits and the trap is that there are very large high definition monitors that we can work off of and these include also the small high definition monitors that are sitting on the camera and it's tempting for many operators to just operate off the monitor and many people do it. And I'm not judging although maybe I am a little bit but I'm but I'm I'm trying to understand that everyone has their own method that everyone can look off. You know if I want to operate off a monitor, I want to operate off a monitor. But I I go through this this thing with with younger operators showing them and explaining the advantages of which there are many of looking through an EVF or the eyepiece and the the there are so many advantages. To list them all would take up another podcast. But the the idea is that when you're looking through the the EVF, what happens is that your image is actually quite large. And I did a a test years ago for my own for my own amusement, where I sat in a theater similar to the one we're sitting in. And I and I and I tried to move my eyeball and scan across the screen and counted how many seconds it took me at a particular rate of travel. And then I do the same thing in the EVF looking through the image on my viewfinder. And I did the same thing. And what I came up with is roughly a 30 or 40 foot screen sitting about halfway back in a cinema that's somewhere, maybe even a little further back, but but that's somewhere around the end. The virtual image size, because of the diopters, because of the magnifier. So now if you think about it for a second, I'm seeing an image where I can look and direct my attention toward, let's say, a Starbucks cup underneath a seat. Because that cup virtually is quite large in my frame. Sure, because my frame is so. Speaker 2 Big. I think it was on the table, actually. Speaker 1 Yeah, I know you heard me tell the story before the Game of Thrones, but. But The thing is, if you're operating off of a monitor, there is no way you're going to see those kinds of details. You're not going to see the reflection in the piece of glass back there, or on the OR on the mirror, or on the the the the frame that's sitting on the mantle. You won't see the reflection of the stand, a picture frame. You won't. You won't catch a detail of maybe you know, hair being out of place because you may not notice it when you're looking at a small monitor, but the things you see are incredible. You also will see reason number one. Reason #2 is again, I've it's focus. So when you look through the eyepiece you can adjust the level of focus enhancement or peaking, and I usually have it on there all the time. Unless the shot is so wide that I don't, I know I don't need it and I'll turn it off. But pardon, you said you're going to ask me what to do in prep. Remind me to talk about this in. Speaker 2 Prep. That's my one of my next questions. Speaker 1 But so I have a button on the side of the camera to turn peeking on and off and I will always have it on if we're on a close up. Why? You could say, well, why, Peter? Because you have a focus puller. They have a great big monitor. They're looking at it. You got everyone else looking at great big monitors. They're looking at it. Here's the reason. If you're going to make a correction for focus, there's a very, very small window after the director calls cut usually cut. Great. After you know they've cut and they like the take, there's a very, very it. It can be as little as 5 seconds where the only voice that should be heard is me going. I'm so sorry guys. I could use another. Speaker 2 One, you got to get that in there quick. Speaker 1 Why, Peter, I could do better. And I always say that. I never ever say it's focus or it's Dolly. I say I can do better. I can do better. I accept responsibility for everything on the camera. That's not perfect. The crew around me appreciates that. Of course, if you're if, if the director says I need to know Peter, what's that was? My question Because then, of course you're not going to lie, You're going to, you know, if you're pressed on it, of course, you have to say, well, when Dave leaned forward on the chair, it took a little while before we got the focus on him. Oh, don't worry, I'm not using that part. I have. Yeah, I have that from the other shot. That's fine. But it's my job to report it. You can't report it if you don't see it. You won't see it on the monitor. So that's reason number one is it makes you a participant in focus. And I've always, always, my whole career made a very strong pitch. That focus is a shared responsibility. It's shared because the Focus Puller needs your help to make sure that they do their job perfectly. And of course you need their help because it's not in focus. The greatest steady camp shot of my career, We're going to have to go again or may even be called back to do it again another day in the schedule because it's out of focus. So it's really the. Speaker 2 Gatekeeper. Speaker 1 At the end of the day, you're the gatekeeper, so focus is really important. The only way you can really be sure is to seeing it through an EDF. Remember that if you're looking at a monitor, you're probably going to have some kind of flag behind you because there's maybe a reflection on the monitor. You may not even really be able to see because if you're shooting outside, there's going to be so much ambient light on that monitor. Whereas when you look through the the, when you put your head against the the eyepiece and you're looking at the image inside the EVF, you're in a perfect environment. You've created that environment. I do that in prep. I set it up to the brightness, the contrast that I want. I have presets, I have Luts that I put on there. Sometimes Luts are color manipulation. I sometimes change the color manipulation from what the DP is doing for the movie because sometimes they want the movie dark and they want you know, but I need to see everything so I can set up my own viewing system for me in order to do my job. So you can't really do that off of monitor, not really possible. Also the another I won't go on and on and on, but I find that if I'm connected with the camera with my eye against the eyepiece, the camera body and my body function as one, we're not disconnected. It's hard to do it in a podcast because you can't see what I'm doing. But if you're if you're operating and you're just moving the Panhandle and just kind of like looking at the monitor as it changes direction, it's going to have a slightly different look and be less precise than if you were actually pressing your eye against the eyepiece and moved your whole body to operate the shot. It looks completely different. Just because of the camera becomes part of your body, essentially it becomes there's more weight to it. All of a sudden there isn't this fishiness, you know, because it isn't just floating on a Panhandle. It's connected to you and and there are times when you need to have your body language and your position. I will often chalk mark my feet on the Dolly or on the ground so that I always end up in the same position for repeated takes. I never want to have my my feet in another position for take 12 than I was for take 7 because so much of it is just learned momentum. It's just, it's just the ability to constantly reproduce the same shot. You want to be in exactly that muscle memory needs to have exactly the same position for your feet. So all those things don't work with a monitor because a monitor doesn't really care where you are, doesn't really care where you're standing. You could be sitting on the Dolly and just have it in front of you and then someone can come and move the monitor and it's like okay. That's fine. I'm watching it right here. I think it's I I truly believe that there's it's a bit of laziness. I understand that it's more comfortable. I understand that you can keep your back straight and you know, but there are ways to get around this by adjusting the Dolly, raising your height, raising the position of your hips, changing where the eyepiece is. Whether you need to move it forward or swing it over to an area where it's more comfortable, there's always a way around it. But I think I I think I may have given you enough, but I can keep going on. It because because I feel. Speaker 2 Stronger the two thing the the thing that I would add to that is I think that when you get your eye to an eyepiece it's almost like you you leave the set and you become part of the story. You, you, you, you enter into a world and it's just. You know, you're doing a close up of an actress giving some amazing performance. You're there. Speaker 1 Do you know you're in a perfect viewing environment? Speaker 2 A very different, different thing. Speaker 1 It's uncomplicated by the bullshit that's happening around the you know, a Brad Ray's changed the page on his book. You notice that someone's walked in the door and they shouldn't have. All those things that are really shouldn't be part of your world. They're not. Speaker 2 Part of storytelling that you you you shut all that out. There's no question about it. The thing that that fascinates me about you know these these new digital because the. Digital eyepieces are essentially just a little small thing that has a a cable to it. It's not a long tube that goes, you know, as a viewing system. For some reason, whenever I do film and when I used to do film, you couldn't adjust the eyepieces very much. That was just a long eyepiece and maybe a medium and a short, and you can just basically turn it up and down. But they always seem to be exactly where I wanted them to be. I could get them perfectly. And there's something about the digital eyepieces that you can move them so many different ways. That it takes me forever to figure out exactly where I wanted to be. And it's like it seems like it should be the opposite. You should just be able to put it right there. But it's it's I don't know what it is. Maybe it's just my body. Speaker 1 But and also, we didn't have a choice. Speaker 2 But that might be that could be it. Speaker 1 Although when I've gotten back on film cameras, I'll just sort of put it up higher and I'll go, Oh yeah, this is great, this is where it should. Speaker 2 Be maybe mentally I just. Maybe it's maybe it's just. Speaker 1 I mean, I've I've changed. I often don't use the bracketry that comes with the camera unless unless I'm handheld where it needs to be really sturdy. But if if I'm if I'm operating conventionally and just using the the viewfinder, I often use a articulating arm or a Noga arm as we call it and I just I I dispense with all the bracketry that comes with the camera and I put a articulating arm, attach the EVF to the to the my arm and now I can move it closer push it further away. I can look down and be higher. Or if the cameras against the wall and I can't physically even be there, 9 times out of 10 an operator go, OK no problem I'll operate off the monitor, not me. I'm going to just swing the the EVF over to my side and operate you know on the on the on the wrong side of the camera, but operate with the with the VF so. Speaker 2 Because we were talking about, but this is something I wanted to ask because you you, you do something a little different but similar in concept to what I've done in the past. You know most of these digital cameras have have lag and and some are worse than others to the point that I've done been on some things where we're doing you know a a stunt or a gunshot or something like that. And I almost have to watch what's happening because in it's there's a lag in the camera. You were telling me something that you do in post specifically to figure out and press prep. Sorry to figure out specifically about lag. Speaker 1 Yeah, I measure, I measure the latency or lag in in the equipment that I'll be using. So the equipment that I'll be using would be the the EVF that that they've given me that comes with the camera, whether it's PAN edition camera or Sony or whatever it is. And also the onboard monitor and also the big monitor that would be sitting on the crane, which I'll get to at the end because that's the one where you can't really work too much with lag because there's so many other things in there that cause latency that that's a whole rat's nest right there. But since most of the movie will be me looking through the eyepiece, that's I start with that and I I I I can explain in this podcast how I do it. But I think probably the better way to do it is to just go to my Instagram and there I post stuff like this on my Instagram and there's actually. Speaker 2 A What's your Instagram handle? Speaker 1 Peter Rosenfeld. Peter Yeah. Peter dot Rosenfeld so and and and on my Instagram, I explain how I do it in prep, which is basically using a time code slate that you take a still photo on and you take. So imagine taking a still photo of a time code slate, but in the photo that you're taking is the slate and the monitor or EVF that is looking at the slate. And then you have both images, both numbers have are in the same frame and you just subtract 1 number from the other and you usually have your hundredths of a second and then I just convert that back to it's A-frame delay. Speaker 2 Yeah, it's it's funny when we started talking about that because I do something very similar. I just take a video and then when you when you have the video, you can scroll and stop at any point. So it's it. You've got a number of still frames essentially. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, usually you can tell And then and then you were telling me that you kind of do the same thing that I do is sometimes you you'll you'll send it back and go. There's too much latency in this. I don't know if you need a different one or or. Yeah, there's something in between. Speaker 1 These days I would say most of the time they've solved the problem with Evfs. Speaker 2 Better. Definitely, yeah. Speaker 1 They're generally about A-frame, A-frame and 1/2, which is fine. So the Sony, Venice, the the Panavision camera, the DXL, all those cameras now have such a tight latency or almost zero lag in the EVF when you go to the onboard monitor, which in spite of my, you know, drolling, rambling on about operating through an EVF, there are going to be times when you have to operate through a monitor. You have no choice, you know, handheld, you know, for shooting from the hip or whatever the case may be. So when you're operating off of the onboard monitor in prep, I will do exactly what I just described. I will measure the latency on the onboard monitor. Sometimes you can turn things off that are enhancing or changing the color science like a LUT. You can. You can turn those things off that can. Maybe sometimes there's a direct pass on some monitors that that bypasses all the electronics, which will shorten the latency. I always check. I always check. My livelihood is depending on that thing. Of course. This is how I feed my family, for God's sake. Speaker 2 You know the thing that I would say because I'm not as technical as you are, what I'll do is I'll just, I'll do, I'll do my little test and then if it's, if it's, if it's too much of A lag, I'll just look at the assistant and go, we got to get a tech in here and figure out why there's a lag like I don't know why. There's like, but someones going to figure this out because it's been better. Speaker 1 Yeah, I find it's easier to measure it and say hey there's a, there's two frames, there's A2 frame lag here. We got to do better than do better than that. So then the first thing we do is we're probably going to measure another one that's maybe sitting on the B camera or and and and then maybe bring a tech in seeing if there's any LUT being processed. That's going up to me or maybe plugging it in in a different spot, a different port where we'll get make it go away or get it better. So you work on that, you work on that in prep. Speaker 2 You just start cutting out what else, what else do you do in prep as far as getting ready for a show both by the way in the prep house and maybe before reading the scripts, getting ready, looking at lookbooks, you know etcetera, etcetera. Speaker 1 Oh that's a big, that's a big question. So in this, in terms of the script, I always say that I I read the script twice. I read the script when I'm either getting the job or just got the job or I'm considering maybe sometimes they don't give you the script if you haven't signed yet. But whatever the case may be, I read it straight up right out-of-the-box in my beginning beginning relationship with the director and the DP and everything. I read the script and now you understand a little bit about what's going on and you know what type of story it is and where you're going. And then you have all those discussions and prep about the look and the kind of, you know, camera language and all this kind of stuff. And then just before filming, usually the day before or two days before I give the latest version of the script because it would have changed in those three weeks or four weeks. So I I I read the most updated version one time and I never read the script again. I'm sorry to have to admit this, but I just don't have time. And there's so many revisions and pages that come through in the course of making a movie. So that's my last chance to understand the entire arc, to understand the story, to see if there's anything that's really different that's maybe. And now maybe on that read would be a really good time to talk to the key grip about OK, that scene where so and so runs up five flights of stairs. What are we doing for that? Well, that's you, Peter. You're going to be chasing him up in city Cam. Good to know. So, so that stuff is that's a good time to address those kinds of questions. And then of course when when you make the movie then every morning you read your sides or the miniaturized version of the pages that you're going to shoot that day. So. So that would be every single day. In terms of technical prep, there's the Steadicam prep, which is a different portion and then there's my prep as an operator. So since this podcast is more about operating, I will just focus on that. So on the actual day of prep, what I would do is I would start with things like, for example, testing the heads, you know, looking at the heads, making sure they're all good. Nine times out of 10 they're fine because the assistance would already done that. The next thing, and probably the biggest, the biggest task left would be the latency. I just described that earlier about I'm going to measure the lag on the eyepiece and on the onboard monitor and eventually work my way to the monitor that they're going to give me to operate on a crane. So I'm going to be looking at that and finding ways to reduce latency to the very, very minimum. I'm going to be looking at the setup of the EVF or the eyepiece on the camera and figuring out my bracketry, where it's going to go, where it's not in the way of assistance equipment, what are the options, coming up with options about where to place it. This kind of stuff should be done in prep and not on the day because sometimes you're going to be able to, you don't have time and you you're just going to be able to turn to the assistant, say, you know, give me the eyepiece on the right side of the camera and they'll know exactly what to do. So we go through all the the bracket setups I would set up on the side of a camera on a digital camera. Usually on the operator side are a couple of smart buttons that generally don't get used. So I would set up those buttons to do several things for me. One we mentioned earlier about having peeking on and off at sometimes even nice to have two buttons, one that puts on peeking at a higher level and one that puts on peeking at a lower level, But that's not always possible. So definitely peeking on a smart button that I can control, that only affects the image going to the eyepiece. It affects nothing else. And then the other button on there, I often put what I call a gate check, a term leftover from the film days, because in the old days when the camera would cut, the assistant would literally check inside the film gate with a lens, with a with a lens light to make sure there's no debris or hair in there. So so I call, they call that checking the gate. So I call it a gate check. So some not always, but sometimes if there's any question about were we rolling, was there, am I sure I didn't notice that we were rolling on that. I could hit that gate check button and see the last couple of seconds of the clip. You can set it up to either see the beginning, which usually would be the slate. But sometimes I'm a bit lost in terms of what take we're on. But I know what the last couple of seconds of the shot were because I just saw it. So I usually set it for like the last two seconds, 3 seconds and you hit that button, you just see playback and I go, OK, that's that we're we're good. So I do a gate check on that. I work out exposure tools. So there are going to be times when I may be left on my own, maybe I'm operating on a on a Condor or something. We don't have a or a Condor which is a big tall crane that you would go up and you know way up in the sky. So you're not going to have any control via Wi-Fi to the digital imaging technician, so. Can't set the stop and can't set the stop. So I need to be aware of what the EVF has for exposure controls and get comfortable. And they're different from manufactured and manufactured. So I got to re familiarize myself with where I I I need to be. It's a backup thing. 90% of the time exposure is going to be controlled by someone else smarter than me, but there are going to be times when I'm going to have to be on my own and need to fix this. Setting up my I use a program called Cadridge. It's kind of like Artemis, but it's basically an iOS or I guess they have it on Android as well, program that you can put on your phone. In my case I use a fairly large iPad and and it allows me to duplicate field of view with all the different lenses that we would be using be using. So if it's a Panavision show, I would put in the Panavision DXL camera. It would say what lenses are you using? I would put in those particular lenses that we're using on this show. Speaker 2 Viewfinder that you use on set viewfinder, the director and the VP. Speaker 1 And you know, again in the in the analog days, we would have what's called a director's Finder, which is basically a pistol grip with a lens mount and you just stick your lens on the the pistol grip and look through optically look through the lens and use that to set up your shot. The problem with that is you're the only one that sees it. And I know from experience that if I hand a director's Finder, which is the optical Finder, to a director, they're going to see something completely different than what I saw. Speaker 2 Also, we're both tall guys. Speaker 1 We're both tall guys. But even if they measure it, even if they measure it creatively, they're looking for different things. And the same thing is true of many DPS if I give them, hey, is this, let's say it's Jeff, hey Jeff, you know, just look through. Is this what you're thinking? And he'll look through and then when we set up the shot he'll go, oh, you see out that window? I go, yeah, that window has been there all the time. He goes. But I didn't see out that window when I looked through the when I looked through. So there's well, I sure did. And I take a frame grab. I take a frame grab. We all agree on what the shot is and goes, oh, this is the shot. You love this, right? Everyone's loving this 27 mil right here at 16 inches off the ground. I hit frame grab. If there's any debate, you can look at my eye. Actually needs now that you're saying that is it needs a recording feature where you you hit it as well and and you and you can hear everybody going, yeah, that's the frame we like so you can play it back to them an audio record. Speaker 2 Actually said listen yeah, but no, I know what you mean. No, but the main the main thing I it always used to crack me up. It's like I'd I'd be, you know, I'd be crouching down or something and I hand it over to the director and. They just wouldn't want to Crouch down so they'd look at it and thinking, well, you're not looking at what I'm I mean, it'd be fine anyway, but but yeah, it it has it, it does help a lot. Speaker 1 This works better. Speaker 2 And it's funny that you because I don't find a lot of people who use Katridge or Kadraj or however it's pronounced because it's French. And I find it so much better than Artemis only because Artemis does so many things. I find him constantly hitting a button and I'm like, I don't know what happened, but Kadraj only does like one thing, simplified. It's simplified. Speaker 1 It's easier to set up in in pre production. Well, that's the thing when when you set up in pre production, you want to double check through the camera that a 35 is a 3550 is a 50I mean it's usually good enough to do that, but sometimes there's a resizing that happens that the DP has or director has requested like we talked about Fincher doing that. So I need to set the program on my cartridge to do exactly the same thing. So there's the 8K and 6K at 4K and all that, all that shit. So you want to make sure it matches up in prep. The other good thing about shooting with that, that system using an iPad or or your phone or whatever, you know, shooting with cartridge or Artemis, is that on a very complicated Steadicam shot, I will run all the second team rehearsals. They're still going to be building the Steadicam. They're not even done lighting. But I've got something that I can start working out with the A DS. And now we look at the playback because it will record video if you want. And I'll say, hey, when I come over here, it would be really cool if someone was walking through that spot right there. OK, note it. Oh, and you know what? The shot ends right here. Now. So can we do something? Let's talk to the art department. Let's make this a little better. So now all of a sudden you've got something that you can use as a tool to involve all the other departments. They know exactly what you're seeing. So you spread the information around. So cadridge setup is number two or three or whatever. Exposure tools we talked about that. I would go through tools available to me on set to get the camera low. So if we have a cartoni or a Lambda, whatever, you know whatever setup we have, I want to see how low we can get. I will probably take a measurement so that way I'll know on the day. If we need to be at 8 inches, I can get that on a Lambda head and get there pretty easily. If we need to be two inches off the ground, well that's a little more difficult. Now that's now it's probably underslung. Maybe I'll use a crane for that. Maybe a remote head. Speaker 2 Or I did a show in New Mexico with a Dolly group named Harlan who was fantastic at Harlan Espera. I think Esper is anyway, is great and it's the only time I've ever seen this and I don't know why I've never seen it any other time. He at the beginning of the show took out his tape measure and on the back of the metal tape measure. He put marks with every single thing of the high and low of what's smart. So you you go, you go, we need to be here. And he'd turn it around and look and go, OK, I can get you there on this, this, this and this. Speaker 1 And it's funny you say that because sitting on my desk at home is a laminated yellow card that would normally be in my you know in my I wear a little pouch and then you pull and on there is Hybrid Dolly that we work with Peewee Dolly work with Fisher. And and how low it goes in regular mode. How low it goes in low mode. How low how high it goes in each mode. It's all there. The numbers are all there And and now I can actually, you know if they say oh how when when he comes out how much do we boom up to you know and we came to here seems like we need a riser. Oh no, we're OK No, no. I think we need a riser. You're going to be right up against the limit if you're on a riser which. Speaker 2 You never want to be, but I thought that was amazing because you're always measuring it and then it's just on the back of the tape and I've that's smart. Never seen it other than. Speaker 1 Yeah, that's smart. And I mean that's pretty much it. I would, I would put the, obviously I'd put the camera on my shoulder, get a balance for handheld work. So here I would go back to the eyepiece bracket that usually comes with the system because you want something really solid. So, So look at where you're going to hold the camera, how you going to hold it. That's a personal preference. Every operator likes doing something different, but I don't like using handles. I like holding on to the mat box, mat box, but that's just me. So you may want to have a different kind of battery in the back to level out the balance. So again, so handheld would be something you would be looking at. Also, I use a easy rig from time to time. I use it almost exclusively from what we call hip fire, which is shooting from hip. I love shooting from belt height for a lot of different reasons, usually stunts. Anything that's action always looks better at around belt height. It always does stunts look better. Kicks are higher so and getting shooting from belt height is difficult for an operator handheld because now you're holding the thing cradling it in your arm. I don't care what your biceps look like, after four or five takes you're going to get pretty worn out, so the easy rig will help with that. It'll get me to where I need to be and then I can either use the EVF or a monitor, whatever the case may be. So setting up the easy rig so that's balanced, the pick point is correct for balance. Doing all that, that's also part of the whole thing. And then lastly, this is something new that I've been doing is I use a a calm system. I've avoided it for years and years, you know, as we made the transition to digital. Because I've never had, I've never had to, you know, have a communication. Speaker 2 System as my crew. One thing I ask everybody is do you use it? How do you use it? Speaker 1 I I use it to talk to just my team. If there's AB unit on the system they're not on that. I can break that off and put it on a different system. On my a camera system, it's the focus puller, the second AC, the Dolly grip, and usually there will be a set sitting at the DIT tent that's turned off in case the DP wants to give me a note. Hopefully not in the middle of a shot, do something different or watch out for this. Whatever, I can get that note but the. It's not on all the time on the DP and no, no, no, no, no that you keep off because. Speaker 2 Yeah, 'cause I I just, I have a thing where I just can't have a headset on during the shot. I'll I and what I've said with people who want want to be on it is I just said look, the second the shots over I'll put it on if you need to tell me something. But when I'm doing the shot, I just, I I can't have someone in my ear. I can't be thinking someone's going to be in my ear and I just need to be in the shot and and to me it's always. One of those things that if they have to tell me something, it's probably too late, right? Speaker 1 And you need therapy for that kind of stuff. But I bet there are different ways. Like I I also don't wear something that closes off the ear. Oh yeah, yeah, because I need to hear ambient of what's going wrong. So or what's going well? So I just have like a you know I have. I've just researched online and found something that works for me in your. Speaker 2 Piece. There's a ton of stuff. I mean, it's amazing what's happening with that now on a totally different level. But I was going to ask you this before, but I I'm sorry, is that the end of end of your. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. I mean, basically what it comes down to is you're sort of like me, which is like. And you learn this pretty quickly if you think, well, I need to do this now because I'll do this like, you know, on day one or whatever, it never happens. Speaker 1 Like because you're hitting the ground running so fast, you never have the time to to figure some time to do this. Speaker 2 And to do it in Prep, so, so, so the key that I would say to anybody is like. Everything. You've got to figure it out. Figure it out in prep. Speaker 1 Keep a list like I just did. I cheated, you know? And then in the podcast time, when you asked me what do you do during prep, I asked you to pause and I opened up my phone and I went to my note that That tells me because I didn't forget anything. So yeah, that's. But. Speaker 2 The truth is is like, you only prep every so often, so it's good to keep this list and keep adding to it. It's one of those things. It's like when I go on location, I have my like location kit, which is I'm just talking about like, you know? Pots and pans for the apartment and stuff like that. And every time I add stuff to it that I realize I should, I should bring with me. But shooting for the edit, do you think about the edit when you're shooting? Not that it's your job because you've got scripture as you got a director, but do you do you consider that? Speaker 1 Yeah, I do all the time. I I often will ask the director what comes before this. What's the shot that that that precedes this in the movie? And they'll look up and they go, a lot of them will know it right away. Oh, that's easy. It's going to be that great big crankshot did outside and that that where he wheels up and and and we're going to smash cut to there. Great good to know. But the reason I ask those kind of questions is that you want to make sure that what you're planning to do now is kind of a seamless cut from the outgoing shot. So if I have a shot of you handsome face that you are and then you're in the next scene. I don't think it makes sense to start on Dave's face because now you're cutting from so maybe I start with your computer and you'll open your computer and I tip up to you makes a better cut So you're you're thinking of the edit all the time. I do as well. I mean I I I again not often times you don't really need to be but I you know you ask me whether I think of the edit. I do, I do. And I also think of it too with position of other cameras. You know if if a the camera is going there. First of all, are they on the right side of the screen, direction of the line? OK, well, that hopefully they've already figured that out. And then And then what? What size are they getting? So if they're getting the same size as me, then it's a very difficult to cut. It's very tough to cut to go from something, let's say a waist shot to another waist shot. So either they should be tighter or looser or I should be tighter. And then that's something you pitch to the director or the DP and say, hey, maybe we should change the the, you know, the composition to make a better cut. So there's all kinds of reasons to think of the edit, absolutely. Speaker 2 So I think we're probably going to, we're going to probably going to wrap up here. I could talk to you for 12 hours about this, but but so the final question I'll ask you and then I want you to tell 'cause I didn't tell anybody about your newsletter, so I want, I want you to mention your newsletter and also maybe re mention your Instagram account just so everybody knows about it. I'm a brand new operator. I'm I'm starting my career. What advice would you give me? Speaker 1 Be humble. Be Be kind. Treat. Treat people well. Treat your crew really well. Involve the people around you who have more experience than you do. Rely on people you know. Not every single day, but there are going to be times when I think a Dolly group would appreciate you turning to Dolly and saying what do you. I mean they want me to be here, but what do you think we should do here? Should we put track or should we put slider? And trust me that they will have done so many movies. They'll know, you know, so involve the people around you. Be kind, be collaborative, try and navigate the politics which we talked about at the very beginning of this podcast. But try and navigate those minefields by finding the the correct intervention that they require from AB camera operator. Are you there all the time are you, are you are you actively part of it when they're blocking and we're looking at you right there right beside me or do you lay back a little bit so you don't make the DP think that oh you know this is going to be crazy it's going to be multi camera show. So maybe you lay back and maybe you make yourself more apparent later when we start working out the mechanics, you might say, do you think there's something, you know, maybe over here on, let's say, a 75 mil that can just pick them off and, oh, that's a really great idea. Let's go pitch that. You know, let's go pitch that to the. Yeah. Or sometimes come to me. And, you know, I think a thing that I do a lot is that if I make a change and I I don't mention it because it's a subtle change, I don't mention it to the director of DP. Again, that's not always possible, but sometimes. And and the director goes, oh, that's great. You know, you, you boomed up with them and then you went to the door and saw her coming in. That's great. I love that. I would say, oh, that was Bradt idea. But I'm glad you loved it. Thanks. If they hated it, yeah, I would say okay, Sir. I'm not gonna do that again. Do you get it? No. Absolutely. You want to make the people feel around you protected so that they can give you ideas and if you adopt them and and it becomes, oh it's a good thing you say hey, but. Speaker 2 It's like we're talking about with actors. It's setting trust. Speaker 1 It's setting the absolutely, absolutely. So as as a as a younger camera operator, you want to be kind. You want to surround yourself with people who, as you know, who obviously are going to be experienced and sometimes just listen. Keep your ears open. Speaker 2 Listen and learn is a lot of it, right? Speaker 1 On the subject of listening, we didn't actually talk about this. Sorry. I know you're kind of probably out of time. No, no. No, but I wear a Comtech, which I should explain what a Comtech is. It's a, it's an, it's a earpiece that's connected to a belt pack that broadcasts the the dialogue. So the director wears one script, Supervisor has one. You know, many people on set, carry them around. I always, always, always, always wear a Comtech. Even if there's no dialogue. There is a Comtech on my body. Maybe I'm not wearing an earpiece. I have my own earpieces too. I don't like the ones I get from them. I have my own. Who's wearing a Comtech has to because they give you those ones that sort of fit over your ear and fall off. I just you just find one that works for you and then get a couple of versions of them because they break. So. And the reason I'll have it on me is because sometimes in the midst of a shot that really has no dialogue, all of a sudden I see that he or she or something is doing something and saying something. And I don't want to miss it, particularly if I've got a lot going on and I'm on a Steadicam and she says something coming around that corner. I don't want to be miss framed for that. So instead of stopping the show, I think Peter needs a contact and they got to bring it in. I just pull the thing out, stick it on my ear. I have it on me all the time. The main reason is when you're shooting dialogue and you're listening to the audio and you're listening to the, to the, to the script, it gives you a better perspective of the movie. You understand now. You're watching the movie, you're hearing the dialogue, you know your cues when to do your push. You know exactly every so many actors don't realize it, but there are so many clues you get just by hearing things. Sometimes the director will come over to the actor and say, hey, you know what? When you jump up and say I'm going to kill, you do that. After this line, no one bothered to tell me, but I just overheard it. I mean, I wasn't eavesdropping, but I was kind of because he's wearing a mic and it's on an open mic and I heard it. Note for Peter Peter's processed the note. He's going to be ready. Also, something I've noticed is that many actors will take a breath before bolting out of a chair. Like there's there's there's audio cues that happen all the time that help you. You will be a better operator if you hear everything that's going. Speaker 2 By the way, going back to what we're talking about before is, and I've done this before, is like you'll have your contact on in between scenes and an actual be talking. You'll reach over and be like, hey, I think your your microphones on just to be aware, you know, Yeah, yeah. And it's one of those things where they're like, Oh my God. And then it's another thing. Where, oh, this operator's watching out for me. And so it's one of those ancillary things. I've done that more than once, actually. Speaker 1 Where you sometimes they get on their phone. Yeah, they're with their wife. They're. Speaker 2 Talking to their agent or whatever. Speaker 1 Yeah, And how everybody can hear you, you're you're still, you're still naked. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, those are those are all those are all fantastic. I mean, there's so many, but those are all great things. For again, part of the reason I started all this was because. I just want to put out there all the things I wish I knew when I was starting. Nobody told me and I had to learn. I'm still learning. You know, one thing I want to ask you about is you, you are a member of the SSC, the Society of Camera Operators. That's actually where you and I met. We we taught a course there that that you were teaching actually, and called me in and said can you come in and help out with this? And then I did another one and I said can you help me with this? Just tell me about the SoC and and and should should someone become a member of the SoC and what do they get for it? Speaker 1 Super, super glad you asked that. I I I think that for anyone listening that imagines themselves at one point that they might be in a camera operator, whether they are one now or they want they want to become a camera operator or they're just interested in learning about it. The SoC is basically a Society of camera operators. We exchange information. We have workshops, There's a there's a magazine, which I think now is fully digital, right I. Speaker 2 Don't think so? Speaker 1 Yeah, so there's a magazine that comes out digitally which has stories and equipment reviews and stuff like that. There's a of course, a a black tie event once a year to celebrate the industry and to celebrate not just camera operators, but those that work with us, like the focus Pullers and Dolly grips get celebrated at this thing. So and and I think it's really important to be part of the community. I think you know to join, there's very levels, there's, there's different levels. I think there's like a full membership which is one thing and there's an associate and there's also I think an educational membership And and it's basically to get people involved in the organization to start looking at the workshops you become you. And the most important thing in this business is contacts. It is how you get jobs, is it how you move ahead in life. It's contacts and and getting being part of the community, going to their mixers, going to their workshops. You meet other operators, you meet, you meet people and all those people help you in the end, you know, moving your career forward and getting jobs. Who should we get for AB camera operator tomorrow? Oh, I don't know. Oh, but I just saw Dave. I just saw him yesterday at that thing. He's not working. Call him. I I kid you not. That's how it works. Speaker 2 It does. It does. There's no question. It's about being in in people's minds. And the other thing I'll add to that, which is phenomenal and I don't think most people know about it is. You know there were all those videos that that that are up there like during during COVID specifically. Speaker 1 But since then which were like you know how to work with the dollar grip and how to how to use a fluid head and how to how to The Secret Life of fluid heads. Yeah, the one that you hate. And they're just this. Speaker 2 This incredible like trove of information from great operators explaining how to do action and then on top of it their their classes. Speaker 1 You know Crane classes and and you know, so join, join the SoC. Yeah at some level if you're if you're serious and considering about the world of camera operating this is only one of two organizations in the world that focus. The other one is in in Great Britain. But they also do a wonderful job. So, so yeah. Getting. Totallyagreedsoc.org soc.org. Speaker 2 What's your What's your website? And tell me what? What? Speaker 1 Tell us what? So well, there's stuff on my Instagram, Peter dot Rosenfeld, I, I I put stuff on there sometimes little tricks and stuff. And you know we talked about the how to measure latency. I think that's on there. I'm going to look as soon as I'm done here. It's not always about that. Sometimes I put motorcycling crap on there as well too. But but that that's there. And then I have a website and which is basically just to distribute a newsletter. It's Peter Peter rosenfeld.com. And the stuff that if you sign up for the newsletter, the stuff you're going to get would be things like, oh, I don't know what, what just went out like 2 weeks ago I think was something about on Suicide Squad, which was my last movie that I did on film. I sort of talked about that experience, about how, you know, me saying goodbye to film. Trust me, I was actually kind of happy to say goodbye to film. So. So it's those kind of experiences, you know, It's just like an A, like a day in the life. But you said also sometimes it's tips and and tips, yeah, there's there's tips and tricks on there too. Yeah, that's great. That's. Speaker 2 Great. I actually just found out about it. I signed up for it and I'm hoping to become a better operator. Speaker 1 I don't know about that, but but be entertained for that's great. Well. Speaker 2 Peter, this was fantastic. Speaker 1 Thank you so much for being here and thank you for all like everything you put into this and it's it's just great to sit and talk with you. I love it and you're doing such a great job with this. Thank you very much. Congratulations with everything. Speaker 2 How great was that? Just amazing. I had such a great time talking to Peter. He has so much to offer and such insight into the art of operating. It's it's incredible. Make sure to check out his newsletter and Instagram and of course our site and Instagram at the op dot IO. That's it for now. We'll see you in a couple of weeks. And thanks for listening.