Hi, News Talks Kira Kelly here. There is something about the summer that makes you want to refresh your home, and for many of us, that starts with the kitchen. It's where the morning coffee happens, where family life gathers, where friends always seem to end up, and after years of wear and tear, it might be time to give it the attention it deserves. So if you're thinking about a new kitchen, tile-style is well worth a visit because tile-style doesn't just do tiles, they also design and supply beautiful kitchens, including the luxurious Korsala Noza Kitchen Collection. Think high-quality, contemporary designs stunning finishes clever storage, and a look that can completely transform your space. Their expert team can help you plan it all properly with advice and optional virtual designs you can see how your new kitchen will come together before making any big decisions, and with tile-style summer sale now on offering exceptional value across the store, it's a brilliant time to start planning, with tiles and finishes to perfectly complement your new kitchen. So if your summer plans include creating a kitchen that feels genuinely special, start with tile-style. Visit the tile-style showroom and ballroom to see full kitchen displays and finishes up close, or explore more at tile-style.ie. You're very welcome along to Tech Talk, Physi. Just Kelly, with you here on News Talk, coming up over the next hour. We wouldn't agree with the term "addictive" what we would, you know, that doesn't mean we don't take the well-being of children incredibly seriously. We'll take a closer look at what the social media and tech giants said before the Arroctis Committee this week in terms of online safety. Gomo has entered the fiber broadband market, but is the offer really too good to be true? And as ever, I'll answer your tech questions. If you want to get in touch, you can do so right now,
[email protected], or you'll find me on Instagram @gesskellyent. I do hope you're well, but oh my gosh, what a week it has been. Even with the bank holiday Monday, the last week has felt like a month in both Techland and Gessland generally. I'm still catching my breath. If you heard the show last week, you'll know that we were in the US. We broadcast it from Washington and Philadelphia with Arlen Gateway to Europe. And it was a wild and wonderful week, but many of you got in touch with me to say I was deeply unfair with my assessment of the US capital. So I promise I will go back again one day and reassess my thoughts and feelings but this week I want to start with news relating to US companies that directly impact us here at home. On Thursday, executives from Meta, TikTok, Snapchat and Microsoft appeared before an Iraq Discomitie to talk once again about online safety. I watched the entire session and for the most part there wasn't a whole lot that we haven't heard before. However, one thing that did jump out at me was the focus on the addictive side of the platforms rather than just the content which had previously been the case. I did a bit of a cartoonish double-take when I heard this question an answer between Sinn Feins, Claire Karan and TikTok's minor safety public policy lead, Richard Collardt. I think we wouldn't agree with the term "addictive". But that doesn't mean we don't take the well-being of children incredibly seriously. When we look at TikTok, for instance, the recommended algorithm, for us that is about making sure that with a platform with 100 million pieces content uploaded every day, that is content that is relevant to the users of our platform. Yeah, that's TikTok's minor safety public policy lead, Richard Collardt. Now, if you've been following all of this as closely as I have over the last wee while, you'll know full well that these platforms are never going to commit an own up to the addictive nature of their design, as that is a portal to a whole lot of pain for them. But I was struck by the number of 100 million pieces of content being uploaded every single day. It was yet another reminder that police in the internet can at times feel like catching smoke. So what did we learn and where are we going? Alex Cuny of Cybersafe Kids is with me once again to talk this through Alex. I'd love to know your thoughts because I think it's really useful having the tech companies at these or octas committees. There's a slight element of groundhog day in terms of what they're able to tell us and what they do tell us. But I did think it was notable that there was more talk on the addiction side rather than just focusing on the content as has previously been the case. Absolutely, and that's no doubt on the back of a couple of things. So one is obviously the European Commission's investigation, we have preliminary findings into TikTok, which determined that the model was addictive. And then the court case in California brought by a young woman known as Kaylee against YouTube and Instagram, and where they were found liable for deliberate addictive design choices and basically harmful design as a result of it. And causing grave mental health concerns to this young woman. So I think the deputies and senators as present will be well aware of that landscape. And it is important that we do scrutinise these different angles. And addiction comes up a lot. Yeah. Now one thing that we spoke about when that case, Kaylee's case was ongoing was the definition of addiction, the CEO of Instagram. It's been a lot of time in the box trying to determine the definition of Instagram saying that there was no clear sort of medical diagnosis as such. I just paid a clip there of Richard Collard of TikTok who also refuted the word addiction. Were you like me kind of banging your head on your desk while watching it as the the utmost, the utmost refusal to acknowledge any form of addictive design with these various platforms? I mean, it doesn't surprise me. They of course are going to refute that. It's very frustrating for us as onlookers, especially against this backdrop of increasing evidence to the country. It was only a few short weeks ago where they were in front of a different doctors committee. And I think it was Deputy Shenei Gibney asked this very direct question to those present. It was Google, it was meta, it was TikTok asking, yes or no, have you designed it as services that is supposed to be addictive? And of course, they said no. And even yesterday with Microsoft present, it was all about interest and we're just trying to respond to people's interest to make it more engaging for them. But there is a trade off to that. And it's darker than that. It isn't just interest-based as we know. So I think that we do need to get to the bottom of this. It's frustrating that we have to wait for these court cases and the investigations and the endless legal challenges before you can expect any kind of change. And on top of that, we have to listen to young people here. They don't want to be banned from being online, but they really don't like certain elements of being online. And that kind of recommender algorithms, sending them down rabbit holes of horrible content. They really clearly don't like. And I think we should be listening to them more. 100% and it was really interesting. And I think one of the most impactful parts of the, this particular sitting and sort of coming together of this committee was the fact that they've heard from young people, the TDs and the senators, they've heard from young people. And they consistently referred to that over the last wee while. But I found it really interesting listening to, you know, Juleto O'Brien of Meshah, the executives from the other social companies, again, refuting that their business model relied on people staying on the platform. They were saying things like, you know, safety and well-being is of core concern to us. They also refuted the notion of, you know, the platforms not having safety ingrained into the DNA of the platforms. It's, it's, again, I just find it baffling to see the conviction with which they can say these things when, you know, I know from conversations I've had with you over the last 10 years, that's just fundamentally not the case. They weren't built with safety in mind. This is something that they've retrospectively put features in place to try and address. But to say it's, you know, ingrained in the DNA or whatever terminology they use, that is just not factually correct. No, I agree. It is not factually correct. And it's actually quite frustrating to hear references to, oh, our products are built with, you know, safety by design in mind. You know, every element of them is baked with this in mind. And it's just like, no, it isn't. We all know that the priority here is the commercial product, you know, that the commercialization of that product, which is built on engagement. So everything comes secondary to that. You know, and it, you know, it's, as I said, it's been increasingly proven to be the case. But of course, they're going to sit there and say, you know, that is not true. And until they are forced to accept that liability and forced to change that practice. And this is why I think we get way late talking about bands, you know, again, that was, that was in the media again this week, you know, the idea that we might introduce a band. It does not get the heart of this business model that is so problematic. You know, and I think early indications even from Australia, I'm like, too.
appreciate it is early days, you know, we're only a few months in. But you know, the early ender vacations are that these companies are largely using their own insurance solutions, which I think is problematic in its own way from a trust point of view. And there are plenty of kids still finding ways around these restrictions, you know, sometimes actually with family help, you know, maybe siblings, but in some cases, I heard that even with from parents, so, you know, and of course they can still access plenty of stuff through a browser, you know, YouTube and TikTok are very easily accessible through a browser and without the kind of additional safeguards. So yeah, and they're kind of, it references that a couple of the representatives made to time checks, oh, well, we put this time check up, but you can easily swipe it away, is the problem. You can easily undo it. And you know, when we're again, when I was talking to these, I was talking to these young people in a workshop this week, and you know, we were talking about real, what would be a real meaningful circuit breaker, you know, like to stop you kind of just getting completely lost in endless scrolling or endless shorts. And you know, so it was, it was so interesting to hear their perspectives, because they said, look, if it's just a kind of thing where you can swipe it away or put in a code, we'll just do it and carry on. Yeah, whereas actually, if you kind of forced us to engage with something longer, you know, we were so talking about a circuit breaker of longer content, whether and that was causing me either to put the phone down if they weren't interested or to engage with it. But you know, we need kind of proper, like design that isn't going to suck people down these rabbit holes. Yeah, it's funny. I was thinking about that exact point, you know, there's been times when I've been in bed on my phone, online shopping, putting stuff into the cart and then buying it automatically, because I can just put my fingerprint on my phone and all of a sudden the stuff is bought. Whereas when I got a new card, I had to go downstairs and get the card, put the number in. And that stopped me. I said, you know what, I'm not asked, I'm not going to buy this. And so it's funny how that level of friction, if there's any type of meaningful friction, it does change behaviors, it does change attitudes. And I do think you're right. And the young people are right, there needs to be something that's a bit more than just a little swipoi. But you mentioned the word ban there. And I've been intrigued by this because once again, I saw headlines this week that mentioned Ireland's social media ban and Minister Adonivan is looking to go solo if you're the you doesn't get behind a social media ban. Now, I was on to Minister Adonivan's office this week looking for clarity on this point. And it was restated to me that Ireland isn't looking to introduce a social media ban. What Ireland, as I understand it, and as it was explained to me by the office, what Ireland's approach is is a safer online experience whereby age verification robust age verification takes place. Young people as a 13 or 14 year olds will still be able to act and indeed 15 year olds will still be able to access social media. But they will be 100% in the right category, i.e. teen accounts or whatever, with whatever platform based precautions are in place. And then the onus will be on the social platforms to ensure that no harmful content is accessed by that age group. That's my understanding and that's what's been explained to me. The notion of a ban, I think it's a very big word. It's a very broad term. And as you said in the case of of Australia, it doesn't actually work. Well, and you know what, if everything you just described there in terms of response from the Minister's office suggests to me, I mean, the companies will all fall back on. We have teen experiences already. We're already providing those safer, you know, we're already, you know, responding to the regulation that is in place at the European level. Several times there was mention of the Digital Services Act and all the things they're doing. And we know that this is not good enough, right? That we already know that this is not good enough. So to my mind, I'd be saying, well, hang on, what is different? Where are you? Where is the going to be the change moving forward? Because, you know, we know that age restrictions have been very poor and inadequate and largely based on self-decloration. So when we're talking like about, okay, yeah, they're saying, "properate verification, but are they actually going to look at what that looks like and who owns it?" Because again, I am not comfortable that these companies get to use their own solutions and gather more of our data when, you know, I personally have so little trust in how they're already using our data, the data that they have, the extensive data. So yeah, I feel like we need to, we need much greater clarity over what good looks like, you know, and we need, and I've said this before and we've discussed this before, we need to take the kind of precautionary principle, like there is no other product or medicine or clothing that ends up in the hands of a child, you know, kind of, that hasn't been subject to rigorous checks and balances. You know that the testing, they have to prove that those products aren't harmful to the consumer before they get access to the consumer. And I think if we need to flip this around because the current system basically involves the regulator, society proving that the harm is there, endlessly proving. And of course, then those that proof is subject to legal challenges, as we've seen with the Data Protection Commission, they've done 13 investigations into Big Tech in Ireland, 11 of those are still ongoing, some of them five, six years on, less than 1% of those fines have been paid. So when we, when we're looking for kind of real substantive change, we could be wasting a long time, unless, unless we put proper measures in place. Yeah, when I heard Minister of the Un with Anton Savage on Friday's news talk breakfast and you know, he has stressed that he is adamant, this is a priority. And that's something will be done. And the point that he was making is if an EU agreement can be reached, Ireland will go it alone. But that doesn't mean Ireland's introducing a ban, it's introducing that verification step. But it was very interesting at the Aroctis Committee because one of the TDs or senators asked the executives from social media and tech companies their view on this the verification at an OS level. So on the device itself, so met and TikTok said that they were in favor of it. But it was really interesting to hear a representative from Google saying that they wouldn't be in favor it. And the analogy that she gave, which did give me pause, was that when somebody walks into a supermarket, you don't ask for ID, you ask for ID when they go to buy booze. And so her point there was you shouldn't have to do this for people accessing every single website or access to the internet as a whole. It should only be in certain instances. So I thought about that and I was like, she's that is a good point. But then I was reflecting on points that you've made to me in the past, which is social media isn't the only part of the internet where harmful content can be assumed accessed. And the assumption that, you know, it's either social media or porn and that's the height of the bad stuff on the internet, that's not accurate. And it also gives then that work around to access TikTok or whatever it is via a browser. So in my head, the verification through the app store is the solution that does make the most of it made sense to me. What's your view on that? Yeah, I do. I've heard this, this debate has been kind of ongoing for several years at this stage. I think veteran TikTok have long advocated that this is held at the app store level. And obviously that puts the owners on Google and Apple. But yeah, I feel there is still responsibly responsibility at the app level to have a safer, to provide a safer experience safer and age appropriate experience. And again, I this is where I would go back to saying, I would like much more independent scrutiny around age and suitability and risk because, you know, so much is missed. We often aren't talking about gaming platforms. You know, I know we've discussed this before, but you know, the likes of roadblocks actually, when you look at the definition of social media, it takes every box, user generated content, you've got to share the car, you know, the contact, you know, all of that is there. It is essentially a universe as we know. And the idea that that wouldn't be subject to the same level of scrutiny is extraordinary to me. So I feel we need, you know, this and I'm very concerned that under the existing regulation at the European level, these companies largely get to self-assess their own risk. And I don't, again, coming back down to that trust, they have historically downplayed risk. We know that we see whistleblower reports that prove that. So the idea that they get to self-assess risk, even though it is subject to an audit, they get to choose the auditor. So again, you're not getting that real, rigorous independent assessment as to the risk versus age suitability. So to my mind, we need to look at this much more closely. We had the opportunity to go to Europe a couple of weeks ago where this debate is also being had across European countries because of course, certain countries are moving ahead anyway. You know, despite the harmonization rules that we're all supposed to be working under in relation to regulating the tech sector, some countries are moving ahead, but the problem is they're moving ahead with different ages. So you've got kind of 14 in the mix, you've got 15, you've got 16. And it's just, you know, a, confusing, but you don't get that reform that, you know, and the change to the features. You know, as I said, go back to what the kids said, ban the features. Don't ban us. You know, make it a safer experience so we can enjoy it. And I think, you know, we saw were gaming as an always include in these discussions, AI chat bots. Increasingly, we should be looking at they post slightly different risks to, you know, traditional social media.
video gaming platforms, but nonetheless, there are absolutely risks there and children are engaging with them and they're engaging with them from a young age. And we're not regulating them. So, you know, new products and features have been rolled out all the time without those checks and answers. So, yeah, we need big, big changes really ahead. We do. We do. And I think when I look at what's happened in Australia and even due to O'Brien from a meta-mate this point, the band came in to play for under 16s, but every bit of, you know, research or reporting that has commised in the wake of this shows that kids now are grouping together, finding each other online on other apps that don't fall within the very strict limitations of the social media band. And so, I always come back to the same points and that I don't think bands work. And I also think it comes down to education as well. I was struck by TikTok saying at the Araratus Media Committee on Thursday that, you know, they send out leaflets to schools. But I've heard from teachers that say, we don't have time to be addressing all of these things as well. But we do need to find an education portal. We do need to facilitate more conversations and awareness for both parents and young people. Because you're dead right. Like this has to be a universal understanding of what's acceptable, what's legal, what's illegal, what's right and what's wrong, the same way we have in day-to-day physical life. Absolutely. And actually, I'm really not comfortable with the idea that TikTok is sending leaflets to schools. You know, I feel like they, you know, it's virtually an advertisement of their products and services. Yes, we absolutely need digital literacy. But that should come through the curriculum and upskilling teachers and supporting kids to foster digital literacy skills and critical thinking skills. We need to be doing that through the curriculum in a very independent way. So not influenced by individual tech companies, you know, which we are seeing. We are seeing all these different offerings now from different companies, you know, that trying to kind of influence the school schools all, you know, in the name of, oh, we're just supporting education. But, you know, you really do have to question the the ulterior motives as well. So, yeah, I completely agree. We need proper education. That is a 100% part of the solution. We all know there's no one silver bullet. So we need a range of measures. Education. We need to support parents and upskill parents. So that they feel they can make informed choices. But until we change this model, this, you know, the business model itself, it is going to be a problem for children and their parents. Yeah, no 100%. And my final question is, again, I referenced earlier, Minister Jonathan Mousamarantan and Anton made the point that, you know, if you go forward and calls this level of disruption by changing how social media works for under 16s, you might take off some of the big tech companies on which we are very reliant from an economic point of view. And is that something that we should be worried about? Like, do you anticipate the big tech companies getting the hump and going off? Because from what I can see, they struggle to find a welcoming neighbor who would allow the status quo to continue with certainly within Europe. Yeah, it's a tricky one and it comes up a lot. I mean, to be honest, I think they have enormous influence as it is, you know, at every level, at the Irish level, at the European level, certainly in the US level. And I think it's an outsized influence. So that definitely needs to be balanced. And we, you know, at the end of the day, we need to regulate this sector and it needs to be a level playing field so that they rightly can't claim that, you know, one is being disproportionately, you know, impacted over another. So it needs to be consistent. It needs to be proportionate, obviously, and it needs to be risk based. But no, I don't think they're likely to pack their bags and move elsewhere. And they probably would be friendlier, maybe not English speaking, but there would potentially be friendlier smaller countries that might host them. But I think that this is why we need European wide approaches. And, you know, obviously we do at the moment have already have the Digital Services Act. Of course, I don't think it goes far enough. I think it allows too much leeway to the company. So I want to see that change. And I know they are considering these issues. They've appointed this special ex, but panel, as a volunteer line, appointed it. It's met twice. We were at the second meeting. They will meet a third time and then the two chairs will provide a report to us, LeWandle Lion. I think it's like July time. So to my mind, the best thing we can do is agree across Europe on our approach so that there isn't a sort of safer, easier place to work or to kind of provide your headquarters that you're going to face the same kind of approach in every country, which I think is totally fair and reasonable. But yeah, I guess we have to see how far Europe is willing to push it. Alex Cudy of CyberSafe Kids. As always, thank you so much for joining me here on Newstalk. Thank you. Yeah, I'd love to know your thoughts on this one. Because again, I feel like people are obsessed with the notion of a ban. But in my opinion, as I've said many times, a ban isn't the answer. Ireland's solution seems to be a mature approach, but it does require more effort on the part of the social media and tech companies bearing in mind that they are all filthy rich. Like the cost of doing this would be negligible to keep our young people safe online. So I do think we need to keep the pressure up. I also do feel obliged, as I always do when we have these conversations, to say that the reason I'm not in favour of a ban is because there are so many brilliant things that young people can do online. There is no denying that some of the educational content on TikTok, on Instagram, on YouTube shorts, on YouTube as a whole is phenomenal. I, as a fully grown adults, go to YouTube to learn things and I find it incredibly beneficial. But the difference is I, as an adult, know that I can walk away and I know when to walk away. A younger person who is met with the infinite scroll doesn't. And that is the fundamental sign of TikTok in particular, is of concern here. It's the same with Instagram Reels. Now as we mentioned on the show a few weeks ago, Google introduced a new feature that parents can enable to limit the amount of time young people can spend with YouTube shorts, which is a step in the right direction. Again, though, that just highlights to me that there are technological solutions here. There are off switches for these platforms that can be enabled. So whether it's a lack of will or want or whatever, there is more that the tech companies can do. And hopefully they do it because I would hate to think of a whole generation just being banned, outright banned. And as I alluded to there as well, in Australia, that approach hasn't worked because kids are congregating elsewhere. But as I said, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
[email protected]. Right, when we come back here on News Talk, GOMO is entering the fiber market. But is it as good as it seems?
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