On the Sheet: David Pagnotta on Dylan Larkin, Simon Edvinsson, the Leafs Search for a D, and More

Right now, it's Dave Pagnota time. From the DFO Insider podcast and the fourth period, a good friend, David Pagnota, Dave, so much to get into here. One thing that I did sort of want to put on the table and many people have sort of made this point. I don't know that it's a mitigating factor other than it's just a factor, not a factor, but just a reality. A lot of people are making the point that it's an interesting dynamic. And so much of this in the Detroit situation is about dynamics. Sean Horcoff's son, well, who's a Pittsburgh Penguins prospect, plays University of Michigan. He's a Wolverine, also representing ICAA and Pat Brisson. I don't know. I think there were a lot of people yesterday that were sort of reading into Sean Horcoff, maybe not going hard at Dylan Larkin as much as certainly fans are, where other people are. Like, it's just one of those situations where like everyone can wear different hats for different conversations and different personalities, but that's just a reality here, too. Yeah. Yeah, that is. There are a lot of relationships in these like hockey is big sport, but it is a small world. It's the smallest big sport in North America. It's the smallest big sport. And so much of this situation seemed to just be about personality and title dynamics, too. Like, I think a lot of this is as mentioned earlier. I think a lot of this goes all the way back to Steve Iserman saying, when Larkin barked about not getting any help at trade deadline, from Iserman and Larkin, Iserman essentially saying, "Team's not good enough. Team's not good enough. I'm not here to send for the posse. Forget about it." And here's Larkin going, like, hold on a second. I signed the contract good faith that we're going to be building and getting better and better. And now all of a sudden, my general manager is saying, "Yeah, about that stuff we talked about before, yeah. That's not what we're about right now." And I think also from his side of things, he's going, "Isn't that your fricking job? Isn't that what you're supposed to be doing? You're supposed to be getting us better." I signed, as you said. I signed here in good faith because you said we were going to start going on the incline. We were going to start competing. And we're not there. You know, these are the cards in the deck, hold the deck. You haven't swapped out any of these cards yet. And I get it. It's been two years of this for Dylan Larkin being frustrated because the message was, we're going to get better. We're going to compete. We're going to be a playoff team. We're going to build off that. We've got you. We acquired to bring it. We have room. We have cider. We have Advancin. We have a lot of these kids coming up. We're going to keep going on this. And it didn't happen. And not nearly to the extent that Larkin was led to believe. And so I understand that frustration, I get it. And I also understand the fan side of things too because this is supposed to be your captain who is supposed to go through the ups and downs with your organization. But when the downs have significantly outweighed the ups, he takes his position. He takes his stance. And yeah, I mean, the messaging could be a little bit more, could it be a little bit more harsh. But, you know, I mean, you know, there's only so much work off can do at this stage. And he's trying to navigate two situations right now because lost in all of this, not maybe, maybe not all of it, but lost in part of this is Simon Advancin who still wants to be traded. And they're still navigating that. So these are two different scenarios, two different big impact players that Sean Horkoff is juggling as he's going through these trading negotiations. Just as an aside, I'm glad you brought up Evanson. I got a text from someone yesterday saying, you know what today is yesterday? You know what today would be a perfect day for? And I said, what's that? He goes, oh, one year off for sheet for Simon Edson and then, boom, obviously didn't happen. But nonetheless, a girl can dream. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, that would shake things up. That'd be nice. But it's like everything going on, like they're navigating this. And Detroit, like I've heard what, excuse me, San Jose, for example, was willing to move out in a deal for Edmonds and Detroit said, which surprised me. And I'm, we know St. Louis is this and we know the Kraken have been in it as well. And there are other teams in Nashville and Boston and Philly and others. Another Carolina. Carolina would imagine. Yes, sorry. Yes. Carolina, absolutely. They've definitely been kicking tires on this and trying to go down that road too. So there's this big element that they've got to figure out. And then there's the Larkin one. So I go back to what we talked about on Insider this week, like do you take the pieces that you could potentially get for Edmonds and is it more palatable for a team to give up a young, potential number one center for a first pair of defensemen as opposed to a young, up and coming number one defenseman for Dylan Larkin. Can you get the center piece in an Edmonds in deal and get the other pieces in a Larkin deal? And it sounds like they're trying to get two centers out of both of this, but we'll see kind of where it goes. There's more of a deadline in place right now for Edvinson, having assigned by December first in order to play the season. Right. And Larkin, there is no deadline, really, per se, not yet. Unless, like here's what I always wonder about, like where are all the pressure points in all of this? Like where's that right now? You know, Brian Brickley was just on a second ago and he was making the point that by Larkin doing this at least temporarily, it takes the heat off work off. It takes the heat off Larkin making a deal, like he's taking his puck and he's gone home. And so that's his decision. And a lot of the attention now is going to be in a lot of the narrative around now is the obvious. He has a contract. He should be at work dammit. I think this is a lot more nuanced. I don't know what agreements were already promised between the two sides as far as like deadlines or the obligations of both. And there may be none. We just don't know it, just like we don't know what the offers are. Like, all we've heard is that a threat red wing side of things, Sean Harkov, in terms general manager, say the offers aren't there yet, okay, but we don't know what the offers are. Now, CAA would know what has come in because you would go to the to the player to talk about the teams that are involved here. But we don't know any of this, like I've been saying, like we're not getting enough, you know, we're not getting enough fingers on the typewriter here at all to try to sus out is one side, is it only one side behaving in good faith? Because if you look at that Pat Reeson comment yesterday, it very much is if you read in between the lines, it gets your CAA to coderring on, that's essentially CAA saying these guys are, like we're done with this, only one side is operating in good faith here. Right. Yeah. We don't know and we may never know, we may be, you know, eventually shed some light on the situation from Detroit, from Detroit side of things, but we don't, as of now we don't know, we can only speculate on what we think the offers are, you know, I mean, I could tell you, you know, Washington likes the produce, excuse me, Detroit likes the produce brothers in Washington, I don't think the capitals want to move them. So you can want this and want that piece and say, hey, we're trying, but if you keep trying for pieces that aren't available, how hard are you really trying? I mean, I know you got to push a little bit, this is an negotiation, you can't just, you know, concede to everything and say, okay, well, next, let's go to the next one. But, and which just kind of seems like with, with Minnesota, okay, we want you're off, but we also want this A premium piece and, and your picks rather than another roster piece just to make money work. So it is a tricky negotiation, certainly, obviously, but, you know, some teams that they're dealing with, almost every team that they're dealing with, and I'll actually, excuse me, every team that they're dealing with as part of this 10 team list, they're all contenders. They're not going to be stripping away additional pieces on their immediate roster to bring in Dylan Larkin, because it doesn't move you forward necessarily. Where do you add on, here's the biggie, where do you add on Montreal here? I still believe that the Canadians will pull a trigger like that if they have an opportunity together. Oh, I believe that. I'm, I'm thinking more, more from your Larkin side, like, there are no Canadian teams on that list. We all know that. Yeah. But is, is Montreal different? Montreal always seems to be different in that respect for Europeans. I think it's similar on the American side. You've got Americans there. Coffee. Quite happy. Hudson. Fowler. Yeah, they love it. They're loving life there. Yeah. You know, and they've tried. I think coffee will try it in the summer to be like, hey, buddy, yeah. Pretty good spot. I think it is, if you're winning, it is the best place to be in the NHL when you're winning. There's nothing better than Montreal. No. And, and yeah, it's a, this shit ton of fans on both sides, excuse me. Yeah. Yeah. they're respectful, they're respectful, for the most part, I grew up there, I saw guys walking around and stuff like that, back in the day, I remember one instance, walking with my dad and my uncle, and there was a couple guys that walked by, and just a quick high, and that's it, you just quick hello, not on the hand, what's up, good game last night, you see something like that, and you keep it going, it's not the overpowering, hey, you're out to lunch with your family, can I get an autograph in a picture, and you just push your family aside, like it's not that crazy stuff that we see in other sports and other markets, or even in this sport and other markets, a Montreal always has that different vibe to it, and I've been wondering, is there a time frame that he's got, Larkin has, where he goes, all right, enough of this, let's just do this, because it's not just the Canadians, Buffalo has poked around, Boston has poked around, I know LA poked around earlier, I haven't heard much on that front lately, but there are other teams that aren't part of this list, then I've been trying to poke and prod and say, hey, we can make something work here, you convince them to come here, you know, and until, and I don't, and correct me if I'm wrong, Jeff, I don't know if this is out there, I don't think it is, because I don't think this is the case yet, where they've given Pappers on, and Matt Williams the opportunity to talk to other teams to try to convince them to go in that direction, teams not on the list, I mean, I don't think so, no, I don't think so, I don't think that's, that's been, so until it gets to that point, you know, I don't see where a Montreal or a Boston or whomever can come in here and swoop in and beat out those 10 other teams on his list, at least not yet. What do you think this goes, I want to get to Edvinston here in a second, because I do think as much as there, they seem like they're on an island, in some senses, it does feel like they're linked, but what do you think this heads now, do you think there's a cooling off right now or does Horcoff need to get to work right away, because bluntly, what I wonder about here is the Chris Elich of all of this, and I was talking this with, with Berkey, that if, if at the end of the day, he's vetoing trades, Berkey said, well, then Sean Hork, I'm doing my best, Berkey, Sean Horkoff needs to find another job, needs to look for none of this is bad, Berkey, as sent you what he's saying is, if the owner is vetoing trades, because he said, Henry Stamieu, well, he only vetoed the Keith Kachak trade with him, and that was because of budget, but if he's, if he's vetoing like hockey trades, he said, then Horkoff needs to start looking for another job. That's right. Yeah, I agree with him. I don't know if it's that, I don't know if it's to that point, but I do believe based on who I've talked to, that Chris Elich is involved in some capacity in this decision process. How integral in all of this is he? In the negotiations? I don't know. I don't think this is necessarily, you know, Tom Dundin is very active in Carolina, like he's, he's very active alongside Eric Tulski in trying to make roster related decisions, and then Tulski and his crew finalize everything. I don't think it's to that effect, you know, where he's that involved in, you know, calling other teams or agents and things like that and trying to make things work. I don't think he's, he's to that level, but again, Tom lets Eric and everybody else figure the final stuff out. I don't think it's to that extent, but I do believe he's, his tentacles are around this to some degree. It's Simon Edvinson. It would have been glorious if there was at the end of all of this and offer sheet yesterday for Simon Edvinson. That didn't happen clearly, but as we head into the weekend here as Simon Edvinson is still without a new team, I'm sure like again, like the preference is, the preference is to sign the player, I think we can all play and I have, you know, wondered about, you know, how different is, like, how different is the NHL right now if, um, if Steve Isman would have said, yeah, we will throw Edvinson in the Quinn Hughes deal because that's what kept Quinn Hughes away from Detroit, right? That was Steve Isman saying, I'm not putting Edvinson in the deal. If he had and Quinn Hughes would have gone to Detroit and Edvinson would have been in Vancouver just how different, I mean, how different is Minnesota, how different is a conversation around the Hughes family. Maybe it's not Quinn to Jersey, but Jack and Luke to Michigan, like so many different things. But where are we at now with Simon Edvinson, who is technically still a member of the Red Wings? Yeah, uh, those conversations continue and again, as far as I know, his mindset hasn't changed. He's, you know, he was training in Boston. He's been bouncing around a little bit. I don't think he's there right now. He's elsewhere across the United States, but also staying in shape and training and just waiting. I think he's waiting for a trade more than anticipating the trade coming to him saying fine, we'll give you, you know, 77 million over, over seven years. Um, doesn't seem like, like, that's the case. So, you know, they may want to keep him, but, you know, again, all the teams that I listed off before and I'm sure there are others would love to get their hands on, on Simon Edvinson, 23 year old first pair of defensemen, who is the, you know, headman without the off-six for now. Six, six, six. A guy, yeah. Just who wouldn't want him? I think all, all other 30 teams would love to get their hands on him. Um, obviously some can't because the cap, you know, restraints and things like that and he's going to command a hefty price. Um, but as far as I know, his mindset hasn't changed. He's still training, um, and bouncing around different parts of, of the US at the moment and the trade conversations continue. Okay. Do you feel like waiting into international politics? Because I want to talk about the, uh, double IHF and part of arbitration for a sport. Again, like I, I will, I will mention we need to be like in our, in our industry and I know that I certainly need to be, I am not a political commentator, um, not employed that way. Like, it's like, whenever there's lockouts, we all pretend that we know like, there were all amateur actuaries and we all understand the sophistications of pensions and, like, okay, I get that we all fake the functioning lockouts. This is not the sweet spot of the bat for us. These types of discussions are very nuanced, um, but this is one where everybody has an emotional reaction to it. And I'm not disqualifying those reactions. I think those are legitimate and need to be respected as well, um, double IHF, um, disappointed that the, uh, court of arbitration for sports is allowing the Russian ice hockey federation to enter Russian teams and all double IHF championships, whether that's the U-18s, whether that's the upcoming World Junior Hockey Championships in Alberta, whether it's the, uh, World Championships as well this year on the men's side in Germany, this covers off, of course, both the men's side and the women's side as well. I don't know. Brickie thinks that there's a number of lawyers, he said it's a good day for law firms today because there'll be an army of lawyers that are trying to figure out how to do something about this. We've seen other federations issue statements, um, of disappointment, um, there has been no outright to my knowledge since I got on the air. No, you can correct me if I'm wrong, Dave. No country has come out yet and said we will not play against Russia in any of these tournaments. Right. I haven't seen that yet. Yeah, I haven't seen it. Um, but let me just get your, your thoughts as someone that, that watches, follows international hockey, you've been around it for decades. Uh, what was your initial, initial thought when you, when you, when you saw this? It seemed like it was coming down in this direction in some capacity and I didn't know this was going to be outlined this way. Um, but, but it seemed like, and I know a lot of people at the NHL and NHLPA have been waiting to see if, if there was going to be some external, you know, uh, decision process here that would allow this to kind of happen. Now, you know, from an international perspective and purely on the hockey side, you know, do I want to see the Vasilevskis and Kuturovs and those guys battling it out against, you know, Canada and Finland and U S and Sweden and, and so on to find, yeah, it's a fan of the game specifically, I'd love to see it. Um, but I understand that there are a lot of other, you know, world related topics, um, and, and, and storylines that factor into all of this as well, obviously not blind to that, but just from the hockey Paris side of things that love to see, you know, Kuturov and, and McDavid going one-on-one, you know, trying to figure, you know, out for a medal or something like that. Um, but I don't, like, I, again, I think, I think the league and, and the NHLPA have been waiting to see when something like, come down, come down, come down. All right, we're going to try to get Dave back on, yeah, I'm going to look a couple of different issues, um, with that feed, you know, one of the things I was, I was mentioning this on, um, on, on, on, on DFO live today with Tyler E. Remtruck and Carter Hutton is that the first, the first event, um, on the double HF calendar that where now Russians can participate is the world junior hockey championships in Alberta. I don't need to remind any Canadians of this, but for our American viewers and listeners Just so you understand. And there's a lot of Ukrainians in Western Canada. This is certainly a sensitive issue internationally and in Canada, specifically, you know, I think it's the biggest diaspora of Ukrainian citizens, of Ukrainian people is in Canada. So this is going to be a very sensitive one for all the obvious reasons. I don't know how the visa issue would work. And maybe it's not even an issue at all. And I'm just musing about something that isn't an issue. But awarding visas to anyone from the Russian team could that be an issue for Canada? And if so, that would be a massive escalation and some would see, of course, as antagonistic behavior. And Dave, as I was just mentioning and thanks so much for hanging in there. Just a couple more things on this one. One of the things, more so for American viewers and listeners that may not understand so they call Canadians know where people are in this country and their heritage. It's a lot like bluntly and there's a lot of Ukrainian people in Western Canada. I get a mass population, you know, Saskatchewan, Alberta, like plenty. And the first event on the WHO calendar where Russia can compete against Canada, US, Finland, Sweden, go right down the list, Czechia is the world junior hockey championships. I don't know what Canada can do with a visa issue for anyone from the Russian team. Because Canada award visas now to Russian people entering Canada with that fall into the. Again, that's why I wanted to frame this by like, we are not experts in international politics. So with a grain of salt here, but just on first blush waking up and reading this this morning, this is fraught with a lot of, and again, very sensitive for the obvious reasons. Issues, and some that we're not even seeing right now too. Right. Yeah, there's certainly going to be more topics tied to this that are going to be risen pretty much against it, against participation. And I think that's one of the things that, I mean, the IAHF but also the NHL and the NHLPA have to be aware of and hockey Canada will have to be aware of with respect to the world juniors. And then of course the world cup of hockey being on North American side and Calgary and Edmonton. So there are a lot of, and I don't know if the Canadian government is going to be in a position or willing to be in a position to restrict access. But I'm sure that's going to be a topic of discussion to determine if that's an option or not, and then beyond those within the club, you know, the team itself outside of that, would there be restrictions tied to, you know, fan related attendance and things like that for me as it's, it's a complicated, I mean, ridiculously complicated matter. And we're just to just happen, you know, this morning, you know, we still need to understand all of the different, you know, dynamics that are tied to this before really determining what potential steps hockey Canada, the Canadian government, and those would take with respect to the world juniors. And then of course, how that then translates to what the NHL and NHLPA may do with respect to the, you know, the world cup of hockey. Do they allow participation in that? I think Bill Daley, I saw him quoted earlier today saying the deputy commissioner of the NHL saying, this is all fresh. We're still compiling all the information and then we're going to, you know, we'll tackle it once we have all the information and once we're educated on what just occurred today. A good way to frame it too. We'll see what happens here in the days and weeks. Last one for you back to the NHL here quickly. And everybody's favorite topic, May beliefs. As they head into the weekend with like no tagging space for next year and everything is dollar in, dollar out, no one with a term, where are they looking for as far as upgrades go? I mean, same, say, it's that blue line. Like they are, they're adamant about that. They've been on the search for that since the off season and escalated in training camp. And you know, John Chica came out this weekend, you know, he acknowledged that the blue line is an area that they want to improve on. And you know, they're not just looking for a little band-aid solution here. They're looking for a permanent piece on that blue line, which to me signifies another impactful trade with the money situation. And this, and this, there may be a trickle effect here in this, in this situation where they're moving out a couple of pieces to free up additional money beyond this season and then getting to the big meet and of everything in terms of whatever this big defense spin is that they're trying to bring in, but it also signifies to me that they are actively looking to make and pull the trigger on another big deal, which Chica also, when he was asked by you, I can't remember whom, are you still willing or are not still, excuse me, are you willing to pull off another blockbuster like the Nice Marchenko deal? And he just bluntly said, yes. So I'm curious as to where that goes, I'm curious as to what this means for Morgan Riley. Even though he's got full say in all of this, that was an environment that was explored over the summer, which he was well aware of. And I'm curious to see what assets they may have available. Like if, I know they poked on Edmondson, we've talked about this before. But if they go in that direction, it's gonna cost you Easton Cowan Plus and they've talked very highly. Going away. Oh yeah. Yeah, of Cowan. And the fan bases, every time this is brought up, Lee fans lose their minds. I also don't think they fully understand what Edmondson is as a player, but nevertheless, it's gonna be interesting to see what direction they go in because this has been an active search and it continues to be an active search for the lease. Absolutely. You're the best. Thanks as always for stopping by. Enjoy what should be an intriguing weekend, both in NHL action and AAHF off-ice drama. So I'm glad to have you aboard to document all of it and try to squeeze this with fun this weekend. Okay? I'll try my best. You too, dude. Thanks, pal. I can't get out my head, lost all ambitions day to day, 'cause you can call it all right. I went to the dark man, he don't give me little medicine, I'm like nothing, that's fine. I'm not against those madness, but you, it's me myself and how this gonna be fixed in my mind. I'm on the back of it, I turned on the music, I feel on the back of it, I feel no need to see it. It's enough, I don't think it's gonna try to do this yet.