On the Sheet: Brian Burke on Dylan Larkin, the CAS Ruling on Russia, and More

Good afternoon, by the way, Brooke, you're good to see again. There's another chapter in the Dylan Larkin saga. So now it is the withholding services part of the play. There's a lot, and Sean Horcoff had his press conference yesterday and talked about it's difficult to make a deal given the narrow parameters of the teams that he's allowed to negotiate with, etc. Before we get into any of the specifics here, what did you think of yesterday? The decision by Dylan Larkin and his camp at CAA. Well, I think it takes all the heat off Sean and Horcoff. Now people expect the lengthy delay. It won't be critical of that. He's bought, Sean has bought the Red Wing's time, in my view, by doing this by Dylan Larkin walking out, but I also am cautious because, like with Hellabuck, I worried if there's some unsolved part of the story that he was promised to do something by a certain date or before we go too hard on Dylan Larkin, let's make sure we know all the facts. If there's nothing like that, then this is outrageous and to the sake is now Sean Horcoff can take as long as he wants. So this is the point that I'm so glad you mentioned. This is the point that I've been trying to make since the news broke yesterday, and that is, I'm not sure we're getting enough water from the well to the village on this story quite yet. It still feels like much like the Conor Hellabuck situation, that hasn't been fully explained yet. There's a piece that's missing, and I feel that there's a piece that's missing here with the Dylan Larkin situation, and let me sort of couch it this way, I'm curious your thoughts on this one. This isn't a new development with Dylan Larkin and Detroit. This goes back a couple of years. I believe it goes back to the dueling press conferences where Dylan Larkin said publicly we wanted more from our GM at Trade Deadline, and Iseman, I'm paraphrasing here, Iseman essentially said the team didn't deserve trades. The team wasn't good enough, I wasn't going to spend any capital, I wasn't going to improve this team. I believe that that was probably where the relationship soured. Fast forward to this summer, they dithered making the GM change. The trade, dithered getting Sean Horcoff in as an interim, it seemed like they had one plan and one person in mind, when that didn't work, they had no plan B, and subsequent Sean Horcoff has been trying to make trades. But did it not seem to you when you read the Pat Brisson statement, which is Dylan's had enough of the situation we believe he's been very professional and cooperative throughout this process, when I saw that, and those words are very specific from Pat, I said to myself is this the Dylan Larkin camp trying to say we don't think that the Detroit Red Wings are behaving here with good intentions or behaving in this situation in good faith. Do you see that way? Yes, I do. It very well could be that way. That truth will come out about this at some point, but I'm not sure if it's that they've had enough, and he's been cooperating in good faith, it's Sean Horcoff has in their camp as they have been able to make a good deal, and he's had enough. Or it sounds more like there's an untold part of the story where he gave them a deadline or said I'll give you a certain amount of time to work it out. He improved his list of teams and nothing happened. So we'll find out more, but if it's just, if it's just Dylan Larkin getting impatient than the hell with them because he can take it, now the Detroit can take as long as they want. You know, in a situation like this, you're always looking for, for pressure points, and to your point, a lot of the pressure now is off of Sean Horcoff here. You've like, listen, the great thing about having you on Brian is you've worked from all these different angles. You've been a player, you've been an agent, you've been a general manager, you understand all the dynamics and all the motivations from every single level here. Where do you think this goes? Like, at the one hand, there's Dylan Larkin who's with holding services. He's not getting paid. The Detroit Red Rings don't have the player, but also there's the reality of two things. One, loss is piling up. I know they beat the hawks yesterday, but don't feel special. And also, the message to the marketplace, right, like players are watching. This is my point. Players are watching this situation with the Red Wings and how they're dealing with Dylan Larkin. So I don't think it's as simple as Let him rot. I think there's a lot of different layers to it. So how does this go now? He's a popular player. I don't think it's changed to not let him rot, but take your time now. So you can't, it's impossible to make a good deal with a player as you under a dress. Like Shell, the Chevy just made a good deal considering where he was. It's not a good deal when you look at it objectively, not a good deal at all. But it's a good deal considering what the office he was getting, which are garbage. And where they were at this time and lost his piling up like you say. So he made the best deal he could. I think Sean has more time now. He doesn't have to worry about, he doesn't have to pay him. There's no losses piling up on a website. And he can wait now for the right deal. We'll make a better deal, I predict that he would have a week ago. So that's a tactical mistake, unless, by that person, unless, like you said, there's more to this. You know, I can't see, like the one thing about Pat Reeson, people I think can quibble about the statement and how he framed Dylan Larkin here. But I always remind people about veteran agents, like you don't get this deep into a career by behaving frivolously. Like Pat Reeson doesn't put that out as a knee jerk. Like that's why, to your point, there is, there is a public piece that's, that's missing here. Like they always say they're might, we think they're might be, well, they look like they're might be. Yeah. Like I, I fully do believe that there is, because even like Larkin himself still hasn't said why he asked for the trade. I thought that was very smartly strategic on his part. As someone in the media, like, okay, well, you want more information, but I do understand from Larkin's point of view, not putting out the reason he asked for the trade. But also to Reeson's point, like every step of the way here, like he went to training camp. Even though he was injured, I couldn't play those first couple of games. He went to opening night and stood on the bench and took the daggers and took the boots. Like he didn't have to do that. He got in the lineup and he played. Now Horkov, a couple of things in the press are yesterday. One of the things that Horkov said is his demeanor changed in the last little while, specifically the last few days he said before, before yesterday, and he said essentially Larkin left to explain why. Is that a point that you think we should be dwelling on, that he noticed or noticed enough that he would make public that something about Larkin changed in the last little while? Yeah, I think it was very telling that he made that comment because this is a real indicator to the fans, I think, that something changed and it wasn't Detroit. Something changed in Dillon Larkin's mind is demeanor or is outlook changed at that point from that point forward, it became difficult for anything to happen. So I think it was a telling point, but again, Papperson is not a liar, he's an honest guy, so Shawn Horkov, but in any case, every divorce that the lawyers will tell you, there's three sides to every story, the her side, his side and the truth, and somewhere in between, no one lying, but someone coloring it the way they want, it's going to color it the way they want. And that's not, we'll find out the truth down the road, but not right away in the meantime. In my mind, Shawn Horkov can say, "Whoo, what a load off." Well here's one of the things that I'm sure people have talked to you about this or mentioned this to you. This is going to be, if he can get it over the finish line, Shawn Horkov's first trade. And you've told me and us here on the show, your trade, the Bobby Hole League deal, Shawn Burke, Eric Weinrich, and how stressful that was for you as a young general manager. Here's Shawn Horkov, not as the general manager, period, but as the interim general manager. Now he has been able to do business with Alex to blanket and those are big piece of business. The Larkin trade is different. One of the things that I wonder about Burke he is, and this is where you can talk about the dynamic between owner and interim general manager. I really do wonder how much autonomy Shawn Horkov has in making a deal, so it'll be his first deal that will reset the future of the Detroit Red Wings for how long, ten years, perhaps. Is this a situation where I send you what I'm asking you, do you think Shawn Horkov has both hands on the wheel here or does it also need to get approved upstairs by Chris Litch? Well, historically it had two hands on the wheel. That's a pretty big trade needs to be approved by the owner, don't kid yourself. One of them teams where I had total autonomy, I still had a bus being an owner, had to run it by, like when I traded Bobby Holiq, I ran it by the owner at the time. That's the owner's right at that point, so he's going to have to run the steel Shawn Horkov, whatever he does with the Larkin, and I have to go to Chris Litch and say here's what I want to do. The issue is if he says no, with the owner says no to you at that point, then you better [BLANK_AUDIO] looking for a new job. He's doing a longer than GM in effect. Right. Well, and that's what I wonder about too. Like if you're Sean Horcoff, and let's say you're talking to Chris Patrick at Washington, and you've put together what you think is a fair deal on both sides. And the owner says, yeah, whether it's, I don't think that's enough, or we still want to see Larkin sweat a little bit here. What do you do if you're Sean Horcoff and have to go back to Chris Patrick? And essentially say, my owner says no. Well, that's happened to me before. Again, I have too many stories about this. I got shot down once on a deal. It's a training training training for Keith Kitschak. And Henry sent me. Oh, it was a new owner. And he said to me, Brian, he said, you can't do this deal because it puts us over a budget. It devilates our budget. He said, I'll never tell you to do a deal or not do a deal based on talent. But I have final say on the budget. I'm not approving this deal. I said, perfect. I call Larry Paul instead of deals up. So it's, um, it is that way. The owner always has the right to say no, but if he says no or talent, he's making a judgment on your trade, yeah, he better start looking for work. But I know Chris, oh, it's a little bit. I don't know for years. I think you understand how this business works very well. It could be a good owner. Um, anything I want to move on to this double, IHF situation here, but anything else on the, on the Larkin file that you, that you want to share or you think that we sort of, that we've missed here. No, I think we just beat it. That. Thank you. Okay. So we'll leave that horse alone now at this point. Um, okay. To, uh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, listen, absolutely. This, this, this, this, this one's a, this one's a massive one. Um, and I think we all understand the gravity involved. Like, let me, let me frame it to you this way then. One of the things that whenever I do interviews with, with other, uh, with other outlets, one of the things that I continually get asked as I'm sure you are getting asked to is, is this the new way? Are we going to start to see more players, even if they're under contract, you know, ask their, not just ask for a trade, but withhold service. Now you went through this with Pavel Burre, uh, Chicago went through this with Steve Larmer. Ottawa went through this with Alexia Shed. It does happen. It doesn't happen very often, but now we've got two. And I know that two isn't a pattern, okay? Like two is just a coincidence, maybe. So we got Halibuk and we've got Dylan Larkin. Do you see more of this coming in? Yeah, both, both Kachak brothers got Quinn Hughes. There's more than one or two guys. It's, these are the two severe extreme cases, but this is a new thing. It isn't a thing. The players have always had a lot of power with that. More and all than they ever had before. Unfortunately, it appears to be a border issue as well, which is really a shame because that leaves us to the biggest advantage in Canada if it continues. And I think Gary Bedman's suggestion that we look at this from a clock of bargaining standpoint and say, okay, if you ask for a no trade and you can't then ask for a trade later without waving in an old trade completely or for 10 teams or whatever. So I think it has to be addressed. I don't think it's a small thing. I don't think it's two cases. I think it's a half dozen and Quinn Hughes may be the next one. Well, by the way, what did you think of his return and the reception in Vancouver? From last week, I was, I was watching hockey last night. I did not see the return of Vancouver. That way it was, it was interesting because we thought it would be venomous last Sunday when he returned, but it was, it was mixed. Brady got the venom. Brady got the venom. And I think we're all expecting Connor Halibuk to get it on November 10th in Winnipeg. Well, by the way, here's the interesting thing about, about that burky. Maybe you can find an example like I couldn't. We've seen players return and get booed soundly. Brady could chuck. We've seen defense been returned and get booed most recently Sunday, even though it wasn't overwhelming was still there in Quinn Hughes. Golly's around the ice for 60 minutes. If Winnipeg fans are going to let Halibuk have it, he's on the ice for the whole game. Quinn Hughes comes on and he goes off. You get a break. Brady could chuck comes on and he goes off. You get a break as a fan. We've never seen this with a gold tender. Have we? There'll just be one that pucks in his end though. They won't be going to win Winnipeg's attack. You sure? You really? You know, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I like this. I don't like players getting booed, but I love the passion our fans have, especially Canadian fans. They're going to boo him for the rest of his life. You know, one uncomfortable conversation about him that we had last week, which was really sensitive to Winnipeg fans. And boy, did I ever hear about it on Twitter is the uncomfortable truth that one day, this guy's getting his jersey retired in Winnipeg, no? Now with Mark Chippman being the owner, I don't think. But isn't that listen, Fedorov got his jersey retired and still the illitch family? Like, doesn't time, isn't time supposed to heal all these things, Bricky? I felt I was on a third team after that though, wasn't he? Well, I mean, that was, there was two things. There was a Kermano's offer sheet, but that was like a comp you wear, little scissors issues. That was more than just hockey, but him going to Anaheim taking a lesser deal than what the trite had on the table. That was the one that really burned the trite. And we would always ask, like, he's in the hall of fame. Like, why didn't they're not retiring the jersey? And finally, they were landed. Did not see something like that with Winnipeg and hell. I know we're talking like years down the road here, Bricky, but it's uncomfortable. But he was the best goalie the franchise ever had. It was and probably should be recognized. But I'm not sure it's appropriate to have a discussion right today, Jeff. Yeah, no, I like making things really uncomfortable for people. And here's another conversation about that, Bricky. The double IHF disappointed today as a court of arbitration for sport is allowing the Russian ice hockey federation to enter a Russian team in all double IHF championships with immediate effect is the quote. So the first test ground will be the world juniors in in five weeks. And then the world championships in Germany. This is both men's and women's side of things as well. We've seen, we've seen various hockey federations express, you know, disappointment, but you know, understand the the CAS's decision and respect it. I know Finland said, you know, we understand the double IHF's position. And for any players that don't feel comfortable playing against Russia, we understand, essentially, we'll give them a pass like over the lot. Since this ban has started, like initially, you know, Finland and Sweden and Czechia, et cetera, all over specifically in Europe. There was a lot of, you know, like we will never do this. We won't play against Russia. This is wrong. And now it seems as if there's a lot of hockey federations that are sort of soft pedaling this one or going in the shallow end instead of jumping into that into the deep end here. And the way that I talked to one person this morning who framed it like this, he said, look, if you're going to, if you're going to bark like a dog, you can't piss like a puppy. Like there was a lot of saber rattling about you, but there's no way, like there's no hand and now all of a sudden things seem to have changed at least a little bit. What are your thoughts on this one? It's a shame. I think it's a disgrace. The fact that Russians were banned from an international competition was for a very specific reason, which has not abated. The warfare has not let up. The invasion has not been taken out. The siege has not been lifted. It's not time to fix this. It's a very wrong decision. I think it's great that the pushback has been instantaneous involved, valuable. What do you think this heads? Because the first, like the first testing round is going to be here in Canada in Alberta. Again, I am not a political commentator. I don't know whether Canada could refuse to issue visas to Russian athletes to compete. I don't know the answer to that. If that's even anything that would be on the table, which would probably incite and inflame everything and take it to a whole different level, but I don't know what to expect here, Birky. But the first test is going to be here in Canada. Right now, you have lawyers scrambling all over the planet. It's a great day for law firms, because lawyers all over the planet are scrambling and figure out how they can block this in Canada or anywhere else. But I don't think they can. If they said the rulings filing cannot be appealed, I don't know what lovers or what recourse you have as a federation. Well, all the federation's could do is refuse to play. But then that brings up, I spoke to someone this morning said, that brings up a whole other issue. Like, let's say Finland refuses to play. Because they're right to participate internationally. But then the issue then becomes the double iChef would have to suspend those federation. And then what does it look like? Sorry, that's what I was saying, yes. So Finland says we're not going to play. They're right to compete internationally. It can be suspended as well. So my guess is that they follow suit. But trust me, lawyers all over the planet are scrambling to figure out a way to stop this. Interesting times. Okay, 2 a.m. And to a funner topic, you, so Luke Shen was on Leafs Morning Take today with Nick Alberga and J. Roe cell. And the topic of you and the Hall of Fame came up and it turns out that you are one of Luke's favorite things to talk about. Let's listen and watch Luke Shen talk about Burkey from Leafs Morning Take today. He's one of my favorite GMs that I've ever had. So I got dropped by Cliff Fletcher, Burkey came in and I want to say half way through my rookie year sort of obviously we all kind of saw the reputation and persona he carried as far as just no BS about and everything is pretty black and white and he was like players too. He just, he told the like it was, I remember him coming in, I was from then I think in my second year and the team wasn't doing well, there was a bunch of trade rumors and I think he went out in the media and said like obviously some guys aren't going to get traded. There's some guys that aren't untouchables but he comes into the room and you know goes around he's like, hey, and he's, you know, I'm 19 years old and just cut you off there and he's like, and you know what, Shunner, hey, if someone calls someone else before and asks me for a first round, for first rounders, guess what, you'll be on an airplane tomorrow too. Like it just goes around and just tells it like it was, hey, like it is, like it is. You remember to tell Luke Shen that, hey, I love you kid but someone asked me for first rounders, I'll drive you to the airport. Yeah, exactly. That was the first time I said that was with Todd Bertuzzi and this is a lot of trade rumors I could call him instead of Todd, I'm not talking to a single team about you, not trying to trade you. So relax. Stop with it on clear. Wife of the time is listening to all the Scarlett stop, don't pay any attention to it. So I have to add the disclaimer, so I want to ask me two first round fish for you, you want to play inside. I guess that was a sort of standard speech around trade deadline. Like how many times, and by the way, just before I ask you a question on it, quick thought on Luke Shen. I know that, and you've talked about, you know, trading him at the Pittsburgh draft after you drafted Morgan Riley and how difficult that was for you. But just, can you share a couple of thoughts about Luke Shen? Well, I love Luke, Luke's a great guy, he's a wonderful teammate, he's a great, wonderful one. I took him to Afghanistan. I said, if you're, we're doing Luke's troops, we started Luke's troops together. I paid for half the tickets and Luke paid for half the tickets. And we didn't over to be successful or not, so I said, like, let me take half the rest with you. It was a wildly successful, I still do it at Leap Games, obviously, it'll call Luke's troops anymore. But Luke Shen went to Afghanistan with me. I said, if you're going to be an advocate for the soldiers, you've got to get some sand of your boots. So we went to Afghanistan together. I remember four o'clock in the morning, so I'll mess up with time zones over there. Four o'clock in the morning, I went by the gym, I couldn't sleep, I went to the gym, Luke's in there left him with the soldiers. Oh wow. He's gone. Oh wow. You should see, these guys were so pleased, so proud. These Canadian soldiers were fighting in Afghanistan, risking their lives and they're excited to be lifting weights with Luke Shen, so he's a great guy. But two things. I remember the Bobby Holiq, Bobby Holiq, there's lots of trade rumors in Hartford. I called him and I said, Bobby, I have not spoken on one team about trading him, not one. I said, so forget about it. Don't worry about it. And next day, Lou Mammara will call me from New Jersey. He'd been seeing these rumors. He said, there are only two to the rumors. We had a deal put together in two days. And so I said to Bobby, I saw Bobby at a game in Windsor years later, said Bobby, there was no BS, you know, he said, I thought it was really weird. Two days after he promised me not to trade me a pedal, he said, I thought it was really straight, that was a God's truth. So you can't, you have to be careful how much you, I try to reassure players all the time. Don't listen to white noise, you're not on the market. But I said, I have to put the disclaimer in someone out from the right dealer out of planes. Right. Makes a lot of sense. All right. The ninth is on the horizon, I'll keep asking the same question, is the speech done yet? Almost. How far into overtime are you going to go and are they going to have to bring the big hook out? No, I'm going to try and what they do. I mean, I'm so honored by all of a sudden, just saying thank you. It's a problem of thanking so many people. So the problem, I've told them, I can observe whatever limits they put on me. I might go over by 10 seconds, but I'm not going to blow it away. Like, US hockey offense, they told me I had 10 minutes, I won 18, because no clock that I could see. It was totally, I thought I was still on time, but I felt badly about that. So no, I'm going to, they told me six minutes, I'm going to try and do six minutes. Respectfully on behalf of all of us on this side, no one believes you go in the six. No one who knows anything about Brian Burke thinks he's going to limit it to six, but we shall see. We saw some time before we get there. Thanks as always, Burke. For sharing your expertise. Always appreciate it. We'll chat soon. Thanks, yeah. [Music] [Music]