On Gaza and Humanity with Mosab Abu Toha

hey everybody it's me john stewart the we're doing the weekly show podcast it is wednesday august 6th tomorrow is thursday i guess august 7th i the summer's supposed to be quiet i think that's the way things are are supposed to go but it hasn't really worked out that way i'm not going to talk actually too much moving into this because we have a conversation today that i think is uh i think it's an important one i think it's a sobering one certainly and so i just kind of want to uh get into it i've had conversations over these past uh many months with jewish people and uh arab people and palestinian people but i really wanted to to give some time to someone from gaza someone whose family is there who you know who's been in the military for a long time and who's been in the military for a long time and who's been in the military for a long time and who's been in the military for a long who uh was born there grew up there uh and and and here that perspective one that i don't necessarily uh see a lot of so uh i'm just going to get in he's a an incredible writer uh an incredible poet winner of a pulitzer for his writing and uh i'm just going to introduce him his name is mosab abu toha he's a he's a poet he's an author and uh i want to get him in right now uh all right folks so we're going to talk obviously this is an incredibly fraught situation and a difficult one uh but i became aware of a gentleman whose writings uh i quite admired as a an author and a poet his name is mosab abu toha uh he joins us now mosab uh thank you so much for for joining us and taking some time today thank you so much john looking forward to the conversation i wanted to ask you just for people that are listening at home just a brief you were you were born in gaza is that correct yes i was born in gaza in a refugee camp called shatik refugee camp okay um the same refugee camp where my father was born in 1962 and the same refugee camp where my grandparents lived until they died after they were expelled from their homes in 1948 from yaffa so that's where i was born this was a refugee camp that became more of a a city exactly and this is something that is you know outrageous when you see people you know commenting on some of the photos we post of the refugee camps whether it's the jabali refugee camp in north gaza where my mother was born um they say oh this is this is a refugee camp there are no tents but i mean come on it's 77 years of occupation and these people have been living in i mean you expect people to live in tents for 77 years this is really i mean this is sadistic you know the way that they you know make fun of you know our lives or the terms that we are using still using for the places where we were living supposedly you know it was you know our refugee camp is a temporary place but it's been 77 years and there are eight refugee camps in gaza john there is a refugee camp yeah there are the refugee camp where i was born also my father was born there there is the jabali refugee camp in north gaza there is a one one of rafah that israel erased and there is one in nusairat you hear this this the name of the city nusairat uh murej maghazi khan yunis there are refugee camps in these areas and israel decimated as far as i know two of them uh the jabali refugee camp where my mother was born and also my two grand maternal grandparents were born they were they were not born um during the nakba my maternal grandparents so they were born in the jabali refugee camp and and and i was sheltering in the jabali refugee camp before i had to leave gaza in december 2023 and i look at videos john nothing is left of the refugee camp and the same thing with rafah they decimated the whole city including the refugee camp there and if you want to talk more about this it is heartbreaking for me as a palestinian to realize that not only did the world watch israel turn 70 currently of the population into refugees and their descendants but also has carried out a military campaign and a genocidal one in which they erased two refugee camps so they are even making the refugee uh you know experience for the palestinians a hellish experience not only are they made refugees not only are they killed there are some nakba nakba survivors by the way john right and when you refer to the nakba i just want people to understand what he's referring to is in 1948 when the uh israeli state was formed uh palestinians moved off of the land that they had been living in they refer to it as the nakba yes the disaster or the catastrophe yeah they did not move out out of there they were expelled that's because because you know the israelis were using euphemism there they would say oh we are going to transfer these people or they you know they're the arab countries that invaded israel at that time they asked them to to leave but i mean come on even if even if these people moved out of their cities like my grandparents in 1948 i mean if i if i live in a country where i'm not a refugee i'm not a refugee i'm not a refugee i'm not going to shift a place you know my city or my house you know because there is there is an armed conflict there is there is there is a lot of going on of course i'm under the impression that i would be able to go back but that did not happen for 77 years my grandparents john died in the refugee camp and they were buried in a cemetery close to the refugee camp and that cemetery was destroyed by israel and most of and i apologize you know so i've been raised on a different narrative right yeah and so when we approach these things from the those two different perspectives that's why you know what i wanted to talk to you about was that idea of what are the stories and the narratives that that you wanted to express for that you know i spent some time in jordan and there were in jordan an enormous amount of palestinian refugee camps that had as as you said turned into cities but they are still not really jordanians they're palestinian refugees there's also you know palestinian camps in lebanon there were some i guess in syria in syria how many different enclaves this all stemmed from those in 48 being driven from that area through the formation of that state would that be accurate yeah so john you know i mean i'm listening to you and you are 100 accurate on that and tears are not on my eyes they are inside of my body as i'm listening to you it is indeed the case of my my some of my mother's uncles who are living currently in jordan in refugee camps and they are not citizens of jordan and sometimes you think of this as a bad thing and sometimes you know oh no it's a good thing because these are refugees and they have the right to return so indeed there are there are refugee camps in five areas after 1948 there is there are eight refugee camps in in the government and there are eight refugee camps in the government and there are more refugee camps in the west bank and there are refugee camps in syria and jordan and lebanon and even i think i think that the refugee camps in lebanon are the worst of all really if you look at videos yeah if you look at videos people are living in something like you know slums you know people i mean they don't have electricity they don't have enough water they are struggling maybe similar to what people are struggling in gaza they don't have they don't have the same rights as other lebanese people they are not citizens in those they're not citizens of lebanon they're not citizens of jordan in jordan by the way yeah jordan i visited jordan john i'm gonna tell you a lot of things okay in jordan i visited jordan for the first time in my life in 2019 and you know why because in 2019 i became a scholar at risk a scholar at risk at harvard university and i i tried to apply for a permit to go to the american embassy in jerusalem which is about 40 miles away from where i lived in gaza and i had to apply for a permit and the israelis denied me a permit to go to jordan to go to jerusalem so i had to move the visa interview to jordan which is about four hours by car from gaza if i was allowed to go through israel and i was denied that permit so i had to go to egypt and then from egypt to fly to jordan and then that was in 2019 it was the first time for me since 2000 to see my aunt alia abu toha who was married to her to my father's cousin and lived in the in in jordan so it was the first time for me to see my aunt in 19 years at the time and then i go into the refugee camp where one of two of my mother's uncles lived after 1967 and i met my mother's cousins and they told me they don't have a jordanian national number this means that they cannot apply for jobs there they could work here and there but sometimes when one of my one of my mother's cousins told me that he he proposed to a girl a jordanian girl and when their families knew that he doesn't have a jordanian national number it didn't work right most stop that's that's uh that's something that i think is people might not realize yeah you know many people who live in these refugee camps have relatives that are very very close by to them but they are unable to get to them there is families have been split uh throughout this give us a sense because you said something i thought very interesting which was i went to go to jordan i i'm a scholar at risk from harvard university and you wanted to go there it's how far did you say it was 40 miles From Gaza, where I lived in Beit Lahiya, because I was born in the refugee camp then. Right. Gaza is very small. Even if I move to another part, it's maybe ten miles, five miles away from where I was born. Okay. So I was born in the refugee camp. Then at the age of eight in 2000, we moved to live in Beit Lahiya, where some of my family were killed, some of my relatives were killed. But anyway, this is not the story right now. So I applied for a permit to attend my appointment at the American embassy in Jerusalem, because there is no American embassy or any other embassies in Gaza. So the closest embassy was in Jerusalem. So I applied for a permit. So I was denied that permit. Okay. From where I lived in Beit Lahiya to Jerusalem, 70 kilometers, which is 40 miles, which is about, you know, it's about an hour by car. Sure. You know? When you travel, it's like. Okay. Yeah. Except if it's in New York City. Right? It would be long. Right. About three hours by car in New York City. But that makes sense. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. So, I mean, I was denied that permit. And by the way, John. Denied. Now, did they mention, Mossab. Security reasons. When you get a denial. Oh, security reasons. Security reasons. They don't tell you, oh, what is your. What is the accusation? They don't want poets. They don't want a poet to go through. Yeah. It's not only me. It's most of the people in Gaza. They say security reasons. Security. But they don't tell you what your security is. Security background is what is the problem with you. They don't tell you at all. Okay. So, John, what happened. What happened, by the way, is that I would be taken on a bus from the Ares crossing, which is between Gaza and Israel. Okay. I would be taken on a bus along with a Palestinian security man. He would be keeping our passports as travelers from Gaza to Jerusalem. He would be keeping our passports with him. And the bus would drop us off at the gate of the embassy, we would go inside the embassy and attend the interview, and then we'd go to the same bus and go back to Gaza the same day. This is if you had been approved. If you had been approved. Exactly. That's how the trip would have gone. Okay. Exactly. So, now you haven't been approved. What do you do? So, yeah, I had to apply for another appointment at the American embassy in Jordan, and I applied again. Okay. I said, "Okay, maybe Israel doesn't want me to go to Jerusalem." Okay. Maybe I would do something wrong there. I'll go to a different American embassy. Yeah. So, I applied for a new permit, and that same trip would take me from Gaza, from the Ares to Jordan to the Olympi Bridge on the other side of the country. Right. And again, the permit was denied. They did not approve my permit. Is that another security reason? So, I have to apply for a permit to go to leave Gaza for Egypt, and from there, fly from Cairo to Amman in Jordan. By the way, I was 27 years old, and that was the first time in my life I left Gaza. The first time at 27. Your entire life is spent in an area. Give people a sense of the size. Yes. Gaza is 141 square miles. It's very small. And there's two million people living there. Yeah. Okay. I used to teach in Beit Hanoun, which is another city that Israel decimated. You look at videos. And by the way, John, we'll talk about this later. It's not only the Palestinians who have been documenting this genocide. It's even the Israelis who are. Yeah. They're documenting the destruction from the drones. They are showing you, "Okay, look at Beit Hanoun. It's decimated." Right. Look at Khuzaa, east of Khan Yunis. It's decimated. It's not only that we are saying Israel destroyed everything, and then they would say. The Israelis would say, "Oh, it's Hasbara. It's propaganda. This is. " But no, they themselves are documenting all these things. Right. So, I used to teach in Beit Hanoun. I know that city very well. So, if you want to travel from north Gaza, Beit Hanoun, to south Gaza, which is Rafah, it wouldn't take you more than 40 minutes, by the way. 40 minutes by car. This is from north to south. And that's the top, the northern part of Gaza to the southern part of Gaza, 40-minute drive. 40, yeah, yeah. That's it. I traveled from Beit Hanoun to Rafah, to the border crossing when I traveled. And Rafah is the border crossing that's around the Egypt area, just to give people a sense of the geography. Exactly. Yeah. And then if you want to, in some areas, if you want to travel, you can look at the map of the Gaza Strip. If you want to travel from east Gaza, for example, neighborhood, which is also decimated, and you wanted to go to the beach west of Gaza. Sometimes, maybe it would take you 15 minutes. It's that narrow. It's a very thin strip. Very thin. It's very narrow. Okay. All right. Exactly. So this is the Gaza we lived in. And you know, despite the sea- And you lived there for your whole life, up until '27. I lived there my whole life. And by the way, in one of my poems, my dreams as a child, I still, now, until now, I'm 32 years old, I still have dreams of seeing the refugee camp from a window on a plane. I've never seen Gaza or Palestine from a window on a plane. I've never seen my country from above. And by the way, there is no airport in Gaza, John. There is no airport in Gaza. There is no airport in the West Bank. Israel destroyed the only airport that Gaza had, which was built in 1999. It destroyed it in 2000, 2001. So that was the only time Palestinians had an airport. It was in Gaza. Israel destroyed it. So when you were born there, Israel still had settlements. Yes. Within Gaza. This is before, I guess, 2006, when they- 2005, they left. They say they gave up Gaza. 2005, they left Gaza. It is very ridiculous, John, and you mentioned that, it is very ridiculous to say, we gave up Gaza. We gave the Palestinians a chance to, come on, what chance did you give the Palestinians to build a state? You did not allow the Palestinians to build an airport. They did not allow us to build a seaport. They kept the border crossings closed. So what kind of state were we supposed to build when Gaza has been under siege, even before Hamas took control of Gaza? So this is one of the biggest lies that Israelis and some of their allies keep repeating. Oh, we gave them a chance. We left Gaza in 2005, but they built tunnels instead. But come on, even before Hamas existed, even before Hamas took power in 2006, 2007, Israel did not allow us, again, to build airports, seaports. They did not allow us to- Even, by the way, this is shocking, maybe, to you, as someone who's living in America. We have 5G, right? Mobile connection. Cell phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cell phone. Do you know what kind of connection we have in Gaza? 2G. I didn't even know 2G. What is that? That's a wire with two paper cups? Yes. You can't browse the internet. You can't rely on it. 2G, Israel has been not approving the Palestinians to get better than 2G. But can you remember a time when there was an optimism within your life or your community, where you thought, "Oh, maybe now the boot is being lifted. Maybe there will be an opportunity?" Or has it always. Within your family, when you talk about the future. I mean, you're a poet, you write these beautiful poems. I'm curious. Where that desire to dream came from. Does it come from the feeling of a certain hopelessness? Or were you, in any of these moments, thinking that the tide had turned for your people and your family? Thank you so much. This is really a very great question. In fact, this is devastating for me to think about because as a poet, I wrote about my experience. When I was being wounded in an airstrike in 2009, I was 16 years old, and two pieces of shrapnel stayed in my body, and they didn't know that at the time. I was wounded in January 2009, and the two pieces of shrapnel stayed in my head and neck until August. I had to go through- How were you wounded, Mosav, if you don't mind me asking? So I was. It was December 2008, in January 2009, Israel attacked Gaza for I think 22 days. That was one of the biggest attacks on Gaza by Israel. At the time, I was going back from school. I wrote about that in one of my poems. It's called "The Wounds." I wrote that poem, and I documented everything, and I was shocked that I could remember everything. I wrote that poem just three years ago, and I remembered everything that happened in 2009. Right. Details. Even I remember the smell of the person who was put next to me in the ambulance. He didn't have a head at the time. Oh, my lord. So I remember the smell. When I started writing, I remember the smell. I remember the sounds. I remember the blood dripping from my forehead here. If you can see here, there is a piece of shrapnel here. Oh, god, yeah. No, I can't see that. So, John, I was walking in the street in January. I think it was January 19. So I was walking in the street to buy some eggs and bread for my sisters, my little sisters, because we were fasting on that day. So I was walking in the street, and there was a group of people gathering in the street on Al Jala Street. This is one of the most famous streets in Gaza. It's called Al Jala. It connects some parts of Beit Lahir with Gaza City. So I saw that there is a gathering of people in the street, and I stopped just to see what's happening. Later, later, later, I realized that there was an airstrike that killed two people, and people were gathering, scared to go down in the street to move the bodies, put them in an ambulance. So people were scared to go, because Israel might have stricken again. So I was waiting with those people, trying to see, and then there was an airstrike in the middle of the street. And I saw the people in the middle of the gathering. Seven people were killed. All right. Seven people were killed, and I was one of the people who were wounded. And I remember exactly that everyone fell down after the airstrike and I was the only one maybe who remained standing and blood was dripping from my forehead and there was some pain in my neck. Maybe you could see some, you know, the piece, oh, here. - Right, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. - Here. - I can see, yeah. - So my brother later told me, Mus'ab, there is a hole in your neck, I couldn't see it. So Mus'ab, there is a hole and you could, you could fit your finger, your index finger in it. - Your brother is with you, you guys were together? - No, later when they came to the hospital. - Oh, later when he saw you in the hospital, okay. - Yeah, I was in the cot and my brother and father came to the hospital and they told me, Mus'ab, we missed you, we thought you were killed, we started looking for you in the morgue, right? But they found me on the cot and I was, you know, relatively, you know, good compared to other people who lost limbs, et cetera. So John, for someone like me, you know, to watch a genocide and also documented, I am not only a witness, I am a victim myself. - Right. - I was about - Right. - to watch a genocide and also documented, to be killed in that air strike. - Right. - And it happened many times that there were air strikes just close to me later, after 2009, I survived many air strikes. Our house was bombed in October, 2023, just two weeks after we lifted. And we are lucky because no one was inside the house. Otherwise, my whole family, about 30 people, about 20 of them were children. Some of them were just months old. My niece, who is now a year and a half living in a tent, right now, so I survived many things, John. So whatever I'm talking about, it comes from an experience of someone who was born in a refugee camp and who survived death many times and who lost family members, first cousins with whole families. So you asked me about hope. So I'm just telling you this just to give you a sense that it is impossible to feel hope, but the only hope for me as a human being, as a poet, as an author, is when I share these words, you know, these stories, these experiences with people like you, and people outside of Gaza who have never been allowed to go to Gaza. So that is the sense of hope that I get is when I share the stories with people, because I want people to know what life is like in Gaza, in the hope that people will stop there. I mean, when I wrote a poem about my wounds in 2009, so I didn't write it for you, you know, to shed some tears and, oh, you poor people, we sympathize with you. No, I want you to do something. That's the same thing that the Jewish people during the Holocaust did. You know, they shared the story, they wrote about it. I mean, the hope that never again, we have been writing stories, never again, please do not, please free us. We don't want to live under occupation. So that's the hope, that's where I get hope. I get hope because I see people, you know, understanding what's happening, feeling what's happening, but that's not enough. - Well, look, Mossad, now you're seeing things, you know, I don't know if you were aware there was the letter that was just written to President Trump from the head of, the former head of Mossad, the former head of Shindir. - Yeah. - The former head of Shindir. - Yeah, the former head of Shindir. - That's a repeat of things past and it won't change anything. What do those changes in the international community feel like to you? - John, I will be honest with you. - Okay. - I will tell you how I feel as a Palestinian refugee, as a victim, as a survivor, as a witness. This is how I see things. So there are some Israelis who have been outspoken about the Israeli crimes against the humanity of Israel. Against the humanity, the killing of people, the wiping out of entire families, the decimation of cities and refugee camps. So these people have been speaking out against these things. Yet there are some other people who may have spoken out, not because they feel sympathy with the Palestinian people. I can't judge, but my understanding is that they want Israel to stop that because they don't want the world to see Israel as that kind of villain. So they care about Israel's reputation. - More than they care about the immorality of it. - I don't judge. I'm not going to judge, because only God knows what is in someone's heart. But this is how I understand things. I think that some Israelis have been speaking out, like Gideon Levy and other media people, but they are a very tiny minority. So they have been speaking because they know that this should not happen to any human being, even if it's the Palestinians, even if they did something wrong. Okay? But there are some other Israelis, and even not Israelis, who speak out, because this is harming Israel. It's not that it is harming the Palestinians for 77 years, but this is harming Israel's reputation. They're going to say, "Look at the Jews, what they are doing. "This is increasing anti-Semitism." So they care about how they will look. - Still self-preservation, right? - Exactly. For me, as a Palestinian, if someone, whether it's the former head of Shanbet or whatever, whatever, whoever they are, if they really want the world to see them as people who care about other people, the Palestinian people in this case, they should call for an end to the Israeli occupation. For the freedom of the Palestinian people, we need to enjoy equal rights like anyone in this world. - Mm-hmm. Is that, it feels like, it seems like everybody's left it entirely up to Israel, and maybe that's the issue. What is your sense on the ground from Palestinian refugees of the Saudis, Egypt, the Jordanian government, other governments in the area that are, that are allied with the Palestinian cause, it would seem, from their statements, but are very passive when it comes to, I don't understand why no one has stepped in to draw a line. - Unbelievable, unbelievable, yeah. John, this is unbelievable. It's very shameful that we are watching, you know, the genocide being carried out for 22 months, documented by both the Palestinians who are in Gaza, and also the Israeli soldiers who are documenting their crimes as they blow up cities and counting, and they, oh, this is a gift for my daughter on her birthday, yalla, boom, destroy a whole neighborhood. So, so it's very shameful that we are watching this, you know, while, so, you know, some other countries who are, who join Palestine, and in this case, Egypt with Gaza, unable to do anything. While if, for example, a missile was coming from Yemen, you find another Arab country like Jordan intercepting that missile. While no one has been intercepting any of the bombs that Israel has been dropping on Palestinian people on tents in the streets. - Why, but Mossad, do you have a sense of why? - You say that these Arab countries are allied with the Palestinian people? I don't, I mean, people are allied with the Palestinian people. - That's what they say. - But governments are, I don't think governments are. - Right. - Because if they were, they would do everything in their power, you know, to stop Israel from doing that. Because we, I mean, Gaza, John, Gaza has had the three neighbors, the sea, Israel, and Egypt. - Right. - So there is no other, any country, you know, to flee to. - And Egypt has closed the border as well. Is it because, Mossad, are they, is it they're afraid of Hamas as well? What is the, what's their rationale for- - What is Hamas? I don't know, afraid of Hamas. - Or whatever they refer to as- - What does Hamas have, even? What kind of weapons does Hamas have? - Right, well, at this point, yeah. - So here, it's similar to what's happening to what's been happening in Jordan and Lebanon. These countries do not want to, you know, to have Palestinian refugees for good and bad reasons. They don't want to be responsible for another plight of the Palestinian people, for them to live in Egypt and to move them out of their homeland, which is, in this case, Gaza. Even though 70%, John, 70% of the population of Gaza are refugees and their descendants. I am a descendant, I am a grandchild of refugees from Jaffa. So I'm a refugee. And that's something that Israel hated. - So your family was from Jaffa? - Yes, it is the name of my daughter, Jaffa. I have two sons and one daughter. - Okay. Give people a sense, Jaffa is in the north of Israel? Is that, where is that geographically? - It's in the middle of the coast. - The middle of the coast, okay. - Yeah, so- - So that's where your family lived before? - Yes, that's one reason why my grandparents went to Shate. Shate means beach, by the way. Gaza is on the beach and the Shate refugee camp is exactly on the beach. So that's why my grandfather and one of his brothers, went to live in Shate because this is where they used to live, on the beach. Right? - Right. And they had a beautiful life there. They lived there for generations. - I never met my grandfather, John. I was born after he died and I don't know where his grave is. I don't know his date of birth. There are so many things that I want to know about my family who lived in Jaffa just a few, I mean, maybe an hour and a half away from Gaza. - It's a shocking thing, John. I've never been to the West Bank, which is considered the Palestinian territory, right? - Right. - I'm from Gaza. I've never been to the West Bank. - They're not connected. - I don't know people in the West Bank. I can't talk about the experiences of people in Ramallah, in Nablus, in Hebrew, although I see their videos, but I don't know how they live exactly, except from the news. So, and the same thing, they have never been to Gaza. It's devastating, John. - And so it's a people divided through that, right? - It's devastating, John. - Mosab, in a perfect world, is there a contiguous, how do we extract ourselves? And I know that the, look, you're in the middle of it, and it's not fair to look to you and say, "Hey, what's the way out of this thing?" then but it feels like without the international community stepping in to separate two combatants and creating some barrier so that two societies can flourish separately which seems like the only way to do this at this point is there any other way to do this yes yes there is one way okay which is when the when the when the world when the world not only leaders but also media people when they start to care about the security of the palestinian people the same way they care about the security of israel so tell me tell me why why do the palestinian people not have an army well i assume it's because israel does not allow them to have an army so they have kind of a guerrilla why kind of outfit so who's going to protect the palestinian people when they are living under occupation for example in the west bank john not in gulf right look it's an interesting question in the west so here's the question in the west doesn't israel have a right to exist and doesn't israel have a right to defend itself and everybody yes and yes okay but i imagine the exact same question can be applied to don't the palestinians have a right to exist yes and don't the palestinians have a right to defend themselves yes well now okay now we're now we're now we're cooking with gas here so what do you do with that then that's just a recipe for incessant conflict one-sided because one side has very powerful weapons that the united states provides and the other side does not so it just seems inevitable not to be horrible about this but inevitable that they are going to continue to force palestinians into smaller and smaller areas yeah john israel is not the only one responsible for the catastrophe of the palestinian people israel is not the only one responsible for the catastrophe of the palestinian people 77 years ago it is the whole world even the un even the un even the un okay i'm not attacking the un but but i'm gonna say that that the attack away yeah so so the un by the way israel was admitted to the united nations as a full member in 1949 just one year after it was founded palestine is it a member of the united nations it is not no it is not why why is palestine not a part of the united nations even though john for your information the palestine palestine uh you know in in the united nations the palestinian uh mission there on april i'm gonna read this for you on april 18 the united states vetoed a security council resolution that would have recommended palestine's admission to full un membership this action effectively blocked palestine's application for full member status which had been submitted in 2011 palestine is a member of the united nations and palestine is a member of the united nations submitted uh uh you know an application to become a full member of the united nations in 2011 and the united states just a few months ago vetoed that that security council resolution so why i can't understand and even other countries you know like canada like france like britain they recognized israel even though john this is very important to highlight for for for everyone based on the partition plan the jewish state should have had 50 percent of the palestinian land but even though the jewish people in 1947 when the partition plan was passed they only had about six percent of the land while the palestinian people who had all of the land they were given 40 at least 43 because jerusalem was under international uh authorities so after 1948 after the war the catastrophe in 1948 israel occupied you know how much 78 percent of the land right so despite that even though israel was occupying more than it was given uh during the uh i mean based on the partition plan it was recognized by other countries and it was admitted you know as a full member of the united nations how is the i mean can someone explain do you think that was because of of western sympathies and you know look there's a what i find so kind of uh hard here is there's a palestinian history and there's an israeli history and the two of them don't really intersect the way that the the different people describe the uh you know unfairness of the situation or israel would say no we wanted to live in peace and then everybody attacked us and so that's why we had to and we have to protect ourselves you know again i i feel like we've left two people you know we've left two people and we have to protect ourselves and we have to protect ourselves in very difficult situations to fend for themselves one of them was supported by the west and armed and became uh a powerful army and the other was abandoned by everybody yeah it's hard to not see the palestinians as having been abandoned yeah i by everybody yeah interesting point i have i have my own say here um please yeah i respect you and i know you know the the the background of the story but i just want to ask you maybe some questions we should ask so did the palestinian people play any role in the holocaust in the in the in the suffering of the jewish people in europe right right my grandparents when they were swimming in the in the sea in yafa did they know even maybe any anything about what was happening in germany and you're saying they they faced a penalty and a punishment for something they had no part of yeah and by the way some some jewish people were living in palestine even before the first jewish zionist congress and i think it was in a year or so before the first zionist congress and i think it was in a year or so before the first 1879 so there were some jewish people who were living in palestine and no one of them you know said oh we're gonna create a state so the jewish people in europe were faced with with horrific horrific experiences in europe not in palestine not in gaza not in yafa my grandparents and everyone they did not play any role in the in the suffering of the jewish people in in europe i mean thousands of miles away right so of course everyone should sympathize with the jewish people but it should be on the expense at the expense of the palestinian people right and by the way john yafa city yafa as a city it based on the partition plan it should have been part of the arab the palestinian state right so no one is denying that the jewish people have gone through a holocaust and this is this is the the most heinous war crime in the 20th century but what about the nakba the catastrophe with the palestinian people that not only resulted in the killing of some palestinians but also in their dispositions and in their dispositions and in their dispositions and in their dispositions and the expulsion of 700 000 palestinians a problem that continues until today so why so let's say the palestinian people no one sympathizes with them and even if they sympathize with the palestinian people what is this part of it it's the narrative you know we've been raised in a narrative that israel is a necessary good you know we've been raised in schindler's list and the movie munich and we all watched you know the the the terrorism of the early 70s and the sympathies of the united states and of many people and i include myself within that because that's how i was raised was the narrative was this is a uh this is a good an unqualified good and the other is an unqualified bad and that's the narrative that everybody has been fighting against since then and so as i watch what's unfolding you have to realize now this is all coming as sort of a head-scratching oh uh everything has has changed even though it hasn't in in especially in the minds of those that have suffered through the nakba and through uh these other injustices this is not something that i think has been visible for a lot of different reasons a i don't think people wanted to see it b i don't think you have the same uh western journalist access it's been restricted yeah uh and so you know i think i think people right now are you've had to endure this for your 30 some years your family's had to endure it for generations unfortunately many of us are just waking up to it yeah i mean yeah i know it is the narrative that that many people especially in this country have been raised on um but this is not this is not hell i planted a tree there that was the whole thing you know when you're raised as a jewish kid in in the states you know the first thing you do is you got to plant a tree in israel apparently like no trees yeah i may have to go get my tree back you plant you plant a tree in the place of an orange tree that my grandparents you know planted centuries ago but that's that part hasn't been i know that wasn't explained in hebrew school yeah and i'm sure there's things that aren't explained listen and i don't want to oversimplify and suggest that like oh and uh you know look armed insurrection and revolutionaries and hamas and the islamists like that's also incredibly cruel october 7th incredibly cruel horrific just give back the hostage like all of that stuff still applies but i think it's important to hear that broader perspective from someone like yourself who's been raised in this tragedy yeah so john you know what i'm sharing with you you know, it's, it's not only, you know, my opinion on what's happening or what should be happening. You know, it is, it is, it is my story. It is me. Right. So people talk about Palestine. So for example, you bring, you know, guests and other bring guests to talk about Palestine, but what is just like Peter said, you know, what is, what is equally important is to bring people from there because these people are the story we are talking. So people like you and others who are here, they don't have, you know, I wish you could go to Gaza and meet people and talk to them. I mean, people in the media talk about Palestinians, about the story, but they don't talk to people from there. It is equally important. I think it's more important to talk to the story itself. One time I was asked, are you going to tell your, your, your, your children, you know, these stories that you, you are telling us? I told them my children are the story. In my poetry, I talk about my children. One time in 2000, May, 2021, when Israel attacked Gaza for 11 days, I was filming. Okay. It's on my phone. And later I wrote a poem about my son throwing a blanket over my daughter, you know, telling her you can hide from the bombs because there was some bombing in the background. So he threw a blanket on here. He said to her, you can hide now. So the, my, my children and me also, we are the story. So the story should be the one who is talking. I don't like, I mean, that, that could be the case in the past 10, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, you know, when people, you know, come to talk about what they see in Palestine, what they hear from there. But it is now the time for the people from there who lived the experience for the story itself to speak up, you know? Mosab, is that, is that one of the hardest things? Because what you see in a lot of Western media is, oh, that's not what happened. That's an exaggeration. Oh, they're not starving. That's not actually a starving child. That child has cystic fibrosis. And you're like, well, I think that child has cystic fibrosis and is starving. Yes. Yeah. Is that one of the more difficult things or more frustrating things? Yeah. Because now that you're not enduring it, being in the States to see that narrative. Yeah. John, I'm talking to, to, to first, first degree family members. Right. Right. I talked to my parents, to my father. Who are still there. Yes. I talked, I talked to my, my uncle, Ibrahim, who had a bachelor's degree in English and French literature. And he was talking to me on the phone back from the Zikim aid crossing. And he, he described to me what is an apocalyptic scene. He told me he, he went back home to the tent. Sorry, not home. He went back home. He went back to the tent to his, to his, to his wife and their two children, Naeem and Sajab, who lived with me in the school shelter before I left. He told me, I saw two things, two, two people. One of them was shot in the, in, in the arm and he was carrying, he was carrying his, his arm with his other hand. And then there was another old man who was shot in the abdomen. And he, that man took off his shirt to, to, to, to shut the, the wound. It's apocalyptic zone. And I post videos on my ex every day of people. Yesterday, I posted a video of someone who was filming his cousin, Haitham Abuwarda. He was filming the people on the ground after they were shot. And other people, you think most people, you know, would stop and carry the, those to the hospital. There is, there are no hospital in the, where the aid crossing is coming from. So people would continue going to the aid tracks to, to get whatever they could. So that man was filming at least five, five, seven people. And then on his camera, you would sit and you, you listen to him. Oh, that's Haitham, my cousin. That's his cousin who was killed. Oh God. So people in Gaza, my, my uncle and my relatives tell me that they are starving. They are telling me Musab, my, my wife's, uh, uh, uncle's wife told me that she was 70 kilograms. Before the genocide. And now she is 40, she's 40 kilograms. So she lost 30 kilograms of her weight. So I'm, I'm good. No, no, no, you are, you are not starving. It's still good. It's still good. Uh, you know what Hamas is stealing your aid. You know, people are starving, right? Let the aid in, let it in with, with large quantities. And we know that the, that Hamas is not stealing it because Israel does not have any evidence, right? This is what the Israeli generals and officials. Even if they were, Stealing some of the aid, I think you have to get the, I mean, it's, it's a moral imperative to get, Exactly. And by the way, Israel is occupying Gaza. So they are responsible for providing. Hamas is not governing Gaza. Hamas is not an official entity. It's not a state. Even if they do some things, things that are wrong, they do not represent the Palestinian people. But whatever Israel is doing and its army, it represents Israel. And there is something John, I have to say with all due respect to everyone. I have so many Jewish friends, you know, my editor, You don't have to couch it. You don't have to couch it in anything. I have, I mean, some of the most amazing people I met in my life are Jewish people. I'm, I'm honest. My editor, my literary agent is Jewish. The lady with whom I stay when I go to Manhattan. You don't have to qualify it. But, but, you know, I love, I love the Jewish people so much. So it hurts me when Israel, Oh, you're related. You're cousins. You're, we're all, we're all connected. Exactly. You don't have to, you don't have to qualify it. It's, but, but you know, I love, I love the Jewish people so much. So it hurts me when Israel, Well, you're, you're related. You're cousins. You're, we're all. Exactly. I'm related to you. You're related to me. Yes, we are. We are related. And even if we are not Jewish and Palestinian, even if we are just random human beings, we all, we all come from the same father. We're related by the human lineage. Yes. Exactly. So, so John, what's happening here is that when Israel, you know, says we are the Jewish people, we are protecting the Jewish people. So it means, it means that what they are committing in Gaza right now is, is, is, is, is by the name of the Jewish people. Right. Because when they say, oh, I'm protecting the Jewish people, I'm going to expel 700,000 Palestinians and turn Gaza into refugee camps and then destroy the refugee camps. So these are Jewish soldiers. But for me as Palestinians, I know, as a Palestinian, I know that these are not only Jewish. These are Israelis. They are Zionists. For me, I'm not going to say, oh, this, this Israeli soldier is like John who is in New Jersey and, you know, taking care of his family and opening the eyes of people on what's happening in America and outside. So I'm not, I'm not going to fall into that trap. But they, by what they are doing, they are telling everyone in the world, look, we are Jewish people. Look what we are doing. We are cutting aid. John, I named it a genocide. You can go to my Facebook page. I named it a genocide from the fifth day. Right. I said to the world, stop the genocide. I did not wait for Amnesty International to call it a genocide. I didn't wait for Beth Salem, the Israeli human rights organization, to call it a genocide. Right. I knew, I knew what a genocide is because I knew what Israel was capable of doing, and they are doing it. When they said we are going to cut off food, medicine, water, these are human animals. You should leave. Netanyahu said on October 12th, that was an interview I did with Democracy Now! That same day, Netanyahu said to people in Gaza, people of Gaza, you should leave. So what if someone knew at that point? Exactly. So October 12th, he said, you should leave. You understand that if you don't leave, they are going to say, you see, we told them to leave. We are going to kill them. It means that they are Hamas. These are terrorists. So I knew, I knew what they were going to do without them doing it. The genocide, John, is not about what Israel is doing. The genocide is about what they are doing and what they are going to do, and they are doing it for 22 months. You don't have to wait until someone finishes with the genocide. Are there any levers of influence within Gaza for these? I imagine it's like, you know, Mad Max that it's people are just trying to survive. And then there's some armed, I would assume, guerrilla type gangs and things like that. But is there any if you were to ask your family other than, you know, look, we just we need the international aid. And do they even think about the politics of it? Like, well, if we could get pressure on Israel to do this or if we could somehow leverage pressure on Hamas to do this, or do they just think I just need food and water and medicine for my children and leave me out of the rest of this? Yeah, I mean, people in Gaza, John, want to live. I mean, they are, they are so tired. People in Gaza are really tired. I mean, people, I hear it from my relatives in Gaza. They say, I wish I could just die today because I'm going to die anyway. I don't want to die. I mean, so, for example, by the way, my father in law, my wife's father was killed on Monday, on Sunday. He was wounded in an air strike while on the way to to the to the Zikim aid crossing. He was hit with other people by as an Israeli drone missile and two pieces of a shrapnel pierced his head, landed in his in the middle of his brain, and doctors couldn't operate. And he passed. He died on Sunday. That was just five days ago. I'm so sorry, Mashab. So, for example, my uncle, I call him Uncle Jalil, my father in law. So, if all I mean, it devastates me. So just imagine he survived all this time from October 7th until three days ago. So he survived all of this time. He survived the starvation. He went back to his house. He's a strawberry farmer. They destroyed his strawberry farm. They destroyed his house. So just imagine, you know, surviving about 650 days and then to die, you know, when two pieces of shrapnel pierced your head. So people sometimes say, oh, you know, I wish I had died on October 7th or October 8th. Why should I have survived all this time just to be killed like that? People want this to end. Right. And about the ceasefire, there was a ceasefire in January and Israel broke it. Right. There was a there was a chance that the Israeli hostages who must be released today unconditionally, along with the Palestinian hostages, everyone No one, I mean, no one should be kept hostage. - You were held in captivity for a while as well, weren't you, in Israel? - I was abducted from my wife and kids for three days. And I mean, I didn't have anything on myself. And because of the international pressure, I was released. But I was, John, I was sexually harassed. I had to undress, remove all my clothes in front of three Israeli soldiers. Do you call this anything that has to do with sexual harassment? When you force someone to remove all their clothes in front of three Israeli soldiers? No one talks about these things. I'm not called the hostage. Because I'm Palestinian, I was detained, I was arrested. But this is not how you arrest someone. This is not how you detain someone. You do not blindfold them, you do not handcuff them, you do not force them to remove all their clothes. And even they forced me to turn around, even to see all my body from different directions. And then I was taken to a detention center and I was beaten. I was beaten in the face and beaten in my stomach. And I was denied medical treatment. I told the Israelis, when they brought us in front of an Israeli doctor, we were still blindfolded and handcuffed. I told them I have some pain in my nose after I was kicked in my nose. And I have pain in my ear, on which I had a surgery in the U.S. in 2020 during COVID. So I told them I want some medicine, I want painkiller. And they didn't give me anything. They just asked me about my name, my phone number, my date of birth. That's the question by the doctor that we had to see. My phone number, my address in Gaza, my birth of date, my ID number, my ID card number. And then I told them I have pain in my nose. I have pain in my ear. Can you give me any pain? No, they just, you know, put me back in the detention center. So they were feeding us, I think maybe a toast or maybe half one and some, a spoonful of yogurt. And maybe three, four drops of water. And when we use the toilet, someone had to pick us from the place. He's one of us, but he's not blindfolded and handcuffed. He would be taking care of all of us, about a hundred people. He would take us to the toilet and there was no toilet paper, no water to clean after yourself. So I lived there for three days, only three days. - Look, you know, you're a man of literature. You're a poet, you're a human being. You're a Palestinian, you're a father, you're a husband. How are you not consumed with absolute rage? It's so hard to hear any of this and not think this is a nuclear reactor of rage and anger and resentment that, how do you manage that in your own body? - Yeah, I stick to my humanity, John. This is the only weapon I have. - How? - I keep my humanity in my heart, in myself. I try to be a supportive to my wife and three kids here. And also my family and relatives and friends in Gaza. I support them with everything I can. I call them, how are you? How are you doing? How was your day? People want to talk to us. I talk to them and my father-in-law, God bless his soul. When he takes the phone, when I talk to him, he starts to make up stories. You know, he just wants to talk to me. - Right. - So I try to be as supportive as possible. You know, people in Gaza have not only been bombed by Israel, have not, not only have they lost their houses and they were bombed in their tents, but also no one is listening to them. I mean, it is different when a Palestinian journalist, you know, does an interview with someone, you know, someone who lost his son and from when someone outside of Gaza, you know, a white man like you with, with beautiful eyes, when you talk to them, people would be relieved. You know, I'm talking to someone from America, you know, he's going to tell Biden and Trump about my, my, my, our demise, you know, our suffering. And of course, of course he will do something. You know, you know, he, when he tells the story, these people will change their minds and hearts. Israel has been denying the access of international journalists. And this is another devastation. And this is another devastating thing, you know, for people like you and others, you know, to, to, to see things with their own eyes. And because, you know, it gives us hope, you know, when we see our stories out, but we need to see people outside from Gaza, outside of Gaza. John, I was in Gaza all my life, except for the time I was here to study and do my fellowship. The only, the only outsiders I saw in Gaza were foreign journalists during the Israeli assault and some human rights, you know, activists or maybe attorneys who come to Gaza, maybe to talk to families. But visitors like you, maybe someone who wants, you know, has a friend. I have, oh, Musab is my friend. I want to visit him in Gaza. Oh, I want to, you know, see his family in the refugee camp. Or maybe I want to do a documentary with him. I've never seen anyone who said, oh, you know, I'm going to visit here, you know, just maybe I want to swim in the sea. You know, I want to see the strawberries. I want to see your father-in-law, how he takes care of his strawberry farm. And another shocking thing I have never seen, a passenger plane in the sky over Gaza, in my life, in Gaza. The only planes I saw in my life are helicopters, drones, F-16s. I swear to God, you can ask anyone in Gaza. And nowadays, to be honest, because, you know, I'm an honest guy, there is a new kind of planes that people are seeing, the aid planes. But other than that- - Just dropping aid on people. - Dropping, I mean, the amount of aid these planes are dropping doesn't amount to maybe one truck or two trucks. - Right. - It's helpless, John. And to these countries with all, I don't know. I mean, I don't want to do all due respect, but I mean, these countries are, you know, fooling everyone. They say, oh, we flew some planes, you know, we are dropping food and blah, blah. This is not doing, making any difference. - No, I think when access is finally granted, I think the world is going to be utterly shocked. - We did have some glimpse into what's happening in Gaza - Yeah. - With the aid planes, you know, where- - Right. - When some of the journalists, you know, took photos and videos, we did see. So we are not lying. This is not propaganda. We are not Hamas. We are not terrorists. - Right. - We are not lying when we said Israel is destroying neighborhoods. When I, every day I was posting that Israel is blowing up houses in Khan Yunis, in Shijia, in Beit Lahi, in Beit Hanun. That was not propaganda. This is what we saw in our eyes, in our eyes. - Right. - And this is what the cameras, the Western media journalists uncovered. It was true. Everything the Palestinian people said, it was true. When we posted about the 15 medics who were killed in Rafah. - And the people being killed, right. - In March. - It was true. - We were not lying, John. John, we were not lying. - They found the video. And unfortunately now the Palestinian people are left without any agency and left helpless. And there's sort of an idea here like, oh, well you could just get them to release this and everything would be done. I don't think people understand just what you guys that are living there have been through. And the opportunities to have any agency over your lives at all. - Yeah, John, I think what the Palestinian people need immediately is international protection. - That's what I don't understand, Mossad. What happened to international peacekeeping? What happened to just, why is Israel in charge of this? This makes no sense to me. This is the one thing that I just can't wrap my head around, get an international- - Are you suggesting that Israel has more power than in Israel? - Right. I mean, I don't understand how- - You're anti-Semite. No, no, you're anti-Semite. No, no. - I've been called worse. I've been called worse. - No, you can't suggest that Israel has control over international decisions. - Right. Well, that's a different, you know, but that is the part that's really vexing to me and confusing is how there isn't. And I don't, you know, the United States plays a huge role here. It's not, you know, the United States' inability to, you know, we sell them weapons and then tell them to go easy with it. It's like, I used to say, it's like your drug dealer selling you a bunch of cocaine and then going like, "But don't stay up all night." Like it's, it's, boy, it's hard to find your way through. - Yeah, I want to say this thing. So when Israel was attacked on October 7th and some crimes were committed against civilians, and this is, this is, this is very clear, what, what did the world do? They said that Israel has the right to defend itself, but has anyone in the world before October 7th and even after October 7th, did anyone say the Palestinian people have the right to defend themselves against the invading and the genocidal Israeli army? What they are committing is a genocide, not according to me, but so many other human rights organizations and Israeli genocide and Holocaust scholars. So it's, it's not, it's not something that, a word that we are, we are throwing here and there. Although I described it based on what I saw in Gaza at the time and what I knew that Israel was going to do. So when Israel was attacked on October 7th, what did the world do? They said, did they only say that Israel has the right to defend itself or, and did they stop at that? No, Biden visited Israel. Tony Blinken visited Israel many times. Israel, the United States sent so many weapons to Israel. Okay, now let's talk about Palestinian people. The Palestinians have been under occupation for 77 years in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The Palestinians have been attacked militarily by Israel, at least for 20 years. 22 months. Now, let's say some countries said the Palestinian people have the right you know to protection okay did they do anything about that no no okay israel committed war crimes for example let me read this on july 13th 2025 just a month from now israel bombed a group of people collecting water killing 10 civilians including six children that was on the news by the way when mainstream finally spoke out israel dismissed it as a technical error on july 17th three four days after that israel bombed a church killing three christians because they were christians and because this was the church the late pope francis used to call daily before he passed away israel issued a statement calling it a stray ammunition on march 23rd israel forces murdered 15 medics we talked about that in rafa at first they claimed the israelis claimed that the ambulances were suspicious uh but after the video emerged the israelis claimed that the ambulances were suspicious uh but after the video emerged on april 15th of april 5th showing clearly marked emergency vehicles under fire israel walked back its narrative and it said you know calling it a case of professional failures and there are many other cases like the world central kitchen um also they bombed al maghaz refugee camp i think late 2024 and they said we used the wrong ammunition they said we used the wrong ammunition so what accountability one mistake is a mistake a mistake a series of mistakes is a strategy and i think what you're what you're saying is these types of crimes are a strategy yeah that it's the strategy that's being deployed against palestinian people but israel still gets more weapons and it is still covered up by the united states by vetoing many many un resolution drafts you know that call for a release of the hostages and a ceasefire it's funny that you say inside the thing that protects you is is that you're not protecting your humanity but it's it's hard to feel this situation as anything but an utter failure of humanity to to step in and end what is an absolute disgusting uh display and and horrific and uh it's it's just hard not to view it as an utter failure of our shared sense of of purpose and being and i'm and i'm terribly sorry for what your family uh is going through and the conditions that have created this for you if if i can just one one mention one last thing you know just to honor the memory of some of my relatives who were killed in the past 22 months um in two airstrikes israel killed more than 50 people from my from my family and my my mother's family one airstrike in uh in october 2020 three israel killed 30 uh members of my family my father's cousin his wife and their children and their grandchildren 30 people entire family except for two survivors uh one of the one of the these 30 people were my first cousin taharir she was killed with her disabled husband and their five children all of them under 15 in another airstrike a separate airstrike in october 2024 a year a year from that israel carried out a separate airstrike in october 2024 a year from that israel carried out an airstrike on my mother's aunt's house that that aunt was my great aunt fatima dibis who i used to call my grandmother because my grandmother passed away when i was uh seven years old so my my great aunt was killed along with 14 of her family members one of them was a seven-year-old first cousin of mine so john this genocide that i'm talking about it's not only carried out against the palestinian but it's also carried out against a population 70 percent of whom are refugees and we talked about that that's another that's another level of the genocide there is a very very important level of the genocide that i rarely hear anyone talking about which is that israel is wiping out entire families so maybe you know you are you are living in i think in new jersey or new york you live with your wife and children and maybe your your father is living in another state your your uncle is living in a maybe in a country where he's living in a country where he's living in a country where in europe i don't know but in gaza john when a family when a family house is bombed it means a whole generation is gone i just want to give you one example that the west western media did not cover i talked to one of the survivors of a massacre that was carried out in december 2023 and that's called joha family maybe it's shocking maybe it's not but 80 people around 80 people were killed in that airstrike so the thing is not it's not it's not only that 80 people were killed but i want to show you who the 80 people were i i i made a family tree here john this is the grandfather this is the grandfather these are his children they were killed with their wives and these are their names they were killed they were killed with their children and their grandchildren okay then the grandfather himself he had another brother who who was already dead but the grandfather you know he was he was he died he he he wasn't alive but this this brother of their grandfather he lost two sons and their children and their grandchildren here and that's the last grandfather so three grandparents these are these are about 80 people so the person i talked to his name is alice i talked to him on the phone two weeks ago just you know to help me make the family tree and you know what he told me he was going out to buy some food for his kids that was december there were some shops at the time and he told me musab i was out buying some uh trying to find some food for my wife and kids he someone told him there is there is a there was there is an airstrike in your neighborhood and then he he he started running to the to the neighborhood and he found the two houses of the family level to the ground he lost his wife and their two children along with the whole family this is one number two he told me they were able to bury only 50 out of the 80 so 30 people have been under the rubble and since december 2023 including his wife and two children so that's one of his dreams to go back and find whatever remained of his the bodies of his wife and children to bury them john these are stories and this is only one story by the way i i swear to god i have other stories that i talk to people there just you know to confirm the names and the ages these are mostly children mostly children so i met two two girls in egypt i evacuated gaza in in december 2023 so i i lived in an apartment in egypt and i don't know there was a miracle because in november israel bombed a house in nusayrat in a on november 26th or maybe 20 i think it was 23rd i'm not sure about the date i forgot i was not prepared to talk about this this this story so israel bombed the house where a friend of mine a fellow teacher was staying with his mother and father his wife and children and um four four four four four sisters in that airstrike the father the mother my friend ismail which was killed ismail was killed along with his two children his wife survived she's still in gaza two sisters were killed two sisters survived when i was in gaza i met the two sisters because it was about the time i was released and i went to the hospital to see a doctor for my wounds and i saw the two sisters just freshly surviving the airstrike i left gaza in december and it was a miracle because the two sisters were evacuated to egypt and they happened to be staying in a hospital just two blocks away from where i was staying and i met them there at the hospital and they became family one thing they told me john they told me brother musab do you have any any friends who could help us go back to gaza that was january 2024 do you have any way you know to to to send us back to gaza because they were you know recovering and they said we want to go back to gaza i told them why why do you want to leave gaza people are struggling to leave people are struggling they both told me one of them is a pharmacist the other is is a teacher isra and ala abu gaben they are in egypt right now told him why do you want to go back to egypt sorry why do you want to go back to gaza and they told me they told me the body of our father the body of ismail and a 16 year old sister were still under the rubble and we want to go back and dig through and bury them this is what they told i was shocked i was and their bodies until today or whatever remained of them are under the rubble and i have a long poem in my collection forest of noise called under the rubble this is maybe the the most the the expression the the phrase that i say most of the time everything is under the rubble john people people are under the rubble our books under the rubble our clothes under the rubble now our cities are under the rubble musab um thank you for for sharing your witness, your testimony, and your, above all, humanity with us on this. I can't tell you how much I wish for your pain and their pain and the pain in the region to be alleviated in some measure as a testament to humanity being worthwhile as a species to be protected. But thank you, and I'm terribly sorry that this conversation had to take place. Yeah, thank you so much, John. And I pray for peace and, more importantly, for justice for the Palestinian people, for the plight that they have been going through for decades. And I pray that there is a power that's going to stop all of this, but I'm sure that this power is not going to stop us. I'm sure that this power is not going to stop us. It's not coming from the outer space. I hope that the international community would step in and send a peace force, a protection force, whatever it is, you know, to protect the civilian population, the people. I mean, 70% of these people are refugees. 50% are children. What is more reason? Even the people who tried to go to Gaza on the boats, you know, they were taken from the sea. These people were going to Gaza, not to Israel. Why do you take these people on the boats, Hamdallah and Madly? Why do you take them from the sea to Israel? They were not going to Israel. They were going to Gaza. Right. So even the civilians, the individuals who tried to do something, they were taken. They were kidnapped from their boats and taken to Israel. These people did not want to go to Israel. They wanted to go to people in Gaza, see them, help them, whatever. Every means have been tried, and the world has failed the Palestinian people. Yes. It's very heartbreaking, you know, for me. Yes. You know, when I read, you know, the diaries of, Anne Frank, you know, Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz, Night by Elie Wiesel. You know, when I read these things, John, you know, I read them in the past, but I mean, I sometimes ask myself, what if, you know, Anne Frank was writing these diaries every day and she was sending these diaries to publish in the New York Times, the Washington Post, you know, to be read on Fox News or on CNN, you know, and maybe she had the chance to do an interview with you while she was still, you know, hiding with her family. Right. Writing. What is happening? You know, just imagine Elie Wiesel was writing about how he was standing in line for the Nazis, you know, to pick him and his father, you know, from the lines to go to the gas chambers. And no one did anything. These people were doing that. What lesson did we learn? What lesson did we learn from the Holocaust? Mossab, it's the question. It's the question of the decade, of the century, of the millennium. What lessons? Do we learn from these holocausts, from these tragedies? Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. It's Mossab Abu Toha, a poet and an author and a humanitarian. And I hope to speak with you again soon. Shukran. Thank you so much, John. Bless you. Okay. I really don't know how to answer that. And other than I hope you found that episode meaningful. You may not agree with all of it. You may think there should have been space for other voices, but I think it's important to bear certain witness in its purest form of that. And I don't know if there is a purer form than somebody holding up pages and pages of family trees that have disappeared from this world. From this earth. So we will be back next week. Obviously, thanks to lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mamedovic, video editor and engineer Rob Patel, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, researcher and associate producer Jillian Speer, and our executive producers Chris McShane and Katie Gray. And thank you for listening. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. Paramount Podcasts.