3: On cold call

[MUSIC] Welcome to Jones and McLean, an education podcast. I'm Bronriery Jones, and I'm a meaner McLean. We've been talking about education for years. Usually on long phone calls from our cars, and now we're bringing the conversations to you. Jones, today we're taking a deep dive into cold calling, a practice you are particularly passionate about implementing well. >> Yes, I enjoy talking about cold calling more than just about any other topic in teaching, so I can't wait to get stuck in. Before we do, it's episode three McLean, how are you and what's news? >> I'm a bit worried about this episode. I don't know what's going to come out of our mouths because I think we're both feeling the end of 10-3 exhaustion. I'm good, but I'm a bit tired, and I think often when we record this podcast, we've just had a day in a school or a day somewhere, which is the case for me. But, yeah, I'm good. I had a day at Stocklands Primary School yesterday, which was really fun, a school improvement team day. I've been at Halum's secondary today. Shout out to our friend Shelley, who's been listening to the pot. Tomorrow, I met Matthew Flanders' girl's secondary, which will be a good day, and a few other projects this week, but yeah, it's that time of year when I start thinking about what my end of year gift to myself is going to be. Always, I think I tell you about this. >> We'll have to maybe we'll get the listeners to write. >> See, until I buy a new house, I'm trying not to buy furniture, but I usually buy myself something really meaningful, like a really special edition of a book or a piece of jewelry or an experience, so I'm just starting to, you know, plot the things that will give me reinforcement as we were toward the end of the year. >> I was thinking that in our home state of Victoria, the sun was really shining today, and it's just that start of spring. >> And also like the AFL finals being on, it's just like a lot of cues in the environment, like holidays are coming, holidays are coming. >> Warm skin, warm bones, you know on that, a fun hobby since the weather's getting better, I've told some of my friends about it, haven't told you, so this will be an on air revelation. I think I'm going to get into birding this summer. I've been looking at binoculars and bird books, and I think I'm going to become a bird. >> I was about to tell you, legitimately, my first thought is, I presumed you already were one. >> Oh, late to the party then, disappointing. Anyway, that's enough. As I said, I didn't know what was going to come out of this, what about you? How are you? What's happening? >> Yeah, I've been good. Just the usual mad run around to lots of different schools. I've had just super varied week doing lots of bits and pieces online. I don't know, kind of also along the thread of sort of barreling towards school holidays. I don't know about you, but I find this is like a big time for inquiries to work with networks and systems. So I'm doing a lot of program preparation and program design. Just work I really like, actually. So I'm really looking forward to working with some large networks next year, just looking at that. >> I think we should give a shout out to teachers for book week. This is a nationally celebrated week in Australia. Book week is always a time when I'm in and out of schools and I'm turning up to school, seeing like teams of prep year one, year two teachers. You look at their outfits and it's just a good reminder that teachers are bloody saints. You can just see hundreds and hundreds of dollars of their own money, but also just the hours of time. I know like at Docklands, I had some colleagues sharing last week the book week parade, but just teachers are saints. I mean, I know it's all the way up to secondary, but just particularly primary teachers, just the book week madness. So shout out to all the teachers. And yeah, no, I'm good. I've had some lovely catch ups with close friends from my first school, Daniel, and we were just reminded me of our first episode talking about teachers. It reminded me that when you get together with close colleagues from your first proper teaching job, you just end up invariably just streams of tears laughing at all the memories of your early teaching guys. So that was just joy. Yeah, should we crack on today's topic? >> Yes. >> Today's topic, cold call. What are the big ideas you want to cover today? >> So today, I want to explore, first of all, the name, cold call. I think you and I have discussed off air before that it's pretty terrible name. And we will let's talk about why that is. I want to talk though about why I think cold call is important. So I think it's a really important strategy. It's certainly something that I work with schools to implement. Equally, I think it is not the priority in most schools. I want to talk about why I think it's something that I can see to kind of like a second order technique. Usually not the priority in the vast majority of schools I work with. And then so let's end on a controversial one. I want to mount a case for the fact that I think cold call should never be random. So I want to talk about sort of cold call by pulling kids names out of sticks and similar practices to that and look at why it's never random. Let's start by thinking about the name. It's just a terrible name, isn't it? >> The name is no good. The name is diabolical. We have joked for years, I think, about it sounds like you're calling someone up on the phone selling something that they absolutely don't want. >> Yeah, well, that's what a cold call is, right? It's random and very annoying. >> Yeah, and I think, I don't know, we did talk off air about what do we prefer to call it. And I prefer to call it something like strategic questioning. I'd rather it have a name that more reflects what you want it to achieve. Because otherwise, I worry that it just becomes a random thing that's a list of, on your list of techniques. What would you call it? >> Yeah, I like, I call it cold call because that's the most common usage, right? So I basically, even my work with schools say, I think this is a really unfortunate name. And I think it's bad branding. And I think it also just doesn't do justice to how difficult and nuanced it is, right? The biggest problem I have with the name cold calling is that cold calling anyone is easy. And actually executing this technique well is nuanced relies on a high level of a high degree of teacher expertise, judgment, care, thought. And that's really hard. I actually think cold calling is one of the hardest sort of, if we could call it a checking for understanding. It's one of the hardest sort of checks for understanding to implement well. I think it's worth remembering that like often talk to teachers who, I think are under the impression sort of Doug Lemov, like invented cold calling or that more recently sort of Tom Sherrington invented cold calling. And you read Doug and Tom's work and neither of them are claiming to have invented it. It's worth remembering that cold call was just the name that got popularized that I can tell anyway, through Doug Lemov's work in his book Teach Like A Champion, now very well known. But what Doug and Tom and others have done really well is just watch lots of experts teach and then codify that. And the vast majority, if the numbers in Australia or anything like they are in the US or UK, the vast majority of those people they would have been watching would have been women. And all we've been doing is watching great teaching and codifying that and naming it and talking about why it's good. So I think just off the bat, helpful to hold in mind, you can call it whatever you like. Cold calling in your school could be called warm calling, directed questioning, strategic questioning or cold call, whatever you want. But it's sort of this myth that it's like this belongs to any one person. I think it's just really helpful to think about the fact that in classrooms we need methods of directed questioning, they're really important that we have those methods and that we're working on them together as teams because it's really hard to do. But we can call it whatever we like. It doesn't kind of belong to anyone. Yeah, I think that's such a good point. And I think if you think back to Rosenstein's principles, but even decades before that, how much researchers were talking about the fact that highly effective teachers just ask more questions and think really deliberately about their questioning. It just happens to be that that's what someone and no one seems to be able to trace back. Someone decided to call that and then that's what it's become. Yeah, so I think what is really important and I think Dougalmov in particular has been, like I think his work has been really useful to me in this way. I think what is really important is that when we give something a name, it is used to describe one thing and non-five different things. And I think one of the biggest problems currently is that you've got all these people talking about, blogging about, presenting about Colquil and we're all talking across purposes and we're talking about different things. So I think one thing I want to sort of talk about today is that whatever you call it, be clear on what it is and what the instructional moves and steps are, I think that definition is really important. Why don't we have this- talk about why it's important then yeah let's have a think about why it's important. So I'm a huge advocate for, well, let's just define Cole Cole, because if we don't, we're going to keep running into this problem. Yeah, better not. Just regard our own advice. The way that I kind of define it is in line with, I would say it's most common sort of definition, which is that the teacher invites a student to respond without necessarily waiting for that student to volunteer. So it's an invitation of a response and not necessarily waiting on a student to volunteer for that to happen. Now why that's important is because you could ask any teacher what's participation like in your class and participation across all classes is going to be patchy, particularly if we leave it to students to decide who's going to participate and when. And particularly if we're just throwing questions out to students like year 11, you know, why does the body need protein? And then I've got a range of students who are going to offer upper response and then I've got a range of students who aren't. And there's ranging reasons for a student not offering upper response. But clearly we can't have that. Like I think we just cannot have and I sort of bang on about this all the time. I think one of the biggest universal problems to be solved is that in too many classrooms we have normalized really patchy participation where we have pockets of kids participating a lot. And then we have big pockets of kids who are kind of along for the ride maybe in the room in body but maybe not in spirit or they're in the room and they're cognitively engaged but they're shy or they're less confident in their oral language skills. Like there's lots of reasons why students would be less likely to participate. And but I don't think that we can just say oh well that's just teaching right some kids are going to answer questions and other kids are going to have less to say. Like the run-on effects of I guess normalising that or the run-on effects of accepting that I think are sort of too dire they're too negative. So the first big idea there then is equity in terms of participation but also what that participation allows you to then do. Yeah so it's about yeah it's about more equitable participation but also like more equitable practice more equitable rehearsing that new vocab word my teacher had me are more equitable chance to feel like I belong more equitable chance to have my world view put forward and lots of subjects where we're not talking about one right answer we're talking about you know a view or an interpretation of a text I could also in terms of oh my teacher actively cares about me and really wants to hear from me totally equity of who accesses the warm facial expression of the teacher who accesses oh hello Jasper Jasper's just walked into frame is he going to pass? No he's not but everything's noise cancelled anyway so this is going to look cute I mean this is going to be so fascinating for our listeners who again Jasper is the dog we should tell our listeners that we were originally going to do video podcasts so what do they call them vodka something terrible and then we decided that would mean we'd have to brush our hair and actually look reasonable and pretend that we're organized professionals Jasper's just wandered in has decided it's walk time okay so if we think about interactions in class as giving students access to resources like feedback error correction general praise behavior specific praise we don't want to aim for every student participating in equal amount all the time because that's not the aim but we can't accept classrooms where a small number of students are participating or even you know 80% of students participating and 20% aren't so cold call is just one lever and I want to talk about this a bit more in a moment that sits in a sort of ecosystem of techniques that we have it's just like one part of building a whole sort of system of engagement and participation and I think it's really important I think it's also just really really like brilliant when you see a classroom that has cold calling up and running like it just feels and looks right and great and you're seeing kids confidently share they expect to be called on not because they're going to be caught out but because their teacher cares what they think you know it's just it's really hard to go past when you see classrooms where it's humming and where the kids expect it so seamless yeah and yeah and I think just you know a really important technique to work on at the same time and this is where I think it gets a bit tricky in the vast majority of schools you know I've working I'd be interested to hear your take on this it's just often not the instructional priority because cold call is a kind of second-order technique in that it should follow all student engagement like yes it's an outcome or a sort of second step like it is an outcome of every student having a chance to make sense of something discuss something jot something down you know order the adjectives from best fit to worst fit give a true false gesture like a multiple choice response or like we need that those kind of all student opportunities to respond they are to me like an absolute sort of pre-condition that we need to have in the environment in order for something like cold call declaration lots of reasons for that it's about foundations first and why it may not be the priority or a possibility is because that has not yet been established yeah like if you think of like I think if you think of like the healthy food pyramid you think like what's down the bottom what should we having be having most of like in a diet of checking from the standing with most of the time we want all the students doing something and then that gives us like fertile ground from which to then sample across a class to see how students have got on with that and in the vast majority of schools I think we're moving and rushing much too quickly to just say oh implement cold call because it's quote evidence based or quote unquote science of learning says cold call yeah I was going to ask you about that because I mean this is so much more your area than it is mine you have deep deep expertise in this space but that's that's my perception is with perhaps science of learning discussions or maybe generic professional learning is like check for understandings really important here's a list of ways you can do it and then schools go oh we'll just do that list and then you go oh fire out in your nine and your ten classes this is not learning they're just not responding to the questions they're not participating you're like yeah because there's been no expectation that you will call on students beforehand so perhaps that's going to be one of the key takeaways in this app is there's actually a lot of work in the first instance to build those really safe inclusive classes it's not just a random thing that you can implement tomorrow yeah I think the other thing we have to think about is like how hard like what's the ask that we're putting on teachers now if you ask a teacher who's got all the students talking about saying or all writing a summarizing sentence or all writing something on a mini whiteboard and then you ask that teacher okay let's we're now work on layering in cold call you've made a pretty easy job for that teacher because there's a lot of evidence in the environment that I've got to go on to be like oh I can't I'm going to call Amina because I can see Amina's shared chair as her concrete now now I'm going to go to Beth because I can see if she's shared Liberty as her abstract now whatever evidence in the environment equips teachers with what they need to actually do it and so it's also I just think I just think it's wrong and unfair to be trying to implement this with teachers who haven't had like a who are not working in a school that's prioritized you know all student response systems as the norm but also just to be asking graduates to do this in really shallow surface ways like rattle your cup and pull a name the students name out on a stick that's just setting people up for failure and I also think like I don't want to sound too bulky but I do think that cold call sits on a knife's edge and that there's lots of techniques you can do as a teacher and if they go really badly it doesn't really matter like if you do a bad pressure who cares if you move on cold call like lost the roof or you've damaged just teacher student relationship or you've you know it it like unfolds in front of your very eyes that you've made a student feeling incredibly embarrassed or self conscious or like it's a much harder more sophisticated technique to get right. It's like and it's not about getting it right all of the time but I do think people who sort of advocate this idea that just if you're cold calling their you know cold call equals good just haven't spent enough time in classrooms watching how how it works, how difficult it is, how nuanced it is. Pick a stick every three minutes is not necessarily a recipe for success. No, and there's lots of advice about the reason you should call call is to keep kids on their toes. I'm like, not really. Yes, it's part of building accountability to learning, but you do that through the all-student response system. You do that by everybody's going to write. Now everybody turn and talk. Now everybody do this. And then you use call call to sort of secure success for everyone. You use call call to highlight great ideas. You use call call to really build up your learners. You use call call to get a diversity of answers. You use call call to show the students that I was listening to what you were saying. I'm really looking at your white boards. Like I really know you and I'm really interested in your ideas. Yeah. Is there anything else with that? Well, it's not the priority. Because of the foundations or the preconditions, it's because it's not an all-student technique, like there's often all-student techniques that you would do to set the scene for then call calling with discussion, turn and talk, writing and so on. Is there anything else? Yeah, I think it's just not, I just think it's not the priority until yeah, until you could hand on heart say, you know, across our classrooms, all students are engaged in lots of opportunities to respond. Everybody's thinking, doing, talking, writing. You know, at that point, I think it's really useful to look at where call call sort of fits. And for the vast majority of schools, it just wouldn't be my sort of go-to, which people are sometimes surprised by because they see me using it in the professional learning I run. I'm very you know, structured in how I run it. I teach about it all the time, and I talk about the fact that it's really important. I just think it requires so many, so many foundations. I think of it as kind of like cherry on the cake stuff, right? And building those foundations, I think, is super difficult. Yeah, so that would be perhaps a takeaway there, and we know lots of schools across lots of systems now are starting to think about how do we codify means of participation, check in front of standing and so on. So perhaps a takeaway there is to think about those pre-conditions. What would be the pre-conditions in your school, within that technique to be something that would be useful, as an added value? Yeah, and if we are going to implement it, if we are going to implement it in environments where we don't have lots of data about what kids are thinking. So if we're going to implement it in classrooms where we don't have everybody writing everybody talking, we're really going to want to drastically lower the complexity of what we're co-calling kids for, at which point I'm not sort of sure what purpose it serves other than to sort of build accountability to listening. But at that point, I would say, well, if you're not getting kids to sort of all rehearse what they think, and you don't have good information about how the kids are traveling, the best bet for mine would be to drastically lower the complexity of what you're asking kids to do, and only co-call students about things that they already know. Yeah, because otherwise, I don't, I just wouldn't be my go-to. Yeah, and I think if co-call for me, it's co-full is about seeing thinking. As opposed to if it's just about participation and engagement, wouldn't you go for a coral response or a gesture or something, again, where it's all students? But I think that's that's a whole other, you know, podcaster around decision-making, but I think sometimes I see co-call being used, I think you said before, keeping students on their toes, where there's just a surface level something or a single word response it's going to come because it's being used for that, like are you on task? Come back to the task, and I don't see that as the function of co-call. And I think in that example, you just gave, it starts to bleed into a behavior management. Correct. Yeah. technique very quickly, right? That's not it. Yeah. Which we've all done before, we've all co-called a kid who we knew wasn't listening. We're like, "Jaden, what did you think about the book?" Yes, you weren't listening, didn't think you were. Thank you, Jaden. Next, we'll listen the next time. And we know that's, you know, a dangerous place to be. I guess, or related to this whole topic of like, it needs to build on everybody participating. I also think that it therefore should never be or need to be random. So one problem, I think, with how a lot of people have codified co-call in the past is that sometimes it's kind of unclear how the method of selection happens. So it'll say like, co-call is picking on a non-volunteer. And it says, you know, make sure kids have a chance to practice or rehearse, and they talk to a person. But when it comes to actually selecting the student, a lot of the guidance all of a sudden gets quite vague. And it doesn't say, are you selecting it based on like, what? Like, are you choosing a student? Is it teacher selection, or is it lottery by like a spinning wheel with kids name, on it, or is it like pulling a student's name out on a stick? So I think there's like, in my mind, to very, very distinct practices here. And if schools want to do one or the other or do both I think, you know, that's up to everybody to decide. My view though is that we should never conflate the two. So we need to think about teacher selection co-call and then randomised co-calling. Now teacher selection co-call ultimately is the teacher making a judgment about who to call on under what conditions and when and to answer what question versus the teacher asks a question and then uses a random method of selection. You know, I feel like I will die on this hill, probably on my own. But we do talk about this a lot. I will die on this hill. I just cannot see how equity can be achieved by randomising anything in instruction. I am waiting for somebody to explain to me what the random aspect adds or what randomisation adds because in my head I can't get it either. But do you think, and there's books that have been written on this, I think there's research that is, you know, maybe misconceived sometimes. But I think that people acclate pick a non-volunteer with randomisation and they're not the same thing, right? Picking a non-volunteer is just saying picking somebody ideally very strategically who is not volunteering. It's not saying it should be random and you never know and they never know who will be chosen because don't you want to know? Isn't that the only person who's given me a kind of insight which I can see is valuable is Dylan Williams. I was talking to him about this a couple of years ago and I'll tag Dylan in this episode, hopefully he can listen and then let me know if I've got this right. Right, seem to recall that he said in his sort of seminal formative assessment work in the UK in the 90s that the main reason that he could see, like the main argument that he could see for randomising was that it was very clear that the students had a perception that if my teacher's choosing who they're calling on, then the students could perceive that they're picked on. So isn't that the student perception, right? Right. Yeah. And that kind of made sense to me, right? Like if we're doing something and the students perceive that you're picking on me or you've asked me three times and you haven't asked him and it's like I kind of get that. But that's okay. You just explain it to students. I mean, this is like a form of madness because if we let the student perception drive how we enact it, then I think we are behaving in line with a juvenile's conception. Of fairness. I find with the fact that an 11-year-old might think to themselves, oh, that's not fair. There's the same way that my nine-year-old would think, oh, that's not fair. If a child was given, I don't know, like a lolly because their diabetic and she didn't get one. Like children perceive that fairness means everybody gets the same. But where the adults in the room, like we don't have to subscribe to that view and we can explain to students that everybody gets what they need. And so yes, there are times where one student might be asked a different thing to you or a student might be asked a question and you won't be or you might be asked a question and people won't be. But I don't think we solve for that problem by randomizing who we ask. I just, it just doesn't stick with, it just doesn't stick for me. Yeah, that's interesting. I hadn't heard that from Dylan and I think that's the really fair, you know, comment. But I think that's also solved through adequate sampling, right? Rather than random sampling, it's solved through adequate sampling. So if we go to a bunch of students for a particular question, the ones student that we might want to be checking more often does not feel like they're being targeted either. And isn't it also solved for with the all student response system? Like if you have everybody does the thinking or everybody shares with the person next to them, why they think Wilbert is crying here in the book? Let's just take a moment. Like why is Wilbert crying? Okay, share that with your partner. When the teacher then uses that data in the room to pick on students, it's not going to sound like they're being picked on because the teacher will literally be saying, Alice, you had a fantastic time. I love the word you use this word distressed. Can you share with the club like no student could listen to that level of sort of teacher engagement? And he, oh, my teacher's picking on me. So I think it's also solved for by using the data in better ways. No, it's not a test, right? It's sort of a test like, oh, I'm gonna catch you out with being wrong. It's as much celebrating great thinking, great responses. Totally. And I think if we are just skipping the whole foundational work and we're just going to picking on kids randomly at various times, well then, yeah, you might need sticks because it probably will feel like you're picking on them because they weren't prepared. And we're putting them on the spot. They shouldn't be put on the spot. And that goes for adult learning, by the way, right? Like the teaching that I do now is predominantly, well, it's all with adults. I would never in a professional learning session just call on someone to share an answer without them rehearsing thinking. So if I'm not doing that with 30, 40, 50, 60 year olds, why would I be doing that with eight year olds? And I think students feeling like they're being picked on isn't that the other end of the argument too, where only volunteers are being heard? It's the same thing, right? I'm just the other end of the spectrum. Okay, we probably need to stop talking about this. Anything else on that? This reminds me, we had listeners will know this by now, but we had an episode the other week that was on slides. And I feel like these two topics together, it's just making me think we've got all wells not in '84. And this is like Jones and McLean, 2026, where the next dystopia is just clicking through slides and every three minutes calling a stick out of the job. That's the next, the next thing we should be worried about. All right, shall we stop any other thoughts? I guess, yeah, just my last sort of, yeah, I guess my last comment will be that I hope, anyone listening to this who sort of uses sticks or who does randomize call calling, I guess please don't hear this as a sort of personal critique. But I do think it is really, really important that almost everything we do that teachers are backed in to use their professional judgment, they're now, they're wisdom, they're knowledge of their kids. And so often I see a jar of sticks being the tail that's wagging the dog, right? And, you know, I think teachers sort of tell me that they fake the stick, that they pull a stick out and then say another student's name. This is some form of improvised nonsense. We don't need this. We don't. I hate the purpose of having the stick in the first place. If you're then going, I'm actually going to use my professional judgment here, which is what you should have been allowed to do in the first place. And on the point of teacher bias, which I completely understand, teachers are worried. I think, well, if I don't use the sticks, I might be missing kids. You know, a really simple, you know, if you've got a seating plan, a really simple sort of scan of your seating plan to just, you know, holding it in your hand and who haven't I called on? Or a really simple sort of system where you just check yourself to make sure that you're getting to enough kids. Or, you know, pull five or six or seven or eight sticks out at a time and have a quick scan. Is there anyone there that slipped under the radar for me today? - Mm-hmm, you know, I think there are risks to yes, teacher selection and they're really around that kind of teacher bias. But again, I think just forget call call for a second and come back to the all student response systems. Everyone in low stakes, lots of rehearsal, lots of practice, we're going to rove like hell, use lots of proximity to get a lot of information in the room. And from there, I feel like call call kind of takes care of itself. Like it's just not a hard technique once we've got that amount of student data in the room. So we'd love to hear from you, we'll see about that. We'll share the email at the end. We absolutely love to hear from you. I think lots of schools are sort of evolving their thinking on this. Yeah, I think that's it. - All right, time's up. You know, one thing we probably should have defined is what we're talking about when we say sticks. It's not tweaks off the ground. It's not kindling for the bonfire. It's icy poll sticks, right? There'll be schools that they're like, well, we don't use sticks. What are sticks? What are you talking about? - There might not be somebody from overseas who's just driven their car off the road at the idea of the word icy poll as well. - What do you call them? - Popsicle. - Popsicle. - I'll say paddle pop sticks either, 'cause that's like very Australian. Okay mate, let's cut the cells off. We're going to segue to one good woman. In this segment, we tell you about one woman in education. We think everyone should know about follow and learn from. Jones, who is your one good woman for cold call? - Yeah, so for this episode, I want to give a shout out to Elise Daley Moore. So DA-L-L-L-I-M-O-R-E. Elise is an associate professor of communication studies at Northeastern University. Importantly, maybe important to note not in an education faculty. And Elise and her colleagues, Julie Hurtinstein and Marjorie Platte have done a really interesting research on cold calling. We will link to this research in the show notes, well worth a look. Interestingly, they carried out their research with graduate students. I think I see sort of Daley Moore references used to talk about cold calling in the classroom all the time. I think just to be wary that this research was carried out in sort of discussion based graduate classrooms in sort of accounting and business degrees and other things. But yeah, really interesting research to looking at students' comfort levels with participation and that cold calling actually increased their comfort with participation. There's a really interesting sort of commentary in the research on gender divides. So to look at interesting findings on gender divides. But yeah, Elise Daley Moore and her colleagues, Julie Hurtinstein and Marjorie Platte check out their research some really interesting reading there. - What a great shout out. I might do a little bit of a dive into some of that as well. I'm to notice as Jones, anything from you. - Just that we will also link this in the show notes, but I've written a blog on cold call specifically. It's called the blog is titled Cold Call, Teacher Lead or Lottery. You can imagine what I'm gonna argue in there. But after today's topic, I think if you were just looking for a downloadable, beautiful, beautifully kind of design reading to do with your staff, that's freely available on my website. And it's a pretty good one just mounting the case for lots of teacher, judgment and decision making in cold calling. Now, McLean, I'm supposed to throw to you for notices, but you have written I am without notice. - Yeah, my head feels very empty. I don't want to have anything to announce. I don't want any more responsibility. I am without notice. So shall we wrap up? - Let's do that. - Okay. This episode was recorded on the land of the Warrangery. We were on Warrangery and Warrang People's of the Cooler Nation. If you've got an observational insight and education, you'd like us to explore who would love to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Until next time, bye, Jones. - Bye, McLean. (upbeat music)