On Abuse, Power and the Guru Myth with Uma Dinsmore-Tuli

[Music] Hey, I'm Dr. Lauren Topop and this is a grateful life podcast. I'm a clinical psychologist and yoga teacher of over 20 years with a passion for health, healing, happiness and awakening. As the founder of the Yoga Psychology Institute, I believe that yoga provides an exquisite map to navigate this thing we call life. So whether you're new to yoga, meditation, a seasoned practitioner, a yoga teacher or a mental health professional, you've come to the right place. I'm so glad you're here. Now before we dive into today's episode, invite you to take a moment with me to pay our respects to the Indigenous custodians of the lands, the land that you're on now, wherever you are in the world, and the land that I'm on here on Bungaland Country in Australia, and to all those who tend to the earth, air and waters globally. And to honour the long lineage of yoga seekers and teachers who have shared the wisdom of yoga over thousands of years stemming from the lands that we now call India. Without whom, we would not be here today, sharing this conversation. So much gratitude. This podcast is for curious humans fascinated with yoga, psychology, mental health, happiness, embracing the imperfection of being human and living a good life. Thanks for being here. It means the world. It starts small, a teacher who tells you rather than asks you. A little too much praise when you fall in line, a little too much silence when you don't. And most of us have felt that and just shrugged it off. But my guest today has spent years mapping exactly where those small moments can lead, and what to do before they get there. Uma did small tour, Lee, is one of the world's leading voices on cyclical wisdom, yoga nidra, and the rematriation of famine and power. She's the author of six books, including Yoni Shakdi, a woman's guide to power and freedom through yoga and tantra. In this episode, we unpack 13 warning signs of abuse in yoga communities, things like disrespect for other approaches, contingent flattery, secret teachings, and the spiritual bypassing of sexual harm. And Uma is really clear. These signs aren't only present in the most extreme cases, the same small seeds show up in ordinary classes and trainings too. We also explore Uma's nine calls to action, practical, doable things that any of us can do when we notice harm. And honestly, I was surprised to hear from Uma that I was the first person to ever ask her to speak about these nine calls to action. To me, these were so important. Now, this episode is a difficult lesson in places. It's also, I think, a really important one. So thanks for joining me here today. Before we get into today's conversation, a quick reminder about the two mental health or yoga trainings running this year. Now, this training exists for yoga teachers who know that most of the people on their mats are there for mental health reasons, whether they've said it out loud or not, and want to hold that space well and safely. It's for teachers already working in specialised mental health settings. It's for teachers and studios, gyms and offices who are quietly supporting their students' mental health every week, sometimes without even realizing it. It's for teachers in training who want this grounding early, right from the start of their teaching career. And it's for yoga teachers who are also mental health professionals working out how their clinical training and their yoga teaching actually fit together. So the online training begins on the 16th of September, 2026, or spend six months together going deep into the world of yoga or mental health. Or come and join the hybrid training. You'll start the online component straight away, and then we'll meet in person for a weekend in October here in beautiful Malibu and near Bahrain, Australia. And whether you're a yoga teacher or not, if you haven't already, you can find my favourite Spotify playlist for nervous system regulation at www.yoga.com. It's the playlist that I turn to when I'm feeling a little out of balance myself when I need a gentle way back home to myself. And I'd love to share it with you. You can find it at www.yoga-institute.com/join. Alright, let's dive in to the episode. Uma, in this moment, what are you grateful for? What am I grateful for? I'm grateful for so many things. It would take me a long time to tell you, I'm fundamentally grateful for having been on this planet for 60 years and still being hail and hearty. A lot of my, my good temper is on here. One reason or other. So I'm just glad to be present and alive. I live in a very beautiful place and I have meaningful work and it gives me joy every day. And I'm very grateful for my river that I live very close to a beautiful river called the Fruim, who I swim in nearly every day. I love the waters. So I'm grateful for the waters. And for the fact that my waters where I live happen to be clear and fresh and that's unusual in England. It was poisoned by the water companies. I'm not lying. So yes, I'm grateful for the waters. I'm for being in the flow. I'm part of my flow is to be here with you now. So I'm very grateful to be alive well and shearing the flow. Thank you. I'm so glad. So glad that you've joined us here today. Now in our last podcast episode, we talked about yoga, Nidra and that was a beautiful conversation that we had today. We're here to talk about something a little more difficult and a little bit darker and that's abuse sexual abuse in yoga communities. Now there's so many things that we could talk about. There's so many things that we could talk about on this topic. But what I'd really love to focus on is what you've written about in your book, this incredible book that you've written called Yoni Shakti and you've put a preface in the new addition. And you talk about firstly about the 13 warning signals and then you go on to talk about the nine calls to action. So I'm hoping to look at both of those today. But firstly, you wrote this book a while ago and then you republished it with this new section at the front. Why did you add this new section? Why did you feel it was important to add this new section on abuse in yoga? Okay, it's good to get a little bit of history. I finished the book actually in 2012. And in 2012, when I submitted the book, I had, as I finished it, a lot of people were talking to me privately about experiences of various kinds of abuse of behavior in different yoga schools, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, financial abuse, kind of professional coercion and control, various things. And it was quite overwhelming. There was a lot. They knew I was about to publish this book. So when I first published it, I did write quite a powerful forward about the industrial yoga complex. I did a commercial yoga world being really, I called it like an ocean of excruciates. I was quite fierce about it. And my position was very unhappy about this because the book is kind of celebrating all the power and the freedom that comes from practicing yoga. If you happen to be living in a female body. And they were like, you can't, we can't put this book out. And they'd already delayed for about a couple of years. There was all sorts of issues. So I was so desperate to get this book out. And it's so enormous. I think it's quite important for people to is this is quite a large book. This is the second edition. And the new bit, the 70 pages you're talking about is like an additional, but initially the book was about that size. And they were like, we have to get it out now. We don't want to put this ocean of a lake of extrovert, a lagoon, no separate of extrovert. And we're all floating on the topic was quite strong. And they said they did one's book that's in. And there was a danger that the book wouldn't actually come out. So what I was not, I didn't name anybody at that point. I just described this situation and we kind of removed that bit and just put some stuff in at the back end. So I colluded with kind of sort of censoring what I said. I colluded with that because I was actually concerned this book that I'd spent so long writing was never going to get published. So it went out in 2014. And shortly after that, the yoga school that I had been most closely associated with for a long time. And my family were really closely involved. My mother-in-law was a swami, you know, a monk in this particular ushram. There was a huge investigation in Australia and a rock mission of inquiry into within this yoga organization. And it all came out. And it was actually quite, it was, it's huge. And what happened was I really needed to update the book, you know, because clearly we made public statements removed ourselves from any association with this organization and did quite a lot of work. But I never actually changed anything in the book. And so you'd reference them in the book, had you? Oh, yes. Of course I had. Yeah. A lot of really great stuff. Yeah. So I learned lots of things that were very valuable. And I represented them in ways that was more suitable for cyclical living and menstrual consciousness and work if you were postnatal or parimetopause. So I changed the things, but I was, I credit on it them and used a lot of their very useful textbooks. So what happened was this book. And I'd also referenced some other organizations. what happened in 2020. So I mean, I prevaricated about updating it. I kind of it was painful for me because I was involved with them. And I was like, I will get to come to it. I tend to procrastinate things quite a bit. So eventually what happened was quite shocking in that in about in 2020 at the beginning of 2020, I received a call from a woman who had experienced extreme harm. Her and and people close to her had experienced extreme harm in a yoga organisation called the Atman, part of the Atman Federation of yoga schools. And she said that she had found out about them because I had listed them in in Yoni Shaqti. And she considered that to be an endorsement because the most actively feminist and supporting a women's power. So she thought that if this school is a Danish branch of this gigantic international organisation, she thought that because I didn't I'd mentioned it, they'd endorsed it. I'd endorsed it. And so then it became very urgent, a very urgent process that I had to issue like corrections and an update and do all the stuff I hadn't done about the original yoga school. So like I did that in 2020, you know, which as you probably remember was a time when it got down. And I just like went for it. And I wrote a whole extra piece at the beginning named all the names I hadn't named before took it on the chain worked with the survivors of this organisation. And it was them who helped me create a set of warning signs. And the intention was to clarify that I did not endorse these organisations and that I knew what had happened. So I had I felt like I had to name all the names. So I named 13 different organisations in the yoga world. By then gave all the evidence, caught papers, investigative journalism, testimonies from the survivors. And the intention was at the request of the survivors to make sure that it didn't happen again. Like the harm was so, or it was so there was he there was trafficking. It was right. There was there was all sorts of horrible things. I mean, really shocking. I mean, it is no longer shocking to me, which is frightening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this was particularly terrible. And though that organisation is actually the subject of a really big Apple TV documentary called Twisted Yoga, that organisation subsequently was investigated and the guy is now in prison. But yes, that's how it happened. That's why I put it out. So I put out this to like big facts and we changed the colour of the so the second edition has a yellow spine. If you've got an order to do 2014, it will have a red spine. And it has a whole section at the front, like about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like about that much of it is brand new. So I then put out that so people who had the original one could get the updates. So basically it named the names and it gave warning signs and calls to action to prevent future harm and to help people see that this was a systemic problem. It wasn't just about one. Yeah, about one individual or once, but I felt how to do it. Like, more like words was and it had been brewing. If you think about this, I've finished the original book in 2012 and I knew then I knew then and nobody believed me, of course, in 2012. It was before me to think it was before me to and this was sort of like the me to a yoga. Yeah, but it happened before the general me to and then I had to go back and do it all over again. And I'm still going on about it. So I'm incredibly glad to have the opportunity to amplify this because it's still an issue because people need to know about this and we can reach a harm, but only if people are educated and informed. And I was thinking as you're saying that like it hasn't stopped at happening. But I think what this book does do for us is give us a bit of a roadmap to be able to identify when things are going on and then what to do about it when we learn about it. And that's really what I want to want to get into today. Yeah. So how about we go into these 13 warning signals, these patterns of abuse and the warning signals that we can say because I think it can be when you're in it, it can be very difficult to see them. But also when you're on the outside and looking in when these things come to light, it can also be very difficult to understand what's what's going on. So let's go through your book. You start with number one is disrespect for any other way. Talk to us about the talk to us about that. Yeah, that's a warning sign. Yeah. Is what it means is that will people will say if you ask about another kind of approach, they'll just go no, no, no, no. They'll be either be really rude about the individuals who promote that approach. Well, they'll just deny that it's actually a useful for example, when I practice you're going to do with the satan under you're going to do people. I remember discovering there were other ways to do it. I will let this think what I rest is there's a different approach over here. This is very helpful. Look, the Himalayan and they just said, no, that is not your Gnidra. They're just very disrespectful about it. And I'm sure you've seen it in other people teaching us and you know, and they go, no, no, you don't want to do it like so well, like because I I used to go around to a lot of different yoga schools and would I'm interested as a you know, as a researcher in comparison. I'm working on your way, but that's a big sign because if they're disrespecting other people, it's because they think that they are the way to choose in the light. And that could be problematic. Yeah, that there's a lot of arrogance that's there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I think that's overtly arrogant and sometimes it's more subtle like it's there's there can be this kind of humbleness, but it's a fake humbleness that this actually is the way. That's a very popular approach, isn't it? It's like, well, yes, well, they don't really know what they do. Or are you much better? And that's a foundation of all sorts of things like you know, it connects there. It also erodes people's capacity to choose themselves, what might suit the better by just disrespecting any other way. Yeah. Okay. Number two, elitism and contingent flattery. Okay, it's kind of connected to the disrespect for other other. They're all sort of connected, but contingent flattery is that you'll get you'll get some really up lifted. If you're a good girl, you help them maintain the elite position by saying, Oh, yeah, you know, this is the best I've been to Williams. If that makes you feel good, you've got to inquire us to what's going on for you. Because it's contingent. It's contingent on your compliance with their belief that everybody else is parlour rubbish, you know. Yeah. Yes, you're kind of the chosen ones. Yeah, and that leads to some quite disturbing ideas about other people. Yeah. Yeah. That's where it can lead. I think recognizing that it happens and it might not seem harmful for people for you to get praised for for supporting this as an elite organization. But what's that about? It's about enforcing a particular kind of hierarchy. Really, isn't it? And I think it can be difficult to see sometimes because often this was the way that we were raised, right? This idea of you go to school, you're a good girl or you're a good boy when you do the right thing. So it can be so kind of intrinsic in us to seek that praise and to feel good when we receive that praise. But there's a shadow side of it. Yeah, it's really important. What you've said here, I want to just amplify that. You said it's intrinsic in all of us and you pointed back to the kind of education system where you get praise. Often if you if you if you comply with what it is that you've been taught to believe, you don't get praised if you got questions, you get praised, you comply. So that's kind of in built because you get better marks get better grades because systems work. I think they might be changing, but very slowly and very few places. But so it kind of it there's a little I think there's a lot of conditioning that we come with. Yeah, and I'm particularly interested in the conditioning, the wounds that we have as women around things like menstrual shame and sexual shame and body shame and sister wounds and all of that stuff and a lot of this contingent flattery will fit into those wounds like, oh, we're better than everyone else because you can do the thing that's actually really hurting people you can carry on. It's your to me. And she said that. Let's list it. Desire within it was not in implicit because I think it's cultivated. I was thinking here I use that word, but I actually think the word that you use is better this conditioning and conditioned and yeah, holds it. That sense that somehow we're superior. Yeah. And there's a supremacy element here, which fits into much wider systems of imperial behaviors, like white supremacist and colonization and that's the big the macro picture. But all of these warning signs, you start to see how they where they lead. That's where they're warning signs because in themselves, you might think, oh, there's no harm in that. There's no harm in those people thinking no best than everybody else, but that they're kind of is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Number three, secret teachings. Oh, that's a big one, isn't it? So if you stick around with me long enough, I'll give you all the real secret teachings. It's sort of irresistible, isn't it? That there's some kind of hidden treasure, and on your own you get it. If you pass these tests, you know, it's like a kind of treasure hunt, but actually it's not really a treasure hunt, because there isn't any treasure. They just protect, well, they're usually kind of establishing, it kind of is tied in with this elite, and it's usually tied to the supremacy of the individual at the top. So the closer you get to the source of power, and it's a fallacy because, you know, like they, because it's rooted in an idea about scarcity, isn't it? Like you can't get, unless you allow them to do terrible things to you, or you somehow keep shutting down parts of yourself. You're bed in yourself, yeah. Yeah, like your body's screaming, for you to stop doing this thing that really hurts you. Or the suspicions, people often say when they start reading these warnings, they're like, "Oh my God, all these little red flags were waving up." It's a bit like, when people go through kind of experiences with relationships with narcissists or something, you look back, you're like, "Oh, I saw all those red flags, but I didn't even know how many, I just thought they'd sort of be okay." So this idea that they've got some secret teaching that you can get access to, if you do everything you say. Oh yes, or stick around or wear the right kind of beads or whatever it is. I mean, I'm making it like that, but it's like, who's the king? Or do, do, pay for enough trainings, and give them money and stay around. Yeah, so it's often tied into those things. So you have to get the advanced version and the secret teaching, they're in the super advanced, hyper advanced version, and that's going to cost you another ex-bousen whatever it is. Yeah. So it's kind of a certain amount of free labor, right? Like, come, come, come, you get rewarded by the secret teachings. They sort of held out as a little carrot, you know? And you go along. But I kind of try to get people to ask questions about it. So like, who's keeping these secrets? And it's actually powerful. Why do they have to be kept secret? What's the price for receiving the secret teachings? And are you willing to actually pay that price? Okay, so some things are powerful. And you don't want to be handing out like crazy pranayams to people who have become conscious of their own breath. There is a sensible process of, you know, taking your time and gradually accessing different levels of consciousness or or physical competence or compassion or whatever it is that you're doing. You know, but it's just that's not because they're secret and you have to pay to get access to that because you'll need you won't be able to. Like, you can't drive a heavy goods vehicle unless you've learned to drive an ordinary car. It's like that that's sensible. That's like skill acquisition and competence. But this stuff about the secret teachings is there from the beginning like, oh, well, if you pay and go, somebody, oh, you can go on the big intensive retreat with the guru now. You can have all the secret teachings. It's the money and hand over your bodily autonomy and get up in the middle of the night and do all the work that we want you to do. That's the kind of thing I saw in the us drums, you know. Yeah, wow. But I think that distinction is really important and it requires a kind of discernment to be able to see the difference. And I love that you have this question. And you've got these questions in the book as well. Questions. Yes. Yes. To ask for yourself and to ask you a question. It's quite useful. It took a long time to get it right. I bet it did. I bet it did. Okay. Question number four, isolation of dissidents. Oh, well, that happens all the time, doesn't it? What happens to people who question the teacher? Where do they go? They still there. Oh, they'll have been out. They'll have been ousted. They'll be vilified and then they'll be they're isolated by being removed from the community. Gaslit usually told that what they're saying isn't true. And that can be very painful for the dissidents. If you've ever done that kind of thing, a banyoni person at the parties is no, this is not okay. Or even just ask question. If you even raise a question. I mean, and that can be as simple as like physically excluding someone from a space. That's happened to me. No, you're not allowed in here. Or silencing the person or isolating them by. It's connected to the disrespect for other ways because they're showing there might be another way by just asking a question. Like, isn't there another way this? No, the gurus does do it this way. What happens if I'm on my period and I don't really feel like doing that anymore? You know, whatever it is and you start asking questions and usually from my perspective. And I think a lot of the questions are usually to do with like, my body doesn't like this. Or this doesn't work for me. Is there another way to do it? And how people respond to that is quite important. But how they respond to the person who asks the question is also important. And if they've excluded all those people that are asking questions, it makes it easier for them to be in charge. And that is. And you see in political systems where the dissidents have pushed out or put in a gulag or something. Or you have, I have like, you know, you see it in all kinds of systems. You're short in the 50s in the United States of America with the McCarthy stuff. You know, like anybody who raised that, you just, you just imprison them or silence. And I think what makes this really difficult is when either you're dependent on the organization financially. Like maybe you work for them or you're dependent on them socially. Like I think so often we, you know, it feels beautiful to be part of a community, to be part of something. And if we speak up, we risk losing our, maybe our job, but losing our friendships, losing our community, losing our kind of meaning that we've made in the world and how things work. It's complex. That's really complex because it taps into every human's need to belong. It really is. We're all craving belonging. We just want to belong. And a lot, if you think about it, a lot of people who end up in, I mean, that kind of, a lot of these organizations are cults. And there's a whole really huge scholarship and activism around cults. And that's that that's profound, considerable people like Uncle Richter. I've done a lot of work on that and set up a, a deep, the decult organization that was rooted in New Zealand actually has done a lot of work. And there's a lot of work about that. And I'm, I'm really a tiny voice here because that's not my expertise. But what I am observing is that this deep need to belong. Can we be very vulnerable? And so I know that there were people, for example, within the Atman Federation schools who were in that whole process of being completely, completely abused and harmed at the time. And I actually read this book and was still in there and couldn't believe it. Or if they believe they had to stay because their entire social and emotional support network was now by members of that, that cult. So if you try to leave. You're completely isolated and that's immensely powerful. We find their way into that kind of organization because they don't feel like they belong in the other world. They don't belong in the Muggle world. So they're often brought out or they've left their job and like, I just can't, I can't function. A lot of people become spiritual seekers part because they don't feel they belong in the straight world, whatever you want to call it. And so they've already had an experience of feeling isolated and weird. It is kid in the school. And so now they find all these other weirdos and we're like, yay, let's all be weirdos together. And you feel it feels nice. I mean, I'm quite about it because that's part of what I've had to do that because it's so dark. But it comes from a series of experiences of being. They're not feeling like you belong. And then it becomes increasingly difficult to say anything that might cause a rupture between you and this structure of social and emotional and spiritual support that can be really nourishing everyone's really lovely. So long as you're behaving yourself. And as you total line. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's often, there can be this underlying trauma that's already there. Oh, yeah. And you saw that when you read the evidence of the compilation of evidence that was put up during the World Commission of Inquiry in 2014. I mean, that's not in that ashrams. It wasn't just about those ashrams, it was about institutional child abuse in Australia. And what you saw heartbreakingly was sometimes the same survivors from that Catholic school over here where the priests were that those pedophiles. Those people were in that situation. then they ended up in the ashram because there sort of end up being a hard, hard, wired or conditioned that that's the kind of structure that supports you. So they go from one to the other and it's like a serial set of experiences that end painfully with this sense of being excluded from that community if you speak up. So people stick around for years. Yeah, it's heartbreaking. It is kind of what fits in with us in a way. I feel they kind of each of these kind of lead on from each other in a way. You know that the fifth one is inner circles and power struggles. Yeah. And this is like the deepest sense of belonging that you want to get into the inner circle and then you'll be safe because of the source of power. Yeah. And this is how patriarchy works as well. Like they think that they're a bit of the power if we get close to daddy and do what we're told. It's a similar setup that there's an inner circle like the king and the inner circle and the closer you get to that and what you see is there's a kind of sometimes they're they seem informal. You know they just oh well they're those people are friendly with that guy. It's usually a guy but not always. So but sometimes it's actually structured like you see people with different color clothing. You know so while we're in the national war garrou the kind of brown color but then the ones all the outside will be white and you can kind of see a progression or that you know there are different kind of headgear. So there's signs and symbols like a like a military ranking. Yeah right. Not actually separate. It's the same kind of thing. So the kernels and the and the and the and the major generals and the you know they're the one and everyone wants to get close to that but at least it's explicit in a military ranking because people got strike. But sometimes it's not explicit and there's this sense that they're you know then they kind of push people pushing other people out because if you're in the inner circle there's only so much room in the inner circle. You can't have everybody in it by definition. It's not something that everyone's but are those people being friendly to each other? That's the question isn't it? Do their work relationships demonstrate a sense of equality and fairness within the organization? Do I trust their integrity? Because like you can see people are jockeying for position and it becomes repetitive and that taps into another room about a wound about like competition and perfection and somehow you're going to get more perfect and more enlightened if you're in the inner circle but you're in the inner circle. You see it was all connected. It's it's interconnected. Yeah. Okay. Number six and I feel like we could spend probably a whole podcast episode. You spend a whole podcast on each one of these. So I'm moving a little bit quicker than then maybe I would like to but I really encourage anyone who is interested in this to get your hands on the only Shakti and go deeper. Number six discipline and punishment. Oh yes. Discipline and punishment. So discipline is held up for something often in schools in yoga schools particularly that's related to top us then that's a yogic quality of like effortful discipline and abjanga like abjanga just keeping on keeping on and so it's held up as a virtue and thereby anybody you can't keep up with that is weak and you get punished for it either by being excluded from the thing oh you can't do that practice you're weak and and it's you have to ask things like is the level of discipline that's required is that actually healthy for me you know because sometimes it involves things like sleep deprivation obviously you know a lot of my work is about rest the other big book I wrote is about the power of rest and the and I like one of the things you see about the discipline and the punishment is to do with disciplining the body very fiercely and a lot of those disciplinary methods are specifically hot ones those in female bodies where we're sick equal beings yeah we need yesterday we bleed or if we're in the middle of the paramanopause we might not have slept very well at night and so it's not appropriate to get up and forth looking the morning but there's a sense of weakness and letting the side down and our students frightens of the teacher's response to insufficient or inadequate practice there's a sense of that you get punished in all kinds of ways like you don't might necessarily get singled out and given a slap but you'll be like well you know you can't come to the advanced stuff or it's quite it can be quite insidious but it taps into something that we're conditioned to think is virtuous yeah which is rooted in all kinds of systems including in protestant work ethic which was the engine that drove colonialism in some places you know like these things are not separate and at its essence what it's doing is encouraging us to override our own wisdom to listen to somebody else rather than what feels true and right so our bodies yeah precisely and it's off it's you're taught you're taught to consider that any calls you might be getting from your body are kind of sums up a sort of weakness a frail to be practiced your way out of rather than assign your wise that you're listening yeah yeah I mean there's a balance there's like there's things that are beneficial for us like getting enough sleep and doing things that help support our health and well-being and like capacity to be a decent human but then there's there's an overdoing it and that's what you see is like this push that's a kind of it's a kind of coercion you know yeah it's an overriding of our own needs and knowing yeah and it to me comes back to this word that I said before around discernment and we discern when when to have the discipline the toughness to practice and when do we need to go gently until the end that just done and that yeah it's not really it's not really a neutral thing because actually a lot of what I started to see was that some of those scores were interested in in manipulating menstrual cycles and holding up this station of mences as an a spiritual achievement so it's kind of related to the discipline and punish stuff so so it literally overrode the natural cycles of the body by encouraging people to practice so hard to lose so much weight to get so little sleep that the I can if you do that to yourself you'll stop you'll stop bleeding you'll stop your cycles and that was held up to be in a achievement so that's very profound physiological biological overriding by demeaning and shaming the natural cycles of the body and that was a key a very powerful key is to house so many young women could be controlled because yeah there's actually a big there's a big research project going on at the minute with the woman called Ruth Westaby who's a yogic scholar of yoga and yoga schools and she's investigating different approaches in salvation traditions to the manipulation of menstruation and when you're so malnourished that you you can't think clearly either can you you'd be much more susceptible to manipulation and very well established systems of controlling humans oh yeah and obviously if you're in residence with people then you're you're much more under that control but even people going to weekly classes and things can can be still noticing some of these warning signs yeah absolutely okay number seven unsustainable imbalances yeah well this is about the balance between your daily life and the amount of time that you're expected to devote to your spiritual practice so this is particularly relevant if if if you're in an ushram or a residential situation then people are in charge of your schedule and it can be you can choose for it to be to you devote that that time to that practice and you're there for that reason but if you're trying to lead an everyday life and you're obliged to do certain kinds of sadden our practice that go on for hours then I take that to fairly unhealthy balance and the question is do I have time in my life for this practice and is it supporting my life or is it taking over my life and that's what I could see people like oh I have to do this unless I do that practice then it becomes very rigid you know I told at the beginning I really grateful to be in service to the flow which means a capacity to adapt and adjust and when you start feeling that you're not able to do that it makes people very anxious you know yeah yeah I used to be bringing and like how much of your life is not devoted to this thing that you're no longer in charge of because you have to like demonstrate that you've done it all yeah and that's a great question that you have here do I have enough time for this practice is is the practice I'm learning supporting my life or is it taking over my life and there's that discernment again yeah yeah okay number eight ridicule and silencing yeah that's one of the tools that's used when they isolate the dissident actually. you just, you ridicule anybody who asks any questions, you know, and you silence people, and you can see that now, and it's a technique that's used quite often in schools. You've probably been in a classroom in a school where, you know, somebody's asked a question, and that child is ridiculed. They're made to feel ashamed for even asking the question. What sort of question is that? Why are you asking that? You stupid. Don't you get it? No, we don't fucking get it. What would you want me to get? You know, I've been in a classroom where we don't say that. I've been kind of a little class. Like it takes a lot to be able to say that. No, I don't get it. Question to all the parties. And so I think we're kind of, our educational methods can make it very easy for us to think that kind of behaviour is okay, but the question you have to say, like, what are they afraid of? Why are questions inadmissible? What is it they're hiding? Like if someone can't go, well, that's, you know, I have a general response to questions like, the only silly question is the one you didn't ask. That's when I run trainings. I'm like, ask away, because usually the expansion of understanding as a collective only happens if you welcome questions, curiosity. That's the little driver for any kind of learning and it's basically shutting that down saying, no, don't ask questions. And we will ridicule you if you do and then we'll just silence you. Because we're going to say, yeah, it's very difficult to speak up to that. If somebody ridicules you, if somebody like rolls their eyes, when you ask a question, even if it's just a subtle thing like that, to have the confidence in yourself to say, actually, I don't understand, can you explain it? Like that is not a, that's taken me till I'm really 50 to be able to do that, to be able to say, actually, I don't understand what you're talking about. Can you explain it? And look, like risk looking like you don't know what you're talking about. Exactly. Yeah. It's very important. I feel that it's a warning sign. You see that quite a lot. Even, I mean, I get, you know, obviously, I get reports from all over the world from people go, oh my god, I went to this training with whoever it is that's hugely respected. And I'm going, oh yeah, what happened? They took the freaking piss out of me. I asked a question about this and they're like, oh yeah, you scan an avalan lady with your funny elbows or something. I'm like, they did what? You know, like so there's often not just individual ridiculing, but ridiculing of whole groups of people. And we know where that kind of leads. Yeah. And it happens all the time because they're promoting a particular method that certain kind of people could do well. They're going to ridicule people who can't do it or who asks questions about why they can't do it. Like this, you know, I'm bearing in mind that most, the yoga, I'm still going specifically about yoga, but you can see it replicated, you know, that a lot of the yoga practice is designed for male bodies. And if you haven't done breasts or a menstrual cycle or, or, or, you know, elbows that work in a different way than the male, it was then, then you will ask questions. And it's not really very helpful to be ridiculed, but it will make you feel small. And then you've got a choice, haven't you? Either you keep on asking the questions. Or you just stop and you do what you're told or you leave or you leave. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Number nine, no boundaries, no consent. Yeah. I don't know what to say about that, but often in these schools, there is no sense of any agreement about where the boundaries are. There are no group agreements before people start teaching or before they enter into some of these residential settings. And you have to ask yourself, like, is everybody comfortable in this teaching place? Are people struggling? Are they being pushed beyond boundaries that are comfortable and easy? Am I willing to do whatever they say? These are the questions. Can I say no to this now? Because this is the thing you can say, you can say no, but people might not listen to you. And would I be able to say no to this if I continue to spend time in this environment in other states of mind? Do I feel safe? You know? And then when you ask yourself, what roles do I see the teacher adopting in this place? Often you see the teacher adopting the kind of roles that are about pushing people's boundaries. We will talk about that. Or they pushed me. I got to this pose I couldn't get to before. So it's sometimes considered to be some sort of a virtue that someone will push you. And okay, there's an argument for being in a space of growth where you do things that you haven't done before or you encounter ideas that are new to you, but there needs to be consent about what's actually what you're agreeing to. And sometimes it's so murky. And then you might be in some altered state. You could be in some blissful state because of some praniyama that you've done or some deep relaxation that you've done. And then they'll come in when you're in that state. And you might have been able to say no to it before, but you can't now. So in some of the worst situations I saw, people were trafficked and held in environments where they couldn't get out. And at the beginning they would have gone no, but you know, after seven days without much sleep in these very odd conditions, you'll probably say yes to anything. It should be confused. So you need to see what's going on. Yeah. Horrifying. It is, but it's good to see there is, I think this is a continuum from the truly horrifying situation I just described of being trafficked to a place you don't even know where you are and how it's prisoner. You can't see all about that in twisted yoga and what that's about. And being even in a 90 minute class where someone lords it over everybody else takes you through a really intense practice and you find yourself doing things that you would normally not that you'd say no to. And then you can hurt yourself or you can feel bad about it afterwards or all kinds of things can happen, but that's not so horrifying. But the reason the horrifying things can happen is because people think they're not so horrifying every day things are kind of okay. So I can draw a line further up here before people get over to here. Yeah. If you can spot that non-aligned. Yeah, that's sort of pushing thing that if you're in a collective it's quite it's quite it's attractive. You know, you want to be and that all ties into all the other things. You want to be long. You want to be part of people who are all doing this together. Isn't it great when we will do it together? You know, because obviously group practice does amplify some benefits of what we're doing. But it can also mean that that the boundaries get very blurred, you know. Oh, I think I need to take a break now and from it, but it's it's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot, but I feel together what we do is when we learn about what goes on. That's like all the morning signs. You can see little seeds of this. Yeah. It's just in a way people talk to you. Yeah. And instead of asking you, I'm using permissive language and making it invitational. They just tell you choice. I mean, it can be something like in in in your Gnidra, which seems like a totally harmless practice, but you know, for years, some people do practice and they're terrified. They're going to do it wrong. And then you mustn't move. You mustn't listen. You mustn't. And you're told this that the other is there's a whole other way to do it. You know, and I think the positive is if you see what those warnings are, you just don't freaking do that. Yeah, you call it out and you walk away. So I, you know, a lot of people who've seen that kind of thing are committed to liberate these are technologies for liberation. And they've got the hands of the oppressors. Yeah. And I use that way. But once you've seen that, you can you can extricate the technologies for liberation and put them to the service of people's freedom. Thank you for saying that. That feels really important to have that. Yeah, that's why I'm doing it. Not so we're all saying it'd be horrible. I'd say go, okay, so if that is so absolutely clearly not okay, what would be good? Let's do the good thing instead. We need to see what we don't want to be in. So we can go somewhere else. That's what I chose to do. And so have many, many others. So that's good. Yeah, that is good. All right. Number 10 prejudice and hypocrisy. Okay, so we have to understand that the personal here is political. There isn't any distinction between people's, you know, personal choices and the political impact of that. And there's quite a lot of deeply ingrained prejudice and hypocrisy within what are names of spiritual communities. So I'm naming things like homophobia, which sometimes don't come out until you push that guru or teacher and you realize they're holding some very prejudicial ideas. And the full of hypocrisy because they're preaching you know, liberation for all. And yeah, but not those people over there. So I think you just have to ask how can that kind of prejudice be and hateful speech be congruent with spiritual practice? You know? And if they're willing to say that kind of thing in public, what are they going to do in private? And it sometimes means people have to hide hide parts of themselves in order to get acceptance. Yeah. Yeah. All right, number 11. I'm going to see if I can pronounce this word properly. Omniscience. Omniscience. Omniscience. Omniscience. You know, it looked it up before the interview. I was like, I'm going to nail this. And then I didn't. Yeah, omniscience. So I let the Omnis presence. Yeah. Omniscience. It's this idea that the guru, all the organisation is somehow all powerful. And that they can see everything you're doing. Like, you'll have a dream and the guru will be in the dream or the teacher will see everything that you're doing or they notice everything. So it's like, you can't get away from it. It's like a huge panopticon. Like, you don't know when they're looking at you, but they're always looking at you. That's how it works. And they know you better than you know yourself. That is one of the ways that that Omniscience gets put on people. They all boys are more enlightened. And that was one of the arguments that came out when you used to. When I started naming these people, people are like, yeah, but they're great souls and they see everything in a different way. They're omniscient. They're all powerful. And so you have to give them leeway to behave like this because they're higher and better souls than there's no soul more higher or better than the other soul. Wow. That's how it is. We're all here with life within us. And so that kind of thing is built in to a hierarchy. And it is to recognise you any privacy or autonomy because the Guru knows everything about you better than you know yourself. It's sort of no way out. It's pretty clever game. That one, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Number 12, abdication of personal responsibility. Okay. So this happens a lot. If somebody's infested a lot of time and effort and money in getting close to those teachers who are in charge, they will then abdicate any kind of personal responsibility. For their own lives and life decisions. And they'll turn to the Guru who choose like who they get married to whether they have children or horrifyingly something I heard recently insist that all the nuns in this particular monastery have its directives. That's my latest discovery. I'm like, oh really? So you abdicate all personal responsibility by deferring the power, giving your power away literally of your body over when you go to sleep over what you think. And that happens. I mean, and I saw that even when all the evidence came out, this, I mean, this is going back to 2014 about the in the Commission of Enquirer. I remember talking to some senior teachers around the world. They're, when are you going to say something? What are you going to say? Or were waiting to be instructed as to what's policy, what's to be towing the party line? But to agree where they could see I said, but haven't you read the evidence are, yeah, but they might not want to believe the survivors or the people who are giving testimony. So they will abdicate personal responsibility and went to their graves. Literally, people went to their graves with that level of abdication of personal responsibility and never made any personal comments or or made any decisions that might run counter to what, you know, the authority that they had wedded themselves to. Yeah, I was telling. All right. Number 13, spiritual bypass, sex, harming and transcendence. Okay. Well, this kind of bypassing is, I think it's sadly really prevalent in the kind of sexual dynamics of some of these where you get a very powerful, often a man, a teacher is very powerful and and and somebody who's really vulnerable. And when seeking spiritual enlightenment and you have to ask who's benefits from these these kind of patterns of sexual relating and who's harmed by them. Yeah. And you and it is sort of saying, oh, it's okay for me to fuck you over because that's a spiritual enlightenment. And that's how some of those things are presented as an initiation. Yeah. A great sacred dick is going to awake everybody's could to lead the up and this and that marvelous. What's an opportunity? I mean, really, I mean, I'm ridiculing it because I think that's that that's a tool that we have. Well, I mean, you're maybe you're joking, but this does happen. I've been really interested in these in the last few weeks that it's this is what's happening. Yeah. All the time. And it will continue to happen. Yeah. And we can name that it's happening. Talk about it. Help people be aware of the fact that it's happening. And then it will stop happening because people will be informing you. You can keep your dick to yourself and your spiritual initiations. But you can see that's not going to happen out of the blue. Yeah. What the grooming going on. Yeah. Yeah. And it takes a while before you get to that kind of place. Otherwise, someone, well, you know, it goes on. And then there's whole structures of elite people with enormous power and money. As we've seen with the Epstein and Deepak Chopper and all these people. And to be no longer surprised about it, doesn't mean that we don't do anything about it. It means we name how that is also happening. You're feeling well, we overschool or in the ushram where everybody goes and then weird stuff happens. And then we'll talk about it. So you just have to ask who's being harmed? Who benefits? And who benefits? And it's pretty clear when you can see who's benefiting from it. It's usually not you. Yeah. Or the other people who are there looking for in lights and one. And I think you've shared a really important word here, which is a route, which is grooming. And I think this word has become more in our language. We now have a word in to describe these things that are happening. When I was young, I'd never heard of that word before. Gruming, I didn't know what a man it was so, I don't know, a more for us like it wasn't something that you could name. Now we have a word for it. I think it is incredibly helpful. And I think this word grooming is what predates a lot of this is what leads leads people to be brought into this. Yeah. And it's happening because there's a kind of foundational level of control that people are if not happy with, they're familiar with it. Because the structures and the institutions and the corporations that run people's lives, I'm, you know, that can give you structure in your life that people have been part of as they were tiny, often in being part of those things involves handing over levels of autonomy, independence, questioning, in order to feed within those environments. And so question everything. Yeah, it's the solution to this cultivate this environment and that involves noticing what's occurring. These kind of grooming things they often like take years. Yeah. But you see structures that are all built in and they're financial and political and, you know, and then there's all the emotional stuff that goes on and so on. So those are the reasons why I'm and I really appreciate that you've taken time to go through them because you, as I said, you can see the little tiny seeds of where the truly horrific stuff grows from. They're the roots and those to come from the same seed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I like that you say question everything. I think that's really important. And that's kind of intrinsic and yoga as well, isn't it? Like to be questioning things. I always like to, like we often go into things with our heart open, which I think is a really beautiful way to approach life. But I always say they heart open, eyes open. You need to keep your eyes open even even in these places that are spiritual and about community and connection and enlightenment and all that stuff. We need to keep our eyes open in those spaces as well. Yeah. And the good thing is, if you do keep your eyes open and you see what you see, you can't unsee it because actually these are not isolated instances. That was my main thrust with the only shatting. The reason I named 13 different organizations and there could be a 113 of them. Yeah. So what you know is that once you've seen it in one place, you can see similar structures everywhere and they're always a structure like this. It's always a hierarchy with the control of the power. But you cannot do this kind of thing if you're working genuinely in things that are friendship and respect because then everyone can see everybody and know on a circle, you know, you're all in the same, on the same level. There was an anybody, you know, that you can't have those kinds of power dynamics. It doesn't work because you'll be called to account by your community. Yeah. So let's move on and talk about that. This has been called to account and these nine calls of action that you have in your book. Now I have found these incredibly helpful and I've been sharing them with lots of people recently as well and I know they have found it really helpful as well because I think sometimes when we. find out about this when we've experienced it ourselves, but when we've also when we've heard about it in our communities, somebody we know, somebody that's speaking up on the internet, we can start to feel a kind of sense of hopelessness and helplessness and what on earth can I do about this? Like it's so big, there's nothing there's nothing I can do, but actually there are things that we can do. So talk us through this is a really long podcast episode we're going today, do you have a little bit more time to keep going? I do. Okay, cool. Yes, I think we can. We can. They do give you a practical things, a practical. Okay. Talk us through your nine calls to action. The first thing is really simple, you just withdraw financial support from any organisation or individual at harms women. You just don't give them your money. Don't sign up for that course, cancel subscriptions, pull it out because we're where economic kind of you know, life blood keeps them away. So just take your money out of it and that's why I ended up being taken to court for this. The money issue was the issue. They didn't deny that what I was saying was true. They said I'd affected their bottom line. Their profits had gone down because I had this particular action is what landed me in court two years defending this rule wasn't available for so long because they said we're proving they brought their finances into the court to show that when I made this call, people actually did it and their course numbers went down. Their student numbers went down. So it freaking works. It works. Yes, it works. There you go. And I'm sorry you had to go through that and that can be an outcome of speaking out. That's why it's so scary. But thank you for doing your backup. But yes, it's just personally withdraw your money. Notice the warning signals, which is why it's good that we've done that. So if you notice the warning signals, you just learn about things like buy standards and beneficiaries because there are people who just stand by and let it go on and there are people who are actively benefiting from it and you can honor your intuition about it. That's the thing, you know, so that's important. You notice those signals. And then you ask questions. The third one, that's what I said, is like it's a summer evil. You just keep asking questions of the teachers, the gurus, people who own studios, people who hire in known perpetrators of abuse, people who give work permits to be put into the country to be predating on that. You know, ask questions. The fourth one is listen, listen to the sisters, the survivors and the whistle blows. Testimony is evidence. People do not make this shit up. Why would they do that? They don't. They don't believe them when they tell you believe them. That's a powerful statement. Testimony is evidence because that that's often what gets called into question, isn't it? Oh, this is just a he said she said thing or do you have any proof of that? But what you're saying is the testimony is the evidence. Testimony is the evidence. You don't need them to give you chapter about the things. You believe people when they tell you these things. And the fifth one is to share what you notice. So you call out harm and then you call it a help. So what does that look like? It looks like telling people what you know and then getting in some support. And I have to say I don't exactly model this because I didn't get a lot to fight and legal help until it was all a bit too late. But you can call it a lot of organizations. I mentioned things like decal or a brilliant organization that help you understand the dynamics of what's going on. And also, dissidents, other people who've left this organization. That's the kind of help you can get. That's important. And support for yourself. Refuse to keep secrets. So if people, if you know something or they've told you something, don't keep that as a secret. Name the names and join up the dots. So this is what I did in the book. Like it's actually this is and otherwise they go, oh, that's just one bad apple. Yeah. You know, that was one bad spot. I mean, no, the whole system is rotten people. It's rotten because it's part of a massive structure that's about coercion control and hierarchies that are replicated in all kinds of places. And it's fundamentally a kind of colonization. Like it's a neuro colonization of our own think thought processes to believe that this is okay. So join up the dots. Then you can see the whole thing. And you know how it works. Center the margins gather in circles. So the people have been excluded to the outside. Put them in the center, but the survivors at the center. You gather in circles. Then you can't put someone up on the stage. You don't have it. I was identified. I'm not a sage on a stage. I'm a guide on the side with you doing this. And the last one is it gets the whole picture, which is to decolonise yoga dismantling harmful systems of oppression that damage everybody. Because if you've seen those systems, what are you going to do? You're going to let them stay there. No. You're going to be doing just even this conversation is part of that awakening awareness so that people in C that these harmful systems are systems that are created by humans. And so it's humans that can take them apart. Yeah. And they're there because they buy into that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what I'm also discovering and kind of playing with Umor's is this idea that we all have a role to play in this. And we all get to do it in the way that works for us. For some people, it's doing what you've done and you've published a book and you've put 13 names in there and you've spent two years defending it. In court. And for other people, it's unfollowing people on social media and talking about it with their friends and doing it on a more quiet kind of level. And I think that it's really important that we all find a way that works for us. So we don't completely annihilate ourselves standing up for all the different abuses that are happening in the world. Yeah. Well, and it's good to end with this sense that there are practical things we can do at every level. Yes. Yeah. Even the most simple thing is like if it doesn't feel good, we just walk a walk away. Yeah. Walk away from it and then reflect and then you're in a position where you're not get yourself out of harm's way and be deeply compassionate and excessively gentle with yourself. Because you can we can have been trying to be really hard and fierce with ourselves the way that they want. You know, we're going that those organisations are with individuals. We're doing that on the inside. So sometimes these things are an inside job. Yes. And to hear that voice, the inner voice that's an internal misogyny and internal colonist, an internal boss figure who's bringing bossing you around. And you're like, where did that voice come from? And that's inner work. And I think it's that level of inner work that brings you into a resonance with other people who are doing that inner work and you can support each other and go, you know, and then you're like, what are they doing? It is mockers over there. Look at that. One you can support collective liberation because it's not enough for like one of us to be free. We keep on doing this to wear all free. Yeah. Yes. On the end. Thank you. So if you're listening in anything I want to learn more about this, do go and get a copy of Numer's book, Yoni Shuttie. And you do also have a free resource for people as well, I believe, on your website. Yes. Yes. There are free resources about those, you can access all those, those some questions and points are available. Yeah. And obviously, you can, and that you can, you can engage in trainings that have different basis, you know. Yeah. So yeah. So that is something that we can all do. We can look for people offering trainings and ways of sharing yoga that are informed by this understanding. Obviously, that is what I do. But I mean, it's just important to know that you can access this information freely. So yes. Yeah. So what's the best way for people to connect with you? The simplest thing is the type my name in and umadinsmoretoolie.com will bring you to a lovely site that has sign posts to all the things that I do. And that's the simple way to find me. Obviously, I'm on social media and support and uplift the voices of survivors. If you have information to share, I'm happy to amplify that. I often amplify and collaborate with people to make sure that their information gets out. But the simple way is my name, because I think I might be the only Umadins more to Lee that I've in the whole world. It's a nice Irish Punjabi name and that will find my site and will lead you to all the yoga nidr and the trainings and the books and that kind of thing. Yeah, read a book. Thank you so much for the work that you're doing in the world. It's incredible. And for making time to come and share this information, I really feel like we all need to hear this. Yeah, I really appreciate that you've invited me Lauren and I really hope that everybody listening has learned something helpful and feels empowered to honour their own intuition and to trust their hearts and to honour the earth and thank you for having me here. I hope it's been instructive and useful for people. I hope that conversation gave you some things to think about and some actions to take to help make this yoga community of ours a safer place to be. And if you're a yoga teacher listening in, then I wholeheartedly invite you to join me for one of our mental health, the yoga trainings this year. We have two coming up. The first is the hybrid training that's open for registration now and you can get started as soon as you sign up and then we meet for the in-person component in my beautiful hometown of Malibu in Australia in October 2026. Or if you're not in Australia or a trip down under just isn't on the cards in October this year, then join us for the 100% online version. We start on the 16th of September and we'll work together for six months with an incredible cohort of yoga teachers from all around the world. All the details and sign up at www.mentalhealthawareyoga.com. And of course if you haven't already done so you can listen to my Spotify playlist for nervous system regulation at www.yoga-institute.com/join. You can find this link as well as all the links mentioned in the podcast in our show notes. A big thank you to Caz for editing this podcast and doing all the incredibly important tasks in the back end to get this episode out into the world. I'm so grateful. Thank you for joining me for another episode of the of great full life podcast and for listening in all the way to the end. If you enjoyed this episode I will be so grateful if you left us a review on iTunes and we'll add it as to your playlist on Spotify. I love to share the goodness and wisdom of all my guests far and wide. Thoughtful reviews on iTunes or following along on Spotify helps us to do just in that. Here at the Yoga Psychology Institute we offer online and in-person yoga and meditation courses and workshops as well as specialised yoga and mental health training for yoga teachers and health professionals globally. You can find us at yoga-sacolityinstitute.com. This podcast is for general informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional advice or training. These consult a qualified healthcare professional for personalised guidance or come and join one of our programs at the Yoga Psychology Institute for professional training. A big gratitude to Gido and Jo for this beautiful music for guesthouse. This is a great full life and I'm back to Laura Taver. you