Oliver Towner: Taking the Reins of a Family-Run Funeral Business

Hello and welcome Mary Listeners here we are for another another episode of an unorthodox CEO I am Steve Pickering CEO of SussexBets and today we are joined by Oliver Towner hello it's not every day do it speak to someone who's been in it but not been in the family business for 150 years and family business stretching back 150 years that is that is last ability I don't even know if that's a word but it sounds good yeah no pressure no oh my goodness 150 years that's that's incredible and I'm thrilled to have Oliver here from Arthur C. Towner limited a funeral directors based in the heart of Hastings yes and let us which we've just speaking as we come in and it's really quite awkward because you say how's business and and how do you say how's business to a funeral directors because if they turn around and go yeah it's really good it's like oh that's sad yeah it's going to be pretty delicate with it so yes so so welcome Oliver thank you before we go any further it says on my notes here just to reach out and say hit that subscribe button because you don't want to miss any future episodes yeah no and and it's building I know our subscribers yeah we're just a micro influence and how but one day we will drop that micro and become an influence hey any influence is yeah fantastic yeah let's have a chat let's have a chat I suppose really what's it like growing up in a family business from your side of things do you remember much as a young yeah yeah I mean I think it's it's a blessing in a curse really I think the the blessing is that you kind of end up with the freedom to almost go and try other things you get the opportunity to go and fail which a lot of people don't in life no so that is is a blessing in a way and in a curse there's always this sneaking thought in the back of your head that I'm never going to get away from this no this is this is going to be what I end up doing no matter what I try and do this is what I'm going to end up doing so you always imagine yourself working in the family business not at all not just so my dad always had a joke that he liked to tell which was he always thought it was going to be the last job he would ever do yeah and ironically it was the last job he ever did yeah and I grew up saying it's going to be the last job I ever do I'm going to do everything else before I do this yes and before you know it here I am here you are so it's funny how it sort of comes and goes swing somewhere else and I tried to get away from it as much I could but in the end of fooling into it and love it yeah absolutely love it so so you did go off and do your own thing yeah so I had a bit of a rough time at school I wanted to be an army medic I got diagnosed as a type 1 diabetic at 16 and so the scholarship people were like no we won't take you sorry about that so I spent my eight levels going I don't know what I'm going to do with my life finished finished my eight levels I spent two years as gap years spent six months working at the family business and then six months sort of in Australia coaching rugby which was amazing and then came back did another year at the family business while applying for drama school then somehow got in yeah did a three year BA honors in acting in London and then spent four years working as a professional actor in London yeah which was amazing it's when you're doing it it's the best job in the world it's when you're not doing it that's that's the problem and then I got to 27 and when this is fun but I don't find it particularly meaningful and also you get to that age where you're like salary would be kind of nice yes sort of on a maybe buy a house at some point and maybe get married and I'd met my now wife then as well and dad was sort of looking to fully retire and I went do a couple of days a week see how I get on just fell in love with it fell in love with the team there and it's just sort of been a whirlwind since then really so I'm interested yeah was that on stage or television a bit of both yeah I managed to get away with only doing the one season of Panto which was an incredible experience honestly honestly it was so much fun I mean getting to go and do performances in really high like special educational needs schools yeah was just such a humbling experience it was incredible it really was and those sorts of experiences will never leave you and it was so much fun yeah getting to do Cinderella oh it's brilliant parts of it were really difficult you know two shows a day kind of things six days a week was nackering but no it was it was amazing but as you say it's it's a job which is brilliant when you've got work yeah but it's you've searched for the net yeah it's really tough yeah and you know what I've got loads of friends still that are in it and doing it and I've got so much respect for the people that tough it out and do it because yeah it can be really rough yeah yeah so back into the family business do you remember your first day on a funeral yeah what's your yeah thoughts back because it's something we don't really talk about isn't it I mean funerals are not no one talks about funerals no no no no no no but do you remember growing up around yeah I mean dad was really open about it he never hid anything from us there would be occasions whereby he would leave work early to come and pick us up from from school yeah half three or whatever yeah and he might have just nipped up to the crematorium to collect some ashes yeah and so he'd sort of pick us up with a set of ashes in the back of the car and he'd turn around and say we're not to low and things like that you're joking he used to have this and then we'd we'd always sort of go back to the office for the last hour of the day these things like that you know I think it's it's it's having a sense of humor without imposing on anyone's dignity is I think really important in what we do yeah could it can be so easy to sort of have a laugh and a joke at someone's expense yes which isn't isn't all right no but it is important for us to find a bit of humor every now and again you know we're not all these sort of vampires wearing black lurking in the dark constantly that you sort of think of when you think of an undertaker but I'm sure they're out there somewhere so what is the job day-to-day how does it work you know and yeah it's really varied yes we're fortunate I mean as you sort of alluded to you know we're 151 years now we've been going which is just crazy to think about it really is yeah and so over that time we've been fortunate enough through a lot of hard work not by me because of any just sort of turned up to the scheme of things but by dad and sort of his dad and his dad and his dad and his dad to build the reputation that hopefully people locally would have heard of and sort of associate with doing a good job really being dependable so now we kind of at this point where we're not a particularly quiet business obviously the opposite which is you alluded to can be a sad thing for a lot of people yeah and but it I mean a day is pretty full on it's pretty packed and it kind of ranges throughout the businesses to what what job you do if it front house that'll be answering the phones dealing with administrative duties seeing families when they walk in to talk to someone if you're under the operatives it could be sort of doing the clinical preparation side of things and actually physically caring for the deceased it could be putting the coffins together or sort of fairing coffins between our branches to attending funerals driving the ceremonial vehicles that kind of thing or if you're a funeral director it could be meeting families actually arranging the funerals sort of phoning ministers and the crematorium and putting everything together to obviously then attending the funeral on the day and making sure everything is right yeah you know we've got other members of stuff we've got Fiona who's our accounts lady blesses she's fantastic we've got Harish who's our health and safety chat we've got Yaz who's HR so we've got sort of these extra people that help out with a lot more of the kind of the people based tasks the business based tasks which has been sort of really good over the last couple years to introduce to the business yeah what do you think of some of the biggest misconceptions about few laws and funeral directors I think at the moment we can get a bit of a bad rap in the media right and I think for good reason at times because there are people out there that I kind of taking the Mickey with how they do things right yeah I mean last year we had the situation in Hull legacy funeral directors in Hull which was just awful yeah sort of people not being cared for properly and and things like that and I think you know we the way we approach our businesses that every family that comes into us is treated and it sounds a bit cliche but treated as if they're part of the family yeah and every funeral we do dad has always said I always say it's the last funeral we're ever gonna do so it's the most important one and it's the same ethos for every single family we care for and we're not perfect we're not infallible you know people make mistakes we make mistakes and I think the one thing that I hope comes across if and when we do make a mistake is that we genuinely care about putting it right yeah you know we're not fortunate enough to get a second chance at a funeral that you know you can't really do it again so it is a lot of pressure it's really high stakes on the day and we all take it very personally if and when something goes wrong yeah that's Mae'n gwneud, mae'n gwneud ac mae'n gwneud, mae'n gwneud. Mae'n gwneud, mae'n gwneud, mae'n gwneud. Mae'n gwneud, mae'n gwneud. Mae'n gwneud. Mae'n gwneud. Mae'n gwneud. Mae'n gwneud. yw'n gweithio eisiau i'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'n gweithio i' Felly, oedd yn fforddol yn fforddol, oedd yn fforddol yn fforddol yn fforddol. Felly, oedd yn fforddol yn fforddol yn fforddol yn fforddol yn fforddol yn fford Mae'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r i'r Mae'r gweithydd, gweithydd, gweithydd, gweithydd, gweithydd, gweithydd. Mae'r gweithydd, gweithydd, gweithydd. Mae'r gweithydd, gweithydd. Mae'r gweithydd, gweithydd, gweithydd, gweithydd. Mae'r gweithydd. Mae'r gweithydd. Mae'r gweithydd. Mae'r gweithydd. Mae'r gweithydd. Mae'r gweithydd. Mae'r gweithydd. Mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Mae'n gweithio'r amser ymdwch, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. Mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser, mae'n gweithio'r amser. a'r yw'r ymdyn ni'n ymdyn ni'n ymdyn ni'n ymdyn ni'n ymdyn ni'n ym probably hadn't the first six months I reckon, but I'm at a point now where we've kind of come at the other side of it I've been able to put a planning place for the business and get it to a point now where I say oh look at me I've put a planning place it's the team and I've put a planning place to get to a point where actually you know the the future is looking bright for us yeah she's great awesome yeah and do you see yourself growing the business I've got my plan to no I get asked that question a lot yeah it's for me the sort of the most important thing is to have a business which is sort of self-sustaining profitable but not to the point where that's your focus it's a business you need to make money at the end of the day to be able to put the money back into the business right yeah but to make sure that the business survives hopefully as as long as it's it's under my tenure yeah because I don't want to be the one that drives it into the ground after 150 years but that's quite a weight yeah of course it is oh it sucks yeah yeah if you were the one that you know oh don't yeah that's that is pressure yeah yeah I kind of just try to forget about it yeah I was but it's there it's there every day like it doesn't leave you yeah but yeah it's just making sure that we've got sort of meaningful employment for you be like come on son yes cycle into my little retirement plan that's what is I made it was that you want to be an actor go give it go for a month do you yeah so that's an interesting thing isn't it I mean both my children involved in the business now not for one moment did I ever think they would be yeah and it was never any pressure if anything it was more the opposite yeah did you feel pressure no no not at all not so it was your I did but only for myself for myself I mean dad always sort of said like go and try the things yes go and do something else yeah I think maybe secretly there was a part of him that's wanted me to escape the fate that he had for 50 years of doing that job because it is it is a sort of a tie it really is a tie yeah I mean mum would have loved to have moved away and lived somewhere else but sort of the the cost you you have really for a business I think that's part of a family business yeah never properly unless you sell and and there's nobody else left involved yeah to leave you know even my parents who they're not involved day to day but still very interested yeah of course and still have opinions oh no mine don't I'm quite fortunate yeah oh no dad has does dad still has opinions I mean I listen that's good that's good no my dad doesn't want to talk about it at all no I go with family dinner and it's all talk about everyone else's work you know how you're getting on yeah how you're gonna come as your aunt to me table goes quite move on to the next person I think I've you know I get it dad's done it for 50 years it doesn't want to yeah I get it I get it I think that to be able to do that yeah is and I guess really you need to be thinking how do I yeah do that and I think in a way it's freed me up because I'm not spending every day of of my work going oh dad approve of this or she run this by dad or you know whatever so it's yes it's quite liberating away really yeah yeah and I think probably I it's more the opposite with me I can still you know the changes that we've made since I for me it was 2014 sure and the business is very different today as it was pre when dad was was head in the business and I think sometimes especially when things aren't going right oh well you should go back to do it this way you know I do sometimes feel that pressure so I think that's that's good that you don't and you have that freedom to do so yeah I'm unfortunate about that yeah well the biggest changes you've made since when I took up the business I said I'm not going to change anything no I'm gonna change anything business is working I don't need to change anything yeah we basically haven't stopped changing things over the last couple years just so the way it's gone really I think one thing that is really important to me is sustainability yes I think our industry is really really far behind the curve you know well you hear about green funerals every now and again and sort of some little bits and pieces here that funny stories of people being buried in mushroom suits and things like that or whatever yeah but but it doesn't really it doesn't really change and that's I'm now sort of somehow have found myself chairing a group for our trade body which is for independent funeral directors and is about basically driving the environmental change in our industry which is kind of crazy to so what needs to happen what what makes it a sustainable fuel so the big question at the moment is proving it yeah there's a big thing that's happening at the moment in our industry which is basically it's called resumption it's a water cremation and everyone is saying that it's this new green technology to be water cremated and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah my response to that is always going to be where's the data if you can show me the numbers that show me it's more sustainable and more environmentally friendly I'm more than happy to believe it is but at the moment in our industry there's a lot of green washing and sort of words that get thrown around a lot without any actual meaning behind it which I'm not a huge fan of so for me it's about you know little things we can do with our own business like we're now able to arrange funerals basically paper-free start to finish which is I'm really happy about it's really cool all of our electric in in sort of the five facilities that we have offices are 100% renewable we've got an electric van called Evan Evan that sort of does all of our direct cremations over to Wildon Crematorium and really my sort of target is is to be doing one of the first carbon neutral direct cremations in the UK and we're not that far we're pretty close really really close so yeah I think it's a case of just proving that you can do it and it's not it's not is that driven by it's going to say the consumer but you're yeah no it is it is we're really fortunate in this area that we've got a sort of a community that seems to take in sustainability seriously yeah which is great for sort of wanting to do that in a business and I think it is definitely backed by I mean you got it a poll I think was last year you before I hate throwing quotes out there without having them behind me but found that 62% of consumers are likely to consider a brand or product's environmental credentials before actually making the commitment to purchase it 62% quite a lot yeah quite a lot yeah yeah because I wouldn't say in industry it's driven by our consumer I guess our consumer 50 plus yeah and it's first of all what's the comfort like what's yeah of course price oh and it's sustainable it's a bonus at the moment it's not the first thing no of course it must be this and it's been driven more by our industry than actually consumer led I mean it is happening and more of our suppliers are producing sustainable products but it's I wouldn't say it's driven by the consumer at this present time but it I'd say more so I'll get in more from as we bring in younger team they're the ones pushing that agenda yeah and we find the same thing you know as as you sort of move because it's not necessarily the older generation that when you think of marketing yes in a funeral business which you kind of can't do no but when you think about sort of the people that you're likely to be sitting opposite opposite it very rarely is it the older generation no normally it's going to be their children there might be 50s that kind of thing and so it sort of is now starting to become more of a more of a thing yeah yeah and you just touched on marketing you don't market at all no no how do people find who they're going to use I mean most people have used us before right so we get a lot of I'm not going to use the phrase repeat business but we get a lot of people who sort of go are you looked after granddad mom whoever yeah come back to us which is you know it's it's a lovely feeling when someone does that yes no that you did a good job and that they're sort of held on to you and you know it seems to be the kind of thing where in families you sort of all we're a we're a town as family we always get a town as we use towners they kind of think yeah but I mean we I make it a point of trying to support sort of some local initiatives as much as I can yeah and both in like environmental staff but also the arts which is really important to me yeah just to be able to sort of you know we we've only existed for 151 years because the community have trusted us for 151 years yeah to look after their loved ones yeah and so for me it's really important to give back to the community and we're in such an incredible town or area you know to see that Hastings hopefully is on the short list for the the UK's first town of culture was really, really cool. which would be amazing to win things like Pirate Day and Jack in the green. And so for me it's about making sure that those sorts of things can continue to happen. So we sponsor Pirate Day every year, which is a bit tongue in cheek. I tried to speak to the guy about five years ago and it took him about two or three years to come back to me about it because the whole time he was going, I'm not sure about this. And the first year we tried it, Anton is the chap and we were talking about a tagline for it. We were thinking what do we do? How far do we push the boat out here? So I don't know, if anyone sort of listening to this has seen the advert and enjoys it amazing. But it basically says, Arthur C. Towner limited looking after your bones since 1875. And we put it out the first year and I was sat there going, oh no, this is not going on well. And we haven't had a single piece of negative feedback about it. That's all people have loved it. And that I think, you know, it's a little bit tongue in cheek. It's embracing what it is to be a sort of local in our area and that's what's really important to me is and that's going back to the question about expansion and everything. I think if we get any bigger we lose that kind of local community feel, we start to get a bit more corporate. And I don't want that. I don't want that. I don't want to keep that. I don't think we could. You know, it's a challenge for us as we grow. We go into new counties and, you know, and it's a challenge to keep that family community and as I've already touched on, you know, it can be thrown or it's not as family as it used to be. Exactly. Exactly. And yet, really, our values, which you saw in the war, you know, they are values really that come from the original founding, that was dad's principles. Now, he didn't have them on the wall, but they are really what he started to recreate. Yeah. I wouldn't say they've changed much since found in the business and then I think we've carried on. Yeah, we've made changes, as you say, and I think you have to. You do. You know, things change, very much more data led today than there was no data. I mean, if I look back when I first started, I don't even know if dad knew how much was being done day-to-day. We do it. We've been, oh, that was a good day, but really had no, but somewhere else today it's so data. Is data used in your business? To some extent. Yeah. Not hugely. I mean, we have sort of management accounts that we look at. We have what we call death statistics, which is like how many we've done it, various crematoria and things like that, just to be able to keep an arm, things like a market share and things like that, which are, you know, helpful, but shouldn't be what makes your decisions, I don't think. I think it's really easy if you're just following the numbers to ignore a lot, especially in our industry, of what you do. You could be so careful. Exactly. And I think if you start, you know, I could sit and look at these papers, which could tell me that we need to stop offering an out-of-hours service, for example. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, you think in a retail business it's, we look at average order values. Yeah. How can you do that with, you know, it must be really challenging, you know, how do we do it? Yeah. You know, because these are data. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. How can you do that with, with, that must be really challenging, you know, how do we feel? You know, because these people are coming to you at desperate times. Yeah. And you don't feel as though, you know, pushing something that, yeah, that's the thing pushing something. So, we don't, we don't sell. Yeah. We don't sell at all. No. And, you know, some practices places you go to, why are you only spending that much on a coffin? Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. My thoughts is exactly the same as Dad's when it comes, when it comes to sort of a coffin choice, which is ultimately this is an item that you're only going to use once. Yeah. So, you don't need to spend a load of money on it, no, you know, they're perfectly fine. Yeah. We're actually working really hard at the moment on pioneering a really, really low cost and environmentally friendly option for things like direct cremations, just to sort of give people more choice, lower cost options, things like that, because it's really important. And, the way we run is that we will do whatever a family asks us to do, providing its legal. Yeah. If you don't have a set price for it, we will find a price for you, and we'll let you know how much that will be, kind of thing. You know, we don't sell, we don't have preferred ways of doing things. It's pretty much, tell us what you want to do, and we'll do it, no matter how crazy it is. Yeah. Yeah. What do you see of the biggest risks going forward in a business? I think direct cremation is one. Is it? Yeah. I mean, it's sort of a buzzword in our industry at the moment, and it's, you know, if you watch TV at any point at the moment, you'd have seen various adverts for companies and things like that, and I have to be very careful, what I say, so I don't get in trouble, because there are cease and desist letters going out to people at the moment, so I'll be careful. But direct cremation as a principle, I'm quite a rarity in the industry, especially for an independent funeral director, in the sense that I don't necessarily completely disagree with it. No. So, what's the difference? So, a lot of funeral directors at the moment are terrified of it. I think how are we going to survive it? So, direct cremation is basically the lowest cost option you can. There's no service. There's no one attending, nothing like that. It's basically the funeral director arranges to take the deceased to a crematorium. There'd be no one there, the sort of committal cremation happens and the ashes are brought back to the family. He's kind of the point of the direct cremation. Yeah. So, it's super low cost, things like that. I see it as an opportunity for families to organise their own event to remember their loved one. Yeah. It's a favourite spot in the woods that they're like going for picnics. Well, do that. That's the funeral. If the funeral doesn't need to be, we sat in a church, we sat in a chapel somewhere around the time. Doesn't need to be that. Be creative. Sort of change your mind about things. Think about them. How do you make it unique and personal to them? Yeah. So, that, for me, is sort of why it's an opportunity rather than somebody to be scared of. But it's very forward thinking, though, isn't it? Yeah. What you're doing there, if you think some of the biggest. I mean, understanding what business you are actually in, which is celebrating someone's life, it's not really about being the box, the car, it's celebrated, isn't it? Yeah. And that's just changing the dynamics of what happens, as long as you're moving along with that, then it's not a threat, is it? No, I mean, we've got, we really, we have two base functions of as funeral directors as a business. One is, exactly as you say, which is to celebrate the life of someone that's died. Yes. The other is to facilitate and allow the, those that that person has left behind to begin their grieving journey without an additional hiccup. That's really the two base functions that we serve. Yes. And it's a hell of a responsibility, because grief, grief's a hell of a thing, and anything we can do to make it easier for people is kind of what we do. Yes. And on, you know, talking about direct cremations and grief, there's a load of research coming out at the moment about whether or not, because you sort of see elderly people will take out a direct cremation plan for themselves and maybe not tell their loved ones, not tell their kids or anything like that, because they don't want to make a fuss. Fair enough, don't make a fuss, but actually one of the questions that's being asked at the moment is, if that happens and the family members don't know about it, is it robbing them of their opportunity to grieve and say goodbye? Which is a question that's been asked about, I don't have the answer, I think everyone is different, I think grief is different for everyone. So, and I think people grieve in different ways, and we are so glad to have the opportunity to come and talk to you today, because I don't think we talk enough about death. No. And I think, you know, for years, you heard about people being ripped off by funeral directors, and I think it's because we're not prepared to talk about it, we're not prepared, you know, you'll go to one down the road that's been there for years when actually you don't know it's been brought over by a sort of a corporate operation, you know, being charged a grand and a half more if you're two miles down the road kind of thing. Yeah, awful. Yeah. So, you know, some, one of the funeral planning companies we work with did some research a few years ago and they said 72% of people don't know if their loved one would want to be buried or cremated. Really? 72% of people. Wow. Do you? No. Because you don't talk about it. No, you don't. And actually, the amount of times we sit down with families and the major source of worry for them is about getting it right for their loved one that's died. Yeah. Yeah. And if we just, you know, we're not having a morbid conversation, we're not saying, "Oh, would you want to have happened when you die?" Yeah. But it can actually be quite a nice lighthearted conversation. Yeah. My parents-in-law sort of had that, not one of the first times I met them, but my wife Lucy sort of said at some point what I did in a dinner table, we had this lovely conversation where they had never spoken about it. No. And we just organically started talking about it and my father-in-law said that he wanted to be cremated, I think, which is funny because he's a firefighter. And my mother-in-law kind of went, "Do you? I've sworn you would want to be buried." And it's that really lovely moment where you don't have to approach it from a point of fear or a point of worry. It's about knowing that when the time comes, you can, you know, do what's right for the person that's died. Yeah. But also, remember them in the way that's right for you. I mean, a funeral. It's to honor the person that's died but really a funeral is for the people that have been left behind To remember their loved one the best way that they can absolutely and Yeah, I think why don't we not talk about death enough? What is it? Well, I do I talk about it every day I think so I think is so in Western culture we we take the longest in the world to sort of bury We are dead and deal with our dead. Yeah For me, I mean any of my team will tell you how annoyed I get that my own business when I hear people say things like Past away and things like that. Yeah, because it's just very woolly language. Yeah, it's not disrespectful for me They've died. Yes, and kind of part of working with a funeral director is about coming to terms with that Because you've got to grieve this person then the day you have to rebuild your life Yeah, we could be dealing with people at the worst point of their lives and I personally think yes, you care for people, but we don't need to be Kind of hiding the facts what's happened. I think we're kind of impeding someone's grief if we do that I Think it's a cultural thing. I mean we're forged enough to look after all of the the Muslim funeral in Hastings Yeah, which is such an incredible experience to watch is that for it's so community involved if there's a gentleman that dies Then all the sort of the men from the Muslim community will come in and wash them together, which is incredible And it's vice versa with women and to see it being such an integral part of Their community is amazing and it sort of sits there and you think you know We've you know, maybe people will come and see their loved one when they've died in our chapel arrest But some people won't which I completely understand. I don't think I would want to personally But we sort of we care for people all our lives and especially if someone's been unwell and has been really unwell for Quite a while and you've been caring for them. It's just strange that we stop when someone dies Yeah, kind of never really made sense to me, but in terms of why we don't talk about it Can I answer that question? It's cultural and I think it's it's a 50 50. I've had I've had people in my life You know, I remember a conversation with a friend of mine at drama school Who I think the first time we start talking about what I did prior to coming to drama school He kind of went, oh, what did you do? Oh, actually? I'm an undertaker and he went cool And that was the last time we ever spoke about it in seven years and it's 50 50 people will either go great And that's it. Yeah, all they will have so many questions. Yeah, always always your loved ones ashes You get back like always only one person's ashes or what happens with like hip replacements and stuff Yeah, I think there are people that are interested and there are those that aren't what now you've just said that Well Exactly Absolutely, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant Yeah, anything to add any very questions. We do have some quick fire questions. You ready for some quick fire. Oh, try my best yet Yeah, I can go on I think my wife gets so bored of me talking about this kind of thing actually having people that are interested It's quite novel for me. So I'm sat in like oh, this is really fun Yeah, okay quick quick fire question number one. Okay, okay a moment in your career. You'll never forget Uh, I'm gonna tell this story There's one that I always quote which is about a rocky horror picture show themed funeral and one of my friends at the time turned up full-suspended stockings everything high. It was amazing Not gonna tell that story The one thing I will never forget is when I was younger about 1718 I was an operative Carrying it was a grave-side burial service. Yeah, and there's a really lovely serene moment Whereas the coffin is gently lowered into the grave the bear is will sort of bow to the coffin before turning to them walk away Except on this occasion when we're standing at the side of the grave and the four of us bow There's a thunk The four of us stand back up and I look opposite to see one of my colleagues face which is just white What's happened? What's happened? So we walk away And I walk over to my colleague and I go should we um should we each load the hair sup and get ready to go and he goes can't Why not? Husky fell out of my pocket on top of the coffin. Oh Looking back at it now, it is very funny But at the times. Oh, it was so bad. Yeah, yeah, it was awful. Luckily the family found it hilarious Which is fortunate You know blessed that they were so good about it, but oh it was Oh, it's awful. It's just getting now just getting with them because this is not going to get better. This is awful Yeah, I can see why that yeah, I'm never gonna never gonna forget that Okay question number two. What's the most rewarding part of what you do? In terms of what are you do? Yeah, it's seeing one of the team overcome a personal challenge at work Um, it would be really easy to see to say things like oh, you know Families coming in to say thank you and things which obviously means so like it does mean a lot But because I'm not necessarily directly involved day-to-day for me It's if I'm sort of working close and seeing development in one of the team We've got a really young team at the moment quite an experienced team. Yeah, which is really exciting To sort of be able to build the team and learn to work together and move forward Um, and so that for me it's so rewarding sort of putting all this work in and the stuff that dad has spent years Rabbiting on in my ear about and that actually I'll sit there and I'll give someone an answer to a question I'll go oh, maybe that did stick yeah, yeah, I sound just like dad I hope that's a good thing and so it's seeing people grow and develop in their own was it? I love it by the sound of it you have high retainment of team if you've 35 years Well, we have now yeah, it's gone through a period of quite high turnover really But I think you always will do. Yeah, I think when you take over a business there'll be people that leave Finding your feet, and I think now we're at a point where you know, we've got a really great team I really don't want to lose any of them. No, so great position. Yeah, and I'm yeah, sorry fortunate Uh, question number three. Yep Rugby League or rugby union union. Well, that was quick. That was quick. Yeah, very easy. Yeah. Yeah, so you enjoyed the weekend Oh very much so Yeah, yeah, very much so yeah, let's talk about that the better I think It was a very good weekend of rugby Steve Did you play you played I did play. Yeah, I did play quite a lot But my health when I was younger kind of got in the way at one point Yeah, no, I did yeah, I loved it. Yeah, you miss it a lot Cool there we go rugby union. There it is. Yeah, I think that's it. Is it rugby league down this way? Hey, it is a southern thing is yeah tends to be rugby league north of London. Is it think so? Yeah Yeah, well everything for us is north isn't it? So everything above London is the north. I drove up the leaves yesterday Assusual pass battle. It's normal. Yeah, exactly. You're on the 821. It's this is where the world lands on PB dragons kind of thing. It's Okay, question number four best piece of advice you've been given I think it's a piece of advice dad gave me relatively recently um Which was quite simply If you think something's a good idea, yeah, and the only thing that's stopping you is having the guts to actually do it Yeah, it's probably a good idea Wow I think we need to keep that for the uh for the uh Tip of the week I was down there Yeah, to me it's still really good stead recently. Yeah, um try to make decisions of what do we do this do we do that do we spend this Money here do we you know do we not yes like the pirate day tagline the marketing. Yeah, I was sad they're going I'm sure this is going to work. Yeah, it might not but I'm sure this is going to work. Yeah, yeah, and I just went you know what No, I'm this is going to work. I just need to do it. Yeah, did it and it is it's worked. So Brilliant love it. Okay. I've fifth and final questions. Okay. Are you ready for this one? Uh, if you weren't in this industry you're in the street. What would you be doing? I don't know. You don't know. Um no You enjoy what you do. I do and I think I spent so long getting away from it or trying to get away from it That now I'm in it. I kind of can't see myself doing anything else now. Wow Enjoy what you do. Yeah, I mean it's just it's a bit of a wet answer really. I'm sorry No, I don't think it is. I think you know, I don't think I'll get back to acting No, no, I might I won't try and go back into coaching maybe. Yeah. Yeah, something sporty Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, enjoy what you do. How many people in that they ultimate goal to enjoy what you do? I never thought I would say that ever. No, no, yeah. You're dead. I'm proud. I'm sorry Okay, it'd be I'm not I'm not going to tell him I've done this Okay, cool. Well, that's the end of our pack podcast. Yeah, but it's the end of our podcast for this. Okay. Yeah. Have you enjoyed yourself? Oh, it's been great. Thank you Thank you so much for having us, that's been lovely. - I think we do need a second instalment, right? What happens to the hit replacements, I don't know. - I won't know. - I'm all for it, but maybe wait until it comes out 'cause you might get 50% of people going, no. Please don't have him back, my god, he's insufferable. - Okay, yeah, we'll do a poll. Do you want Ali back? - If yes, why are you lying? - All right, okay, so next week, next week we are joined by Richard Cripps who was, actually we've worked with him for many years, a solicitor, I've got a solicitor coming in, and I've known him for many years, used to be the MD managing director, managing partner of Rickson K, until they got a choir last year by Knights. Knights solicitors, so he's a partner for Knights, and I think it's gonna be really interesting because I think we put these people on a pedestal, these clever people, but actually, when you get to really speak to them and know them, they are going through the same pains, they are technicians, really solicitors, run in businesses, and have the same challenges as everybody else. And I discovered that a few years ago and doing a business meeting with Richard, and it was quite refreshing, really, and accountants, solicitors, they go through the same pains as the rest of us. So we're gonna be speaking to Richard, so he's coming on next week. So that's a wrap for this week. New episodes drop every single Wednesday, so don't forget to tune in, and if you want more unfiltered business talk, you can find us on Instagram, YouTube, and LinkedIn at an orthodox CEO. So that's it, thank you for listening everybody. If you're waking up, good morning. Good morning, and welcome to our podcast. If you're trekking through the Himalayas, you're probably not listening to us, what would you be? What if you're in the Himalayas, come on, honestly. But if you are, then good luck. If you're tucking yourself into your Sussex bed, then good night, I'll see you soon, and see you next week. Bye now, bye, whoo!