Old Movies vs. New Movies: How ‘Avengers: Endgame Encore’ Beat Brad Pitt, Robert Pattinson, and an Awesome Weekend Movie Lineup

I'm Sean Fantasy and this is the big picture a conversation show about old versus new today on the show we're looking at a diverse and pretty darn good collection of movies that opened over the past week among them the Brad Pitt vehicle Heart of the Beast, the animated film Forgotten Island, the Ethan Hawks survival thriller The Weight, the terrific new documentary, The History of Concrete, and your mother, your mother, your mother, a ferocious and meditative new action drama starring Mahershala Ali. But one movie overwhelmed them all this weekend, Avengers Endgame Encore in Infinity Vision. Amanda and I will talk about what if anything this means, what we think of all these movies, and about the surge in anniversary, repertory screenings around the country and major theatrical chains later in the show. I'll be joined by one of my favorite filmmakers, John Wilson, whose first feature-length documentary The History of Concrete has been a little mini sensation as it expands across the country. Wilson's remarkable TV series How To With John Wilson was on HBO for three seasons and blended man on the street curiosity, observational verite, and a rye sense of humor to create something original, moving and frequently funny, John is a very smart fellow in our conversation, touches on many aspects of how he does what he does, stick around for that. But first, some movie news right after this. This episode is presented by State Farm. You know the feeling, long day, good meal, you finally sit down, and now you're just staring at your screen. Slasher, romcom, period drama, psychological thriller. But some decisions don't have to be that hard. State Farm is here to help. Like when you choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan, bundling, just another way to save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Covered options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. Okay, Dobbins. Hello. I have star. So, so what is Infinity Vision? Uh, let's, let's put a pin in Infinity Vision, however, I will stay in the Disney corporation. Okay. Um, it was announced over the weekend that John Watts is going to direct a Star Wars film. There's going to be a new trilogy penned by Simon Kinberg. Mm-hmm. I hate it when people, I know it's an industry thing, just say, written. With it, you hate it when people say penned by it. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like, it's from the traits and I understand they have a wrong language. It's a scribe. Right. So I'm in Kinberg. Just say written. He, he removed his quill from the quill holder, he dabbed it in some ink. Yeah. Yeah. He penned the words. Okay. And thus it ever was. It's not because it's an agronistic. Uh-huh. It's just because it sounds stupid. Okay. Uh, Kinberg is teaming up with John Watts, and this movie is coming after Starfighter. It sounds like it is maybe not connected to Starfighter, and seems like it is in the aftermath of the Ray Skywalker trilogy. So Starfighter is not connected to the Skywalker saga. We don't, I don't know. You don't know. I don't know. What does Starfighter do? I, he fights stars. I mean, I think it's all right there. Why? I don't know. I don't know. Why are the wars in the stars? What if he was fighting with the stars? Uh. What if he's a Starfighter? Uh, well, I think it's like firefighter, you know, like they're not fighting alongside the fire. They're fighting against the fire. Okay. It's not firefighter. But how would I know that? I honestly don't know. We're going to have to wait to find out that I don't think those movies are related. I did just read also this morning that Sean Levy is coming over from Netflix to Disney to also be a producer at the studio. So that means that they're feeling very good about Starfighter. Uh-huh. John Watts has directed five films. Yes. Can you name them? Oh. Wolves. Wolves. That's one. Um, the, the three Spider-Man movies. Yes. Do you know their names? Uh, Spider-Man. Uh, no, don't tell me. Okay. Well, homecoming. That's one. Spider-Man. What's the drone one? Hmm. I don't know. That one. Uh, that one is far from home. Sure. And then Spider-Man, I don't, I, I saw it there there. I saw a reason. Watch some of it recently. No way home. No way home. Sure. But then there's a mega sensation. And then he did not return to the Spider-Man franchise. Do you know his first film? His indie feature? Not off the top of my head. The Kevin Bacon vehicle cop car. Did I, you know what? I've never seen that. Even though I am a Kevin Bacon enthusiast or defender, uh, pretty good movie Watts. I know Wolfs was terrible. So I'm a little confused about this. It was pretty bad. We can talk about why it was bad, uh, later on in this podcast. Oh, okay. Yeah. It's a dip. Um, yeah, I, this wouldn't be my first choice. Okay. For a new Star Wars movie. All right. I hope it's good. I really hope it's good. I, John Watts, relatively uninspiring, although no way home in my opinion is very fun. I, I'm on record as saying that I prefer the three John Watts Spider-Man movies to this new one. Uh, let's come back. - Let's come back to that. - Thank you, Lucas. I don't think I've seen Clown. - I haven't either. - It's Clown of Horror Film. I think it is. - I've never seen it, so I have no idea. - Okay, thanks. - Okay. - You have written here that Ray Skywalker is going to be featured. - It sounds like it. - Okay. - That's the suggestion is that Daisy really will be participating in this. Now, I think that's a good way to think about this too, which is like the alternative here is, you know, we're not getting Steven Soderberg and Adam Driver's Ben Solo movie. - Yeah. - We're not getting whatever the David Fincher pitch was. We're not getting, you know, the myriad number of filmmakers, you know, Patty Jenkins, that a movie in development. James Mangle, I think, may still have a movie in development. It's like a YTD, no matter what you think about him, that a movie in development. A lot of filmmakers, they've been lindal off. - Sure. - And the number of other writers wrote a film that didn't go. These are the movies that it seems like are going. - Yeah, which seems in keeping with the JJ Abrams' stick to the text, stick to the corporate mythology as well as the. - The safe pair of hints too. - Yeah. - The Skywalker mythology. - Are you don't the Skywalker's? - And I'm not even done with Skywalker's in this conversation. - Is that true? - Yeah, because when we get to what's certain romantic comedy and fanfiction, I did some fanfiction research last night. So that's what I was doing instead of hearing about whatever the starfighter's up to. - This episode's gonna have some real arc for that reason. We'll probably end with that film. - Speaking of Spider-Man, Tom Holland, his long-awaited Fred Astaire biopic added a couple of people to its cast. Sabrina Carpenter is joining. She will play Ginger Rogers. Seems like pretty good casting to me. - Wonderful. - Margaret Quali will play Adele Astaire, who is Fred's older sister and his original dance partner. What do you know about Adele Astaire? - Absolutely nothing. - Me neither. You think this movie will be good? - I am really excited that Tom Holland is gonna be dancing again. - Okay, who's directing this movie? - I don't remember. - Is it Denis Villeneuve? (laughing) - I don't think. - I don't think this movie has a director. I hope it's someone good. - Me too. - Isn't it Paul King? - Is that Paul King? - Is that Paul King? - If that's right, that's promising. I would say though I hated Wonka. - I thought I remember. - Okay, I thought I remember hearing that, but I don't know. - Directed by Paul King. - Oh, okay, so there you go. - Oh, exactly right, with Amy Pascal producing. So, those are some people I like. - Yeah, sure. Paul King absent the last pattington film to make Wonka that hurt. That hurt. Pattington and Peru a step back from the first two pattington films. But still pretty moving, come on, at the end. - Pretty moving? - Yeah, when they're in the orange grove, and he's like, I like it here, but I want to come home with you, even though they've just like completely recast. Sally Hawkins is Emily Mortimer and said nothing. - Yeah, it does happen from time to time. - Yeah. Amanda, where do you stand on Wonka? - I cried. - I don't know what to tell you. - Like I cried when he started singing, you know, come with me. Boba, Boba, yeah, world of imagination. And the scene with the giraffe was pretty cool. - I totally agree. - Yeah. - I find this to be one of your stranger takes. I can't believe you hate it that much, not indifferent, but hate. - I really don't like it. - Yeah, I really don't get it either. You could just be like, I didn't like it as much as the pattington films. - I mean, it's definitely not as good as pattington films too. - That's true. - No, I have a very specific set of ideas about what I think Willy Wonka should be. And I feel like they were like, well Tim Burton went in that direction. So now we need to go in the far opposite direction. You know, and obviously be different from Gene Wilder and be very kind of sweet and colorful and cheery. - Yeah, but also, you know, to me, dance is in that one. I like it when the young men dance. - Yeah, I don't know. - Okay, that's fine. - I think he's gonna look back on that one with a little bit of regret. You see that the second one is like not really happening. It's completely backburnered. - 'Cause he's doing other cool things. - He's doing brochure. - Yeah, that seems fine. That's his phase of life. - It is. - It's mine too. - Maybe he'll get to a later phase of life and that he'll be like post Gene Wilder. - Right, 75 year old Wonka. - Dancing with a cane. - Yeah, daddy Wonka. Granddaddy Wonka. - Let's do it. - Dancing with a, doesn't he already have a cane? - Yeah, but in a different way. - What's the, what's the-- that's the way he has it now. How would you describe that? - More of a prop, less of a support system. Okay. - He kind of looks like a pimp, doesn't he? - Yeah, a little bit. - Willy Wonka with that top hat purple overcoat. - Mm-hmm. - Think I could pull that off? - No. - Okay. Let's talk about the box office, okay? This is gonna tell-- - My favorite topic. - This is gonna dovetail into what we're speaking about today. End game on Korma, $26 million. - Okay. - Let me tell you about Infinity Vision. - Yeah. - Felt nothing. Saw nothing, nothing was different. I don't, I was sitting in the Dolby room, love those seats. Thanks to them for making nice seats at the AMCs. Looked and sounded the same. - Okay. - Pretty much. I'm sure if you put a side-by-side up of what it looked like when I saw it in a movie theater in 2019. - Yeah. - Like, oh, it's a little more, looks a little more clear. - I doubt it. - Looks like a better image. Maybe it's a little, maybe the sound is improved a little bit, but it looked really the same. So this is a, this is a PLF scam, which is what we knew it was. - Exactly. - Charged you more so that they then made $26 million and beat out the others at the box office. - Yes, it was effective. Resident Evil came in second at $23 million. Pretty good hold. Hard of the beast made $20 million. Primetime made $19 million. And Forgotten Island was the disappointment of the weekend and only made $12 million. This is semi-notable to me. 17 of the 200 highest grossing films in the US this year are re-releases. So among them, the most successful of them are cars, Top Gun, the Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Ring, Akira was recently re-released, the Fast and the Furious, the Transformers movie. From 1986 got an anniversary screening, Kiki's Delivery Service, Shrek, even Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II, The Secret of the Oods, which I absolutely loved as a kid, went back into movie theaters this year for an anniversary screening. So this is more movies than last year, which had 15 films in the top 200. 2024 was 14, 2023 was 11. So we're seeing like an uptick in the number of anniversary screenings. So I guess I kind of want to have a conversation with you even before getting into endgame and seeing it again. Like is this a big deal? Is it circumstantial? Is it indicate anything to you about what the appetites of movie goers are and maybe what studios think they want and need? - Well, I think it reflects the change in the way that people see movies for the positive. And it's another eventization of movies, right? And so in the same way that people are like, oh, I gotta buy my tickets, 40 weeks in advance for Oppenheimer or the Odyssey in 70 millimeter IMAX. I also need to this movie that I love that I have this relationship at home is coming out and I need to get tickets in the same way. So there have always been anniversary screenings. I guess they're more and they're more popular because people are used to coming to the movies as like appointment viewing as opposed to 25 years ago when you just like wander into the movie theater on a Friday night and you'd get dropped off at the mall and be like, oh, I guess I'll see this. Oh, I guess I'll see this. So it's the same but different, I think, but it's a good sign for movies. It's that people are going, there are different ways that people are going to the movies but they are going back to the movies. - Yeah, I think that's right. I think it's the people enjoy this as an activity, right? It's still like a way to get out. And there's an interesting kind of paradox with this idea 'cause there are more movies than ever to see. Like more movies are being released than were released 30 years ago, 30 years ago, you probably barely got to 200 movies being released at all and now it's more than a part of like 500 movies just maybe not in as many theaters. And there's a couple of things that are interesting to me about this. One, I think next February or March you're going to get what might become one of the biggest reissues ever 'cause you're going to have 50 years of Star Wars, the first Star Wars film, a new hope. And it sounds like maybe there's a chance that what they reissue is a cleaned up restoration of the original version. - Instead of all the new junky stuff. - The Lucas CGI stuff. And we'll see what they end up putting out into the world. But I would like to see that. I haven't seen that in some time on a big screen. - Until now has the biggest re-release been the Star Wars re-release that happened in, was that 30 years? - Probably, but I was thinking about this this morning. I mean, like you just said, this has been happening since the beginning of movies. - Yeah, yeah. - You know, a movie would run and then three years later, especially when we didn't have home video or television, they would just put a movie back in movie theaters and they would just be like, it's three years later, go see Gone with the Wind again. And Gone with the Wind is a movie that has been reissued like many times over the years around anniversaries. The Wizard of Oz is similar. I think Bambi, I saw in theaters because it was part of one of those anniversary Disney reissues where they did those all the time. So this is not new. And if you adjusted for inflation, I think a movie like Gone with the Wind would probably have racked up like the most amount of money. - Right, I mean, that is why it has the box office like records that it does because it just went on and on and on and stayed in theaters. - It's got 85 years of history and plays all the time. But I do, I think you're right. Maybe just from a pure dollar perspective, those Star Wars movies are probably number one. - I just remember it as a huge event. And it felt different than the wandering to a movie theater. And it's like, oh, okay, this movie from Gone with the Wind is on again, it was like, I remember my parents taking me, like everyone having a real sense that something big was happening. And it was also tied in in advance of the new films. - Yes, there was new material in the movies themselves. And then they were leading up into the prequels which was the most anticipated movie event, probably of my lifetime. - Yeah. - I guess Endgame is maybe the comparison, we have Infinity War End Game thing, but in terms of mass market movie going, I think those are probably the two most anticipated things in the last 40 years. You know, in LA, and this is true in New York, it's true in a couple of other cities, Chicago, like a couple of bigger cities. I can't speak for smaller cities and towns are on the country, but the repertoire screening scene in the independent film screening rooms is also like incredible right now. It's like buzzing just this weekend. I went through the calendars and these are the things you could have done if you lived in LA. You could have seen Halloween at the Academy Museum with a Q&A with Jamie Lee Curtis and John Carpenter. You could have seen JFK on 35 millimeter at the New Beverly. You could have seen Vim Vendors as the end of violence at brain dead. You could have seen over a dozen films for Beyond Fest at all of the American Cinemathex screenings, including multiple M night Shyamalan Q&As and Tributes. You could have seen Dead Com on 35 and Tribute to Sam Neal at Vitiates. Like every night, there's something to do. And September and October, especially with the horror mania in this town, there's always so much to go see. So you've got all that stuff happening with these new movies that I mentioned that are mostly playing in AMC and Regal and Cinemark and the main chains. Then you've got all this rap stuff. And so I do think some of it is just like that hangover from the Cinephilia that grew during COVID. And some of it is also, I think about this personally, like I do hunt for the kids movies that are old that I can take my daughter to go see that is like might be a 40 year old movie. She didn't want to go see Transformers the Movie, notably. But still, like, it's not uncommon for us. So yeah, we're going to see Kiki. Like Studio Ghibli has been reissuing their movies a lot recently. And those are a hit with kids and families all the time. So this is like, I don't know if it's a long-term strain of the business, but it almost feels like just like money on the floor that the studios can just pick up and take. And we're not talking about $300 million here, but it's like a million, $3 million, $6 million for these movies being reissued over a few week period of time. And certainly also money for the theaters, if they can make it work. The thing about the Studio Ghibli screenings is that they were all like at kid friendly times. And so we went to Totoro, like a Wednesday afternoon and packed with young people. So, but that's not normally a time when they would be showing as many movies so they can max out their theater for different audiences. Which again, it's sort of like this, you know, the hyper niche sensation that you keep talking about, that it is coming for movies and that there are ways for these businesses to adjust to them. - Yeah. - So it's positive. - It is positive. It does feel like adaptation to the moment. And like you said, filling in 11 a.m. screening time, which otherwise might not draw as big a crowd for part of the beast. Although, - Right. - Maybe it would. - For the older folks. - Yeah. - We can get to that. Should I tell you about end game encore? - Sure, if you must. - Well, I had a good time. You know, I really like that movie. I think it's really fun. It's not, for the longest time, I was like end game superior to Infinity War. - And now you don't think that's the case. - Well, I'm just turning around. - Well, I'm just going to game like five times. I'm like, first two thirds of this movie. You know, there has some flaws. - It's cat being sad. - It's very morose, the first hour. You know, it's really about all of them coming to terms with their own failure. Which is a theme that I like in some films, but maybe not a superhero extravaganza. - Or maybe not for like two hours. - Yeah, it's about an hour. - Okay. - And then Paul Rudd comes back, right? Ant-Man comes out of the van. - Yeah. - And he returns and he tells them about time travel and they figure out the time heist. And then you get more or less an hour of time heist. Of them trying to figure out how to make time travel work and then eventually traveling back in time. And the heist is fun. It's not great, but it's fun. - Yeah. - And then the final third, I think for comic book movie fans, feels like a big summation of the thing that we were watching and enjoying for 15 years. And it was like, they did it. It was a big spectacle and it still really works well. - Did you stand up in cheer when all the women lined up together? - I did. I shed a tear. - You did. - I did. And then I put that tear in a jar and then I sent that jar to the White House. And I said, believe women, please, let them do superheroes. - How many people were in your screening? You were at like a 10 a.m. on a Friday? - I went to an 11 a.m. on a Friday. And it was sold out. It was sold out. And I will say, you know, the cap. catches the hammer moment, which was so beloved when the movie first came out. Kind of tepid applause. Like people felt like they had to applaud. It was not the same rapturous experience there, yeah. - Can I just ask you, what is the demo of 11 on a Friday morning at the Burbank AMC? - It's a lot of unemployed losers, you know? - The nerd haven't. - A lot of versions. - Okay. - No, honestly, like a lot of the screenings I go to, a lot of like dates, a lot of like, you know, small groups of friends together, it was younger. I was, I was one of the older people in the screening room. And I think also this movie being reissued, it does something that a lot of movies that have been reissued over the years does, which is it's a like nostalgia for your youth moment. If you were 14 when this movie came out and you're 21 now, you can think back on like this being a very formative, movie-going experience. - And you can also drive yourself. - You can drive yourself. - You're all grown up. - Yeah, yeah. - You have your college degree, congratulations. The movie is also, in addition to the Infinity Vision thing, there's additional content in the film that ostensibly helps people out before they go to see Avengers Doomsday. Now, the trailer for Avengers Doomsday played before the movie. And then we got a one minute introduction to the film from Chris Evans and Robert Downey Jr. That I would say one of the saddest things I've ever seen in a movie, just two men who were just like, I just really wanted the money. And so I've decided to do this. And the movie itself, one guy who wanted the money, and one guy who just can't make anything else work. - In RDJ? Oh Chris Evans. - Yeah. - I think if he had picked a few better projects, would be in a different spot. I just think he really, he wrong-footed a couple times. And now he's back in the cap uniform. But again, I was watching the movie and I was like, this guy just is Captain America. This is just the, he's just a terrific Captain America. Like I don't even care about Captain America. He was never one of my characters. I never mattered to me. But those two guys hold those movies together, which is why it's kind of sad. Because when you get to the end of that movie, you're like, they did right by these characters. The ending of the movie. Whether you like hombo movies or not, you can be like, well, they handled cap really well. They handled Iron Man really well. These chapters are closed. - Yeah. - Let's go forward. - Okay. - And then they're like, wait a minute. Hold on. - Well, in the case of RDJ. - Uh-huh. - Do you think that like Dr. Doom is gonna be, is that who he is being? Is he gonna be Iron Man at some point? Are they gonna? - Well, I'll tell you about the new stuff. You wanna hear about the new stuff? You don't, but I'm gonna tell you anyway. Cause the listeners at home want to hear about it. - Do they? - They definitely do. Doom's Day is gonna be fucking huge. - I know that. - Huge. If you didn't think so, $26 million. And for this movie, they just came out seven years ago that is on Disney+ right now that everyone has seen. Tells you how big that movie is gonna be. The four new things that they added to the movie, all of which arrive at the end of the movie, really undo the cap and Iron Man conclusions. - So lame. - So if you don't wanna hear what those four things were in this screening, I think this movie's gonna be on Disney+ in a few weeks, so the people can prepare. - So you mean this version? - This version of the movie. - Yeah. - You know, and I couldn't log the movie separately on Letterbox, which I thought was an interesting choice cause it's a different movie. The movie literally ends differently, which is, as you may recall or not, Cap goes back in time to go be with Peggy. - Yeah, and they dance, and it's very nice. - And at the end of this film, their dance is interrupted by someone at the door. Someone rings the doorbell and Cap hides. Peggy answers the door because he doesn't wanna be discovered cause he's in the wrong timeline. - Sure. - And it's Loki. Tom Hiddleton's Loki and Loki's there and Peggy says, can I help you? And he says, no, but I can help you. And then cut. - Okay. - And we indicate, I think that suggests that there's some issue with the branching timelines from all the time travel. - Sure, because how many seasons of Loki did they make? - I think only two. - Okay. - But at the end of season two, he sacrifices himself. So it's like, which Loki even is this? He's, that Loki's dead. - Right. He sacrifices himself to align the timelines. - That sounds right. - Cause that's what they do in that world with all the retro TVs up on the screen is that they enforce the timelines, right? - That's exactly right, the TVA. - Sure. - And the third mid-credit sequence is actually set in the TVA. Owen Wilson is there, Kiwi Claw is there. And we learn that the timelines are all at war with each other and they're collapsing. So we see two timelines like headed straight for each other. One of them is like Earth 1000. I've never heard of it. The other one is the X-Men Earth timeline from the Fox films. So obviously we know they're gonna play a part in Doomsday. The second post-credit sequence features Mark Ruffalo who has locked himself in some sort of underground prison after the events, I guess, of the previous Spider-Man film to keep Hulk at bay. - Yes. - And he gets a visitor. We only hear the visitor's voice from off screen. It's very clearly Doctor Doom. - Okay. - The room has come to unleash Hulk or something. Maybe he takes his powers from Hulk. We don't know. And then we see Mark Ruffalo disappears and then there's just a sigil engraved on the floor in a green glowing light, Doctor Doom's sigil. That happened. - Okay. - And then you don't know this and you don't care. But at the end of the original end game, when we get to the absolute end credits, all you can hear is Tony forging something in metal. And that's meant to be the sound of him making the Iron Man mask for the first time. - Okay. - And in this one, it's Doctor Doom forging his presumably his mask in metal. - Okay. - And those are the four new things. - So are you, I understand how they've undone some of the cap stuff. How did they undo Iron Man according to what you just told me? - I think what they're gonna do is they're gonna show us Robert Downey Jr. as multiple different characters throughout different timelines. - Okay. - So he is Tony Stark in one timeline. He becomes Victor Von, he's Victor Von Doom in one timeline. I think if they're feeling really antique, he'll be the Hulk, he'll be Captain America, he'll be Black Widow, he'll be, you know, like I think if they wanted to have fun with it and you know those Russo brothers, they love to have fun. - They do. - You know, they have their roots in sketch comedy and shows like community. So I, lights for a cell phone fire. (laughing) - I, okay, the cap says. Are you excited? - No, no. - No, you're sad? - Well, the cap thing is one of the best things they've ever done. - I agree, I really, I enjoyed it. - If you're sitting on the bench and he's like, "No, I don't think I will." And that became a great meme. And that whole thing is, that's just, to me that's good popcorn movie stuff. They just like really ended this popcorn movie really, really well seven years ago. It'd be like if we were like, let's go back to the end of back to the future and change it so that the events of back to the future too don't happen in the same way. - I agree with you, but I've felt that way since the beginning of this. - Yeah. - They also do all this stuff with how he has a cute butt in it, right? In the end, and then like one of the last shots is his like old cute butt, right? No? Or is it? - I don't know if we see his old cute butt, but there's a lot of about Steve Rod, that's about America's ass, right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Exactly, yeah. The new, I mean, the reason they did this clearly is because like we just haven't seen Dr. Doom in any movies and there's no anticipation for Dr. Doom. Like we don't, we saw him for like one second, I guess at the end of, was it New Ventures or Fantastic Four? Must have been Fantastic Four. I thought he should have just been a part of Fantastic Four, it probably would have gotten people more psyched about all this stuff, but seems to have not mattered. Everyone's very excited, and there was cheering, and you had the thing where you had people walking out of the movie when the end credits, when the credits hit, and then standing at the entrance because they didn't realize that there was a bunch of new stuff in it. So then you had like big crowds of people just standing there standing through the entire credits, because it's been a little bit unclear like whether there is or is not new material in the movie. - As someone who has left the, before the end credits, several times just because I'm not-- - Center's the most important. - I'm not schooled in this, well sure, but that is not a Marvel movie. So, you know-- - Marvel Filmmaker. - Yeah, Ryan Kugler is more than a Marvel Filmmaker, okay? - Where do you learn the trick from, you know? - Yeah, but you would think that the people who bought the ticket to the screening of the re-release of Infinity, endgame, whatever, would know to stay through the end credits. - Endgame, encore. - Sure, infinity. - They didn't stay, some of them stayed. - Okay. - And it was, you know, I had a hot ticket immediately afterwards to join you to see a film. - Sure, yeah. - And I was 10 minutes late to that film because I stayed through everything. - You were honestly like 15 minutes late, yeah, but it's fine. I, you know, you saw the most of the important stuff. - Oh, I was, I was, I was watched the first, the five minutes when I got there in the wings, so you just didn't see me. - Oh, okay, got it. - So I, it was probably about 10 minutes. Yeah, I was trying to not, it was also very dark and I couldn't see at the very beginning of the film. We'll get there. - Yeah. What takeaways do I have from this? - You're a mark for this stuff, even though you don't like it. And many people will be too, and thus it will be very successful. - Well, I wouldn't say I would like, really cared about any of the changes. Like I, I'm not like, well, this changes everything. I can't wait, you know, I've obviously already been weighed down on the Marvel stuff. And this feels like them kind of just trying to hammer something in between before having to tell this big story. Seeing the Doomsday trailer on the big screen, and I was like, I don't think this looks that great. It just not, it doesn't seem that appealing to me. But I know a lot of people feel differently and a lot of people are excited about it. I don't know, the whole enterprise is a little bit sweaty, but there's obviously still an audience for it. And I'm not sure. I guess this is something that can probably continue to happen for all franchises if there's an anticipated movie coming up, you know, they've been re-issuing the Lord of the Rings films pretty frequently there's a new Lord of the Rings movie next year. And we have a similar situation to what we have this year. Did you know this? I was looking at this last night. So you know, we have Dune Part 3 and Dune stand the same way and you've been mystified by that. Next year, we have Avenger's Secret Wars and the Lord of the Rings the Hunt for Gollum on the same day. I truly don't understand. You know what else is on that day? Tell me. The House made secret. The sequel to the House. Well, that is at least counter-programming and it doesn't rely on a premium format for its box office because we don't care. We just want to get drunk and see Kiki get after it. Some of us do. That just seems strange. But you know what, if it works this, I'll tell you what, if it doesn't work this year, if Dune gets its doors blown off or Dune's they underperforms, something's going to move. Are they just trying to do barbenheimer? Is that what it is? I don't like explain it to me. The House made a hunt for Gollum colon secret wars. That's what we're calling a day. Okay. But is that the House made in Gollum and have chemistry? The House made doesn't have, she has beat chemistry, right? So yes, because that's her job. Her job is to show up and have chemistry with anyone. Do you think there will be a, and get Gollum out of there, you know? Do you think there will be a sex scene with Gollum and the hunt for Gollum? Who's playing Gollum this time? Are there any other, are there any other Gollums? I think he's just one. He stands alone. He's like Madonna. One Gollum. But Madonna had plenty of sex. Well, we don't know about Gollum's sex life. Well, that's what I was asking. Yeah, and I don't know why I'm being so speciesist. He could have sex with whoever he wants. But he has not yet had, we don't know of any romantic or sexual inclinations. Well, he's smegle, you know? So maybe in the time before he was really just annihilated by his love, his lust for the ring. Maybe he had a form that was more attractive. Okay. So then he could, maybe he, you know, maybe he got it in back then pre-ring. Right. And also he wasn't like, yeah. Kind of like most marriages, right? He wasn't fixated on the ring, yeah. We'll explore this when we hunt for Gollum in one year. Does he have like, what's his anatomy? Like is he hanging Don? Yes. Is that what you're asking? Or listen, I mean, I just, I'm just more like, are there. I don't, you know, I don't know the answer to that. Okay. All right. Well, lots to discuss, lots to learn, especially for me. This really is one of the most prestigious shows. Do the three people have sex? The ends. The ends. I don't think so. Okay. Because they're born of the earth, right? They don't give birth to trees. There's not a reproductive system inside of a tree. Right. There's, there's just the seeds and a different. Okay. Well, that's sad for them. They do spread their seed though. Yeah. Hmm. All right. Well. Anyhow, back to Avengers End Game Encore. No sex scenes had to the new edition. I would have been thrilled if, if, if Cap and Peggy just ripped each other's clothes off the end. Me too. Like Loki showing up, that would have been really, actually, really exciting for me. The only time any emcee people have had sex is eternals, right? And then that just like where they show the sex scene. And that was a disaster on all fronts. So they never did it. Was it Gemichan? Yeah. And is it Keith? Is it Kid Harrington? Was he an eternals? He is an eternals, but I think it was the other fellow. Wasn't it the guy from Game of Thrones? The other guy from Game of Thrones? Richard Madden? Richard Madden. Was it Richard Madden? I think it was Richard Madden and Gemichan. Anyone? At the booth? Yeah. Lucas is something. It was Richard Madden and Gemichan. I'm going to rewatch a Ternals. On a beach with in the cliffs. They fucked on a beach. I think so. Like in a cove, more or less. Why do you want to rewatch a Ternals? Because it's the only one of the movies that's not even trying to be connected to anything. It's just its own thing. I don't think it's successful at all. I really didn't like it. But looking back on it, I appreciate the one time they were like, well, let's just try to do something different. And then immediately course corrected and we're like, ah, no. Angelina Jolie and Salmahayak became such good friends on the set of Ternals that now Salmahayak is starring in Angelina Jolie's new movie. Yeah. What's that film called? I don't know. It is in theaters right now, I think. Yeah. No one's seeing it. I think it premiered a film festival over a year ago. Okay. So you're not going to see the encore? Is it still, was it a one week old? I think it's a multiple week thing. I have other things to do this weekend because it's three hours, three plus. It was three hours and six minutes. Okay. So you're not going to go? Probably not, but I'm glad you had a good time. Okay. Well, let's talk about Heart of the Beast. Yeah. This is the new film from David Air. Of course. It's been quite a bit of reporting about this film and the struggle over its contents. Matt Bellini's been on this for the last couple of weeks. It starts Brad Pitt, JK Simmons, Hannah Lambay, and Uber, Sika, Riker, and Hondo, four German shepherds who played Odin the Dog in this film. It's about a man who after a how-rowing plane crash, a special forces veteran, he and his combat dog find themselves stranded deep in the Alaskan wilderness together. They are forced into a brutal fight for survival against the elements. Now, as I said, I did miss the first 10 minutes of this movie. You filled me in after the screening. You missed. Did you see JK Simmons? I did. I saw the whole scene of them around the current fire, yeah. And when the film ended, you made a face at me that suggested you thought the film was a fiasco. No. I found this movie to be totally competent and symbolically sociologically very grim. Okay. I'll just say as a pure entertainment, as a guy with his dog movie, I thought it was pretty good. Yeah. I kind of enjoyed it. Yeah. The dogs are great. Yeah. The dog performances are wonderful. Shout out Uber, Sika, Riker, and Hondo. Yeah. Great dog names. So in the spirit of those dog names, I think this is going to be true for anybody who watches this movie. But if you grew up a dog person, and I was born in 1982, and my dog Kane was born in 1982. Kane was a German shepherd. I grew up with a German shepherd. He was my dog till he was 12 and he died. I walked him every day. I cleaned up after him. I took care of him. He was very special to me. Anybody who has a relationship to a dog, this movie, it's going to hit, like it's just going to hit. That stuff is just very well handled in the movie. There's a flip side to the movie, which is that the movie is, you know, just like a very kind of Pete Berg-esque jingo with stick military movie. And some of that stuff is a little grown worthy. I thought some of the PTSD flashback material was a little, seemed a little hacky the way that it was handled. And heavy handed. Yeah. And no, I agree with that. And there's one toward the end paired with a lot of voiceover from Brad Pitt that I found to be cringe worthy. The flip side, the dog is great. And Brad Pitt is just basically asleep and or walking over a, you know, tree trunk. It's focused on that and on no emotion whatsoever for the entirety of the movie with one exception when he is relating to the dog. And it's not just for dog people, you can be a normal human being and find this movie. The one thing that you missed, and this is like big spoilers for "Heart of the Beast" the dog movie. The opening scene of the movie. But it is the opening scene of the movie. And it speaks to the way that you related to it. And what I thought was a very interesting way is it opens with the dog standing alone on a road, and it's a somewhere in Alaska. So it's the dog meeting another human being and then cuts to a week earlier. And so if you've seen the whole thing throughout the movie, you know that the dog is going to be okay, which just a little bit change, which is great because I would be freaking out too. The dog was not going to be okay, and I don't like watching movies where the helpless character, be it animal or child, is in peril, and you don't know what's going to happen to them. I'm so torn on that one. But it does, but it really changes, changes every single scene that you're watching because you know at least one of these people or one of these two characters, dog or Brad Pitt, is going to make it. Just think with any like regular movie goer that gives too much of the game away at the beginning of the movie in a way that I would find unsatisfied. And so actually, it's quite interesting that I did miss it because I just didn't have any of that information. So I was like, I don't know what's going to happen here. I'm actually quite invested in the story of this dog and this guy. Sure. But I think the movie understands its audience and makes the right choice because hour 1.30 or 1.45 screening on a Friday afternoon was packed with senior citizens. And people who were around me who were very clearly there for the dog and they were anytime the dog was in parallel or anything, anything bad happened to the dog, gasps from the people around me didn't care anything about Brad Pitt. And so I think those people would have been really, really freaked out. And there is a whole, you know, constituent of movie goers who just have to know is the dog. Is the animal going to be okay? No, you're right. And that's who they're making the movie for. You're right. And that audience wants to feel comfortable and it's interesting to know that there was a lot of behind the scenes tension in terms of which cut of the movie was used and I just can't unknow that and that there was one cut that was heirs cut apparently that was more kind of action focused and more maybe a little bit more grim and that there was another cut that then maybe pit prefer. and his producer Damien Chazelle preferred on the film that was, I guess, for lack of a better word, a little more artistic, you know, a little bit more. It's certainly seemingly like, there's something kind of like ethereal about the movie at times, because the pit character has, it really goes through some extremely grueling physical trauma throughout this movie, and it's also constantly harkening back to the PTSD that he experienced on the battlefield over years. And so- -And the PTSD that the dog experiences. -Yes, they both have PTSD. -Which is very sad. It is. But, you know, some of the survival thriller incidents are really cool. I thought, actually, the sequence where he's going across that bridge and then slips and falls into the ocean. That was terrifying. That stuff is really well. And then other stuff where there's a lot of CGI animals, that stuff really didn't work as well at all. So it's kind of a mixed bag in that respect. I think you missed also the part where before J.K. Simmons shows up, and J.K. Simmons is there for one scene to provide the, to be the audience for Brad Pitt's, like, character's minimal exposition of why he's here at in the woods, which is just, you know, he's served and he's had enough, and like he's seen too much, much like the dog. And so now he's just like a one-with-nature, and they talk a lot about silence and stuff, and how J.K. Simmons is ruining his silence. But before J.K. Simmons shows up, there's this beautiful night shot, the dog, and the pit character are by the lake, campfire. You know, it's just, it's like a man alone. And then he raises his beer to the stars and says, "Miss you guys," which felt like, you know, word the tension between the two things that are trying to go on here, which is like, you know, a man's spiritual quest to get over his stuff, and some really hardcore, like Sheridan coated, special forces, you know, nonsense. Yeah. Yeah. The movie isn't, isn't MAGA or anything like that, but it is Sheridan. It is very Sheridan coated. It's so Sheridan coated. And they're just about sort of like man's war with nature, and his desire to find peace in the face of the battle of life and, you know, the idea that every time you think you've over come something, there's something else around the corner, like that's in all of the Sheridan stuff as well. Okay, let's talk about pit. Yeah. Is this his first old guy role? Because in the entirety of the movie, he's really kind of down or wounded or unable to accomplish what he needs to accomplish. He's constantly failing physically. Right. And he looks old. There's a lot of grain, his beard, and he's really rumpled, and his eyes have bags under them. He's not beautiful in this movie at all. And obviously, he still has a kind of, he's still pissed. He's ahead of some guy. But you know what I'm saying? In the Redford Comp it is like, in the last phase where that, like, that's a handsome old guy, as opposed to that's a handsome guy. But I don't, I'm not, because you know, Redford made a movie like this. He made Jeremiah Johnson, but he made it really more when he was much younger. He made it when he was in his like, late 30s or early 40s. And pit is now, what does pit like 60? He's got to be near 60. So he's over his 62 62. So it's an interesting choice. You know, as recently as Babylon, he was not, he's still looking beautiful in that movie. He's still looking beautiful in the lost city and bullet train. And you know, he's, yeah, it's been kind of a rocky five years for him at the movies. And I thought this was an interesting choice. The idea of him being so taciturn in the movie, yeah, was also a choice. It tracks because there's no humans in the movie other than JK Simmons. So it's logical that he wouldn't talk very much. But you know, he doesn't, he's not able to rely on his movie star charm at all. And even when he does the laugh to the dog, it feels like a real fake force laugh and not in the, not in an intentional comedic way. It's like this is trying to communicate some sort of emotion with this dog. But it's just like you doing the Brad Pitt laugh that we all know, like phoned in. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, anything that feels like merciful in the movie just feels totally like wedged in there. You know, like there's, there's not really any laughs in the movie whatsoever. It's a very somber, scary survival thriller. Yeah. And, and no joy whatsoever. And not really any introspection, which is okay. Like there is one cut of the movie that where that is the point. This is just a person who has seen too much. And so it's just, it's just trying to do stuff and trying to survive. Yeah. And like all of the set pieces are pretty exciting. The connective tissue that you need because this is a movie about Brad Pitt and a dog for the most part. So it is, it's he needs to hold the frame. And when he's not crossing a log or, you know, dragging things up from the bottom of the ocean or the lake or whatever he's physically doing, he's not giving you any like emotional energy or charisma or anything that you do need in a movie to carry people along, especially when you're by yourself. It's, you know, it's not Matt Damon in the Martian. Right. It's a good comparison. And the dog really gets all that stuff. The dog gets all the applause moments. The dog gets all the emotionality of the movie. And, and also the, you know, the dog is there. People are rooting for the dog. You, you can't not. So I guess Brad Pitt is just like I can be asleep. But he is sort of asleep for it until major spoiler alert for spoiler alert. Well, I mean, there is just one scene in the end before things reach their natural conclusion, conclusion where he comes alive for two minutes. And, and it's, and it's when he's relating to the dog and he's like, you've been the greatest, you know, friend of my life. And I also started crying. Yeah. This is lovely. But it just works really well. But, but he, but suddenly Brad Pitt is back. And it's really, really noticeable that he is, he is back and he is like, there is interiority where it's just kind of been on autopilot. And I think it's like on autopilot for most of F1. Yeah. And it's five years. Yeah. And it's just wolves. You know, like I said, lost city bullet train. And F1 is kind of a forgettable movie. F1 is kind of a similar thing where it's he's just like I just want to drive cars. And I guess you can write some dialogue around it that I'll deliver halfheartedly. And that is a bit of a bummer. Yeah. Um, it's, it, I was trying to figure out whether or not I think that the movie, like the decision to do the film is cynical or not, or if it's just the act, the natural evolution of a matinee idol. And like, this is just something that they do when they get into this stage of their career. Um, because you know, we talked about this with Cliff Booth coming in a couple of months. And yeah, he's, he's clearly an attorney point. Like F1 was a huge hit. Right. But prior to that, it probably had been since once upon a time when he really was like at the center of a major movie. I mean, it's, it feels a lot like he and Cruz are just kind of going back and forth with, with digger being the exception of you read a certain reach, a certain age, a certain level of fame, a certain level of interest, uh, and/or confusion in your personal life and people's image of you. And you just disappear into these action movies and this, this big budget spectacle. I mean, you know, they're trading driving movies like they're, they've done survival movies. They'll do, uh, has pit flown anything, planes in the air yet. I'm sure that he has. I can't remember specifically. The other thing I was thinking about is like, yeah, he has done movies like this before. He's just always been the younger guy in doing them. Right. Seven years into bet has some qualities of this, um, a river runs through it has some qualities of this. Like he has been like a wilderness man, you know, he has gotten out into the natural world. So it does feel like it is a little bit of a continuation of the earliest days of his career. A river runs through it is a great example of this. He's so great in that movie. And so I like, I get, I do get it as a choice. His next film is called The Riders, which is a Edward Berger, I guess, drama thriller about, um, a guy who I think his daughter is kidnapped and he has to get her back. So it's like a movie that's coming out next year. And then after that, I don't think he has anything on the books. IMDB says oceans 14, but I don't know grand assault. Yeah, they've been talking about that for like, yeah, the ocean's prequel is also next year with Bradley Cooper. So that's I think that's set in like the 60s. I think every time Clooney does something, he's like, there's a script. We want to do it. And then, you know, then six months go by. So does this movie have you guys worried for Cliff Booth? I don't really think they're connected. It just is like, is he going to give a good performance? That's really the question. So right, you know, this performance is like, as you said, it's, it's just kind of remote and shut down. There's not just not a lot to hold on to for much of the movie other than just his physical toll. So I think it's indicative of anything per se. It's interesting. This movie still got to 20 million. Well, it's, I mean, then this is kind of what bummed me out, but it's still it's Brad Pitt and a dog. So that is recognizable to a lot of people. It's kind of grandfathered in. Yeah. This is the Paramount movie. It is a weekend. It does. And to me, this is like, this is what you can expect. Yeah. This is what you can expect. And so that is, I guess the fact that it made 20 million is good in that sense. But I find everything else about it to be a little bit of a reminder of where the industry is and where certain decision makers are going. Yeah. I mean, look, on the one hand, I've liked with David Aire movies in the past. I think he's been off the path for the last seven or eight years. But like if you Chris and I talking about Fury or sabotage or harsh times. Like I like those early movies that he made. I think he made some real clunkers in the interim. But on its on its sheet, when you look at the it's like, okay, movie star movie, original story, you know, a very skilled kind of action filmmaker. It's an on paper. It should totally work. And it like it kind of it kind of does, but it does feel like it is appealing to a bygone generation of movie goer. And that's why it was a lot of 60 year olds. Okay. What's next on our list? Oh, we're gotten island. Yeah. Okay. So this is the big DreamWorks animated film of the weekend. Another original movie. This is what when I say like this is an exciting weekend at the movies. It's because there is a lot of originality. Avengers Endgame notwithstanding to go see. So this movie is directed by Joel Crawford and Janelle Mercado. It stars her, the musician, Liza Soberano, Dave Franco, Jenny Slate, Manny Jacinto. So a two best friends who become stranded on the mystical world of Nicoli, where their only escape might cost them their shared lifetime of memories. The film is really rooted in Filipino mythology. It's about these two high school girls who are at the precipice of starting their lives. And then something crazy happens. Yeah. And they're transported somewhere. And so I saw this with my wife and daughter Alice, a week and a half ago. And the movie ended. And Alice was like, that was really fun, but scary. And my wife said, I hated it. And you suggest that you didn't love it either. So I saw it with my four year old nox and who spent two thirds of the movie in my seat with me, which is not normally the case. He's normally like, I'm fine. Leave me alone. Let me have popcorn. And the lights went up and he said, that was a bad guy movie, which meant that he was quite scared. And I thought that it was so hyperactive that I couldn't focus on anything that was happening and felt a little bad about bringing a four year old to something so so frenetic. And it's extremely frenetic and it's a total aftermath of Spider-Verse movie to me because the film maker's previous film, Pusson Boots, The Last Wish is very similar to this, too, where you've got a lot of different kind of animation styles being smashed together. And you've got a really high energy, fast-cutting style of filmmaking that does feel very social media. Yes. Short-form vertical video influenced. Plus, you've got like a very manic. And I thought idiosyncratic and a fun way sense of humor, but that sense of humor lends itself to ratatat, ratatat, ratatat, punchline, punchline, punchline over and over again. I liked it. I didn't love it. I liked it because I thought it was completely original. I just didn't know anything about the Filipino mythology. Right. I thought the animation style was impressive. I thought the vocal performances from the two leads were really good. I liked that it centered two girls and that it was just about two girls in their friendship and that was the emotional crux of the whole movie. So I really just like watching movies like that with my daughter and I like watching her get connected to stories like that. But, and we talked about this with the Super Mario Galaxy movie and I think that there is a similar thing here. I think there's a more artistic version of it. But the speed of these movies is kind of strange and are they tested to serve the audience and is this what kids want? I've been trying to figure that out as we have kids that are, you know, they might have been a year or two, two young for this movie, but maybe for seven or eight, nine year olds and is that what they want? I think it's a combination of this speed and the, like the scaryness and there, there's a demon character who came up again throughout the night, which is how you know that my son was really. She made an impression. Yeah. But also, sometimes I wonder if he knows what's going on in anything that he's watching. And halfway through the movie, he goes, are they out of the bad world yet? So there was something that he was able to, to catch on to. I think that there was just so much else streaming by him so fast that like was both overstimulating and a little confusing. So I, but I, I really did watch it just thinking like I don't think that this is what your brain needs right now. And like, and some of it is just that it's probably pitched at an older audience, which, you know, that's fine. But I felt bummed about it. And then also my brain really, really liked everything that centered on the, the two girls and their friendship and even the way that their memories of their friendship and, and so much of that is in the, the Filipino culture that is so inherent and like, you know, feels lived in within the movie. That's the best part of the movie. But all of the other characters in the other worlds, like, I don't know what Dave Franco was doing. I, like, I don't know what that dog was doing, but he was a dog, yeah, who's a dog boy, sure, who's part dog, part boy. But when a stick comes around, he turned, he goes full dog, but he's not a boy. He's a wolf, the rest of the time. I think he's like teen wolf or like, like, like, like, yeah, so I think he's a dog boy. All right. And I would say that that was not the best day of Franco performance I've seen this year. And is what is the best day for me to say is, no, regretting you was last year. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So I guess this is the best idea. What about idiots? Idiots was better than this. Yeah. It was. Yeah. Dave Franco is doing a lot. It's a very, and also nothing. It's a very animated performance in an animated movie. It's funny because it's one of those movies where you see this in a lot of animated and kids movies now, too, where the demon who is presented initially, the sort of vampire or flying vampire which character is actually not really the villain, like the true villain is the Jenny Slate character who is a memory demon and who wants, you know, wants to siphon things from from your mind and keep them for themselves, which I was trying to figure out is this, like, a metaphor for Instagram or social media or something where you take photos, they'd, like, they take your photo. Or for getting who you are and, you know, where you, you know, and where you came from and like, the, that your experience to find who you are. Yeah. And that doesn't mean that you can't go do things. I was so nervous. We were going to have a Lilo and Stitch situation where she wasn't going to go to school. Okay. And I was just like, what is it with these movies being against young women and STEM? But it worked out. I love the ending of the movie. But I don't want to spoil it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear your concerns and Nox's concerns, should I, I, I support them. Well, I just think also this movie only made $12 million, which for, you know, a big animated kids movie is not, I think, what they were hoping. I know. I know. I know. I know the reason I wanted to have this, the frame around this conversation. Yeah. It's like, I knew that part of the beast and this movie and prime time to an extent. And a lot of the films we're going to get overwhelmed by Avengers and Game Encore. And a movie like this about young girls in a non-white culture, not being able to succeed is kind of a bummer. And it's why there are eight millions movies and it's why there are, you know, listen, listen. I think is the sixth film in the Shrek series, you know, and we're getting Shrek 5 next year. I just kind of want to stump for the original stories. And so it's, it's really hard. But I do, I do agree with your sentiment. I know I leaned us too. Yeah. That it was just too manic. And I don't know how we get, how do we convince the filmmakers to just like slow it down just a little bit. That was also the response I had to Super Mario Galaxy and that made, you know, more money than God. Yeah. I mean, on Minecraft, movie is very similar. Yeah. You know, in terms of the speed with which the story is being told and the jokes are being delivered. And I feel like there was a lot of that in our culture when we were growing up in the 80s and 90s. And now I feel like it's a hyperspeed. Yes. Says the man who listens to podcasts on 2X. Well, I'm accumulating and retaining information as a part of my work. Okay. Not as a part of my entertainment. All right. Let's speak briefly about your mother, your mother, your mother. Since this film is still in very limited release and is doing very well and limited release. This is the new film from Boston Tark. He was the director who was supposed to make with Mahershal Ali Marvel's blade film, which I guess after lots of script discussion and delays ultimately never transpired. And so this is the movie that they made in the aftermath of that film falling apart. It also stars John Cho, Jean Carlo Esposito, Abu Kar Ali, Tramel Tillman, Tiffany Boone. It follows Latif, a devoutly religious hitman who embarks on a desperate journey across Houston to protect his children after his wife dies, confronting forces closing in in beliefs, threatening to unravel the journey, the desperate journey is for breast milk. I didn't know this till I went in. This was an incredible and really upsetting and stressful plot point in a movie. And really like, you know, there is Latif has kind of two struggles. He has his family, emotional issues. And then there is also kind of like an outside villain. I think the family stuff works way more than the outside villain, even though the outside villain allows for some some action sequences that are very exciting something for you, something for me. Yeah. Well, that you don't quite get when you're just like scrounging around through the even incorporate the best breast milk into those action sequences in really, really genius and upsetting ways. Yeah. it's one of those where I watched this and I was like, okay, so someone in this film had to do this exact thing and was driving around the city trying to figure out whether it's actually finding breast milk or whether it's the formula shortage or something. And reminding me of the formula shortage during COVID. And there's just something like this has been lived and turned to a movie. And I think because we have both been through that, we understand it in a very specific way. But many people go through that. It is incredibly hard to keep your child fed in this very literal sense. And so it uses something very literal to access something that is like also very emotional and more universal, just like you have to do right by your kids. That's right. The primal concern of every parent, which is take care of your family and no matter what. And I mean, look, Marshall Olly is like one of the great living actors has been forever. And it's so, but this is like a really challenging part right because he needs to be both like Rambo predator and also like a deeply religious man who's trying to follow the paths of his faith. And also like a desperate widower, you know, a person who has like no partner to turn to to work with. He has three children and he's on this quest. But also, you know, as a father, he doesn't totally understand like he hopes that formula will work. And then he finds out formula won't work and his kid won't keep it down. And then so he has to figure out how to get breast milk. And then he keeps, he sort of tries to play by the rules at the beginning to get what he needs from doctors and from the institutions and then those institutions don't work with him the way that he knows how to work and live through through. Well, those institutions don't work. I mean, it's still it's also just like an incredible portrait of just the and reminded me a lot of the Roseburn movie. If I had legs, I'd kick you where it's just that there are these entire systems that are quote unquote supposed to help families. And you just watch the inhumanity like shot in front of you every single way. And we say that is two parents with a tremendous amount of resources. So it's it's it's really, really smart and specifically observed. And I think Mahershala is obviously just so so good. Yeah. And can kind of he can do the range both of the like the De Valley religious person and like, you know, the sense of duty to in one direction, the sense of duty to family. There are still real moments of, you know, levity and it's very funny. It's not. Yeah. He's he's just such a fully formed person. And that's honestly without saying much, you know, it's kind of like you put it up against Brad Pitt's performance of not saying anything and just feeling like no one's there. He's one of our great actors. Yeah. The movie is also this really cool genres to where you do get that deep emotional family drama stuff and you do get the sort of melodrama of being on this race. But it's just also a complete samurai assassin movie where he's taking all this training from blade. And he's literally an assassin who kills with a with a katana with a sword. Yes. And so you get this occasionally really good action sequences. I would say it's about 50%. They were I thought they were great. The other 50% I felt like they were a little labored and maybe just like this is a more modestly scaled movie and a bigger movie might have you might have gotten even better stuff out of it. I thought I found John Cho incredibly amusing. Completely against type. It was very funny. But those are a lot of that part is is broad and also fantastical. And there is something about which that's the school I'm talking about is purposeful because it's paired with this thing that is so so so realistic and so kind of grounded in the every day. And you know, it's not surprising that the breast milk half of it affected me more. But it's funny. And also that this is that this movie got released that this is a studio movie. And it's about, you know, it doesn't spoil too much to say that John Cho was like trying to kill evangelical Christian. Yeah. And that rocks. It's fascinating that it exists. I think it's a I think it's in. I think it's going to go into like 50 cities next week and then expand even further after that. Yeah. Highly recommend people check this out. It's very, very good. And it's it is kind of like a perfect fusion of things you and I are looking for. I was nauseous watching it though. Though I don't know. Do you still have the sense memories of trying to find this stuff? Like for me, it was still very physical. I mean, I didn't dress feed. There's something different to that. It's just like a fair if anyone out there did it was like really, really this was way scarier than any horror movie I've seen on my journey. I drew the same connection that you did though, which is that it does. It did remind me specifically of in, you know, August of 2021 just driving to like 19 different pharmacies trying to find formulas somewhere. So even in that very small, very simple way, it hits a narrative beat that maybe I've never seen before. That's the other thing is like. Yeah. Thousands and thousands and thousands and a hundred years of movies in and they still came up with a new idea where I was like, God, this is just clever. Like this is this is exactly what would happen if you had an infant in your wife died. So it was just it was really smart. Okay, let's talk about the weight. Mm hmm. You did see the way, right? I did. Okay. So the weight is this new film from Patrick McKinley. It stars Ethan Hawke, Russell Crowe, Julia Jones, Austin Emilio. It's about a man who's desperate to save what is left of his family during the height of the Great Depression. He's a veteran who while imprisoned is hired to help smuggle a fortune in gold across 100 miles of impenetrable wilderness. So we've premiered at Sundance and was just released last weekend. And what do you think of this? I will go anywhere Ethan Hawke goes. We're almost anywhere. Sometimes so that he's is he purge or is he no, black phone? He is both the original purge film and the black phone. Yes, yes. Ended Sidious. Purge, great idea, but I don't feel like I need to sit through the whole thing. I get it. I think I've been five purge films. Yeah. And plus the sex purge. I was going to say thank you to one night only. Yeah, so he's wonderful. And once again, the dramatic scene over a ravine really freaked me out. Otherwise, you know, I was kind of like this, it was good. Yeah, it was fine. I think it's I think it's solid. It was like a solid thriller. I think the attention to period details really good. I think there's a couple of sequences that are very well done. It's interesting to talk about this movie and heart of the beast and your mother, your mother, your mother, together because they're all kind of the same in some ways. Yeah. You know, they're singularly focused on these aging men who are desperately trying to accomplish something that is very, very physically taxing. And the way that the actors handle it is all different. You know, they're it's mostly a superficial comparison, but it does kind of tell you a little bit about like what gets made in Hollywood these two. Yeah. And what you know, it's it's it's a Jude's rock movie at the weekend. We can't let the movies all three. It's funny that your mother, your mother, your mother is the funniest of these three movies. Like the weight is also not very funny. And it's it feels very inspired by sorcerer, this sort of like descent into hell man, man, man on a mission movie. They're on foot instead of on a truck, but like the crossing the rope bridge, the, you know, getting through the depths of the forest and trying to survive and countering strangers who want to take something from them. I didn't really know anything about this, but I learned reading about the movie afterwards that it is based on some real history, which is that in 1933, due in part to the great depression, of course, FDR disallowed citizens from hoarding gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates. And so that dramatically changed the value of the dollar when this happened. And so you could see that this, you know, this this gold is worth more than ever. And then Gerald Ford repealed the act in 1974. And everything, you know, went swimmingly from that on. Do you have a lot of gold? I have some. I kind of don't want to put it on record. How much I have? Why not? No, it stays with me at all times. So, um, yeah, I thought this was a solid thriller. I'd be very curious to see what this filmmaker does next. One small note I have is that I really like when Ethan Hawkets to be charming and funny. And that doesn't mean that he can't give a more like an anguished performance. He did that in blue moon, right? One of the great things about blue moon is that he's so entertaining, even though there's this pit of sadness inside of him. And this movie, he's just in a lot of pain. It's true. And he's also fighting to get his daughter back. Yeah, that is kind of tacked on and sort of sad. And then kind of like unearned, unbridled enthusiasm at the end. But that was just my take. How would you do in a prison work camp? I don't think I would do well. How would you do? Not well. How would you do going over a ravine? Whether by-- I'm not afraid of that. By bridge or by-- I don't get scared of that sort of thing. I'm not scared of heights. I'm not really scared of heights. I'm very scared of heights. That's one thing where I just don't really. I mean, I think I would prefer the rope bridge to the log. You know, I am training, but the log is just sort of a balanced thing. Like I stand with Odin on that one who did just not, did not want to do it. I probably the most like, I don't know if it was the scariest, but the most perilous hike I've ever been on is angels landing in Mount and Zion National Park, which is in Utah. And it's a very, very narrow ascent to a perch at the top of a large rock formation. And under normal circumstances, if it were empty, it would be not that scary. But when I did it, it was a very, very crowded day at the park. park. And so there were people going up and coming down and you're about this far apart from people. Right. Well, you just don't like being close to people. Well, that's true. But in this case, you really don't want it because if somebody just like puts their arm out, they could just hit you and you just topple over down the rocks. I mean, it is scary. I don't like you. I wasn't that scared. But is it up against like one side though? Both sides are unblocked. Oh, I don't like that at all. Yeah. That's the proper. It's a proper hike. It's an extension outside of the wide open spaces. Like I don't, you know, wide open mountains, wide open mountains, or no, wide open plains, but also if you're inching along something and there's a drop on the other side, that to me is less scary than having to be out with nothing on either side to hold on to. Okay. So you're not going to design a national park. What about the narrows? You know about the narrows? No. The narrows is a wonderful, it's almost like a series of slot canyons through a larger canyon that fills with water. And so the hike is essentially a flat hike across flat land. But as you walk through, the water gets higher and higher and then lower and lower and then higher and higher. You can go down these slot canyons and you can have the water kind of fill up up to your neck or down at your feet. And you get a huge walking stick. You have to wear special kind of shoes. But you are essentially hiking through a low level river. Also one of the hardest things I've ever done. But very, very satisfying to get to the end of it. Why would you do that? I like, I sometimes I'm just like, to be wild. And then once you have to get special shoes, you know, I like having special shoes just to wear in my life. I don't know. I don't like gear. I don't like this. That just seems like what is the reward? Then you're there. What's the view? That's well, you can get the angels landing as a great view. Well, sure. The canyons don't really have a view. But when you're inside of a canyon and the thing that I liked about doing that hike, I'm so glad I'm sharing this. I haven't been to design in seven years, not since Avengers End Game, is as you're moving along more and more people fall away and turn around because it's one way and one way out. Oh, so it's about making you feel special. Well, it's about accomplishing something. But into the end of it. But like you won't go to the beach. The beach is boring swimming and like, so you don't like the swimming. It's just the accomplishing beach. And you know my whole story with the beach. I don't like the sand. I don't want to be on the sand. You'll go in a fucking canyon with like an canyon. It's beautiful. And you're swimming with like boots on. What are the special shoes? It's like water shoes. That's pretty common. I don't like water shoes. That's another thing. It's like I want to be able to swim. They're more like like proper water hiking shoes, not like water shoes that you wear. I mean either. I want to, you know, I want to be free. Sounds like you wouldn't do well in the weight. Sounds like you wouldn't do well in a prison camp. Sounds like you wouldn't do well in your mother, your mother, your mother, sounds like you wouldn't do well at Zion National Park. What about your mother, your mother, your mother, when the breast milk spills on the floor. Painful. Was the quality filming the the worst scariest thing that happened in any of these movies. It's a great shot. Yeah. Like it hit. Okay, let's pivot as far away from these stories as we possibly can. Three movies about men made it to the theaters. And then this is the movie about the woman and a man that went straight to to Amazon Prime. The film is the love hypothesis. I was not aware of this movie until last Friday, right before I saw you when I saw that it was the number three movie on Letterbox. And I was like, okay, yeah, that means this is something. And it's directed by Claire Scanlon. We last spoke of her many years ago with set it up her breakthrough streaming romcom. I think so. I'm not the first of it's kind, but close to this new movie stars Lily Reinhardt, Tom Bateman, Rachel Marsh, Jebuki Young White, after an impulsive kiss to scientists end up in a fake relationship, testing their theories about love and each other. Yes. You want to give some background on this story, which I also learned last night. Well, I also I learned about it in real time. And then I called in our friend who has some experience in the fan fiction world and sent me voice notes trying to explain fan fiction to me. So thank you, Hannah. And hopefully I have some of this down. So this story was originally self published as Ray Lowe fanfic, which to bring people in is fanfic shipping Ray and Kylo Ren from Star Wars. And that is a very, very robust subgenre in an extremely robust publishing world that has turned it to many of your favorite romances if you have those. Hannah reminded me that 50 Shades of Grey was originally Twilight fanfic. So this is how things happen. So in this case, once the fanfic hits a certain level, the names are replaced of the original characters with different, with just random names. So Ray and Kylo Ren were at some point replaced with Olive and Adam. Adam being Adam driver who played Kylo Ren in Star Wars. Yes. And they are Olive is a PhD student as scientist. And Adam is an accomplished scientist. He's called Dr. Evil is his name and there she's a cancer researcher. She's researching a pancreatic cancer. It wants to. I don't really know what kind of doctor he is. And Claire, but he's a professor. I think I was I think I was learning about fanfiction at that point. Sorry to the love hypothesis. And they embark on a fake relationship in order to achieve goals in their professional and personal lives. And then wouldn't you know it? The fake relationship, you know, shows some real sparks. Shocking. Okay. So actually had feelings for each other. So the thing that I wanted to understand about fanfiction. Okay. So this starts as Ray is a scientist. She's a pancreatic cancer researcher when they're when they're writing this. But I was like, is she also like Ray a Palpatine turned Skywalker? Like is she still a Jedi? Do they have lightsabers? And the answer is no, apparently. Why aren't you saying no? Like why? But what is the essence of Ray? I've seen the three movies. She's got nothing except that she's a girl who the lightsaber comes to. I generally get where you're coming from. I just know a little bit more about fanfiction. So I just knew that if you take her out of the world, then she's no longer wielding a lightsaber while boning her, you know, biology professor. Okay. Yeah. I think so fanfiction is like a great springboard. I think for a lot of writers. Yes. Where you get like, you find an entryway because you have an already predetermined character that has a point of view and specific characteristics. And then you can build a world around them that usually comes from a world that you know and understand and like. Yeah. So I mean, it's really, it's just using archetypes, right? And it's using archetypes, but with slightly more corporatization, IP, like baked into it. Yeah. But you are also stripping away like all of the world building. I think when you you are. And I think it's a question of based on how good a writer you are, whether those are superficial qualities or whether they're essential qualities to telling a character story. Yeah. Obviously, I would love to see a movie in which Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver played a student and a professor. But we're still acting like Kylo Ren and Ray. That would be a fascinating, creative, corporate experiment. We're never going to get that obviously. But we do have Daisy Ridley's husband playing. Yes, we do. Adam, the Adam Driver character. What is your what are your feelings about Tom? But he's quite tall. So I was like, Oh, I get it. He's tall. And they have a like a fake John Williams March, like Imperial March playing every time he stores down a hallway. He's known as Doctor Evil in the film. Yeah, which is very funny. So he's tall. And she Lily Reinhartt, who a Riverdale fan. Yes. Who plays Olive is very charming. So I enjoyed yourself. Well, it's sort of like it was what it was. I mean, I knew I was watching a streaming movie based on fanfic based on Ray and Kylo Ren. And there were still a couple of moments. When they evil, there's another doctor who is not up to one of the most cartoonishly ridiculous characters in movie history. So when he did his speech, I was like, what is going on here? It at least snapped me back from my second screen. And I was like, excuse me. Are you guys really trying to do this? You know, he played Noel coward in Downton Abbey, the grand finale. I was trying to figure out where I recognize him from. Rememorable actor as well. Yeah. The scene in question is abominable. It's just a joke. It's horribly written. The whole thing is horribly written. I we can do better. We can do better. This is not my genre. And I'm not neither an expert nor an enthusiast, but calm calm. This is one of those popular movies in America right now. I know bad movies are popular all the time. Some people think Avengers Endgame is horrible. I get it. But like, this is really, and if this is the movie that is for women this weekend, it's it's very disappointing. Quite poor. I agree with you. And it's kind of fascinating that like, there are one, I don't disagree with you that I think Lily Reinhart is charming. She's a TV actress. Nothing personal, but like she's not a movie star. It's a TV movie. It's a TV movie. Tom Bateman's fine. I feel like he's, you know, classic British guy trying to do like a monotone American accent and like the whole time like get this sketch the British just wants to to jump out of him so badly. - And also once again, like the science community is international, at least until Trump has his way, but so he could be, but he also could be, - It could be British. - Yeah. - And just like at Stanford, you know? - Yeah, the other thing is, and this is a petty complaint that has been happening since the dawn of Beverly Hills 902. I know, but everyone who was like 35 years old, like what? - I don't, these are PhD students. For each of large, the actresses 34 years old. - It takes a really long time. - But they're like first year PhD students at Stanford. - Are they first year? - Are they two friends meet at the beginning of the movie? - Well, sure, but then it spans a long time because then-- - 10 years? - I think more than one year, I didn't really bump on that. People can reinvent themselves all the time. - Well, and Tom Bateman's 37, and Lily Reinhardt's like 32, and it's meant to be this like huge chasm in terms of their life experience. - Yeah, yeah, they grew up together, I don't know. What are we doing? Again, it's a petty thing, but it's one of those things were the whole time. I was just like, where are the 24-year-olds? - Yeah, well, they're the 24-year-olds are not at Stanford completing their PhD research. There's not, you have to do other things first to get the grant, right? - Sure, yeah, no, I mean, I agree, but the movie just starts with them at the beginning. It's not like it doesn't start with them. - Again, it's a petty grievance. I thought the pacing of the movie and the writing of the movie was really bad. It's like way too long. There's enough here for a 42-minute episode of television. This is just not a movie. And there's a ton of other movies that are like this, that are better, that we put the most famous people in Hollywood in. - It's true. - You know, like this was Sandra Bullock's bread and butter for 20 years. - Hey, I agree. They're not all of them were, you know, one Harry Metzali, and that's okay. But I do think they weren't. But a B minus studio movie with like real production value on writing. - I agree with you. And I like, I mean, this is part of a trend where, you know, fanfiction and like self-publishing has become such a major part of romance novels which are huge, huge business. And so the audience is built in. And so we are getting a lot of this like fanfic to streaming romcom TV movie pipeline. And I just, the source material is not good enough. The source material is not good enough and also like studios and the people green lighting these, just have a price point of fix to it that is just much lower and this doesn't yield. Like the, you know, the rights gripped and the right actors, the right production, the, you know, the soundtrack on this is a nightmare as always for any movie, you know, directed at a woman. And I, but I think there's also not. - The sex scene song is hysterical. - It's hysterical. It's ridiculous, but I also think they're just, they're not trying to make one Harry Metzali. I think they're very consciously making just like a different lower budget. - But it's the, to me, it's the proposal. That was the movie I thought of. The Sandra Bullock Ryan Reynolds movie. Where it's like, I'm not a huge fan of that movie, but it's a huge hit and people loved it. They loved that movie. - Yeah. - And it's the same thing where it's like the older person and the younger person and they have to pretend to be together and then by minute 82, you realize, oh my God, they do really love each other. - Sure. - It is a tried and true thing. Ernst Lubich was doing this 80 years ago. It's a very familiar framework. It's just. - But the execution matters. - It does. - And but like, and I just, I really do think that for both like budget and library reasons, we're just like in an era of way lower level execution. And it's a bummer. - You ladies have to stand up and say, we want the atrical. - Okay. We don't want to settle for Cap and Peggy. - I mean, we did. And then no one went to see one I'd only because the federal government had banned sex and no one and planted biotrackers and everyone and no one else in development was like, "Hmm, should we explore that?" How's that gonna make people feel? - I, let's put a pin in one I don't need. It'll come up again in this episode. - Okay. - I think part of the challenge is that, stars and their agents know that these movies are not theatrically appealing for whatever reason right now. And so the best of the best don't go into them. That's why Monica Barbaro gets her chance to star in a movie. When it's, when I'd only, that's why Lily Reinhardt gets a chance to star in a TV movie when it's the love hypothesis. - Wow, were you a good science student? - I was okay. But it was-- - Science corner. - Science corner, obviously. - Yeah, no, I did all of the science, I'm like I took the most advanced courses because I was trying to, you know, pad the college resume. But I wouldn't say it came to me naturally, no. So it was sort of brute force and nerdiness and I will, I refuse to be bad at this. Physics though, no, that's not how my brain works. So there you go. - Okay. Were you? - Terrible. - Yeah. - Easily my worst subject. - Everything else was fine. - In college, all of the required science courses that I took were like the true gut courses. - So I got a liberal arts education, no science or math pre-rex whatsoever in college. - Really? - Really. - I also had a liberal arts education, but we had pre-rex. - No pre-rex was wonderful. Glided right through three and a half years, see you later. The history of concrete and speaking of science. There's some science in this movie. - Yeah, let's just do a-- - This has changed the way that I read construction books to my children for the positive. - Oh, okay. And I know a lot more about concrete and cement. - It's very informative film, not that seems to have been the intention among other things. This movie also is not in very many theaters, so I don't want to spoil too much, but this coming Friday, it expands quite a bit from where it is right now. And I hope people will listen to the interview with John Wilson. But the long line of the film is a filmmaker applies lessons from a hallmark movie writing workshop to pitch a documentary about concrete, our oldest active building material. Did you watch How To? - I watched some of them, but as with all TV, I can't watch all the episodes. - There are definitely-- - It's echoes. - There are Monday mornings of this episodes of this pod over the last five years, where I'm just like, how to is cooking. This isn't a TV podcast, but I love that show. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And this is an interesting extension and continuation of what John was doing on that show, which is that he's attempting to bring a very kind of dry, explanatory approach to the world that is also quite rye and absurd. And I really, really, really appreciate his willingness to just go down rabbit holes that 99% of filmmakers would not go down. And so when he meets someone that he thinks is interesting-- - Yes. - As he says in the interview, like, he will go spend long periods of time with them and just give you, you talk about characterization for some of the fictional people in these movies. Like Wilson like consistently introduces you to people within one minute, you're like, wow, there's a whole world, maybe a weird world or an ugly world or a strange world. There's a whole world inside this person. And I also as a former New Yorker, he's just great at the energy and vibe of a New York environment where you walk into any store and people will chat you up and they have a whole strong point of view about how everything ought to be in the world that I really admire and think is fun. - Yeah, his eye for people and that's really the discovery of this movie and most of the how to's. And then you also learn some facts about the differences between cement and concrete. - Would you say you're a concrete person? - No, not. I guess I have more respect for it now. - What do you, more? - So, well, this is, yes. - Marble? - Yeah, sure. If we got a, you know, and in general, movies with scenes at the Carrera Marble mine work for me, see the brutalist and the great arch, which I don't think you ever saw. - Haven't seen that. - Which is Clay Spang building a lot of fonts in France. And it's basically the brutalist but France. And the enemy is the French government. - Why did that movie come out in America? - I don't know. - Did it come out of America? - It maybe it did. It was it can and then I watched it on the plane. - But the great arch. The great arch they, but they also go to Carrera. So maybe Marble, it's been an interesting thing now because we're reading a lot of construction books at home, but you know, they're politics built into everything. And so the new one that does feature a lot of concrete is also about tearing down buildings and trees and then rebuilding large buildings. And I don't feel great about that. - No. - Yes, favorite books. So I don't know what to do. - Well, is he really absorbing it? - I don't know. But you know. - Well, I throw those up to be Andrew Carnegie, an industrializing tycoon who just destroys our ecology. But the mass is the great fortune and then becomes a philanthropist. Would you take that trade off? - No, because I just really don't wanna be bulldozing trees. It's noisy on top of everything else. - It's a bulldozing. - Yeah, the bulldozing and the cement mixing and all of that stuff. - That is noisy. - Yeah. - You wanna live in nature, like Brad Pitt and Heart of the Beast. - Yes, yeah. With my brown Belgian ale, were you there for that part? - It was, around the campfire. - Yeah. - That's it, no more movies coming out this year. We got 'em all. We knocked 'em all out. Pretty good, right? Last episode. - No, we gotta make it to Beatles, come on. - No, it's X-Men. It's Benix. And we're TBD on what's it called? - Days of Thunder. - Days of Thunder too. That was my son playing at the car. That was the other problem with Forgotten Island, which is the key clock to the arcade before we went in. And he was like, "I wanna drive the car." And I said after the movie. So every time. - What theater are you at? - Oh, "Alombra." - Yeah, and every time it was scary, he would just say, "At the top of his lungs, "can we go drive the car?" And I was like, "No, we are learning "about the plate of the teenage woman, okay." - Very important. Speaking of important, let's go now to my conversation with John Wilson. (upbeat music) John Wilson is here. I'm already laughing. I'm such a fan of your work and. - Funny looking. - We, you know, I'm from Long Island, John. - Oh, you are? - Yeah. - Oh, wow. Let's talk with you a little bit about growing up on Long Island. - Absolutely. - Because I found it to be quite odd, and we were laughing a bit about, I live in Los Angeles, you're here in Los Angeles, but you live in New York. I know you moved there, you're born there. Were you born in Queens? - Yeah, I was born in Queens. - Yeah, so my whole family is also from Queens. So we have some things in common. What did you make of Long Island as a kid? - I feel like I was. It was a nice place to play. There was a lot of room to run around and do, like, make little movies. And I think I was really eager to get out when I was growing up, because it felt like, culturally, it didn't really have what I wanted. So I think that's why I kind of sank into the movies and, you know, all that stuff growing up. And I don't know, but looking back, I feel like it was like a really kind of calm place to raise a kid, you know, and I get it. - Yeah, I mostly am with you. - We're in Long Island, were you? - Huntington? - Huntington Station, yeah. - Yeah, so you had this in a Mart Center. I mean, I did, as it was. - I did. - I mean, it's still there? - Yeah, the Huntington School. I feel like. - So what town were you from? - I was from Rocky Point. - Yeah, kind of near Port Jefferson on the North Shore. - Yeah, sure. My dad lives near there. - Cool. - Do you guys have been friends? - Yeah, maybe. - I have a doubt it. - Probably in the same. I can call him at one point. - What? How did you feed your, I know you picked up a camera at a young age and we're always making movies, but like in terms of just watching movies and getting interested in film and television, how did you do it? Were you like a person going to blockbuster, video stores? Did you have like a film literacy as a young person? - Yeah. I feel like we would go to blockbuster a lot. Yeah, definitely Hollywood video. It was always a dream to work there. I would always apply and I would never get an interview. - Why wouldn't they take you? - I don't know, it's probably why I ended up opening my own movie theater. Just to, yeah, you got to build it yourself if they won't have you. - Now you have revenge on them because they're gone and you're still here. - Exactly, yeah, we'll see. But yeah, I would just obsessively watch whatever I could. And we would make movies every single day and we'd just give something a title and just make some absurdist comedy short thing. And we also used to just dumpster dive in the blockbuster and Hollywood video. So we would get all of the stand-ups from all the movie promotions and those were all over my room. And we used to steal all the DVD cases that they discarded from their dumpster so that we could burn our own DVDs and make them nice and sell them out of our trunk. - Really? - Yeah. - Wow, a bootleger. - Yeah, we were entrepreneurial. What was your favorite standee that you had in your room? - Oh, I feel like we had, I don't know. A lot of them were just like whatever you could get. So it was just like, I don't know, like Tinker Tailor, Soldier Spy, you know, just like random like movies like that. - Did you, when you were making, well, first of all, who's we, who were you making movies with? - I had a kind of rotating cast of collaborators in high school. - I think early it was just a couple of friends from around the corner and then I started working with, I mean, I was with Chris Maggio and my friends Andrew and Alex, they were, we were kind of like a, I don't know, we would make a lot of movies together, but Chris and I have continued to make work together like to this day and, you know, we still live very close to each other. And I don't know, it's been cool to see kind of how things have evolved over the years. - Were you guys mostly making scripted movies or was documentary something that you understood in high school as something you would wanna explore? - I wish I did more documentary stuff in high school. A lot of it was kind of skit based in, you know, a lot of movies boofs or, you know, we were big fans of like trauma at the time. So it was a lot of gross out, like kind of really rude stuff and similar upbringing, I think. - Yeah, I bet. Yeah, I mean, it's like the cultural waves from like, trauma in, you know. - And you were under big, yeah, yeah. Traumia and Juliet was basically like happening when I was in high school, yeah, yeah. - So that, you know, with that and like, emo music, you know, you feel like the whole world is getting all of this stuff, but you realize that maybe it's kind of localized. - Yes. - Like within the tri-state area. And yeah, we made a, I think the first doc we made growing up in high school was like, Chris and I made a movie called like American Barbershop or like Portrait of an American Barbershop like now and then. - Wow. - And it was. - You were a wise man asking you and then. - Yeah, but it was really like, you know, I was on camera as like an investigative journalist trying to find like dirt. I basically tried to manufacture this conflict between two barbershops in town that didn't exist, you know. And we submitted it to some student festival of some kind and played it somewhere. But that was, I don't know, that was really cool. And I kind of wish that, that was like one of my favorite things looking back that we did and I kind of wish that we did more of that because like, I think that the documentary stuff ages a lot better than the fiction stuff a lot of the time because even if it's super stylized, you're still capturing something that's like very real, you know, at the time and it's like a nice portrait. - You still have access to all that stuff you made in high school? - Yes, I have everything on hard drives in my apartment. - Okay, so your archives will be profound. - I guess so. I mean, I kind of like part of me wishes that they could just get corrupted or something. I just like part of me just like wants to be released, you know? - Maybe we should explore that, John. - Yeah. - Were you the kind of person who venerated filmmakers like were you ripping off style when you were making those spoofs or the documentaries? - Yeah, we would make, we would make, you know. Yeah, we did like Blair Witch stuff, we did, you know, a lot of Kubrick stuff. We did, I don't know why, but like all of the movies, all the spoof movies we did just had my name in it. I think it was kind of like, it was a joke between us and like we did like a John Mark Orange full metal John. (laughing) - A joke, Robo John, yeah, it was just all like an excuse to wear stupid costumes and just like get really messy. - So were you frequently the star of these films? - Yeah, I was always the star. My like childhood friends Frank and Pat were just like, who were just neighborhood buds. We would just, I think they like to humanly, he like really like to humiliate me and like make me dress up in certain ways. It was just like, I became, I think I feel like I was the butt of a joke for most of it, but I just like, I just loved just, I was just such kind of a clown that I just, you know, whatever, I don't know, like making people laugh at that age, like that's always been just like a huge part of like what motivates me to do anything. There's something very addictive about, you know, right, you know, fulfilling about like making, getting a reaction out of anyone. And I think that like, I had that very early on as a kid and I kind of never let it go. - Something I'm really curious about with the work that you make now too, which is that it feels at least to me a little under-discuss that also what you're doing is you're not just capturing a film, creating these idea-based movies, but you are also performing. I mean, you are like a, you are the central performer in every piece of work that you do. Like do you see it in that way? Um, yeah, I think, you know, it is, it is a, it is like a, I want it to be like a complete art, you know, where I, um, I'm kind of like a lot of the artwork that I really like is, is the stuff where you can feel like the, like the kind of hand of the artist in a way. And I think especially with, with video art, you know, with, with like, Jonas Mika's or like George Coochar or, you know, a lot of, there's a lot of documentarians that are kind of slightly first person in a way. And there's something like, there's kind of an, an aura to that that I really enjoy watching it. Like you, you really feel like it's, it's coming from their perspective and, um, you know, or someone like Nick Broomfield, who is always his own sound guy or like, I mean, Frederick Weissman's always, his own sound guy too. Um, there's, there's something about like the energy of, of, of that creates in the room and how that affects like the film visually and emotionally that I really just, if it felt like, and it's also the, the easiest thing to do, if you're broke, that's what you do, you know, you just, you just have to be really acrobatic and perform all the roles yourself. Um, but I often just find that like the easiest, most intuitive way to do something is often the best. Um, cause I could be really lazy. And I, so that's how you know that this is the easiest way to do, like things in certain ways. Do you remember having any kind of aha moment when you were younger, seeing a work of art like that and thinking like, Oh, that, not just that that's something that you can do, but it's something that I would want to do. Hmm. I feel like it was more from the, kind of, more from like journalism in a way where I'm, I don't know, just like reading like Hunter Thompson in high school, uh, you know, reading like Hell's Angels and stuff like that. You're, you're just like, Oh, this is like a first person story that, you know, takes you. It's like, there's, and it's really tense because, you know, it's, it's like all, um, you know, and it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's embellished in a lot of ways, but I think there's like something really fun about that. Um, I don't know. It's, it's, it's hard to say. There's a lot of stuff in the soup that kind of affects the ways of seeing. Um, I'm trying to think of another like real memoir type thing. It's a good example, though, because I'm curious how much of you, what you think you're doing is journalism. Like when I went to journalism school, and we studied the Hell's Angels piece in journalism, in literary journalism class, and like, you know, it was interesting to get emotionally attached to that piece, but then also much of the lesson of it was sort of like, don't do this. Why? Because it doesn't really follow the orthodoxy of journalistic practice, you know, it kind of breaks convention. And I think that there's maybe, you can tell me if I'm wrong about this, but like somewhat of a similar divide in terms of documentary that there are like many different kinds of approaches, but there are some that are sort of like more removed. There are others that are more personal and sort of like you can feel someone either holding the camera or standing right next to the camera. And I don't know how much you thought. Maybe that's just influenced you so much that the first person felt like the only way to go. Yeah, I just, it felt like, you know, I'm not really much of a gamer, but I can, I can imagine that, I mean, that this kind of perspective is like a, I think we, we, we like have this, like it makes sense to like see things from that way. And it almost feels like a first person shooter, like in certain ways, when you're, when you're doing that. But so, I don't know. Yeah, it just made sense to like kind of invert whatever rules I thought there were. It's like, you know, everything I, you know, I worked on commercial stuff for a while in my 20s and all the stuff that they told you not to do. I just like really, I wanted to do in my own work, like really oddly composed things or, you know, things that I was supposed to keep out of the frame. And yeah, I don't know. I think that it can be really motivating to, to like, to kind of like, say, like fuck you to the people that are telling, or like instructing you to do XYZ, you know, and just like try to find your voice in there. I mean, I get why people would tell you not to do 100 or Thompson in school because I feel like there are a lot of imitators out there that, you know, and you may get caught up, like just trying to imitate this thing instead of finding your own voice, you know. Yeah, there's, I think there's going to be even other layer, which is sort of like trying to protect people from their own lack of talent, which is a complicated thing too, where if you're attempting to trailblaze, but lack the skills to accomplish that, that that's maybe more decent than you realize when you're 19. Yeah, yeah. I'm curious for you though, do you, did you feel like you, since you worked on commercial stuff, like always knew you wanted to be an artist, did you have a moment when you said, I'm going, this is what I'm going to do, you know, kind of come what may financially personally, no matter what. I think I was just always, you know, I never really wanted to wear a suit or anything. I think it was, I think just all the art that I consumed just made me want to, I don't know, just just like try to investigate like more existential things in life that that aren't really covered the way that I was hoping that they would be covered. I don't know, I feel like I'm being vague, but yeah, I feel like I didn't, it's also for lack of, you know, I didn't really have any other skills. That would, that would be marketable, I think, or, you know, I think that's why I worked as an editor for so long. I mean, and I love to do all of it, but yeah, I just, I read a lot about artists in my 20s, you know, and just like, red books by like different famous artists or like about what the art world is like. And I just, I always thought artists were these like got like figures that, you know, we're impenetrable or, you know, like you, you couldn't understand them or something, but everyone's just like a person, you know, just like a real person. It's like you read the like war hall diary thing, you know, when he's talking to like M or like all the first letter name people, it's just like, oh, this is just like a normal person, you know, I feel it feels like contemporary or, you know, like a friend could have written something like this. And it kind of demystifying like the idea of the artist was kind of important because it made it feel like I could be one in a way. In terms of the actual structure and style of the work that you were doing, like how, how much happened before the TV series? Like how were you making the work? How are you distributing it? How did people become aware of it? I was, I started making how to movies probably in 2011 or so. And I would just kind of hit export the moment I was done with it. And then basically publish it straight to Vimeo. And yeah, I didn't promote it or anything. I would just, I just wanted to like get it out of my system. And, you know, I was like really self-conscious about my written word and the way my voice sounded and stuff. So I just, I wanted to confront everything and just make a public and just put it out there. And, you know, if people liked it, then cool. If not, then I would learn the hard way that it wasn't like worth anything. Or, you know, that people wouldn't want to watch it. But yeah, I would, and then people seemed to, a couple of people seemed to like it at first. So I just kept doing it. But yeah, I, I'm never, you know, I just, every project came from somewhere like internal that I was like trying to work through something. Whether, yeah, it was like bedbugs or like regret. I don't know. There's like, there's a lot of stuff. I try not to like think about the viewer that much because, you know, I, I don't know what a viewer is. I don't know what like a viewer means to like different people. I feel like for something like this, I don't know. Like, what is a viewer? It's like this, a viewer like, that's complicated for me as well. Is this, is this some, is a viewer like a number? Is it a dollar amount? Is a viewer someone who you're affecting like positively in like an emotional way? Yeah. I've given this some thought about a lot of filmmakers and artists who came up at a time where their work sort of like germinated online. And then your relationship, you have sort of like an immediate connectivity because you have maybe a comment section. but you also have like a complete lack of emotional face-to-face experience. And you were saying before we started talking on Mike, like you've been doing screenings and people are coming out and seeing it, maybe that you've made. And that's different from, forget about Vimeo, like even putting a show on a streaming service. Yeah, totally. Yeah, like this kind of, yeah, like this, there's, I knew that people are watching the show, but yeah, it's been so like crazy to see the physical manifestation of that. Yeah, and I feel like the work on the show and the film for me is so interesting, because I feel like it's so generous and curious. And I feel like that's a very hard thing to accomplish, and I'm kind of curious, like so when you were making those things and uploading them to Vimeo in 2011, like was that always the point of view, did you have to like train yourself to figure out what your style was, was it not intellectualized at all? I think it was, I think I wanted to start making like fake tutorials just because I just found the idea of an expert really funny, and just the confidence that anyone has when like instructing you to do something. So yeah, I don't know, I, I feel like, I don't know, I forget where you were going with this. I guess that it get maybe more emotional, because the premise is very, feels like it's, it's got stick attached to it, but then the show is always so surprising to me. Yeah, I mean, I, I think, yeah, I just, I wanted to, I wanted to kind of like let the work evolve, but like, yeah, I had to find the voice, it took me four or five movies in this style to like use a microphone and like interview people, like that was kind of a late thing to the game, you know, when you, when you look at everything together, and it was about, yeah, getting over that fear of talking to people and kind of like exposing, like my, like my, like, yeah, exposing, like my thoughts and like my, you know, politics, whatever, you know, and, and, and, and getting over just like approaching people in public to talk to them, that was all part of it. But I also feel like I can be a real cynic in a lot of ways. And I think that the work is, is a way for me to kind of like suppress a lot of, a lot of kind of like, like kind of criticism that I, like, that I, that I live with, you know, and I, I just want to like live in this world where like, every, everything is like accepted and like everything is like all at the same level of normal in a certain way. And I'm challenging like my own prejudices, I think, like at the same time, like as, as I'm asking the viewer to, you know, do you, I think about this all the time when I'm watching what you make that New York is very special in a way, as like the breeding ground for a lot of the work, because people are just so open to talk. Like all, yeah, I'm, you know, we're from New York, I lived in New York City for 10 years, like I do that, that experience of like, a lot of people certainly like have their air pods in and their head down and they're going to their job. But if you just walk into any store, people are just like, what's up, man? Yeah. And it's very different from other cities I find. And I don't know how much you like intellectualize that or thought about that as you started making the work or just like thought, well, this is open terrain here in a way that I might not have elsewhere. Well, yeah. I mean, I think it's, you know, I kind of respond in New York at the beginning of every, you know, every film just because I feel like I, like, having grown up in and around. I like understand the rules and I know like when it's, you know, like when it's safe to cross the street, you know, like very basic stuff and, uh, and I think that like, I understand what the kind of tolerance level for for something like a camera is in, um, in New York. And but people don't usually have like, uh, like, uh, an idea of what you're doing when you walk into the store with a camera like that, like, if you walk in with like a cell phone like this, people think it, you're like an auditor or like, you know, you're, you're trying, it's something incriminating. Mm-hmm. And I think like having a piece of technology that is like a little unfamiliar is, is helpful to begin with. I think that's why I shot on, you know, a tiny, like, handicap for so long because it, you know, people just don't think that your people don't take you seriously. Which is deep professional. Yeah. Which is really helpful. Yeah. Um, but, you know, to me, a doc, a doc should just look however it looks. It doesn't matter what you shoot it on, um, but, um, yeah, so I think that, that helps. Um, I think that's what I'm talking about and I think that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. I think that's what I'm talking about, that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. In the film. Yeah. There is like, always this willingness to stop and be a little bit more open than I maybe I normally would be. So how do you think about that? Right. I mean, I spent like a year and a half with Jack, you know, just from that chance encounter at a liquor store. That was like a block away from my house. Um, I think you can kind of, I got a sense from him that he had a lot of gas in the tank. And he just like, I mean, he was just super optimistic. And, um, I think I was like spiraling in this self doubt, uh, after all the rejections from trying to get financing for the film. And, you know, he was just really buoyant and no matter what happened to him, he was all about the art. And I, I found that like, um, yeah, I was on a mission to, to get, to, to get, to get a ringer. Yeah. You know, a musician that like was, um, willing to talk to me and, did you really, you felt you were on the hunt for a very specific kind of person? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was, there's a lot that we don't include in the movie, um, from that search, you know, like, I try to go to like a Bonnie rate concert and talk to her, uh, and I was denied at the door. I was allowed to film inside and then, uh, I ended up talking to this guy. I, in the lobby who was tabling, trying to spread awareness about, uh, the overpopulation of jellyfish, uh, on the Jersey Shore, like in these man-made lagoons. And then I ended up spending a lot of time with him, um, and, you know, I guess these, it, it became about overdevelopment, you know, because like, these new, man, Mcmatchins, like, on the Jersey Shore have these like plastic jet ski docks that the jellyfish love to pot, we kind of like mate on, you know, and that's becoming a huge issue and don't swim anymore. But I ended up only using the names of funny names of boats, you know, that was filming from, like, hanging out with him in the movie. And, uh, I think there was like one kind of party of a bunch of people that are like staring at me. And they're, they're all waving because I have a camera, but then after they're waving for a while, one of them is just like, what is this? And I kind of cut out there because I didn't know what it was. Yeah. Do your subjects ask that question too, like when you're spending a lot of time with them, do they say, well, what is, yes, sometimes I'll spend two or three days with someone and they'll, at the end, they'll be like, what is this, what is this for? Like, where is this going? Do you think, I mean, what do you think that says about those people? Like, are they lonely? Does people like to be the subject of something? Yeah. I think some people have just been waiting to like have a camera pointed at them in certain ways. I mean, Jack, I think is one example, but, um, yeah, that's why I just don't, I, I give like, I give as much context as I can to like upfront if they're, if they're curious, it's like a making this movie about concrete. I know that you're a tattoo preservation, uh, company, but there's something about historical preservation in this movie, you know, and, um, this might have something to do with it, but I'm in the moment, right, I mean, well, right now, I'm interested in watching you, um, taxidermy, like human skin, you know, and they're like, they don't really care because they just want, they're, they want to promote something or they're like an exhibitionist of some stripe. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I feel like there's a, there's almost two tracks of people that you find that they're people who are sort of like in a niche business and they see an opportunity to elevate their business because someone is filming them and then there's the other person that is sort of like almost like unaware of the idea of even promoting oneself. I mean, my favorite, one of my favorite sequences in, in the film is, um, you're just sitting with the two men working on building the sort of like deck platform, you know, and their curiosity, which I don't know where, is that in Jersey? I don't know where that is. so long island to me, those two guys. - That was Ohio. - Ohio. - Yeah. - But just that, like, the comfort that you guys have with each other, just talking about what it is that you're doing, and then your decision to put that in, I just love that. - Yeah, that was a really long day that, like, I initially, yeah, it was a father and son company called Grubmud, and they were repairing a pool deck that had been hit by a tree after a bad storm. And, but I went because the son has, like, we found him on YouTube, he has a YouTube channel where he basically, he finds former addicts, or active addicts, and teaches them how to pour concrete and hires them to try to get them clean, 'cause he used to be a addict himself. And, you know, there was, yeah, and there was some other stuff that was interesting, but I thought that was what was going to be the end for that scene. But then, you know, the most valuable part is, like, this tiny little section, you know, where he was just talking about cyclical renewal of, and it kind of planned obsolescence as it applies to concrete. And, like, you know, and the greater kind of material world. - At what point did you decide to make the struggle to make the movie a part of the movie? - I unlocked the meta-components maybe like a year, and I was shooting this movie for about a year and threw out almost all of it, just because I was getting the stuff that you think of at first, you know? I was just like, oh, well, there's this building over here. This is a famous concrete structure. - Wrote history. - Yeah, just like, just kind of the first draft. And is that common for you to shoot a lot and throw a lot out? - Yeah, I think you kind of, you have this idea to begin with, and then you try to do that, and then the product, you know, the finished product ends up being this part that you thought was like a little throwaway part of your whole adventure. And it ends up becoming the thing that feels like, you feel the most connected to, and it has like, I don't know, the most like real emotion in it, because you couldn't have written it, like the, yeah, so like a year in, I was like, okay, I'm done filming the sidewalk for right now, and then just like, just trying to watch potholes grow, I'm going to, and like, you know, 'cause we were pitching for about a year also, and I was just like casually doing stuff just to film my time. But yeah, at that certain point, I was like, why am I asking for like a million dollars to go to Ohio? Like I'm just gonna go to Ohio, and just like film the oldest concrete street, and just see what's there. You know, we had bigger ambitions for like, I don't know, like different, going to different parts of the world, but I just realized that like, keeping it at a human scale was like, probably for the benefit of the film. And then, yeah, and then about a year, and I just like looked through all my old footage, I found this like hallmark stuff that I had shot, you know, and like some other stuff, and I was like, okay, this is now I'm reframing the way I think of everything, and I'm just gonna kind of try to see if this helps me structurally, and it did. - It feels a little bit like an important document in this moment in history of documentary making. This does feel like we're, it seems like a challenging period of time, because why do you say that? - Well, having worked on some of them in the past, like much of what is desired is authorized celebrity or, you know, renowned person focused and/or true crime. - Yeah. - And that kind of drives a lot of the business, and then anything that is not that necessitates convincing. I feel like the movie is a kind of about trying to convince people of an idea, even though maybe the person with the idea isn't totally sure what the idea is yet. - I mean, if I asked you for a million dollars to, I'm just like, I'm gonna go hang outside of a high school for three months and walk around. - That sounds dangerous. - You know, do you have a million dollars, you know? - No, you would probably say that. - I'm a fan of your work, so, you know. - But it's like, you know, it's the exploration that's like part of it. I don't know. I understand why it was tough in a way, but I feel like the documentary industry right now is really kind of strange, because yeah, a lot of it is just retelling stories that have already happened. And I think, like in, you know, a lot of my favorite documentary is, you know, from the like 60s through the 90s, I don't know, kind of a long period, but the, you know, that was before, I think, we started to kind of like, kind of excavate all these old stories, you know. It's like, we were still more interested in like, I think documentaries back then were traded like portrait painters and they, it was like an honor to be shot by certain documentarians in this way, where now a documentary is like, usually like a gotcha thing, or, you know, it's something that like, people are scared of in certain ways. - It was also just, I didn't seem at all like, a commercial enterprise back then. - Yeah, just people did it. There were odd lengths, you know. Like you have the, like the mazes, like Panabaker, you have all of these, like, people, like, making these incredible portraits and, you know. - And there's 52 minutes or they're four hours long. - Yeah, like less blank, you just like, and it's like, it's super awkward lengths, but then, but, you know, you, you were capturing something that was happening then, and was, you know, fleeting, and that was like, that's so much more valuable to us now, you know, than like, them making, I don't know, it wouldn't even, I don't even think Ben and their head to make like a, like a Bob Dylan documentary, you know, like the way that we do now. - Yeah. - But, yeah, I think that we, I think that the industry needs to redirect their attention to, like actually, like, nurturing people that are trying to, you know, follow a story that's actually happening. And, you know, whether or not it, it resolves into something. It's okay if it's not this, like, blockbuster. But, I don't know. Like. - It dovetails a little bit with where you're at. - Yeah. - With the movie too, because you got the movie made, and then you released the movie in one movie theater, and then it did well. - Yeah. - And now it'll come into more movie theaters and they're like, it is a commercial enterprise for you to make a movie and then release it. - Yeah, I know. I have this very complicated relationship with the industry, I'm trying to court. You know, it is, but, you know, I think that, like, if you're making a Billie Eilish doc, you know, I watched that on the plane right here. You know, the James Cameron one. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And, you know, it's funny, but, you know, there's like a million cameras every angle of everything you could possibly ask for. But, and yes, I mean, like that costs money, and I get how, you know, you could pitch something like that. But, I think it's, I also don't really think that we should be trying to be in the industry as documentarians, you know, in a way. Like, I think it's cool to do the thing at whatever price point you can, like, get away with and just make it to make it. 'Cause I think that a lesson for me with this project is like something, I thought I had internalized a while ago, but I forgot was like, you shouldn't ask for permission. You just need to do it. Like, just, just, just do it. Like, don't, like, why am I asking all of these suits for permission to do this thing that comes so naturally to me and the materials out there, everything exists. I don't need to, I don't need to rent a ton of gear or like, you know, get a trailer for a bunch of, you know, actors or something. - Well, you've reminded me of something that I wanted to ask you about, which is the Kim Kardashian dinner sequence in your movie, which is like, speaking of not asking for permission, that feels like a moment where maybe you do not-- - I was invited. That was a real, let the right one in kind of moment. - Yeah, I mean, it's wonderful that you were in the room for that and that you were a part of that experience. Not that you don't belong, but I suspect maybe you didn't have a ton of peers. - Yeah, that was, I think like Tim Robinson and Sam Richardson where, you know, I ended up spending a lot of time with. - Yeah, but-- - But even the choice to say like, I'm gonna take my camera out and I'm actually gonna film in here and this is maybe like any illicit act, but it feels important. - Yeah, I still, yeah, that was a very strange environment. I mean, I didn't have my real camera. I just had like, like in that scene, like, let's say Kim, I'm like this far and I'm just like this. you know. And no one is saying put that down. No, no one's at anything. But I think that's because, you know, because in the raw footage that I had, there was some evidence of other people, I think from the GQ team that were filming it. But I haven't seen any of that material. I don't know where that stuff goes. Right. And I was just like this is a very rare environment. I don't know what else to do. These speeches are uninspiring to me. I'm just going to take out my camera. And, you know, I'd never seen a like an unedited shot of the Kardashians before. So I was just like, I just want to roll on this room for six minutes. And, you know, just like, try to keep as much of it uncut within the film as possible because it is kind of freakish to see such a naked, I think, image of these, like, Allordie and like, all these other people that are like at the table, like, Dwayne Wade. It was like, you were showing us a secret. That was how it felt. You know what I mean? But it was a, it was like a public event. I mean, like, public, I mean, you can like, no, it was a known event. But, yeah, it was like a known, but no one pays attention that stuff. Yeah. I know there's just very, it's weird because it feels like we have more access to everything than we ever have before. And yet, people know. And I think that this is kind of like a corrupting idea in some ways, but people know that there is something happening in a room that you're not allowed to go into. Yes. Yeah. There's a bit of Bohemian growth kind of like stuff to it, where it's like, what are we celebrating here? This, it's like, him Kardashian was like man of the year. But it's like, so we were, they were giving speeches as if she was a man, but also like a girl boss. It was like very, it was very like confused. And, you know, the guy who is the editor of GQ at the time, I think his name is like, Will Welch. I know, Will. I do. Yeah. Well, he's not the editor anymore. He's not. Yeah. He, well, yeah. So he like arranged this seating arrangement. And I'm just like, what is this like that? He knows, he knows, he knew that I like film stuff. You know, and it's like, is this the shot you wanted? You know, you'll have to ask him. I don't know. I hope he's all, yeah, I'm really a greener pastor. Yeah. I am, I'm wondering if you feel like you're working in like a, a new tradition, because it does feel like there's a bunch of people, a lot of people, many of whom are your friends, you know, like Lance was in here yesterday, you know, I know you obviously worked with Nathan on the series and, you know, the safeties. And there's a whole cohort of like-minded people who kind of pivot between documentary and feature and, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not sure if it's a movement, but it feels like it is something. And I'm trying, I've been trying to figure that out just my own anthropological interests. Like, what do you make of it? Yeah, it's harder. I mean, it's easier maybe in, in hindsight, to like, to define a movement in certain ways. But when you're in the middle of it, it just, it just feels like you're just kind of in this river of just like kind of on like a lazy river with like a bunch of other like people doing similar kind of stuff. And you know, we all like influence each other, I think in ways. I think it's rad. I think it's cool that like that kind of experimental nonfiction is having a moment, you know, and I hope it kind of continues to, because I feel like we've gone so far in the other direction. I think like so many people recognize this with like, you know, you're kind of bloated blockbuster type things. I mean, they've always been around, but I think it's becoming like, like, especially kind of meaningless, like a lot of the work that's that, you know, people are making right now. So, you know, the more I think attention and I think resources that can be given to people actually like thinking deeply about what they're doing, you know, I think that's better. I don't know. And yeah, I like all the people that, you know, I consider peers. Okay. You coined the movement right now. What's it called? What? Oh, I don't know. Whatever it is, you're a part of I can't not just do it. If you don't do it, I'll have to do it. And then you're going to have some shitty movement name that came from some guy who's not in it. Yeah. This happens all the time, John. It's not going to be a core. Yeah. I don't know. Something, something nonfiction. People get really touchy about label stuff. Yeah. Good. I'm going to do it then. I'll do it as soon as you leave. Do you know what you're doing next? Yes. Would you like to know what it is? I'm curious. Yeah. Yeah. I'm working on to I'm as I'm doing this press stuff right now. I'm currently shooting to well, shooting one feature and then kind of producing another one and then also getting ready to I think make a new show. Wow. So you're busy. Yeah. It's been crazy. All nonfiction. Yeah. Whatever you want to call it. Okay. Well, I mean, that's the last piece that I'll go to is not whether or not. I don't know if you're going to make a transition. But I feel that your work doesn't really do the blurring that a lot of some of your contemporaries are experimenting with. I just don't I just I don't know. I I like I appreciate experimenting like with with with like actors and nonfiction stuff and all that. But like I feel like a lot more of a purist in a lot of ways. I just like my the high that I get is like is getting something that's like actually real. You know, like even if I'm doing a bit of puppeteering with like the chronology of like how things break down, you know, or you know, come out. But I don't know. Yeah, I forget what you're saying about. Are you happy right now with how everything's going? Yeah. I think everything's cool. I don't know. I I can't believe I'm here. I can't believe that like I that the movie is selling out like all over the world right now. It's it's crazy. But I think that I think it it's evidence of hunger for, you know, something that's like maybe a bit more plainly worded something that like is actually saying exactly what's happening right now instead of trying to dress it up. John me end of episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen? Oh, um, and I guess it was not the Billy Eilish dog. No, not the Billy Eilish dog. One night only. No way. Yeah. Oh my god. Tell me about your thoughts about that. I like that movie. I thought it was cool. But what if you like it? You are you're a New Yorker. I was capturing the end times as well. I was shouting after it because I was like I was shouting to my girlfriend. I was just like this movie is incredible. Well, what did you love? I just I think it's a great New York movie. I think there's like a I love like I love these like poppy kind of romcom movies that that that like really are like really literalist about like the geography of New York and like do it really well. Even though they they bought a bunch of stuff in that movie, but they like they try. And I don't know. I just I I love all the cameos in it. Just I love any I love a movie like that that's like so of the moment, you know, it's got like everyone like all the people in their prime just like right in one spot. And it's got this kind of strange side, you know, kind of sci-fi element to it. And it doesn't entirely make sense. But nothing matter, you know, it doesn't really matter. I don't know. I just had a great time. I just I I feel like movies like that are are kind of like I I feel like they age really well. It's kind of like Nick and Nora's infinite playlist. Like they reminded me of that movie where I'm just like you're going from here to there and like thank god you're like capturing all of this stuff. It's true. I thought of 200 cigarettes as well. Do you see that? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Just like that. This is I mean, it's a real Hollywood video movie. So it's from a patreon video. Well done. Hey, um, thank you for doing this, John. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for asking. Okay, thanks to John Wilson. Thanks to Jack Sanders, our producer for his work on today's episode. Thanks to Luke's cab enough for production support. So later this week, we're drafting baseball movies. Yes. And then after that, we're talking about digger on the following episode three episodes this week. Yes. Are you ready for the digger episode? Do you feel ready? I feel half ready. I mean, you and I have not talked about it. We've not said a word to each other and I have not shared any thoughts. And I am I have a lot of things that I want to discuss with you. I've also had like a lot of other people asking me about it. Yes, me as well. This is the most this is the most what did you think movie I've gotten this year other than the Odyssey. So I'm excited for that. I think I've been doing a little bit of prep. I'm going to do a little more tonight after I do my baseball prep in between recordings that I'm doing here. And I emotionally am very ready. Do you are you not ready? Here's the thing, it is, we should have one of those like, you know, focus group like monitor things of me hitting every day where I am on it, because I don't know that I'm fixed yet, which is unusual for me. That's fascinating. Yeah. I know exactly where I stand. Okay. But. Congratulations. Is it somewhere interesting? That's just me. I mean, you and everyone else will find out and agree or disagree. Okay. But I really do look forward to the discussion. Yeah. And I hope, I don't know what I hope about that movie, but I look forward to the discussion. And I'll leave it there and we'll see you then. [BLANK_AUDIO]